Cybernetics to enhance P.P.?

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AceTW
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Cybernetics to enhance P.P.?

Unread post by AceTW »

So Rifts has plenty of cybernetics dedicated to concealing sensors and weapons. Even some that can enhance a persons durability and strength, but very few that increase someone's dexterity or coordination.

Where are the wired reflexes? The synaptic accelerators? Things to let me think faster and do more accurately?
I suppose you could say that Mindwerks has implants that are a bit like these.

As it is right now, Splugorth Biowizardry is the only available thing I know of in the books.

Is there something I missed?
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Re: Cybernetics to enhance P.P.?

Unread post by Grazzik »

AceTW wrote:So Rifts has plenty of cybernetics dedicated to concealing sensors and weapons. Even some that can enhance a persons durability and strength, but very few that increase someone's dexterity or coordination.

SB5 pg 28-30 spends a lot of text explaining why cybernetics have "normal" stats - cybernetic and biosystem arms typically have PP of 10, but may be tweaked to 12. Biosystems can be increased to 15 with training/skill bonuses to build up the organic parts. For anything that gives bonuses, you need to look at bionics.

Ultimately, with bionics, it comes down to the implant/chassis. SB5 pg 70 points out that the "normal" stat for bionic limbs is 10 and can be souped up to 12. However, it is the partial and full conversion cyborgs that see real improvement. For partial conversion, max PP of 20, or 22 if they have bionic bones (SB5 pg 72). This is a max stat, but perhaps it could be "souped up". For full conversion, max PP of 26 (SB5 pg 77). For alien bionics, max PP may be 26 (SB5 pg 71), also even Kremin 'borgs (WB30 pg 113) and Naruni Repo-Bots (DB2 pg 46) max out at 26.

AceTW wrote:Where are the wired reflexes? The synaptic accelerators? Things to let me think faster and do more accurately?
I suppose you could say that Mindwerks has implants that are a bit like these.

* See Wired Gunslinger (WB14 pg 107)... basically a Crazy with sharpshooting.
* HU2 pg 118 has a "brain boost" for Supersoldiers, but not clear if it is of a chemical, tech or other nature. Most HU2 alternate Supersoldiers (Powers 2) are a redo of Crazy, Juicer and FC Borg.
* See Minicomputer implant (HU2 pg 106)... no bonus, but 640KB memory (all anyone from would ever need)!!!
* Combat Computer and Enhancement Programs (WB36 pg 158)
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Re: Cybernetics to enhance P.P.?

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

AceTW wrote:So Rifts has plenty of cybernetics dedicated to concealing sensors and weapons. Even some that can enhance a persons durability and strength, but very few that increase someone's dexterity or coordination.

Where are the wired reflexes? The synaptic accelerators? Things to let me think faster and do more accurately?
I suppose you could say that Mindwerks has implants that are a bit like these.

As it is right now, Splugorth Biowizardry is the only available thing I know of in the books.

Is there something I missed?

M.O.M implants and Juicer implants are both examples of implants that can impact the characters PP attribute, though in both cases you are likely going to have to change OCC.

Cybernetic and Bionic limbs do have PP attributes that can be improved up to a certain value, you also have the Micro-manipulation hand that raises PP for specific tasks.

As for coordination and thinking faster that can come from non-attribute bonuses (strike, parry, dodge, imitative, APM).

It is likely also worth considering that Rifts implant list at its core is pretty old (it's C&P from pre-Rifts line of books dating back to the 80s) and anything new is largely derived from that IMHO. So that might explain why we don't see stuff phrased like what you expect with it either "masked" because it does it in a way you don't see readily or a sign of the times it was written or not something that was conceived when the list was initially created. It's also worth considering that, at least on Rifts Earth, the technology was lost with the great cataclysm and hasn't been rediscovered/re-invented yet.
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Re: Cybernetics to enhance P.P.?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I'd also add that you have lots of people getting higher PP by becoming full borgs. You can have straight 3s in your physical attributes, but that doesn't matter if you've become a full conversion borg.

I definitely agree that Crazy and Juicer are the main ways to increase PP. I did come up with one that was a bio-comp that was optimized to work on its own, not with a Juicer harness... a body optimization system, rather than putting people to a drugged-out maximum. It's in my Rifts: Houstown expansion.

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Re: Cybernetics to enhance P.P.?

Unread post by taalismn »

My head canon is that the sort of synaptic accelerators were lost during the Golden Age, and aspects of them only survived in the Juicer and MOM conversion rigs, or in partial- and full-conversion cyborgs. It's a lot more focused and precise tech that's waiting to be rediscovered.

In the meantime, using the Eugenic Superhero and supersoldier tables from HU Powers Unlimited 2 is a good way to sneak in advanced relfexes into your Rifts game and pass them off as cybernetics.

(Color-wise, I've raided the old Cyberpunk game for Golden Age cybertech that's subsequently been lost with the Coming of the Rifts)
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Re: Cybernetics to enhance P.P.?

Unread post by Daniel Stoker »

Library Ogre wrote:I'd also add that you have lots of people getting higher PP by becoming full borgs. You can have straight 3s in your physical attributes, but that doesn't matter if you've become a full conversion borg.

I definitely agree that Crazy and Juicer are the main ways to increase PP. I did come up with one that was a bio-comp that was optimized to work on its own, not with a Juicer harness... a body optimization system, rather than putting people to a drugged-out maximum. It's in my Rifts: Houstown expansion.

[New stand alone Cyberworks link]
[New stand alone Savage Rifts Cyberworks link]


:ok:

Nice! Thanks LO.


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Re: Cybernetics to enhance P.P.?

Unread post by Grazzik »

ShadowLogan is absolutely right. The whole idea of cybernetics as presented in the books is rather quaint, a product of its time. Take a biological function, cut out the body part, and have a mechanical device do it. Over the years, ideas like virtual reality, networked devices, cloning, and nanotechnology have crept into the mix, but Real Life has far outstripped anything the books attribute to medicine 70 years from now. Think what advances in genetic medicine, organic materials, and the Internet of Things in bio devices are yet to come. Now, admittedly there are hints at such concepts - Chaos Earth gives humans genetic bonuses, biosystems are the blending of organic and inorganic - but they aren't fully fleshed out, ha ha.

Taalismn's point of lost Golden Age tech makes total sense in most cases, particularly some backwater frontier town. However, super advanced tech should be available to the exclusive few in major urban areas, namely the large cities that have evolved around salvaged tech lifted from hospitals, universities and labs over hundreds of years. IRL it took only 80 years to go from experiments zapping a heart with current to standardized implantable cardiac pacemakers. 20 more years and we had implantable defibrillators. 10 years ago we saw the emergence of web-enabled implants. In let's say Chi-Town, such tech should be easily available, but also built upon by at least 100 years of additional research/Golden Age archeology. Even if lower cholesterol isn't bioscience's "killer app" for synthetic organ and genetic research, military applications in humans might definitely give it an impetus (regardless of what it says in WB13).

The thing is that we need to keep in mind the physical limitations of the human body. No matter how augmented, the organic human body can only take so much before it breaks down. As such, the PP limitations placed on cybernetics and partial conversion makes a lot of sense, I'm sure much to the annoyance of any min-maxers out there. Library Ogre is right that other forms of augmentation would be the choice for higher stats, despite their own drawbacks. As also mentioned, specific bonuses are probably better than generally bumping up the PP attribute, not least because there are few limits on such bonuses.

Regarding ideas on PP, perhaps adapted nanites from IRMSS-like technology would lay networks of nanowire electrodes throughout a subject's musculature delivering electrical pulses to activate maximum fast-twitch or slow-twitch responses without training. Rather than being controlled by "chips", such bionetworks would be controlled by grown organic modules that emulate nerve clusters, though controlled by defined breathing patterns. Instead of ripping out bones to replace with MDC equivalents, wouldn't it make more sense for nanites to deposit MDC compounds directly on or within the organic bones so as not to destroy the subject's immune system? Similar to the process of the Titan Juicer, but more realistic than bathing in a chemical soup waiting for the bonding chemicals to seep through to the bones. If CS or NG scientists can build a biosystem arm, programmable nanotech for IRMSS and other med tech, and machine-brain interfaces for cyborgs, then muscle twitch tech should be child's play. Bottomline, while you can limit yourself to canon if that is the flavor of your game, in my experience more dynamic games tend to be inspired by ideas from multiple sources and not limited to 640KB thinking.
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Re: Cybernetics to enhance P.P.?

Unread post by AceTW »

taalismn wrote:My head canon is that the sort of synaptic accelerators were lost during the Golden Age, and aspects of them only survived in the Juicer and MOM conversion rigs, or in partial- and full-conversion cyborgs. It's a lot more focused and precise tech that's waiting to be rediscovered.

In the meantime, using the Eugenic Superhero and supersoldier tables from HU Powers Unlimited 2 is a good way to sneak in advanced relfexes into your Rifts game and pass them off as cybernetics.

(Color-wise, I've raided the old Cyberpunk game for Golden Age cybertech that's subsequently been lost with the Coming of the Rifts)



Yea, I agree with you I think. Supersoldier and Cyberpunk/Shadowrun are probably the way to go with this.

I have a player who is a RPA who doesn't want to go Borg but does want to upgrade with cybernetic implants. That seems like the most straightforward way to go about it. Plus I like the ability to tweak more stats.
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Re: Cybernetics to enhance P.P.?

Unread post by Aermas »

My inner 14 year old can't help but giggle at how the title is phrased/sounds out loud...

But yeah, I don't know why cybernetic P.P. enhancements weren't really a thing, I think it just comes down to the mentality of what cybernetics meant way back when it was created. I would say just copy off of other games' notes or compare stuff from Sourcebook 1r & maybe Attibute Enhancement Rings from PF.
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Re: Cybernetics to enhance P.P.?

Unread post by grandmaster z0b »

One of the themes of Rifts is people sacrificing part of themselves for survive a cruel, dangerous world. Crazies sacrifice their sanity, Juicers sacrifice most of their lifespan, even Full conversion Borgs sacrifice a part of their humanity- the ability to feel the warmth of an embrace etc.

Cybernetic reflex enhancers may make technical sense but they don't fit the theme as well and would make Juicers and Crazies seem a bit lame unless they had some significant drawback that most cybernetics don't have.

Although as this is all speculative, perhaps fiddling with the nervous system causes unintended side effects? Perhaps that's why Crazies were invented in the first place because they were attempting exactly that.
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Re: Cybernetics to enhance P.P.?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Which, really, is why power armor is so popular: Be a part-time borg.
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Re: Cybernetics to enhance P.P.?

Unread post by Aermas »

Library Ogre wrote:Which, really, is why power armor is so popular: Be a part-time borg.

Especially since PA offers more interestinf options than 'Borgs & as of SB1 you can add a lot of borg options to PA
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Re: Cybernetics to enhance P.P.?

Unread post by Grazzik »

Library Ogre wrote:Which, really, is why power armor is so popular: Be a part-time borg.

Makes total sense.

The Elite combat bonuses from training stack with H2H.
You have increased strength, endurance and speed.
You can quickly swap out in the case of major damage without the need for a cyber doc.
A SOx powered Blue Boy is way cheaper than a FC chassis.
And you get to keep all your fleshy bits, ISP, and/or Magic.

I've typically seen bionics selected after major injury/juicer detox, when a PC is truly fascinated with body modification for its own sake, or not by choice. Even then, usually not FC - partial conversion tends to be more popular. There just isn't the potential for PC physical development, beyond adding a few implants or tweaking some stats, if you start off at Level 1 with all the standard FC bells and whistles. No symbiotes, no enchantments, no TW gizmos, no bonuses from new skills, no need for creature comforts, etc.

The original post seems to suggest that cybernetics, rather than bionics, might be a way to go. Perhaps there is room in Pre-Rifts cyber-centric communities like Japan or the Sovietski for GMs to introduce cyber that enhances PP rather than simply replace lost limbs or damaged organs. In the CS and Triax where cyber is accepted, but perhaps not ubiquitous due to cultural or resource constraints, it might only be a matter of time for them to adopt a different perspective to bio-tech augmentation.
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Re: Cybernetics to enhance P.P.?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I mean, let's look at what you can do as a cyber-enhanced power armor pilot:

(I'm not going to go SUPER in-depth, here; not diving through multiple sourcebooks, just RMB):

Let's go with a sweet set-up for a power-armor pilot: Headjack. Now, the basic system is nice enough, as it plugs into your power armor, and can also likely plug into environmental armor. Throw in an Optic Nerve Implant, and you've got your HUD always in your field of vision. Let's also add a Sound Filtration system, just to keep you from going deaf when a railgun rings your bell.

At this point, we've got someone really well tuned to be a power armor pilot. We've spent roughly 100k outfitting them with this gear, which is not insubstantial. We'll spend another 3 million getting them two power armor suits and some other basic equipment, so we're at $3.1 million.

Now, I can get 3 full conversion borgs for that price (RMB: Full conversion is 900,000), which may be part of the appeal. But that has straight 10s in attributes. To get to "typical borg" levels, you've got to add 16,000 for strength, 10,000 for PP, and, I kid you not, 122,000 for speed. Which puts a single borg, with no equipment (built in or other) at 1,048,000. Throw in what the cybernetics standard for military conversion (RMB p. 238), and you spend another 120,000. Additional bionic systems are harder to guess (lots of variability in costs), but let's toss another half million on top of that (a couple things, like an extra pair of limbs or an enhanced lung system are really expensive; built-in weapons like a plasma cannon or the like are also not cheap). That puts us at 1,668,000cr for a full conversion borg, which means you're looking at 2 borgs, without hand weapons or armor, for the cost of one pilot and two power armor.

And that's without things like held weapons, or armor.

All in all, power armor troops are a relative bargain, and you can cut 100k off the cost of each if you don't really need them to have all the cybernetics (which are neat and all, but not necessary to be a good pilot). Borgs are tough, and a way to KEEP good soldiers who are otherwise permanently disabled, but at the end of the day, power armor is probably a better investment.
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