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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:38 am
  

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D-Bee

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Ok can someone please explain how this all works with a weapon that has a unlimited payload and at most takes 3 attacks to fire both at the same time.. My thinking is that if I have 7 or 8 attacks to start I can fire both blasters a couple of times to really soften up the Bots from up to 10,000 ft away....So if your going to get the omega blasters why not just get the Mega and Omni upgrades and save the rest of your BIO-E points for that cappuccino maker enhancement. :-D

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 Post subject: Check your numbers.....
Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:11 pm
  

D-Bee

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First thing to note is that the text says it takes three melee actions to fire both blasters.

Melee action #1 -- Open First Protectiveve plate
Melee action #2 -- Open Second Protective Plate
Melee action #3 -- Fire blasters.

Now here is the fun part -- Wait till next Melee ROUND to fire again.
Regardless if you have left over Melee actions for this round you can not fire again till next round "this weapon can only fire once per melee round"

So yours blaster which you have invested 330 bio-points on (not sure how much you have left after that if any) has left you a sitting duck waiting for next round. Lets hope that you are always facing enemies at range for when they get close enough all you will be able to do is maybe invite them to sit down and have a cappuccino.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:36 pm
  

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BladeWeaver wrote:
So yours blaster which you have invested 330 bio-points on (not sure how much you have left after that if any) has left you a sitting duck waiting for next round. Lets hope that you are always facing enemies at range for when they get close enough all you will be able to do is maybe invite them to sit down and have a cappuccino.

Actually, the cost is more then that...
Just to get 2 Omega Blasters...
  • Resistant to Heat - 5 Bio-E
  • Enhanced Neurological Connection - 20 Bio-E
  • x2 Omega Blasters (80 Bio-E ea.) - 160 total
Thats 185 Bio-E spent.

Now keep in mind for the range weapon upgrades, even though you are upgrading 2 of the same type of weapon, you have to pay for the upgrade 2 times as well, once for each weapon... (see pg 76, 2nd column, 1st paragraph)
Maxed out weapon upgrades...
  • x2 Mega Upgrades (50 ea) 100 Bio-E
  • x2 Omni Upgrades (35 ea) 70 Bio-E
  • x2 Super Upgrades (20 ea) 40 Bio-E
  • x2 Ultra Upgrades (10 ea) 20 Bio-E
Thats 230 Bio-E spent.
Total Bio-E cost for a set of maxed out Omega-Blasters - 415 Bio-E!!!

Actually now thinking about it, drop the x2 Ultra Upgrades. Since the Ultra Upgrade doubles the payload, and the Omega Blasters have a infinite payload, the Ultra Upgrade would be pointless, so the Total Bio-E Cost for a set of Maxed out Omega Blasters would be 395 Bio-E!!! Still alot.
hmmm 4D8x10/ 10,000ft range. Rate of fire of 4 per melee (ea Omega Blaster firing twice per melee). Or 8D8x10 for 2 dual blasts!!! OUCH!!!

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Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:55 pm
  

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Monk

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Cool ideal! Thanks again! :ok:

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:48 pm
  

D-Bee

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and don't forget that if what your blasting is smaller than the radius of the beam all areas of the object get blasted. a maxed out omega blaster could probably hit that whole tank and do some serious damage to it :eek: :eek:

like if you blasted a robot and the beam completely covered it you would take the damage from main body-arms-legs-head-feet-weapon system-etc... 8-) 8-) 8-) each area would take the same damage outragously powerful

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:01 am
  

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Knight

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Well we always used the Double the Payload upgrade to mean for Unlimited payload weapons, you can fire it Twice in this case.

1 attack open side A
1 attack open side b
1 attack to actually Fire 1st attack
wait 1 attack to charge next attack, since they are already open.
1 attack to fire again
Omega Blasters used up until next round

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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:37 am
  

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That would work. If you want to know what the damage would look like, pick up one of the later issues of Bio-Booster Armor Guiver. I think this was one of the main inspirations for Splicers.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:45 pm
  

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dracolych wrote:
That would work. If you want to know what the damage would look like, pick up one of the later issues of Bio-Booster Armor Guiver. I think this was one of the main inspirations for Splicers.


It was a major inspiration for the Host Armors.

Awhile back i believe they started to say otherwise, because we (Me, ok) was posting semi-guyver conversion threads. Well more like Zoanoids for Host Armors ;)

In fact i was searching my harddrive for Zoanoid picts for this very purpose earlier this morning :demon:

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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:01 pm
  

D-Bee

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i still think i will be able to use the splicers with very little tweaking as a (guyver) heros source book, just remember you have to be playing a high power game to really use a guyver character. the other players need to be at least 5-6-7 and the guyver needs to be 1-2. imo

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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:02 pm
  

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ChrisB-N-DE wrote:
i still think i will be able to use the splicers with very little tweaking as a (guyver) heros source book, just remember you have to be playing a high power game to really use a guyver character. the other players need to be at least 5-6-7 and the guyver needs to be 1-2. imo
NO CONVERSIONS!!!!!!

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:21 pm
  

D-Bee

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What is that for??? I'm planning to use the splicers book to make characters for heroes???

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:24 pm
  

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Conversions of any system, intellectual property or any thing not owned by Palladium books is not allowed to be posted. Now thats not to say you cant do the conversions for yourself and for your use, its just that we cant post them to the net (or book form for that matter).

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:08 pm
  

D-Bee

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all i'm saying is a host armor in heroes would count as a mega hero and to balance the game they should start at a lower level than the rest of the group. how is that a conversion. aren't all palladium games interchangeable, that is how i've always ran them. :(

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:16 pm
  

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ChrisB-N-DE wrote:
i still think i will be able to use the splicers with very little tweaking as a (guyver) heros source book, just remember you have to be playing a high power game to really use a guyver character. the other players need to be at least 5-6-7 and the guyver needs to be 1-2. imo


Sorry about that, by the way your post reads it sounds like your asking about making conversions.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:26 pm
  

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What..... :?


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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:33 pm
  

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The Deific NMI wrote:
BladeWeaver wrote:
So yours blaster which you have invested 330 bio-points on (not sure how much you have left after that if any) has left you a sitting duck waiting for next round. Lets hope that you are always facing enemies at range for when they get close enough all you will be able to do is maybe invite them to sit down and have a cappuccino.

Actually, the cost is more then that...
Just to get 2 Omega Blasters...
  • Resistant to Heat - 5 Bio-E
  • Enhanced Neurological Connection - 20 Bio-E
  • x2 Omega Blasters (80 Bio-E ea.) - 160 total
Thats 185 Bio-E spent.

Now keep in mind for the range weapon upgrades, even though you are upgrading 2 of the same type of weapon, you have to pay for the upgrade 2 times as well, once for each weapon... (see pg 76, 2nd column, 1st paragraph)
Maxed out weapon upgrades...
  • x2 Mega Upgrades (50 ea) 100 Bio-E
  • x2 Omni Upgrades (35 ea) 70 Bio-E
  • x2 Super Upgrades (20 ea) 40 Bio-E
  • x2 Ultra Upgrades (10 ea) 20 Bio-E
Thats 230 Bio-E spent.
Total Bio-E cost for a set of maxed out Omega-Blasters - 415 Bio-E!!!

Actually now thinking about it, drop the x2 Ultra Upgrades. Since the Ultra Upgrade doubles the payload, and the Omega Blasters have a infinite payload, the Ultra Upgrade would be pointless, so the Total Bio-E Cost for a set of Maxed out Omega Blasters would be 395 Bio-E!!! Still alot.
hmmm 4D8x10/ 10,000ft range. Rate of fire of 4 per melee (ea Omega Blaster firing twice per melee). Or 8D8x10 for 2 dual blasts!!! OUCH!!!


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:32 pm
  

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I was about to make a thread with this exact title based on page 107.

I am wondering about the Ultra upgrade to the Omega-Blaster though.

What does it actually DO, in this case?

Payload-doubling and ammo-regrow-halving seems like something you would buy for missiles, spikes, etc. Not for energy-blast weapons which have unlimited payloads.

Is it possible that you need the Ultra and Super upgrade in combination to compliment one another or they would be useless on their own?

Super doubles the firing rate but... it wouldn't amplify the energy regeneration rate or the energy storage capacity like Ultra does. So you COULD fire faster... if you actually had to ammo the fire. But you don't so it's useless.

Conversely with just Ultra, you COULD in THEORY fire off the 2 shots per round (you got the payload stored, you 2 shots per round instead of 1 shot per round, or 1 shot per half round) but the weapon can still only blast once/round so it's useless.

Ultra+Super though, you can store 2 shots in the gun instead of 1 (ultra) you can regen 2 shots per melee instead of 1 (ultra) and you can fire 2 shots per round (super)

This makes me wonder if there are any other ranged weapons besides the Omega-Blaster which similarly may require the simultaneous coexistence of Super and Ultra to take advantage of either of them.

Does anyone disagree with my speculation and have a different interpretation of how either Super or Ultra may benefit the Omega Blaster in isolation?

The Mega/Omni damage/range stuff is all very straightforward on the other hand. I think most people opt for those so it's easy to overlook complications that arise with the less popular Super/Ultra ones.

If the USOMO blaster wasn't crazy-powerful enough, now I'm wondering what would happen if the Geneticists OCC's Bio-Weapon Enhancements (Rifter 50 page 82) were stacked on top of this. The 'Decrease Bio-E Cost' approach is mentioned as being able to reduce the Omega from 50>45 and it can do similar reductions for anything down til 10, making building USOMOBs cheaper.

The Increasing Weapon Capabilities trinity could increase accuracy (although Omega-blasters are already pretty accurate), can extend the range further than Omni (presumably you can only buy Omni once?) and increase the damage die.

The extra die seemed low to me at first. "What, 1d8x10 plus 1d8?" but then I realized in reading elsewhere that when you add a damage die to a weapon, it is PRE-multiplier. So that would actually change it to 2d8x10, a Geneticist can double the OmegaBlaster's damage for less than half the base cost of the Mega-upgrade.

Regarding the pre-multiplier thing I am trying to remember which page in the book I saw that on, if anyone remembers seeing it too, would appreciate the help. I was mega-shocked when I saw it.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:00 pm
  

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basically, for any of this you're going to need to house rule it for your own use.

it's palladium. it was written by gamers, not lawyers, and is meant to be written by gamers, not lawyers. do your best to interpret rules how you think will make the game better.

super specifically says it lets you use weapons more often. so it does. it doesn't need anything extra to do it; your omega blasters already have the ammo, nothing more is needed.

and in any event, any such combo is going to take a long time to get rolling. you can't even get an omega blaster until level 2, and they're crazy expensive. so you need to make sure you have enough in your host armour to let you be effective, while saving up for the omega blasters (a cost of 170 bio-e for two, which is non-trivial to say the least). after already spending 25 for the pre-requisites.

that said, it might be possible to upgrade both blasters as a system - that's GM's call. my personal opinion is that you should be allowed to upgrade something as a system as long as you can fire it as a single weapon... but i don't imagine everyone feels that way. but i for one would allow someone to upgrade 2 omega blasters with a single super, mega, or omni upgrade rather than 2 (bearing in mind that the person has had to save up a lot for those blasters to begin with, and basically has one really amazing weapon... and probably not much else in the way of either special offensive or defensive options). ultra, as written, does nothing for the omega blaster, which uses no ammunition. i would be inclined to keep it that way (otherwise, it doubles as a cheaper super, which seems just silly).


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:42 pm
  

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The Omega-Blaster has an unlimited payload, but a limited use per melee round. This means that Ultra Upgrade does nothing for the Blaster as it already has an unlimited payload (you can't double infinite shots).

To shoot more than once per melee round (per Blaster), the Super- Upgrade is needed. This allows the Blasters to fire a Second shot each (provided both have the upgrade).

As for how something with an infinite payload can only shoot once per melee... consider it the recharge time between shots. The power supply of the suit makes it so that there is always enough power to make a shot, but only one charge per melee round for such a powerful weapon. In other words, he can fire it every melee round without worry of running out of power/ammunition, but it still takes time to recharge for that next shot. With the Super Upgrade, the time it takes to recharge is cut in half, allowing two shots per blaster to be fired. Where the un-upgraded Blaster needs 15 seconds to recharge before firing again, the upgraded one only needs 7.5 seconds to recharge for a second shot. Both can still fire every melee round for hours if needed without running out of power/ammunition, but still requires time to recharge before that next shot can be fired.

Less powerful blasters recharge very quickly, allowing one to fire them as many times per melee round as one has attacks... or even more so if they have a pulse feature (firing multiple shots in a burst fire). The amount of firepower that is used with one Omega Blaster shot however requires a longer recharge cycle, limiting the amount of time it can be used per melee, but still allowing for an unlimited payload.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:56 pm
  

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107 says you can have an Ultra Omega blaster so... we need to figure out something for Ultra to do. I think supporting Super is that thing. Unless there's some other idea on how to apply it?

Although the Omega-Blaster in theory has an 'unlimited' payload, in its basic form, it functionally does not have that.

Since it can only fire 1 blast per round, that can be treated as having a payload of 1 and a shot-regeneration rate of 1 per melee. After all it is merely "effectively" unlimited, not blatently unlimited. Something with RoF 1/round payload 1 regen 1/round IS effectively unlimited, but something with Rof 2/round payload 1 regen 1/round would not be.

In which case you would also need to up the payload and the regeneration rate to be able to fire off 2 per round.

Something odd about the attacks spent on this weapon... it takes 1 action to open 1 or both plates... 2 including that action to fire 1, 3 including that 1 to fire two... so basically 1 to open the plate, and 1 per blaster, but a double-blaster is basically a power-punch where you spend 2 actions to do one combined action...

But what if someone just keeps the plates open and doesn't close them after they fire? Wouldn't it then cost 1 action for a standard Omega and 2 actions for a double?

All I figure is maybe both armoured plates automatically shut after a blast is fired (one or double) as some kind of biological reflex.

Shark_Force wrote:
you can't even get an omega blaster until level 2
Where does it say that? Although you need to wait until you level up to upgrade a preceding weapon, the Omega is not an advanced version of a preceding weapon so I think you can select it and its 25bioE of prereqs simultaneously if you roll high enough starting Bio-E (105 is mostly feasible for Dreadknights though)

Shark_Force wrote:
ultra, as written, does nothing for the omega blaster, which uses no ammunition. i would be inclined to keep it that way (otherwise, it doubles as a cheaper super, which seems just silly).

My 'otherwise' is that you need Super and Ultra and that they would be useless alone. As the book says you can purchase Ultra for the Omega then I am inclined to assume it does something, and that is support Super.

Someone with only the Super upgrade but not the Ultra upgrade could perhaps as a house-rule still shoot 2x per melee but there should be some kind of penalty for doing so, imagine they are drawing on their body energy to get that extra shot since they can't store a 2nd shot and can't regenerate that first shot until the 2nd round.

Buying Ultra without having Super first would not actually do anything far as I can figure out though. But that's fine, players can just buy in a certain order.

The penalties on page 98 under 'Bio-Energy Expulsion Vents' could be used for this, and then if you bought Ultra you could avoid the penalties. Incurring some minutes of penalties isn't as huge a deal for Omega-shooters since that 2nd blast could let them wipe out threats quickly, letting them recover in peace. Losing melee attacks is also not a very huge deal since Omega-folk tend to not be capable of much in their other attacks anyway.

Come to think of it, Organic Rockets have a slightly longer range than the Omega-Blaster, and a 3-charge Photon Infuser blast can also go farther, so I was wrong to initially assume the Omega is furthest-sniping. But it's still the go-to for many classes since not everyone has photosynthetic Host Armor to use the Infusor and missiles take a long time to regrow (now THERE is a clear use for Ultra) although a volley of 4 does surpass the Omega's damage (although there's no beating the amazing blast radius of a double-Omega)

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:18 pm
  

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I'm sorry Tor, you are confusing a Rate of Fire limitation for a payload limitation.

While both limit the number of times one can use a weapon, they are very different things. A Tank may have a payload of 100 shells it can fire, but it still has a rate of fire limitation since each shell has to be loaded, fired and then ejected before another one can be loaded for firing. Not every weapon can be fired with a single action. The Omega Blaster is one of these, in that it takes at least 2 actions to fire, but even then, it needs time to recharge... not unlike a tank needing time to eject a spent shell, reload a new one and then fire again.

This isn't a payload problem... it is just the nature of the weapon requiring more time between shots than an automatic pistol would (which can fire off a bullet with each pull of the trigger).

The Ultra upgrade is like using a longer clip in an automatic pistol, giving you more potential shots, but it doesn't speed up how long it takes to fire those shots. The Super upgrade is more like automating the process of ejecting a tank shell and reloading a new one... faster than a normal tank team would be able to do it, thus allowing the tank to fire at a faster rate. In the case of the Omega Blaster, it reduces the time it takes to recharge from 15 seconds to about 7 seconds.

As for the "proof" of having a Ultra-Super-Omni-Mega Omega Blaster... that was more to prove the point that yes, you can stack these upgrades on a given weapon IF you are willing to pay the Bio-E cost. It was not meant to mean that the Ultra upgrade works for the Omega Blaster.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:31 pm
  

Palladin

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the omega blaster is limited to 2nd level because the restriction is not on weapons, but everything in general. page 76, "Only one upgrade in a series of prerequisites can be taken at any given time." the omega blaster has prerequisites, and must therefore wait until level 2.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:51 am
  

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I dunno Razor, they could have chosen any other weapon for the example of 'you can buy it all', but they chose the Omega, I am inclined to think that means the Ultra does something for the Omega.

I don't think an 'effectively' unlimited payload is necessarily an 'absolutely' unlimited one. So long as a weapon can generate shots as fast as they can be fired, it is 'effectively' unlimited even if it can't store infinite shots or regenerate shots infinitely fast, since it doesn't need to.

I'm pretty sure I've seen other weapons be called 'effectively' unlimited but still have energy production limitations that require them to take breaks to recharge the shots. If we look at it that way, it could initially be perfectly in sync with the firing rate, but if the firing rate gets amped, it can't keep up.

Shark the example given for prerequisites is the Casting Thrower>Gun chain where something is literally replaced with something new, I don't think it was meant to cover ALL prerequisites, just transformative ones.

If we look at Ralph paying his Bio-E on page 108, he is even able to buy 'upgraded' Forearm blades at 1st level before upgrading them further at 4th level.

If 'prerequisite' is taken how you are, wouldn't this mean anything with a metabolism prereq also could not be selected until level 2, since level 1 is when you select the metabolism of your host armor?

The key word here, which you italicized but seem to ignore, is 'upgrade'.

The Omega blaster is not an 'upgrade' of Heat Resistance. Upgrades replace their precursors. If the prerequisites are retained then whatever you got is not an upgrade.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:24 am
  

Palladin

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i'm pretty sure they picked the omega blaster for their super-mega-ultra-omni example because it's the most expensive thing out there, not because they checked if everything could apply.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:33 am
  

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Hero

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I agree with Shark as to the reason the picked the Omega Blaster for their example of adding all the upgrades... though not just because it was the most expensive one at the time (the Photon Infuser Cannon can cost both more and less, depending where the absorbsion plates are located), but also because it is one of the most powerful weapons one can get... more so when fully upgraded, but that is going to be very costly... and that is the reason for the example using the Omega Blaster... the Bio-E cost of doing so.

Shark is also right about needing prerequisites before getting certain modifications. They need to be bought at a previous level and act as the foundation upon which new modifications are made. As for Ralph's buying an "upgraded" Bone Blade at the start... Bone Blades don't have "upgrades" like Casting Guns or similar weapons, and can be made as big and deal as much damage as one wants from the get go... depending on the Bio-E one is willing to sink into them. The can also be "upgraded" when more Bio-E becomes available.

As for the Ultra Upgrade, at least in respect to Omega Blasters, there really isn't anything it will do... it doubles the payload of a weapon... so how do you double an infinite payload? The Omega Blaster's problem is rate of fire... it takes time to recharge the blasters for a second shot. This puts it squarely into the Super upgrade's territory which is designed to increase the number of times the weapon can be fired.

Now, there is one case when the Ultra upgrade would be effective with a weapon that does have an unlimited payload... the Bio-Energy Expulsion Vents. While they do effectively have an unlimited payload, there is a limit to how many shots one can fire before it starts to weaken the user, in this case, about 20 shots per minute (5 per melee). The Ultra upgrade would double this to about 40 shots a minute before one starts to weaken. The one question that isn't answered in the book is if one has multiple vents, can each be fired 20/40 times per minute or is that the total number of shots between all vents? Given the nature of the weapon, I am inclined to thing the latter.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:40 pm
  

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Having prerequisites does not make something an upgrade, and the 1-per-level things only applies to things which are upgrades, not ANYTHING with a prerequisite. Upgrades are modifications to an existing thing, not an entirely new thing which happens to require some other stuff.

The Omega Blaster is not stated as having an infinite payload, that`s not what effectively unlimited means when PB writes it. This can be seen in Rifts Mercenaries page 136 for example, the Particle Beam Cannon of the Death-Knight Assault Robot has an effectively unlimited payload yet it has a maximum amount of blasts which recharges its shots on a per-minute basis.

The basic Omega-Blaster has no payload restrictions presumably because it generates blasts as fast as it can fire them. But if the firing rate is increased, that may no longer be the case. Ultra is implied to have a use, so that must be it. I think we should use the Bio-Vent penalties for people who buy Super but not Ultra.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:30 pm
  

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Hero

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Effectively unlimited means just that... the payload is effectively unlimited. Increase the rate of fire and guess what? The payload remains effectively unlimited.

All the "pure" energy based weapons described in the corebook have effectively unlimited payloads... in that they do not need to be reloaded. Even the Bio-Energy Vents have an "effectively" unlimited payload... though exceeding 20 per minute does weaken a character. There is nothing that suggests that if one upgraded the Omega Blaster with the Super upgrade that he now has a limited number of shots... only that he can now make two shots per melee instead of only 1 per melee.

I'm sorry to say that you are reading far more into the single sentence that states "you can have an Ultra-Super-Omni-Mega Omega Blaster" than was intended. It was intended to mean that you can put more than one of the Ranged Weapon Upgrades on a weapon if you are willing to pay for them all (the upgrades that is). It wasn't supposed to mean that all the Upgrades have an effect on the Omega Blaster.

As for your suggestion that we should be using the Bio-Vent penalties for not buying the Ultra upgrade in conjunction with the Super upgrade (even though you can't buy both at the same time anyways) for the Omega Blaster... no. There is just no reason to add the penalty since the Ultra upgrade isn't needed for the Omega Blaster.

You'll probably have better luck arguing why we should allow players to buy the Super Upgrade for things like the Bio-Energy Vents to allow players to fire more than one shot per action (because only being able to fire a single shot with every attack is soooo limiting).

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:54 pm
  

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Palladin

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Effectively unlimited (per the Death Knight example I provided) only appears to mean that it is self-renewable and not reliant on an external source of ammunition. It does not mean infinite shots, the Death Knight by Naruni proves that.

Although the Omega-Blaster has no limits in its basic form, we only know for sure that its payload-storage and regeneration-rate are able to sustain it in its basic form. Requiring the Ultra boost to support the enhanced-rate version would make sense if it was only built to support that basic form.

Quote:
All the "pure" energy based weapons described in the corebook have effectively unlimited payloads... in that they do not need to be reloaded.
The bio-energy blaster is pure energy and although its payload is 'effectively' unlimited (no reloading, no external dependence) the amount of shots you can fire within a limited period of time IS limited (like the Naruni Death Knight bot) so assuming 1-payload 1-regen the Ultra could modify that to 2-payload 2-regen to support the Super-RoF.

I believe that when Carmen Bellaire wrote these upgrades, he knew exactly what each one did, and he knew what the Omega-Blaster did too, so he would've omitted Ultra from the OmegaBlaster-upgrade list if it didn't do anything.

Quote:
As for your suggestion that we should be using the Bio-Vent penalties for not buying the Ultra upgrade in conjunction with the Super upgrade (even though you can't buy both at the same time anyways)

Right, so you would buy Super first and make limited use of the 2nd shot until you later bought the Ultra to reinforce the energy production and storage.

Quote:
There is just no reason to add the penalty since the Ultra upgrade isn't needed for the Omega Blaster.

If there was no need, why would someone buy it? Why would it be listed?

I believe the inclusion in the example is proof it is needed. The Omega Blaster would not logically (in its basic form) produce more energy than it can use, so I think we should assume that the energy production has the same limits as the firing rate, producing 1 shot per round.

Quote:
You'll probably have better luck arguing why we should allow players to buy the Super Upgrade for things like the Bio-Energy Vents to allow players to fire more than one shot per action
Why would I argue that? I'm not sure you get what the Super upgrade does. It only doubles availability-limits, so perhaps it might be interpreted as letting you fire up to 10 per round instead of 5 before penalties kick in? Although that might be more linked to energy regen and in the area of Ultra...

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:30 pm
  

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Hero

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You do realize that your own example basically states that it is an exception to the rule, right? It flat out states it is, telling you that it builds up charges slowly and that it can store a given amount.

The Omega Blaster doesn't state this at all... it just says "Effectively Unlimited". There is no modifier in the description that explains how it is different. It doesn't state that the weapon builds up a back up number of charges... or how long it takes to recharge. It just says, "effectively unlimited".

So, this basically invalidates your use of the Death Knight Armor as a valid example.

As for your argument that enhancing the rate of fire of the Omega Blaster might cause a significant drain on the power supply... if that were the case it would explain that in the Upgrades as a drawback. None of the Upgrades make any mention that the power supply will need to be enhanced if they are taken, which means that this argument also has no support.

As for comparing the Death Knight to the Bio-Vents, you've made yet another error... namely that the Bio-Vents don't run out of ammo. You can fire more than 20 shots in a minute if you have more than 6 or more attacks per melee... and guess what? The Bio-Vents will fire every time, though you will be weakened after that 21st shot in a minute. However, if you exhaust the charges from the particle beam cannon from the Death Knight... you can't fire any more shots until a charge is replenished (it takes 4 melee rounds to replenish a single charge). The difference is plane to see, the Bio-Vents don't run out of charges... you just suffer penalties if you go beyond the safety limits.

The fact is, you are misreading the example provided... you are using an example that it is possible to stack upgrades as proof that a given weapon can use a given upgrade. Had the example been a Ultra-Super-Omni-Mega Gore Cannon, you would be arguing that the Super Upgrade should allow you to fire 2 gore shots per action rather than just the 1 you get with every attack.

Unless you can find a second example of where an Omega Blaster has the Ultra upgrade (I'll even be generous to let you use "unofficial" write-ups from the Rifter), then it is clear that this single example wasn't intended to be proof that the Omega Blaster can benefit from the Ultra Upgrade.

And for the record... I know full well what the Super Upgrade does... allows one to use a limited use weapon more often in a melee round than normal (doubles the availability). It does not increase the payload of a weapon (like you apparently think it would... that is the Ultra Upgrade).

Of course since the Gore Cannon is mentioned in the Super Upgrade example (in that it can't get the Super Upgrade at the same time it gets a Mega Upgrade), that must mean that it can benefit from the Super Upgrade, allowing to fire 2 shots with every action the pilot takes, right? See what I did there? It is the same logic you are using with the Omega Blaster, because since Carmen Bellaire wrote the book he must therefore know which weapons can benefit from which upgrades, why else would he use the Gore Cannon in an example for the Super Upgrade unless it can benefit from the upgrade, yes?

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:35 pm
  

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Palladin

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Razorwing wrote:
You do realize that your own example basically states that it is an exception to the rule, right? It flat out states it is, telling you that it builds up charges slowly and that it can store a given amount.


There is no 'rule' on what 'effectively unlimited' means. All we know is that, while not TRULY unlimited, it is 'effectively' so because it is impossible to expend energy fast enough to deplete the power source.

Although there is no modifier for the basic Omega-Blaster weapon, I think that only tells us that there is no limit in the basic form. If you fire it twice as often, I don't think we necessarily know that it can keep up.

Razorwing wrote:
It doesn't state that the weapon builds up a back up number of charges... or how long it takes to recharge. It just says, "effectively unlimited".

All that means, rather than really being unlimited, is that it produces a similar effect, because (in the basic form) you can't fire it often enough to deplete the energy your suit (or you, if Biotic) generate.

Razorwing wrote:
So, this basically invalidates your use of the Death Knight Armor as a valid example.

The Death Knight simply proves that 'effectively unlimited' really only means that it regenerates its ammo. The example is valid for that purpose.

Razorwing wrote:
As for your argument that enhancing the rate of fire of the Omega Blaster might cause a significant drain on the power supply... if that were the case it would explain that in the Upgrades as a drawback. None of the Upgrades make any mention that the power supply will need to be enhanced if they are taken, which means that this argument also has no support.

Obvious common-sense stuff like that does not need to be explained. Obviously if you are firing twice as often you can deplete your payload twice as fast.

Razorwing wrote:
As for comparing the Death Knight to the Bio-Vents, you've made yet another error... namely that the Bio-Vents don't run out of ammo. You can fire more than 20 shots in a minute if you have more than 6 or more attacks per melee... and guess what? The Bio-Vents will fire every time, though you will be weakened after that 21st shot in a minute. However, if you exhaust the charges from the particle beam cannon from the Death Knight... you can't fire any more shots until a charge is replenished (it takes 4 melee rounds to replenish a single charge). The difference is plane to see, the Bio-Vents don't run out of charges... you just suffer penalties if you go beyond the safety limits.

Which is what I'm saying we should do if someone gets the Super upgrade for the Omni Cannon and fires a second shot before they buy Ultra.

I'm not saying that Splicers-tech works like Naruni-tech, just that it is an example of 'effectively unlimited' not meaning 'I have an unlimited payload and an unlimited ammo regeneration speed'.

Razorwing wrote:
you are using an example that it is possible to stack upgrades as proof that a given weapon can use a given upgrade.

I'm using it as proof that a given weapon can use the upgrade because the example gives the weapon that upgrade and it seems odd to give a weapon an upgrade that does nothing.

Razorwing wrote:
Had the example been a Ultra-Super-Omni-Mega Gore Cannon, you would be arguing that the Super Upgrade should allow you to fire 2 gore shots per action rather than just the 1 you get with every attack.

No, I would not, that would be misreading how Super upgrade works.

It doubles a LIMITED firing rate. 1-per-attack is not limited.

The Light Gore Cannon is actually mentioned on 107 as something which you can buy a Super upgrade for. Since the firing rate is not limited in any way, this would mean you only get the MDC boost to the weapon.

Razorwing wrote:
Unless you can find a second example of where an Omega Blaster has the Ultra upgrade then it is clear that this single example wasn't intended to be proof that the Omega Blaster can benefit from the Ultra Upgrade.
The game is very light on examples, one is enough. It is absolute proof that the Omega Blaster can get the Ultra upgrade, and a strong indicator that the upgrade actually does something.

Or conversely, a player might just buy a useless upgrade for bragging rights to have a cooler name for their weapon and waste Bio-E, that's a possibility too.

Razorwing wrote:
I know full well what the Super Upgrade does... allows one to use a limited use weapon more often in a melee round than normal (doubles the availability). It does not increase the payload of a weapon (like you apparently think it would... that is the Ultra Upgrade).

Where did I say that the Super upgrade increases payload? That seems like what you are insinuating.

The Omni-Cannon at minimum only necessarily has a payload of 1 per round. That payload is not increased by Super.

Razorwing wrote:
Of course since the Gore Cannon is mentioned in the Super Upgrade example (in that it can't get the Super Upgrade at the same time it gets a Mega Upgrade), that must mean that it can benefit from the Super Upgrade, allowing to fire 2 shots with every action the pilot takes, right?

It can benefit from the Super Upgrade: it gets an MDC boost.

Razorwing wrote:
see what I did there? It is the same logic you are using with the Omega Blaster, because since Carmen Bellaire wrote the book he must therefore know which weapons can benefit from which upgrades, why else would he use the Gore Cannon in an example for the Super Upgrade unless it can benefit from the upgrade, yes?

It can benefit: it gains the additional MDC. Please look for another example.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:58 am
  

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When upgrading a weapon, it is assumed (common sense) that any requirements to maintain the weapon's performance at that level are also upgraded.

If you double the damage with a Mega upgrade, it is assumed that the weapon can either create or generate the power to fire such a powerful weapon... there is no need to upgrade the power source/manufacturing capability as it is assumed to be included in the cost.

If you upgrade the range of a weapon with the Omni upgrade, it is assumed that the additional power needed to get a shot to that range is included in the cost. You don't need to buy another upgrade to supply more power to the weapon.

So why do you assume that upgrading the Omega Blaster is any exception to this? You say it is common sense that making it fire faster will require more power... but then you come to the illogical conclusion that to supply that additional power you need to buy a totally different upgrade as well. Why don't we need to buy additional power to allow for more damage or to increase the range (especially for things like a casting gun where you would need more power to fire a casting shell further)?

No, any additional power requirements that a given weapon may need to perform with a given upgrade is included as part of the cost of that upgrade. This is common sense. If it wasn't like this, it would be spelled out in the book that one needs to purchase additional power to allow upgraded weapons to fire at their new performance levels.

I must admit that I am impressed by your ability to take what is written and bend their meaning to suit whatever interpretation you have concocted... even when there is nothing in the game that would even suggest you are right. Brian VanHoose and other rule lawyers around the world would be proud of you.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:39 pm
  

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Palladin

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Razorwing wrote:
When upgrading a weapon, it is assumed (common sense) that any requirements to maintain the weapon's performance at that level are also upgraded.

Let's examine this assumption when looking at some other weapons.

page 106 Viral Immobilizer: firing as often as possible, you can sustain fire for 12 melees (or 3 minutes). If you get the Super upgrade, you can NOT automatically maintain that performance. Firing at double that max rate, you will deplete your ammo in 6 melees (or 1.5 minutes).

Razorwing wrote:
If you double the damage with a Mega upgrade, it is assumed that the weapon can either create or generate the power to fire such a powerful weapon... there is no need to upgrade the power source/manufacturing capability as it is assumed to be included in the cost.

Doubled damage is not necessarily due to a higher energy input, but rather due to a more sophisticated weapon.

We can see this with E-clips and rifles. If you multiply the damage-per-shot by the payload you do not get a fixed amount of MD dice per E-clip. The damage you get from the energy put into the weapon varies based on the sophistication of the weapon.

So I can view the Ultra upgrade as a more sophisticated energy>damage conversion, not due to pumping in more energy.

Razorwing wrote:
If you upgrade the range of a weapon with the Omni upgrade, it is assumed that the additional power needed to get a shot to that range is included in the cost. You don't need to buy another upgrade to supply more power to the weapon.
Again, no, having a longer range does not mean a weapon consumes more energy. If you look at rifles that often use the same E-clips as pistols, they can sometimes attain a longer range (even when talking about the same kind of energy, like lasers) while managing to get as many or even possible MORE shots. Splicers does not have many tech weapons to notice this, but it is observable in Rifts where a wider variety is available.

Razorwing wrote:
You say it is common sense that making it fire faster will require more power...

No, more specifically firing more SHOTS consumes more power.

Razorwing wrote:
you come to the illogical conclusion that to supply that additional power you need to buy a totally different upgrade as well.
That is not illogical, the Ultra upgrade increases the payload (stored energy) and the payload regeneration rate.

Razorwing wrote:
Why don't we need to buy additional power to allow for more damage or to increase the range (especially for things like a casting gun where you would need more power to fire a casting shell further)?

This is because you do not need more power to fire a higher-damage shot or a longer-range shot. I do not even have to go outside Splicers to show you an example of this, we can just look at the machine's tech weapons (which Technojackers love).

Page 63 shows two laser rifles which use Heavy E-Clips. The lasers both have identical ranges.

The Robot Pulse-Laser Assault Rifle gets 48 single shots per clip and only does an average of 7MD with them.
The Robot Laser & Grenade Assault Rifle gets 78 single shots per clip and does an average of 10.5MD with them.

So here we have 2 fixed ranges, 2 fixed E-clips, and yet compared to the pulse rifle, the grenade rifle is able to get 150% damage per shot and over 150% as many shots. So you can get more damage with less energy per shot, sophisticated weaponry, THAT is how I figure these upgrades work.

We can also see this with organic weapons by comparing on page 133 the Heavy Bio-Energy Rifle and the Light Bio-Energy Pistol. They have the same payloads and same damage, but the Rifle gets way better range. Not due to expending more energy to get that range, but simply due to being a superior and more efficient weapon, one which retains accuracy and cohesiveness for a longer distance with the same energy expenditure of a pistol. The bulk is put to work refining that energy.

Razorwing wrote:
any additional power requirements that a given weapon may need to perform with a given upgrade is included as part of the cost of that upgrade. This is common sense.
I believe my breakdown of the Viral Immobilizer contradicts your assumption. Oddly, the VA and Omni-Blaster appear to be the only ranged weapons with a fixed number of uses per melee. It seems like the majority of ranged weapons would only benefit from an MDC boost from the Super upgrade.

Razorwing wrote:
If it wasn't like this, it would be spelled out in the book that one needs to purchase additional power to allow upgraded weapons to fire at their new performance levels.

Considering how few weapons have a limited firing rate that could be enhanced by Super, it is an understandable oversight. Since it says that Ultra can be purchased for the Omni-Blaster, which increased payload and payload-regen, this implies strongly to me that Omni-Blasters have a payload and a payload-regeneration rate.

While we do not know the upper limit of what that is, we do know the lower limit, which is a payload of 1, and a regeneration rate of 1/melee. It has to be that to be effectively unlimited in its natural form.

It is possible it may be higher than that, of course.

If it has a payload of 2 and a regeneration rate of 2/melee then we could assume that a Super-Omni-Cannon or a Dual(non-Super) Omni Cannon could fire without penalty...

But in that case you would need to buy the Ultra upgrade at least to support a double-Super-OmniCannon. In that case I would assume the Ultra applies to the overall set of both weapons.

That's probably a good compromise for us, necessitating the Ultra upgrade if you want to fire 4 shots per melee, but perhaps not require it to fire 2 shots per melee (whether that is 1 super Cannon or 2 normal cannons)

Razorwing wrote:
there is nothing in the game that would even suggest you are right.

Excepting the text which tells us people can build Ultra Omni-Cannons, which suggests there is a purpose in doing so.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:22 am
  

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Just a note.....The example says that you can GET the Ultra upgrade sure. It didn't say that the upgrade would DO anything, just that you could get it. Worlds most expensive status symbol.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:55 am
  

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I know, that's why I said 'suggests there is a purpose' rather than 'declares there is one' :)

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:02 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
I know, that's why I said 'suggests there is a purpose' rather than 'declares there is one' :)

I think the purpose is "look at me I pimped my ride." I am with the rest of the people here who say that doubling the amount of ammunition you have, for something with no ammo limits is otherwise pointless.
HOWEVER, it may in the future be a prerequisite for some OTHER ability, in which case it may well be worth while to buy, even though the base power provides no game benefits in and of itself.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:18 pm
  

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That's why I propose, to give it the purpose it is implied to have, that we do assume the limit is that of the base firing rate and that going beyond it gives penalties per the Bio-blaster.

This would be so much easier if Ultra did something similar to Super and gave a small MDC bonus, then I could assume it was just to get that :)

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:34 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
That's why I propose, to give it the purpose it is implied to have, that we do assume the limit is that of the base firing rate and that going beyond it gives penalties per the Bio-blaster.

This would be so much easier if Ultra did something similar to Super and gave a small MDC bonus, then I could assume it was just to get that :)

So what you want is to give Ultra a new bonus in addition to the official one in the book, so that it now has a purpose for a hypothetical combination that has no explicit actual use? (just trying to be clear here)

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:25 pm
  

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I'm lamenting that Bellaire did not, but sure, let it add 1 MDC to the weapon, then it does something.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:15 pm
  

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It doubles the ammunition of a weapon. If the weapon has no ammunition, spend bio-e on something else.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:57 pm
  

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The book spent it on that though, so I divine it must have a holy purpose, and that be, to support the Super, for t'is not TRULY unlimited, only 'effectively' in its basic form, not in future forms.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:50 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
The book spent it on that though, so I divine it must have a holy purpose, and that be, to support the Super, for t'is not TRULY unlimited, only 'effectively' in its basic form, not in future forms.

No the book did NOT spend it on that though. The book said that you could spend that there is a difference. The options that a player chooses do not have to make sense, or even be useful to be legal. I as a player can choose to spend points in totally useless ways.....this it turns out, is one of them (so far though if a FUTURE modification needs it as a perquisite then it might be useful).

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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:08 pm
  

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What about the Opti- upgrade?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:52 pm
  

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That's simple enough. Since far as I know it has no custom critical range, I think it just means (assuming 1 purchase) that you get double on natural 19 in addition to 20.

That MIGHT change depending on whether criticals from HtH skills apply to bio-weapons, not sure on that.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:23 pm
  

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Comment: THE SPLICE MUST FLOW!!!
Tor wrote:
That's simple enough. Since far as I know it has no custom critical range, I think it just means (assuming 1 purchase) that you get double on natural 19 in addition to 20.

That MIGHT change depending on whether criticals from HtH skills apply to bio-weapons, not sure on that.

1) Your assessment is correct.
2) Hand to Hand crit range would apply to melee weapons.

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Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:
I'm not sure if its possible, but if it isn't, then possible will just have to get over it.

Ninjabunny wrote:
You are playing to have fun and be a part of a story,no one is aiming to "beat" the GM, nor should any GM be looking to beat his players.

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The Shameless Plug would be a good new account name for you. 8-)

ALAshbaugh wrote:
Because DINOSAURS.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:55 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: If you have something to say, back it up with thoughts and reasons. Simply posting to agree or disagree tends to be a waste.
What, no arrows...

I thought modern was the only exception to HtH benefit and bio-weapons aint modern.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:44 am
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:45 pm
Posts: 10834
Location: Working on getting Splicers more support!!!
Comment: THE SPLICE MUST FLOW!!!
Arrows get pp strike bonuses and wp

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Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:
I'm not sure if its possible, but if it isn't, then possible will just have to get over it.

Ninjabunny wrote:
You are playing to have fun and be a part of a story,no one is aiming to "beat" the GM, nor should any GM be looking to beat his players.

Marrowlight wrote:
The Shameless Plug would be a good new account name for you. 8-)

ALAshbaugh wrote:
Because DINOSAURS.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:54 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:59 pm
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Location: Snoqualmie, WA
So maybe ultra could make it so it only takes two actions to fire. Grab ahold of both plates and rip em open, one action. Fire action two. Its silly that opening two takes two actions, does it take both hands to open one? Maybe ultra makes the two protective plates one larger plate.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:15 pm
  

Palladin

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the action to open the cover is assumed, based on the thing that inspired it. strictly speaking, i can't recall any rules reference to support the "action to open, action to fire" rule... it could simply be that it takes an action to charge the weapon, for example, and having a second omega blaster might not double the capacity to charge up the weapon.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:19 pm
  

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Monk

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Shark_Force wrote:
the action to open the cover is assumed, based on the thing that inspired it. strictly speaking, i can't recall any rules reference to support the "action to open, action to fire" rule... it could simply be that it takes an action to charge the weapon, for example, and having a second omega blaster might not double the capacity to charge up the weapon.

Uh one only takes two actions. If it was based on the Guyver's Mega Beam Smasher, that inspired it would be one action to open and one to fire, but by RAW, opening the second one takes an additional action and then they can be simultaneously fired.

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:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper

BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid

Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus

The Zer0 of Kay, who started this fray,
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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:38 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:37 pm
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Comment: If you have something to say, back it up with thoughts and reasons. Simply posting to agree or disagree tends to be a waste.
I find the whole double-barreled Omega thing pretty confusing, like why would you have 2 plates for 1 cannon but still 2 plates for 2... and if they fire as 1 blast then not sure why it would cost 2 actions, unless it is kind of like a charging-pause like winding up for a power-punch.

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