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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:00 pm
  

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Robots or Power armor with electrical batteries, could they be reasonably recharged with a Mystic Generator? I figure it would require a medium or large generator, and take 2-4 hours per PA or 6-10 hours per robot. I would imagine that an Operator would have to build a charging/voltage interface, but really the need is enough power to charge the batteries in a decent amount of time.

Am I crazy?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:43 am
  

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mystic generators produce electricity, so it's reasonable for it to be possible. however, i'd expect that the voltage/amperage you'd need to properly power a robot would be vastly in excess of what they actually produce, so i'd expect you'd need a capaciter system that could take the charge and pump it into the robot unless you want to spend weeks charging a 24-hour battery properly.

you'd also probably need to use the larger generators, which would rapidly move them out of the range of being portable unless you mount it on something like a railway car or something like that. not that this is important.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:41 am
  

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If it's battery powered, I don't see why not, assuming it was a rechargeable battery (Not all batteries are rechargeable)

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:21 am
  

Palladin

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I would put it this way:

the "small" generator costs is roughly equivalent to the electric engine conversion for an electric engine in a fairly standard vehicle. to my mind, it would be suitable for recharging the battery of a standard vehicle slightly faster than it would drain (4 hours of charging = 4 hours of charge). I'd probably have it charge hover vehicles, standard aircraft (planes and helicopters), robot vehicles or non-flying power armour of about the same size at around 50% that rate (the engines are simply not as efficient as wheels or tracks... that is, 4 hours of charging = 2 hours of charge in the battery). I wouldn't allow it to power large power armours (say, anything over 20 feet high as a rough measurement)

the medium size generator has a lot more oomph to it, I'd allow it to charge up power armour, hover/flying vehicles, flying power armour, and lighter robot vehicles at a 1:1 ratio on time (that is, if you charge for 4 hours, the battery has a 4 hour charge). it wouldn't do smaller vehicles faster, but it could do at least 2 at a time. and I would allow it to power even large-sized robot vehicles at half rate (4 hours charge time = 2 hours charge).

the large one I'd easily allow to charge a whole bunch of regular vehicles, let's say like... I dunno... a fleet of 20 at a time? power armour, hover/flying vehicles, etc would count as 2. and the big stuff would count as 5.

(to be clear, I am interpreting "power a small town" as "that town probably doesn't have half a dozen electrical appliances in each house, but rather the town itself can have needs provided; street lamps, a few shops could have electricity-powered machines, and the houses of the wealthy have a few conveniences).

mostly because it feels a bit weird to have 4 times the input but get like 100 times the output at least....)


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:34 am
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
I would put it this way:

the "small" generator costs is roughly equivalent to the electric engine conversion for an electric engine in a fairly standard vehicle. to my mind, it would be suitable for recharging the battery of a standard vehicle slightly faster than it would drain (4 hours of charging = 4 hours of charge). I'd probably have it charge hover vehicles, standard aircraft (planes and helicopters), robot vehicles or non-flying power armour of about the same size at around 50% that rate (the engines are simply not as efficient as wheels or tracks... that is, 4 hours of charging = 2 hours of charge in the battery). I wouldn't allow it to power large power armours (say, anything over 20 feet high as a rough measurement)

the medium size generator has a lot more oomph to it, I'd allow it to charge up power armour, hover/flying vehicles, flying power armour, and lighter robot vehicles at a 1:1 ratio on time (that is, if you charge for 4 hours, the battery has a 4 hour charge). it wouldn't do smaller vehicles faster, but it could do at least 2 at a time. and I would allow it to power even large-sized robot vehicles at half rate (4 hours charge time = 2 hours charge).

the large one I'd easily allow to charge a whole bunch of regular vehicles, let's say like... I dunno... a fleet of 20 at a time? power armour, hover/flying vehicles, etc would count as 2. and the big stuff would count as 5.

(to be clear, I am interpreting "power a small town" as "that town probably doesn't have half a dozen electrical appliances in each house, but rather the town itself can have needs provided; street lamps, a few shops could have electricity-powered machines, and the houses of the wealthy have a few conveniences).

mostly because it feels a bit weird to have 4 times the input but get like 100 times the output at least....)



this sounds like pretty reasonable answer. thanks you!


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:08 am
  

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Little aside - i know there are TW generators that can convert power the from ley lines or PPE into electricity or other forms of energy, but is there any spell of machinery in the books for doing the opposite, converting hidroelectric, thermoeletric, fossil, fusion, solar or any other form of power into PPE for magical bateries or something similar?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:22 am
  

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slade2501 wrote:
Robots or Power armor with electrical batteries, could they be reasonably recharged with a Mystic Generator? I figure it would require a medium or large generator, and take 2-4 hours per PA or 6-10 hours per robot. I would imagine that an Operator would have to build a charging/voltage interface, but really the need is enough power to charge the batteries in a decent amount of time.

Yes, they could be recharged with a (Large) Mystic Generator, assuming the battery can be recharged.
The Small MG can power a good size house, the Medium an Office Building, and Large a small town.

Based on the Power Leech RCC (WB112 pg127), a car battery has 2MD worth of energy, an Eclip has 200-300MD, and the various Nuclear PA/'Bot/City plants can be absorbed at a rate of 200MD per unit of time (PA/'Bot have a capacity of 2000MD). MercOps also has a power armor level nuclear plant used to recharge Eclips (multiples and time frame IIRC).

How fast the Mystic Generator would recharge the 'bot/PA electrical batteries is another matter since Palladium isn't providing hard numbers that could allow easy solution. I don't think they hold the same as the "car battery" of the Power Leech example, so I would treat it as Eclip level (10x Eclips for a PA/Bot given the Power Leech).

SolCannibal wrote:
Little aside - i know there are TW generators that can convert power the from ley lines or PPE into electricity or other forms of energy, but is there any spell of machinery in the books for doing the opposite, converting hidroelectric, thermoeletric, fossil, fusion, solar or any other form of power into PPE for magical bateries or something similar?

Off hand no, the closest thing that comes to mind is a Psi-Tech device in WB12 the CS produces (Weapon Gauntlet) that uses conventional energy to augment psi-power creation (ie ISP, but as 2 ISP = 1 PPE it's a roundabout way of getting there).


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:10 am
  

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I always figured a TW generator large enough to run a small town would provide reliable electricity to a town of 1200 or so, with hundreds of houses and several reasonable shops, streetlamps, and everything else in a small town.The generator is infrastructure, and the "Large" TW generator will be built from an actual power plant turbine. Otherwise, the descriptives would say "enough to run a dozen sockets and the rich guy's house."

The "magic" part isn't some special enchantment to make magic electricity, BTW. It's a simple enchantment that keeps the turbine spinning. Just a tiny spell telekinetically turning the spindle as mundane electromagnetism whips out the watts.

The question shouldn't be can a TW generator do this, it's can Any generator do this.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:17 am
  

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ITWastrel wrote:
I always figured a TW generator large enough to run a small town would provide reliable electricity to a town of 1200 or so, with hundreds of houses and several reasonable shops, streetlamps, and everything else in a small town.The generator is infrastructure, and the "Large" TW generator will be built from an actual power plant turbine. Otherwise, the descriptives would say "enough to run a dozen sockets and the rich guy's house."


the average town in rifts is honestly pretty low-energy by their own description.you've got maybe a dozen or so building properly wired for power and maybe one building (probably a hospital) able to handle a fairly high power draw, but most people on its grid are not usuing AC sockets in them or only have a couple sockets and some basic lighting.

kind of ironic to think that joe average from the setting with dragons weilding magical rune swords and laser rifles stronger than a tank cannon would quite likely be awesturck by the advanced level of comfort technology provides around here. wonder how many credits you could flip a memory foam mattress for?

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:48 am
  

Palladin

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the TW mystic generator that can supposedly power a small town is waaaaaay too cheap to be able to actually do that imo. again, I could see powering something like the main street "downtown" area of a bunch of small shops and businesses with streetlights there, but the "small town" generator costs around 4 times as much as the "one house" generator, which is way too much growth from my perspective. I mean, I'm fine if it gets better, but at a certain point it just gets silly.

now, if the parts cost in the millions, fine, actually power a small town with it. but this? it's just such a ridiculous increase, you have to wonder why anyone makes anything smaller.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:07 am
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
it's just such a ridiculous increase, you have to wonder why anyone makes anything smaller.


Because the turbine is the size of a McDonalds. Seriously, the magic component is stupid cheap, the expensive bits are the huge coils of very mundane copper wire and some big-ass magnets. Those coils and magnets determine the power output, and that's simple physics and does not change with magic.

Simply put, you cannot run a town off a cub cadet 1000 Watt generator, because after it's enchanted to work off magic its output is... 1000 Watts.

A house-sized 2.4 Megawatt hydroelectric turbine enchanted to run off magic, a simple extension of the Telekinesis spell powered by a local ley line, will produce 2.4 Megawatts, because magnets.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:25 am
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
If it's battery powered, I don't see why not, assuming it was a rechargeable battery (Not all batteries are rechargeable)

Agrees with NS.

That does mean that you're recharging South American PAs.
This is because the SA PAs are the only ones that run off batteries/capasitors/aka stored power.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:43 am
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
How fast the Mystic Generator would recharge the 'bot/PA electrical batteries is another matter since Palladium isn't providing hard numbers that could allow easy solution.
Northern Gun Electric Batteries are described as being chargeable in 5 hours, or 3 hours at NG outlets. They are 14kg in size, 2 in series can power one of the larger PA suits for 144 hours of continuous use, and each cost 200 credits to recharge. This last figure suggests if nothing else that prices for e-clip charging are grossly inflated. Similar times are given for being able to recharge a battery via a vehicle's nuclear reactor, at the cost of the vehicle being denied any use of energy weapons and only capable of 10% its regular speed.

Alternatively, the solar-powered weapons sold by NG can effectively charge 1d6 MD worth of damage in 2 hours under direct sunlight with fairly minimal collection panels. I'm undecided on how one might best extrapolate from this, or if it's another example of a game-convenient abstraction better left unexamined.

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Last edited by Curbludgeon on Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:37 pm
  

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Curbludgeon wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
How fast the Mystic Generator would recharge the 'bot/PA electrical batteries is another matter since Palladium isn't providing hard numbers that could allow easy solution.
Northern Gun Electric Batteries are described as being chargeable in 5 hours, or 3 hours at NG outlets. They are 14kg in size, 2 in series can power one of the larger PA suits for 144 hours of continuous use, and each cost 200 credits to recharge. This last figure suggests if nothing else that prices for e-clip charging are grossly inflated.

Alternatively, the solar-powered weapons effectively can charge 1d6 MD worth of damage in 2 hours under direct sunlight. I'm undecided on how one might best extrapolate from this, or if it's enough example of a game-convenient abstraction better left unexamined.

Not the type of hard numbers I was implying that would be helpful in this situation. I meant some unified notion of Energy stored that is easily comparable (either MD points, or more realworld values) and transfer speed since there are bound to be various sizes of batteries, E-Clips, and chargers to consider.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:56 pm
  

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Since the matter was "(h)ow fast the Mystic Generator would recharge the 'bot/PA electrical batteries" I'd argue the figures given were useful, and any actual specifications published would, to boot, have been pulled from a hat.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:56 am
  

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While I agree the numbers would likely have been pulled from a hat, they'd be a heck of a lot clearer in this case than "city" or "office building" or "home" since those are not uniform values. The energy for any of those is going to vary based on a variety of factors like era, region, time of year, equipment, etc.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:24 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
If it's battery powered, I don't see why not, assuming it was a rechargeable battery (Not all batteries are rechargeable)

Agrees with NS.

That does mean that you're recharging South American PAs.
This is because the SA PAs are the only ones that run off batteries/capasitors/aka stored power.


Bro, CHIPWELL!

Battery powered Power armor and EBA made from SDC materials and loaded with off-the-shelf armaments on cheap swivels.

Chipwell, they shine up good for your funeral!

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:17 am
  

Palladin

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ITWastrel wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
it's just such a ridiculous increase, you have to wonder why anyone makes anything smaller.


Because the turbine is the size of a McDonalds. Seriously, the magic component is stupid cheap, the expensive bits are the huge coils of very mundane copper wire and some big-ass magnets. Those coils and magnets determine the power output, and that's simple physics and does not change with magic.

Simply put, you cannot run a town off a cub cadet 1000 Watt generator, because after it's enchanted to work off magic its output is... 1000 Watts.

A house-sized 2.4 Megawatt hydroelectric turbine enchanted to run off magic, a simple extension of the Telekinesis spell powered by a local ley line, will produce 2.4 Megawatts, because magnets.


the materials cost for the parts is 20,000 credits. incidentally, that's 4 times the cost of the smallest generator. it also requires some gems, but only 4 times as many as the smallest generator, and the gems are only a foot long each.

again, if they had a cost in the millions, I'd just shrug my shoulders and say "well, I'm not qualified to make a good estimate on the materials cost for a huge power generation facility" and accept it, but at *that* price I feel pretty comfortable that no, they are not building a mcdonald's-sized turbine.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:46 am
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
ITWastrel wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
it's just such a ridiculous increase, you have to wonder why anyone makes anything smaller.


Because the turbine is the size of a McDonalds. Seriously, the magic component is stupid cheap, the expensive bits are the huge coils of very mundane copper wire and some big-ass magnets. Those coils and magnets determine the power output, and that's simple physics and does not change with magic.

Simply put, you cannot run a town off a cub cadet 1000 Watt generator, because after it's enchanted to work off magic its output is... 1000 Watts.

A house-sized 2.4 Megawatt hydroelectric turbine enchanted to run off magic, a simple extension of the Telekinesis spell powered by a local ley line, will produce 2.4 Megawatts, because magnets.


the materials cost for the parts is 20,000 credits. incidentally, that's 4 times the cost of the smallest generator. it also requires some gems, but only 4 times as many as the smallest generator, and the gems are only a foot long each.

again, if they had a cost in the millions, I'd just shrug my shoulders and say "well, I'm not qualified to make a good estimate on the materials cost for a huge power generation facility" and accept it, but at *that* price I feel pretty comfortable that no, they are not building a mcdonald's-sized turbine.



I'd buy that cost for the enchantment alone, with the generator sold separately. Otherwise, the book is just wrong. Sometimes, that happens.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:57 am
  

Palladin

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ITWastrel wrote:
I'd buy that cost for the enchantment alone, with the generator sold separately. Otherwise, the book is just wrong. Sometimes, that happens.


the whole thing sells for 600k and uses materials costing 100k.

I suppose you could say that the 500k serves as the enchanting cost, and the whole thing takes a few weeks to make.

but frankly, I am of the opinion that these numbers are so wildly out of the range of reasonable that it only makes sense to ignore them entirely.

and, to put it bluntly... I think a smaller scale makes a lot more sense for general game use anyways. I don't think a lone techno-wizard building what should be a fairly major project such as a power plant capable of serving the needs of an entire modern town makes sense for the scope of something in the core book. I mean, I'm sure there are techno-wizards (or more likely, groups consisting of techno-wizards with a number of engineers and construction workers as assistants) who build these kind of large-scale infrastructure products in the world, but I think it's beyond the scope of what I would expect for there to be standard rules.


thus, to me, the simplest way to reconcile "could power a small town" with the price tag and the scope I would expect a typical PC to be interested in is if we're talking from the perspective of a setting where electricity isn't common in most places and as such "a small town" will mostly only have electricity for businesses that need it and perhaps a few wealthy families.

again, this is not because I think those huge TW power plants don't exist somewhere, but simply because I don't think having them as standard services offered by a lone adventuring techno-wizard makes much sense.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:55 pm
  

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well, they're not building the generator from scratch, they're converting an existing power plant to run as a TW-system. like with pretty much anything TW-built larger than handheld, they're using preexisting parts and altering the wiring/circuitry. TW guns are made out of guns, TW generators are made out of generators, TW hats are made out of hats.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:35 pm
  

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Orin J. wrote:
well, they're not building the generator from scratch, they're converting an existing power plant to run as a TW-system. like with pretty much anything TW-built larger than handheld, they're using preexisting parts and altering the wiring/circuitry. TW guns are made out of guns, TW generators are made out of generators, TW hats are made out of hats.



Exactly this. You convert a TW item, not manufacture new.

This is also the main problem of TW item sales. The costs of materials plus base item are often much greater than the possible market price of the product. Sure, the TW device may be greener, but it costs at least as much as the non-magical base, plus gemstones, copper wiring, bits, bobs, and doodads. When you add in overhead and labor there's no profit in techno-wizardry.

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