Tarn lied re CS aggression. Cause of Tolkeen militarization?

[Axelmania]

RMB 137 "The World, Circa 100 P.A."
RMB 139 "Just recently, CS troops have been dispatched to Minnesota"
also RMB 139: (Editor's note: August 101 P.A.)

Why did Tarn concoct the lie of CS dispatching troops to attack Tolkeen a year prior to it actually happening? This could've caused the very Tolkeen military buildup that provoked the CS into dispatching troops to begin with...

But maybe not... depending on when the book actually came out

I've also begun to wonder when the (unauthorized collection of letters, mind you) book "Traversing Our Modern World" was actually published...

RMB137 describes TOMW as "span the last two decades and include several dozen missives that are as recent as three years old".

The latter part presumably would refer to the most recent ones... so if something dated 100 PA was three years old wouldn't that mean that TOMW was published in 103 PA?

An interesting thing about this passage is also this:

I have let you rascals buy me for the price of safe passage to England

If we look forward to WB3, page 7 has a letter addressed to Plato in May 103 after she arrives to England from Wormwood... and we know it was Shifters of Worldgate who arranged her passage from Wormwood to England, so it is presumably these guys she wrote this section of the book for, presumably sometime between January and April of 103 PA...

This of course contrasts with page 39 of Vampire Kingdoms where after her Feb 101 PA letter we're told "has not been heard of since this last letter", placing VK somewhere between Feb101 and May103.

Rifts England mentions ~2 years passed for her "since my last letter" which is odd because that would imply she last wrote May 101 PA (not February 101 PA which VK said was her last contact) when she comments on only 6 months passing for her. I think she meant 2 years in respect to when she left ("spring of 101 PA" from DB1p29 could've been May) rather than when she last wrote.

Basically 1 month for her on Wormwood worked out to 4 months passing on RUE... so perhaps when she wrote it was 100 PA she was actually wrong?

We know it was 101 (not 100) when she left Earth and ended up on Wormwood, so when she told the Wormwoodians she wrote this for (guaranteeing passage to England) it was "as of 100 PA" it might be that she had only just begun 101 (only Jan and some of Feb passed) so she was relating the year which had CONCLUDED...

So even though she wrote this AFTER the vampire kingdoms letter, people didn't actually know that she wrote the "100 PA" stuff post-February.

Tarn doesn't date her entries (I'm not sure why, she seemed surprise at the different time flow so you think she would've put in what she THOUGHT was the day, even though she'd be lagging behind) but we can get some sense of the time she spent there from some parts...

pg 30 "next afternoon"
pg 31 "next five weeks"
pg 33 "a day and a half" .. "a week"
pg 34 "two extra days"
pg 37 "a few weeks"

Based on that 6+few weeks and 4 days... I think we can assume it took her at LEAST two of her six months Wormwood-time (8/24 of her Rifts Earth absentee months) to get to Worldgate. Probably much longer because there's a lot of gaps.

Tarn writes that "our price of passage home was autographing all of his books with a personal message for each" but we know she spent a good deal of time there and did OTHER favors to get passage too (like meet people) so this probably includes writing "the world 100 PA" which somehow made its way into circulation around 103 PA, probably PRIOR to her actually getting back to England.

IE that sneaky Worldgate guy leaked her letter before actually sending her back, for max profits.

Actually all my prior notes were pointless because I'm now noticing on pg 40...

we would have to wait five more weeks until we could leave

I think we can get something pretty exact here. 5 weeks in Wormwood time is 20 weeks in Rifts time, which works out to ~4.6 months. She wrote Playto in May 103 but I don't know if she began writing immediately upon arrival in England. If we assume she returned in April 103 then she could've arrived in Worldgate and began writing the "100 PA" portion (still thinking it was 101 PA) in December 102 PA.

[Orin J.]

I think you're confusing the siege itself with the totality of Coalition actions against Tolkeen. Tolkeen's proximity and visibility means that it was an impossible target for aggressions to resist and the coalition had probably been conducting small-scale military conflicts against them for years before they finally decided they had the force needed to destroy it.

let's not fall into the delusion the coalition of all factions needs an excuse to wipe out anything not fitting their ideals.

[Axelmania]

Tarn wrote "Circa 100 PA" so the question is whether "editor's note" is meant to be a note from Tarn (in-universe, since it was presumably published ~103 PA adjacent to her Wormwood>Earth trip) or a note from Siembieda.

Given that she wrote this prior to actually going to England (unless perhaps she agreed to write it in England and send it back through the Rift to worldgate?) it doesn't seem feasible that she would be aware of the "August 101" siege of Minnesota, since that happened AFTER she disappeared in May of 101. Unless perhaps Worldgate gets regular news of what happens in Rifts North America?

I think more likely this was meant (as most "editor's note" in books tend to be interpreted) as a note from Siembieda himself. Meaning that he established that the CS actually invaded Minnesota AFTER the "Earth as of 100PA" letter from Tarn included in the unauthorized compilation.

[Killer Cyborg]

RMB 137 "The World, Circa 100 P.A."
RMB 139 "Just recently, CS troops have been dispatched to Minnesota"
also RMB 139: (Editor's note: August 101 P.A.)

Why did Tarn concoct the lie of CS dispatching troops to attack Tolkeen a year prior to it actually happening?

There's a difference between "dispatching troops" to an area, and in "dispatching troops to attack" an area.
If there's more on that page that says anything about the CS attacking anybody, please quote it.

[Hotrod]

I'm no fan of Erin Tarn's, and I have my own interpretation of her motives and her "unauthorized letters" getting published.

In this case, I think it's a stretch to call that line a lie, because she's not trying to deceive. It might not even be inaccurate.

[Axelmania]

There's a difference between "dispatching troops" to an area, and in "dispatching troops to attack" an area.
If there's more on that page that says anything about the CS attacking anybody, please quote it.

Tarn titles that section on Minnesota and "a place under siege" and "target of their paranoia and imperial expansion". She describes their intent as "progress ever northward" and "engage in search and destroy missions" regarding the state in general.

"I fear Tolkeen has no hope for survival" is pretty obvious fearmongering that the CS presence is a plan to attack Tolkeen, not just pick off Xiticix or however one might want to interpret that.

The issue here is that Tarn wrote about CS dispatching troops in 100 PA and the editor's note says says it was actually 101 PA. So KS is either admitting that Tarn is wrong, or this was Tarn correcting herself as an editor, or whoever edited the unauthorized copy of her book, correcting her.

I think it's a stretch to call that line a lie, because she's not trying to deceive. It might not even be inaccurate.

Either 100 PA or 101 PA is accurate as the year when the CS first began the Minnesotan dispatch. Hopefully we can figure out when that is.

Sedition 105 mentions that in 103 PA (when Skeleton Raiders 1st began deployment) there were two field armies "already deployed on Tolkeen's borders" which I think implies the CS already had a military presence in Minnesota at that point (being just on the tip of Tolkeen's borders means you are already within Minnesota)

Sedition 101 mentions that in 71 PA Karl had deployed "permanent and mobile outposts just inside the borders of old Minnesota" but if we assume that this is what Tarn refers to, it creates problems:

1) why would she call that 'recently' ? That was 29 years prior to 100 PA.
2) why would the editor's note specify 101 PA?

[Nekira Sudacne]

It never says how many troops. One would presumably deploy scouting forces well in advance of major attacks.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well Tarn is on the 'side' of the Magic users, and is very anti CS...

While I don't really attribute anything this clever to the Palladium writers/books, what you're witnessing very well COULD be Revisionist 'history', written by an "Authority" with the purposefull intent of making the CS appear more the aggressor than they 'were'.

Remember also Tarn and Plato told Tolkeen to get out of dodge and Creed basicly told them to get bent. He and his people dove face first into 'evil' at that point.

But yeah. Tarn -has- an agenda. That's never really hidden, nor how anti CS she is. If she wrote them aggresing a year or more before they did, it wouldn't surprise me. Not one bit.

I just don't attribute that much forethought to the little blurbs from her. Someone at Palladium just didn't do the math. Simple as that.

[Shark_Force]

according to the books, the CS has been planning to do a full-scale invasion of tolkeen since the setting was invented. and they haven't been secretive about it, either.

I would almost be surprised if the CS wasn't routinely sending troops into tolkeen, and this was simply a group that caught Erin Tarn's attention for some reason; perhaps it was a little larger than usual, perhaps it was simply noticed sooner and tolkeen managed to get soldiers sent in time to actually have a battle, perhaps she was simply visiting the area at the time, who knows, but the CS probably did send soldiers... which might have basically just been business as usual, as far as both sides were concerned by that point.

[Axelmania]

I would almost be surprised if the CS wasn't routinely sending troops into tolkeen, and this was simply a group that caught Erin Tarn's attention for some reason

I don't think this explains how a letter Tarn wrote about Earth in 100PA includes a note about 101 PA.

If Tarn made the note, then why wouldn't she title her letter "Earth in 101 PA" ?

If KS made the note, then that's word-of-god the recentness of CS presence in Minnesota was 101 PA, meaning Tarn wrote about it in 100PA before it actually happened and called it 'recent'.

One possible explanation for this might be that Tarn gets information from clairvoyants so perhaps they say the CS entering Minnesota before it happened and put it in because she believes the clairvoyant's visions always happen, or at least happen often enough that it's worth getting word out in advance?

Could be a self-fulfilling prophecy though, if military buildup to fend off this predicted invasion was what actually prompted the decision to invade that early. Tolkeen was previously not the #1 priority for the CS, after all.

[Orin J.]

I would almost be surprised if the CS wasn't routinely sending troops into tolkeen, and this was simply a group that caught Erin Tarn's attention for some reason

I don't think this explains how a letter Tarn wrote about Earth in 100PA includes a note about 101 PA.

If Tarn made the note, then why wouldn't she title her letter "Earth in 101 PA" ?

If KS made the note, then that's word-of-god the recentness of CS presence in Minnesota was 101 PA, meaning Tarn wrote about it in 100PA before it actually happened and called it 'recent'.

One possible explanation for this might be that Tarn gets information from clairvoyants so perhaps they say the CS entering Minnesota before it happened and put it in because she believes the clairvoyant's visions always happen, or at least happen often enough that it's worth getting word out in advance?

Could be a self-fulfilling prophecy though, if military buildup to fend off this predicted invasion was what actually prompted the decision to invade that early. Tolkeen was previously not the #1 priority for the CS, after all.

i have to ask, are you ignoring the idea that the CS was sending in significant military forces to attack tolkeen's borders before the now-famed siege, or are you rejecting it?

[Axelmania]

i have to ask, are you ignoring the idea that the CS was sending in significant military forces to attack tolkeen's borders before the now-famed siege, or are you rejecting it?

From my March 25 post:

Sedition 101 mentions that in 71 PA Karl had deployed "permanent and mobile outposts just inside the borders of old Minnesota" but if we assume that this is what Tarn refers to, it creates problems:

1) why would she call that 'recently' ? That was 29 years prior to 100 PA.
2) why would the editor's note specify 101 PA?

So the answer is neither: I acknowledged and accepted this added note in Sedition (which I think is the first introduction of a pre-101 attack? Not sure) however I don't believe the establishment of those outposts could reasonably be what Tarn meant by "recently" (29 years prior is not recent) or explain the 101 PA note (which is 30 years later)

[Killer Cyborg]

i have to ask, are you ignoring the idea that the CS was sending in significant military forces to attack tolkeen's borders before the now-famed siege, or are you rejecting it?

From my March 25 post:

Sedition 101 mentions that in 71 PA Karl had deployed "permanent and mobile outposts just inside the borders of old Minnesota" but if we assume that this is what Tarn refers to, it creates problems:

1) why would she call that 'recently' ? That was 29 years prior to 100 PA.

"Why" is not a problem.
It is a question.

[Blue_Lion]

Well Tarn is on the 'side' of the Magic users, and is very anti CS...

While I don't really attribute anything this clever to the Palladium writers/books, what you're witnessing very well COULD be Revisionist 'history', written by an "Authority" with the purposefull intent of making the CS appear more the aggressor than they 'were'.

Remember also Tarn and Plato told Tolkeen to get out of dodge and Creed basicly told them to get bent. He and his people dove face first into 'evil' at that point.

But yeah. Tarn -has- an agenda. That's never really hidden, nor how anti CS she is. If she wrote them aggresing a year or more before they did, it wouldn't surprise me. Not one bit.

I just don't attribute that much forethought to the little blurbs from her. Someone at Palladium just didn't do the math. Simple as that.

Than they where? They where aggressive when the game first came out. They originally the random combat encounters. They where suppose to be aggressive.-All books written at the time the CS was shown as aggressive. They where trying to trick juicers to get an army in Juicer uprising. Even the Colation war world book had an aggressive stance on the CS.

As to the original post. Read up, it is a exert from her book.-
What follows is a brief world overview written by historian and explorer, Erin Tarn . It is an excerpt from the most recent book that bears her name, Traversing Our Modern World. The book is an unauthorized collection of letters and notes from Erin Tarn to various colleagues,

So the date could be the date of the letter. While it does have a heading of cira 100, it was not written in just that year. So in context there is no reason to think she was writing about the future. It even describes what forces they had sent in.

[Axelmania]

i have to ask, are you ignoring the idea that the CS was sending in significant military forces to attack tolkeen's borders before the now-famed siege, or are you rejecting it?

From my March 25 post:

Sedition 101 mentions that in 71 PA Karl had deployed "permanent and mobile outposts just inside the borders of old Minnesota" but if we assume that this is what Tarn refers to, it creates problems:

1) why would she call that 'recently' ? That was 29 years prior to 100 PA.

"Why" is not a problem.
It is a question.

"we do not know why" or "there is seemingly no logical explanation for X" is a problem, no need to split hairs this extremely KC.

Than they where? They where aggressive when the game first came out.

They originally the random combat encounters.

What are you referring to here? The GM screen or something? Trying to recall when/where we saw earliest random encounter tables. I think I remember a couple in Atlantis, not sure about VK, maybe SB1?

They where suppose to be aggressive.-All books written at the time the CS was shown as aggressive. They where trying to trick juicers to get an army in Juicer uprising. Even the Colation war world book had an aggressive stance on the CS.

I wouldn't interpret that as 'always'. The CS was brought together by the FOM invasion at which point they were defensive, much like NGR was until the Gargoyles started wiping out villages. Humans did engage in counter-aggression once attacked to prevent further catastrophes, but I don't know if that warrants characterizing them as aggressive ALWAYS.

So the date could be the date of the letter. While it does have a heading of cira 100, it was not written in just that year. So in context there is no reason to think she was writing about the future. It even describes what forces they had sent in.

You are proposing "our world, 100" was added by whoever compiled TOMW from Tarn's letters, and not the heading of one of Tarn's letters itself?

Do you think the same of 101, or do you think 101 is an out-of-universe note to players only (does not actually appear in Traversing) by KS?

[Killer Cyborg]

i have to ask, are you ignoring the idea that the CS was sending in significant military forces to attack tolkeen's borders before the now-famed siege, or are you rejecting it?

From my March 25 post:

Sedition 101 mentions that in 71 PA Karl had deployed "permanent and mobile outposts just inside the borders of old Minnesota" but if we assume that this is what Tarn refers to, it creates problems:

1) why would she call that 'recently' ? That was 29 years prior to 100 PA.

"Why" is not a problem.
It is a question.

"we do not know why" or "there is seemingly no logical explanation for X" is a problem, no need to split hairs this extremely KC.

"We do not know why" isn't a problem either in this case.
At worst, it's an inconvenience for the very few people who care at all.

[Axelmania]

"We do not know why" isn't a problem either in this case.
At worst, it's an inconvenience for the very few people who care at all.

Inconveniences are literally tiny problems so they are still problems. I don't want to quibble on the subjective measurement of a problem.

Perhaps I should rephrase this: I do not think Tarn would use "recently" to refer to an event 29 years ago, so I do not have faith in the interpretation that she is referencing the outposts that Karl built in the 70s.

[Killer Cyborg]

"We do not know why" isn't a problem either in this case.
At worst, it's an inconvenience for the very few people who care at all.

Inconveniences are literally tiny problems so they are still problems. I don't want to quibble on the subjective measurement of a problem.

Perhaps I should rephrase this: I do not think Tarn would use "recently" to refer to an event 29 years ago, so I do not have faith in the interpretation that she is referencing the outposts that Karl built in the 70s.

Okay. And if she was NOT referencing that, then... so what?

[Axelmania]

if she was NOT referencing that, then... so what?

We wonder if she was referencing something else, making something up, etc.

[Orin J.]

if she was NOT referencing that, then... so what?

We wonder if she was referencing something else, making something up, etc.

Gee axel, i dunno. maybe it was the consistent ongoing warfare with tolkeen that the coalition has been doing since pretty much their formation, that was showing no signs of ending even though she reasonably would hope for it to? You think that could've been it?

[drewkitty ~..~]

*whips out Occam's shaving implement*

I think there is a more simple answer, there was no rereading of what was written before, just before writing the latter writing. As such errors were made in the latter writings.

[Killer Cyborg]

if she was NOT referencing that, then... so what?

We wonder if she was referencing something else, making something up, etc.

I wonder stuff all the time.
Doesn't mean that there's a problem.
It just means that I'm wondering about something.
Life doesn't guarantee you answers to idle curiosity, and neither does fiction.

[Axelmania]

We wonder if she was referencing something else, making something up, etc.

I wonder stuff all the time.
Doesn't mean that there's a problem.
It just means that I'm wondering about something.
Life doesn't guarantee you answers to idle curiosity, and neither does fiction.
[/quote]
Whether ignorance is a problem is certainly a subjective issue according to one's values.

I could wonder whether or not there is any food to eat. Whether or not that's a problem could depend on how hungry I was.

Rather than philosophize about the subjectivity of what is or isn't a problem, I think we generally just accept it's okay to talk about curiosities and plot holes.

My saying "it creates problems" is problems according to my values, but perhaps not your own. Feel free to substitute whatever noun you feel appropriate.

[Orin J.]

Your "values" are literally nothing there. you're attempting to shoehorn in an argument that doesn't exist for the sake of reframing CS aggression as tarn's personal prejudice, which wouldn't fit with the entire setting and the established facts we know about that time period. You can't simply argue "but if we ignore all these facts that would answer my question in a way i don't like, isn't there reason to be concerned at how there's no satisfactory answer?", it's disingenuous.

tarn is responding to CS troop buildups in minnesota mentioned from the very first book, that's all. they've been attacking the area long before they made the decision to wipe the city out completely with new, updated forces. you just want to ignore that fact. ignoring details for the sake of arguing isn't lively debate it's being obtuse, and it's honestly gotten to the point of being a bit rude.

[Killer Cyborg]

Whether ignorance is a problem is certainly a subjective issue according to one's values.

Anything can be argued to be subjective.

Rather than philosophize about the subjectivity of what is or isn't a problem, I think we generally just accept it's okay to talk about curiosities and plot holes.

Sure, it is... but in this case you're not talking about it as a curiosity; you're talking about it as if this was a problem, and it's not.
It's not a plot hole either.
It's simply YOU--and only you--reading a passage that the rest of us thinks makes sense, and holding it up as if you'd found some kind of smoking gun or health code violation.

My saying "it creates problems" is problems according to my values, but perhaps not your own. Feel free to substitute whatever noun you feel appropriate.

That noun would be "nothing."
This is a nothing that you have found, and it means nothing.
It raise no questions.
It has no meaning.
It is nothing.

[Hotrod]

Your "values" are literally nothing there. you're attempting to shoehorn in an argument that doesn't exist for the sake of reframing CS aggression as tarn's personal prejudice, which wouldn't fit with the entire setting and the established facts we know about that time period. You can't simply argue "but if we ignore all these facts that would answer my question in a way i don't like, isn't there reason to be concerned at how there's no satisfactory answer?", it's disingenuous.

tarn is responding to CS troop buildups in minnesota mentioned from the very first book, that's all. they've been attacking the area long before they made the decision to wipe the city out completely with new, updated forces. you just want to ignore that fact. ignoring details for the sake of arguing isn't lively debate it's being obtuse, and it's honestly gotten to the point of being a bit rude.

Tarn is a strange character. Her perspective is so closely tied in with the "God's-eye-view" of the narration that, in Aftermath, the update on world events seems to oscillate in and out of her character's perspective and the perspective of an omniscient character who knows things she couldn't possibly know. Someone on these boards pointed out a few years ago that her name is an anagram for "inerrant." Her perspectives take up far more real estate than any other character in canon. Thus, questioning the legitimacy of her opinions often requires questioning the precepts of the setting itself.

Personally, I get a little tired of the "Nazis BAD, Books GOOD" aesop.

There are many people who are fine taking her perspective at face value with a great credibility due to her special status in the published books. There are many people who find her grating and prefer to think of her perspectives as flawed. I have no beef with either take, though I sympathize more with those who would prefer to see her canon portrayal be more nuanced and balanced by alternate perspectives.

I think there's room for a fascinating ethical debate between a Lazlo-like "welcome everyone" approach and an exclusive "humanity first" approach, and I suspect many people would like to see this in canon. There's also plenty of potential for debating where and how to draw the lines for societies with more moderate positions. Unfortunately, the C.S. is so caught up in the ideals of fascism that I don't see this happen in canon, and it's so dominant in the main region of the setting that what little we know about Lazlo and Erin Tarn is mostly given in the context of how they relate to the CS.

Finally, I would love to see a Lazlo sourcebook come out, especially one that presents a "warts and all" portrayal of the city-state and the drawbacks of their "welcome everyone" policies.

[Axelmania]

Your "values" are literally nothing there.
you're attempting to shoehorn in an argument that doesn't exist for the sake of reframing CS aggression as tarn's personal prejudice, which wouldn't fit with the entire setting and the established facts we know about that time period.

It is an established fact that Erin Tarn wrote something dated 100 PA stating that the CS had put troops into Minnesota.

It is an established fact that there is an "editor's note" that this actually happened in 101 PA.

Ergo: I think an out-of-universe note from Kevin Siembieda or one of RMB's editors (Alex Marciniszyn or Thorn Bartold) telling us that Erin Tarn wrote something wrong. I interpret that as "lying".

This is my interpretation but I am opening the window to potential disagreement. For example, you could argue this note wasn't from KS/AM/TB, but from someone else. like whoever illegally published the book. In which case maybe Tarn wasn't wrong, maybe the anonymous in-universe editor was wrong.

It is also possible I am wrong in assuming Tarn was lying, but that she just made a mistake:

1) Perhaps she thought the CS had occupied Minnesota when they hadn't.
2) Perhaps she thought it was 100 PA when it was actually 101 PA.

I've explored my reasons for both theories. She could've gotten misleading reports while in Mexico/Wormwood. We KNOW she was surprised at how much time passed when arrived in England via Worldgate.

Perhaps Tarn isn't to blame: but "Traversing" could possibly be to blame if it was sending reports of CS occupation prior to the CS actually occupying.

Here's a problem with one of the possible explanations I've proposed though: if Tarn did get the year wrong, why would the 101 PA note ONLY be put in the section about Minnesota? Why wouldn't you put the note ("she actually wrote this in 101 PA) adjacent to the title of the book's section?

You can't simply argue "but if we ignore all these facts that would answer my question in a way i don't like, isn't there reason to be concerned at how there's no satisfactory answer?", it's disingenuous.

This overview is too broad, it's unclear to me what facts you're saying I'm ignoring.

It could be that you're viewing me as ignoring a fact where I'm viewing it as simply interpreting it differently than you.

tarn is responding to CS troop buildups in minnesota mentioned from the very first book, that's all.

The problem is WHEN:

RMB 137 "The World, Circa 100 P.A. (Post-Apocalyptic Calendar)"
RMB 139 "Just recently (Editor's note: August 101 P. A.), CS troops have been dispatched to Minnesota."

Who, in your view, is "Editor" meant to represent here?

A major question I'm posing here: do people reading TOMW in-universe get to see that parenthesized note, or is it just for gamers (players/GM) benefit?

they've been attacking the area long before they made the decision to wipe the city out completely with new, updated forces.
you just want to ignore that fact.
ignoring details for the sake of arguing isn't lively debate it's being obtuse, and it's honestly gotten to the point of being a bit rude.

I'd like specifics regarding your claims.

Sedition 103-104 covers the Crisis Timeline from 100PA to 101 PA. Prior to that is a note about 88 PA.

Where else is August 101 mentioned besides RMB 139?

"Terrible Secrets" talks about "decades of constant military threats from Chi-Town" but that could simply refer to CS general military buildup which serves a variety of purposes. It doesn't specify troop dispatch to Minnesota.

72 PA (Sedition pg 101) we know Karl ordered several outposts "just inside" Minnesota borders as part of "preemptive operations" beyond CS borders. It's likely soldiers do not permanently live at those outposts, so they probably cycle in and out for terms of service.

Assuming those outposts were maintained (there's no later mention I can see of their dismantling/withdrawal) that probably does mean the CS constantly cycles troops back and forth from them for tours of duty and time to come back to Chi-Town to visit family or similar.

If that's been going on for THIRTY YEARS however, why would Tarn comment on that pattern as "just recently" as if it were some kind of new alarming development?

88 PA (Sedition pg 102) was merely the CS increasing military buildup "along the borders" of Minnesota, so it doesn't mention any kind of increase WITHIN the borders, at the outposts established 16 years prior, assuming they still existed.

Keep in mind the "Skeleton Raiders" event (CS testing new prototype armor in Minnesota) wasn't until 103 PA.

There is also info about how hesitant Karl was to do Minnesota engagements (as of 92 PA at least) in the description of the Xiticix Killer:

the Emperor wanetd to launch some sort of offensive against the alien invaders, besides border patrols and the occasional surgical strike against insurgents who slipped into Wisconsin, Michigan and lower Minnesota

So let's assume Tarn was technically correct about the CS "dispatching troops to Minnesota" ~100PA (mysterious Editor's note being August 101 PA notwithstanding) it still begs the question why she would make it sound like something new when troop-cycling between the outposts the CS had kept just inside the Minnesotan border has been happening constantly for 3 decades.

It's simply YOU--and only you--reading a passage that the rest of us thinks makes sense, and holding it up as if you'd found some kind of smoking gun or health code violation.

KS whatever sense you've made out of the August 101 PA Editor's note, I think you've yet to share it in one of your replies.

There's a difference in value between non-objection to a passage and actually explaining your interpretation of it (feel free to have more than one in mind, as I do) so it can be subject to scrutiny.

That noun would be "nothing."
This is a nothing that you have found, and it means nothing.
It raise no questions.
It has no meaning.
It is nothing.

You're just being silly now KC, obviously every passage in the books has meaning.

"Who is the editor?" is the question I have raised: therefore it has raised a question.

There are many people who are fine taking her perspective at face value with a great credibility due to her special status in the published books.
There are many people who find her grating and prefer to think of her perspectives as flawed.
I have no beef with either take, though I sympathize more with those who would prefer to see her canon portrayal be more nuanced and balanced by alternate perspectives.

I definitely take a beef with the "great credibility" perspective, given we've been told from the outset (RMB 137 foreword to "A World Overview" presumably from KS to us gamers) not to do so:

it is the most accurate and inclusive journal/atlas of the Rifts world available on the black market.
Unfortunately, that is not saying much,
as even the intrepid historian Tarn has vast gaps in her knowledge of the world.

Interesting questions about how to interpret this arise from the world-building that DB1/WB3 created:

1) what year did she write this letter?

2) who did she write it for?

3) what year did she think it was when she wrote it?

4) who is the Editor?

5) who is the Editor's note visible to?

That's what I'm exploring here because the answers are important to imagining both the impact of TOMW and the credibility of Tarn at the time of her writing.

The most generous interpretation I can give here is that Tarn wrote this while off-Earth (in Worldgate) based on:

I have let you rascals buy me (or more to the point, my services) for the price of safe passage to England.

If she wrote it later then she should definitely know it's not 100 PA anymore (2 years had passed, she got back in 102 PA) but if she wrote it in Worldgate, she would still think it was 100 PA, since she was surprised to know of the time lapse only upon getting back.

If the CS did a troop surge in August 101 PA but Tarn wrote of it thinking it was still 100 PA, this probably means that she was acting on rumors that made their way from Rifts Earth to Worldgate, yet somehow despite getting interdimensional rumors, somehow didn't pick up on the time lapse, which seems strange.

I would think if there was such a constant newsflow from Earth>Wormwood that you could hear about an August 101 PA troop surge (which for some reason Sedition fails to mention in its Crisis Timeline) that you'd also hear about what the current year is on the Post-Apocalyptic calendar.

[Orin J.]

you've tied yourself into huge knots to ignore the basic facts about the CS on this. they've had military forces in minnisota for ages, which you've admitted to and they've been hostile to tolkeen for ages as well. The CS is making punitive attacks on tolkeen and the troops erin is describing is just more of those. you've imagined that she's mentioning some strategic maneuver and not the normal rotation of troops into an area where you're conducting actions, and everyone else is fully aware she means the latter.

there's no conspiracy here, just you linking unrelated facts in your head and then refusing to understand you were wrong on them.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's simply YOU--and only you--reading a passage that the rest of us thinks makes sense, and holding it up as if you'd found some kind of smoking gun or health code violation.

KS whatever sense you've made out of the August 101 PA Editor's note, I think you've yet to share it in one of your replies.

There's a difference in value between non-objection to a passage and actually explaining your interpretation of it (feel free to have more than one in mind, as I do) so it can be subject to scrutiny.

It means nothing.

That noun would be "nothing."
This is a nothing that you have found, and it means nothing.
It raise no questions.
It has no meaning.
It is nothing.

You're just being silly now KC, obviously every passage in the books has meaning.

Quit yer trollin'!

[Hotrod]

There are many people who are fine taking her perspective at face value with a great credibility due to her special status in the published books.
There are many people who find her grating and prefer to think of her perspectives as flawed.
I have no beef with either take, though I sympathize more with those who would prefer to see her canon portrayal be more nuanced and balanced by alternate perspectives.

I definitely take a beef with the "great credibility" perspective, given we've been told from the outset (RMB 137 foreword to "A World Overview" presumably from KS to us gamers) not to do so:

it is the most accurate and inclusive journal/atlas of the Rifts world available on the black market.
Unfortunately, that is not saying much,
as even the intrepid historian Tarn has vast gaps in her knowledge of the world.

Interesting questions about how to interpret this arise from the world-building that DB1/WB3 created:

1) what year did she write this letter?

2) who did she write it for?

3) what year did she think it was when she wrote it?

4) who is the Editor?

5) who is the Editor's note visible to?

That's what I'm exploring here because the answers are important to imagining both the impact of TOMW and the credibility of Tarn at the time of her writing.

The most generous interpretation I can give here is that Tarn wrote this while off-Earth (in Worldgate) based on:

I have let you rascals buy me (or more to the point, my services) for the price of safe passage to England.

If she wrote it later then she should definitely know it's not 100 PA anymore (2 years had passed, she got back in 102 PA) but if she wrote it in Worldgate, she would still think it was 100 PA, since she was surprised to know of the time lapse only upon getting back.

If the CS did a troop surge in August 101 PA but Tarn wrote of it thinking it was still 100 PA, this probably means that she was acting on rumors that made their way from Rifts Earth to Worldgate, yet somehow despite getting interdimensional rumors, somehow didn't pick up on the time lapse, which seems strange.

I would think if there was such a constant newsflow from Earth>Wormwood that you could hear about an August 101 PA troop surge (which for some reason Sedition fails to mention in its Crisis Timeline) that you'd also hear about what the current year is on the Post-Apocalyptic calendar.

If someone says something that isn't true, there are several ways to interpret it:
1. The person may simply be repeating bad information that they think is true. This may be due to the person having incorrect information in the first place, due to believing their own mistaken interpretations to be objective truth, due to the person "filling in the blanks" in their knowledge and reporting it as fact, or due to other reasons that have nothing to do with intentional deception.
2. The person may be deliberately trying to report something that isn't true in order to deceive.

Many people mis-label a #1 (factually incorrect, but not deceitful) statement as a #2 lie. My experience is that ignorance, incompetence, and bias are behind the vast majority of false statements, while malicious deceptions are a small minority.

I wrote the below segment a few years ago as part of an idea for a Lazlo Explorer's Guild I was thinking about submitting it to the Rifter. The Explorer's Guild would gather detailed information, verify facts, and publish maps and traveler's guides. I wrote this passage to illustrate the difference between Erin Tarn's approach and what I was going for with the Explorer's Guild. It illustrates my interpretation of Erin Tarn and explains some of her factual misstatements and complaints about unauthorized publications without impugning her moral character.

The novice explorer shook his head, confused. “But Erin Tarn said–”

“–Do not invoke Erin Tarn if you want to be taken seriously around here.” The master glowered. “Our city's great celebrity and hoarder-in-chief is no friend to true exploration, true science, or true scholarship. We used to work with her, but she burned those bridges long ago.”

“What happened?”

“Thirty years ago, Erin pitched an idea for a grand expedition to explore an area, study artifacts, and do some demographic and political research on local populations and government. The end product would be a series of 'Traveler's Guides' that would provide all the detailed information one would need to understand and navigate the various regions of North America. It was an ambitious project. We signed a contract; Erin would get a fee and author credits for the guide, while The Guild would own the rights and the royalties.”

“What went wrong?”

“Nothing, at first. The expedition headed out, and Erin sent back regular letters telling us where she'd been, who she'd met, her general impressions of the area, and a summary of her adventures. These informal reports got us excited back here in Lazlo, and we circulated a few of them to keep our donors investing.”

“Then she returned and presented us with a pile of junk: poorly-edited opinion pieces, statements with little or no actual data to back them up, some self-aggrandizing audio and video recordings of interviews, compilations of second-hand rumors she had heard, and a few hand-scrawled maps. She seemed to have focused most of her efforts on collecting souvenirs and historical artifacts that had little to do with the expedition. All these artifacts went straight to her private collection.”

“But she made many trips with the Guild's backing. Why keep her on?”

“We needed the money. Erin may not have done the research, but she understood how to keep the funds coming. She helped us win support from the Council of Learning, the university, and the wealthier members of Lazlo society. Later, she made the rounds inside the guild, too, glad-handing our board of directors, giving them tours of her collections, and drumming up support for another expedition.

“Then she'd be off on another expedition, and the whole process would repeat itself. This went on for years. Even after the private donations dried up, The Guild kept pouring money into Erin's adventures, though we had little to show for it. Erin was too popular for us to cut her off.

“Just after Erin left on her fifth and most-expensive expedition, we had a crisis here at the guild. The Council of Learning pulled their funding after getting fed up waiting on the products they were promised. Erin's research notes were a mess of shoddy methods and incomplete data; a traveller's guide based on her work would be a bad joke. With the Guild tipping on the point of bankruptcy, we had to improvise.

“We gave up on the whole premise of a traveler's guide and built 'Traversing Our World' in a few weeks out of the best parts of Erin's letters and reports. We edited them where appropriate, and we rewrote where we we had to. We published the book hoping to recoup a little of our money. I was never happy about pushing a book meant to impress the ignorant and entertain the educated, but we were hard up.

“'Traversing Our World' was a runaway success beyond our wildest expectations. We couldn't print it fast enough. Almost overnight, The Council re-established our funding, and private donations poured in. The Guild was saved, and our endowment grew enough that we wouldn't have to worry about bankruptcy for decades.

“When Erin heard what we did, she was furious. She didn't consider her letters to be part of her research materials. Erin claimed she had always intended on publishing those expedition letters on her own. After some ugly arguments, she took the issue to court without success; the original contract stood. Erin took her author's fee, and we kept the rights to 'Traversing Our World'. We even published a few follow-on works based on her letters. She still complains about them.

“The rest is history. We never worked with Erin again. She had no trouble getting funding for more expeditions, and didn't even have to pretend they were for serious research anymore. Although none of her subsequent books ever did as well as 'Traversing Our World', Erin went on to spin her travel stories, editorials, and half-baked research into a book-publishing vehicle to money and fame.

“The Guild has also had great success, though we're far less famous. With renewed funding, we recommitted ourselves to exploring and surveying the world. But now we do it the right way. Civilized people across the continent depend on our maps and travel guides to find their way.”

“So our city's greatest heroine is really a fraud?”

“Fraud? No. Don't take what I'm saying the wrong way. Our disagreements aside, Erin Tarn is every bit as brave and kind as her reputation suggests. I simply don't want you to think of her as an example of what we do. That woman is a good person, but a mediocre scholar at best.”

[Orin J.]

the best part about that little ficlet is how accurate it is to acadamia, since their whole problem could've been solved by sending an assistant alongside with instructions to fill in all of tarn's blanks for them but everyone involved was too busy being smugly correct to allow anything to be changed before there's a big dramatic problem.

[Axelmania]

you've tied yourself into huge knots to ignore the basic facts about the CS on this.
they've had military forces in minnisota for ages, which you've admitted to and they've been hostile to tolkeen for ages as well.

I don't agree with that. There was a CS incursion into Minnesota in 70 PA (before Karl was elected in 71 PA and took office in 72 PA) to investigate the assassination of Joseph. Tolkeen confronted the CS about that, but I don't think it was Tolkeen specifically being targeted there.

The CS is making punitive attacks on tolkeen and the troops erin is describing is just more of those.

Placing troops inside the borders of Minnesota isn't necessarily about being hostile to Tolkeen. It's also described as being necessary to defend against and collect information on the Xiticix present there.

you've imagined that she's mentioning some strategic maneuver and not the normal rotation of troops into an area where you're conducting actions, and everyone else is fully aware she means the latter.

By "everyone" are you talking about players or about people reading the unauthorized publication of her private writeup for some Worldgate shifter?

In either case, I don't agree. Since Tarn doesn't mention anything about "troop rotations as usual the past 3 decades" it very much is not clearly in that context, and does sound like she's implying it's a "development", so to speak.

there's no conspiracy here, just you linking unrelated facts in your head and then refusing to understand you were wrong on them.

A letter saying 100 PA and an editor's note on the next page saying 101 PA are very related.

I don't believe I said it was a conspiracy, but I haven't seen you answer very simple questions I've posed:

like is the editor's note...

1) something OOG (for our eyes only like)
2) something Erin wrote (she's the editor) in her original letter
3) something the compiler of the book TOMW added

It means nothing.

So I guess Kev or one of RMB's 2 editors wrote "August" in particular, a specific month of 101 PA, for absolutely no reason whatsoever?

I am dubbing your proposal the "Cyborg August Irrelevant Response" thank you for CAIRing.

I wrote the below segment a few years ago as part of an idea for a Lazlo Explorer's Guild I was thinking about submitting it to the Rifter.

Fun read, pure gold, excellent work.

This is what happens when you get out of range of her Divine Aura power.

the best part about that little ficlet is how accurate it is to acadamia,
since their whole problem could've been solved by sending an assistant alongside with instructions to fill in all of tarn's blanks for them

Maybe they did but they got eaten by a vampire or something?

Kind of like that young scholar Alan Vanhook (pg 14 of SOT4) in "An Erin Tarn Experience" who she apparently attended a pre-war meeting with at Tolkeen. I'm guessing that was after the whole VK>WW>Eng>Africa>NGR>??? round trip.

Rereading that story is actually pretty weird... some random CS grunt recognizes her from 20 feet away. I thought that didn't happen before because most people had old pics of her when she was young and so didn't recognize her when elderly.

My guess is as she got ranked #1 they eventually updated her wanted poster to a more recent picture and circulated it better so even rank-file grunts could then be competent in spotting her.

This kinda begs the question though... why does Tarn just walk around with her face uncovered?

A simple helmet which many adventurers wear for very sensible reasons (toxic gas, not getting your face misted by an errant MD attack) could save her a LOT of trouble.

Kinda wondering how you manage a jokey/joyful/relaxed/fun/levitous/carefree atmosphere on the trek back from pre-war Tolkeen, weren't they already amassing armies of Daemonix on the walls by that point?

Thorpe's probably on posters too and he's also helmetless. While they don't identify him by name, the "Indian Boy" slur by one of the grunts (Jansen) shows there's probably good reason (bias against Spirit West communities) to hide Native American ethnicity unless you're actually a CS soldier (I recall seeing one NA-ancestry CS char, forget who) due to assumptions you might worship a bunch of lightning-bird-aliens on mountains.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yes, man.
Believe it or not, there was no reason.
It’s not a hidden clue or conspiracy; it’s filler.
It’s wallpaper.
There are no secrets to it.

[Axelmania]

I don't like how fluff/filler are demeaning to non-statistical world-building texts.

[Hotrod]

the best part about that little ficlet is how accurate it is to acadamia, since their whole problem could've been solved by sending an assistant alongside with instructions to fill in all of tarn's blanks for them but everyone involved was too busy being smugly correct to allow anything to be changed before there's a big dramatic problem.

To truly make a traveler's guide, you'd need to do a lot of legwork:physical and statistical surveys, interviews with lots of unremarkable people, monitoring trade and commerce, looking at local industries and services, watching crime statistics, et cetera. My version of Erin Tarn has zero interest in doing that kind of work (especially since she doesn't even cite sources!). It wouldn't be so much a matter of filling in tarn's blanks as much as much as ghostwriting the whole study while letting her write up the title and abstract, all so a paper or book can get the marketing benefit of having a famous author (also a thing in academia and publishing).

[Orin J.]

the best part about that little ficlet is how accurate it is to acadamia, since their whole problem could've been solved by sending an assistant alongside with instructions to fill in all of tarn's blanks for them but everyone involved was too busy being smugly correct to allow anything to be changed before there's a big dramatic problem.

To truly make a traveler's guide, you'd need to do a lot of legwork:physical and statistical surveys, interviews with lots of unremarkable people, monitoring trade and commerce, looking at local industries and services, watching crime statistics, et cetera. My version of Erin Tarn has zero interest in doing that kind of work (especially since she doesn't even cite sources!). It wouldn't be so much a matter of filling in tarn's blanks as much as much as ghostwriting the whole study while letting her write up the title and abstract, all so a paper or book can get the marketing benefit of having a famous author (also a thing in academia and publishing).

honestly, most of those details fluctuate extremely in nearly every part of Rifts earth. i suspect they'd have to accept a much more broad body of work for the book to remain viable. and besides, given tarn's love of lingering until something catches her fancy whoever they sent along would probably have time to gather most of the data you're asking for while she's schmoozing the locals. you can get a lot of good work done under a garbage leader so long as they aren't doing any real leading.....

[Hotrod]

"Hey, young researcher! How would you like to work your tail off for years so that someone famous can take all the credit and most of the money from the fruits of your labor?"

Huh, that actually sounds a lot like academia to me.

[Axelmania]

The funny thing is Erin actually has a millenium tree poncho so she could at the very least wear her poncho as a hood to try and obscure that fabulous hair so grunts don't recognize it.

Instead she just seems to condition with extreme volumizers so it's poofy and curly and attracts grunts to shoot at poor young scholar boys she lures in with her lewd jokes.

[Hotrod]

the best part about that little ficlet is how accurate it is to acadamia, since their whole problem could've been solved by sending an assistant alongside with instructions to fill in all of tarn's blanks for them but everyone involved was too busy being smugly correct to allow anything to be changed before there's a big dramatic problem.

To truly make a traveler's guide, you'd need to do a lot of legwork:physical and statistical surveys, interviews with lots of unremarkable people, monitoring trade and commerce, looking at local industries and services, watching crime statistics, et cetera. My version of Erin Tarn has zero interest in doing that kind of work (especially since she doesn't even cite sources!). It wouldn't be so much a matter of filling in tarn's blanks as much as much as ghostwriting the whole study while letting her write up the title and abstract, all so a paper or book can get the marketing benefit of having a famous author (also a thing in academia and publishing).

honestly, most of those details fluctuate extremely in nearly every part of Rifts earth. i suspect they'd have to accept a much more broad body of work for the book to remain viable. and besides, given tarn's love of lingering until something catches her fancy whoever they sent along would probably have time to gather most of the data you're asking for while she's schmoozing the locals. you can get a lot of good work done under a garbage leader so long as they aren't doing any real leading.....

In developed regions, it wouldn't be all that hard. Aerial surveys would be pretty quick and easy, and a lot of the basics would be simple enough in many communities (availability of clean running water, electrical power, law enforcement, medical care, lodging, repairs, supplies, attitudes towards debees, magic, psychics, and major political groups, opportunities for trading goods). Sure, populations will fluctuate, but some basic techniques will get you a rough order of magnitude of a settlement's population and demographics.

Out in the wilderness, you could get a lot of information from types and ages of vegetation, sizes and types of trails, some passive infrared motion-capture cameras along key routes, that sort of stuff. A Portable Scan Dihilator would be an incredible resource for surveys.

To keep it interesting, if I ever did write up the Explorer's Guild of Lazlo, I'd probably have Erin Tarn write up her own take on it that would deride it as a group of soulless, cowardly plagiarists clinging so hard to ideals of impartiality that they don't care to speak out about evil or help people. She'd say that, at best, the Explorer's Guild is more interested in making maps and data charts than in actually understanding the people, their motivations, and their stories.

[HWalsh]

There are so many CS apologists on here.

I thought about rejoining the forums after finding a new game to join in quarentine, but...

Nope.

It feels too skeevy. I can't reconcile people's mental gymnastics on these topics. It bleeds too much into the real world right now for me.

[Hotrod]

There are so many CS apologists on here.

I thought about rejoining the forums after finding a new game to join in quarentine, but...

Nope.

It feels too skeevy. I can't reconcile people's mental gymnastics on these topics. It bleeds too much into the real world right now for me.

Maybe give it a try anyway? Nobody's hurting anyone on these forums, you might inspire someone to look at things differently, and it's hard to have a discussion about it when you walk away in the same post where you make a point.

[Orin J.]

There are so many CS apologists on here.

I thought about rejoining the forums after finding a new game to join in quarentine, but...

Nope.

It feels too skeevy. I can't reconcile people's mental gymnastics on these topics. It bleeds too much into the real world right now for me.

it's......it's the one person? i mean you see the bad guys in EVERY fictional setting become fan favorites anyways, what's your deal....

[HWalsh]

There are so many CS apologists on here.

I thought about rejoining the forums after finding a new game to join in quarentine, but...

Nope.

It feels too skeevy. I can't reconcile people's mental gymnastics on these topics. It bleeds too much into the real world right now for me.

it's......it's the one person? i mean you see the bad guys in EVERY fictional setting become fan favorites anyways, what's your deal....

It's always a core group of people. It is constantly defending the CS, like they're roleplaying actual CS characters. It's exhausting and disturbing.

It goes well beyond liking the bad guy. I'm down with liking the bad guy. The CS are basically post-apocalypse Nazis and Nazis are the best bad guys, since the Golden Age of comics they've been great.

They are coded as the one villain that you should never sympathize with. They are the closest thing in reality that we've ever had to pure evil. You can do anything to them you want really and never feel bad. That's why almost all the best fictional villains take traits from them. It's cruise control.

The CS aggression isn't some kind of conspiracy. They literally have a full book called "Coalition War Campaign" where they outline directly that the CS intends on killing every deebee and every magic user in North America.

I have no doubt that, if successful , Karl Prosek would turn his eyes to dominating the world one place at a time. He's a genocidal megalomaniacle madman, and that's great! He's an obvious villain, something to strive to defeat.

[Hotrod]

It goes well beyond liking the bad guy. I'm down with liking the bad guy. The CS are basically post-apocalypse Nazis and Nazis are the best bad guys, since the Golden Age of comics they've been great.

They are coded as the one villain that you should never sympathize with. They are the closest thing in reality that we've ever had to pure evil. You can do anything to them you want really and never feel bad. That's why almost all the best fictional villains take traits from them. It's cruise control.

And yet, Oskar Schindler, Karl Plagge, Albert Göring, Albert Battel, and many others both served Nazi Germany and saved many Jews. One of the great lessons of the Holocaust was that the capacity for great evil is everywhere and within all of us, but people like these show us that it's possible to be a good person even in the service of a wicked regime. It's comfortable to think of all Nazis as being inhuman, universally evil, and unworthy of sympathy. I prefer for things to be more nuanced; there's a lot more potential for interesting character arcs there.

That's also why I loved the concept of the character Finn in the Star Wars sequel trilogy: the idea that behind every faceless white helmet lay the potential for redemption is a powerful idea, one that I rather wish they had explored a lot more.

The CS aggression isn't some kind of conspiracy. They literally have a full book called "Coalition War Campaign" where they outline directly that the CS intends on killing every deebee and every magic user in North America.

I have no doubt that, if successful , Karl Prosek would turn his eyes to dominating the world one place at a time. He's a genocidal megalomaniacal madman, and that's great! He's an obvious villain, something to strive to defeat.

Agreed! It's entirely possible to play the Coalition as 2-dimensional fascist bad guys, and if that's how you like playing them, go for it! I don't support the coalition in a "that's how I'd do it" sense, and their obvious Nazi references should make readers uncomfortable. I think it's also interesting to contemplate a world with horrors so terrible that something we today regard as the greatest evil humanity has ever faced could somehow be a lesser evil.

[HWalsh]

It goes well beyond liking the bad guy. I'm down with liking the bad guy. The CS are basically post-apocalypse Nazis and Nazis are the best bad guys, since the Golden Age of comics they've been great.

They are coded as the one villain that you should never sympathize with. They are the closest thing in reality that we've ever had to pure evil. You can do anything to them you want really and never feel bad. That's why almost all the best fictional villains take traits from them. It's cruise control.

And yet, Oskar Schindler, Karl Plagge, Albert Göring, Albert Battel, and many others both served Nazi Germany and saved many Jews. One of the great lessons of the Holocaust was that the capacity for great evil is everywhere and within all of us, but people like these show us that it's possible to be a good person even in the service of a wicked regime. It's comfortable to think of all Nazis as being inhuman, universally evil, and unworthy of sympathy. I prefer for things to be more nuanced; there's a lot more potential for interesting character arcs there.

That's also why I loved the concept of the character Finn in the Star Wars sequel trilogy: the idea that behind every faceless white helmet lay the potential for redemption is a powerful idea, one that I rather wish they had explored a lot more.

The CS aggression isn't some kind of conspiracy. They literally have a full book called "Coalition War Campaign" where they outline directly that the CS intends on killing every deebee and every magic user in North America.

I have no doubt that, if successful , Karl Prosek would turn his eyes to dominating the world one place at a time. He's a genocidal megalomaniacal madman, and that's great! He's an obvious villain, something to strive to defeat.

Agreed! It's entirely possible to play the Coalition as 2-dimensional fascist bad guys, and if that's how you like playing them, go for it! I don't support the coalition in a "that's how I'd do it" sense, and their obvious Nazi references should make readers uncomfortable. I think it's also interesting to contemplate a world with horrors so terrible that something we today regard as the greatest evil humanity has ever faced could somehow be a lesser evil.

...
As someone who knows nothing about their family because of that "lesser evil" I don't think so.

There are those of us who's entire family lost all family members past one generation, all of their family status, connections, any hope of wealth. If you think, for one second, that saying, "Well, it is interesting..."

That's really not cool.

That's neither here nor there. The problem is when people are obviously roleplaying as CS citizens in a non-RP forum. That is clearly what Axle is doing here.

Though to touch on the lesser evil thing for a second...

There really isn't anything worse on Rifts Earth than the CS.

Hear me out:

Demons are demons. They're a race of evil beings, they lack free will, they kill and enslave (and worse) but it is just in their nature. They don't have a choice. Demons are literally supernaturally evil.

The Spluggorth aren't actually genociding anyone. Yes, they had a major battle with the Atlanteans, and they have a massive market, and they take slaves, but at the end of the day they aren't really on the CS's level of evil.

Then we have the FOM - Again, they do some slavery, and they do murder, but they're content to stay in their own lane for better or worse.

The Xiticix aren't really intelligent in the way we are and as such their mindset is completely alien. They are bugs.

Now we have the CS.

The CS wants to wipe out any intelligent species that isn't them. They don't do this because they lack free will, as demons do. They don't do this because they are under threat, the CS would burn to a crisp an innocent child that happened to have wings growing out if its back, because it isn't them - Sure, some things are sort of a threat to them, but most aren't. We are told this in the books, most Deebees are just humans with a weird skin color.

They lie to their own people, keep them ignorant and in constant fear, spread dangerous propaganda, and they know that they are lying. This isn't a matter of the CS, namely the people in charge of the CS, not knowing any better. They know much better.

They choose to do this. They choose to kill anyone and anything that isn't them and that doesn't bow to them. They don't have to. Their thought process isn't completely alien. Even the Spluggorth as a whole don't want to kill their own kind, or enact genocide, just because. The fact of the matter is that the CS are the worst kind of evil, because they don't have an excuse.

They kill anyone and everything that they don't like, not that is a threat, that they don't like.

Bringing it back to the topic at hand - To insinuate that the CS weren't aggressive or planning on killing everyone in Tolkeen is madness. They do want to kill everyone in Tolkeen. They want to kill everyone in the FoM. They want to kill everyone in Atlantis (if they knew about it). They want to kill everyone in Lazlo. They do nothing but kill and conquer and they have no excuse for it. So to say, "Erin Tarn lied, the CS are totally innocent." It just madness.

[Orin J.]

wow, that's a lot of whitewashing the "enslaved planets to use their peoples as building materials" splugorth.

[HWalsh]

wow, that's a lot of whitewashing the "enslaved planets to use their peoples as building materials" splugorth.

The point is that they don't do it to their own kind.

The Spluggs don't go around genociding other Splugs.

[Orin J.]

wow, that's a lot of whitewashing the "enslaved planets to use their peoples as building materials" splugorth.

The point is that they don't do it to their own kind.

The Spluggs don't go around genociding other Splugs.

but they have genocided things in the past, it's just glossed over because they don't need it addressed. the splugorth (and really the naruni at the end of the day, glossy corporate veneer aside) are just as guilty of all the evils the coalition are, they just don't do it "on-camera" or openly admitting to it. these are groups that engineered wars just so they could intervene and trick the side they wanted into servitude by wiping the other one from existence. saying the splugorth aren't as evil as the coalition is grossly missing the point of how evil the splogorth are for the sake of treating the coalition as a cartoon fachist group instead of actual, functional fachists.

[HWalsh]

wow, that's a lot of whitewashing the "enslaved planets to use their peoples as building materials" splugorth.

The point is that they don't do it to their own kind.

The Spluggs don't go around genociding other Splugs.

but they have genocided things in the past, it's just glossed over because they don't need it addressed. the splugorth (and really the naruni at the end of the day, glossy corporate veneer aside) are just as guilty of all the evils the coalition are, they just don't do it "on-camera" or openly admitting to it. these are groups that engineered wars just so they could intervene and trick the side they wanted into servitude by wiping the other one from existence. saying the splugorth aren't as evil as the coalition is grossly missing the point of how evil the splogorth are for the sake of treating the coalition as a cartoon fachist group instead of actual, functional fachists.

If they've never done it "on screen" then you can't say they've never done it. Until you can show a book that states that the spluggs kill their own kind for learning how to read then we really can't compare them.

Back to the thread though:

The CS was aggressive as heck against Tolkeen, Tarn didn't lie about a blasted thing

[Nekira Sudacne]

I have to note that demons do have free will and do have a choice, and there are a few varients of reformed demons as viable playable characters, so the demons don't get an excuse of lack of free will.