Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

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Rogerd
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

Unread post by Rogerd »

Shark_Force wrote:again, multiple people performing the exact same ritual can get completely different results that will be consistent across their own use of it, and completely different from what someone else gets. two different people performing completely different rituals can generate the exact same results, and every part of both rituals can be absolutely 100% necessary to each of them being able to obtain that result; leave out one thing from either ritual, and it stops functioning properly. I don't particularly care what words the books use to describe it. magic is not science. it follows different rules.


Which happens in scientific experiments all of the time. It is like you are totally ignorant of how science actually works!

Shark_Force wrote:so, just to be clear, you're allowed to pull things out of your ass, and I have to provide citations for everything? because I don't see any citations about magic drawing energy from hyperspace to create things, or acting as a transformer to... boost the input of whatever it is you think is going on.


I was very clear about it being totally theoretical. Please do keep up.

Shark_Force wrote:I don't think you even know what rules lawyering is.


Clearly I do, see below comment.

Shark_Force wrote:the impervious to energy spell clearly lays out the fact that it makes you impervious to energy, in both the name and the description. if you get shot with 10,000 plasma cannons, you are impervious. there is no weird reading of the rule. just a straight reading of the spell doing exactly what it says it does, without needing to twist anything. the spell does what it says. it says it makes energy attacks do nothing to you. therefore, energy attacks do nothing to you, whether they are powerful or weak, big or small, many or few.


Thanks for proving my point that you are rules lawyering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_lawyer

Shark_Force wrote:if you get shot with 10,000 plasma cannons, you are impervious.

Shark_Force wrote:impervious to energy just shrugs off as much energy as you care to throw its way and a wall of defence doesn't even care what kind of destructive implement you throw its way.


Trying to use the text of the rules as written (RAW) to argue you are immune, or impervious, to a particular effect regardless of output is rules lawyering - explicitly so. This is usually not the Rules as Intended (RAI). So thank you again for proving my point that you are rules lawyering. Just so you know, this kind of gaming is just bad, like really bad. Impervious and Invulnerable does not mean it is a no-limits fallacy.

So you are literally proving me right, time and again here.

Shark_Force wrote:- any spell that can create a rift can teleport you across the universe in an instant.


Which spell?
Rifts Ultimate Edition Said: Rift Teleportation. Range: Up to 100 miles ( 1 60 km) per level of the spell caster.

Or is it another one?

Shark_Force wrote:your post about a movie that is not a palladium game does nothing to prove anything. palladium is not the MCU. the laws there are different. and again, most importantly, the medium is entirely different. magic can work however the hell it wants in the MCU, because it doesn't matter if Dr Strange doesn't use any of his many abilities to accomplish anything remotely effective. if Tony Stark is decided to be the main character, Dr Strange can just sit around with his thumb up his ass doing nothing because again, the actor is being paid to do a job. tabletop RPGs don't work like that. you can't tell the rest of the group "ok, your job is to make this guy look good, so make stupid decisions that require him to do everything and ensure that any contribution you make is ultimately pointless unless it makes him look even more important". Dr Strange has a multitude of abilities. we see him use basically none of them in end game/infinity war movies. so sure, if the magic user just pretends that they don't have any spells that could ever be useful, they might need some help, but the proper solution here is to just not be written into acting like a moron.


If you cannot understand the use of an analogy, or a parallel - words fail me at this point.

Shark_Force wrote:magic requiring PPE to use is a limitation. if you remove that, you are removing a limitation. I'm not sure how this can be made any more simple.

Shark_Force wrote:I am completely baffled by your desire to remove something that exists to prevent imbalance.


Is it your second language? Genuinely interested here.
I have repeatedly said about not removing limits, just changing them, in order to allow more magic use - in like an environment which is a high magic zone. It is like you are totally failing to comprehend the fluff of the setting.

Shark_Force wrote:yes, magic is encouraged to think outside of the box (as is everything else).


That's awfully funny, as you previously said-

Shark_Force wrote:furthermore, the idea that a magic user must think outside of the box to be effective in a palladium is laughably absurd.


That's it mate, back peddle some more. Just remember do not exceed 88 miles per hour.

Irregardless what you think, or say, this is from the games designer saying that you need to use magic in unexpected ways - so no matter what you say to justify yourself the games designer says you're wrong. Deal with it.

Shark_Force wrote:it costs very little to cast, and basically gives you a laser pistol except better


Except the games designer's say you're wrong.
Guess what that makes you?

Shark_Force wrote:they very specifically use technology for lots of things.


In Rifts, sure. In Palladium Fantasy they do not. But the reason they cannot in Rifts, is the PPE costs, which and I utterly love how you keep doing this - ignore that it is a high magic envirnoment.

Shark_Force wrote:than reducing it to being like a gun (which they also get as starting equipment) that any untrained buffoon could use instead of using it to win the fight by giving themselves a massively unfair advantage, like being completely immune to their opponent's weapon or blinding their opponent or rendering them unable to move.


Lightning bolting someone in the face usually results in them not moving too. And is also an unfair advantage when your e-clip has run out.
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

Unread post by The Beast »

Rogerd wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:the impervious to energy spell clearly lays out the fact that it makes you impervious to energy, in both the name and the description. if you get shot with 10,000 plasma cannons, you are impervious. there is no weird reading of the rule. just a straight reading of the spell doing exactly what it says it does, without needing to twist anything. the spell does what it says. it says it makes energy attacks do nothing to you. therefore, energy attacks do nothing to you, whether they are powerful or weak, big or small, many or few.


Thanks for proving my point that you are rules lawyering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_lawyer

Shark_Force wrote:if you get shot with 10,000 plasma cannons, you are impervious.

Shark_Force wrote:impervious to energy just shrugs off as much energy as you care to throw its way and a wall of defence doesn't even care what kind of destructive implement you throw its way.


Trying to use the text of the rules as written (RAW) to argue you are immune, or impervious, to a particular effect regardless of output is rules lawyering - explicitly so. This is usually not the Rules as Intended (RAI). So thank you again for proving my point that you are rules lawyering. Just so you know, this kind of gaming is just bad, like really bad. Impervious and Invulnerable does not mean it is a no-limits fallacy.


I'm kind of curious as to how you think a spell that includes the words
Energy attacks do no damage whatsoever
was written to include those words by an author who intended the spell to function in a completely different manner.
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

Unread post by Rogerd »

The Beast wrote:I'm kind of curious as to how you think a spell that includes the words

Energy attacks do no damage whatsoever


was written to include those words by an author who intended the spell to function in a completely different manner.


Ooh look a rules lawyer.
You do understand what rules laywering is right?
You do understand what a no-limits fallacy is right?
RAW and RAI are not the same thing generally, and using that kind of text to survive a multi-megaton nuke or a supernova is abusing the system due to poor wording or phrasing. This is role playing in bad faith, and disingenuous.

Warning: Please continue this discussion without the combative and accusatory tone. Mack
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

Unread post by The Beast »

Well considering both of those events have effects that wouldn't be covered by the spell, no, I wouldn't expect to survive them by using that spell. However I'd still like to know how you're arriving at what the author's intent is.
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

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Rogerd wrote:You do understand what rules laywering is right?


Yup, it's trying to convince everyone at the table that Immune to Energy means you are immune to KINETIC energy too, since it is ... y'know, Energy.
:D
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

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Lock Warning.

Friends, this discussion is devolving into something non-productive. Please remember that we are all here as fans of Palladium.
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

“Impervious To Energy” means exactly what it says.
It doesn’t mean kinetic energy, but all else being equal, this power would let you hang out in the heart of a son... insofar as energy damage is concerned.
That’s not lawyering; it’s just looking at the rules and not actively ignoring them.

RAI doesn’t change things unless we have a good reason to believe that there’s a different intent than what is described.
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

Unread post by Rogerd »

Killer Cyborg wrote:“Impervious To Energy” means exactly what it says.
It doesn’t mean kinetic energy, but all else being equal, this power would let you hang out in the heart of a son... insofar as energy damage is concerned.
That’s not lawyering; it’s just looking at the rules and not actively ignoring them.

RAI doesn’t change things unless we have a good reason to believe that there’s a different intent than what is described.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_lawyer

A rules lawyer is a participant in a rules-based environment who attempts to use the letter of the law without reference to the spirit, usually in order to gain an advantage within that environment


https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RulesLawyer

they believe that because they can find a rule about something, the people in charge must allow them to do it, even if it doesn't make sense, or would screw with what's going on.


That is rules lawyering dude, by any other name.
And to look at this another way.
The Old Ones fought a battle over Palladium, yet the planet is still intact - yet oddly none of their spells cracked the planet like an egg. Nor did they destroy the dimension either like is claimed in some books. So if their magic could not do that, then ergo therefore any magic cannot let you sit in the heart of the sun.

So yeah, you're wrong on this interpretation of the rules.
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

Unread post by Borast »

Rogerd wrote:And to look at this another way.
The Old Ones fought a battle over Palladium, yet the planet is still intact - yet oddly none of their spells cracked the planet like an egg. Nor did they destroy the dimension either like is claimed in some books. So if their magic could not do that, then ergo therefore any magic cannot let you sit in the heart of the sun.

QED.

So yeah, you're wrong.


You consider the Pally world to be intact?
I don't. An "intact" world doesn't have a wall preventing anyone from passing. Since Kev hasn't made any declaration one way or the other that I'm aware of (other than it is collapsing)...we don't know. For all we know, the Palladium world is an "Argo City" situation. It may simply be a pocket dimension that is only the size of half the planet Earth... We don't know.

Incidentally. your argument is apples and oranges. That the Old Ones didn't destroy the dimension and eradicate the planet does not mean magic can not protect you from the heart of a star...and 'ItE' wouldn't do so, since millions of tonnes of pressure on you is not energy. Even Invulnerability won't protect you from that. It means that no CURRENTLY KNOWN magic can do so.

Remember, hundreds, if not thousands of different types of magics vanished in, or after the War, and hundreds or more different spells per type of magic.
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

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Borast wrote:You consider the Pally world to be intact? I don't. An "intact" world doesn't have a wall preventing anyone from passing. Since Kev hasn't made any declaration one way or the other that I'm aware of (other than it is collapsing)...we don't know. For all we know, the Palladium world is an "Argo City" situation. It may simply be a pocket dimension that is only the size of half the planet Earth... We don't know.


But going by the fluff in the Old Ones book, killing one is akin to causing a vacuum collapse, i.e. it destroys the universe. Palladium an absolutely a mess though, although it does appear on further reading to more of a disc world affair - assuming it was originally a planet. So you may well be right here. That said, there should have been no planet left considering the powers involved.

Borast wrote:Incidentally. your argument is apples and oranges. That the Old Ones didn't destroy the dimension and eradicate the planet does not mean magic can not protect you from the heart of a star...and 'ItE' wouldn't do so, since millions of tonnes of pressure on you is not energy.


It kinda of does. I am sure that someone is able to calculate the output an individual would be subject in the heard of a star, which would also gives us a yield in tons of TNT. Now we know that if West Coast were to sink (along the San Andreas fault line) it would generate about 1 teraton of energy. And this is just a small part of the planet.

This is a lot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub ... extinction

between 1.3×10^24 and 5.8×10^25 joules


Now if we look at the yield generated by the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs, this created a blast twice as powerful as San Fran sinking. Okay a quick check gets me this data

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of ... 8energy%29

10^26 3.8×10^26 J Total energy output of the Sun each second

So yeah i was right on output per second. That is a lotta energy, and nothing in the books seems to indicate that anything can survive such a high level of energy.
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

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Rogerd wrote:But going by the fluff in the Old Ones book, killing one is akin to causing a vacuum collapse, i.e. it destroys the universe. Palladium an absolutely a mess though, although it does appear on further reading to more of a disc world affair - assuming it was originally a planet. So you may well be right here. That said, there should have been no planet left considering the powers involved.


That I recall from reading it (30 years ago...), with the possible exception of some of the least powerful, none of them died, they were drained and imprisoned.

Rogerd wrote:
Borast wrote:Incidentally. your argument is apples and oranges. That the Old Ones didn't destroy the dimension and eradicate the planet does not mean magic can not protect you from the heart of a star...and 'ItE' wouldn't do so, since millions of tonnes of pressure on you is not energy.


It kinda of does. I am sure that someone is able to calculate the output an individual would be subject in the heard of a star, which would also gives us a yield in tons of TNT. Now we know that if West Coast were to sink (along the San Andreas fault line) it would generate about 1 teraton of energy. And this is just a small part of the planet.


In reverse... true... Kinetic energy. ;)
As for the core of the sun...again, Impervious to Energy would not protect you. From the heat, sure...but the energetic plasma is physical, and has mass. ItE will not protect you from the crushing pressure. Remember, it takes a photon on the order of a million years to pass through the soup of the core, which is borderline solid.

Think of it this way. A dump truck drops 10,000 kilos of scalding hot asphalt on your head... ItE will prevent you from suffering near instantaneous 3rd degree burns to near 100% of your body, but not the crushing mass.
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Rogerd wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:“Impervious To Energy” means exactly what it says.
It doesn’t mean kinetic energy, but all else being equal, this power would let you hang out in the heart of a son... insofar as energy damage is concerned.
That’s not lawyering; it’s just looking at the rules and not actively ignoring them.

RAI doesn’t change things unless we have a good reason to believe that there’s a different intent than what is described.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_lawyer

A rules lawyer is a participant in a rules-based environment who attempts to use the letter of the law without reference to the spirit, usually in order to gain an advantage within that environment


Got anything to prove that the spirit in this case runs counter to the law?
Because I go with RAI over RAW all the time... it's just in this case, we only seem to have RAW.
And that doesn't give people license to project whatever intent they like onto the rules, which is what it looks like you're doing.

So... what have you got that shows or indicates that RAI is different from RAW in this case?
:?

And to look at this another way.
The Old Ones fought a battle over Palladium, yet the planet is still intact - yet oddly none of their spells cracked the planet like an egg. Nor did they destroy the dimension either like is claimed in some books. So if their magic could not do that, then ergo therefore any magic cannot let you sit in the heart of the sun.


Uh... have you confused "fought a battle over Palladium" with "fought a battle against Palladium, with intent to destroy the world"...?
I mean, what are you going for here?
From where I sit, "they didn't destroy a planet that they weren't trying to destroy" does not in any way imply "they couldn't protect a person they were trying to protect."
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

Unread post by Rogerd »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Rogerd wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:“Impervious To Energy” means exactly what it says.
It doesn’t mean kinetic energy, but all else being equal, this power would let you hang out in the heart of a son... insofar as energy damage is concerned.
That’s not lawyering; it’s just looking at the rules and not actively ignoring them.

RAI doesn’t change things unless we have a good reason to believe that there’s a different intent than what is described.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_lawyer

A rules lawyer is a participant in a rules-based environment who attempts to use the letter of the law without reference to the spirit, usually in order to gain an advantage within that environment


Got anything to prove that the spirit in this case runs counter to the law?
Because I go with RAI over RAW all the time... it's just in this case, we only seem to have RAW.
And that doesn't give people license to project whatever intent they like onto the rules, which is what it looks like you're doing.

So... what have you got that shows or indicates that RAI is different from RAW in this case?
:?

And to look at this another way.
The Old Ones fought a battle over Palladium, yet the planet is still intact - yet oddly none of their spells cracked the planet like an egg. Nor did they destroy the dimension either like is claimed in some books. So if their magic could not do that, then ergo therefore any magic cannot let you sit in the heart of the sun.


Uh... have you confused "fought a battle over Palladium" with "fought a battle against Palladium, with intent to destroy the world"...?
I mean, what are you going for here?
From where I sit, "they didn't destroy a planet that they weren't trying to destroy" does not in any way imply "they couldn't protect a person they were trying to protect."


Oh all of this is too easy to prove quite honestly.
The largest yield to date is from a Dominator vessel which does 2d6 x 10 Million MDC damage.

Mega-Damage: Fired singularly, each cannon inflicts 1D6x1 million M.D.C If combined, the blast destroys everything in its path of fire, regardless of M.D.C. Against a planet, a combined volley will inflict 2D6x1 million M.D. to a ten mile area (16 km)


So assuming a ten mile radius for the fireball we can calculate that it has a yield of around 9 MT per shot.

https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

This will generate a fireball of just over ten miles, thus fulfilling the game mechanics. Nothing in Palladium is able to output that kind of damage, not even a god that self destructs. So if that is the most destructive thing seen (it is terrible), then unless you have something to show RAI intend to demonstrate greater durability, we clearly have a maximum yield that anything can withstand.

Not the least of which, that would also hurt, and likely even kill a Cosmo-Knight if hit directly with a combined blast

I want cold hard limits on what powers can accomplish, so that there is no arguing around the table. For example if I say they are X-men level, then no powers would be that overly powerful, but if players were at a higher level, whether Avengers or even higher say DCEU kind of powers then i would expect any powers to accomplish more.

Now you want to turn Immune to into an almost no-limits thing, go right ahead as such things are not my bag. If you want to run your games that way, have fun, and best of luck.
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Rogerd wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:So... what have you got that shows or indicates that RAI is different from RAW in this case?
:?


Oh all of this is too easy to prove quite honestly.
The largest yield to date is from a Dominator vessel which does 2d6 x 10 Million MDC damage.

Mega-Damage: Fired singularly, each cannon inflicts 1D6x1 million M.D.C If combined, the blast destroys everything in its path of fire, regardless of M.D.C. Against a planet, a combined volley will inflict 2D6x1 million M.D. to a ten mile area (16 km)

So assuming a ten mile radius for the fireball we can calculate that it has a yield of around 9 MT per shot.

https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

This will generate a fireball of just over ten miles, thus fulfilling the game mechanics. Nothing in Palladium is able to output that kind of damage, not even a god that self destructs. So if that is the most destructive thing seen (it is terrible), then unless you have something to show RAI intend to demonstrate greater durability, we clearly have a maximum yield that anything can withstand.


I think we have significantly different takes on that text.
"The blast destroys everything in its path of fire, regardless of MDC" is NOT the same as "the blast destroys everything in its path, regardless of magical protections or invulnerabilities."
It's ONLY talking about MDC as a resistance factor in that passage.

And, of course, we know that if the target has millions of MDC, such as a planet, you don't ignore the damage anyway; that's why they have a damage roll listed.
So even when it comes to MDC, it doesn't literally mean "everything."

I want cold hard limits on what powers can accomplish, so that there is no arguing around the table. For example if I say they are X-men level, then no powers would be that overly powerful, but if players were at a higher level, whether Avengers or even higher say DCEU kind of powers then i would expect any powers to accomplish more.


That's a pretty smart way to house-rule things in order to achieve balance at a particular gaming table.
I like that!
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

Unread post by Rogerd »

Killer Cyborg wrote:That's a pretty smart way to house-rule things in order to achieve balance at a particular gaming table.
I like that!
:ok:


Cool ta.
Check out the HU section on Training Unlimited and jump in you want?
Just trying to balance the game somewhat.
Any ideas, more the merrier :)
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

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jaymz wrote:Problem with a mage having a gun? They go out of their way repeatedly in the books to insinuate and infer that mages shun tech in preference to their magic. To then say "well except guns" as, frankly, pretty stupid since that is the primary tech one would be discussing in these matters.
True yet in the 3rd Rifts Novel PDF a battle between two Federation of Magic Lords was added. One of the Lords uses a laser rifle and both use vibrio-blades in the closing hand to hand action. Kevin was an editor on that book so he could have changed that battle but he didn't. Seems to contradict his frequent assertions that mages should not use tech.
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

Unread post by Mlp7029 »

Rogerd wrote:A fairly common question, but what are your thoughts?

For me the PPE costs simply fail, as it is simpler to get a gun and shoot someone to death. I tend to apply a PE cost based upon level divided by two.

What do others do?
Well if you were in the Heroes Unlimited universe on a world with magic levels as high as Rifts Earth per Aliens Unlimited Galaxy Guide page 21 a mage PPE, all aspects of spells and the extra PPE you can draw from ley lines and nexus, etc would all be multiplied by at least 2. The table there only goes to 2 but a world that is so high in magic damage becomes MDC is way beyond a factor of 2. I double personal PPE, PPE recovery, PPE draw rates and damage. I use the tables for modifying spells from Through the Glass Darkly and bump range and duration by 2 categories for most spells. Some spells like Sustaini leave alone. Sustain is my model for most buff type spells for duration. I have always felt for such a supposedly magic rich world Rifts Earth wasn't really that magical so I made these mods. My players love the magical feel of my campaign.
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Re: Magic - Do PPE Cost Work?

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Topic locked for necromancy (bumping a discussion that's been dead for over a year).
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