Supernatural Strength and Physical Skills

[StormGryffen]

In some Palladium games, it says that supernatural strength characters do not benefit from the addition of physical skills. However, RIFTS doesn't seem to mention this anywhere - nor does it mention what to do with supernatural MDC beings who select physical skills that add bonuses to SDC. What do the rules for RIFTS Ultimate dictate in these scenarios?

[Orin J.]

MDC beings don't have an SDC pool to gain to, so they don't gain the SDC. SDC beings that can convert their SDC to MDC gain the SDC, which will convert over to MDC as required.

[StormGryffen]

MDC beings don't have an SDC pool to gain to, so they don't gain the SDC. SDC beings that can convert their SDC to MDC gain the SDC, which will convert over to MDC as required.

Thanks. To clarify, I'm also asking about strength gains from physical skills, though I could have stated it more clearly. Rifts ultimate doesn't seem to say anything about it as far as I can tell.

[Shark_Force]

only place in rifts that I can recall that has anything about this is a table somewhere in the 1st phase world book that categorizes different types of creatures (aliens?) and describes how they interact with physical skills. I don't think it's post-RUE, but I don't know of any other place so I suppose whatever is there is as official as you're ever likely to get.

[StormGryffen]

only place in rifts that I can recall that has anything about this is a table somewhere in the 1st phase world book that categorizes different types of creatures (aliens?) and describes how they interact with physical skills. I don't think it's post-RUE, but I don't know of any other place so I suppose whatever is there is as official as you're ever likely to get.

Thanks, Shark Force.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

In some Palladium games, it says that supernatural strength characters do not benefit from the addition of physical skills.

Not saying you're wrong, but can you cite a source on this? I think that maybe the Super Power from HU2 says that, but i cant think of anywhere else.

Id like to read any other sources that say this.

[StormGryffen]

In some Palladium games, it says that supernatural strength characters do not benefit from the addition of physical skills.

Not saying you're wrong, but can you cite a source on this? I think that maybe the Super Power from HU2 says that, but i cant think of anywhere else.

Id like to read any other sources that say this.

I stumbled onto this thread while trying to find an answer for my RIFTS game:

https://www.palladiumbooks.com/forums/v ... 7&t=111482

According to the first post, the rule is located on page 293 of Heroes Ultimate 2. I hope this helps.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

In some Palladium games, it says that supernatural strength characters do not benefit from the addition of physical skills.

Not saying you're wrong, but can you cite a source on this? I think that maybe the Super Power from HU2 says that, but i cant think of anywhere else.

Id like to read any other sources that say this.

I stumbled onto this thread while trying to find an answer for my RIFTS game:

https://www.palladiumbooks.com/forums/v ... 7&t=111482

According to the first post, the rule is located on page 293 of Heroes Ultimate 2. I hope this helps.

That is the exact line i was referring to. It applies ONLY to the Super Power "Supernatural Strength" itself.

Also, in referrence to the table Shark Force talks about in DB2 - it actually doesn't talk about Physical Skills at all. It is referencing 'physiological modifications', which is a table that is step 4 in the creation process, not physical skills.

So, as far as i can tell, with no rule saying "Physical Skills do not increase supernatural attributes", they do.

As was pointed out, though, things that add SDC likely are useless because an MDC creature doesn't have SDC to add to. But the attribute bonuses would apply.
Its not a general rule, but one specific to that Super Power (largely because it adds an already crazy amount to your PS - 30 + 2D6!).

In general, there is no rule in any Palladium game im aware of that says "Physical Skills dont add to supernatural attributes".

[StormGryffen]

Oh, well that's a cool analysis. I gotta give you credit for knowing your stuff, Colonel_Tetsuya. Much appreciated.

[Fenris2020]

In some Palladium games, it says that supernatural strength characters do not benefit from the addition of physical skills.

Not saying you're wrong, but can you cite a source on this? I think that maybe the Super Power from HU2 says that, but i cant think of anywhere else.

Id like to read any other sources that say this.

I stumbled onto this thread while trying to find an answer for my RIFTS game:

https://www.palladiumbooks.com/forums/v ... 7&t=111482

According to the first post, the rule is located on page 293 of Heroes Ultimate 2. I hope this helps.

That is the exact line i was referring to. It applies ONLY to the Super Power "Supernatural Strength" itself.

Also, in referrence to the table Shark Force talks about in DB2 - it actually doesn't talk about Physical Skills at all. It is referencing 'physiological modifications', which is a table that is step 4 in the creation process, not physical skills.

So, as far as i can tell, with no rule saying "Physical Skills do not increase supernatural attributes", they do.

As was pointed out, though, things that add SDC likely are useless because an MDC creature doesn't have SDC to add to. But the attribute bonuses would apply.
Its not a general rule, but one specific to that Super Power (largely because it adds an already crazy amount to your PS - 30 + 2D6!).

In general, there is no rule in any Palladium game im aware of that says "Physical Skills dont add to supernatural attributes".

I agree. I've been playing this game for 15 years, and never saw anything which contradicts this answer

[Axelmania]

MDC beings don't have an SDC pool to gain to, so they don't gain the SDC.

Do we have a text somewhere saying my hypothetical MDC D-Bee scholar can't roll the usual 4D6 for his SDC?

Unless it's forbidden somewhere I'd like let him have that, could come in handy if he gets hit with a phase beamer or wants to make a golem.

Thoth has to pay the SDC fees for his golems somehow, even if Palladium doesn't bother to list his SDC (like his chi) it could still be there.

[Orin J.]

MDC beings don't have an SDC pool to gain to, so they don't gain the SDC.

Do we have a text somewhere saying my hypothetical MDC D-Bee scholar can't roll the usual 4D6 for his SDC?

Unless it's forbidden somewhere I'd like let him have that, could come in handy if he gets hit with a phase beamer or wants to make a golem.

Thoth has to pay the SDC fees for his golems somehow, even if Palladium doesn't bother to list his SDC (like his chi) it could still be there.

check virtually any monster entry. if it's an MDC setting, the MDC entry replaces the SDC/HP entries which are then either not listed at all or listed as none;see MDC. you mechanically cannot have both. i haven't the conversion books handy but i'm pretty sure they also reflect this.

[Axelmania]

check virtually any monster entry. if it's an MDC setting, the MDC entry replaces the SDC/HP entries which are then either not listed at all or listed as none;see MDC.

"None" doesn't always show up though. Sometimes it just sys "see MDC" under HP, like for example CB114 for the Chimera.

That wouldn't necessarily mean it couldn't have SDC, it could just mean it's normally so unimportant they don't bother with it.

you mechanically cannot have both.

Nothing about the mechanics prevents having both. Vampire Intelligences were notable for having both HP and MDC.

[Killer Cyborg]

check virtually any monster entry. if it's an MDC setting, the MDC entry replaces the SDC/HP entries which are then either not listed at all or listed as none;see MDC.

"None" doesn't always show up though. Sometimes it just sys "see MDC" under HP, like for example CB114 for the Chimera.

That wouldn't necessarily mean it couldn't have SDC, it could just mean it's normally so unimportant they don't bother with it.

you mechanically cannot have both.

Nothing about the mechanics prevents having both. Vampire Intelligences were notable for having both HP and MDC.

RUE 289
Demons and other supernatural beings... have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.
and
Creatures of Magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also mega-damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

This rules out Demons, Supernatural Beings, and Creatures of Magic from being able to have SDC (unless specified), because these creature types all have by canon MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

There is some technical leeway which I'm sure you'll argue for, that while the above rules cover MOST MDC creatures, it does not cover all of them. There COULD in theory be a MDC creature that is not a Demon, Supernatural Being, or a Creature of Magic, and that is therefore not explicitly forbidden in this passage from having SDC.
But the intent is clear: MDC is intended by the rules to REPLACE SDC, not augment or supplement it.

[Shark_Force]

check virtually any monster entry. if it's an MDC setting, the MDC entry replaces the SDC/HP entries which are then either not listed at all or listed as none;see MDC.

"None" doesn't always show up though. Sometimes it just sys "see MDC" under HP, like for example CB114 for the Chimera.

That wouldn't necessarily mean it couldn't have SDC, it could just mean it's normally so unimportant they don't bother with it.

you mechanically cannot have both.

Nothing about the mechanics prevents having both. Vampire Intelligences were notable for having both HP and MDC.

RUE 289
Demons and other supernatural beings... have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.
and
Creatures of Magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also mega-damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

This rules out Demons, Supernatural Beings, and Creatures of Magic from being able to have SDC (unless specified), because these creature types all have by canon MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

There is some technical leeway which I'm sure you'll argue for, that while the above rules cover MOST MDC creatures, it does not cover all of them. There COULD in theory be a MDC creature that is not a Demon, Supernatural Being, or a Creature of Magic, and that is therefore not explicitly forbidden in this passage from having SDC.
But the intent is clear: MDC is intended by the rules to REPLACE SDC, not augment or supplement it.

there sort of is. it's called a cyborg. of course, good luck trying to convince the GM that your tongue and brain have all the SDC from weightlifting.

[Killer Cyborg]

check virtually any monster entry. if it's an MDC setting, the MDC entry replaces the SDC/HP entries which are then either not listed at all or listed as none;see MDC.

"None" doesn't always show up though. Sometimes it just sys "see MDC" under HP, like for example CB114 for the Chimera.

That wouldn't necessarily mean it couldn't have SDC, it could just mean it's normally so unimportant they don't bother with it.

you mechanically cannot have both.

Nothing about the mechanics prevents having both. Vampire Intelligences were notable for having both HP and MDC.

RUE 289
Demons and other supernatural beings... have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.
and
Creatures of Magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also mega-damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

This rules out Demons, Supernatural Beings, and Creatures of Magic from being able to have SDC (unless specified), because these creature types all have by canon MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

There is some technical leeway which I'm sure you'll argue for, that while the above rules cover MOST MDC creatures, it does not cover all of them. There COULD in theory be a MDC creature that is not a Demon, Supernatural Being, or a Creature of Magic, and that is therefore not explicitly forbidden in this passage from having SDC.
But the intent is clear: MDC is intended by the rules to REPLACE SDC, not augment or supplement it.

there sort of is. it's called a cyborg. of course, good luck trying to convince the GM that your tongue and brain have all the SDC from weightlifting.

Cyborgs have been a longstanding controversy when it comes to SDC/HP, but the issue was resolved in canon:
RUE 47
Combat Cyborgs/Full Conversion Borgs... are impervious to...any attacks or weapons that do damage direct to Hit Points (is considered a Mega-Damage being now.).

So Borgs are a kind of Mega-Damage being that is NOT a demon, supernatural being, or a creature of magic,
and we know that they don't have Hit Points,
which makes it seem entirely unlikely that they have any SDC, as they are "Mega-Damage beings."

[The Beast]

check virtually any monster entry. if it's an MDC setting, the MDC entry replaces the SDC/HP entries which are then either not listed at all or listed as none;see MDC.

"None" doesn't always show up though. Sometimes it just sys "see MDC" under HP, like for example CB114 for the Chimera.

That wouldn't necessarily mean it couldn't have SDC, it could just mean it's normally so unimportant they don't bother with it.

you mechanically cannot have both.

Nothing about the mechanics prevents having both. Vampire Intelligences were notable for having both HP and MDC.

RUE 289
Demons and other supernatural beings... have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.
and
Creatures of Magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also mega-damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

This rules out Demons, Supernatural Beings, and Creatures of Magic from being able to have SDC (unless specified), because these creature types all have by canon MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

There is some technical leeway which I'm sure you'll argue for, that while the above rules cover MOST MDC creatures, it does not cover all of them. There COULD in theory be a MDC creature that is not a Demon, Supernatural Being, or a Creature of Magic, and that is therefore not explicitly forbidden in this passage from having SDC.
But the intent is clear: MDC is intended by the rules to REPLACE SDC, not augment or supplement it.

Loathe as I am to take Axel's side, he is correct about vampire intelligences originally having both MDC and hit points. They're also not the only species to have done that. Here's a brief list:

Jotans
Gigantes
Titans
Mulkas
Vampire Intelligences
Vernulians
According to WB1 dybbuks have both HP and MDC, but in CB1 they just have MDC.
Rhino-buffalos
Ostrosaurus

Fortunately it seems that by WB2 Palladium stopped that nonsense and had everything either HP & SDC, or MDC. Furthermore later versions of the list turned them into pure MDC creatures.

[Orin J.]

So Axel has once again retreated to the wastelands of early palladium rules consistency to argue his point. can we put up like, a fence or something to keep people out of there?

Warning: Please don't get personal. Mack

[drewkitty ~..~]

RUE 289
Demons and other supernatural beings... have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.
and
Creatures of Magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also mega-damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

This rules out Demons, Supernatural Beings, and Creatures of Magic from being able to have SDC (unless specified), because these creature types all have by canon MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

There is some technical leeway which I'm sure you'll argue for, that while the above rules cover MOST MDC creatures, it does not cover all of them. There COULD in theory be a MDC creature that is not a Demon, Supernatural Being, or a Creature of Magic, and that is therefore not explicitly forbidden in this passage from having SDC.
But the intent is clear: MDC is intended by the rules to REPLACE SDC, not augment or supplement it.

I agree that In Rifts this is true.
But outside Rifts, they are HP/SDC beings. Yes, I understand this is the rifts forum. So no nit picking my nitpicking.
----------------------------------------

As such a scholar of a MDC race would NOT ROLL for sdc from step three of char creation. However, they would roll the class & skill bonus and note it in the sdc section of the char sheet. So IF the char ever gets proved to an SDC PB Game the bonus is already in the SDC stat for there. This presumes that there is a conversion rate already in the books and the player even bothered to look up and roll the HP/SDC of the race for an SDC game.
----------------------------------------
Sometimes the only official answer to a question is in the older books. why? Most likely because someone forgot to put the canon rule into the newer books. If there is nothing in the newer books that directly changes the official answer in the older book, then there is nothing that change the official answer.

[Blue_Lion]

If I recall the correctly when rifts first came out physical skills did not enhance SNPS. That changed in I think it was conversion book 1. The idea is that a charter is typically SDC or MDC. At some (early times) races where stated to with it saying see MDC under hit points. That was a redirect not an amount of sdc hit points. In most PB games stating with hit points was standard. So if entry was say cut and paste or standard all of pb format they would have a hit points block. There may be acceptations to this but that does not mean it is not the rule. There may also be races that do to bad editing from another game format have sdc/hit points, making them an acceptation not the rule.

I have seen two trains of thoughts on the bonus sdc (do not recall if they are from the books or peoples house rules)
1 they are mdc on mdc creatures.
2 they are only tracked to see if they add up to 100 granting 1 more point of MDC.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

If I recall the correctly when rifts first came out physical skills did not enhance SNPS.

You do not remember correctly (though why you would have to remember when you have the RMB lying around i'd assume, is beyond me). There was no mention of SNPS being any different in terms of anything other than carrying and lifting capacity.

That changed in I think it was conversion book 1.

Nope. There is no text in CB1 saying "and now SNPS can get bonuses from physical attributes when it could not before" or anything remotely like it.

The only mention in ANY Palladium game about SNPS and attribute bonuses is the one line about the actual Major Super Power, in HU2 (or about supernatural attributes in general, really). And that applies only to characters with that super power.

[Killer Cyborg]

If I recall the correctly when rifts first came out physical skills did not enhance SNPS.

You do not remember correctly (though why you would have to remember when you have the RMB lying around i'd assume, is beyond me). There was no mention of SNPS being any different in terms of anything other than carrying and lifting capacity.

Right.
And it wasn't even "Supernatural PS," IIRC.
It was just "supernatural creatures lift/carry this amount" kind of stuff.
I don't think that "Supernatural Strength" was a thing until Conversion Book 1.

[drewkitty ~..~]

When the RMB cam out SNPS was a description carried over from PF1 where it was a PS with a score above ...like 20ish or something. Something that only SN creatures had the dice to get to with their rolls.
It was not till the RCB1 in 1994 where the SNPS damage chart came into the game books. HU2 wasn't till 1998.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

When the RMB cam out SNPS was a description carried over from PF1 where it was a PS with a score above ...like 20ish or something. Something that only SN creatures had the dice to get to with their rolls.
It was not till the RCB1 in 1994 where the SNPS damage chart came into the game books. HU2 wasn't till 1998.

Ermm...

where do you guys get this stuff? Its like everyone is struggling to remember some far-off time that is a haze of memory of which there is no written record....

But uh... its all written down. Presumably, most of us posting here have the books. Right there to look at. We dont have to guess, or assume. We can literally just read it.

Moving on, however,

Its not a carry-over from PF at all.

Its right there on Page 9 of the RMB. It reads NOTHING like PF.

There's three categories:

Normal Characters, Strong Characters, and Supernatural Creatures including dragons.

Thats it.

No mention of "Supernatural PS" - just... creatures that are Supernatural carry more. And they can throw stuff further (there's a nice little chart).

Supernatural PS wasn't codified until CB1, im pretty sure.

I'd have to look at actual publishing dates, but i believe CB1 came before WB1 & 2 (and WB1 doesn't have "Supernatural PS" just a note that Supernatural creatures can damage Vampires with their bare hands/claws).

So the entire concept of Supernatural PS as a separate thing from just PS didn't exist before CB1. Just a distinction that if you were a supernatural creature, you could lift and carry more because of that.

Certainly no weird rules on "Supernatural creatures cant get attribute bonuses", or anything of the sort.

[Blue_Lion]

(though why you would have to remember when you have the RMB lying around i'd assume, is beyond me).

I no longer have my books. When I was deployed my storage unit was broken into and cleaned out, and I have been slowly replacing them, but books that are no longer the standard are not high priority to rebuy.

**The point was I remembered a time when the rules switched to allow physical skills to add to creatures that could not benefit from them before. It was a big deal when the group I was playing with got the book and talked about it. The fact the rule had changed to allow something that was blocked before.

**But as I said it was if I recall write or my memory. Your statement is basically implying I am lazy for not bothering to check a book that you think I should have.

*my point was I remembered a time that it changed in rifts(but it seams my timeline of thought was off) so there may be a rule tucked in the early rifts books that blocks it that was later over turned so it may not be HU that the poster is remembering it from(at the time the group the change was a big deal so we discussed it and we did not play HU so I do not think it was based off a line in a HU power.). There are allot of books for rifts to sift through(and I do not have all the books at this time), as it is not the currant rule searching for that rule for a debate would not be overly productive. Finding obscure out of date rules can be quite time consuming especially if you use hard copies and not digital.-So there is a possibility that a no longer valid rule may be in a book.

[Axelmania]

RUE 289
Demons and other supernatural beings... have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.
and
Creatures of Magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also mega-damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

This rules out Demons, Supernatural Beings, and Creatures of Magic from being able to have SDC (unless specified), because these creature types all have by canon MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

That section also rules out any non-immortal beings from being supernatural beings, if I recall right?

So either you throw out these RUE changes or you need to retcon non-immortal formerly-supernatural races to be no longer supernatural, in which case we have an even-broader-than-before selection of possible exceptions.

There COULD in theory be a MDC creature that is not a Demon, Supernatural Being, or a Creature of Magic, and that is therefore not explicitly forbidden in this passage from having SDC.

Not really a theory, there are several MDC races not explicitly called supernatural/COM.

it's called a cyborg. of course, good luck trying to convince the GM that your tongue and brain have all the SDC from weightlifting.

Cyborgs have been a longstanding controversy when it comes to SDC/HP, but the issue was resolved in canon:
RUE 47
Combat Cyborgs/Full Conversion Borgs... are impervious to...any attacks or weapons that do damage direct to Hit Points (is considered a Mega-Damage being now.).

So Borgs are a kind of Mega-Damage being that is NOT a demon, supernatural being, or a creature of magic,
and we know that they don't have Hit Points,
which makes it seem entirely unlikely that they have any SDC, as they are "Mega-Damage beings."

I call this "partial conversion erasure"

[drewkitty ~..~]

Has the old 1st ed core books so I could answer questions about the playing them.
And then there were conversations here on the board and in the chats, ages ago, by people who played the PB system a lot longer than I.

It might be that there was the SNPS in the scrapers book...my brain is telling me it came out before the HU 2nd ed. But I can't compare the printing dates anymore.

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE 289
Demons and other supernatural beings... have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.
and
Creatures of Magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also mega-damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

This rules out Demons, Supernatural Beings, and Creatures of Magic from being able to have SDC (unless specified), because these creature types all have by canon MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

That section also rules out any non-immortal beings from being supernatural beings, if I recall right?

Nope.
Maybe crack a book next time.

There COULD in theory be a MDC creature that is not a Demon, Supernatural Being, or a Creature of Magic, and that is therefore not explicitly forbidden in this passage from having SDC.

Not really a theory, there are several MDC races not explicitly called supernatural/COM.[/quote]

"Not explicitly called supernatural/COM" would place that race in the realm of "may or may not be."
Which means "in theory."

[Blue_Lion]

RUE 289
Demons and other supernatural beings... have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.
and
Creatures of Magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are also mega-damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

This rules out Demons, Supernatural Beings, and Creatures of Magic from being able to have SDC (unless specified), because these creature types all have by canon MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.

That section also rules out any non-immortal beings from being supernatural beings, if I recall right?

So either you throw out these RUE changes or you need to retcon non-immortal formerly-supernatural races to be no longer supernatural, in which case we have an even-broader-than-before selection of possible exceptions.

The rule he quoting is not really that much of a retcon. Back in conversion book 1 unrevised we had a rule about sdc and MDC.

"page 22
Note: Hit points and S.D.C. are not applicable to mega-damage creatures. As previously described, the M.D.C. effectively works as hit points."

So there was an idea that you could not have sdc/hit points and MDC. This actually covers more than the RUE write up. Basically before RUE we had a rule that they could not be together because MDC was effectively hit points. So examples with both MDC and sdc/hit points are either acceptations to this old rule or a typo.

While it is possible there are acceptations there is a rule that says creatures
can not have hit points sdc and MDC that has been on the books for decades.

[Fenris2020]

What's fun to think about is, who taught the supernaturally strong character the physical skills?
You really don't want to be an SDC being trying to teach a Godling how to box or wrestle.

[Axelmania]

Back in conversion book 1 unrevised we had a rule about sdc and MDC.

"page 22
Note: Hit points and S.D.C. are not applicable to mega-damage creatures. As previously described, the M.D.C. effectively works as hit points."

So there was an idea that you could not have sdc/hit points and MDC.

I ended up finding that on my own and wanted to come back to thread and mention it but I got distracted

Of course... that writeup in CB1 directly contradicts how VK rope up the VIs, so perhaps 'not applicable' just means as it applies to dying?

[MadGreenSon]

Now I want to design a gym for supernaturally strong gym rats. That oughta be fun. Have the free weights made out of some magical/enchanted material that's denser/heavier than osmium with some workout machines that could be pure tech, but built to a rougher, more industrial aesthetic than more conventional gym machines are.

Cardio workouts could be fairly much the same as with non supernatural gyms, but with that level of stamina they'd need to be pretty intense to be a proper workout.