I tried, I really tried.

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taalismn
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Re: I tried, I really tried.

Unread post by taalismn »

My rule of thumb is you gotta have some PPE or ISP to use a magic item.
TW 'bots purpose-built and empowered by magic can only use what's been built into them and cannot casually pick up TW/magic items(except in the most basic way, like using that enchanted war-mace as a blunt instrument) unless specifically modified to use them. Transferred Intelligences and possessing entities(or those like them) CAN, however.
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Re: I tried, I really tried.

Unread post by Grazzik »

Granted that scrolls and some magical items are imbued with the necessary PPE, but this does not mean they can be used by all and sundry. Cyborgs, full or partial, can't use TW items for example (RUE pg 47).

I would presume that, particularly without any exotic life essence stuff, all the man-made materials and circuitry of a robot has the same devastating effect on using magic as bionics.

However, ignoring that...

Book of Magic, pg 9, emphasis added
Magic takes many forms. One must never forget that so-called "magic" energy is a force of nature the same as fire, electricity, microwaves, and nuclear energy, among others. As such, it is drawn upon by living creatures, channeled, shaped and used in whatever way that individual desires. Thus, it can be used for good or evil. To build or destroy.


SB1r, pg 14, emphasis added
A.l.s and N.l.s do not register as a living presence, they cannot be affected by psionics, have no biological aura, no P.P.E. or I.S.P., or any other aspect attributed to organic life.

... Like the ability to use magic.

Pretty definitive. We could stop there, but it is already really late so let's go down a couple rabbit holes.

SB1r, pg 14
[The Transferred Intelligence] will have a small amount of detectable P.P.E. (though never enough to be a spell caster).
The minimum PPE required to cast a spell is 1 PPE for Blinding Flash.

However, based on the clarification in WB28 pg 74-75, those who have more than 10 PPE can use TW items. So if your TI has more than 10 PPE for some reason, interpret as you will.

BoM pg 74, using Transference of Essence & Intellect on a robot body says nothing about transferring the ability to use magic, only skills, memories, personality, etc.

See https://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=137425 for suggestions of using TW in the robot design, using alien robots from another dimension, and organic artificial intelligences.

HOWEVER, scrolls are quite a simple way of using magic if neither magically or psionically empowered, like a housewife apparently. Any robot less than TI is definitively neither magically or psionically empowered.

BoM pg 140, the Create Magic Scroll spell says expressly that anyone can read a scroll aloud and it will work. The spell goes on to say "No camera of any kind (emphasis added) can photograph/record the mystic writing". The word "photograph" implies a static image of the scroll, though digital cameras convert an image to electrical impulses. A camera may also capture a "record" that is video in nature, but a record also implies some degree of persistence. Robotic eyes are obviously cameras of a sort, but when reading, are robotic eyes doing anything different than what organic eyes would do? Not really. So robots can read scrolls?

Nightbane WB3 pg 8, the author speaks of magic as
...bits of peoples' minds, which have been torn out and battered into an unnatural shape. We aren't talking about dull mystical energies any more. Now we're talking about abused fragments of peoples' minds. Semi-living structures (emphasis added) which might feel, learn, grow, evolve ... rebel... and who knows what else.

Not Rifts canon, but Nightbane canon. However, if this is adopted in your game, it means either a) robots can't do magic because they have no means to comprehend semi-living structures as non-living entities themselves, or b) they can because the semi-living structure is what the scroll's creator imparted through the PPE.

The implication though for the latter option is that text-to-voice software, like what is probably in CS body armor, may cast magic from a scroll.

Another implication for the latter option is that of magic rebelling - there may be a best before date on scrolls before things go terribly wrong.

Bottom line: Depending on how you and your GM interpret the above, for anything less than a TI, it would likely, possibly, maybe require a truck-load of handwavium outside the bounds of canon to have robots use magic scrolls and items.
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Re: I tried, I really tried.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Smiling_Bandit wrote:Hey folks. I was looking around and I hit a wall. Is there a cut off point for a given robot/android and using a random magic item? Like say I'm a Shemmarian warrior, one with a neural intelligence. I was thinking that there is a little grey area. Basic intelligences would have no chance of making wards. Then we graduate up a bit to advanced artificial intelligences. Stuff just shy of a neural intelligences.

Could they pick up a few scrolls, in a language they can read, pop off a fireball? Like is there some sort of "you must be this alive" check? So now we get to a proper neural intelligence. Can they do the scroll bit, in addition, can they wear an armor talisman from the venerable blind warrior women from Atlantis? Use a charge to get that sweet, sweet armor. And have it recharge like normal.

Smiling_Bandit - You must be this alive


You have to be a Person to use magic spells and such.
Palladium has no sharp line between machines that are People (Archie, Machine People, etc) and machines that are simply very advanced (Neural Intelligence), but the nature of spell casting is this:
RUE 185
[Magic] is controlled, focused, and manifested by the mind
and
All magic... is a physical representation of the practitioner's own mind, spirit, and force of will.
and
Step 1: Belief
Step 2: Conviction


Having a Mind, a Spirit, and a Will are necessary components to casting spells and generally wielding magic.
Even those are not sufficient, though, because a caster needs to also have Belief and Conviction, which is why not just any Person can cast spells.
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Re: I tried, I really tried.

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Smiling_Bandit wrote:Is there a cut off point for a given robot/android and using a random magic item?

Define "using" and "magic item".

While the first is pretty straight forward in terms of needing a definition since magic items tend to have features that fall into 1 of 2 categories: passive (always on), active (need to be triggered),. A Robot/Android should have no trouble utilizing passive (basically an enchanted weapon/armor/jewelry that is always on) since they don't have to do any more basic that manipulate the item as it is intended.

Now an active magic item (talisman) or feature (ex. a magic sword that can also cast fireball) is going to be out. Off hand I don't think the books ever go into what is involved in the user accessing a feature (like having a magic sword that can shoot fireballs triggering it to shoot said fireball), so I am going to say it can't. While we know what is involved in activating a magic scroll (the one exception I think), there is the fact it won't be able to perceive the enchanted lettering (per the Magic Scroll description as far back as RMB pg185 it states "No camera of any kind can photograph/record the mystic writing (appears blank)" it goes on to say that you can't manually copy it either). Robots, be they android (AI, Neural, possibly even TI) vision system IMHO falls under the heading of "camera of any kind", so even if it was written in Binary/Machine-Language the 'bot will only see blank paper.

Now Techno-Wizardry offers an exception, IF the spell-chain is triggered by a manual manipulation of the device (pull a trigger, push a button, flip a switch, etc) AND designed to be used by non-Mages/psychics it might still be able to use it.

Rune Items get into a really gray area though since you can't use normal telepathy (which IIRC is the only means it can communicate, TI if you can communicate via telepathy might be an exception), but the controlling intelligence could still cast the spells/abilities if it is wielded by a Robot, it's just the 'bot has no actual control over it though it might seem like it IF the controlling intelligence acts on its own accord.
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Re: I tried, I really tried.

Unread post by Shorty Lickens »

I'm gonna declare in my campaigns robots cannot use magic items. You need natural intelligence to use anything magical, no matter how minimal. Lobotomized Zembahks can, and some animals can use a magic item specifically designed for animal use. Even an intelligent tree can use an item designed for use by intelligent trees.
But not robots. Other than a fully automated device with a built in PPE source, of which Techno Wizards are quite fond. Though for role-playing purposes I would say absolutely no techno-wizard would even think of giving a magic item to a robot. Except for maybe locking in a vault.
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Re: I tried, I really tried.

Unread post by Library Ogre »

On the other hand, I have no trouble with intelligent robots using magic items... the magic is not in the robot, but in the item. Can Bob the Robot cast spells? No. Can he read a spell off a scroll? Yes... the spell, the PPE, is in the scroll, not in Bob.
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