Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionics?

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Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionics?

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

Why does Kevin hate players being able to heal during an adventure? Why do healing spells and psionics do such a piddling amount of SDC/MDC and hit point for the cost?
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

SpiritInterface wrote:Why does Kevin hate players being able to heal during an adventure? Why do healing spells and psionics do such a piddling amount of SDC/MDC and hit point for the cost?


Heck, most don't even heal MDC at all.

No idea why. I've often wondered it myself.
On one hand, in early Rifts the only thing keeping squishy humans alive in a MD fight was their MDC armor, and if that got breached, Healing isn't what they'd need.
A magic spell to conjure a squeegee and bucket would be more help for most people.

But on the other hands...
-There were non-squishy humans who might survive low-level MD, like Juicers and Crazies, and there are many more since then.
-There were MDC non-humans such as dragons, and it's not like dragons never use magic spells; it's part of their whole deal. Why the heck wouldn't dragons have made a few spells for healing other dragons? Sure, they have bio-regeneration, but not enough to always cure all damage in time.
And there have been other MDC playable races for decades now, virtually all of whom would benefit from better healing spells.
-The original idea behind magic inflicting mega-damage on Rifts Earth was that the ley lines supercharged magic to incredible levels of unfathomable power!!!
But only some spells, and only when it comes to damage, for unknown reasons of writer/editor decision.
I don't see why a damage spell would be boosted roughly 100x, but a healing spell wouldn't be.
Since most SDC characters weren't likely to take SDC damage all that often in the first place, what would the harm have been in just letting a basic spell/power healing 100x the non-Rifts amount?

I've never thought to ask Kevin, and I can't think of ever hearing anybody else ask him.
It's a good question.

But I can see no good reason not to houserule healing magic to be brought up to the same power levels as damage magic.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Some of it, I think, comes from inflation of available HP and SDC. When your base HP are 3d6+1d6/level, 2d6 per casting, or 1d8 per touch, isn't that bad, especially if you anticipate a cap of of about 12d6 HP (3d6 for PE, plus 9 levels).

But, once you get past PFRPG Revised, you get personal SDC, and that doesn't get much attention or accounting, meaning that even the 1d6 HP & 3D6 SDC from the 5th level spell Heal Wounds is a pittance, especially if you've got significant class or race SDC, or a lot of physical skills. In Rifts, even a "normal" man at arms (CS, Glitterboy, Headhunter; Man at Arms OCC without an SDC bonus) is going to have 40+ SDC, so you're burning 40 PPE to heal them (10 PPE per Heal Wounds spell, average of 10.5 SDC, so 4 castings to get 42 SDC cured).

I've also noted a reluctance in some older games (and older gamers, of whom Kevin can be considered) to have good tactical healing... i.e. "Healing that will happen quickly and maintain someone during a fight." Healing spells tend to be relatively limited in power, and Palladium really likes the long meditation times for psionic healing (1e PFRPG had a 10 minute meditation to get 2d6 HP for yourself, with no healing touch for non-healers). When rounds transitioned from a minute to 15 seconds each, healing times often stayed at per-minute.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Mark Hall wrote:Some of it, I think, comes from inflation of available HP and SDC. When your base HP are 3d6+1d6/level, 2d6 per casting, or 1d8 per touch, isn't that bad, especially if you anticipate a cap of of about 12d6 HP (3d6 for PE, plus 9 levels).

But, once you get past PFRPG Revised, you get personal SDC, and that doesn't get much attention or accounting, meaning that even the 1d6 HP & 3D6 SDC from the 5th level spell Heal Wounds is a pittance, especially if you've got significant class or race SDC, or a lot of physical skills. In Rifts, even a "normal" man at arms (CS, Glitterboy, Headhunter; Man at Arms OCC without an SDC bonus) is going to have 40+ SDC, so you're burning 40 PPE to heal them (10 PPE per Heal Wounds spell, average of 10.5 SDC, so 4 castings to get 42 SDC cured).

I've also noted a reluctance in some older games (and older gamers, of whom Kevin can be considered) to have good tactical healing... i.e. "Healing that will happen quickly and maintain someone during a fight." Healing spells tend to be relatively limited in power, and Palladium really likes the long meditation times for psionic healing (1e PFRPG had a 10 minute meditation to get 2d6 HP for yourself, with no healing touch for non-healers). When rounds transitioned from a minute to 15 seconds each, healing times often stayed at per-minute.


Good points and insights.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Mack »

One of the better healing "spells" is actually the Death Touch tattoo. Compared to the others, the healing function is pretty efficient and effective... which kind of proves your point. When a pretty good healing ability is buried in a tattoo meant for killing, it says something about other ways to heal.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

Mark Hall wrote:Some of it, I think, comes from inflation of available HP and SDC. When your base HP are 3d6+1d6/level, 2d6 per casting, or 1d8 per touch, isn't that bad, especially if you anticipate a cap of of about 12d6 HP (3d6 for PE, plus 9 levels).

But, once you get past PFRPG Revised, you get personal SDC, and that doesn't get much attention or accounting, meaning that even the 1d6 HP & 3D6 SDC from the 5th level spell Heal Wounds is a pittance, especially if you've got significant class or race SDC, or a lot of physical skills. In Rifts, even a "normal" man at arms (CS, Glitterboy, Headhunter; Man at Arms OCC without an SDC bonus) is going to have 40+ SDC, so you're burning 40 PPE to heal them (10 PPE per Heal Wounds spell, average of 10.5 SDC, so 4 castings to get 42 SDC cured).

I've also noted a reluctance in some older games (and older gamers, of whom Kevin can be considered) to have good tactical healing... i.e. "Healing that will happen quickly and maintain someone during a fight." Healing spells tend to be relatively limited in power, and Palladium really likes the long meditation times for psionic healing (1e PFRPG had a 10 minute meditation to get 2d6 HP for yourself, with no healing touch for non-healers). When rounds transitioned from a minute to 15 seconds each, healing times often stayed at per-minute.


All good points but it doesn't address systems like Heroes Unlimited, BTS, where you might want healing so that your player characters doesn't have to spend weeks healing up in-between encounters.
Last edited by SpiritInterface on Tue Jan 17, 2023 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by jaymz »

I'd rather address the larger albino elephant in the room...

Why is magic, be it spells and classes, so "meh" once compared to everything else in pretty much every setting outside of Palladium Fantasy?

Because it is.

It doesn't matter how much Kevin or other's that are close "fan-friends" try to wax on about how "magic is the great equalizer" or how they write fiction portraying it. Playing it proves it is not that great equalizer and never really has been since pre RMB days.

RMB...the "powerful" Ley Line Walker could only cast 2 low level spells per melee.....(granted originally they did not get a HTH skill by default and now they do).

"Attack" spells are barely equal to SDC firearms in SDC settings and very much lacking in MDC settings typically.
"Defensive" spells are largely mediocre.
"Healing" has been addressed pretty well so far.
"Everything Else" is very hit and miss in regards to effectiveness or even being able to cast because of such limited PPE reserves to do so.

From every angle magic is just "meh" in Palladium games as written.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

I guess the question is how do you define "hate" healing spells and Psionics.

I can certainly agree there are limited options in terms of healing spells, but some of them can also be pretty potent in comparison (Restoration and Resurrection) and could be seen as "hate", but at the same time it could also be a balance issue.

Psionics I don't think "hate" is the right word, but they haven't received the same level of additions like Magic gets (even just looking at Invocation and not specialist branches). But a psionic healer can heal pretty fast and assist in healing with the right powers, combine that with meditation and you've got a potential healing machine.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by killgore444 »

So much of it comes down to the desire to keep everything compatible across the games. And since magic is powerful in PFRPG, therefor it MUST be equally powerful in Rifts without modifying it. Right?! Not really, no, I am aware. But I do think that is a large part of the problem. Magics improvement hasn't scaled at the same rate as technologies has in the game.

Taking a high tech item from Rifts into PF has a built in limiter of ammunition and/or battery pack. Taking advanced magic from Rifts or HU does not. That's what I THINK is going on to an extent.

Of course there is nothing preventing anyone from setting up a trade rift between worlds. A Shifter and a couple of Operators setting up a firearms center in the Eastern Territories would give the game a very different fell I think. Which would quickly lead to a shift in the balance of power between technology and magic there as well. And unlike Rifts (which has magic universities that specialize in research), the whole thing about Wizards being loners with only an apprentice or 2 is an actual thing here.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by jaymz »

Except spells automatically downgrade when going to pf. In fact it's effectively all the same spells in all the games.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by killgore444 »

jaymz wrote:Except spells automatically downgrade when going to pf. In fact it's effectively all the same spells in all the games.

Magic downgrades because of the nonMDC environment (same as it does in HU and DR). But technology and psionics also downgrade by an equal amount. It upgrades in MDC worlds such as Robotech or Splicers irregardless of magic level.

Meanwhile, while tech goes through the same downgrade, it's functions remain the same. Taking a MDC blaster to PFRPG will drop it to an SDC blaster, but it will still have the same range, RoF, and number of shots. Comparitively speaking, magic is actually BETTER in PFRPG for being SDC than in Rifts even though spell casters there get on average 150% of the PPE and more special abilities. Their ability to inflict damage and hold there own against foes is higher. Although outside tech would have an affect with this. HU tech would actually have a greater impact than Rifts would. HU is already SDC and has a higher damage potential there then Rifts tech downgraded from MDC (a rifle there that does 2d4 MDC would only do 2d4 SDC while a HU rifle will do 3d6 to 7d6). Not to mention it'd be easier to set up manufacturing for 1980s-1990s tech than it would be for Rifts tech.

But it's much more likely that magic will be traded across games. Many players (and GMs) will freely adopt and import spells across games. Not so with tech.

And any system of magic designed to hold it's own against the tech of Rifts would find that while it was downgraded to SDC, in every other category it still matched Rifts, which in order to be equal, would be devastatingly powerful in PFRPG. It's even worse for magic designed to be equal to superpowers and the tech of HU. Since there would be no downgrade in damage, everything about the new magic would stay the same, and utterly destroy the medieval landlords and nobility in the oh so fancy (and now useless) armor. :demon:

Take some of the suggestions I've seen for communication spells for instance. Magic Pidgin is one of the best ways to communicate over distance in PFRPG. In Rifts, where nearly everyone has radios, or heaven forbid, the modern world where everyone has cell phones, the spell is nearly useless as anything other than a prank. Any spell designed to mimic the awesome power of radios and cell phones would be unthinkable in PF and world altering in scope and power. :eek:

Setting up the magical equivalent of the internet would be far again beyond even that. :thwak:

I'm not defending the way magic works, or saying it doesn't need a revamp (it REALLY does), just trying to explain what I think is going on. :ugh:
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by jaymz »

I already pointed out above that it's fine pf.

And if that happens to be why's severaly lacking elsewhere then kevin was just lazy.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by killgore444 »

jaymz wrote:I already pointed out above that it's fine pf.

And if that happens to be why's severaly lacking elsewhere then kevin was just lazy.

Sorry, I thought you meant that they downgrade more than just dropping MDC to SDC.

And as someone who's currently trying to type up a bunch of old spell designs from paper notebooks to computer to post, I have to say I understand the impulse to copy/paste when it's an option.
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Made worse by having to try and figure out where I/we got the idea for the spell and decide if it's a variation of a canon spell (are we allowed to post those),merely inspired from another source or a flat out conversion (which I know isn't allowed). Since the way magic works in PBs IS different enough from other systems, there really isn't that many actual conversions. But I did take a lot of ideas from other sources and have always hated that it's nearly impossible to get any lasting affects from magic in PBs unless it's simple damage.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by taalismn »

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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

jaymz wrote:I'd rather address the larger albino elephant in the room...

Why is magic, be it spells and classes, so "meh" once compared to everything else in pretty much every setting outside of Palladium Fantasy?

Because it is.

It doesn't matter how much Kevin or other's that are close "fan-friends" try to wax on about how "magic is the great equalizer" or how they write fiction portraying it. Playing it proves it is not that great equalizer and never really has been since pre RMB days.

RMB...the "powerful" Ley Line Walker could only cast 2 low level spells per melee.....(granted originally they did not get a HTH skill by default and now they do).

"Attack" spells are barely equal to SDC firearms in SDC settings and very much lacking in MDC settings typically.
"Defensive" spells are largely mediocre.
"Healing" has been addressed pretty well so far.
"Everything Else" is very hit and miss in regards to effectiveness or even being able to cast because of such limited PPE reserves to do so.

From every angle magic is just "meh" in Palladium games as written.


To me, it's kind of strange to want Magic to be "equal" to Technology, as opposed to an extra ability above and beyond technology.
One of the things that drew me to Rifts in the first place was that mages weren't stuck wearing robes and chucking darts at people like D&D; they could use the same armor and weapons as anybody else, because why wouldn't they be able to other than arbitrary attempts at game-balance that made no real in-game sense.
Being able to cast 2 spells per melee was 2 more spells than most people got.
Granted, because the casting descriptions were vague it didn't occur to us that casting a spell would cost 1/2 of your melee attacks; we assumed casting still took one attack, there was just a limit on how many you could do. So a person with 3 attacks could cast two spells, then draw a weapon or punch somebody or throw a grenade or whatever.

Anyway, for me turning magic and tech into a game of "anything you can do, I can do too" turns each into just a kind of different skin for the same effect.
I don't want Armor of Ithan to be equal to EBA, and I don't want Fire Ball to be the same as a heavy laser rifle, only with different special effects for the same stats.

I see the main advantages of magic being that you don't have to rely on gear, with that advantage is balanced out by the fact that the effects often aren't as good, and the advantage that magic can do a bunch of stuff tech can't, like conjure storms and demons and such.

Basically, I see complaints that magic isn't equal to firearms as complaints "why can't this character do with his bare hands and a few words, the same kind of damage at the same range as another character can do with a decent gun?"
I don't get the issue.
One guy has a gun. The other has just his bare hands and a few words.
Why should they be equal?
The entire point of tools as a thing is that they make work easier and more effective, so magic or not it makes sense to me that the guy with the tools is going to be more effective all-else-being-equal than the guy without.

Similarly--getting back to the topic--I think we should keep in mind that magical healing is usually a heck of a lot better than going to a hospital, which only heals 2 HP per day for the first two days and four per each following day, plus six SDC per day.
Something as simple and low-powered as the psionic power Healing Touch can heal in 2 minutes what would take DAYS to heal in a hospital, using some of the best drugs and tech money can buy.
Granted, I still think it'd have made more sense to have healing boosted by as much as damage when it comes to psi and magic and such, but still, it's definitely better than going without it.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by jaymz »

"Anyway, for me turning magic and tech into a game of "anything you can do, I can do too" "

Then Kevin needs to stop trying to play it up as such and stop having classes literallyvsay they won't use tech because they feel magic etc is better when it's clearly not.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by killgore444 »

Killer Cyborg wrote:To me, it's kind of strange to want Magic to be "equal" to Technology, as opposed to an extra ability above and beyond technology.

At issue here is the number of people who think that spell casters shouldn't use technology. On this very board, there are several threads dedicated to harping on the fact that Ley Line Walkers will use a gun 6 out of 7 times rather than his spells. One of the most egregious to me personally was the one where the poster was complaining that LLWs were wearing armor instead of the robes depicted in the art. He actually said "Why aren't they following the rules and wearing what they're supposed to." He thought it was a RULE that spell casters had to have zero fashion sense. And never mind the first spell caster depicted by PBs outside of the PFRPG was wearing a 3 piece suit (he had a cape as well, but I'm pretty sure that was a cult leader thing not wizard fashion). I seriously wondered if it was worth the hit to resurrect a very dead thread just to lambast them. I figured the thread would be locked fast enough that I would have gotten the last word before the lock and they wouldn't have been able to reply (assuming most of them even come here anymore). But I didn't think it was a good idea, no matter how funny it would have been.

Kevin Siembieda has done a wonderful job of producing a fun game system. I don't like all of his decisions by any stretch (I am so F***ing DONE with the CS), but over all, he's done a good job. But he's allowed into print, to many things that screw spell casters over and make technology just absolutely trump magic in nearly every aspect. Just look at spell design vs technological innovation. Not only do spell casters have a r*****ly low chance of being able to learn basic, low level spells out of the book, but even if they succeed they have to roll again with NO modifiers (complete luck) a mere 20% chance they don't get r**med. The chances of getting anything new or higher level might as well say "Don't Bother" in the book rather than allow any spell caster to get his hopes up.

Meanwhile, almost every single OCC that has anything to do with scientific or technological innovation, doesn't even have to roll dice.They just have to figure out the time frame. And the time frame improves when they work together. Which is something spell casters are BARRED from doing. Repeatedly. And never mind that there are magic schools, guilds and universities that are built around magic innovation, the casters inside aren't allowed to cooperate because some a**hat said that casters weren't capable of over coming their ego and working together without backstabbing each other (I guess all casters are limited to anarchist or evil alignments now as well).

He has got to start giving reasons that the many pure magic societies he's put into the games have survived. He's got to stop hyping the CS (and start highlighting weaknesses to work against them). I hated the Tolkien wars books, but at least he got it right, no magic society can beat even a single city of the CS the way magic is written.

I actually agree with most of what you said, don't get me wrong, I DO agree with you. But the perception endorsed by Kevin Siembieda in print, does not support your view, and that perception needs to change. Every time there is a new technology book, there should be a new magic book. And not just a bunch of new OCCs and PCCs that require you to change characters to get anything new. And not just rehashes of the same old techno-magic with a new look. But new invocations that the core spell casting OCCs can learn and use. If they're going to stick with the idiotic no armor rule, at least make magic spells that provide armor last more than a couple of minutes. Say 1 hour per level instead of 2 melees per level or something. Have spells that increase comfort that last long enough to bother casting. Have spells that have long term or even permanent affects. Why isn't there a version of wall of stone that just shapes stone into a wall and leaves it? Hell, start publishing NON-combat spells. Or allow spell casters to enchant magic items (that's something OD&D, AD&D and D&D 3rd did a thousand times better than PBs).

And do something that will allow casters to overcome psionics! Stealth spells against the CS are absolutely pointless. Everyone always harps on a casters ability to remain hidden. I ask: "HOW?!" Between thousands of Dogboys and Psi-Stalkers in the RMB alone, not to mention the Nega-psychic or the Psi-nullifier and numerous other classes along these lines from other books, how can a caster remain unseen. They can almost all see through any stealth spell. And ALL of the ones available before 6th level. And let's not forget the stalker gets that whole magic drain thing. Did PBs say that the stalker drains 1d6 per level? No. Did they say they drain 2d6 per level? No. Did they have any sort of set amount or random roll whatsoever? No, no they did not. They said a SINGLE hit will drain the caster of ALL PPE. No defense. None at all. No saving throw, no shield, no spell or anything to make you immune. NOTHING! Nothing except for full environmental armor, which the caster is no longer allowed to wear. That is something that also needs to be addressed in and of itself.

But they won't. They just continue to harp on this idiotic claim that magic is already equal, and you're just not playing them right when there's no way to follow their own rules and have a caster who can survive. :frust: At least not if you have a GM that follows the actual rules.

jaymz wrote:Then Kevin needs to stop trying to play it up as such and stop having classes literallyvsay they won't use tech because they feel magic etc is better when it's clearly not.

Agree 100% with you here.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Library Ogre »

SpiritInterface wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:I've also noted a reluctance in some older games (and older gamers, of whom Kevin can be considered) to have good tactical healing... i.e. "Healing that will happen quickly and maintain someone during a fight." Healing spells tend to be relatively limited in power, and Palladium really likes the long meditation times for psionic healing (1e PFRPG had a 10 minute meditation to get 2d6 HP for yourself, with no healing touch for non-healers). When rounds transitioned from a minute to 15 seconds each, healing times often stayed at per-minute.


All good points but it doesn't address systems like Heroes Unlimited, BTS, where you might want healing so that your player characters doesn't have to spend weeks healing up in-between encounters.


It does, when you consider the same person wrote all of them. Kevin's preferences shape all of Palladium's games, to a greater or lesser extent.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

jaymz wrote:"Anyway, for me turning magic and tech into a game of "anything you can do, I can do too" "

Then Kevin needs to stop trying to play it up as such and stop having classes literallyvsay they won't use tech because they feel magic etc is better when it's clearly not.


There was that essay in the BoM that made the argument that mages should use magic instead of tech, kind of.
And I agree that was nonsense.

Last I checked, though, very few magic classes start with magic items, and virtually all of them start with tech items.

I can agree that Palladium does send mixed messages on this issue.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

killgore444 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:To me, it's kind of strange to want Magic to be "equal" to Technology, as opposed to an extra ability above and beyond technology.

At issue here is the number of people who think that spell casters shouldn't use technology.


Yup.
I never got that take.
I was overjoyed to play mages who COULD use tech.

Kevin Siembieda has done a wonderful job of producing a fun game system. I don't like all of his decisions by any stretch (I am so F***ing DONE with the CS), but over all, he's done a good job. But he's allowed into print, to many things that screw spell casters over and make technology just absolutely trump magic in nearly every aspect. Just look at spell design vs technological innovation. Not only do spell casters have a r*****ly low chance of being able to learn basic, low level spells out of the book, but even if they succeed they have to roll again with NO modifiers (complete luck) a mere 20% chance they don't get r**med. The chances of getting anything new or higher level might as well say "Don't Bother" in the book rather than allow any spell caster to get his hopes up.

Meanwhile, almost every single OCC that has anything to do with scientific or technological innovation, doesn't even have to roll dice.
They just have to figure out the time frame. And the time frame improves when they work together.
Which is something spell casters are BARRED from doing. Repeatedly. And never mind that there are magic schools, guilds and universities that are built around magic innovation, the casters inside aren't allowed to cooperate because some a**hat said that casters weren't capable of over coming their ego and working together without backstabbing each other (I guess all casters are limited to anarchist or evil alignments now as well).


What kinds of things are you referring to with the bolded portion?
I'm also not sure what you're referring to about casters not being able to "cooperate." Do you mean "teaching each other spells free of charge?"

He has got to start giving reasons that the many pure magic societies he's put into the games have survived. He's got to stop hyping the CS (and start highlighting weaknesses to work against them). I hated the Tolkien wars books, but at least he got it right, no magic society can beat even a single city of the CS the way magic is written.


I feel like he's given reasons why the magic societies have survived, and that the CS has plenty of weaknesses.
And I've seen many people make the opposite argument over the decades, that KS hasn't done enough to justify the CS's survival when it's clear (to them) that the magical communities would have destroyed the CS by now.
I mean, there are countless threads where people argue that Tolkeen should have WON against the CS, not just "survived and held the CS off," but actually defeated the CS.

I actually agree with most of what you said, don't get me wrong, I DO agree with you.


Thank you!
Always nice to hear. A lot of the time, people (myself included) get so caught up in arguing on points of disagreement that they neglect to state the points of agreement.
:ok:

But the perception endorsed by Kevin Siembieda in print, does not support your view, and that perception needs to change. Every time there is a new technology book, there should be a new magic book. And not just a bunch of new OCCs and PCCs that require you to change characters to get anything new. And not just rehashes of the same old techno-magic with a new look. But new invocations that the core spell casting OCCs can learn and use. If they're going to stick with the idiotic no armor rule, at least make magic spells that provide armor last more than a couple of minutes. Say 1 hour per level instead of 2 melees per level or something. Have spells that increase comfort that last long enough to bother casting. Have spells that have long term or even permanent affects. Why isn't there a version of wall of stone that just shapes stone into a wall and leaves it? Hell, start publishing NON-combat spells. Or allow spell casters to enchant magic items (that's something OD&D, AD&D and D&D 3rd did a thousand times better than PBs).


The Mage Armor rule should go away, and should have never been made in the first place.
IF it stays, it'd be nice if we had better parameters to work with when it comes to deciding what mages CAN wear.
I mean, there's Ley Line Walker Concealed Armor in the RUE LLW section, but no other classes mention special armor.
We can guess that they all wear LLW Concealed, but that's a guess--we were never told, AFAIK.
We know that Ironwood can be used to make wooden armor, but it's never (afaik) been statted.
If the armor was used as an excuse to give mages a bunch of new gear, I'd still complain about it, BUT I agree that it'd make more sense.

Barring that, yeah, Armor spells that can last most or all of a day would be nice.
Or just say Screw It and rule that mages are all MDC creatures. That'd be a bit much, but hey... when's that stopped Rifts from turning stuff Mega-Damage?
#MDCbears

And I share your frustration with stuff like the Wall of Stone spell. There should be permanent options for stuff like that, although things could get out of hand if it was TOO easy.
And you're preaching to the choir with non-combat spells!
I've pointed out myself in the past that direct combat is generally the weakest area of magic, AND that mages are supposed to use their brains instead of blasting stuff (according to Kev, and the BOM essay the one guy wrote, and so forth), and yet the large majority of spells are all just variations of "imma blast it."
I'm definitely with you there.

And I think the problem with all this stuff comes down to the nature of Palladium, which (from my outsider perspective) seems to be that they publish books which are written by essentially random Rifts players based on their own interests, without necessarily any real concern for setting consistency, balance in classes, balance between tech/magic/psionics/etc., and so forth.
There are projects that KS wants and has planned, like the Siege on Tolkeen, but sometimes those don't go exactly like he planned.
Mostly, it seems like what we get is somebody who writes a book about Japan or whatever, whether or not it makes a lot of sense, whether or not it makes for good balance, and Palladium accepts or rejects it based on kewlness factor combined with whatever tinkering KS wants to do to the book along the way.

Which isn't a great way to have the kind of comprehensive balance that you'd like.

If I was running Palladium, I'd have LONG ago come up with some underlying core rules to what kinds of things show up in the game, some kinds of rules for writers to use when making new tech, new magic, and so forth.

Instead we just get more or less random stuff based on what people happen to write, when filtered through what Kevin happens to be interested in at the time.
At least, that's my armchair perception.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

killgore444 wrote:Kevin Siembieda has done a wonderful job of producing a fun game system. I don't like all of his decisions by any stretch (I am so F***ing DONE with the CS), but over all, he's done a good job. But he's allowed into print, to many things that screw spell casters over and make technology just absolutely trump magic in nearly every aspect. Just look at spell design vs technological innovation. Not only do spell casters have a r*****ly low chance of being able to learn basic, low level spells out of the book, but even if they succeed they have to roll again with NO modifiers (complete luck) a mere 20% chance they don't get r**med. The chances of getting anything new or higher level might as well say "Don't Bother" in the book rather than allow any spell caster to get his hopes up.


Wait, where do you get that spell casters have a low chance of learning new spells? There is no roll to learn new spells, you just spend the required time.

Yes, spell casters can try to learn magic from a scroll, and this is a shortcut that takes just a few minutes, and the low chance of success is reflective of that. but the % to learn from a scroll is an optional addition to just learning magic the normal way, and most spellcasters don't bother with scroll conversion at all. And the normal rule, according to the book of magic, is just 2 days of study per level of the spell, no randomness involved at all, just need a teacher.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by killgore444 »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
killgore444 wrote:Kevin Siembieda has done a wonderful job of producing a fun game system. I don't like all of his decisions by any stretch (I am so F***ing DONE with the CS), but over all, he's done a good job. But he's allowed into print, to many things that screw spell casters over and make technology just absolutely trump magic in nearly every aspect. Just look at spell design vs technological innovation. Not only do spell casters have a r*****ly low chance of being able to learn basic, low level spells out of the book, but even if they succeed they have to roll again with NO modifiers (complete luck) a mere 20% chance they don't get r**med. The chances of getting anything new or higher level might as well say "Don't Bother" in the book rather than allow any spell caster to get his hopes up.


Wait, where do you get that spell casters have a low chance of learning new spells? There is no roll to learn new spells, you just spend the required time.

Umm... NO!
You get 2 spells per level which MUST be your new level or lower. That's it for automatic learning. Even paying someone to teach you (and that's thousands of credits for low level common spells) does technically require a roll, but unless you GM is TRYING to screw you over, most will skip it.

Everything else follows the really absurd rules first printed in Nightbane 'Through the Glass Darkly' and then modified and reprinted in Mysteries of Magic (hated that book) which also first gave the rule about mages and armor, and then I've seen it again in one of the Rifts books (but I've got most of the old ones and I've long ago started to ignore the rule so forgot which one). Likewise, the scroll conversion chances are listed in several different places.

You essentially have less then a 20% chance of learning a low level spell unless you're high level and if trying to invent a new spell, even if just a variation to an old spell, you have less than a 10% chance and then have to roll again on a separate table to see if it worked even if you made the first roll. :badbad: And if trying for something completely new, your chances are half of that.

In the Nightbane book, the chance of learning a new spell was exactly one tenth of your principles of magic skill. So if you had a PoM of 72%, your chances of learning a new spell was 7%.

Yes, spell casters can try to learn magic from a scroll, and this is a shortcut that takes just a few minutes, and the low chance of success is reflective of that. but the % to learn from a scroll is an optional addition to just learning magic the normal way, and most spellcasters don't bother with scroll conversion at all. And the normal rule, according to the book of magic, is just 2 days of study per level of the spell, no randomness involved at all, just need a teacher.

Again, no. Only the 2 automatic spells per level are like this. Everything else, you need to learn.

My own games, I use the Principles of Magic skill from Nightbane, but ignore the 1/10th rule and make it 30% +3% per level, and that's you base chance with a penalty of +/- 5% per difference in spell level to caster level. Inventing a variant is about half that. Bare in mind, I also use skill modification from Rifter 30, so most casters are actually have much better chances.


Killer Cyborg wrote:
killgore444 wrote: almost every single OCC that has anything to do with scientific or technological innovation, doesn't even have to roll dice.
They just have to figure out the time frame. And the time frame improves when they work together.


What kinds of things are you referring to with the bolded portion?

I'm referring to OCCs like the Triax Research Scientist (as the most egregious) and a couple of others. There is NO skill roll involved. The skill level isn't even relevant to their success. You just work out what level the new piece of technology is, find out how intelligent everyone is (skill level (or even if they have the correct skill) is not a factor) and then work out the formula to find out how long it takes to invent. The more people involved, the faster it goes.

I'm also not sure what you're referring to about casters not being able to "cooperate." Do you mean "teaching each other spells free of charge?"

There are several places throughout the books that make it a point of saying that spell casters are all ego bound lunatics who will never share research or help one another with spell design for fear of losing their edge. It's the justification for the super low chances of success and over priced cost of being taught new spells. Not to mention the justification of so few spells making it to print.

I feel like he's given reasons why the magic societies have survived,

He's stated things a few times, but none of the reasons hold up to game mechanics. Dog-boys and psi-stalkers alone decimate all the reasons he's given. And that's ignoring all the other advanced psychic OCCs that the CS has. How is psi-tech different than techno-magic from the CS PoV? It's like they've forgotten what the game mechanics actually say about DBs and PSs, and then they just make stuff up. :frust:

and that the CS has plenty of weaknesses.

WHERE?!?! Where does anything official exist that give even a single actual weakness of the CS?
The closest I can come up with is that they have to recycle material from battle which didn't come out until Heroes of Humanity. The only thing I liked in that book. Anything else ever mentioned as being a possible weakness is then retconned out (or fanboy argued into oblivion). In the RMB it mentions quite clearly that Mind Melters are NOT allowed into CS territory and are hunted down and killed if the presence is detected (and they have a unique aura), but there are now several books that discuss how many MMs are working in Psi-Bat etc.

So please enlighten me on what is considered a weakness of the CS that is not also a weakness of everyone else (except Atlantis)?

Sorry if I sound hostile, but this has burned me for some time now. When RMB came out, the CS was a fun bit of bogeyman. They were very pointedly described as being like Nazi Germany and/or Russia. I have always portrayed them in that way (although not as bad as RW Russia has shown themselves). Their leader was a tyrant who was never to blame for anything. And every single one of the High Command was almost as bad. Officers would never accept responsibility for mistakes, and just like the real world Japanese from WW2, the officers wouldn't ever bother to debrief their people and just assume they didn't know anything worth while. Look up what several Japanese (and American) pilots said about bio-luminescent algae and the wakes of ships including their carriers if you want to know what I'm talking about.

So yeah, that's how I envisioned them. Worked great. Even the Juicer Uprising hurt that image only a little. And even in that, they were specifically described as being nothing more than a parade force good at looking cool and murdering helpless civilians, and not much else. But then the Coalition Wars book came out, and everything had changed. Suddenly the CS was this hyper-competent death machine that had WAY to many people in the military for their previously listed population. They had this massive leap in technology despite the fact that being able to read was illegal. And on and on. And then Siege of Tolkien happened. I disliked that series so much I stopped buying anything from PBs for several years. I've since gone back and gotten most of the books I missed, but the way it was done seemed like a massive c********* for the CS to me. What could have been a great way to high light how magic could hold it's own, and offer things to magic orientated characters was a horrifying look at how inept Tolkien was. Seriously, they were a society that made ready use of rifts, why didn't they just hire trans-dimensional mercenaries or something? And no options for already existing characters to use, you had to create new characters to get anything from those books (a recurring problem for books on magic).

And I've seen many people make the opposite argument over the decades, that KS hasn't done enough to justify the CS's survival when it's clear (to them) that the magical communities would have destroyed the CS by now.
I mean, there are countless threads where people argue that Tolkeen should have WON against the CS, not just "survived and held the CS off," but actually defeated the CS.

They SHOULD have. All that would be needed is a magic society acting intelligent and making new magic that works and is worthwhile (not to mention uses technology like it's supposed to be used). But PBs is never going to give up their bogeyman for Rifts. In an old campaign, my group used scrolls of Create Ley line and extend ley line to try an create ley line triangles inside the mega-cities of the CS from (extending the lines by over 50 miles away, we weren't IN the cities). I mentioned this on the old board and people went ballistic with how that wouldn't affect the cities and how I was power mongering etc, etc. And then low and behold, a statement that the mega-structure wall resists magic and ley lines can't penetrate. :thwak:

Sorry, need to stop ranting now.

I actually agree with most of what you said, don't get me wrong, I DO agree with you.


Thank you!
Always nice to hear. A lot of the time, people (myself included) get so caught up in arguing on points of disagreement that they neglect to state the points of agreement.
:ok:

I wrote up most of my post forgetting who I was actually responding to until I went back and read what you actually said. I didn't want to delete what I wrote up to that point though. And like I said, I agree with you. It's just that the perception (and game mechanics don't).

The Mage Armor rule should go away, and should have never been made in the first place.
IF it stays, it'd be nice if we had better parameters to work with when it comes to deciding what mages CAN wear.

Or ways around it like my proficiency idea.
Barring that, yeah, Armor spells that can last most or all of a day would be nice.
Or just say Screw It and rule that mages are all MDC creatures. That'd be a bit much, but hey... when's that stopped Rifts from turning stuff Mega-Damage?
#MDCbears

I once experimented with the idea that casters could exchange PPE for MDC when hit with MDC weapons, but ultimately decided it didn't work. Although making ANYONE who has magic into MDC life forms is a funny idea. It would be a very tangible advantage casters had over the CS, and would go a long way in making sense of why the CS hates casters so much.

And I share your frustration with stuff like the Wall of Stone spell. There should be permanent options for stuff like that, although things could get out of hand if it was TOO easy.
And you're preaching to the choir with non-combat spells!

It's NOT just magic BTW. Psionics is not much better (memory wipe requires the permanent sacrifice of 3 ME points by the psychic to make permanent, really). And superpowers are just as bad. The only real examples of non combat usefulness is the ability to survive hostile environments and Control Elemental Force: Earth which gives you the permanent walls of stone.

Ironically, being a Necromancer or a Nightlord from Nightbane are the 2 examples of magic having permanent affects. And both are villains.

I've pointed out myself in the past that direct combat is generally the weakest area of magic, AND that mages are supposed to use their brains instead of blasting stuff (according to Kev, and the BOM essay the one guy wrote, and so forth), and yet the large majority of spells are all just variations of "imma blast it."
I'm definitely with you there.

I know that direct conversions are bad, but so many of the original spells in PFRPG were almost exactly like other games, I wish they'd continue that and start going over the spells other games have created and doing something similar. Just make them spell invocations, not new OCCs.

If I was running Palladium, I'd have LONG ago come up with some underlying core rules to what kinds of things show up in the game, some kinds of rules for writers to use when making new tech, new magic, and so forth.

Instead we just get more or less random stuff based on what people happen to write, when filtered through what Kevin happens to be interested in at the time.
At least, that's my armchair perception.
[/quote]
And unfortunately for me (or fortunately), I know myself well enough to know that if I was running things it would have been run into the ground. :nh:
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

killgore444 wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
killgore444 wrote:Kevin Siembieda has done a wonderful job of producing a fun game system. I don't like all of his decisions by any stretch (I am so F***ing DONE with the CS), but over all, he's done a good job. But he's allowed into print, to many things that screw spell casters over and make technology just absolutely trump magic in nearly every aspect. Just look at spell design vs technological innovation. Not only do spell casters have a r*****ly low chance of being able to learn basic, low level spells out of the book, but even if they succeed they have to roll again with NO modifiers (complete luck) a mere 20% chance they don't get r**med. The chances of getting anything new or higher level might as well say "Don't Bother" in the book rather than allow any spell caster to get his hopes up.


Wait, where do you get that spell casters have a low chance of learning new spells? There is no roll to learn new spells, you just spend the required time.

Umm... NO!
You get 2 spells per level which MUST be your new level or lower. That's it for automatic learning. Even paying someone to teach you (and that's thousands of credits for low level common spells) does technically require a roll, but unless you GM is TRYING to screw you over, most will skip it.

Everything else follows the really absurd rules first printed in Nightbane 'Through the Glass Darkly' and then modified and reprinted in Mysteries of Magic (hated that book) which also first gave the rule about mages and armor, and then I've seen it again in one of the Rifts books (but I've got most of the old ones and I've long ago started to ignore the rule so forgot which one). Likewise, the scroll conversion chances are listed in several different places.

You essentially have less then a 20% chance of learning a low level spell unless you're high level and if trying to invent a new spell, even if just a variation to an old spell, you have less than a 10% chance and then have to roll again on a separate table to see if it worked even if you made the first roll. :badbad: And if trying for something completely new, your chances are half of that.

In the Nightbane book, the chance of learning a new spell was exactly one tenth of your principles of magic skill. So if you had a PoM of 72%, your chances of learning a new spell was 7%.


Similar to scrolls, those are the odds of teaching yourself a new spell, not being taught a new spell through study but lacking a primary source. If you have a teacher there is no roll.

Through the Glass Darkly, page 37 wrote:Often, these mages will learn from mentors or ancient grimoires, buy tuition from magical brotherhoods and associations, be taught spells by friends, etc. But from time to time they will want to develop a spell in secret, or will want a magic which no one else seems to know, or will want to avoid the expense or complication of learning from another source. Devising spells on their own, provides the character with a method other than having to grovel before or pay money to more powerful mages to learn additional spells.


The section you are quoting explictly refers to the fact that it only applys if your trying to learn spells without the benefit of a tutor, on your own, just by studying stuff solo. If you DO purchase magic or have a teacher, these rules, by the same token, do not apply. you just learn them, no roll, just pay the cost or do whatever favor was asked.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Dracolych68 »

killgore444 wrote:There are several places throughout the books that make it a point of saying that spell casters are all ego bound lunatics who will never share research or help one another with spell design for fear of losing their edge. It's the justification for the super low chances of success and over priced cost of being taught new spells. Not to mention the justification of so few spells making it to print.


The "ego-driven maniacs" part is only about the higher level stuff. There is a reason for the shared libraries in various Mages Guilds in PF. The higher level stuff being horded is kinda common sense, since with magic, knowledge is literally power. The price for spells being taught being what they are, is part gatekeeping, and partly the fact that the student is bringing nothing to the table but the gold/credits. With developing new and variant spells, the price should obviously lower, since all those doing the R&D would get the spell in the end, or at least in game terms, get a chance to roll to learn it. Too bad the prices are copy/pasted, so no price listed for help with research.

killgore444 wrote:
The Mage Armor rule should go away, and should have never been made in the first place.
IF it stays, it'd be nice if we had better parameters to work with when it comes to deciding what mages CAN wear.


Or ways around it like my proficiency idea.


While in the RMB trying to adhere to the rule from PF was a pain and my groups ignored it, there are plenty of alternatives to EBArmor that are Mage friendly, they are just spread through out the various books.
  • Canada has Homemade MDC Armor and Furry Beetle Armor (pg. 191-192)
  • Juicer Uprising has Super-Hide Armor on page 71
  • Vampire Kingdoms has Dragon Hide Armor buried in the description of Bonecruncher, of a race called Dragon Slayers. Old VK, it's on pg. 152
  • From RUE you have Dog Pack Riot Armor (pg. 148), Concealed Ley Line Walker Armor (pg.113), Huntsman Plate & Padded Armor (pg. 268) and Juicer Plate Armor (pg.267)
  • In FoM you have the Standard High Magus body armor (pg. 82), Lord Magus Armor (pg. 79), Magus Battler Armor (pg. 73), Magus Controller Armor (pg. 76) and Mystic Knight Armor (pg. 94)
  • Australia has Outback Armor (pg. 202), a modular homemade armor creating thing to get that look you want, only with proper stats for it
  • Millennium Tree armors from England
  • From New West you have the Bandito (pg. 177, based on Huntsman) and Range Rider (pg. 179)
  • Dinosaur Swamp has Steeltree Unforged Bark armor, Unforged Twig armor and Unforged Leaf armor (pg. 80 - 81)
  • Northern Gun 2 has the NG Armored Clothing lines, starting on page 39, where most if not all would be considered appropriate.
  • And that's not even including armor made from normal wood and then had the Ironwood spell applied to it, or the Necromantic equivalent to it.

Or, you know, just open up the GMG to page 192 and go down the next several pages and mark down every suit of armor that is marked as non-EBA.

killgore444 wrote:
And I share your frustration with stuff like the Wall of Stone spell. There should be permanent options for stuff like that, although things could get out of hand if it was TOO easy.
And you're preaching to the choir with non-combat spells!

It's NOT just magic BTW. Psionics is not much better (memory wipe requires the permanent sacrifice of 3 ME points by the psychic to make permanent, really). And superpowers are just as bad. The only real examples of non combat usefulness is the ability to survive hostile environments and Control Elemental Force: Earth which gives you the permanent walls of stone.

Ironically, being a Necromancer or a Nightlord from Nightbane are the 2 examples of magic having permanent affects. And both are villains.


You are forgetting a few classes. Any class with a "Permanency" thing in their tool-kit counts. Only ones I can think of off the top of my head are the Diabolist from PF and the Line Drawer from South America 2. The Conjurer can make their stuff permanent by sacrificing some permanent PPE. And then there's the place the Wall of Stone came from in the first place, the Earth Warlocks. Straight up conjuring the wall makes it a magical construct, so magic ends, so does the wall. They do have spells like Create Dirt or Clay and the whole line of Turn (insert type here) into (insert other type here) spells as well, like Turn Clay to Stone, Turn Stone to Iron, or Iron to Clay, stone to mud, stone to flesh, etc. All are permanent. Takes more work than just conjuring a wall, but pretty cheap, especially if you get an Elemental to help out. There's also Biomancy spells from South America 1.

And like with Killer Cyborg, you're preaching to the quire about non-combat spells. PF has a nice assortment of them, but there could always be more.

killgore444 wrote:
I've pointed out myself in the past that direct combat is generally the weakest area of magic, AND that mages are supposed to use their brains instead of blasting stuff (according to Kev, and the BOM essay the one guy wrote, and so forth), and yet the large majority of spells are all just variations of "imma blast it."
I'm definitely with you there.

I know that direct conversions are bad, but so many of the original spells in PFRPG were almost exactly like other games, I wish they'd continue that and start going over the spells other games have created and doing something similar. Just make them spell invocations, not new OCCs.


They kinda still do that, but in drips and drabs, spread out through the various books and product lines. For instance, I found Palladium's version of the Fireball spell from D&D, but it's in the Hero's unlimited: GM's Guide. 8th lvl spell, Fire Storm (pg.188), that is just the Palladium Fireball spell with an Aoe of 20 ft. radius and costs 30 PPE. The personal teleport spell is there as well. Teleport, 10th level, HU: GM's Guide, pg. 193. The 6th level spell Create Bread and Milk from the PFMB is kinda vaguely comparable to Goodberry from D&D. There is a rather large dearth of AoE spells, but then again, Palladium is mostly Theater of the Mind, not War gaming, like some iterations of D&D. If you have any ideas of spells to bring over that we don't already have, feel free to list them and I can try to find a Palladium equivalent to them, but most of the ones I think of, there is already an equivalent to them, even if it is a recent thing, like the increase of attack spells with FoM.

Edit:
killgore444 wrote:Umm... NO!
You get 2 spells per level which MUST be your new level or lower. That's it for automatic learning. Even paying someone to teach you (and that's thousands of credits for low level common spells) does technically require a roll, but unless you GM is TRYING to screw you over, most will skip it.

Everything else follows the really absurd rules first printed in Nightbane 'Through the Glass Darkly' and then modified and reprinted in Mysteries of Magic (hated that book) which also first gave the rule about mages and armor, and then I've seen it again in one of the Rifts books (but I've got most of the old ones and I've long ago started to ignore the rule so forgot which one). Likewise, the scroll conversion chances are listed in several different places.

You essentially have less then a 20% chance of learning a low level spell unless you're high level and if trying to invent a new spell, even if just a variation to an old spell, you have less than a 10% chance and then have to roll again on a separate table to see if it worked even if you made the first roll. :badbad: And if trying for something completely new, your chances are half of that.

In the Nightbane book, the chance of learning a new spell was exactly one tenth of your principles of magic skill. So if you had a PoM of 72%, your chances of learning a new spell was 7%.
First off, your GM borking you on creating or learning new spells let them be more generous on spells at level up, since all the major spell casting classes only get 1 spell at level up, not 2.

Second, the rules for making spells are very different between Through the Looking Glass and Mysteries of Magic. TtLG has it at IQ+ME+ (1/10)*PoM, so your 7% is actually about 29%, and that's without any bonuses or minuses. As Nakira pointed out, this rolling is only if you don't have someone there to teach you, I.E. trying to recreate a common spell by your self. Also, the minuses don't start kicking in until you try to create a spell of 9th level or higher or try to drastically alter the spell or make it more powerful. As the example shows, if you have that 29% chance and have a 10% penalty, your final chance isn't 19%, it's -(29%/10%) = -2.9% = -3% so 26%

I definitely agree that Mysteries of Magic went stupid with the changes to spell creation, basically locking it behind 9th level. Scroll Conversion was bad enough with it being 8% or 10% +2 per level, but with the changes, it's not even worth bothering to try. Same with spell (re)creating. Considering the fact that the free spell you get every level is one you managed to figure out since last level up, then obviously your spell creation % should be better than it says in MoM, considering you spend at least 3d6x10 months researching it. But if you disregard the changes, then it is nowhere near as bad as you think it is to get more spells. Not great, but actually doable, unlike with the MoM.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

Library Ogre wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:I've also noted a reluctance in some older games (and older gamers, of whom Kevin can be considered) to have good tactical healing... i.e. "Healing that will happen quickly and maintain someone during a fight." Healing spells tend to be relatively limited in power, and Palladium really likes the long meditation times for psionic healing (1e PFRPG had a 10 minute meditation to get 2d6 HP for yourself, with no healing touch for non-healers). When rounds transitioned from a minute to 15 seconds each, healing times often stayed at per-minute.


All good points but it doesn't address systems like Heroes Unlimited, BTS, where you might want healing so that your player characters doesn't have to spend weeks healing up in-between encounters.


It does, when you consider the same person wrote all of them. Kevin's preferences shape all of Palladium's games, to a greater or lesser extent.


The problem is that players can't take damage and not have to retreat and heal up before the next encounter. I have never been in a dungeon adventure that the players could complete without a Cleric healing them up between encounters.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Library Ogre »

SpiritInterface wrote:The problem is that players can't take damage and not have to retreat and heal up before the next encounter. I have never been in a dungeon adventure that the players could complete without a Cleric healing them up between encounters.


I mean, yes. Because the rules as written are very rough on magical healing, because of the aforementioned design prejudices. Healing, as written, is not very powerful*, because of the design preferences of the guy who signs off on all the material.



*Notably, though, Palladium healing is WAY ahead of something like D&D, simply because healing from a priest is unlimited, save by time.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

SpiritInterface wrote:
Library Ogre wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:I've also noted a reluctance in some older games (and older gamers, of whom Kevin can be considered) to have good tactical healing... i.e. "Healing that will happen quickly and maintain someone during a fight." Healing spells tend to be relatively limited in power, and Palladium really likes the long meditation times for psionic healing (1e PFRPG had a 10 minute meditation to get 2d6 HP for yourself, with no healing touch for non-healers). When rounds transitioned from a minute to 15 seconds each, healing times often stayed at per-minute.


All good points but it doesn't address systems like Heroes Unlimited, BTS, where you might want healing so that your player characters doesn't have to spend weeks healing up in-between encounters.


It does, when you consider the same person wrote all of them. Kevin's preferences shape all of Palladium's games, to a greater or lesser extent.


The problem is that players can't take damage and not have to retreat and heal up before the next encounter. I have never been in a dungeon adventure that the players could complete without a Cleric healing them up between encounters.


That’s a feature, not a bug.
Palladium’s system is constantly described as “a thinking man’s game.”
You get xp for cleverness and avoiding unnecessary violence more than combat.

Of course there’s an incentive to avoid taking damage, to not just rush in and play the old “imma stab you more than you stab me, then imma heal” routine, which is unrealistic as heck in the first place.

NOBODY in the real world goes into combat with the intention of getting stabbed, then resting up after.
They go in with the goal of NOT getting stabbed.
Try playing the game with that same goal, see how it works.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:
Library Ogre wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:I've also noted a reluctance in some older games (and older gamers, of whom Kevin can be considered) to have good tactical healing... i.e. "Healing that will happen quickly and maintain someone during a fight." Healing spells tend to be relatively limited in power, and Palladium really likes the long meditation times for psionic healing (1e PFRPG had a 10 minute meditation to get 2d6 HP for yourself, with no healing touch for non-healers). When rounds transitioned from a minute to 15 seconds each, healing times often stayed at per-minute.


All good points but it doesn't address systems like Heroes Unlimited, BTS, where you might want healing so that your player characters doesn't have to spend weeks healing up in-between encounters.


It does, when you consider the same person wrote all of them. Kevin's preferences shape all of Palladium's games, to a greater or lesser extent.


The problem is that players can't take damage and not have to retreat and heal up before the next encounter. I have never been in a dungeon adventure that the players could complete without a Cleric healing them up between encounters.


That’s a feature, not a bug.
Palladium’s system is constantly described as “a thinking man’s game.”
You get xp for cleverness and avoiding unnecessary violence more than combat.

Of course there’s an incentive to avoid taking damage, to not just rush in and play the old “imma stab you more than you stab me, then imma heal” routine, which is unrealistic as heck in the first place.

NOBODY in the real world goes into combat with the intention of getting stabbed, then resting up after.
They go in with the goal of NOT getting stabbed.
Try playing the game with that same goal, see how it works.


It's a matter of taste.

Library Ogre wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:The problem is that players can't take damage and not have to retreat and heal up before the next encounter. I have never been in a dungeon adventure that the players could complete without a Cleric healing them up between encounters.


I mean, yes. Because the rules as written are very rough on magical healing, because of the aforementioned design prejudices. Healing, as written, is not very powerful*, because of the design preferences of the guy who signs off on all the material.



*Notably, though, Palladium healing is WAY ahead of something like D&D, simply because healing from a priest is unlimited, save by time.



This is pretty much it. Of course Kevin's preferences shape the game - he's the primary author of it. How much your biases align with Kevin is the major determinate of how much you like the games. I don't think anyone agrees with 100% of the rules, not even Kevin himself (who still uses house rules in his own system!)
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:It's a matter of taste.


Agreed.
And by that token, people won't know whether they like it or not until they've tried it.
;)


*Notably, though, Palladium healing is WAY ahead of something like D&D, simply because healing from a priest is unlimited, save by time.


Good point.
:ok:


Kevin's preferences shape the game - he's the primary author of it. How much your biases align with Kevin is the major determinate of how much you like the games. I don't think anyone agrees with 100% of the rules, not even Kevin himself (who still uses house rules in his own system!)


Exactly.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by General Kong »

How do you guys deal with unlimited healing by Priests of Light in Palladium Fantasy. I personally don't like the idea that after a fight everybody is as good as new as long as you bring a PoL around and keep him safely out of combat.

Fighting a "Holy Fortress of Light" does not even make any sense: With 1000 Soldies and 100 PoL that fight probably takes forever for even the PoL can heal each other. If you are not powerful enough to kill the "Light" Forces right away Evil Overlord's orc hordes will face them every day of the week AGAIN AND AGAIN.

What is your house rule - or do you simple ignore the problem? Or isn't it a problem. Curious because I want to address the issue before I start a campaign.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

General Kong wrote:How do you guys deal with unlimited healing by Priests of Light in Palladium Fantasy. I personally don't like the idea that after a fight everybody is as good as new as long as you bring a PoL around and keep him safely out of combat.

Fighting a "Holy Fortress of Light" does not even make any sense: With 1000 Soldies and 100 PoL that fight probably takes forever for even the PoL can heal each other. If you are not powerful enough to kill the "Light" Forces right away Evil Overlord's orc hordes will face them every day of the week AGAIN AND AGAIN.

What is your house rule - or do you simple ignore the problem? Or isn't it a problem. Curious because I want to address the issue before I start a campaign.


Weather it is or is not a problem largely depends on what you want out of the system.

For one thing, Healing Touch can't heal the dead, so anyone who dies during the fight is gone. sure, PoL's have a miniscule chance of bringing someone back, but it's likely not going to work.

For another: You forget that Priests of Darkness also have healing touch, only slightly inferior. 1d6 vs 2d4. which is slightly inferior in combat (average 3.5 vs 5)), but gives functionally the same anti-attrition to the forces of darkness (if that's the kind of game your running). Any orcs that get away back to their shaman are fully healed and ready to go again.

but also: the main thing is attrition isn't the only form of difficulty. again, anyone who dies is dead. You still want to be careful, especially because characters in Palladium Fantasy are far, far less tanky than in Rifts.

Consider Healing Touch's "Only Once Every Other Melee Round" limitation. It's basically useless in combat, at most you heal one person near death for one hit's worth of damage, if that. It's never going to save the party from being overwhelmed, and remember, anyone who's dead-dead (negative HP > PE) is just gone and won't help them. and with that limitation, they're not going to keep them over that either.

That's where the danger comes in, not in the fact they are suffering attrition fight to fight, but the fact that the Healer can't actually heal in the middle of combat. once Init is rolled, everyone has to win with the health they have on them. even if it's full.

If you're wondering how to design encounters, this is the main change in mindset you need to handle Palladium combat: Palladium as a system goes for Cinematic Realism (not actually realistic mind you, but it wants very hard to feel like it is serious and believable), and more specifically a kind of Comic Book Feel: Every encounter is is potentially dangerous and deadly (Unless it's a low stakes fight with some mooks, but those are more warm ups), but as long as you manage to not die (or run), the Heroes are back up to full by the end and ready for the next one.

If you're more used to D&D, where the system is designed to slowly whittle down party resources over several encounters, that's not really how it works. Every encounter has to be potentially deadly in it's own right.

But if that sounds like it could get old fast...well, yea. Palladium was always open about encouraging non-combat roleplay over Roleplay. you should spend most of the time in game cleverly avoiding fights rather than getting into them.

and again to clarify: the above is not how one must play the game, but it is the philosphy the game was designed for: the reason it doesn't work well for attrition is it's designed to discourage it.

A case of feature-not-bug.

If you really want to make with less healing: I'd suggest limiting Healing Touch to like 8x per day, removing the once every other melee round restriction, and increasing it to more like 1d6 HP and 3d6 SDC (In line with the magical and psionic healing touches).

but you can also try keeping it as it is and seeing how the less attrition-focused combat works for you.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by Prince Artemis »

In another aspect of it, palladium isn't the greatest system for a really good healer class. With D&D, they're limited by spell slots. With Rifts (which was the focus per the op since they were mentioning the technology difference), its PPE based. PPE can be gotten from not just from the caster, but nature and the person they're healing, and even the death of others. So a really good combat medic mage would basically be able to perpetually heal. Yes, in a fight they're not great, but in a drawn out war scenario, no one would stay majorly injured (though the source book does specify that minor healing spells only heal the flesh, not bone). This includes day to day life. If you have even a low level ley line walker with a few low level spells (cure minor illness, cure light wounds and healing touch), everyone in that town should be running peak health forever, due to how quickly someone can recoup the ppe needed for those spells.

I run into this a bit with my game with Artemis. He's a multi-classed mage at this point (on his 4th, after getting the others to 15), and has a lot of ppe resources. When your mage can throw around restorations, reconstructions, and resurrections (or in his case, reincarnate) it takes a LOT of the threat out of even major encounters. The GM even set up the current bosses to be anti-healing, able to twist healing magic into something else, even if cast by others. So the simple solution was for me to sit out of the active adventures and just act as medic when they got back to base.

So yeah, they don't have a lot of healing magic, with it basically going from 0 to 60 (very minor healing at low levels to 'can cure death' at high levels), but its because in a game world sense, healing magic is the hardest thing to balance. I think Rifts especially, when focused on balanced, focused more on the world building side of things than the standard game. Which isn't really a bad thing since it allows for playing games of all types, from low powered, no one has mdc armor to start games to everyone has a powered armor to start games.
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Re: Why does Kevin Siembieda hate Healing spells and Psionic

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

SpiritInterface wrote:Why does Kevin hate players being able to heal during an adventure? Why do healing spells and psionics do such a piddling amount of SDC/MDC and hit point for the cost?

They work okay in the PF RPG game. The healing could be upscaled to match the inclusion of SDC into the 2nd ed.

But I have notice for years that the Healing magic didn't scale/convert from SDC healing to MDC healing like other spells that do convert/scale up to the MDC/MD level with the creation of the Rifts game.

jaymz: For the MDC healing spells you can just x100 to the SDC healing die number to keep the same scaling level when converting to the better game. So you end up with a spell healing 100's of SDC/HP when using the imported "MDC" healing spell in the better game. Though this solution is better applied to the HU game because there are more characters with 100's of SDC/HP.

---------------
Magic & Tech doing the same stuff....
I hate the idea of making tech be able to do things that magic does. Or to say ....making the generalized char able to do the unique thing that the specialized char can do. It cheapens the specialization cost and making it all banal.

----------------
I would point out that the spell creation rules in PF MOM1 are not exaclly the same as those in the Thought the Glass Darkly NB gamebook. And are more in line with the setting that the PF game is set in. As such using the word 'Reprinted' is not applicable.
Yes, the rules have it that it takes a Loonnnngggggg time to craft a spell. This is in line with nearly every story about mages crafting spells. (except for maybe those stories where the mage is level 9999.) But the rules themselves do let the player have an option about how his/her char got that unique spell that makes that char unique.

I'll point out that MD weapons also cost 1000's of credits. And the Better One scale up the cost. So paying 1000's of credits to learn a spell and better ones scaling up the cost ....it is called economics.
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