Does the Coalition use the AC-29? If not...

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slade the sniper
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Does the Coalition use the AC-29? If not...

Unread post by slade the sniper »

What do they use for bombing targets and what book is it in?

Thanks.

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Re: Does the Coalition use the AC-29? If not...

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

where did you find reference to it?
it would help if you call it by name and not the designation, which most people tend not to know off the cuff.

i am not aware of them using Aircastle bombers, they supposedly didn't capture the plans for any of the IHA vehicles.

and as far as i am aware of there is only one heavy bomber they built, the CAF-1 Flying Leviathan from SOT2, but that was a one off prototype. presumably they rely largely on their smaller fighters for bombing (or at least, air to ground missile delivery). given that strike fighters tend to be more effective at the kinds of tactical bombing the CS does than heavy bombers (especially given the CS's lack of guided bombs in canon) this is probably very effective for them.

the CS navy has a light bomber, the CSN-118 Dagger (SB4), which is roughly the same size and weaponry as the "Nightwing" fighter from Mercenaries, but has stealth abilities. it relies on LRM's for ground strikes but you could probably swap the depth charges bay with conventional bombs. (though i never understood why it has mini-torpedo launchers instead of plain MM's)

the Nightwing itself has LRM's and would work quite well in ground assualt (in fact its weapons load of MM's and LRM's is better suited to ground strikes rather than Air-to-air)

and CWC has the SF-7 Talon, a larger aircraft. basically a medium bomber with stealth abilities. it too also relies almost entirely on LRM's.
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Re: Does the Coalition use the AC-29? If not...

Unread post by slade the sniper »

My bad on calling it the AC-29 instead of the Aircastle...

Not having bombers is a fault I see in the CS doctrine. While Fighter Bombers are nice to have so they can switch off, a dedicated bomber is certainly something to want in a large scale conflict, especially since dragons and other anti-air stuff can easily reach the 10,000 foot altitude ceiling of the Nightwing, but he Aircastle can get to 50k. The Death's Head can get to 40k, but dropping it's payload, even of other airborne units means that those units are going to fall for a very long way or the DHT has to get pretty low.

The SF-7 has great speed and altitude, but with only 30 airframes and a minuscule payload compared to the Aircastle (6 LRMs and 250 mini-missiles Vs 60 LRMs, 48 MRMs, and 200 bombs equal to LRM warheads). Cracking the ley line defenses of Tolkeen "might" have been accomplished by strat bombers, instead of a lot of ineffectual Nightwing sorties or nukes that got sucked into rifts.

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Re: Does the Coalition use the AC-29? If not...

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

slade the sniper wrote:Not having bombers is a fault I see in the CS doctrine.

Is it really though? There are only 3 nations that currently operate Strategic/Heavy Bombers (China, Russia, and the USA), and Light bombers are replaced with Fighter/Attack aircraft. The F-15E can match a WWII B-29 heavy bomber in range via air refueling, but otherwise is a match for ordnance capacity (by max weight, though the F-15E is using some of that for fuel). The B-1B and B-52 (and B-2 and likely the B-21) would require several F-15E units to match the capacity, the F/A-18E/F (followed by the A-10) is a bit lighter than the F-15E in terms of max weight.

The CS isn't really alone in not having a heavy bomber either. IIRC Triax lacks them, Northern Gun doesn't sell any, nor does Naurni, nor does Japan, or any of the South American (human and alien*) tech powers. I'm going to assume the Russian Warlords don't have any, nor does GeoFront in China.

It's also worth considering if the powers that be in Rifts Earth view them as useful or treat them as having gone the way we would view the horse cavlary (in a modern military). These people seem to view artillery (MercOps) as outdated because of the size and speed of augmented humans (PA, Borgs, Juicer/MoM), which is ironic because in most cases speed is hardly better than "conventional" platforms that remain (size might be an issue) not to mention the units in MercOps tend to out range SRMs (never mind the more common Mini which I could see replacing mortars but not howitzers).

It might also be worth considering the cost effectiveness of a Strategic/Heavy Bomber for the CS (or other Rifts power) at any given time along with the need for such a platform. The CS doesn't really have a need for one IMHO, as it is questionable if heavy bombers would be of use against their various known "hostile" neighbors for various (individual) reasons and running farther afield the CS has limited force projection to Europe and South America (never mind other continents). If an Aircastle is the baseline, the CS Fighters aren't much cheaper in monetary cost (though the CS cost in books is for Black Market cost as opposed to open market like the Aircastle, so some mark up exists here) though they don't have the same raw firepower, but they do come with a lower manpower cost (1 or 2, vs 14 PLUS maintenance for both).

*the Arkhons and/or Amaki might have them on their homeworlds. If the Arkhons have them they are either didn't bring any along or have chosen not to build new examples here. The Amaki colony IINM could import reserves from their homeworld, but so little detail exists on their native hardware.
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Re: Does the Coalition use the AC-29? If not...

Unread post by Jefffar »

How many CS MLRS systems does it take to equal the capacity of the AC-29?

How many CS MLRS systems can be purchased for the cost of one AC-29?

How many targets the CS cares about are out of the range of the nearest CS MLRS?

I think if you review the answers to those questions you'll find the CS doesn't need the AC-29 for mass LRM fire at the targets it cares about.
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Re: Does the Coalition use the AC-29? If not...

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

ShadowLogan wrote:
slade the sniper wrote:Not having bombers is a fault I see in the CS doctrine.

Is it really though? There are only 3 nations that currently operate Strategic/Heavy Bombers (China, Russia, and the USA), and Light bombers are replaced with Fighter/Attack aircraft. The F-15E can match a WWII B-29 heavy bomber in range via air refueling, but otherwise is a match for ordnance capacity (by max weight, though the F-15E is using some of that for fuel). The B-1B and B-52 (and B-2 and likely the B-21) would require several F-15E units to match the capacity, the F/A-18E/F (followed by the A-10) is a bit lighter than the F-15E in terms of max weight.

The CS isn't really alone in not having a heavy bomber either. IIRC Triax lacks them, Northern Gun doesn't sell any, nor does Naurni, nor does Japan, or any of the South American (human and alien*) tech powers. I'm going to assume the Russian Warlords don't have any, nor does GeoFront in China.

It's also worth considering if the powers that be in Rifts Earth view them as useful or treat them as having gone the way we would view the horse cavlary (in a modern military). These people seem to view artillery (MercOps) as outdated because of the size and speed of augmented humans (PA, Borgs, Juicer/MoM), which is ironic because in most cases speed is hardly better than "conventional" platforms that remain (size might be an issue) not to mention the units in MercOps tend to out range SRMs (never mind the more common Mini which I could see replacing mortars but not howitzers).

It might also be worth considering the cost effectiveness of a Strategic/Heavy Bomber for the CS (or other Rifts power) at any given time along with the need for such a platform. The CS doesn't really have a need for one IMHO, as it is questionable if heavy bombers would be of use against their various known "hostile" neighbors for various (individual) reasons and running farther afield the CS has limited force projection to Europe and South America (never mind other continents). If an Aircastle is the baseline, the CS Fighters aren't much cheaper in monetary cost (though the CS cost in books is for Black Market cost as opposed to open market like the Aircastle, so some mark up exists here) though they don't have the same raw firepower, but they do come with a lower manpower cost (1 or 2, vs 14 PLUS maintenance for both).

*the Arkhons and/or Amaki might have them on their homeworlds. If the Arkhons have them they are either didn't bring any along or have chosen not to build new examples here. The Amaki colony IINM could import reserves from their homeworld, but so little detail exists on their native hardware.



there are two roles that IRL heavy bombers fill.
long distance power projection across continents.. which the CS doesn't need.
strategic bombing of cities, factories, and other large targets. which historically has been utterly useless in actually effecting the outcome of a war.

well, three.. the delivery of nuclear weaponry. which is sort of an adjunct to both of the above.. but the CS is not in the business of vaporizing all its enemies using city killer nukes. end even if they were, the only reason you need a heavy bomber for it is either the bombs are too big (an issue the CS does not have in canon) or you need to deliver them across continents (an requirement the CS does not need)

if the CS really wants to deliver 200 kilotons of canned sunshine to someone, they have their tomahawk missiles from SB4, which are a more effective delivery system for their needs. and worst case they can load one of those W80 warheads from the T-hawks into a modified LRM for firing from their numerous platforms, or into an iron bomb for dropping from one of their smaller aircraft.
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Re: Does the Coalition use the AC-29? If not...

Unread post by Mack »

And keep in mind that Rifts is built around a player-party. It wouldn't be much fun if the GM said "a bomber showed up, roll new characters."

There's a lot of gaps in the CS TO&E.
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