Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

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Cyber Knight Code

Poll ended at Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:36 pm

The Knight has not violated the Code of Chivalry
0
No votes
Guilty - Section 1: Live worthy of respect and honor.
13
35%
Guilty - Section 2: Fair Play.
14
38%
Guilty - Section 5: Respect Life.
10
27%
 
Total votes: 37

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foilfodder
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Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by foilfodder »

Okay Rifts fans. We a Cyber-Knight do something questionable during a heated battle. Putting up a poll is see what everyone things.

The group is in a heated battle against unknown soldiers. Several melee rounds in, the players have inflicted some casualties on their attackers, but are still outnumbered and things look grim.

In mid-battle the enemy commander during his Initiatve orders his troops to hold fire and issues a call for the players to surrender.

REAL WORLD - The players are allowed a brief moment to decide their character's actions. The group is in favor of surrender rather than taking chances in a loosing battle.

Cyber-Knight is next in initiative. He attacks and kills an enemy trooper, then agrees to the surrender.

Rest of the party follows with immediate surrender. At least one was sweating bullets sure that the "last shot" would cost them their lives; but the enemy commander kept control and nothing came of it.

If he had ignored the demand for surrender or had replied with a refusal, I wouldn't be posting this up. So, is the Cyber-Knight guilty of anything?
- He did not attack after the surrender.
- His opponent was armed (although not actively attacking).

The main issue I see a Cyber-Knight attacking an opponent that has temporarilly halted the combat does not seem "honorable" Violation Section 1 Live worthy of respect and honor.
Firing an opponent who has dropped their guard to give you a chance to surrender. Vioation Section 2: Fair Play
The Cyber-Knight deliberately used an attack to take a life when he was planning on surrendering anyway. Violation Section 5 Respect Life.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Captain_Nibbz »

Before I cast my vote, how did the player role-play this action. I feel like the intent behind the actions is more what will determine my answer to this.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by foilfodder »

No Roleplay as the characater as no other characters really asked him. He is only Cyber-Knight in the group and nobody else in the party was Principled alignment.

Player's justification was he could make the attack so he took the die and rolled it.
Last edited by foilfodder on Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Captain_Nibbz »

Yeah then I think he totally violated the code personally. Voting for all three sections. If he did it just because he could then he's completely violating the "respect life" and to me thats a pretty dishonorable thing to do, killing someone for no reason why you're planning on surrendering. I also think that this might violate "fair play" as the opponent had ceased fire against the party, and temporarily disengaged from combat, doesn't seem fair.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by 13eowulf »

Guilty on all three counts.

It seems to me the player wanted one more kill (not the character), and didn't give a thought to the code.

Were I the GM: The high tech world of Rifts has lots of recording methods. The Knight would be delivered to the Order, with proof of his crimes, for the order to deal with. As such callous disregard for the code would lead to a harsher punishment from the order than any other punishment.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Guilty to charge 1 I'd say. Definatly not honorable. however...

Guilty by who? It's not like there any real enforcement mechanism for the Cyber Knight Code. They arn't Cosmo Knights where the power is granted by an entity who takes their psi-sword away if they break their code. For that matter: the enemy commander accepted the surrender, so he apparently thought it was justified. Who is even going to be reporting a volation even if one did occur? And to whom would they report it? And whom were they fighting: if they were fighting a bandit camp, who would even take the bandits at their word that he did it? if he did, why did they accept it anyway?

Basically I'm not pulling this up to be pendantic, I'm trying to get a better feel for the tone of your game. By default this is a bit of an edge case, and so weather or not anything comes of it comes down mostly to a who the listener likes more: the cyber knight or the guy accusing the cyber knight. It's hard to say he's Guilty/Not Guilty when the only court is Public Opinion.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by foilfodder »

I was a player in the group not G.M. so not my call. The event in question happened during a game 20+ years ago.

IF I was the G.M. running the game, yes, there would be accountability if the Order ever found out what happened....but not my game so not my call. How would they find out? Maybe a surviving soldier or old teammate could come forward. That's it unless a telepath starts digging around in the Knight's head....

I posted because I had never really payed attention to the Cyber-Knight code but last night I was creating an N.P.C. Cyber-Knight for a future session and it sparked the memory from my old game group.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Warshield73 »

Definitely Guilty on 1, probably 2 as well but if there are no Cyber-Knights in the group it probably doesn't matter unless the order hears about it.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Clearly he behaved in a dishonorable way. Not something that is to my knowledge overly enforced. I would look to SoT 4 pg 60 fallen knights and then talk to the player about how to play it going forward. But it sounds like he may be starting on the path of a blackguard.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Shark_Force »

i would say it is a violation of the first and second. i wouldn't say it is inherently the third (you could respect the sanctity of life by defeating those who would threaten it, so if the battle was justified in the first place, taking these lives in particular is not going to be a problem).

but i don't consider the intent of the code to be that simply having a weapon on their person is sufficient, nor would i consider it "fair" to surrender immediately after changing the conditions under which you were offered a chance to surrender.

i would also agree that having done something against the code does not magically communicate that knowledge to the rest of the cyber-knight order *or* to everyone the party meets. but obviously, it also doesn't prevent that knowledge from being communicated if those present were inclined to do so, and hypothetically if the knight were ever in a situation where some sort of test could reveal whether he had fully honoured the code or not (a magical spell that compels him to truthfully answer a question for example), it would be revealed that he had not, in that i would say you don't become a cyber-knight without knowing the code (i would also make it clear to the player that they would know, and offer them the chance to retract that action if they had forgotten; they are not a cyber-knight, but their character is, and as i said: their character would know, so they should be told about it). they may have to face the consequences of violating their code, but they also may not.

with that said, i expect violations of the code to some extent are fairly common. sometimes, 2 parts of the code will conflict. sometimes, a knight will decide that something is more important. sometimes a knight simply makes a mistake. and so on. they're not perfect, after all. the overall question is more about what sort of pattern is formed: is the knight *constantly* making exceptions to the code? then it's much more likely to catch up to them eventually, and if the order at large becomes aware, they are more likely to face censure. is it something that happens rarely, in extreme circumstances? then unless it's something really big, or in front of a *lot* of witnesses, it is unlikely to catch up to you, and if the order does find out your penance will probably be relatively minor.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by foilfodder »

Shark_Force wrote:i would also make it clear to the player that they would know, and offer them the chance to retract that action if they had forgotten; they are not a cyber-knight, but their character is, and as i said: their character would know, so they should be told about it). they may have to face the consequences of violating their code, but they also may not.


The player was aware of the Code. The G.M. (nor any player present) did not remind them of it after they announced the attack. As mentioned above, there was conversation after the die was cast.

Shark_Force wrote:with that said, i expect violations of the code to some extent are fairly common. sometimes, 2 parts of the code will conflict. sometimes, a knight will decide that something is more important. sometimes a knight simply makes a mistake. and so on. they're not perfect, after all. the overall question is more about what sort of pattern is formed: is the knight *constantly* making exceptions to the code? then it's much more likely to catch up to them eventually, and if the order at large becomes aware, they are more likely to face censure. is it something that happens rarely, in extreme circumstances? then unless it's something really big, or in front of a *lot* of witnesses, it is unlikely to catch up to you, and if the order does find out your penance will probably be relatively minor.


Agreed that Knights are not perfect. Disagree that such incidents are "fairly common".

Knights are men and women who put their lives on the line daily and likely get little no to appreciation unless they just rescued some rich guy's daughter from being eaten by a dragon. While they are undergoing their training and mediation to create a Psi-Sword I imagine their mentors drill the Code and other philosphy into their pupils skulls.

However, after the fall of Tolkeen, I imagine there might have been a few Cyber-Knights that gave into anger that the battle and city were lost. Would they give in to those feelings next time they had a C.S. States trooper at their mercy or would they take the higher road and offer mercy?
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Shark_Force »

i'm not suggesting that cyber-knights are routinely committing heinous violations of their code. but smaller stuff? all the time. it is really hard to perfectly follow a set of rules 100% of the time. they probably have relatively few problems with, say, murder, but let's say a thief steals something from them... well, they're probably not going to have as easy a time of being generous and fair towards that thief. and it isn't like the code makes exceptions for people they're mad at.

as to player awareness, i am simply observing that the player's awareness is likely not as extensive as the character's awareness. i am simply suggesting that in cases where it is likely that the player has not considered their code (due to it most likely not being a core part of their decision-making process in daily life), that it would be best to help them remember when it comes up. if they decide to act the same way anyways, well, so be it.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Shark_Force wrote:i'm not suggesting that cyber-knights are routinely committing heinous violations of their code. but smaller stuff? all the time. it is really hard to perfectly follow a set of rules 100% of the time. they probably have relatively few problems with, say, murder, but let's say a thief steals something from them... well, they're probably not going to have as easy a time of being generous and fair towards that thief. and it isn't like the code makes exceptions for people they're mad at.

as to player awareness, i am simply observing that the player's awareness is likely not as extensive as the character's awareness. i am simply suggesting that in cases where it is likely that the player has not considered their code (due to it most likely not being a core part of their decision-making process in daily life), that it would be best to help them remember when it comes up. if they decide to act the same way anyways, well, so be it.

It is not hard to fallow it 100% if it is the life style you grew up with. If the importance of the code is drilled in them many probably never break the code. There would be some that break it but I do not think it is common. Even for smaller stuff.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

But it's not a lifestyle anyone was grown up with. there's no Cyber Knight City where people are raised. There's a bunch of wandering knights who might take on Squires and Apprentices who are already teenagers/young adults, and thus already have been growing up with a completely different lifestyle and ethics system. There is also no Cyber Knight Organization, there's a single Monestary, where okay, maybe there a few young padawans were dropped off as young children to be raised by the Order, but by and large, the cyber knights don't even qualify as a Chivilric Order. They're a loose affiliation with different factions and different philosophies and the one time they had a real argument, half the order split to help tolkeen because there is no mechanism to make anyone do anything or punish people who break the code. It even says there is no central Cyber Knight Organization and lists a variety of types of "Fallen" Knights who go about on twisted cursades or just general Villany unpunished because there is no punishment other than some other Cyber Knight deciding to make it their personal quest to hunt you down. And there are so many threats that there's no garentee that anyone will think your the biggest threat that needs dealing with. Many Fallen Cyber Knights are villians who fight other villians with twisted and evil methods, so there's still a bias in the order for overlooking transgressions of fallen knights because it's just easier to focus on villians who primarly victimize the innocent rather than antiheros who lie and beat up villians. The Punisher isn't any heros number one priority to take down.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:But it's not a lifestyle anyone was grown up with. there's no Cyber Knight City where people are raised. There's a bunch of wandering knights who might take on Squires and Apprentices who are already teenagers/young adults, and thus already have been growing up with a completely different lifestyle and ethics system. There is also no Cyber Knight Organization, there's a single Monestary, where okay, maybe there a few young padawans were dropped off as young children to be raised by the Order, but by and large, the cyber knights don't even qualify as a Chivilric Order. They're a loose affiliation with different factions and different philosophies and the one time they had a real argument, half the order split to help tolkeen because there is no mechanism to make anyone do anything or punish people who break the code. It even says there is no central Cyber Knight Organization and lists a variety of types of "Fallen" Knights who go about on twisted cursades or just general Villany unpunished because there is no punishment other than some other Cyber Knight deciding to make it their personal quest to hunt you down. And there are so many threats that there's no garentee that anyone will think your the biggest threat that needs dealing with. Many Fallen Cyber Knights are villians who fight other villians with twisted and evil methods, so there's still a bias in the order for overlooking transgressions of fallen knights because it's just easier to focus on villians who primarly victimize the innocent rather than antiheros who lie and beat up villians. The Punisher isn't any heros number one priority to take down.

Not all life stiles require you have them since birth. But it clearly calls cyber knight a way of life, and that it takes years of training. That makes it a life style.
There is some sort of organization to get the special cyber armor, and if he does not fallow the code of chivalry he is not a true cyber-knight as fallowing the code is required to be a cyber-knight. Fallen cyber knights are the ones who would break the code in little ways, while those that break it in big ways are black guard. (fallowing the code as written is not hard.)

So true cyber-knights do not break the code as fallowing it is required, when they break the code that is the path of a fallen cyber-knight.

In this case the PC is clearly not fallowing the code of chivalry and violated every tennant.
1 his action was not worthy of respect. 2 Is clearly a violated because the action of attacking when asked to surrender when you plan to surrender for a free attack on a foe that stopped fighting. Is unfair way to fight. 3 His actions was a lack of self control. killing some one when the fight is over is a disrespect for life. 4 His selfish actions was not a honorable way to fight. 5 Betrayal of confidence. 6 attacking some one who asked you to surrender is not polite. 7 he was disloyal to his friends risking their lives so he can kill and disrespecting the code of chivalry.

So the PC is no longer a true cyber knight and may have lost the ability to get help from from the central organization. If true cyber-knights hear of his actions they may not help him. Some may even try to bring him to justice. What that is I do not know.

Honestly his actions should have prevented at least him it not the whole group from surrendering.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

But you don't lose the Cyber Knight class for breaking the Code. You don't Get any Penalties. Blackguards are still gaining levels as Cyber Knight O.C.C.. There isn't anything stopping a Cyber knight from being a Serial Killer without becoming a Blackguard as long as he's really good at not getting caught. Fallen Cyber Knight is purely a social construct not a mechanical one and the book makes it quite clear there is no Cyber Knight Organization that punishes Blackguards for breaking the code Anyway. It's basically a Club. If you break the rules, you won't be welcome in meetings anymore, but that's it.
Last edited by Nekira Sudacne on Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:33 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

I'm pretty sure fallowing a code would involve not adhering to its tenets.

Discussions about paladin-types violating codes of conduct are generally pretty circular, and if there are no game mechanical consequences even more silly. The player was definitely trying to game the situation, though, and while a GM trying to punish players for that is often petty it probably would warrant a brief conversation. I don't think the character having a minor penalty agreed upon by the player and GM is out of place. In this case, for example, if the troops whom previously ceased fire were from an antimagic culture like the CS, and were going to conscript the party as seen in Heroes of Humanity, maybe the cyberdoc that installs inhibitor implants is a little nastier or sloppier with the cyberknight due to their murdering of the doc's cousin during a parley.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:But you don't lose the Cyber Knight class for breaking the Code. You don't Get any Penalties. Blackguards are still gaining levels as Cyber Knight O.C.C.. There isn't anything stopping a Cyber knight from being a Serial Killer without becoming a Blackguard as long as he's really good at not getting caught. Fallen Cyber Knight is purely a social construct not a mechanical one and the book makes it quite clear there is no Cyber Knight Organization that punishes Blackguards for breaking the code Anyway. It's basically a Club. If you break the rules, you won't be welcome in meetings anymore, but that's it.

I never said he would loose his class, just that he would not be considered a true cyber-knight. There is no one that takes away your card and says you are a blackguard it happens when your actions or choices lead you that way. This PC actions would seam to point to him becoming a black guard. Hard to walk the straight and narrow once you fall off it.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Curbludgeon wrote:I'm pretty sure fallowing a code would involve not adhering to its tenets.

Discussions about paladin-types violating codes of conduct are generally pretty circular, and if there are no game mechanical consequences even more silly. The player was definitely trying to game the situation, though, and while a GM trying to punish players for that is often petty it probably would warrant a brief conversation. I don't think the character having a minor penalty agreed upon by the player and GM is out of place. In this case, for example, if the troops whom previously ceased fire were from an antimagic culture like the CS, and were going to conscript the party as seen in Heroes of Humanity, maybe the cyberdoc that installs inhibitor implants is a little nastier or sloppier with the cyberknight due to their murdering of the doc's cousin during a parley.

Wait fallowing a code involves not fallowing it? Really that makes no sense. The tenets of the code are the code, in this case he violated the tenets and the spirit of the code. So yes he violated the code. If it was a matter of breaking the tenets to uphold the spirit of the code you could justify breaking it but in that case there is none.

The fact that in his hobo murder rage he killed one more person before he surrendered that is the problem. If he had said he would refuse to surrender that would be honorable if he surrendered with out the last attack that would be more inline with honor.

This is a question about the knights actions the wrong of one group does not justify the wrongs of another. So it is a question if he violated the code not sure how it is a circular augment.

The most likely damage/penalty would be word of his misdeed spreading. The CS propaganda department could use this true story to attack the name of the cyber-knights and justify persecution of them.
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Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by The Beast »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Curbludgeon wrote:I'm pretty sure fallowing a code would involve not adhering to its tenets.

Discussions about paladin-types violating codes of conduct are generally pretty circular, and if there are no game mechanical consequences even more silly. The player was definitely trying to game the situation, though, and while a GM trying to punish players for that is often petty it probably would warrant a brief conversation. I don't think the character having a minor penalty agreed upon by the player and GM is out of place. In this case, for example, if the troops whom previously ceased fire were from an antimagic culture like the CS, and were going to conscript the party as seen in Heroes of Humanity, maybe the cyberdoc that installs inhibitor implants is a little nastier or sloppier with the cyberknight due to their murdering of the doc's cousin during a parley.

Wait fallowing a code involves not fallowing it? Really that makes no sense...


Well of course it makes no sense. You don't fallow a code, you follow one (or not as in the OP's case).
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Axelmania »

I guess one question would be, if someone is armed but ordered not to fire, are they truly armed?
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Axelmania wrote:I guess one question would be, if someone is armed but ordered not to fire, are they truly armed?


Unless they are mindless automata unable to defy orders, yes. Sometimes people fire even when ordered not to.
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Re: Cyber-Knight - judgement of actions poll

Unread post by Kagashi »

I dont think the code is a problem per se. I mean, sure its a problem in that in the eyes of the opposing forces, a CK did something they might not think a CK should do. But I have no idea if the opposing forces have Lore: CK or not. If they did, it would not look good for the CKs as a whole...but in the end, it would just become a rumor "I saw this guy claiming to be a Knight cut down my buddy AFTER we demanded surrender...then he surrendered! Cyber Knights are garbage and dont walk what they talk!" Just imagine anybody sore at Religion X IRL and paint everybody with the same brush...like Islamophobics...perhaps this person will become a "Cyber Knight-ophobic"?

My main issue it that the character is principled and didnt act as such. The player should get an XP deduction and consider changing his alignment if he does it again. Or if he role plays it well like "I cant believe I did that!" in the future...perhaps he doesnt get the XP deduction and learns from his mistake.
I want to see from Palladium:
Updated Aug 2015
-Rifts: Dark Woods/Deep South, Space 110 PA, Scandinavia
-Mechanoids: Space (MDC)
-Robotech: Errata for Marines timeline, Masters Deluxe with SC and UEEF gear, Spaceships
-Updated Errata for post-2006 printings of Rifts books
-Searchable, quality PDFs/E-pubs of current Rifts titles
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