how to be a good sniper

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Knight_General
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how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Knight_General »

alright so i am making a character and i want them to be a sniper. while i have been given some advice on how to get some more bonuses to strike i wanted to know if there are any bonuses other than the sniper skill that could get me a decent strike bonus.

i am also looking for the best starting weapons for a sniper. right now i get one energy pistol, one energy rifle, and three of choice. the only modern WP i don't have is submachine guns, military flamethrowers, and harpoon & spear gun.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Dustin Fireblade »

Wilks 587 Sniper Laser Rifle
Wilks Integrated Optics Scope

Both give a +2 strike.

I've already covered the skills and what not. You are probably looking at close to a +10 bonus to strike or so using the above, WP skill, Sniper skill, Paratrooper bonus and a few more.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by HWalsh »

Knight_General wrote:alright so i am making a character and i want them to be a sniper. while i have been given some advice on how to get some more bonuses to strike i wanted to know if there are any bonuses other than the sniper skill that could get me a decent strike bonus.

i am also looking for the best starting weapons for a sniper. right now i get one energy pistol, one energy rifle, and three of choice. the only modern WP i don't have is submachine guns, military flamethrowers, and harpoon & spear gun.


This is more general advice and commentary, but:

Have you ever played Rifts before, or any RPG with snipers in it?

Snipers in RPGs aren't really a thing. You can do it, don't get me wrong, but by their very nature they have 3 side effects/downsides:

Side Effect:
Snipers are generally speaking "Lone Wolf" operators. Even more so as you're doing a robot wolf. It means splitting the party and that is always a GM headache.

Side Effect:
Snipers are either God-Tier overpowered or stupidly inefficient, this seems to be s zero sum game too. A sniper attacks from stupid distances, ambushes targets, and that's it. They either win the fight for the team solo, making other players grumpy, or they are left in a support role where they are immune to consequences.

Why are they sometimes stupidly inefficient? Because of the rules.

It is virtually impossible to get a one-shot-one-kill sniper kill in Rifts unless the GM hands it to you. You have to catch a target, exposed completely, and hit them to kill them. It doesn't matter what you shoot them with, if it is a freaking 3d6×10+20 weapon and they have even 1 point of MD protection it takes 2 shots. Why? Under the rules over damage doesn't transfer.

Downside:
A lot of games are going to take place in close quarters or as a reaction situation. Both are bad for snipers.

Conclusion:
I'd look at making a Soldier who can snipe, rather than a sniper, it's much more conducive to gameplay.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Daniel Stoker »

Well anything I was going to say has been said (and probably better then me too) by HWalsh. Good post! :ok:


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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Slight001 »

Cinematic Snipers might be lone wolves. But that is not how actual snipers operate. Most operate in pairs, a shooter and a spotter/guardian, or in small teams (4-6 people) who often include a backup sniper and operate as most would understand a special forces group operates.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by eliakon »

Having just concluded a four and a half year game in which my character was a sniper I would like to offer a few bits of advise if I may.

The first bit is that Lynette didn't spend a lot of time actually sniping. I knew that going in so I had other things that my character could do as well. But when we did get in combat situations the group liked having the ability to call in strikes on targets and watch Lynette OHK targets for them... when we were not doing things where Lynette was useful for sniping she was making cute boxed lunches for the team, trying to understand what 'morality' was, talking philosophy with the Necromancer, discussing Anime with the other two Otoku, balancing the units books and generally doing "other stuff"

The second bit is that her best weapon was an SDC rifle, a Viggo custom more or less actual. Yes an SDC rifle. She was death on two legs with that.
You see with a SDC rifle she could swap out bullets to match whatever the target was. Silver Bullets, Explosive Bullets, Ram-Jets, Bone Bullets, Charmed Bullets, D-U rounds... what ever she needed to make a particular shot count she could do it.
Also while there is "Impervious to energy" there isn't "Impervious to bullets"
I used stuff like weapon balancing, custom sights, custom grips and the rest on my rifle for more bonuses as well.

She did keep a pretty large collection of other weapons as well, so as to have the right tool for the job. If we were hunting CS troops she would break out the Plasma or P-Beams for example.

The third bit is that I ask my GM if I could use some of the gun skills in the other game books.
-Splicers has the Vital Strikes skill which lets you boost your aimed/called shots
-BTS 2 allows for buying the Sharpshooter trick shots separately
-Dinosaur Swamp has the Stalking Skill which adds to strike
-And of course Heroes of Humanity has that tasty Sniper package


Lastly I found that my sniper was fairly social (for a soulless killer doll). She needed the group to provide support, to help her designate targets, keep foes off her back and do all the other stuff (like the mage in the group who was happy to cast buff spells on her to boost her sniping and damage to even more ungodly levels).


The end result was that I had an absurdly overly competent sniper who, by the end of the game was routinely making kill shots from a mile+ away...
...but that was not taking any limelight from anyone else and was no more solo (or seen as any more detrimental) than the mecha pilots or PA pilots.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

eliakon wrote:Having just concluded a four and a half year game in which my character was a sniper I would like to offer a few bits of advise if I may.

The first bit is that Lynette didn't spend a lot of time actually sniping. I knew that going in so I had other things that my character could do as well. But when we did get in combat situations the group liked having the ability to call in strikes on targets and watch Lynette OHK targets for them... when we were not doing things where Lynette was useful for sniping she was making cute boxed lunches for the team, trying to understand what 'morality' was, talking philosophy with the Necromancer, discussing Anime with the other two Otoku, balancing the units books and generally doing "other stuff"

The second bit is that her best weapon was an SDC rifle, a Viggo custom more or less actual. Yes an SDC rifle. She was death on two legs with that.
You see with a SDC rifle she could swap out bullets to match whatever the target was. Silver Bullets, Explosive Bullets, Ram-Jets, Bone Bullets, Charmed Bullets, D-U rounds... what ever she needed to make a particular shot count she could do it.
Also while there is "Impervious to energy" there isn't "Impervious to bullets"
I used stuff like weapon balancing, custom sights, custom grips and the rest on my rifle for more bonuses as well.

She did keep a pretty large collection of other weapons as well, so as to have the right tool for the job. If we were hunting CS troops she would break out the Plasma or P-Beams for example.

The third bit is that I ask my GM if I could use some of the gun skills in the other game books.
-Splicers has the Vital Strikes skill which lets you boost your aimed/called shots
-BTS 2 allows for buying the Sharpshooter trick shots separately
-Dinosaur Swamp has the Stalking Skill which adds to strike
-And of course Heroes of Humanity has that tasty Sniper package


Lastly I found that my sniper was fairly social (for a soulless killer doll). She needed the group to provide support, to help her designate targets, keep foes off her back and do all the other stuff (like the mage in the group who was happy to cast buff spells on her to boost her sniping and damage to even more ungodly levels).


The end result was that I had an absurdly overly competent sniper who, by the end of the game was routinely making kill shots from a mile+ away...
...but that was not taking any limelight from anyone else and was no more solo (or seen as any more detrimental) than the mecha pilots or PA pilots.


This

The other guys are talking about a lone gunman or the old WW snipers like Simo Häyhä or Lyudmila Mikhailovna Pavlichenko but most modern snipers have a spotter or are a part of strike team or overwatch like Chris Kyle all very team oriented.

@Eli that the game you were talking about on the other site?
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by eliakon »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Spoiler:
Having just concluded a four and a half year game in which my character was a sniper I would like to offer a few bits of advise if I may.

The first bit is that Lynette didn't spend a lot of time actually sniping. I knew that going in so I had other things that my character could do as well. But when we did get in combat situations the group liked having the ability to call in strikes on targets and watch Lynette OHK targets for them... when we were not doing things where Lynette was useful for sniping she was making cute boxed lunches for the team, trying to understand what 'morality' was, talking philosophy with the Necromancer, discussing Anime with the other two Otoku, balancing the units books and generally doing "other stuff"

The second bit is that her best weapon was an SDC rifle, a Viggo custom more or less actual. Yes an SDC rifle. She was death on two legs with that.
You see with a SDC rifle she could swap out bullets to match whatever the target was. Silver Bullets, Explosive Bullets, Ram-Jets, Bone Bullets, Charmed Bullets, D-U rounds... what ever she needed to make a particular shot count she could do it.
Also while there is "Impervious to energy" there isn't "Impervious to bullets"
I used stuff like weapon balancing, custom sights, custom grips and the rest on my rifle for more bonuses as well.

She did keep a pretty large collection of other weapons as well, so as to have the right tool for the job. If we were hunting CS troops she would break out the Plasma or P-Beams for example.

The third bit is that I ask my GM if I could use some of the gun skills in the other game books.
-Splicers has the Vital Strikes skill which lets you boost your aimed/called shots
-BTS 2 allows for buying the Sharpshooter trick shots separately
-Dinosaur Swamp has the Stalking Skill which adds to strike
-And of course Heroes of Humanity has that tasty Sniper package


Lastly I found that my sniper was fairly social (for a soulless killer doll). She needed the group to provide support, to help her designate targets, keep foes off her back and do all the other stuff (like the mage in the group who was happy to cast buff spells on her to boost her sniping and damage to even more ungodly levels).


The end result was that I had an absurdly overly competent sniper who, by the end of the game was routinely making kill shots from a mile+ away...
...but that was not taking any limelight from anyone else and was no more solo (or seen as any more detrimental) than the mecha pilots or PA pilots.


This

The other guys are talking about a lone gunman or the old WW snipers like Simo Häyhä or Lyudmila Mikhailovna Pavlichenko but most modern snipers have a spotter or are a part of strike team or overwatch like Chris Kyle all very team oriented.

@Eli that the game you were talking about on the other site?

Kermit's Saturday Night Rifts Game.
I played Lynette, the Cybernetic Killer Doll/Sniper/General Murder Hobo (because every group needs one of those right?)
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Father Goose »

HWalsh and Eliakon present opposing views on sniper characters, but both agree on one important element: you need your character to be capable of doing more than just sniping. If all you are is a sniper, you'll be bored and a resource drain on the group anytime there is plot not related to long range murder.
So whatever you decide to do, be sure you're not creating a one trick pony.
taalismn wrote:Hey, you came up with a novel, attention-getting idea, you did the legwork, you worked it through, you made it fit the setting, even though initial thought might be 'nah, it can't work, it's too silly/stupid/lame', and you posted something that only required a little adjustment, yet can be added to, without diluting its original concept. How can we not give you due support and credit?
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Incriptus »

When I last found myself making a "Sniper" I stopped myself, I took a step back and decided I was going to be a "Sharpshooter". Sure i'm just arguing semantics and he used the exact same stats ... it just helped broaden my mission paramiters Sniping someone from far away just became one of my stunts.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Father Goose »

Incriptus wrote:When I last found myself making a "Sniper" I stopped myself, I took a step back and decided I was going to be a "Sharpshooter". Sure i'm just arguing semantics and he used the exact same stats ... it just helped broaden my mission paramiters Sniping someone from far away just became one of my stunts.

That's a great point. Sometimes just changing your use of language will alter how you see your character and his or her role.
taalismn wrote:Hey, you came up with a novel, attention-getting idea, you did the legwork, you worked it through, you made it fit the setting, even though initial thought might be 'nah, it can't work, it's too silly/stupid/lame', and you posted something that only required a little adjustment, yet can be added to, without diluting its original concept. How can we not give you due support and credit?
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by kaid »

HWalsh wrote:
Knight_General wrote:alright so i am making a character and i want them to be a sniper. while i have been given some advice on how to get some more bonuses to strike i wanted to know if there are any bonuses other than the sniper skill that could get me a decent strike bonus.

i am also looking for the best starting weapons for a sniper. right now i get one energy pistol, one energy rifle, and three of choice. the only modern WP i don't have is submachine guns, military flamethrowers, and harpoon & spear gun.


This is more general advice and commentary, but:

Have you ever played Rifts before, or any RPG with snipers in it?

Snipers in RPGs aren't really a thing. You can do it, don't get me wrong, but by their very nature they have 3 side effects/downsides:

Side Effect:
Snipers are generally speaking "Lone Wolf" operators. Even more so as you're doing a robot wolf. It means splitting the party and that is always a GM headache.

Side Effect:
Snipers are either God-Tier overpowered or stupidly inefficient, this seems to be s zero sum game too. A sniper attacks from stupid distances, ambushes targets, and that's it. They either win the fight for the team solo, making other players grumpy, or they are left in a support role where they are immune to consequences.

Why are they sometimes stupidly inefficient? Because of the rules.

It is virtually impossible to get a one-shot-one-kill sniper kill in Rifts unless the GM hands it to you. You have to catch a target, exposed completely, and hit them to kill them. It doesn't matter what you shoot them with, if it is a freaking 3d6×10+20 weapon and they have even 1 point of MD protection it takes 2 shots. Why? Under the rules over damage doesn't transfer.

Downside:
A lot of games are going to take place in close quarters or as a reaction situation. Both are bad for snipers.

Conclusion:
I'd look at making a Soldier who can snipe, rather than a sniper, it's much more conducive to gameplay.


Rifts is an odd ball for sniping. Armor is really strong so unless you are spending a lot of time stalking you don't get many instant kills on unarmored bits. That said sniping can still be really useful but not really in the traditional concept of it. A sniper in rifts is a weak point striker generally they are most useful to help disable big threats like robots/power armor by shooting out ammo feeds/power cables/sensors or crippling arms/legs. Also they are good vs certain supernatural things where you need to hit some specific vulnerability to incapacitate/kill the target.

If you are looking for sniper as a lone wolf assassin that is really hard to work in a normal group environment and also due to how damn strong body armor is in rifts difficult to impossible to actually get a one shot kill.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

eliakon wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Spoiler:
Having just concluded a four and a half year game in which my character was a sniper I would like to offer a few bits of advise if I may.

The first bit is that Lynette didn't spend a lot of time actually sniping. I knew that going in so I had other things that my character could do as well. But when we did get in combat situations the group liked having the ability to call in strikes on targets and watch Lynette OHK targets for them... when we were not doing things where Lynette was useful for sniping she was making cute boxed lunches for the team, trying to understand what 'morality' was, talking philosophy with the Necromancer, discussing Anime with the other two Otoku, balancing the units books and generally doing "other stuff"

The second bit is that her best weapon was an SDC rifle, a Viggo custom more or less actual. Yes an SDC rifle. She was death on two legs with that.
You see with a SDC rifle she could swap out bullets to match whatever the target was. Silver Bullets, Explosive Bullets, Ram-Jets, Bone Bullets, Charmed Bullets, D-U rounds... what ever she needed to make a particular shot count she could do it.
Also while there is "Impervious to energy" there isn't "Impervious to bullets"
I used stuff like weapon balancing, custom sights, custom grips and the rest on my rifle for more bonuses as well.

She did keep a pretty large collection of other weapons as well, so as to have the right tool for the job. If we were hunting CS troops she would break out the Plasma or P-Beams for example.

The third bit is that I ask my GM if I could use some of the gun skills in the other game books.
-Splicers has the Vital Strikes skill which lets you boost your aimed/called shots
-BTS 2 allows for buying the Sharpshooter trick shots separately
-Dinosaur Swamp has the Stalking Skill which adds to strike
-And of course Heroes of Humanity has that tasty Sniper package


Lastly I found that my sniper was fairly social (for a soulless killer doll). She needed the group to provide support, to help her designate targets, keep foes off her back and do all the other stuff (like the mage in the group who was happy to cast buff spells on her to boost her sniping and damage to even more ungodly levels).


The end result was that I had an absurdly overly competent sniper who, by the end of the game was routinely making kill shots from a mile+ away...
...but that was not taking any limelight from anyone else and was no more solo (or seen as any more detrimental) than the mecha pilots or PA pilots.


This

The other guys are talking about a lone gunman or the old WW snipers like Simo Häyhä or Lyudmila Mikhailovna Pavlichenko but most modern snipers have a spotter or are a part of strike team or overwatch like Chris Kyle all very team oriented.

@Eli that the game you were talking about on the other site?

Kermit's Saturday Night Rifts Game.
I played Lynette, the Cybernetic Killer Doll/Sniper/General Murder Hobo (because every group needs one of those right?)


I have one extremely important question...




Did she wear pigtails?
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper
BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Father Goose wrote:HWalsh and Eliakon present opposing views on sniper characters, but both agree on one important element: you need your character to be capable of doing more than just sniping. If all you are is a sniper, you'll be bored and a resource drain on the group anytime there is plot not related to long range murder.
So whatever you decide to do, be sure you're not creating a one trick pony.


What about a pony who can shoot AND count?
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Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Knight_General »

well that sucks but i can now understand the point. truth is i was trying to play something out of my comfort zone as most of my characters from all the games i have played were in your face melee combatants except for two one an archer the other a rogue with a rifle.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by eliakon »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Spoiler:
Having just concluded a four and a half year game in which my character was a sniper I would like to offer a few bits of advise if I may.

The first bit is that Lynette didn't spend a lot of time actually sniping. I knew that going in so I had other things that my character could do as well. But when we did get in combat situations the group liked having the ability to call in strikes on targets and watch Lynette OHK targets for them... when we were not doing things where Lynette was useful for sniping she was making cute boxed lunches for the team, trying to understand what 'morality' was, talking philosophy with the Necromancer, discussing Anime with the other two Otoku, balancing the units books and generally doing "other stuff"

The second bit is that her best weapon was an SDC rifle, a Viggo custom more or less actual. Yes an SDC rifle. She was death on two legs with that.
You see with a SDC rifle she could swap out bullets to match whatever the target was. Silver Bullets, Explosive Bullets, Ram-Jets, Bone Bullets, Charmed Bullets, D-U rounds... what ever she needed to make a particular shot count she could do it.
Also while there is "Impervious to energy" there isn't "Impervious to bullets"
I used stuff like weapon balancing, custom sights, custom grips and the rest on my rifle for more bonuses as well.

She did keep a pretty large collection of other weapons as well, so as to have the right tool for the job. If we were hunting CS troops she would break out the Plasma or P-Beams for example.

The third bit is that I ask my GM if I could use some of the gun skills in the other game books.
-Splicers has the Vital Strikes skill which lets you boost your aimed/called shots
-BTS 2 allows for buying the Sharpshooter trick shots separately
-Dinosaur Swamp has the Stalking Skill which adds to strike
-And of course Heroes of Humanity has that tasty Sniper package


Lastly I found that my sniper was fairly social (for a soulless killer doll). She needed the group to provide support, to help her designate targets, keep foes off her back and do all the other stuff (like the mage in the group who was happy to cast buff spells on her to boost her sniping and damage to even more ungodly levels).


The end result was that I had an absurdly overly competent sniper who, by the end of the game was routinely making kill shots from a mile+ away...
...but that was not taking any limelight from anyone else and was no more solo (or seen as any more detrimental) than the mecha pilots or PA pilots.


This

The other guys are talking about a lone gunman or the old WW snipers like Simo Häyhä or Lyudmila Mikhailovna Pavlichenko but most modern snipers have a spotter or are a part of strike team or overwatch like Chris Kyle all very team oriented.

@Eli that the game you were talking about on the other site?

Kermit's Saturday Night Rifts Game.
I played Lynette, the Cybernetic Killer Doll/Sniper/General Murder Hobo (because every group needs one of those right?)


I have one extremely important question...




Did she wear pigtails?

Only if she was in disguise...
...or if Robin had gotten at her hair recently. :lol:

She was more of a "braid ribbons in her hair" kind of girl.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

kaid wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Knight_General wrote:alright so i am making a character and i want them to be a sniper. while i have been given some advice on how to get some more bonuses to strike i wanted to know if there are any bonuses other than the sniper skill that could get me a decent strike bonus.

i am also looking for the best starting weapons for a sniper. right now i get one energy pistol, one energy rifle, and three of choice. the only modern WP i don't have is submachine guns, military flamethrowers, and harpoon & spear gun.


This is more general advice and commentary, but:

Have you ever played Rifts before, or any RPG with snipers in it?

Snipers in RPGs aren't really a thing. You can do it, don't get me wrong, but by their very nature they have 3 side effects/downsides:

Side Effect:
Snipers are generally speaking "Lone Wolf" operators. Even more so as you're doing a robot wolf. It means splitting the party and that is always a GM headache.

Side Effect:
Snipers are either God-Tier overpowered or stupidly inefficient, this seems to be s zero sum game too. A sniper attacks from stupid distances, ambushes targets, and that's it. They either win the fight for the team solo, making other players grumpy, or they are left in a support role where they are immune to consequences.

Why are they sometimes stupidly inefficient? Because of the rules.

It is virtually impossible to get a one-shot-one-kill sniper kill in Rifts unless the GM hands it to you. You have to catch a target, exposed completely, and hit them to kill them. It doesn't matter what you shoot them with, if it is a freaking 3d6×10+20 weapon and they have even 1 point of MD protection it takes 2 shots. Why? Under the rules over damage doesn't transfer.

Downside:
A lot of games are going to take place in close quarters or as a reaction situation. Both are bad for snipers.

Conclusion:
I'd look at making a Soldier who can snipe, rather than a sniper, it's much more conducive to gameplay.


Rifts is an odd ball for sniping. Armor is really strong so unless you are spending a lot of time stalking you don't get many instant kills on unarmored bits. That said sniping can still be really useful but not really in the traditional concept of it. A sniper in rifts is a weak point striker generally they are most useful to help disable big threats like robots/power armor by shooting out ammo feeds/power cables/sensors or crippling arms/legs. Also they are good vs certain supernatural things where you need to hit some specific vulnerability to incapacitate/kill the target.

If you are looking for sniper as a lone wolf assassin that is really hard to work in a normal group environment and also due to how damn strong body armor is in rifts difficult to impossible to actually get a one shot kill.


Good points, particularly about being great at disabling very strong PA or Robots by blasting away ammo feeds, sensors, etc.

One thing i will mention is that the “G.I. Joe” rule (the rule where body armor always absorbs the last shot, even if it only had 1MD left) is -frequently- ignored as it applies to NPCs. I dont know a single GM who has ever had it apply to “mook” level NPCs. It was primarily added as a way to cut down on lethality TO players.

So, ask your GM about how he implements that rule, or if he does at all (i know a lot of GMs who dont ude it, even for players). If he doesnt apply it to most NPCs (or to NPCs at all), sniping can become a lot more viable.

Another way to excell as a sniper type character is to bat cleanup for the rest of the team. If the GI Joe rule isnt being applied to mooks/other NPCs, you can target guys that others have weakened, but would still have to shoot more than once to finish off, and take them out.

Also, once you get access to some of the really heavy-hitting weapons (like the Naruni NE-75H “Shoulder Cannon”, which does a whopping 2d4x10+20 damager per shot), it becomes easier to secure one-shot mop-up kills, or on guys in just “average” body armor, a one-shot kill with a good roll. Do keep in mind that the CS will kill you on sight if youre armed with Naruni tech.

Also, there are plenty of MDC enemies that have weak spots. Dog Boys are a frequent antagonist, and most of the time, dont wear environmental armor (the units sent to the Tolkeen front line were a notable exception), and even when issued environmental armor, half the time dont have their helmets on until combat breaks out, so you might get a few of them with headshots before they button up.

Bandits dont always wear environmental armor (half the time its piecemeal armor, natural armor, or just a non-environmental suit (NG makes a bunch that arent fully buttoned up).

Mages also dont tend to wear full armor (for practical spellcasting reasons), so if you can catch them before they put up their magical protections, bam, theyre dead. Even WITH magical protections they tend to be pretty fragile until hiher level.. even a fifth level caster only gets 50MDC from his Armor of Ithan. Lower level guys get even less.

MDC creatures can also be hihly vulnerable to sniping - that giant T-rex is a lot less dangerous after you blast out his eyes, for instance.

Its not impossible, but it does require working with your party to establish what your role is in different types of encounters, and settling for not always being the “star”.

Really, the biggest impediment to sniping was the Aimed Shot rule change in RUE; you have to spend two attacks to get 80% of your bonuses, effectively cutting your actions per round in half. Now, if you spend them well, you can still be quite effective (shooting off the ammo feed on a Glitter Boy’s Boom Gun could save the entire party, for instance), but if your goal is be putting out the most damage/round... sniping aint it.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Addition: another category of common antagonist that often doesn’t wear full-environmental armor is Juicers. You could save your party a lot of headaches by one-hit blasting a troublesome juicer. (As long as they aren’t a Mega Juicer or Dragon Blood Drinker, but hey, those are a lot more rare and easier to spot).
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by eliakon »

Or of course you can have your sniper think outside of the box.
-Use some of the 'less than lethal' weapons... as some of them provide absurd knock outs and debuffs.
-Chemical rounds can be your friend. And as there is already a chem-shotgun shell you can just get your operator/armorer to swap out the teargas with other stuff, aerosolized Faire Food Cordial as "instant pacifism" always amused me, but nerve gas, sleeping gas/KO poison, Nausea gasses, and the like are great fun. Especially if your foe isn't in EBA
-There are a few (admittedly exotic) weapons that can simply ignore armor. Combined with sniping these can be absurdly deadly. Beware of the GM employing the Gander Rule though if over used
-While you can't shoot out a CS soldiers EBA in one hit... you can destroy their gun in one hit. And if you wipe out their heavy weapon and their back up is a 2d6 pistol... threat is basically neutralized.
-You can annoy opposing forces by turning all their shots into wild shots! (if they are "under gunfire" they become wild shots...)
-You can keep mages from casting by keeping a steady stream of disruption shots on them

Basically Snipers don't have to be all about one hit killing everything with "Boom, head shot". Take their strength (high strike roll) and leverage it to make the most out of that in ways that support your groups mission.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Knight_General »

well at this point the sniper is not happening as the concept was shot down so this can be closed
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Mlp7029 »

NE-75H Shoulder Cannon see Rifts® Phase World® Sourcebook pg. 54 for details. 2D4x10+20 M.D.

That is enough to take out most regular body armor helmets.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

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One thing that bugs me about RPG snipers is that the focus is entirely upon marksmanship. While that is important, that's maybe 25% of what makes a good sniper.

Stealth is critical for a sniper. Without staying hidden for long periods of time, what you have is effectively a designated marksman, not a sniper. Skills like Prowl and Camouflage are critical for snipers, and their equipment should emphasize this at least as much as it emphasizes marksmanship. It's not just about fancy footwork and ghillie suits, either. Your smell matters. The noise you and your equipment make can get you killed. You have to be able to work with and consider your environment. The best sniper in WW2 used to eat snow while he waited to take a shot in order to prevent his breath from steaming.

Planning a shot is also critical for a sniper. Selecting a position, working out how to get there and get away, and having a plan to misdirect enemies is all crucial for a sniper who wants to stay alive. Snipers are extremely vulnerable due to their narrow range of vision as they wait to take their shot, and it's important to have a plan for detecting and reacting to unexpected company.

That phrase, "wait to take their shot," is basically 99.999% of the job. Being a sniper is mind-numbingly boring. Snipers often wait hours, even days, just to take a single shot. This is also why RPG snipers usually aren't really snipers. The game mechanics aren't built well for that, and gaming groups aren't going to be patient enough to implement realistic sniping scenarios.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Father Goose »

Hotrod wrote:One thing that bugs me about RPG snipers is that the focus is entirely upon marksmanship. While that is important, that's maybe 25% of what makes a good sniper.

Stealth is critical for a sniper. Without staying hidden for long periods of time, what you have is effectively a designated marksman, not a sniper. Skills like Prowl and Camouflage are critical for snipers, and their equipment should emphasize this at least as much as it emphasizes marksmanship. It's not just about fancy footwork and ghillie suits, either. Your smell matters. The noise you and your equipment make can get you killed. You have to be able to work with and consider your environment. The best sniper in WW2 used to eat snow while he waited to take a shot in order to prevent his breath from steaming.

Planning a shot is also critical for a sniper. Selecting a position, working out how to get there and get away, and having a plan to misdirect enemies is all crucial for a sniper who wants to stay alive. Snipers are extremely vulnerable due to their narrow range of vision as they wait to take their shot, and it's important to have a plan for detecting and reacting to unexpected company.

That phrase, "wait to take their shot," is basically 99.999% of the job. Being a sniper is mind-numbingly boring. Snipers often wait hours, even days, just to take a single shot. This is also why RPG snipers usually aren't really snipers. The game mechanics aren't built well for that, and gaming groups aren't going to be patient enough to implement realistic sniping scenarios.

I think the next OCC I write will be a Sniper. There seems to be real interest in the role, and you make some excellent points about overlooked elements. I think there is enough to warrant a new OCC.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by jaymz »

Father Goose wrote:
Hotrod wrote:One thing that bugs me about RPG snipers is that the focus is entirely upon marksmanship. While that is important, that's maybe 25% of what makes a good sniper.

Stealth is critical for a sniper. Without staying hidden for long periods of time, what you have is effectively a designated marksman, not a sniper. Skills like Prowl and Camouflage are critical for snipers, and their equipment should emphasize this at least as much as it emphasizes marksmanship. It's not just about fancy footwork and ghillie suits, either. Your smell matters. The noise you and your equipment make can get you killed. You have to be able to work with and consider your environment. The best sniper in WW2 used to eat snow while he waited to take a shot in order to prevent his breath from steaming.

Planning a shot is also critical for a sniper. Selecting a position, working out how to get there and get away, and having a plan to misdirect enemies is all crucial for a sniper who wants to stay alive. Snipers are extremely vulnerable due to their narrow range of vision as they wait to take their shot, and it's important to have a plan for detecting and reacting to unexpected company.

That phrase, "wait to take their shot," is basically 99.999% of the job. Being a sniper is mind-numbingly boring. Snipers often wait hours, even days, just to take a single shot. This is also why RPG snipers usually aren't really snipers. The game mechanics aren't built well for that, and gaming groups aren't going to be patient enough to implement realistic sniping scenarios.

I think the next OCC I write will be a Sniper. There seems to be real interest in the role, and you make some excellent points about overlooked elements. I think there is enough to warrant a new OCC.


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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Shark_Force »

i'm not certain why the G I Joe rule would prevent a sniper from being effective.

i dunno about anyone else, but if i'm up against enemies armed with weapons that do enough damage to destroy modern tanks, the moment my body armour (powered by concentrated SCIENCE!!! in its purest form that somehow prevents me from being liquefied inside of said armour) is useless, i'm going to avoid fighting if at all possible.

now, not everyone will be sane enough to stop fighting at that point. but most will.

and of course, as noted you can disable other things with called shots.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

I agree with Hotrod on the "snipers in RPGs are really just Designated Marksmen" point.

Because real sniping, as pointed out, sometimes involves days off work for one shot. IIRC, Carlos Hathcock (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock) once crawled for over 2 days though a field with patrols sometimes almost standing on him, to take a single shot at a VA general

And then two more days crawling back out while the place swarmed with VA looking for him.

That's not really "group RPG storytelling friendly"
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Father Goose »

jaymz wrote:https://worldofjaymz.fandom.com/wiki/Sniper

Sure, beat me to it. See if I care. ;)
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by dreicunan »

I was running a game for a different system once where a player really wanted their character to be a sniper in the full sense, and it ended up with a lot of that player and I doing one-on-one sessions when he was off on a mission. Sometimes it dovetailed back into the rest of the parties timeline nicely, others it didn't even make sense for him to show up at the session from a playing point of view (eating pizza and hanging out, sure). It didn't bug us, but we even joked about how most of the other guys who GMd in our group wouldn't have put up with it.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by eliakon »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:I agree with Hotrod on the "snipers in RPGs are really just Designated Marksmen" point.

Because real sniping, as pointed out, sometimes involves days off work for one shot. IIRC, Carlos Hathcock (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock) once crawled for over 2 days though a field with patrols sometimes almost standing on him, to take a single shot at a VA general

And then two more days crawling back out while the place swarmed with VA looking for him.

That's not really "group RPG storytelling friendly"

Again that is if you want to use one specific kind of sniper that fill one specific kind of sniping role
There are far more than just that one kind of sniper.

The FBI sniper is still a sniper.
The sniper who is providing counter-sniper fire in a fire-fight is a sniper
The sniper who is providing precision elimination of specific targets on call in an urban combat situation is a sniper.

There are all sorts of ways to play a sniper in a group friendly way. You don't *have* to play the lone individual out doing your own thing with no one else any more than that is what is required to play a spy (who operate solo) or a Ninja (who operate solo or in tiny teams, often under cover doing boring infiltration work), or a Knight (again often one knight and a bunch of peasants), or a Mage (most fiction has the 'lone mage' as the archetype), or the Noble, or the Samurai, or the thief (really how many thieves advertise and then run around in groups!), or rangers and scouts (who often are not actually in the wilderness) or really anything else.


You only have to be a lone wolf sniper if you want to and you only have to push the lone wolf sniper if you want to try and discredit the idea of snipers.

The "Dedicated Marksmen" in RPGs are those people that simply up their strike rolls a bit.
The guy with the Sniper Skill and nothing else related to the job? That's not a sniper. So yeah, those people are just DMs. The guy with Sniper, Stalking, Vital Strikes, Sharp Shooter, Trick Shooting, Prowl, four extra levels in their WP, Camouflage....
THATS a sniper.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by dragonfett »

I don't recall which Rifter it was in, but there is an article concerning CS Snipers (TAG: Target Acquisition Group) which contained special sniper skills as well. Being a Rifter Article means it's entirely optional (really, all of the rules are) with a 99% it's not official (I say that as the Rifters do have the occasional article with official content).

The GMG details bonuses you can get by having your weapon customized, add a laser scope for +3 on a Wilk's 447 Pulse Rifle at either level 1 or 2, and you're looking at a +8 to strike on an aimed shot (it takes two actions to set up), and your target number is 8.

You start taking penalties if your target is moving or if you are moving, and if you are doing a called aimed shot to a small item (like the head or smaller), you take a penalty as well. This is why stealth is so important for a sniper.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

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dragonfett wrote:You start taking penalties if your target is moving or if you are moving, and if you are doing a called aimed shot to a small item (like the head or smaller), you take a penalty as well. This is why stealth is so important for a sniper.


That's one small piece of why stealth is so important for a sniper. Snipers don't put huge amounts of effort into staying concealed to make their shooting easier. They do so first to stay alive and second to maximize disruption to the enemy. If the enemy doesn't know where you are, their return fire will amount to spraying and praying (read: totally ineffective), and they will either be trying to hunker down and protect themselves against an unknown threat from an unknown location, which will effectively paralyze them as an organization, or they will be trying to hunt down the sniper across a large area, which will be ineffective and give the sniper maximum opportunity to escape.

To be fair, stealth as an aid for lining up easy shots is important to snipers in one particular context. Law enforcement/hostage situation response snipers in particular aren't worried about an enemy's response, because the presumption is that the police control the area; instead, they want to be able to take a target out quickly if ordered to do so (or if the situation calls for it). Even then, though, stealth is secondary to having an unobstructed view of what's going on.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Dustin Fireblade »

dragonfett wrote:I don't recall which Rifter it was in, but there is an article concerning CS Snipers (TAG: Target Acquisition Group) which contained special sniper skills as well. Being a Rifter Article means it's entirely optional (really, all of the rules are) with a 99% it's not official (I say that as the Rifters do have the occasional article with official content).

The GMG details bonuses you can get by having your weapon customized, add a laser scope for +3 on a Wilk's 447 Pulse Rifle at either level 1 or 2, and you're looking at a +8 to strike on an aimed shot (it takes two actions to set up), and your target number is 8.

You start taking penalties if your target is moving or if you are moving, and if you are doing a called aimed shot to a small item (like the head or smaller), you take a penalty as well. This is why stealth is so important for a sniper.


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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by dragonfett »

Hotrod wrote:
dragonfett wrote:You start taking penalties if your target is moving or if you are moving, and if you are doing a called aimed shot to a small item (like the head or smaller), you take a penalty as well. This is why stealth is so important for a sniper.


That's one small piece of why stealth is so important for a sniper. Snipers don't put huge amounts of effort into staying concealed to make their shooting easier. They do so first to stay alive and second to maximize disruption to the enemy. If the enemy doesn't know where you are, their return fire will amount to spraying and praying (read: totally ineffective), and they will either be trying to hunker down and protect themselves against an unknown threat from an unknown location, which will effectively paralyze them as an organization, or they will be trying to hunt down the sniper across a large area, which will be ineffective and give the sniper maximum opportunity to escape.

To be fair, stealth as an aid for lining up easy shots is important to snipers in one particular context. Law enforcement/hostage situation response snipers in particular aren't worried about an enemy's response, because the presumption is that the police control the area; instead, they want to be able to take a target out quickly if ordered to do so (or if the situation calls for it). Even then, though, stealth is secondary to having an unobstructed view of what's going on.


I wasn't thinking clearly when I wrote that and didn't intend for it to seem that one aspect above all others was why stealth is so important a skill to snipers when infiltration/exfiltration are far more important, one could say. The ability to sneak into an area where the target (presumably a high value target) will be known to be, hopefully at their least prepared, is critical as a sniper as we think of them in a military.

Something I wanted to touch on earlier, however, is that it seems to me that Palladium pretty much treats snipers more like S.W.A.T. team snipers where all they need is the ability to shoot very well.

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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by eliakon »

dragonfett wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
dragonfett wrote:You start taking penalties if your target is moving or if you are moving, and if you are doing a called aimed shot to a small item (like the head or smaller), you take a penalty as well. This is why stealth is so important for a sniper.


That's one small piece of why stealth is so important for a sniper. Snipers don't put huge amounts of effort into staying concealed to make their shooting easier. They do so first to stay alive and second to maximize disruption to the enemy. If the enemy doesn't know where you are, their return fire will amount to spraying and praying (read: totally ineffective), and they will either be trying to hunker down and protect themselves against an unknown threat from an unknown location, which will effectively paralyze them as an organization, or they will be trying to hunt down the sniper across a large area, which will be ineffective and give the sniper maximum opportunity to escape.

To be fair, stealth as an aid for lining up easy shots is important to snipers in one particular context. Law enforcement/hostage situation response snipers in particular aren't worried about an enemy's response, because the presumption is that the police control the area; instead, they want to be able to take a target out quickly if ordered to do so (or if the situation calls for it). Even then, though, stealth is secondary to having an unobstructed view of what's going on.


I wasn't thinking clearly when I wrote that and didn't intend for it to seem that one aspect above all others was why stealth is so important a skill to snipers when infiltration/exfiltration are far more important, one could say. The ability to sneak into an area where the target (presumably a high value target) will be known to be, hopefully at their least prepared, is critical as a sniper as we think of them in a military.

Something I wanted to touch on earlier, however, is that it seems to me that Palladium pretty much treats snipers more like S.W.A.T. team snipers where all they need is the ability to shoot very well.

And thank you Dustin!

I would say that it isn't so much Palladium treating snipers that way.
It is fans doing that.
Palladium just offers a skill called "sniper" that offers a bonus to hit.
That is no more pigeonholing the entire breed than the Fencing skill encompasses all swords fighters or Boxing all hand to hand fighters or really how any other single skill in isolation is some how emblematic of entire OCCs

What happens though is people try to just take that skill and then say "Look I have the sniper skill, that must mean I'm a sniper" and then get frustrated that they can't play a good sniper with just that and then they blame the system and/or claim that it is not possible to play snipers in RPGs.
If you only took one 1st level spell you wouldn't make a very good mage.
So why do people try to assume that one skill will turn them into a sniper?
It just doesn't make sense.

I have played snipers, real snipers not just "something else with sniper tacked on", but honest to goodness ground up snipers, effectively, in Palladium several times and I have seen other people do so as well including in games that I have run.
They were effective members of their groups, team players and fit in nicely.
No one complained that they were hogging the action, or lone wolfing it, or that they were off solo, and I certainly never had any trouble at all in making them useful in the group nor in having them perform their job effectively no matter which side of the screen I was on.
That tells me that since I have done it, repeatedly that it can be done... since you know... it has been.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

I'd like to think that if this thread were titled after what the OP asked for then it might have proven a useful compilation for people to find in the future.

It's worth noting that the Vital Points skill, found in Splicers, is available alongside a weaker version of the Sniper skill than that found in other books. It's probably better for a character focusing on strike bonus to use those two skills together, since there's dumpster diving, and there's dumpster diving. Also note that while one of the potential bonuses for a Vital Points attack is a bonus to a called shot, the extra attack required for making a called shot is not subsumed in the cost of a Vital Points attack. An aimed, called, vital points attack would therefore take up 4 actions.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Knight_General wrote:alright so i am making a character and i want them to be a sniper. while i have been given some advice on how to get some more bonuses to strike i wanted to know if there are any bonuses other than the sniper skill that could get me a decent strike bonus.


The best sniper ability in Palladium is in Ninjas & Superspies. It's a Martial Arts power called (IIRC) "One Shot, One Hit, One Life, One Kill."
Every attack or turn (I forget) you spend aiming, you get +1 to strike.
If you beat 20 with a modified roll, you get a crit.

N&S is also good for the stealth part of sniping (which, as Hotrod pointed out, is arguably the main part).
The Arts of Invisibility include some very good skills, such as Art of Stealth, which is like Prowl, except it's 50%+3% base, and "So long as the character is in the dark and unsuspected, this is done automatically, without needing to roll the dice."
The percent is only for if the character's area is subjected to inspection.

i am also looking for the best starting weapons for a sniper. right now i get one energy pistol, one energy rifle, and three of choice. the only modern WP i don't have is submachine guns, military flamethrowers, and harpoon & spear gun.


I've always liked the JA-11 as a sniper's weapon. At least, up until RUE neutered it.
You had a 4d6 MD laser with 4k' range for sniping.
A 3d6 MD ion beam with lower range, but good against laser resistant targets, AND it could originally burst/spray. With the RGMG, it could double-tap for 6d6 MD, which was respectable. With RUE... well, it's nerfed because all the burst/spray and double-tap rules are gone for general energy weapons.
If you can find a GM who will let you house-rule a burst or pulse setting, it might still be a good weapon.
AND, of course, the JA-11 could fire a bullet as well, which was nice for SDC targets, vampires, and so forth (people have already pointed out the benefits of bullets).

I made some homebrew sniper weapons a while back, if you or your GM is interested.
viewtopic.php?p=2012366#p2012366
viewtopic.php?p=2010105#p2010105

Only other note is that Kevin Siembieda has said that the GI-Joe rule with armor is supposed to be used "with common sense," and that 1 MDC won't save somebody hit for 100 MD. (or maybe it was 30 MD?)
But there wasn't much in the way of parameters for gauging exactly how much that last 1 MDC would absorb.

Oh, and a sniper with long-distance paint rounds against helmeted opponents?
That can be pretty effective at blinding them.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Blackwater Sniper »

I played a character who had the role of overwatch/support. As a Temporal Warrior, he kept his bulky weapons in smaller, dimensional hard-cases and could carry many different weapons and types of ammo for different situations without standing out in a crowd. Using his magic, he could suppress the report and nearly completely hide him from technological means.

Rarely was he out of sight of the rest of the team and he never made shots more than a couple blocks away. Sometimes from rooftops but most often by spontaneously jumping on a parked vehicle or other ground-level stable environment.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Blackwater Sniper wrote:I played a character who had the role of overwatch/support. As a Temporal Warrior, he kept his bulky weapons in smaller, dimensional hard-cases and could carry many different weapons and types of ammo for different situations without standing out in a crowd. Using his magic, he could suppress the report and nearly completely hide him from technological means.

Rarely was he out of sight of the rest of the team and he never made shots more than a couple blocks away. Sometimes from rooftops but most often by spontaneously jumping on a parked vehicle or other ground-level stable environment.


Could he teleport?
Because man... having a sniper who could leave combat, and re-engage from a mile away, would be pretty sweet.

Now I kinda wanna roll up a sniper mage.
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Re: how to be a good sniper

Unread post by jaymz »

No mage needed.....TW ghillie suit powered by a PPE "Clip".
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