Board index » MDC Worlds » Rifts®

 


Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.
Author Message
 Post subject: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:02 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Thu May 26, 2022 11:10 pm
Posts: 53
Okay. I've read in Rifts about how both City Rats and Juicers, just to name two examples, can change their O.C.C. to another class. How does this work? Can you actually have two or more O.C.C.s in Rifts or another Palladium game? I thought it was intended to be impossible.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:38 am
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6869
Location: WI
Yes, it is possible to have multiple OCCs in Rifts and they tend to follow the same basic mold in terms of moving from one class to the next in cases that can be cited. There is a Copy & Paste from the Palladium Fantasy line on the Cutting Room Floor that can be used in Rifts (and other lines using OCC system).

It should be noted this isn't an easy process either, you start at Level ZERO and have to progress to Level ONE. You also can't switch back and forth between OCCs you've selected, the old one(s) is frozen. This results in it being rare to switch OCCs.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:00 am
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:23 pm
Posts: 126
Location: The Motherland
In Rifts, they generally tell you what happens when that option becomes available--which isn't very often. Juicers, for example, go into detail about it on RUE p. 80 under "Select a New O.C.C." Other classes, like the Combat 'Borg, infer it but only give partial instructions about how to deal with the process.

Otherwise, the game has no official rules on changing your O.C.C., only the cutting room floor rules for Dual O.C.C.s that ShadowLogan referred to. Which, incidentally, are really awful and leave out way too much necessary information for the process. It's also contradictory to most of the existing rules mentioned above; Juicers, for instance, have it way harder when they switch classes... unless they decide not to detoxify, in which case they get all the perks and skills of the new O.C.C., of which they have free range to choose from.

In other words, neither Rifts nor the rest of Palladium's game were really built for multiclassing and trying to ham-fist it in is a dumpster fire.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:51 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:06 am
Posts: 37
The cutting room floor rules are not really as bad as they sound.

So changing from a grunt to ley line walker for example...
2nd level Grunt (1951 xp) can go to 3rd (3901) and then 4th (8801XP)
OR
0th LLW / then 1st LLW (costs 4481 xp, ie their "total" would have still been 3rd Grunt - 6432) but then they will hit 2nd LLW after 2241xp, where they would have only just be getting 4th Grunt.

So they could be 4th Grunt OR 1st Grunt / 2nd LLW... and further by the time they would get to 5th grunt they could be 1st grunt / 4th LLW.

The "cost" is even lower if they change at higher level. If you change at 4th grunt for instance - you will actually be 3rd / 4th 100 XP behind the single classed grunt getting 5th.

And all that is changing to the more expensive (psi or magic) option. If you change from one magic class to another you effectively have 7 levels of PPE+ and HP+ compared to 5 levels if you stay in your class. Honestly it is a major PPE boost to redo lower levels because the XP tables sort of double each level - yet your PPE bonus is static. vOv

(if you are a player in my game reading this - stop it ... just stop it)


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:56 am
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:23 pm
Posts: 126
Location: The Motherland
That's not the big problem with them (though when someone is, say, a 7/8th level character and everyone else is only 9th level due to the scaling of experience points, it's really unfair). Nevermind the sheer volume of truly broken builds you could do, levels aside.

The main problem is that they don't give any instructions or even suggestions on how to handle various situations. For example, what happens to a Gunslinger's perks, which are all designed around them being completely mundane, when they become a Juicer? Are you allowed to ignore racial restrictions, particularly for those races/R.C.C.s that already allow you to pick an O.C.C. from a limited list? Things of that nature. All the Dual O.C.C. rules address are skills, which is a very minor aspect of a character, all things considered.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:57 pm
  

User avatar
Rifts® Trivia Master

Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Posts: 13826
Location: Missouri
ardashir wrote:
Okay. I've read in Rifts about how both City Rats and Juicers, just to name two examples, can change their O.C.C. to another class. How does this work? Can you actually have two or more O.C.C.s in Rifts or another Palladium game? I thought it was intended to be impossible.

no you cannot have two active OCC's at the same time. there are rules for changing OCC's, but they basicallt represent you quitting your old OCC to begin a new one. the old OCC gets frozen and never progresses, and they require a fairly hefty penalty in XP to begin the new one.

_________________
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:33 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Thu May 26, 2022 11:10 pm
Posts: 53
Thank you everyone for the responses. It seems like, barring extraordinary events like a Juicer deciding to detox rather than die, or say some spellcaster getting horribly mangled and their friends 'saving' them via cyborgization, changing O.C.C.s is a bad idea.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:43 pm
  

User avatar
Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 17739
Location: Eastvale, calif
ardashir wrote:
Okay. I've read in Rifts about how both City Rats and Juicers, just to name two examples, can change their O.C.C. to another class. How does this work? Can you actually have two or more O.C.C.s in Rifts or another Palladium game? I thought it was intended to be impossible.

In the Palladium Books game system 'Multi-classing' and 'dual classing' are handled differently from D&D ed5. The difference is that the char Changes their Class. the old class is frozen at the changing point level.

Yes, it is impossible if you just have Rifts books.
For there are no Generalized Changing class rules within the Rifts game.

However, GMs can import the Changing class rules from the PF2 game, which are mainly in the High seas book and there are PCC specific rules imbedded in each PCC. (Since I'm talking about PF2 Rules...yess, there are PCCs.) But the text for the PCC specific rules all have the same text. They all say that no char can switch to a PCC and those char's with a PCC can't change their class.

Or GMs can make up their own changing class rules, or use some posted optional rules in the cutting room floor that you can choose to use if GM finds the canon PF2 rules are too strict. These optional rules are also of of the PF2 game, so it takes a GM to import them also.

_________________
Answering the OP's question with the canon answer should be done First.
After that you can post your house rules....as your house rules.

May you be blessed with understanding,
and the ability to change course when you are off the mark.


Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:56 pm
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:23 pm
Posts: 126
Location: The Motherland
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
In the Palladium Books game system 'Multi-classing' and 'dual classing' are handled differently from D&D.

Correction, from recent editions of D&D. Dual classing originated in older versions of the game, where humans gave up their previous class to persue a new one. In fact, it was required if you wanted to play what was arguably the first prestige class of the game, the Bard. And it effectively worked the same as what Palladium tried to do. Which is no surprise since a huge portion of Palladium's rules are stolen/bastardizations of those same versions of D&D.


Last edited by Crimson Dynamo on Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:43 am
  

Wanderer

Joined: Thu May 26, 2022 11:10 pm
Posts: 53
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
ardashir wrote:
Okay. I've read in Rifts about how both City Rats and Juicers, just to name two examples, can change their O.C.C. to another class. How does this work? Can you actually have two or more O.C.C.s in Rifts or another Palladium game? I thought it was intended to be impossible.

In the Palladium Books game system 'Multi-classing' and 'dual classing' are handled differently from D&D ed5. The difference is that the char Changes their Class. the old class is frozen at the changing point level.

Yes, it is impossible if you just have Rifts books.
For there are no Generalized Changing class rules within the Rifts game.

However, GMs can import the Changing class rules from the PF2 game, which are mainly in the High seas book and there are PCC specific rules imbedded in each PCC. (Since I'm talking about PF2 Rules...yess, there are PCCs.) But the text for the PCC specific rules all have the same text. They all say that no char can switch to a PCC and those char's with a PCC can't change their class.

Or GMs can make up their own changing class rules, or use some posted optional rules in the cutting room floor that you can choose to use if GM finds the canon PF2 rules are too strict. These optional rules are also of of the PF2 game, so it takes a GM to import them also.


Thanks for the advice on where to look for more information.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:09 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 30983
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
ardashir wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
ardashir wrote:
Okay. I've read in Rifts about how both City Rats and Juicers, just to name two examples, can change their O.C.C. to another class. How does this work? Can you actually have two or more O.C.C.s in Rifts or another Palladium game? I thought it was intended to be impossible.

In the Palladium Books game system 'Multi-classing' and 'dual classing' are handled differently from D&D ed5. The difference is that the char Changes their Class. the old class is frozen at the changing point level.

Yes, it is impossible if you just have Rifts books.
For there are no Generalized Changing class rules within the Rifts game.

However, GMs can import the Changing class rules from the PF2 game, which are mainly in the High seas book and there are PCC specific rules imbedded in each PCC. (Since I'm talking about PF2 Rules...yess, there are PCCs.) But the text for the PCC specific rules all have the same text. They all say that no char can switch to a PCC and those char's with a PCC can't change their class.

Or GMs can make up their own changing class rules, or use some posted optional rules in the cutting room floor that you can choose to use if GM finds the canon PF2 rules are too strict. These optional rules are also of of the PF2 game, so it takes a GM to import them also.


Thanks for the advice on where to look for more information.


Here's what the Cutting Room Floor has:

Dual OCCs
Characters that wish to learn a new O.C.C. must first advance at least one level in their current O.C.C./R.C.C. At second level (or wherever desired), they may opt for training in the new O.C.C. as SOON as they reach that new level (it cannot be done after they have advanced in their new experience level).

When the character begins their new training, they are zero-level in the new O.C.C. The character must earn experience points equal to the new O.C.C.'s second level (if Men of arms or adventurers) or third level (if magical or psychic). When that amount of experience points is acquired, the character has passed their apprenticeship and is now at first level in his new O.C.C.

Once characters change over to their new O.C.C., they retain their old skills (but frozen at the levels they achieved before the change) but all new PPE, S.D.C., and other increases will be based upon their new O.C.C. ALL new experience points are awarded to the new O.C.C.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:25 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Thu May 26, 2022 11:10 pm
Posts: 53
Killer Cyborg wrote:
ardashir wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
ardashir wrote:
Okay. I've read in Rifts about how both City Rats and Juicers, just to name two examples, can change their O.C.C. to another class. How does this work? Can you actually have two or more O.C.C.s in Rifts or another Palladium game? I thought it was intended to be impossible.

In the Palladium Books game system 'Multi-classing' and 'dual classing' are handled differently from D&D ed5. The difference is that the char Changes their Class. the old class is frozen at the changing point level.

Yes, it is impossible if you just have Rifts books.
For there are no Generalized Changing class rules within the Rifts game.

However, GMs can import the Changing class rules from the PF2 game, which are mainly in the High seas book and there are PCC specific rules imbedded in each PCC. (Since I'm talking about PF2 Rules...yess, there are PCCs.) But the text for the PCC specific rules all have the same text. They all say that no char can switch to a PCC and those char's with a PCC can't change their class.

Or GMs can make up their own changing class rules, or use some posted optional rules in the cutting room floor that you can choose to use if GM finds the canon PF2 rules are too strict. These optional rules are also of of the PF2 game, so it takes a GM to import them also.


Thanks for the advice on where to look for more information.


Here's what the Cutting Room Floor has:

Dual OCCs
Characters that wish to learn a new O.C.C. must first advance at least one level in their current O.C.C./R.C.C. At second level (or wherever desired), they may opt for training in the new O.C.C. as SOON as they reach that new level (it cannot be done after they have advanced in their new experience level).

When the character begins their new training, they are zero-level in the new O.C.C. The character must earn experience points equal to the new O.C.C.'s second level (if Men of arms or adventurers) or third level (if magical or psychic). When that amount of experience points is acquired, the character has passed their apprenticeship and is now at first level in his new O.C.C.

Once characters change over to their new O.C.C., they retain their old skills (but frozen at the levels they achieved before the change) but all new PPE, S.D.C., and other increases will be based upon their new O.C.C. ALL new experience points are awarded to the new O.C.C.


Thank you.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:26 am
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:21 am
Posts: 1368
one thing I will point out is according to the letter of the rules (if not the intent) there is no reason you couldn't respec to multiple classes:
such as men at arms type, then mage type, then psychic, then to a men of arms type, (either the original or another one)
I am not saying the gm would go for it (in most cases) but its neither explicitly allowed or DISallowed.
the main point is that any class you are not actively advancing is "frozen" and you can only have ONE active class (OCC) at a time.

the biggest issue with the "dual class/occ" rules is that they are very bare bones, and leave a lot of holes that you could fly a deaths head transport through


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:48 am
  

User avatar
Rifts® Trivia Master

Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Posts: 13826
Location: Missouri
guardiandashi wrote:
one thing I will point out is according to the letter of the rules (if not the intent) there is no reason you couldn't respec to multiple classes:
such as men at arms type, then mage type, then psychic, then to a men of arms type, (either the original or another one)
I am not saying the gm would go for it (in most cases) but its neither explicitly allowed or DISallowed.
the main point is that any class you are not actively advancing is "frozen" and you can only have ONE active class (OCC) at a time.

the biggest issue with the "dual class/occ" rules is that they are very bare bones, and leave a lot of holes that you could fly a deaths head transport through

by the rules you cannot advance in one of the frozen classes. once you have changed you are stuck advancing your new class, and cannot advance the old one.

which means these are not 'dual classing' in the D&D sense but rather career transition rules.

_________________
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:33 am
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:23 pm
Posts: 126
Location: The Motherland
glitterboy2098 wrote:
by the rules you cannot advance in one of the frozen classes. once you have changed you are stuck advancing your new class, and cannot advance the old one.

which means these are not 'dual classing' in the D&D sense but rather career transition rules.

Again, dual-classing came from AD&D. It worked nearly the same as it does with these butchered rules; you switched from one class to another. Dual-classing is not multiclassing. It never has been. Nor has anyone in this thread said that it is or works that way.

The post you quoted was pointing out that these rules -- again, just like the AD&D dual-classing rules -- allows you to dual-class as often as you want. And considering that most classes in Rifts are front-loaded anyway, picking up a load of Men-at-Arm and Adventurer & Scholar classes (or really any) at 2nd-3rd level won't even set you that far back due to the crazy way experience levels are in in the game. For example, a 7th-level Combat Cyborg has enough experience points (35,801) to let you be a 1st-level Wilderness Scout, 2nd-level Paratrooper, 2nd-level Juicer, 2nd-level Super-Spy, and still be a 6th-level Cyber-Knight (all of which I picked at random, nonsensical as it is).

And even if that player wanted to pick up yet another class, he'd have zipped through most of his levels catching up by the time the Combat Cyborg hit 8th level, and would only be one behind by 9th level. At which point he could pick up another class and be caught up yet again by the next level.

They're really awful rules.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:11 pm
  

User avatar
Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 17739
Location: Eastvale, calif
Yet the Published Changing Class rules are written in a way the presumes the Character only Changes their occupation once. And If the change is across basic ideas of the types of classes (man-at-arms, adventurer, man-of-magic) in their class changing they get a level up penalty.

Though, If I was GMing and someone tried to build a N&S char by changing their class multiple times like that I'd ether Veto it, or put a steep exp. penalty to the leveling up.

*puts on the Grammar Police hat so people can see it*
By the way, just a little OCD note, you didn't say Dual-classing was from AD&D in your other post, so saying 'again' it a bit off in your word usage.
*takes off the hat and hangs it up*

_________________
Answering the OP's question with the canon answer should be done First.
After that you can post your house rules....as your house rules.

May you be blessed with understanding,
and the ability to change course when you are off the mark.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:12 pm
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:23 pm
Posts: 126
Location: The Motherland
A few counterpoints.

1.) The Dual O.C.C.s rules are written in a way that says you can switch from your current class to a new one. The language does not bar you from doing so repeatedly, directly or indirectly. They're also not the published rules in the sense of being officially included in the books, as they literally come from a site labeled as the "cutting room floor."

2.) The penalty for choosing a Psychic or Practitioner of Magic class is minimal regarding my previous post. A 3rd-level Dog Boy O.C.C./3rd-level Psi-Tech O.C.C./7th-level Mind Melter O.C.C. costs the same amount of experience points to reach as an 8th-level Mind Melter O.C.C., with room to spare for another class or two if you really wanted to.

3.) AD&D refers to the 1st and 2nd editions of D&D which, believe it or not, are older versions of D&D.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:10 pm
  

User avatar
Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 17739
Location: Eastvale, calif
1) Since I'm talking about the Published Changing Class rules (which are in the PF2 HS gamebook & in ever PF2 PPC text), and looking at them as a whole, I was stating an observation about how they seam to say that the writer was making the presumption that a char wouldn't change their occupation more than once. Which is (I think) why they were written the way they were.

I wasn't commenting on the posted option rules in the cutting-room floor.
(Comment about those optional rules: they were quickly written, and meant to make select modifications to the Published Rules. And more to an eye for Rifts Player's wanting something quick/easy/not have to think about the why some classes shouldn't be allowed to change their classes nor allowed to be change to, because any change of class would violate the core concepts of those classes. But they wrote them anyways, but has never seen fit to Publish them.)

2. I was talking about the idea used as an example in referencing to the Published Changing Class rules, when I talked about penalties for changing classes cross class type classes as defined in the Published rules.
(as to your response just now: in the Published Rules ...the example you just made is impossible, because it violates the no change to/from any PCC. Note that My POV right now is looking at your example as how things happening in The PF2 Game where the Published Rules exist.)
[If you want to make a discussion about the differences between the Published Rules and the posted Optional Rules the proper forum is the PF forum. The Forum of the PB game, where they exist.]

Then I said what I might do as a GM if a player wanted to abuse what rules there are, to munchkin up their character.

3 I played D&D before there was AD&D edition. Blue and Red Boxes.
I was just pointing out you misspoke.
proper procedure
Spoiler:
when the grammar police come around: Review what I was pointing out and think about could be wrong with it. Then if you feel up to it make an edit to correct what you said.
Not post some factoid that has nothing to do with what was noted to you
.

_________________
Answering the OP's question with the canon answer should be done First.
After that you can post your house rules....as your house rules.

May you be blessed with understanding,
and the ability to change course when you are off the mark.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:55 pm
  

Champion

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
Posts: 1600
Comment: They/Them
Aww!

I'll note that the CRF rules are listed under PFRPG2 Errata, thus definitionally superseding those published previous.

There are plenty of NPCs which have three classes. The NPC Artificer requires it. Transformational PCs can swing it too, even in Rifts. An X/Juicer/Borg comes to mind, as does X/Blood Priest/Master Vampire.

I've been thinking about which classes might give the best benefits for switching into after a 1st level dip. For instance, a low level LLW switching into a BTS Arcanist (using the conversion book) loses out on improvement of some of their ley line abilities, but gains a considerable skill list and 6d6 PPE/level.

_________________
Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:00 pm
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:23 pm
Posts: 126
Location: The Motherland
Re: drewkitty ~..~

Again, you're in the Rifts forum discussing Rifts rules for Rifts characters. I'm not quite sure why you keep missing that fact.

Also again, AD&D is an older version of D&D. Even if Basic D&D--which is what you're referring to--is older still, irrelevant as that is since they didn't have rules for dual-classing. I also have no idea why you believe yourself to be the only D&D grognard in the world, but you know what they say about people who assume.

Lastly, if you're going to pride yourself on being a "grammar Nazi," you may want to read over your own posts before hitting the submit button in the future so as not to come across as a hypocrite. They're chock-full of misspellings, misuses of punctuation, inappropriate proper nouns and other misuses of capitalization, and just atrocious grammar all around.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:40 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 6350
Location: Clone Lab 27
glitterboy2098 wrote:
guardiandashi wrote:
one thing I will point out is according to the letter of the rules (if not the intent) there is no reason you couldn't respec to multiple classes:
such as men at arms type, then mage type, then psychic, then to a men of arms type, (either the original or another one)
I am not saying the gm would go for it (in most cases) but its neither explicitly allowed or DISallowed.
the main point is that any class you are not actively advancing is "frozen" and you can only have ONE active class (OCC) at a time.

the biggest issue with the "dual class/occ" rules is that they are very bare bones, and leave a lot of holes that you could fly a deaths head transport through

by the rules you cannot advance in one of the frozen classes. once you have changed you are stuck advancing your new class, and cannot advance the old one.

which means these are not 'dual classing' in the D&D sense but rather career transition rules.

Depends on the edition.
In second edition dual classing was humans only you stop advancing in the first class it is frozen and start leveling in a second. (Just like PB,) muliti-classing was non humans and allowed them to advance in more than one class at time.
That went away in third edition and you got pick your level multi-classing for every one.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:14 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 6350
Location: Clone Lab 27
Crimson Dynamo wrote:
A few counterpoints.

1.) The Dual O.C.C.s rules are written in a way that says you can switch from your current class to a new one. The language does not bar you from doing so repeatedly, directly or indirectly. They're also not the published rules in the sense of being officially included in the books, as they literally come from a site labeled as the "cutting room floor."

2.) The penalty for choosing a Psychic or Practitioner of Magic class is minimal regarding my previous post. A 3rd-level Dog Boy O.C.C./3rd-level Psi-Tech O.C.C./7th-level Mind Melter O.C.C. costs the same amount of experience points to reach as an 8th-level Mind Melter O.C.C., with room to spare for another class or two if you really wanted to.

3.) AD&D refers to the 1st and 2nd editions of D&D which, believe it or not, are older versions of D&D.

1 while the source you went to is the cutting room floor, their is a published version of them in PF 2nd high seas.

2. The penalty is that the old class is frozen and will never level up again. While you could change classes frequently to get a bunch of powers they would not be as good as some one dedicated, and your skills would not advance far. (lower levels you advance quicker through.) Jack of all trades master of none.

Lets say you started as a mind melter the mind melter is level 7, that means 35,921 exp at least, (depending on the GMs reading it could be the change happens in place of leveling the old class so you could be required to get 8th level experience.) Now then you going into dog boy 3,901 exp to reach level 1, then you want to go to level 7 in the new class. 35,601 experience that is well over the experience needed to reach level 9 in mind melter. So you are down 2 levels (or more) given the PB stock amounts of experience you could take several sessions just to reach level 1 in a class. So while it may look broken if you are jumping classes and staying low level but if the penalty is felt when trying to level beyond low levels. It allows a player to get close enough in the new class to be use full but not quite catch up to a dedicated character.

I do not think the cost to reach level 1 is intended as a penalty but a cost.

3. Odd that you are one of the main ones bringing D&D into it but you attacked Drewkitty for addressing it. While the focus is rifts posters can address anything a poster says. And they will attempt to correct mistakes.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:34 am
  

User avatar
Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 17739
Location: Eastvale, calif
Crimson Dynamo wrote:
Re: drewkitty ~..~

Again, you're in the Rifts forum discussing Rifts rules for Rifts characters. I'm not quite sure why you keep missing that fact.
...snip

The whole topic is about Rules in a Different Game. Which is why I rightly suggested that the discussion be moved to the PF forum so it could be discussed in the proper forum.
If you don't understand the " Why's " I would say the example that you gave is impossible under the Published Changing Class Rules, I would be glad to discuss it in the PF forum.

Pride? myself as a "grammar nazi'?? No I'm just OCD about words.

Misspelling....I use spell check on everything.
Capitalization can be used to EMPHASIZE different words. To make them Stand Out.
Punctuation.....My punctuation makes what I say mean what I mean. Punctuation can also be used to make " Make Things Stand Out ".
Do I have a bit of run-on sentences....yes, but that is par for the course when talking about BBS when people are typing out spoken level sentences.

Since you are rejecting mild critiquing by attacking.....

Now, if y'all want to discuss the PF Changing Class Rules, ether the Published ones, or the posted Optional ones on the CRF. I would be glad to discuss them in the PF forum.

_________________
Answering the OP's question with the canon answer should be done First.
After that you can post your house rules....as your house rules.

May you be blessed with understanding,
and the ability to change course when you are off the mark.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:25 am
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:23 pm
Posts: 126
Location: The Motherland
Blue_Lion wrote:
1 while the source you went to is the cutting room floor, their is a published version of them in PF 2nd high seas.

No one claimed otherwise. But the Cutting Room Floor rules are the ones that were written specifically for Rifts, they just never made it into a published book. There's also the "more recent rules" concept in Palladium Books' games as well, though I don't particularly prescribe to that philosophy when talking cross-product.

There's also a lot of meaningless fluff for Rifts in the Palladium Fantasy rules, such as mention of special rules for P.C.C.s which aren't a thing in Rifts. Which is why they weren't included in the cutting room floor rules.

Quote:
2. The penalty is that the old class is frozen and will never level up again. While you could change classes frequently to get a bunch of powers they would not be as good as some one dedicated, and your skills would not advance far. (lower levels you advance quicker through.) Jack of all trades master of none.

Again, I never claimed otherwise and even mentioned that repeatedly. Perhaps going back to read over the thread in full prior to replying would be beneficial.

And also again, your example is cherry picked exclusively to demonstrate your point, which is a tactic done specifically out of bad faith. You also seem to think your character level really means a lot; at most it's a couple of pluses and a few percentile points in some skills. In the case of psychics and magicians, it also means losing out on a power or spell or two, but that's nothing compared to what you get for taking another class since they are--again--all front-loaded. Which is nothing compared to the breadth of abilities gained by taking another class. Especially with how quickly you'd power through the levels by the next time your companions reach their next level. Doubly so if you're specifically choosing your classes in a way to pick up a lot of static abilities first, then focusing on the actual class you want to focus on that's more level dependent. Which when dealing with munchkins and powergamers, which is what the concern is over, is completely in line with the sort of thing they'd be doing.

If abilities and powers were better distributed through a class's levels as they are in D&D (relatively speaking), it'd be less of a problem. But that's just not the way things are in any of Palladium's games, Rifts specifically.

Quote:
I do not think the cost to reach level 1 is intended as a penalty but a cost.

That's like saying "it's not a skin color, but a pigmentation." Tomato, tomato.

Quote:
3. Odd that you are one of the main ones bringing D&D into it but you attacked Drewkitty for addressing it. While the focus is rifts posters can address anything a poster says. And they will attempt to correct mistakes.

Again, you should really go back over and read over the entire thread. 1.) He brought up D&D. 2.) I corrected the minor mistake he made about it, pointing out that D&D did indeed come up with the concept first in older editions. 3.) He then decided to put on his "grammar police hat" (with complete hypocrisy and a total lack of self-awareness) and started attacking me left and right, all the while being wrong on the subject in every subsequent post, demanding I go back and edit my posts, and whatever other insanity he continued to ramble on about. He's also been chasing me through different threads doing the same thing.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:31 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 6350
Location: Clone Lab 27
Crimson Dynamo wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
1 while the source you went to is the cutting room floor, their is a published version of them in PF 2nd high seas.

No one claimed otherwise. But the Cutting Room Floor rules are the ones that were written specifically for Rifts, they just never made it into a published book. There's also the "more recent rules" concept in Palladium Books' games as well, though I don't particularly prescribe to that philosophy when talking cross-product.

There's also a lot of meaningless fluff for Rifts in the Palladium Fantasy rules, such as mention of special rules for P.C.C.s which aren't a thing in Rifts. Which is why they weren't included in the cutting room floor rules.

Quote:
2. The penalty is that the old class is frozen and will never level up again. While you could change classes frequently to get a bunch of powers they would not be as good as some one dedicated, and your skills would not advance far. (lower levels you advance quicker through.) Jack of all trades master of none.

Again, I never claimed otherwise and even mentioned that repeatedly. Perhaps going back to read over the thread in full prior to replying would be beneficial.

And also again, your example is cherry picked exclusively to demonstrate your point, which is a tactic done specifically out of bad faith. You also seem to think your character level really means a lot; at most it's a couple of pluses and a few percentile points in some skills. In the case of psychics and magicians, it also means losing out on a power or spell or two, but that's nothing compared to what you get for taking another class since they are--again--all front-loaded. Which is nothing compared to the breadth of abilities gained by taking another class. Especially with how quickly you'd power through the levels by the next time your companions reach their next level. Doubly so if you're specifically choosing your classes in a way to pick up a lot of static abilities first, then focusing on the actual class you want to focus on that's more level dependent. Which when dealing with munchkins and powergamers, which is what the concern is over, is completely in line with the sort of thing they'd be doing.

If abilities and powers were better distributed through a class's levels as they are in D&D (relatively speaking), it'd be less of a problem. But that's just not the way things are in any of Palladium's games, Rifts specifically.

Quote:
I do not think the cost to reach level 1 is intended as a penalty but a cost.

That's like saying "it's not a skin color, but a pigmentation." Tomato, tomato.

Quote:
3. Odd that you are one of the main ones bringing D&D into it but you attacked Drewkitty for addressing it. While the focus is rifts posters can address anything a poster says. And they will attempt to correct mistakes.

Again, you should really go back over and read over the entire thread. 1.) He brought up D&D. 2.) I corrected the minor mistake he made about it, pointing out that D&D did indeed come up with the concept first in older editions. 3.) He then decided to put on his "grammar police hat" (with complete hypocrisy and a total lack of self-awareness) and started attacking me left and right, all the while being wrong on the subject in every subsequent post, demanding I go back and edit my posts, and whatever other insanity he continued to ramble on about. He's also been chasing me through different threads doing the same thing.


1- You claimed the rules where unpublished, but they where published in another line. (to my knowledge the rules in the cutting room floor where written for PB in general not specifically rifts.) So the rules are as I said are published in another line. (rules are not always published in every line but can be used in more than just the line they are published in.) The rules published in PF are more official than the ones on the cutting room floor.

There can be PCC in rifts because rifts because they exist in other lines and rifts is set up so it can import things from other lines. This means it does need to address things in other lines at times. (I may be wrong but as I recall the order of evolution of psi classes in rifts was RCC to PCC then 0CC. so they where offical to rifts at one time)

The cutting room floor is a unpolished version of the rules from PF.(I find it odd you are claiming they are for rifts but listed under PF2 rules in the cutting room floor -Dual OCC. That kinda states they are the PF rules.) Your opinion on unnecessary fluff in the rules is noted as just that your opinion and not a fact.

2. My example did not cherry pick just part of the rule. Calling it cherry picking when it shows how the thing normally work with the rule seams more dismissive.
I was showing the affect of changing over time, instead of creating a case to try and make them appear broken.
My jack of all trades master of none, was to highlight the flaw in your taking a bunch of low level occs. You are not advancing your skills, so while some one could take a bunch of OCC like you pointed out they would not be advancing beyond a point. I did not look at the rule in a vacuum, or take just part of it so I did not cherry pick in my example.

Penalty is used to discourage an action.
Cost is something paid to do something or get something.
So they are more significant difference than skin color and pigmentation as you claimed.

3. I did read the whole thread. Your instructions that I need to are dismissive to a valid point, and possibly boarder line personal attack.
Drew kitty mentioned it in passing you where the one that went into details on it and kept doing so making it a part of the discussion, then you attack him for addressing it. So as I said while he did mention it first you are one of the main posters dragging in it.

**Perhaps instead of making dismissive comments about other peoples post it might be more productive to acutally address what they said.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:27 am
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6869
Location: WI
Blue_Lion wrote:
1- You claimed the rules where unpublished, but they where published in another line. (to my knowledge the rules in the cutting room floor where written for PB in general not specifically rifts.) So the rules are as I said are published in another line. (rules are not always published in every line but can be used in more than just the line they are published in.) The rules published in PF are more official than the ones on the cutting room floor.

Not disputing anything said here, just want to add that Megaversally the old 1E Robotech Line also included a form of these rules in two of their books (Main RPG and the Sentinels Main RPG both in the character creation steps found under selecting your OCC), which IINM might predate the PF rules. The main difference with the RT rules was the XP requirement to go from Level O/ZERO to Level 1/ONE and that OCC where not categorized in the setting (M@A, Adv, mage/psychic) which would explain the flat requirement.

Blue_Lion wrote:
My jack of all trades master of none, was to highlight the flaw in your taking a bunch of low level occs. You are not advancing your skills, so while some one could take a bunch of OCC like you pointed out they would not be advancing beyond a point. I did not look at the rule in a vacuum, or take just part of it so I did not cherry pick in my example.

I have to concur here. In terms of general skill proficiency/bonuses it favors the single class over the mixed class of lower levels. (Some skills might be better due to class bonuses to them that are equal to a few levels)


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:33 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:06 am
Posts: 37
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
1) Since I'm talking about the Published Changing Class rules (which are in the PF2 HS gamebook & in ever PF2 PPC text), and looking at them as a whole, I was stating an observation about how they seam to say that the writer was making the presumption that a char wouldn't change their occupation more than once. Which is (I think) why they were written the way they were.

Pride? myself as a "grammar nazi'?? No I'm just OCD about words.

Misspelling....I use spell check on everything.
Capitalization can be used to EMPHASIZE different words. To make them Stand Out.
Punctuation.....My punctuation makes what I say mean what I mean. Punctuation can also be used to make " Make Things Stand Out ".


You spell check everything? Well you should try reading and checking yourself because there are a lot of mistakes "auto-correct" will not find:
"in ever PF2 PPC text" … I assume in this case you mean "every", so either you misspelled every OR simply used the wrong word.
"how they seam to say" … Again either you don't know that the word seam means something very different to seem, or you misspelled the word.
"used to make "Make Things Stand Out" … double word use.

No one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes but since you have a habit of personally messaging people and pointing out their mistakes in forums; you might want to check your own more carefully. Especially in a post where you are trying to prove that someone else was mistaken in pointing out your mistakes. And all those mistakes are in one single forum.

Have fun.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:48 am
  

Wanderer

Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:33 am
Posts: 50
Aggregating various comments from above:

-The are basically two ways changing OCCs are handled in Palladium:

1st-The Generic Rule (described in Palladium Fantasy High Seas and "Cutting Room Floor" webpage):
Pick a new class, after achieving a set ammount of experience, you continue in your new class at 1st level, accruing all the normal benefits and abilities. You keep all the skills and abilities of your old class, but they're frozen at their current level.

-2nd: Various Class Specific Rules (Borg, Crazie, Juicer, T-Man, Bio-Borg, Sea Titan, ect.)
Most of these appear in the class description for that specific class (except the 'Borg rules that appear in the Bionics Sourcebook, and the Crazy rules that appear in Mindwerks IIR). They're all a little different, but with few exceptions, they follow a similar pattern: The character undergoes a massive physical change (Cybernetic augmentation, Juicer or Crazy upgrade, Juicer detox, excessive Tattoo Magic or Bio-Wizardry enhancement) that obliges them to change OCCs. Usually, they retain skills from their old class, but they're frozen, and suffer significant penalties. Generally old class abilities (especially magic or psionics) are lost as well.

For Crazies, Bio-Borgs, T-Men (and Borgs too, IIRC) there's a cool threshold mechanic: up to a certain level of enhancement, you're just adding additional special abilities onto your old class. But, past a certain level, you've fundamentally changed and must take on a new OCC.

In general, the class-specific rules handle class changesas a matter of character development and role-playing, and reasonably manage the front-loaded nature of Palladium classes by imposing penalties on old class abilities; whereas the generalized rules are kind wild-west, do-what-you-want, and are subject to a lot of abuse.

The Sea Titan's rules are an exception: they do just take a new class without penalty. But, it's implied they can only do this after reaching a high level, and they're immortal, so...


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:35 am
  

User avatar
Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:01 pm
Posts: 297
Location: Montana
EliBenedict wrote:
whereas the generalized rules are kind wild-west, do-what-you-want, and are subject to a lot of abuse.


Abuse and/or house rules. Which are method number 3 through (insert the number of Palladium system GMs that have modified those rules here).


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:26 pm
  

User avatar
Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 17739
Location: Eastvale, calif
EliBenedict wrote:
Aggregating various comments from above:

-The are basically two ways changing OCCs are handled in Palladium:

1st-The Generic Rule (described in Palladium Fantasy High Seas and "Cutting Room Floor" webpage):
Pick a new class, after achieving a set ammount of experience, you continue in your new class at 1st level, accruing all the normal benefits and abilities. You keep all the skills and abilities of your old class, but they're frozen at their current level.
.....

The Published Rule have two specific requirements: 1) the Char has an OCC and they change to an OCC, 2) they can not be a master psychic class, nor can the change be to a master psi class.

_________________
Answering the OP's question with the canon answer should be done First.
After that you can post your house rules....as your house rules.

May you be blessed with understanding,
and the ability to change course when you are off the mark.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:23 pm
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:23 pm
Posts: 126
Location: The Motherland
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The Published Rule have two specific requirements: 1) the Char has an OCC and they change to an OCC, 2) they can not be a master psychic class, nor can the change be to a master psi class.

Yet they can with the updated rules that were intended for Rifts, which specifically mentions the allowance of psychic classes.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:55 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 6350
Location: Clone Lab 27
Crimson Dynamo wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The Published Rule have two specific requirements: 1) the Char has an OCC and they change to an OCC, 2) they can not be a master psychic class, nor can the change be to a master psi class.

Yet they can with the updated rules that were intended for Rifts, which specifically mentions the allowance of psychic classes.

Why do you keep claiming a rule listed in the cutting room floor as being for PF is intended for rifts?

https://palladiumbooks.com/questions-re ... room-floor

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:59 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 6350
Location: Clone Lab 27
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
EliBenedict wrote:
Aggregating various comments from above:

-The are basically two ways changing OCCs are handled in Palladium:

1st-The Generic Rule (described in Palladium Fantasy High Seas and "Cutting Room Floor" webpage):
Pick a new class, after achieving a set ammount of experience, you continue in your new class at 1st level, accruing all the normal benefits and abilities. You keep all the skills and abilities of your old class, but they're frozen at their current level.
.....

The Published Rule have two specific requirements: 1) the Char has an OCC and they change to an OCC, 2) they can not be a master psychic class, nor can the change be to a master psi class.

Where are the requirements listed?

My PDf copy of high seas from drive through RPG dated Feb 2018 does not mention anything about not being a master psychic. Only requirements I see is must be an OCC, you must meet the requirements of the OCC you are changing to.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:18 pm
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:23 pm
Posts: 126
Location: The Motherland
Blue_Lion wrote:
Why do you keep claiming a rule listed in the cutting room floor as being for PF is intended for rifts?

https://palladiumbooks.com/questions-re ... room-floor

Doesn't matter. Thanks for pointing it out though, as it proves him even more wrong in his repeated claims about psychics being excluded.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:03 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 6350
Location: Clone Lab 27
Crimson Dynamo wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Why do you keep claiming a rule listed in the cutting room floor as being for PF is intended for rifts?

https://palladiumbooks.com/questions-re ... room-floor

Doesn't matter. Thanks for pointing it out though, as it proves him even more wrong in his repeated claims about psychics being excluded.

It matters because a core of your stance has been the use of the outdated rules on the cutting room floor over the published rules that are in PF. Like when I pointed out it was published in PF but you insisted that the rules in the cutting room floor where different and for rifts.

High seas contains several things listed the cutting room floor, including spells listed as being missing.
This indicates previously unpublished material was included in high seas when it came out. (I know the dual OCC rules where on the web site when I joined PB.)

It does not as you claim prove him more wrong. Before we can saying Drewkitty is wrong we must first find out where he is getting the information to see if it is there. (Made harder by PB shadow updates.) As several posters that I know are knowledgeable on the rules have made the claim about no multi-classing PSI in the past there is likely a source.

Instead of saying the poster is wrong fact check the source. Like I did. What we need to know is where he is looking, to see what it says.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:19 pm
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:23 pm
Posts: 126
Location: The Motherland
Blue_Lion wrote:
It matters because a core of your stance has been the use of the outdated rules on the cutting room floor over the published rules that are in PF.

Remind me, which came first?

Blue_Lion wrote:
Instead of saying the poster is wrong fact check the source. Like I did. What we need to know is where he is looking, to see what it says.

Remind me, what type of class is the Mind Melter, Dog Boy, and Burster in RUE again? (Pro-tip, they have a really convenient acronym. It looks something like "O.C.C." rather than "P.C.C." if that helps.) And then remind me what forum we're in again as well?

And keep in mind the only reason he's whining is because he was proven wrong about P.C.C.s in another thread, and chased me into this one to continue said whining.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:22 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:21 am
Posts: 1368
Crimson Dynamo wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
It matters because a core of your stance has been the use of the outdated rules on the cutting room floor over the published rules that are in PF.

Remind me, which came first?

Blue_Lion wrote:
Instead of saying the poster is wrong fact check the source. Like I did. What we need to know is where he is looking, to see what it says.

Remind me, what type of class is the Mind Melter, Dog Boy, and Burster in RUE again? (Pro-tip, they have a really convenient acronym. It looks something like "O.C.C." rather than "P.C.C." if that helps.) And then remind me what forum we're in again as well?

And keep in mind the only reason he's whining is because he was proven wrong about P.C.C.s in another thread, and chased me into this one to continue said whining.


the pf high seas came out LONG before the cutting floor article actually, the cutting room floor article is more recent UNLESS there was a shadow update to the high seas book.

the high seas book specifically lists 3 pf psychic classes that cannot be dual classed into or out of. of course the cutting room floor aricle does NOT list those classes because they do NOT exist in rifts they ONLY exist in PF.

the cutting room floor article references the PF high seas book as more evidence the book came first


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:41 pm
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:23 pm
Posts: 126
Location: The Motherland
That was the point of me asking. But I've found that if you just tell people things, they get uppity. It's more amusing to ask them to look it up themselves and then flounder as they try to change what they said.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:00 pm
  

User avatar
Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 17739
Location: Eastvale, calif
Crimson Dynamo wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The Published Rule have two specific requirements: 1) the Char has an OCC and they change to an OCC, 2) they can not be a master psychic class, nor can the change be to a master psi class.

Yet they can with the updated rules that were intended for Rifts, which specifically mentions the allowance of psychic classes.

Those are the Optional rules that are posted in the cutting room floor, yes.

-----------
Ah....why is it that the posted Optional Rules still a part of the PF2 Game?
--Where are they in the CRF?? They are in the PF section of the CRF...... :roll:

----------
Why did they write & post the Optional rules?
--Because Rifts players trended to be younger and less willing to think about things through for themselves and find the limitations of concepts, so they made the Optional rules to be 'More Accessible' to the players of the cash cow.
At the time PB put out RUE, that is what they said that to make the game 'More Accessible' (In not so many words) was the 'guiding principle' when trying to address people's complaints about confusing elements in Rifts.

Of course the current Optional rules are a revised version from what was org. posted there.
(Didn't realy change them...just used more words to say about the same thing.)

------
guardiandashi wrote:
the high seas book specifically lists 3 pf psychic classes that cannot be dual classed into or out of.

What page? I have the 1st printing of the 2nd ed High seas book and I don't see Any mention of PCCs on page 10 (where the published changing class rules are.)


Actually in Every Psychic Class in the PF2 game has text forbiding them from being a part of a char that has changed their class.
Quote:
Multiple OCC's are not possible.

_________________
Answering the OP's question with the canon answer should be done First.
After that you can post your house rules....as your house rules.

May you be blessed with understanding,
and the ability to change course when you are off the mark.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:54 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 30983
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Actually in Every Psychic Class in the PF2 game has text forbiding them from being a part of a char that has changed their class.
Quote:
Multiple OCC's are not possible.


I think Palladium differentiates between "multi-classing" and "dual classing," though I can't be sure as I don't have my books handy.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:55 pm
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:23 pm
Posts: 126
Location: The Motherland
There is, again, multiple examples of characters with two or more classes scattered throughout the books. I dare say dual-classing, even into multiple different classes, is relatively common, despite no official rules existing for Rifts. Reid's Ranger from the first world book, alone, has one third of the group as dual-classed characters. Though to be fair, one of them is a transition from Cyber-Doc to Borg, but looking at his stats, it looks like a straight dual-classing rather than the Borg conversion rules.

Also, and at the risk of repeating myself again, "dual-classing" (the act of changing from one class to another) is just a borrowed term from older versions of D&D. It doesn't literally mean "only two classes." It never has; the first 'prestige' class of the game was the Bard who required you to dual-class between a Fighter, Thief, and Druid before officially becoming Bards. It was just a term, in D&D, used to differentiate the mechanic from multiclassing which was completely different (leveling two or three classes simultaneously). Which is completely different from how it works in later editions (which, ironically, is closer to dual-classing than it is multiclassing, while the older form of multiclassing is closer to how gestalting/tristalting works).

Similarly, the outdated and clumsily-written rules in High Seas are labeled "Multiple O.C.C.s", which suggests a limit of only two classes ("I don't recommend a third O.C.C selection, as this can become funky and cumbersome"), while the language of the updated but unpublished rules, labeled "Dual O.C.C.s", allows you to do it as often as you want. Which just makes the whole thing humorous.

English, gotta love it.

TL;DR: Don't let the word "dual" throw you. The updated rules allow you to do it as often you want, or until your GM smacks you upside the head; whichever comes first.

----------

Oh, and in response to the earlier comments, tell me which has the advantage: A dual-classed (aka, not-detoxified) 1st-level Juicer/14th-level Gunslinger, or a 15th-level Gunslinger. Keeping in mind that in just a couple thousand XP--trivial as that is at those levels--the first one will be 15th level, too. Or if you want to go with the full amount of experience difference for a full max level of Gunslinger because you (rightfully) don't care about that 1-5% skill difference, that would make them about an 8th-level Juicer/14th-level Gunslinger vs. 15th-level Gunslinger.

Then compare, say, a 1st-level Psi-Slinger/4rd-level Gun Master to a 5th-level Gunmaster OR Psi-Slinger (with, again, the first character catching up in level a couple of thousand xp later; a difference that diminishes with each level and which goes away at max level). Or any other similar combination that a powergamer/munchkin would go for. Then try to convince the world the rules are fine and balanced, with nothing but disadvantages for the dual-classed characters.

Also, keep in mind that nothing stops you from choosing the same skills for both classes. You'll just get the higher of the two until the new class outmatches it. Which goes for Hand to Hand and W.P. skills, too. "Oh no, I'm 1-5% behind on my skill percentages, however will that compete with the sheer breadth of other abilities I have?!"


Last edited by Crimson Dynamo on Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:59 am
  

Wanderer

Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:33 am
Posts: 50
I'm not sure the fact that the "Dual OCCs" cutting room floor content appears under the heading "Palladium Fantasy" means those rules are intended to be limited to PF games.

"The Credit Question" cutting room floor content deals with CS monetary policy in North America, but appears under the heading "RIFTS Africa," as does the "Standard Rate of Fire" content. Presumably the physics of energy weapons and pulse rifles are the same in RIFTS Africa as elsewhere in the world.

Palladium content is notoriously poorly organized (Remember how Mega-Hero power category listing for HU2 failed in basic alphabetization?) Reading meaningful rule content into their organizational choices is ill-advised.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:13 am
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 30983
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
EliBenedict wrote:
I'm not sure the fact that the "Dual OCCs" cutting room floor content appears under the heading "Palladium Fantasy" means those rules are intended to be limited to PF games.


It doesn't.
It's a megaversal system, so rules can and should share freely whenever there isn't conflict.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:27 am
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 30983
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Crimson Dynamo wrote:
There is, again, multiple examples of characters with two or more classes scattered throughout the books. I dare say dual-classing, even into multiple different classes, is relatively common, despite no official rules existing for Rifts. Reid's Ranger from the first world book, alone, has one third of the group as dual-classed characters. Though to be fair, one of them is a transition from Cyber-Doc to Borg, but looking at his stats, it looks like a straight dual-classing rather than the Borg conversion rules.

Also, and at the risk of repeating myself again, "dual-classing" (the act of changing from one class to another) is just a borrowed term from older versions of D&D. It doesn't literally mean "only two classes." It never has; the first 'prestige' class of the game was the Bard who required you to dual-class between a Fighter, Thief, and Druid before officially becoming Bards. It was just a term, in D&D, used to differentiate the mechanic from multiclassing which was completely different (leveling two or three classes simultaneously). Which is completely different from how it works in later editions (which, ironically, is closer to dual-classing than it is multiclassing, while the older form of multiclassing is closer to how gestalting/tristalting works).

Similarly, the outdated and clumsily-written rules in High Seas are labeled "Multiple O.C.C.s", which suggests a limit of only two classes ("I don't recommend a third O.C.C selection, as this can become funky and cumbersome"), while the language of the updated but unpublished rules, labeled "Dual O.C.C.s", allows you to do it as often as you want. Which just makes the whole thing humorous.

English, gotta love it.

TL;DR: Don't let the word "dual" throw you. The updated rules allow you to do it as often you want, or until your GM smacks you upside the head; whichever comes first.

----------

Oh, and in response to the earlier comments, tell me which has the advantage: A dual-classed (aka, not-detoxified) 1st-level Juicer/14th-level Gunslinger, or a 15th-level Gunslinger. Keeping in mind that in just a couple thousand XP--trivial as that is at those levels--the first one will be 15th level, too. Or if you want to go with the full amount of experience difference for a full max level of Gunslinger because you (rightfully) don't care about that 1-5% skill difference, that would make them about an 8th-level Juicer/14th-level Gunslinger vs. 15th-level Gunslinger.

Then compare, say, a 1st-level Psi-Slinger/4rd-level Gun Master to a 5th-level Gunmaster OR Psi-Slinger (with, again, the first character catching up in level a couple of thousand xp later; a difference that diminishes with each level and which goes away at max level). Or any other similar combination that a powergamer/munchkin would go for. Then try to convince the world the rules are fine and balanced, with nothing but disadvantages for the dual-classed characters.

Also, keep in mind that nothing stops you from choosing the same skills for both classes. You'll just get the higher of the two until the new class outmatches it. Which goes for Hand to Hand and W.P. skills, too. "Oh no, I'm 1-5% behind on my skill percentages, however will that compete with the sheer breadth of other abilities I have?!"


Yup.
My memory tells me that at one point Palladium said something along the lines of "multi-classing is NOT possible!" followed by "But here's how to Dual Class," with their distinction between the two being somewhat unclear, but implied to be that Palladium saw "multi-classing" as simultaneously being able to level up in more than one class, and dual classing being the ability to change classes.

BUT I can't find anything about that now, so my memory might be playing tricks on me.
Sometimes when this sort of thing happens I eventually stumble onto the passage I'm thinking of in an unexpected place, and sometimes it appears to be just a phantom of my own mind, or something where I've confused Palladium with another system.

Anyway, yes, the word "dual" doesn't seem to have any importance when it comes to the number of times you can change classes in Palladium.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:54 am
  

User avatar
Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 17739
Location: Eastvale, calif
Killer Cyborg wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Actually in Every Psychic Class in the PF2 game has text forbidding them from being a part of a char that has changed their class.
Quote:
Multiple OCC's are not possible.


I think Palladium differentiates between "multi-classing" and "dual classing," though I can't be sure as I don't have my books handy.

You notice that the Prohibition does not mention the terms 'Multi-classing' nor 'Dual class'.
It just states a simple statement about what can't be done.

------
Megaversalality...only means that the games use the same basic RPG game system, so the rules are easy to import to different games. And yes GMs are invited to import rules into their games.
However, it still takes an "Act of GM" to bring a rule from one PB Game to a different PB Game.
Any Act of GM in a game is a House Rule for ether 'that campaign' or 'that GM'.


-----
Dual classing in the PF cuttingroom floor....of course they were 'meant' for rifters to use with their (as I explained before.) But like with a lot of PB writing, the execution of the idea was less than stellar. So while their idea was for something simple that rifts players can use to mangle the game even further with munchkinisum, putting the Optional rule in the PF cuttingroom floor section made it still a PF rule.

_________________
Answering the OP's question with the canon answer should be done First.
After that you can post your house rules....as your house rules.

May you be blessed with understanding,
and the ability to change course when you are off the mark.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:15 am
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 30983
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Megaversalality...only means that the games use the same basic RPG game system, so the rules are easy to import to different games.


We've gone back and forth over this many times, but I don't think you've ever provided a solid source for that claim.
Meanwhile, there are plenty of times (which I can find for you again if you like) where Palladium flat-out states that all their games are compatible, and/or that all their games use "one system."

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:34 am
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:23 pm
Posts: 126
Location: The Motherland
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Meanwhile, there are plenty of times (which I can find for you again if you like) where Palladium flat-out states that all their games are compatible, and/or that all their games use "one system."

Every single Conversion Book waves hello at you. (In case that was too subtle: You wouldn't need conversion rules if that were true.)


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:01 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 30983
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Crimson Dynamo wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Meanwhile, there are plenty of times (which I can find for you again if you like) where Palladium flat-out states that all their games are compatible, and/or that all their games use "one system."

Every single Conversion Book waves hello at you. (In case that was too subtle: You wouldn't need conversion rules if that were true.)


You mean the book that says stuff like (CB1r 7) "After all, Palladium uses one basic game system for virtually ALl of its game settings to create a truly infinite Megaverse of adventure"...?
(emphasis not added)

I don't find your argument as compelling as you might think.

CB1r 7 also flat-out states the reason why there's a Conversion Book:
This Conversion Book helps game masters and players adapt characters, abilities and equipment from SDC settings to the Mega-Damage of Rifts Earth.

and

These other worlds are not an official part of the Rifts game setting and are statne-alone games that use all the same basic set of RPG rules.

These are all different games within the same rule system, and the settings have differences. Some critters, powers, and tech from SDC settings need to be converted to the MDC setting of Rifts Earth, but that's not the same as saying, for example, that because the Role-Playing Game Design skill is listed in N&S, but is NOT listed in Rifts, that somehow the skill is not intended to be applicable to the Rifts Setting, nor that it would require a GM ruling to import the skill.

The Conversion Book doesn't address that kind of thing because it is true as a default that the rules are compatible.
What the Conversion Book does is to address the kinds of differences between specific game settings: what happens when you bring a magical creature from BtS into the supercharged world of Rifts, for example. Or what happens when certain super powers operate in the super-charged mega-damage setting of Rifts.
The Conversion Book lists the exceptions to the general rules, the places where a specific dimension/game/setting operates differently from another, which isn't the same as trying to convert one system to another.

They hypothermia rules for one setting apply to any other setting as a default, for instance, so the Conversion Book doesn't address that kind of thing.
IF Rifts has different hypothermia rules than PFRPG, then the local rules for that setting over-ride the rules for the different setting.
But if Rifts lists no hypothermia rules, then rules from PFRPG or any other setting can be ported over without any kind of conversion.

Look at what the Conversion Book actually converts, then look at all the things it doesn't convert.
It's pretty clear that Palladium is telling it like it is: this is all the same system.
(except Recon and such)

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:09 pm
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:23 pm
Posts: 126
Location: The Motherland
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Every single Conversion Book waves hello at you. (In case that was too subtle: You wouldn't need conversion rules if that were true.)

Yep, those conversion books! Which then go on to give all kinds of required conversions in order for things to work together.

Just because they use a similar mechanic doesn't make them anymore compatible than D&D 3e and Pathfinder are. Sure, there's strong similarities, but you're not going to seamlessly blend them together without having to convert a lot of things.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: Changing your O.C.C.
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:18 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 30983
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Crimson Dynamo wrote:
Yep, those conversion books! Which then go on to give all kinds of required conversions in order for things to work together.


Got any examples of conversions in the book that are not simply setting conversions, but actual rule conversions?

Quote:
Just because they use a similar mechanic doesn't make them anymore compatible than D&D 3e and Pathfinder are. Sure, there's strong similarities, but you're not going to seamlessly blend them together without having to convert a lot of things.


Palladium says they're the same rules.
You don't like it, take it up with Palladium.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
 
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: guardiandashi


Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group