So, Proton topedoes

[Orin J.]

What are they?

i mean in the palladium context. it's an openly used sci-fi term, but it's use is....fairly variable. what does it do?

[Killer Cyborg]

I think I recall some passage from somewhere when Proton Torpedoes were introduced, talking about them being new technology, and maybe giving a good description... but I can't find where that passage might be.
They don't seem to be mentioned in the Mechanoids Trilogy.
The original Robotech book has them, but the description seems limited to:
RT38
A longer range, more powerful, explosive, energy missile.

Which is of limited use!
Sorry I couldn't find more.

[The Beast]

They only exist because the Robotech anime used them, because Star Trek and Star Wars used them, so Palladium had to put them in the RPG. The proton torpedoes then survived being edited out when Rifts came along because Palladium just did their typical copypasta job with the missile table from Robotech into Rifts.

[Killer Cyborg]

They only exist because the Robotech anime used them, because Star Trek and Star Wars used them, so Palladium had to put them in the RPG. The proton torpedoes then survived being edited out when Rifts came along because Palladium just did their typical copypasta job with the missile table from Robotech into Rifts.

That would mean that however proton torpedoes work in Robotech is how they probably work in all of Palladium.
Unfortunately, I can't find much info about how proton torpedoes were intended to work/behave in Robotech either!

There's this conversation from the Palladium boards (2012), which doesn't yield much.

Glitterboy2098 claims the proton torpedo made its way into rifts through Robotech, where in one episode Rick orders a flight of veritechs to "fire proton torpedoes".. apon which they lobbed some missiles of indeterminate size... the robotech scene doesn't show any special traits (it was just stock footage of missiles blowing away zentreadi mecha), and frankly anything from robotech isn't going to apply to rifts anyway.

Which means that Proton Torpedoes may not have been any particular thing other than a cool word that a character used in one fight. The writers might not have put any more thought into them than that.
For that matter, I don't even know from context whether the term "proton torpedo" was in the original Japanese versions, or they're something gained in translation as it were.

Looking at more general lore from other sources:
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Proton_torpedo
"A precise hit will start a chain reaction which should destroy the station. Only a precise hit will set up a chain reaction. The shaft is ray-shielded, so you'll have to use proton torpedoes."
―General Jan Dodonna briefs Rebel pilots on the attack on the Death Star
and
Proton torpedoes were a type of explosive ordnance used throughout the galaxy. Upon impact with a target, the energy warhead would release clouds of high-velocity proton particles.[1]

Also, there's a note that in the Star Wars radio drama, they said "photon torpedoes" instead of "proton."

All in all, it seems like it's basically an energy explosion kind of like a plasma missile, BUT I'd treat the damage type as "disintegration" as per particle beams, rather than as normal Explosion or Heat/Fire.
As with Plasma Missiles, I'd say that Rolling With Impact wouldn't be possible.

[The Beast]

They only exist because the Robotech anime used them, because Star Trek and Star Wars used them, so Palladium had to put them in the RPG. The proton torpedoes then survived being edited out when Rifts came along because Palladium just did their typical copypasta job with the missile table from Robotech into Rifts.

That would mean that however proton torpedoes work in Robotech is how they probably work in all of Palladium.
Unfortunately, I can't find much info about how proton torpedoes were intended to work/behave in Robotech either!

Well I wasn't really going with how they work in PB games, just why they're in the games. My first GM just went with how they work in Star Trek.

As a side note, the Robotech anime is also why we have nukes with such crappy damage. There's an episode where during the beginning portion a group of humans were defending themselves against inorganics. A missile and it was implied that it was a nuclear missile. The inorganics were caught in the explosion, but didn't appear to take any damage.

[HWalsh]

They only exist because the Robotech anime used them, because Star Trek and Star Wars used them, so Palladium had to put them in the RPG. The proton torpedoes then survived being edited out when Rifts came along because Palladium just did their typical copypasta job with the missile table from Robotech into Rifts.

Uhm... Actually...

Star Wars used "Proton Torpedoes" Photon Torpedoes were pure Star Trek.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

One of the things im doing with my re-work/update/-re-write was to make each explosive type unique.

I was using proton torpedos as an explosive-fired energy pulse.

Their special property was two-fold - they can hit things under water (to a certain depth) without penalty, and above water have to be dodged twice (if the first roll is successful, you dodge the explosion but still have to dodge the energy pulse; if the first roll fails, you have get hit by the missile directly and both the explosion and pulse hit).

As to what they actually are in Rifts.. i have no idea.

Edit: in the existant Rifts world, i'd say KC has the best idea. Its like a plasma warhead, except its particle energy.

[Zer0 Kay]

They only exist because the Robotech anime used them, because Star Trek and Star Wars used them, so Palladium had to put them in the RPG. The proton torpedoes then survived being edited out when Rifts came along because Palladium just did their typical copypasta job with the missile table from Robotech into Rifts.

That would mean that however proton torpedoes work in Robotech is how they probably work in all of Palladium.
Unfortunately, I can't find much info about how proton torpedoes were intended to work/behave in Robotech either!

Well I wasn't really going with how they work in PB games, just why they're in the games. My first GM just went with how they work in Star Trek.

As a side note, the Robotech anime is also why we have nukes with such crappy damage. There's an episode where during the beginning portion a group of humans were defending themselves against inorganics. A missile and it was implied that it was a nuclear missile. The inorganics were caught in the explosion, but didn't appear to take any damage.

That's funny since Star Trek doesn't have Proton Torpedoes they have Photon Torpedoes (Dang HWalsh beat me). Trek's Photon Torpedoes use and anti-mater blast and cause area effect damage by cascading photons. Wars' Proton Torpedoes cause damage the same way a particle beam does with accelerated charged particles. How it accelerates them isn't defined (e.g. m/a reaction, k/e reaction, e/m reaction, nuclear). Both weapons use accelerated particles to do the damage, the photon at relativistic speeds and proton at near relativistic speeds.

So now we have:
Plasma- highly conductive gas of the super hot variety instead of the cold one.
Proton- charged particle accelerated at near relativistic speeds.
Kinetic- pressure waves and possibly fragmentation is accelerated by potential energy stored in chemical form, in some method releasing combustion gasses many times the volume of the initial chemical form.
... Now all we need is an Ion Bomb and some sort of modified EMP where the EM pulse has enough magnetic force to carry off ferrous fragmentation. Maybe a vibro bomb... WTH? Well if not one that on impact emits a pinpoint vibrofield that expands into the target maybe one that releases a omni-directional forcefield emitted at variable frequencies so the edge of the field is jagged and though it isn't actively "vibrated" like a vibroblade, or the other type of vibro-bomb previously suggested, the fields expanding growth, before it looses energy causes the oscillations of the fields edge to change possition or grow.
I forget did I cover all the weapon types? KE, Plasma, Ion, Particle, EM, oh wait, laser which would be photon.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I think proton warheads are just techno-babble meant to meant nuclear warheads without using the word nuclear.

This would because of the times Star Wars was written up the nuke word would be 'a word to be avoided'. Why....look up 'Three Mile Island' or 'Chernobyl'.

Sort of how today, giving any credit to Jehovah for anything (good)....at all,..... 'are the words to be avoided' in today's culture.

Spoiler:

Why....the courts followed a misrepresentation of the meaning of the constitution of the text telling the Fed government is to keep from meddling in religion.

There is the possibility that they were talking about Anti-protons. Which have an electrical charge so they be contained by electro-magnetic & magnetic fields.
-------------------------
EMP bomb....there was one designed for popular mechanics ( or pop. sci.) like 20 years ago.
------------------------
In the PB Lexicon, Plasma warheads spew out a Super NAPALM. Yes, it is still a 'heat bomb', but it is more like a heat slime then omni-directional blast
-----------------------
While not a 'bomb', there are KEWs (Kenetic Energy Weapons.) Which are, when written non-technically, projectile weapons ether writ very big and a arse-load of a lot faster than firearm projectiles.
------------------------
nuclear pumped X-ray lasers... these, in one form, are presented in the MiO book.

[Orin J.]

All in all, it seems like it's basically an energy explosion kind of like a plasma missile, BUT I'd treat the damage type as "disintegration" as per particle beams, rather than as normal Explosion or Heat/Fire.
As with Plasma Missiles, I'd say that Rolling With Impact wouldn't be possible.

yeah, i spent some time consulting various different settings for them and the common link seems to be they're some form of energy burst, an alternate form of atomic reaction that just doesn't produce harmful radiation*. not exactly in line with particle beam weapons based on my understanding of the tech but something of a by-blow and i'll be going with that going forward.

In the PB Lexicon, Plasma warheads spew out a Super NAPALM. Yes, it is still a 'heat bomb', but it is more like a heat slime then omni-directional blast

that tracks actually, plasma ejectors aren't something you can scale into a bomb tech-wise, using a chemical to produce the massive amount of plasma material for the bomb instead is probably cost/weight effective by a few orders of magnitude.

*EDIT: yes i know all energy weapons are technically a form of radiation but i mean the kind that's conventionally implied instead of the instantly harmful effects of the proton torpedo.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

that tracks actually, plasma ejectors aren't something you can scale into a bomb tech-wise, using a chemical to produce the massive amount of plasma material for the bomb instead is probably cost/weight effective by a few orders of magnitude..

Depends, really. in Drake's Hammers Slammers universe, powerguns are plasma weapons that work by using just a few copper atoms to shoot plasma; a Plasma Warhead in Rifts could be built like this - basically a sphere with dozens of copper matrices pointing outwards. When it detonates, they are all hit with the electrical charge required to convert the copper into plasma, bathing the area in plasma. (This is basically how the plasma artillery works in the Hammerverse (not the tank guns, those fire direct plasma blasts; giant powerguns) - its an artillery shell that has a shaped plasma charge in it that detonates above the target as it arcs down, bathing the entire area in plasma; they aren't often seen in the actual Slammers books because they aren't effective against vehicles or fortifications (no penetrating power) but will horribly burn any exposed flesh in the area.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerverse#Powerguns

Now, i believe the guy you were quoting is technically correct (often the best kind of correct), because somewhere i do recall a Rifts book saying that Rifts Plasma weapons aren't "really" plasma but something "close" like a "super Napalm". So, that's the canon, but...

They could just as easily be actual plasma weapons built on the model of the Powergun in the Hammerverse. A plasma rifle/cannon has a small block of copper in it, it shaves off a few atoms when you fire; a single 1" cube of copper could probably fire tens of thousands of shots, so its not listed as ammo, the relevant ammo is the electrical power needed to turn the copper atoms into plasma (E-clip), and the cube of copper can/is assumed to be replaced during general repair and maintenance of the gun. (And the Naruni Plasma Cartridge guns are basically 100% rip-offs/inspired by/modeled on the Powerguns from Slammers, FWIW. I asked CJ about it when i ran into him at a con, and yes, basically, Mercenaries in general and the Naruni lineup in particular (Powerguns and Big Nasty Hovertanks) are basically taken straight from the Hammerverse (with Larsen's Brigade basically being Hammers Slammers, with even a similar back story for the leader of the company).

Not that it really matters either way; the meaningful parts are:

Its considered heat/fire damage
its considered energy damage
inflicts X damage to Y area (for explosives)

Whether it is truly plasma or not isnt relevant to the statistics at all.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Depends, really. in Drake's Hammers Slammers universe, powerguns are plasma weapons that work by using just a few copper atoms to shoot plasma; a Plasma Warhead in Rifts could be built like this - basically a sphere with dozens of copper matrices pointing outwards. When it detonates, they are all hit with the electrical charge required to convert the copper into plasma, bathing the area in plasma. (This is basically how the plasma artillery works in the Hammerverse (not the tank guns, those fire direct plasma blasts; giant powerguns) - its an artillery shell that has a shaped plasma charge in it that detonates above the target as it arcs down, bathing the entire area in plasma; they aren't often seen in the actual Slammers books because they aren't effective against vehicles or fortifications (no penetrating power) but will horribly burn any exposed flesh in the area.)
snip...

*shakes head*

In the PB Lexicon, Plasma warheads spew out a Super NAPALM. Yes, it is still a 'heat bomb', but it is more like a heat slime then omni-directional blast

------------------------

The 'copper plasma jet' is how shaped charged HE armor penetrating warheads works.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

So, you went through all that trouble to quote me out of context to try to make some kind of relevant point, while avoiding the part of my post that literally agrees with you:

Now, i believe the guy you were quoting is technically correct (often the best kind of correct), because somewhere i do recall a Rifts book saying that Rifts Plasma weapons aren't "really" plasma but something "close" like a "super Napalm". So, that's the canon, but...

<snipped>

Not that it really matters either way; the meaningful parts are:

Its considered heat/fire damage
its considered energy damage
inflicts X damage to Y area (for explosives)

Whether it is truly plasma or not isnt relevant to the statistics at all.

That's a truly impressive Troll.

Warning: Insults. Mack

[Warshield73]

Not that it really matters either way; the meaningful parts are:

Its considered heat/fire damage
its considered energy damage
inflicts X damage to Y area (for explosives)

Whether it is truly plasma or not isnt relevant to the statistics at all.

I largely agree with this in terms of game mechanics. The idea that a person might be resistant to Proton Torpedoes with impervious to energy spell was one of the first decisions I had to make as a GM.

However, from a game atmosphere POV it would be a lot better to have a description of how different weapons work. A house or a small village destroyed by an actual plasma weapon vs super napalm is going to be different.

[Fenris2020]

They only exist because the Robotech anime used them, because Star Trek and Star Wars used them, so Palladium had to put them in the RPG. The proton torpedoes then survived being edited out when Rifts came along because Palladium just did their typical copypasta job with the missile table from Robotech into Rifts.

Star Trek uses Photon torpedoes, but you're right about the rest.
I have no idea how the Protons different from other damage types, however

[Orin J.]

Star Trek uses Photon torpedoes, but you're right about the rest.
I have no idea how the Protons different from other damage types, however

assuming that it's the protons DEALING the damage (which was what i chose to focus on when i was looking up this stuff) protons would have to deal damage in the same general way as radiation, smashing through material at the atomic level and disintegrating molecules, except where nukes use a radiation wavelength where "heavy" materials protect from damage, proton based damage would be shielded against from "light" materials, like gasses. that'd explain the awful blast radius compared to a conventional nuke and the lack of deadly radiation since the air's neutralizing it instead of normal shielding. should probably be much more powerful in space though, better for clearing swarms of fighters and such i guess.

it'd also explain why the crap it's called a torpedo, it's meant for the space navy and people are just slapping the warheads on atmospheric missiles because they deal damage.

Not that it really matters either way; the meaningful parts are:

Its considered heat/fire damage
its considered energy damage
inflicts X damage to Y area (for explosives)

Whether it is truly plasma or not isnt relevant to the statistics at all.

I largely agree with this in terms of game mechanics. The idea that a person might be resistant to Proton Torpedoes with impervious to energy spell was one of the first decisions I had to make as a GM.

However, from a game atmosphere POV it would be a lot better to have a description of how different weapons work. A house or a small village destroyed by an actual plasma weapon vs super napalm is going to be different.

actually at the temperatures plasma works at, i'm not so sure. any chemical mix able to burn at plasma temps is probably instantly vaporizing in the explosion and effectively instantly burning itself out after impact rather than any real sustained fire (aside from stuff already in the area catching of course). the difference being the mechanical source of the plasma burst, rather than the result here....

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Warning: Insults. Mack

Or you could make any attemtpt to try to actually do a moderation job, and warn the guy who was ACTUALLY trolling.

Nah, that'd require to you be like.. professional, or make an attempt to do anything other than attack people you dont like with your MODERATOR shield.

Keep on keepin on, though. Never change.

Wouldn't want to catch a case of integrity or anything.

Warning: That's a second warning for insults. Mack

[drewkitty ~..~]

With the different types of weapons they should sort of have different types of side effects. So maybe proton warheads should cause a localized power outages....or they give the people in the area of the hit a type of radiation damage. The sort of things that take a lot of text to explain the effects outside of How much MD does it do.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Troll...no

Pointing out that the speculation didn't match what was already officially defined. yes.
Was I nasty about it. No

Yes, I didn't read every single word of the post. But everything I "looked at" before writing my response was talking about Hammer slammers tech. The two big paragraphs.

suggestion:
Put the part you are acknowledging the official text 1st. (which in your post was only one sentence) Then do the speculation after that.


>>>Doing that instead of what you did, putting the acknowledgments in the middle of the speculation where it can be easily skipped over when people are skimming over the post.
Just like what happened.

I tried to respond in privet before posing here.

[Tiree]

I think I recall some passage from somewhere when Proton Torpedoes were introduced, talking about them being new technology, and maybe giving a good description... but I can't find where that passage might be.
They don't seem to be mentioned in the Mechanoids Trilogy.
The original Robotech book has them, but the description seems limited to:
RT38
A longer range, more powerful, explosive, energy missile.

Which is of limited use!
Sorry I couldn't find more.

Yeah, but the game mechanics have it deal a bit more damage, fastest speeds for a missile, and the longest range.

[Borast]

They only exist because the Robotech anime used them, because Star Trek and Star Wars used them, so Palladium had to put them in the RPG. The proton torpedoes then survived being edited out when Rifts came along because Palladium just did their typical copypasta job with the missile table from Robotech into Rifts.

Actually, Star Trek uses photon torpedoes.
Why they call them such... No idea, since they use antimatter warheads.
Well, maybe because the M/AM reaction releases high energy gamma and x-ray photons?

EDIT: Darn...scooped!

[drewkitty ~..~]

They only exist because the Robotech anime used them, because Star Trek and Star Wars used them, so Palladium had to put them in the RPG. The proton torpedoes then survived being edited out when Rifts came along because Palladium just did their typical copypasta job with the missile table from Robotech into Rifts.

Actually, Star Trek uses photon torpedoes.
Why they call them such... No idea, since they use antimatter warheads.
Well, maybe because the M/AM reaction releases high energy gamma and x-ray photons?

EDIT: Darn...scooped!

So the glowyness around them is their drive field? (They are alway portrayed as glowing in the movies and shows.)

[Orin J.]

They only exist because the Robotech anime used them, because Star Trek and Star Wars used them, so Palladium had to put them in the RPG. The proton torpedoes then survived being edited out when Rifts came along because Palladium just did their typical copypasta job with the missile table from Robotech into Rifts.

Actually, Star Trek uses photon torpedoes.
Why they call them such... No idea, since they use antimatter warheads.
Well, maybe because the M/AM reaction releases high energy gamma and x-ray photons?

EDIT: Darn...scooped!

So the glowyness around them is their drive field? (They are alway portrayed as glowing in the movies and shows.)

yeah, all space travel tech is glowy. that's why our space program is so limited, we don't have glowytech yet.

[Warshield73]

They only exist because the Robotech anime used them, because Star Trek and Star Wars used them, so Palladium had to put them in the RPG. The proton torpedoes then survived being edited out when Rifts came along because Palladium just did their typical copypasta job with the missile table from Robotech into Rifts.

Actually, Star Trek uses photon torpedoes.
Why they call them such... No idea, since they use antimatter warheads.
Well, maybe because the M/AM reaction releases high energy gamma and x-ray photons?

EDIT: Darn...scooped!

So the glowyness around them is their drive field? (They are alway portrayed as glowing in the movies and shows.)

yeah, all space travel tech is glowy. that's why our space program is so limited, we don't have glowytech yet.

He who controls the glowytech can control the universe. Or at least make cheesy sci-fi.

[Borast]

They only exist because the Robotech anime used them, because Star Trek and Star Wars used them, so Palladium had to put them in the RPG. The proton torpedoes then survived being edited out when Rifts came along because Palladium just did their typical copypasta job with the missile table from Robotech into Rifts.

Actually, Star Trek uses photon torpedoes.
Why they call them such... No idea, since they use antimatter warheads.
Well, maybe because the M/AM reaction releases high energy gamma and x-ray photons?

EDIT: Darn...scooped!

So the glowyness around them is their drive field? (They are alway portrayed as glowing in the movies and shows.)

There is - apparently - no canon reason, but I've heard a few (and a few seconds worth of Google reading supplied more).

In the book Dreadnaught, the reasoning was based on the amount of energy in the torpedo. The E's and the destroyer's torps were red. The dreadnaughts' were blue, and powerful enough to destroy a D7 behind full shields. (Blue shifting?)
Then, consider that in TOS, space battles could occur at warp speed (which is why the game Star Fleet Battles turns were less than 1 second long [subjective 1 min to the crews], and each hex on the map was 10k kms).

Now, on-line, people are speculating that the glow is either thrust related, or high-energy short term shielding around the casing.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If the different colors are due to the blue/red shifting then the color of the torppedo would shift around during its maneuverings.

Then, consider that in TOS, space battles could occur at warp speed (which is why the game Star Fleet Battles turns were less than 1 second long [subjective 1 min to the crews], and each hex on the map was 10k kms).
snip...

If you are referring to relativistic time dilation, then the numbers would be reversed. With the objective time having the battle taking a minute, while the subjective time for the crew being 1 sec.
But then agin I just watch the movies and shows and not a trekie.

[Blue_Lion]

Warning: Insults. Mack

Or you could make any attemtpt to try to actually do a moderation job, and warn the guy who was ACTUALLY trolling.

Nah, that'd require to you be like.. professional, or make an attempt to do anything other than attack people you dont like with your MODERATOR shield.

Keep on keepin on, though. Never change.

Wouldn't want to catch a case of integrity or anything.

Warning: That's a second warning for insults. Mack

Seams to me he did. It just is not who you accused of trolling.

The poster you accused of trolling reacted to a part of your post that was completely irrelevant to any meaningful way to rifts with a head shake/sign of disbelieve that you dragged it up so that was not trolling). It appears he addressed the main issue of your post and not the sub part where you addressed the rules. The end part where you said not that it maters because X is Y in the setting, is a different sub point, and only shows that your main point was pointless rant.

Your line about technically correct being the worst kind appears to be a partial insult designed to get a reaction. But you accused some one else of trolling.

While your comment about how plasma works in X in Y setting was technically correct it is irrelevant to how it is in rifts so posting it the way you did was not meaningful. Just part of what to me appears to be a availed insult and attempt to troll a person who was correct inside the setting without getting caught. I do not know your intent but that is the way.

Not agreeing with you is not trolling. Insulting people or pushing there buttons to start a flame war is trolling. He reacted to an entire paragraph you posted with as a whole he did not cherry pick a line but address your whole paragraph lots of time people only react to part of a post in a quote because the rest they do not think was worth reacting to. His response does not appear to be intended to insult, or start a flame war if anything it was a dismissive.

[Borast]

If the different colors are due to the blue/red shifting then the color of the torppedo would shift around during its maneuverings.

Then, consider that in TOS, space battles could occur at warp speed (which is why the game Star Fleet Battles turns were less than 1 second long [subjective 1 min to the crews], and each hex on the map was 10k kms).
snip...

If you are referring to relativistic time dilation, then the numbers would be reversed. With the objective time having the battle taking a minute, while the subjective time for the crew being 1 sec.
But then agin I just watch the movies and shows and not a trekie.

Hey, no one ever said the guys and gals at Task Force Games had astrophysics degrees...
But, for all we know, once you exceed "C," dilation reverses?

Seriously, though... If you insist on more than that, it'll likely take me a while to find the box the TFG stuff is in. But, I haven't even looked at the rules in WELL over 20 years!

[drewkitty ~..~]

I would rather play TFG's the Starfire game (about as old as SFB).....it is just the TFG's SFB taps into he Trekkie fan base.