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 Post subject: Literate goblins
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:09 am
  

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Explorer

Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 2:01 am
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Location: Locus Solus
Comment: Tasty
Came across something the other night and wanted to get some takes on it. I was reading a bit of the entry for Gnirbin in Garden of the Gods. The Coincaster specifically. Whack a lump of valuable metal and it'll turn the raw ore in finished coins. The coins themselves have a tiny image of Gnirbin smiling upon one side and the word “prosperity” in Gobblely upon the other. So I dug out my PF RPG main book and looked up the skill description on page 50. It says Gobblely does not have a written language.

Just one of those errors that crop up over the years? Did I miss goblins developing a written language?

Smiling_Bandit - Does his best to treat goblins well, except for when they're little poo-heads

_________________
Cave Johnson wrote:
Alright this next test may involve trace amounts of time travel. So word of advice: if you meet yourself on the testing track don't make eye contact. Lab boys tell me that'll wipe out time - entirely. Forward and backward. So do both of yourselves a favor and let that handsome devil go about his business.


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 Post subject: Re: Literate goblins
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:44 am
  

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Champion

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:05 pm
Posts: 2487
Comment: Kill it with Fire.
In first ed your native written language was from the area you grew up in

From the read/write native language skill
This applies only to the person's native language (area or race in which he was raised) and not any other racial or regional language

So if your were from Timiro your native written language would likely be human southern, even as a goblin, except for places like the iron city which would likely be dwarven due to the prevalence of dwarves, so i'd guess if a goblin can write its from where he is.


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 Post subject: Re: Literate goblins
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:46 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:32 am
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Location: Great Britain
It's just an error, I'm sure.
But for an explanation - I don't remember the reference, but it sounds like a magic thing - could it be using an ancient and forgotten Gobblely form of writing that has been lost?
Or, perhaps the word prosperity is Gobblely, but it is written using the script of another language, a bit like I can write a Russian or Mandarin word like glasnost or Beijing using "Roman" letters - just approximating the sound of the Gobblely word.

FYI, note that the Timiro language is Eastern, not Southern.


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 Post subject: Re: Literate goblins
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:17 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:05 pm
Posts: 2487
Comment: Kill it with Fire.
Soldier of Od wrote:
FYI, note that the Timiro language is Eastern, not Southern.


Just Curious, does it actually say that anywhere, because amongst the npc's, speaking southern tends to be the highest percentage, then eastern as lower or sometimes the same, and there are places that don't teach eastern but do teach southern, but no places that don't teach southern.


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 Post subject: Re: Literate goblins
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:59 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
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Location: Eastvale, calif
Soldier of Od wrote:
It's just an error, I'm sure.
But for an explanation - I don't remember the reference, but it sounds like a magic thing - could it be using an ancient and forgotten Gobblely form of writing that has been lost?
Or, perhaps the word prosperity is Gobblely, but it is written using the script of another language, a bit like I can write a Russian or Mandarin word like glasnost or Beijing using "Roman" letters - just approximating the sound of the Gobblely word.

FYI, note that the Timiro language is Eastern, not Southern.


Note: The Japanese language can be written with roman letters ( Romaji ). But then again Japanese has two native modern writing systems and barrows heavily from the chinese writing symbols...*shrugs*.
Or like how Hanukkah is real a Hebrew word written in Roman letters, but because English sounds don't have the first sound of the Hebrew word so what is said in the USA is a transliteration (close approximation) of the original word.

Then there is the possibility that there was once was a Written Gobblety language. But it was lost somewhere along the span of time. And the GotGs text is referencing that old...lost written language.

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Answering the OP's question with the canon answer should be done First.
After that you can post your house rules....as your house rules.

May you be blessed with understanding,
and the ability to change course when you are off the mark.


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 Post subject: Re: Literate goblins
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:27 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:05 pm
Posts: 2487
Comment: Kill it with Fire.
Hmm, if that's the case i wonder if faerie has a lost written language and that's what it could be referencing


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 Post subject: Re: Literate goblins
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:39 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:32 am
Posts: 838
Location: Great Britain
kiralon wrote:
Soldier of Od wrote:
FYI, note that the Timiro language is Eastern, not Southern.

Just Curious, does it actually say that anywhere, because amongst the npc's, speaking southern tends to be the highest percentage, then eastern as lower or sometimes the same, and there are places that don't teach eastern but do teach southern, but no places that don't teach southern.

Hi Kiralon. Yeah - it's in the main book, under the language skill description. Human Eastern is the language of "the Timiro Kingdom, Eastern Territory, Phi, Lopan, and scattered clans and outposts in the Old Kingdom and Great Northern Wilderness."

I don't know about the places you mention that teach southern, but could that actually be because southern is a foreign language - you have to go to a school to learn it. Eastern you just learn organically as a child from your parents or whatever. There are likely to be more schools in Timiro that teach locals a foreign language than schools that teach foreigners the Timiro language.


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 Post subject: Re: Literate goblins
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:03 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 17462
Location: Eastvale, calif
kiralon wrote:
snip... and there are places that don't teach eastern but do teach southern, but no places that don't teach southern.

The way to think of languages is where they are 'used'.

Using words like 'teach' and 'taught' implies, wrongly, that there is a school system that educated the population (like in modern times), where there is none.

As to where each language is used....these places can be found on page 50 of the PF2 game's core book.

_________________
Answering the OP's question with the canon answer should be done First.
After that you can post your house rules....as your house rules.

May you be blessed with understanding,
and the ability to change course when you are off the mark.


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 Post subject: Re: Literate goblins
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:07 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:05 pm
Posts: 2487
Comment: Kill it with Fire.
I wonder why a lot of the npc's (which are mostly the fort commanders) speak southern at %98 like its their native language and eastern at %80, and for the learning it was the written language, which you do have to learn. Looks like it was southern in first ed, and as kevins plans got together more it changed, but that change wasn't propagated through the books. I think ill stick with southern being for Timiro, which is how i played it from the start, but is interesting to know. cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Literate goblins
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:15 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:01 pm
Posts: 228
Location: Montana
kiralon wrote:
I wonder why a lot of the npc's (which are mostly the fort commanders) speak southern at %98 like its their native language and eastern at %80, and for the learning it was the written language, which you do have to learn. Looks like it was southern in first ed, and as kevins plans got together more it changed, but that change wasn't propagated through the books. I think ill stick with southern being for Timiro, which is how i played it from the start, but is interesting to know. cheers


And the slant of languages known by npcs and the languages of books available in shops are the same in both editions of the Old Ones books (leaning heavily towards Southern), in spite of what the main book might say. I wonder whether the numerous spots in the Old Ones book are mistakes, or if the main book listing is the mistake...

I do run my games with Eastern being the language of the Timiro Kingdom, but that is mainly due to my wanting to have the Land of the South Winds, Floenry Isles, and the Eastern Yin-Sloth Jungles have its own language with cultures that are quite different from the Timiro Kingdom and Eastern Territories.


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 Post subject: Re: Literate goblins
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:18 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:05 pm
Posts: 2487
Comment: Kill it with Fire.
I think initially it was southern, and then as the world view (more books released) changed they migrated to eastern, but with palladiums known copy/pasting issues keeping it looking like southern. Eastern does make more sense though.
Yin sloths humans are mostly made up of humans from timiro though, so they should have eastern as well, with the tribal peoples speaking southern. The languages are a bit of a mess.


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 Post subject: Re: Literate goblins
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:20 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:32 am
Posts: 838
Location: Great Britain
kiralon wrote:
I think initially it was southern, and then as the world view (more books released) changed they migrated to eastern, but with palladiums known copy/pasting issues keeping it looking like southern. Eastern does make more sense though.
Yin sloths humans are mostly made up of humans from timiro though, so they should have eastern as well, with the tribal peoples speaking southern. The languages are a bit of a mess.

Uh, Palladium Books - there they go again! :roll: Yeah, it looks like you might be right in your copy/paste issues explanation.

I hadn't noticed the contradictory NPCs skills before. Eastern language for Timiro always made sense to me anyway. Otherwise, as a new-ish nation, where does the language of the Eastern Territory come from? I figured it was the language of some (most?) of the people who migrated to the Eastern Territory (those from Timiro), and spread to become the standard language of the new territory, even though there are plenty of people from other nations there as well. Sort of like the main language of the United States of America is English, even though people from plenty of other places also settled there.


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 Post subject: Re: Literate goblins
Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:04 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6753
Location: WI
Smiling_Bandit wrote:
Came across something the other night and wanted to get some takes on it. I was reading a bit of the entry for Gnirbin in Garden of the Gods. The Coincaster specifically. Whack a lump of valuable metal and it'll turn the raw ore in finished coins. The coins themselves have a tiny image of Gnirbin smiling upon one side and the word “prosperity” in Gobblely upon the other. So I dug out my PF RPG main book and looked up the skill description on page 50. It says Gobblely does not have a written language.

Just one of those errors that crop up over the years? Did I miss goblins developing a written language?

Smiling_Bandit - Does his best to treat goblins well, except for when they're little poo-heads

Megaversally Rifts (MB pg31-2or UE pg264-5) did not mention a restriction on Gobbley in regard to Literacy (or any language really).

My copy of WB2 (RMB-era) for the High Lord RCC (pg43-5) has a sub-section labeled (pg45): "Languages & Literacy" and it includes Gobbley on the list. I could not find an example of Literacy: Gobbley in any OCC/RCC I did a quick look at, but I did not review every book I have or any NPCs.

Interestingly enough the RUE description for Gobbley (pg264) in the Language: Other skill description has this to say about the Faerie Speak "(universal language of all Faries, though one can communicate with Faeries using Dragonese or Gobbley at -10%)". This could then possibly mean that Gobbley & Faerie could use Dragonese/Elf as their written language or a slight variation on it (think period/regional variations on spelling, ex: color or colour).

Whether any of the above impacts PF is up to the GM at this point, but it would seem that Gobbley could have a Megaversal written language that has been lost on the Palladium World. Though internally (to the PF line) it does look like a snafu.


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 Post subject: Re: Literate goblins
Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:17 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6753
Location: WI
I went on a deeper search of looking for Literacy: Gobbley looking in NPC skill entries, and while I did not do an exhaustive search of my library, I did find 9 instances between 4 books (plus one for Faerie) spread across the Megaverse:
PF: Land of the Damned #2** pg181 (speak/literate)
PF/Rifts: D&G pg147 (vague*)
Rifts: SoT#4 pg83 (vague*)
Rifts: SoT#6 pg142 & 146& 144 (lump as Speak/Literate), pg 46 & 151 (vague*), pg165 (Literacy is mentioned), pg161 (speak/literate for Faerie)

*IMHO the wording could be better here, but they imply the Literacy. I did note that Palladium doesn't have a uniform way to present this either, unlike every other skill the Language related ones (speak/read) get presented differently sometimes in the same book.

**I also noticed two other language skills that might be of interest. Chaotica (pg181) an Old Ones battle tongue, and a Slaughterhawk Language (pg95) that can be learned (and has been by Diabolists for written Coded messages, implication here is no formal written form).


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 Post subject: Re: Literate goblins
Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:34 pm
  

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Explorer

Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 2:01 am
Posts: 191
Location: Locus Solus
Comment: Tasty
Thanks for all the input folks. I think I'm going to go with the more recent books and say there is a goblin written language. I gotta move a skill or two around, but I'm pretty happy there is a precedent for it.

Smiling_Bandit - Knew he could count on the brain trust in this instance

_________________
Cave Johnson wrote:
Alright this next test may involve trace amounts of time travel. So word of advice: if you meet yourself on the testing track don't make eye contact. Lab boys tell me that'll wipe out time - entirely. Forward and backward. So do both of yourselves a favor and let that handsome devil go about his business.


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