Witches with multiple Minor Pacts

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Curbludgeon
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Witches with multiple Minor Pacts

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

I'm fixin' to write up a NPC for an adventure module whom serves as an "emissary of evil" type, helping to cement a limited partnership between disparate nasty factions. Not that a rules justification is needed for a NPC, but the 40 Years of Loyal Servitude minor pact implies that a Witch taking a Blood Sacrifice, Blood Sacrifice:First Born, or Sworn to destroy a foe Pact may accept multiple masters, and whether the term master is meant in a more general sense than a Pact is left undefined. Let's assume for the purpose of this adventure that the Blood Sacrifice pact was taken multiple times, and the "typical" number of murders required is held to a lower standard.

What I'm hoping to get a little help with is twofold: I'm hoping to dig up examples of lesser pacts found in the books, and to detail what different entities might possibly contribute to such a situation.

Hades: Modeus et al
Dyval: Mephisto et al
Chaos Demons: potentially the Adze (DB14), Slithering Screamer (CE: Creatures of Chaos), and Maelstrom-Maker (SB4)
Old Ones: the Iceborn Skinbinder is a variant on a Minor Witch making a pact with the Old One Netosa
Dark Gods: apparently any are available, but none I know of seem to provide abilities specific to themsleves
Alien Intelligences: examples include the false Jupiter and Devy'Orhal (CB2). Both Splugorth and Vampire Intelligences seem to only consider Major Pacts.
Nightlords: described as typically requiring the 40 year Minor Pact, precluding others
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Axelmania
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Re: Witches with multiple Minor Pacts

Unread post by Axelmania »

I kinda wonder if for even the one and done pacts that don' tinvolve ongoing service if they might put in a clause about powers being void if you make a pact with a new master.
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Re: Witches with multiple Minor Pacts

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

While I imagine that's the de facto standard in most games it isn't really made clear, and the wording in the 40 years pact definitely suggests those witches agreeing to other minor pacts can "accept" another master.
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Re: Witches with multiple Minor Pacts

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Curbludgeon wrote:While I imagine that's the de facto standard in most games it isn't really made clear, and the wording in the 40 years pact definitely suggests those witches agreeing to other minor pacts can "accept" another master.

Look at the source of the pacts. While a witch could change masters they may loose any powers from the old master, as source will not be likely to help some one serving some one else. I would think having a stated or unstated restriction against serving another on the pacts/gift would be standard on all pacts.

So while it may be technically possible to have multiple pacts with multiple sources, RP wise it would be extremely unlikely to even be possible.
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Re: Witches with multiple Minor Pacts

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

Not only is technically possible the best sort of possible, pearl clutching over house rules runs counter to the thread's clearly stated intent.

In that some of these factions either don't consider pacts conducive to multiple patrons (most A.I., Nightlords) or are in groups antithetical to each other (Old Ones vs. everyone, Hades vs Dyval) it might be worthwhile to try to find Dark Gods that are described as working well with demons or "deevils". Does anyone that seems more up on D&G (like Axlemania) recall anything offhand?
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Soldier of Od
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Re: Witches with multiple Minor Pacts

Unread post by Soldier of Od »

Curbludgeon wrote:Not only is technically possible the best sort of possible, pearl clutching over house rules runs counter to the thread's clearly stated intent.

In that some of these factions either don't consider pacts conducive to multiple patrons (most A.I., Nightlords) or are in groups antithetical to each other (Old Ones vs. everyone, Hades vs Dyval) it might be worthwhile to try to find Dark Gods that are described as working well with demons or "deevils". Does anyone that seems more up on D&G (like Axlemania) recall anything offhand?

There a quite a lot of references in Dragons and Gods to dark gods working together with demons. For instance, Vald-Tegor has "an amiable relationship" with Succor-Bemoth, Set is conspiring with Andras, Anubis has secret dealings with Charon, and Tark is plotting with Mormo. There are others. The idea of an NPC witch go-between sounds cool. Though note that the 40 years of servitude pact includes the restriction that they "must accept no other as his master". The blood sacrifice pact demands that the witch much remain "loyal" after the sacrifice, but doesn't define what that means. But the first born and destroy a foe pacts don't seem to specifically forbid the witch from making another pact. Hope that helps.

Edit: Ah, you know what - I was looking at PFRPG witch, not Rifts (coz I was thinking about PFRPG Dragons and Gods) - the wording in Conversion Book 1 under blood sacrifice is slightly different: it says "reverence" instead of "loyalty" - make of that what you will!
Further edit: I just noticed you already referenced that bit of text, sorry! Ignore that bit. :frazz: Anyway, Gods+demons together in the Dragons and Gods book: Yes, see above! :erm:
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Re: Witches with multiple Minor Pacts

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

There is a saying in the famous Book about serving two masters: The servant will love one master and hate the other.
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Re: Witches with multiple Minor Pacts

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

That was quite useful, Soldier of Od. I was away from my books and wasn't sure. Looking at the other elements I want to include in the adventure it turns out that it works a little better as a plot from Hades involving things stolen from Dyval than one from Dyval involving both stolen material and rogue demons. This dovetails well with both Palladium Fantasy and Pantheons of the Megaverse gods.

Thanks for the help.
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Re: Witches with multiple Minor Pacts

Unread post by Soldier of Od »

Glad to help!
I just remembered another thing that might be useful - Ammit the Beast is working with Abdul-Ra, and has even been to Dyval to seek out Abdul-Ra's imprisoned love interest, Rhada. Don't know whether that is of any use to you!
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Re: Witches with multiple Minor Pacts

Unread post by Axelmania »

Soldier of Od wrote:the 40 years of servitude pact includes the restriction that they "must accept no other as his master"

Possible "in" here regarding gender: perhaps a "Demon Lord" (or "Demon Lady"?) like Mania or "Devil Lord" (or "Devil Lady"?) like Hel might be considered a "mistress", therefore you could serve 2 female pseudo-masters without breaking this restriction.

This is of course munchkinesque min-maxing, but then so is stuff like that Sowki NPC who gets a Major Pact with a master who is conveniently in such a trapped coma that he could just use PPE to sever the bond yet keep all the benefits.

It'd be interesting to have some kind spell representing that process where you can gradually transition your pact endowments to permanent abilities that don't depend on allegience, bit by bit.
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Re: Witches with multiple Minor Pacts

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

There's some narrative value in a certain type of Witch serving a master and mistress, perhaps being 2 gods in a pantheon with a fraught relationship, but using it as a semantic workaround might be a tad cringey.

Your point about transitioning away from being dependent on a patron is interesting. A 10th level Witch with a Lesser Pact could gain access to the spell Heart of Darkness from DB12 pg 190 and learn any number of spells. If one of those spells gained via the spell was the previously granted-only Heart of Darkness, then ending the pact might be seen as a little less costly. The Permanency ritual in WB35 pg 109 can substitute Gift of Power-style bonuses, but its high level means getting a Soulmancer to perform it might be easier all around. A Witch with a Major Pact and the Gift of Union could start using these effects right away to learn spells independently of those they are granted access to via their master, but I wouldn't think breaking a Union should generally be possible.
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Axelmania
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Re: Witches with multiple Minor Pacts

Unread post by Axelmania »

Curbludgeon wrote:A 10th level Witch with a Lesser Pact could gain access to the spell Heart of Darkness from DB12 pg 190

Interesting idea, not a route I committed to memory for gaining access to Demon Magic, usually supposed to be hard to get (ie standard LLW can't just select as a spell) but would make sense for a witch.
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Re: Witches with multiple Minor Pacts

Unread post by Daeroos »

Hi all,

So using some necromancy to raise this post (sorry) and also this is slightly off the original intent (sorry again) but the title of this post got me thinking as I'm considering a witch as an enemy for my current group. Is there anything in the rules that says a witch can't make multiple pacts with the same being to get multiple gifts? ie they offer up their first born (within x number of years) to get the gift of power and then use the new power to slaughter people in your name (other gift of blood) to get the gift of magic? Was just curious on any actual rules I might have missed, or barring that just other people's thoughts on the idea.
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Re: Witches with multiple Minor Pacts

Unread post by eliakon »

One thing that needs to be taken into consideration is that even if something is *theoretically* possible. It doesn't mean it will happen.
It is possible to make all sorts of special pacts, or pact with all sorts of things. But that doesn't mean that you get to do it, nor that those things are going to grant the pact just because you want it.
Pacts are granted to further the cause of the grantor. And they are not going to give more then they receive.
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