Question about crosses and vampires

[darthauthor]

Question,

In Rifts Earth vampires are repelled by crosses. So character class carries a cross in their equipment.

So my question is, "Why don't people just get a tattoo of a cross or other religous symbol on their neck?"

Do they not have tattoos in Rifts Earth?

Would a tattoo of a cross not work?

Or is it just that no body thought of it and the people who make and sell crosses started a rumor that it does not work?

[Grazzik]

See WB1r pg 75. The answer is in bold.

[Fenris2020]

Some things have been retconned for some reason, so no that wouldn't work; along with a few other anti-vampire tactics that used to be effective.

[ShadowLogan]

Do they not have tattoos in Rifts Earth?

Yes they have tattoos on Rifts Earth. Off hand I forget where they are mentioned, but we know they are present given things like Magic Tattoos which IIRC also alude to regular tattoos (and if you are a race that can't get Atlantean Magic Tattoos the result is a regular tattoo).

[Blackwater Sniper]

Whether or not crosses are useful against vampires on Rifts Earth, I would rule there has to be an actual belief in The Cross and what it stands for, not merely showing a cross-like symbol.

[Killer Cyborg]

Whether or not crosses are useful against vampires on Rifts Earth, I would rule there has to be an actual belief in The Cross and what it stands for, not merely showing a cross-like symbol.

Cool.

Why?

[Blackwater Sniper]

Whether or not crosses are useful against vampires on Rifts Earth, I would rule there has to be an actual belief in The Cross and what it stands for, not merely showing a cross-like symbol.

Cool.

Why?

Religion, as we know it today, is not a big part of Rifts Earth.

There are some theorists who believe a simple cross has no effect, but it must be a Crucifix instead. The Crucifix has the image of Jesus while a cross is just a cross and not necessarily Christian in nature. The Crucifix symbolizes the power over death while vampires, being undead, are an anathema to the life/death cycle.

That being said, I would rule that any Holy Artifact symbolizing “Life” in the hands of a believer of that Artifact would be as equally effective against vampires. As to why the person must believe in the physical symbol, it’s just a story plot otherwise anyone could grab the closest religious symbol and march off to hunt the supernatural.

Off the top of my head, here’s a couple examples of ‘monster hunters’ in action:

This scene from “The Mummy” (1999) with Brendon Fraser comes to mind; Beni Meets the Mummy. Beni goes through a number of religious symbols and native chants before accidentally finding the right combination.

In “Constantine” (2005) with Keanu Reeves, Constantine cycles through various symbols to know what kind of demon he’s dealing with.

Fans of “Supernatural” (2005-2020) will remember many times when Sam and Dean Winchester used non-Christian methods to thwart creatures; many of those times Dean, the less studious of the two, would fumble through the ritual for our humorous benefit.

[Aermas]

This scene from “The Mummy” (1999) with Brendon Fraser comes to mind; Beni Meets the Mummy. Beni goes through a number of religious symbols and native chants before accidentally finding the right combination.

Beni wasn't saved by divine intervention. He just b3gged in ancient Hebrew & the Imotep recognized it & decided he had a useful idiot

[Library Ogre]

Consider: It cannot be an aspect of faith that makes crosses work against vampires in Rifts, because there's no god attached to that symbol in Rifts; there's tons of other gods out there, giving their priests all sorts of powers, but I think the only power you see attached to a cross-based religion is a ritual of exorcism.

[Grazzik]

WB1r pg 73 specifically states that ANY three dimensional holy symbol of a God of Light, especially a cross but can be any symbol, works against a vampire. Belief in the faith is not required. The text specifically says the symbol itself has the power over the undead. Effects are listed.

[Library Ogre]

Arguably, in an infinite megaverse, all things are symbols of a god of light, somewhere.

[Aermas]

Maybe Anhks are the real OG anti vampire symbol because of Thoth, but North America has more crosses than anhks but the shape is close enough it counts?

[Grazzik]

Arguably, in an infinite megaverse, all things are symbols of a god of light, somewhere.

All things? Certainly, my lunch consisting of a ham and swiss sandwich has holey cheese to keep those vamps at bay... haha!

Now, I'm no theologian and really have little interest in such high falutin game play, but here my two credits...

Just because the Megaverse may be infinite (or at least an incredibly large set of universes/dimensions, both infinite and finite), it doesn't mean beings such as gods, god-like AIs, and related ilk are also infinite. I'd argue their very multidimensional nature may preclude them from being infinite, as their essence (which is just concentrated PPE as per D&G pg 85) is usually predicated on one or more of a finite number of discrete aspects of nature or reality, i.e. Destroyer of Worlds, Goddess of Lightly Buttered Toast, God of Whoopie Cushions. Otherwise, you'd end up with infinite pantheons of an infinite number of gods, each with an infinite number of gods of war that vary by infinitesimally small degrees. Which is just too unwieldy to play, even for Rifts. We do have instances of various gods of War, but ordinarily described as one per pantheon. So even if you as a GM ascribe to infinite gods in a pantheon, the number of pantheons may be finite. Though this is still unwieldy. In canon, we have examples of single gods having followers across the megaverse and different visages for each set of followers, which supports the idea that the number of gods is less than infinite. It helps to keep PCs from tripping over gods and goddesses all over the place. Also, if the number of gods are finite, then their given holy symbols would also be finite... though, arguably, may indeed be whoopie cushions and toasted ham and cheese sandwiches. In the absence of any specifics in the books, my house rule is to simply keep the number and nature of gods in a game within reason so that gameplay is not unduly impacted.

Back to vampires... Whether symbols belong to a "God of Light" generally comes down to the god's alignment (CB2 pg 7), as the alignment is the primary (but not sole) determinant of the god of light designation. However, since the descriptions of some of these beings seem to suggest they may associate with beings with evil alignments from time to time, not to mention how odd it would be for a god-like being to perceive moral action the same way as an alignment-bound mortal, the determination of whether such a being is a god of light would need to be made on a case by case basis by the GM. As such, if a player were to say a thermos was a holy symbol of the God of Heated Beverages, I'd argue that a heated beverage, while comforting on a winter's night may scald on a summer's day. Therefore, the god the thermos represents is neither good nor evil and, at best, unprincipled and probably unaligned with any pantheon. So sayeth the GM... move on. Other GMs may have more nuanced views.

Now back to my lunch...

[Library Ogre]

It's the same infinite monkeys question as always; an arbitrarily large number of monkeys will, over an arbitrarily large amount of time, write the entirety of the Palladium Books Catalog. While the gods themselves may not be infinite, the possible societies worshiping them are, and the varying symbols they might associate with the various gods are likewise also infinite... after all, you can't be a Green Lantern if your species has no concept of color, but you can pledge

"In loudest din or hush profound,
My ears catch evil's slightest sound.
Let those who toll out evil's knell
Beware my power, the F-Sharp Bell!"

[Grazzik]

It's the same infinite monkeys question as always; an arbitrarily large number of monkeys will, over an arbitrarily large amount of time, write the entirety of the Palladium Books Catalog. While the gods themselves may not be infinite, the possible societies worshiping them are, and the varying symbols they might associate with the various gods are likewise also infinite... after all, you can't be a Green Lantern if your species has no concept of color, but you can pledge

"In loudest din or hush profound,
My ears catch evil's slightest sound.
Let those who toll out evil's knell
Beware my power, the F-Sharp Bell!"

Good one

Though, I wish those monkeys would get cracking... my arbitrarily large amount of time for some titles is clearly more than 30 years, but definitely not more than 50 years!

[Prysus]

Whether or not crosses are useful against vampires on Rifts Earth, I would rule there has to be an actual belief in The Cross and what it stands for, not merely showing a cross-like symbol.

Cool.

Why?

Greetings and Salutations. Well, I'll say I tend to rule similarly in my campaigns. This was based on something from BtS1.

Note: I'll preface the remainder by I know that other books tend to show the warding as an effect of the symbol itself, and even the shadow of the symbol can impact a vampire in other books.

The empathic nature of the creature makes them uniquely vulnerable to a human's intense belief in a good, protective, all powerful god. Thus, the person can project a psychic energy that hurts and repulses the vampire when a crucifix or similar, powerful religious icon is used to ward off the hell spawned evil. The only condition is that the human must truly believe in that god and in the power of the icon. Without belief there is no psychic force and the symbol is worthless.

Being that it's the belief of the person, whether or not the god has any god in that universe attached to the symbol is irrelevant (addressing comments such as: It cannot be an aspect of faith that makes crosses work against vampires in Rifts, because there's no god attached to that symbol in Rifts).

Now, what does "truly believes" mean to someone? For me, I tend to limit this to a member of an actual religious O.C.C. (in Palladium Fantasy, there's an actual "Clergy" category). That's not a perfect category, but it's close enough. Keep in mind, that you also have to believe the symbol will protect you. So someone who worships Crom (from Conan) probably doesn't believe Crom is actually going to help them, so it wouldn't help. Similar with Beni from the Mummy. He didn't really believe, so no protection.

In my games, I had something like the Vampire Kingdoms designed for one of my settings (Note: I don't actually play Rifts). There, the Vampires did NOT go into churches or holy sights. They COULD, they just did NOT. The reason for this is the Vampires decided they wanted to give people a place of refuge, a place they'd think is safe. However, because the humans believed the building and/or symbols worked, the humans tended to view it more like a fact/science rather than belief in a god, and because it's a fact it's just something people tended to turn to in times of crisis without the same conviction of a true believer. This also made people's habits a bit predictable when they tried to hide from Vampires (hide in a church, because the Vampires can't get you there). With this in mind, Vampires only went onto holy ground when they had to (something super important was in that church, and they didn't have time to play around), usually with the plan to kill everyone there. This would cause panic among the humans huddled there, and then you might get something like a Preacher (Fire and Brimstone) who comes along and kills a bunch of Vamps who could try to teach any survivors the difference between a symbol and faith.

Anyways, just some thoughts. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Arguably, in an infinite megaverse, all things are symbols of a god of light, somewhere.

There are several varities of Earth Gods and Goddess; if your church decides the earth itself is your Holy Symbol, would every demon/vampire on earth vunerable to Holy Symbols go up in flames?

[Killer Cyborg]

Arguably, in an infinite megaverse, all things are symbols of a god of light, somewhere.

There are several varities of Earth Gods and Goddess; if your church decides the earth itself is your Holy Symbol, would every demon/vampire on earth vunerable to Holy Symbols go up in flames?

Hm.
I don't think the Earth itself could BE a holy symbol; it's already a thing, not symbolic of anything.
A specific drawing or icon of the Earth could be a holy symbol, but the Earth itself would be what the symbol represented, not the symbol itself.

[Aermas]

Arguably, in an infinite megaverse, all things are symbols of a god of light, somewhere.

There are several varities of Earth Gods and Goddess; if your church decides the earth itself is your Holy Symbol, would every demon/vampire on earth vunerable to Holy Symbols go up in flames?

The Earth isn't a symbol, it's a totality.

[Wise_Owl]

Back in the day I used to write the cross thing like this;

Crosses Repelled vampires not for any religious reasons, but because they were a symbol related to the Great Old Ones and specifically the elemental affixations from which the Vampires Intelligence rose. Lesser Vampires, possessing parasitic fragments of these oh lessest of alien intelligence, are repelled because of this mystical association. Christianity in this view adopted the cross not merely for the obvious reasons, but because of it's historical usage(perhaps 8th century Rome had a serious vampire problem...)

Thiis stores the 'religious faith' thing back to Priests, whom are not living in some sort of soliphist universe but one in which they actually channel power.

Religion in Rifts always becomes... messy and what I define within my own games would never ever be 'cannon'(never gonna get officially stated cyber-Jesus....)

[narcissus]

A bit of an aside, but I was running a campaign where the players were Demigods. I allowed them to make their own holy water. I mean, if a priest can do it, the half-child of a god should be able to. In that context, I would have also allowed a symbol of their parents' god or pantheon to repel vamps.