D'norr Devilman Techno-Wizard Psionics

[dragonfett]

So D'norr are listed as being able to become TW's, but are listed as having absolutely no capacity for psionics. However, TW's automatically get psionics. How would/should this work out?

Available OCC's:Any, including Men at Arms, but most lean toward Adventurers and Scholars, or Practitioners of Magic (excluding those involving demons or the dark arts). D'norr are attracted to magic, science, medicine, education, language, lore, philosophy, history, and law. Note: On the D'norr home world, there was no magic, so D'norr are fascinated by the very concept. As a result, a full half of all Devilman are practitioners of magic, typically Ley Line Walker, Conjurer, Techno-Wizard or Warlock, but other disciplines as well. Only Witchery and all forms of demon worship are completely avoided. Cannot select psionic OCC's including Mystic because D'norr don't possess any psychic abilities.

[Mack]

Personally, I'd simply say they don't get the Psionics, but do get every other aspect of being a TW.

If you're feeling generous, you could either give them a few extra percentage points on their skills, or possibly an extra OCC Related skill or two to compensate.

[Fenris2020]

Apparently D'Norr don't get psionics, so I'd give them a few extra spells to make up for it.

[Father Goose]

I agree with the others. No psionics means no psionics. So either take the class as is, minus the psionics, or consider allowing/requesting (depending on whether you are the GM or player) an alternate compensation such as skills or extra spells, as the others suggest.

[Warshield73]

Personally, I'd simply say they don't get the Psionics, but do get every other aspect of being a TW.

If you're feeling generous, you could either give them a few extra percentage points on their skills, or possibly an extra OCC Related skill or two to compensate.

I personally take the opposite approach, if a race is precluded from the powers of an OCC then they are precluded from that OCC even if it is listed. I kind of treat it as a misprint.

If a player really wants to do it I would probably allow a replacement power of some kind or just give a few skills but as a rule I try to avoid this.

[ShadowLogan]

So D'norr are listed as being able to become TW's, but are listed as having absolutely no capacity for psionics. However, TW's automatically get psionics. How would/should this work out?

This D-Bee is also known to be a Cyber-Knight (Racial Breakdown found in SoT4 pg23): "5% D'norr Devilmen (D-Bee; see Sorcerer's Revenge". And we know ALL Cyber-Knights automatically get 3 Psi-Powers (Psi-Sword, Psi-Shield, Meditation) and are ALL considered at minimum a Minor Psychic. And they are not the only one: Quick-Flex Aliens also appear on the list and have "Psionics: None" in WB30. This shows we have some precedent for non-psychic races gaining psychic powers via their OCC selection, though a case might exist that this particular OCC is the/an exception.

Do we have any Palladium NPCs that are both Techno-Wizards AND non-psychic races (particularly D'norr) that could answer this question. It might also be worth remembering that you can artificially receive Psychic Powers via cybernetic implant (WB12, SB3), genetic engineering (SB3, WB12's Psi-X RCC), symbiotic (WB12, WB2, WB21), and mystical mutation (Psi-Stalkers, Sea Titan for ex.). Which gives a wide variety of options to explain it away.

[Mack]

So D'norr are listed as being able to become TW's, but are listed as having absolutely no capacity for psionics. However, TW's automatically get psionics. How would/should this work out?

This D-Bee is also known to be a Cyber-Knight (Racial Breakdown found in SoT4 pg23): "5% D'norr Devilmen (D-Bee; see Sorcerer's Revenge". And we know ALL Cyber-Knights automatically get 3 Psi-Powers (Psi-Sword, Psi-Shield, Meditation) and are ALL considered at minimum a Minor Psychic. And they are not the only one: Quick-Flex Aliens also appear on the list and have "Psionics: None" in WB30. This shows we have some precedent for non-psychic races gaining psychic powers via their OCC selection, though a case might exist that this particular OCC is the/an exception.

But do those Cyber-Knights actually gain any psionics? Are there any NPCs that set a precedent?

[HarleeKnight]

So D'norr are listed as being able to become TW's, but are listed as having absolutely no capacity for psionics. However, TW's automatically get psionics. How would/should this work out?

This D-Bee is also known to be a Cyber-Knight (Racial Breakdown found in SoT4 pg23): "5% D'norr Devilmen (D-Bee; see Sorcerer's Revenge". And we know ALL Cyber-Knights automatically get 3 Psi-Powers (Psi-Sword, Psi-Shield, Meditation) and are ALL considered at minimum a Minor Psychic. And they are not the only one: Quick-Flex Aliens also appear on the list and have "Psionics: None" in WB30. This shows we have some precedent for non-psychic races gaining psychic powers via their OCC selection, though a case might exist that this particular OCC is the/an exception.

Do we have any Palladium NPCs that are both Techno-Wizards AND non-psychic races (particularly D'norr) that could answer this question. It might also be worth remembering that you can artificially receive Psychic Powers via cybernetic implant (WB12, SB3), genetic engineering (SB3, WB12's Psi-X RCC), symbiotic (WB12, WB2, WB21), and mystical mutation (Psi-Stalkers, Sea Titan for ex.). Which gives a wide variety of options to explain it away.

I have always understood that having "none" under magic and/or psionics means they don't automatically get it but can choose an OCC that has it. The D'noor is the only one I've seen where it states emphatically that they can't get it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The simple answer is simple: Races that don't get psionics..don't get psionics.

It would take an 'act of GM' for them to get psionics.

D'norr Cyberknights......sure fine they just don't get Psi-swords and any other psionics the class typically comes with.

In other words they will end up as a special headhunter that uses physical swords.

[ShadowLogan]

@Mack
Lord Coake (SoT4 pg77) under Psionics at the end after the default powers: "Coake is not a natural psychic." As I said though, Cyber-Knights themselves might be an exception to the normal rules, after all all Cyber Knights are considered Psychic, Minor at minimum (SoT/RUE update, RMB-era version would just get the Psi-Sword and not be psychic). So something about Cyber-Knight training due to the SoT/RUE update instills psychic abilities, even in those who are not naturally psychic.

A related question that might also answer the OP is can a D'norr receive MOM implants (which unlock psychic powers in humans, I'm also including WB12's psi-implants). Technically the OCC is available (it isn't called out as not being available) to them, and SB3's use of Brodkill being able to receive MOM implants (text in WB5/SB1o says they do not have psychic powers) might set a precedent if it can meet SB3's other criteria (admittedly this might only apply to Mindwerks MOM tech).

[Fenris2020]

@Mack
Lord Coake (SoT4 pg77) under Psionics at the end after the default powers: "Coake is not a natural psychic." As I said though, Cyber-Knights themselves might be an exception to the normal rules, after all all Cyber Knights are considered Psychic, Minor at minimum (SoT/RUE update, RMB-era version would just get the Psi-Sword and not be psychic). So something about Cyber-Knight training due to the SoT/RUE update instills psychic abilities, even in those who are not naturally psychic.

A related question that might also answer the OP is can a D'norr receive MOM implants (which unlock psychic powers in humans, I'm also including WB12's psi-implants). Technically the OCC is available (it isn't called out as not being available) to them, and SB3's use of Brodkill being able to receive MOM implants (text in WB5/SB1o says they do not have psychic powers) might set a precedent if it can meet SB3's other criteria (admittedly this might only apply to Mindwerks MOM tech).

Mindwerks might be able to make a D'Norr psychic with MOM... but it doesn't work on every D-bee, so they might just go nuts or die.

[Orin J.]

The simple answer is simple: Races that don't get psionics..don't get psionics.

It would take an 'act of GM' for them to get psionics.

D'norr Cyberknights......sure fine they just don't get Psi-swords and any other psionics the class typically comes with.

In other words they will end up as a special headhunter that uses physical swords.

the cyber knight's class entry seems to indicate that their psi-sword isn't true psionics, but rather an extention of their inner strength ("or chi" kev seems to mention for no good reason) and states that All cyber knights can use it. i'd lock the devilman into the "non-psychic cyber knight" stats mentioned in the RUE and call it a night.

[VR Dragon]

Just do yourself a favor. Anything that stops a good character idea...use white out. I have always hated "Can't get this or can't learn that"

A handfull of lesser psionic powers is not going to break a darn thing.

[ShadowLogan]

@Fenris2020
SB3 lays out the criteria for determining if a D-Bee can receive MOM implants. The important takeaway from it though is that even if a race has no psychic potential at creation, such powers are still possible if they can receive MOM-type implants.

TW have a narrow psi-power list, almost like their training regimen brings out those powers much like a CK's does.

[Axelmania]

if we determine that the TW OCC can impart psi to non-psi races then what about the Mystic OCC or the Operator OCC?

[Warshield73]

if we determine that the TW OCC can impart psi to non-psi races then what about the Mystic OCC or the Operator OCC?

This is the reason I do not allow the OCC at all. There are plenty of Magic OCCs that don't have psionics so if they want to run a D'norr they can be Shifter or Temporal Warrior or of course a LLW.

[Curbludgeon]

I know that I've seen some species with Mystics without psionics, but I'll be gosh-darned if where doesn't elude me.

A Technowizard's psionics don't come across as being as intrinsic to the class as they do for a Cyber-Knight, and I think arguing the former's training process is able to instill powers in an otherwise nonpsionic being might start one down a slippery slope. In my headcanon (not that it matters) a C-K's psi-sword is related to the dream vision all C-K's at some point have, possibly as a boon from some immortal in a permanent Dreamstream.

For a non-psionic TW, I'd be cool with some minor compensation. I'd default to a new character having made an extra couple of items, with species described as having a heavy technological focus perhaps instead granting a couple of levels of percentile gains on relevant skills. For a species like the D'Norr, given their wide-ranging interest in magic I could see a TW learning a couple of extra spells, and having some propensity for learning invocation spells outside the average TW's purview.

[Warshield73]

I know that I've seen some species with Mystics without psionics, but I'll be gosh-darned if where doesn't elude me.

I think there are some OCCs that are completely magical in nature that are described of mystics. I think most of them would be shaman-ish but I can't find what I'm looking for either.

A Technowizard's psionics don't come across as being as intrinsic to the class as they do for a Cyber-Knight, and I think arguing the former's training process is able to instill powers in an otherwise nonpsionic being might start one down a slippery slope. In my headcanon (not that it matters) a C-K's psi-sword is related to the dream vision all C-K's at some point have, possibly as a boon from some immortal in a permanent Dreamstream.

I disagree with this. The TW gets 5 sensitive powers and Telemechanics. These powers are the same for every TW and there are no selections to make. I view these powers as critical to the TW because each one of them has the exact same powers, no variation at all. Personally I would have done the powers like the operator with some selections so you can have some variation between characters but I didn't write the game. These powers seem to be far more integral to the TW then the powers of the Operator for instance.

I think it's also important to point out that the original TW as presented in RMB also had mandatory psionics with just a few sensitive powers added in RUE.

To me a TW needs these powers in order to understand the machines they are planning to enchant and would have an incredibly difficult time trying to create TW devices without. In my view it is actually impossible.

For a non-psionic TW, I'd be cool with some minor compensation. I'd default to a new character having made an extra couple of items, with species described as having a heavy technological focus perhaps instead granting a couple of levels of percentile gains on relevant skills. For a species like the D'Norr, given their wide-ranging interest in magic I could see a TW learning a couple of extra spells, and having some propensity for learning invocation spells outside the average TW's purview.

If you allowed a non-psionic TW then to my mind you would need to increase the OCC skill bonuses and maybe add 1 or 2 Related and secondary skills, mostly related to technology. Again I just don't think it's possible.

[Axelmania]

I think one of the pantehons guys (greek dwarf?) was a TW without psi, unless I'm remembering wrong

[Giant2005]

I think one of the pantehons guys (greek dwarf?) was a TW without psi, unless I'm remembering wrong

You are remembering wrong. The only Dwarf TW in there is the impostor Vulcan and he has his Psionics. It doesn't mean much though considering Dwarves have the same psionic potential as Humans.
There are a couple of TW Gods in there though which don't follow the rules so much. Mummu is a TW with no Psionics, and Hermes is a TW that has Psionics, but not the right Psionics (no Telemechanics for example). Gods really don't care much about the rules though and Hermes is a pretty good example of that, so I wouldn't take them as evidence of anything.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The only mystic class that I've seen that is of a Non-pionic race is not in the Rifts game. as such that the RCC even exists is a unique aspect of that game.

And to note that RCC only intuitively knows magic. There are no psionics that go with the RCC.

[Axelmania]

I think one of the pantehons guys (greek dwarf?) was a TW without psi, unless I'm remembering wrong

You are remembering wrong. The only Dwarf TW in there is the impostor Vulcan and he has his Psionics.

pg 83-84 Hephaestus is 5'8" should've said hunchback sorry

lacks Telemech as a TW just like Hermes

[dragonfett]

This is for a character I am wanting to make for a game and the GM tends to be a stickler for the rules.

[Fenris2020]

This is for a character I am wanting to make for a game and the GM tends to be a stickler for the rules.

That's usually a good thing.