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 Post subject: Arcane Golemancer OCC
Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:39 pm
  

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Okay...time to roll this out and put it to peer review. Please let me know what you think.

The following owes some inspiration from Rifter #25, ‘The Lost Art of Golemancy’ by Sonny Rice and Rifter #84, ‘Golems in the Mist’ by Greg Diacyzk.

Arcane Golemancer O.C.C.

“I do not ask the heavens to give my creation life...it is not life that animates my creations, it is power, the power of the universe, gathered and channeled through me.”

“Oh, far maiden, care to pose for my latest creation? Tis a poor medium I admit to imitate your beauty in, but will you lend me your time and some modesty to endow my work with even a shadow of your grace and form?”

“Any hack with basic metalworking or stone-chipping skills can chunk out a lumpish homunculi; my golems are works of ART!”

Though the Create Golem spell has been known for centuries, and spawned many self-proclaimed ‘golemancers’, these have generally been disciples of other magick schools who have picked up and applied the spell. It’s rumored that in its heyday in the Time of a Thousand Magics, dedicated golemancers could create hundreds of artificial servants and solders by themselves, raising armies of magically-empowered automatons. It was supposedly this productivity that got the golemancers targeted during the fall of the ToaTM, and led to the destruction of their schools and libraries. Few combatants wanted to risk the secrets of creating armies of completely loyal drone-soldiers falling into their hands of their enemies, so what they couldn’t hold, they typically destroyed.
The main stumbling block in golemancy is the cost of initiating a self-sustaining psuedo-life in inanimate matter. The current known spell requires a permanent sacrifice of life-force to carry out the animation. This limits the number of rituals a mage can carry out and the number of golems that can be created. Over the centuries attempts have been made to sidestep this requirement, by temporarily boosting the vitality of the caster with ‘throwaway life’ or somehow transferring, voluntarily or involuntarily, the flesh and blood cost to another being. Especially powerful beings have been known to avoid the cost altogether by brute-forcing the issue using deific meta-magic.

Recently, a new school of Golemancy has emerged. Whether this is a resurrection of old secrets or a result of rediscovery through original research remains unknown.
The Arcane Golemancer is familiar with almost all the known Create Golem-style spells, but will choose one medium(stone, metal, glass, rope, rubber, sponge. etc.) they are most comfortable with, and specialize in creating golems of that material.
Besides their magic abilities with regards to creating magic animations, Golemancers possess a good range of craftsmanship skills, especially in working the various media used to make golems. When they can, Arcane Golemancers will try to establish a workshop studio where they can construct golems, ideally near a good source of materials for their golems(such as a clay pit or quarry for creating stone golems, or an ore bed or scrapyard for metal golems). There are few itinerant golemancers by choice, and those that are encountered on the road are either moving between jobs or fleeing trouble.

The major limitations of the Arcane Golemancer are that they are virtually useless as conventional spellcasters; their discipline and energy goes almost wholly into the crafting and animation of their golem constructs. However, given enough time and resources, an Arcane Golemancer can build themselves a small army of tireless helpers and protectors.

Alignment: Any
Attribute Requirements: M.E. 14 or better, P.S.10 or better, P.E. 10 or better
Magic Abilities:
*Create Golems---The Arcane Golemancer’s focus of magic is creating and animating golems. The AG knows how to create the following golem types:
-Create Golem(Stone/Clay/Metal)(PFRPG/Rifts) ( 700/1,000 PPE)
-Create Chain Golem(Fan creation)( 1,000 PPE)
-Create Glass Golem(Fan creation)( 500 for regular glass, 600 for plexiglass, 700 for natural glass/obsidian, 900 for MDC glass)
-Create Rope Golem(Fan creation)(400 PPE for rope, 500 PPE for metal cable/wire, 800 PPE for MDC monofilament or metal cable)
-Create Rubber Golem(Fan creation)( 300 PPE for natural gum rubber golems, 450 PPE for modern vulcanized/synthetic scrap rubber golems)
-Create Wax/Candle Golem(Fan creation)(180 for an ordinary Wax Golem, 220 for a Candle Golem, 200/240 respectively if using synthetic wax)
-Create Cardboard Golem(Fan creation)( 80 PPE)
-Create Soap Golem(Fan creation)( 70 PPE)
-Create Magic Manikin(Mysteries of Magic)( 500 PPE)
-Create Tar Baby(Fan creation)( 100 PPE)

The Arcane Golemancer’s ability differs from the regular spell in a number of ways:
-Rather than lose 6 points of SDC in the process of creating a golem, the Golemancer loses 6 HIT POINTS.
-The Hit Point cost is NOT permanent
-The Golemancer regains these Hit Points at a slower rate than normal healing; it takes TWICE as long as normal (this is typically 2 HP per 24 hours for most human types, so an AG would take six days to fully recover)for the Golemancer to recover HP lost in ‘kindling’ a golem. Magic healing does NOT affect these lost Hit Points; the Golemancer must recover them by normal healing and rest. The Golemancer will typically use this period of recovery time to put the newly kindled golem through its paces and test it.
-The Golemancer can, with the expenditure of extra PPE, enhance the golem with extra abilities at the time of creation.
-Kill Switch---It isn’t well-advertised outside the Arcane Golemancers, but the AGs can, with a command, stop and freeze golems they’ve created, even those bonded to other masters. The golemancer just has to point at the golem and utter a magic phrase, and the golem will stop dead. Effective range is 50 ft +10 ft per level of experience.

*Media Specialization----The Arcane Golemancer will choose a material to specialize in, such as stone, ceramic, metal, glass, rope. etc.. Any skills in working that particular material get a +15% skill bonus and the golem wll cost 25% LESS PPE in initial activation cost.
The Golemancer can add another media to focus on later, but each additional media specialization will cost a skill selection.

(*Optional) Craftsmanship Failure
Arcane Golemancers take great pride in their workmanship and their ability to add extra features(such as those in Rifter #25, ‘The Lost Art of Golemancy’ by Sonny Rice) to their creations, something the average caster of the Crate Golem spell cannot do(or at least do well). However, sometimes a job is rushed, a concept flawed, or problems creep up before the mage can identify and correct them, or abort the job. While a Golemancer can still brute force the creation and end up with the basic golems described in the spell(s), desired added features may be missing, and other problems may manifest. If the GM desires, if the Golemancer fails a craftsmanship roll while creating their golem, and decides to go ahead and animate it anyway, the following problems may be manifested:
01-20% Weak Legs----The golem’s locomotion is poorly designed; weak or too short legs, bad joints, or stress cracks. Reduce maximum speed by HALF.
21-40%Fragile---The material of the golem is poorly placed; HALF the normal SDC/MDC
41-60% Weak Arms---The arms are poorly designed; either too thin to support their own weight or badly jointed; HALF the golem’s normal maximum strength.
61-80% Poor Balance---The golem’s mass is poorly distributed and tends to be top-heavy; -15% to sense of balance.
81-90% Clumsy--The golem is poorly jointed and is -1d4 to strike, parry, and dodge.
91-00%Special Feature Fail---Any special features such as incorporated weapons or magic spells are missing(1-50%) or badly designed or poorly executed(51-00%); they do only HALF effect/damage/range. duration.

Starting Spell Knowledge:
The Arcane Golemancer starts out with a few spells useful in working on golems and other constructs.
*Life Source
*Magic Fulcrum
*Watchguard
*Create Wood

Other Magic Spells:
Can select 6 spells from levels 1-3.
The Arcane Golemancer can learn other spells, especially those applicable to enhancing golems, in the conventional manner, but like the Technowizard, the Arcane Golemancer is not as efficient in casting these spells directly. Attempting to use these spells as personal castings costs DOUBLE the PPE.

Other Bonuses:
-Magic
+6 save vs Horror Factor
+1 to spell strength at levels 4, 8, and 12.
-Physical---Golemancers are rather physically active, and working around heavy materials requires a lot of physical effort; it shows in the following bonuses:
+2d4 SDC
+1d4 P.S.
+1d4 P.E.

Personal P.P.E.:
The Arcane Golemancer’s personal PPE reserves are their P.E. +2d6x10 +2d6 per level of experience. They recover PPE at a rate of 5 pts per hour if sleeping/resting, 10 per hour if meditating. The Arcane Golemancer can draw upon supplemental sources of PPE, such as ley lines, nexi, PPE batteries, and animal/sophont sacrifice.

O.C.C. Skills:
Literacy(Native)(+10%)
Language (Native)
Language: Two of choice(+5%)
Math: Basic(+10%)
Lore: Magic(+15%)
Basic Mechanics(+10%)
Gemology(+5%)
Art(Sculpting)(+10%)(+15% if specializing in Stone, Sponge or Rubber Golems)
Whittling(+10%)(+15% if specializing in Wood Golems/Automatons)
Metal Working(+10%)(+15% if specializing in Iron or Chain Golems)
Pottery(+10%)(+15% if specializing in Clay Golems)
Rope Works(+10%)(+15% if specializing in Rope Golems)
Glassblowing(+10%)(+15% if specializing in Glass Golems)
W.P. Blunt
W.P. Knife
Hand to Hand: Basic

O.C.C. Related Skills: Select 6 skills from the following categories, plus an additional 2 at levels 3, 7, 11 and 15.
Communications: Any
Domestic: Any(+10%)
Electrical: Any
Espionage: None
Mechanical: Any
Medical: First Aid and Paramedic only(the latter is two skill selections)
Military: None
Physical: Any, except Boxing and Acrobatics
Pilot: Any, including robots
Pilot Related: Any
Rogue: Any
Science: Any(+10%)
Technical: Any(+10%)
Wilderness: Any
Weapons Proficiencies(W.P.): Any
Secondary Skills: The character also gets to select 4 secondary skills from those listed, plus an additional 1 at levels 4, 8, and 12. These are additional areas of knowledge that do not get the advantage of the bonuses listed in parentheses. All secondary skills start at the base skill level.
Experience Tables:
Use the Technowizard Exp tables
Standard Equipment:
Tools appropriate to golem creation(hammers, chisels, carving tools, glassblowing tools, etc.). A portable forge or kiln is desirable.
Robes, overalls, filter mask & goggles, light (non-EBA) body armor mainly for working with hazardous materials.
Sketch pad and writing/sketching instruments, markers, tape measures.
Weapons to match W.P.s
Transportation will typically be a heavy hauling cart with an animal team(especially in fantasy settings) or a heavy hauler truck(in more modern settings) to haul around the tools, materials, and uncompleted golems.
Starting Money: 1d8x100 credits/g.p., plus another 1d8x1,000 credits/g.p in barter items+ 1d4x1,000 credits/g.p in precious metals or gemstones(generally reserved for completing golems)
Typically will start with enough raw materials(scrap metal, uncut stone, glass, chain) for 1d4 golems.
Cybernetics: None. If the Golemancer -must- get a prosthesis at some point, they will try to get a TW- or golemancy-derived replacement limb.

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


Last edited by taalismn on Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:49 pm
  

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Contemplating whether I should tweak by giving the AG a limited spell selection at level 1(maybe 6 spells from levels 1-3) so they're not entirely helpless as mages starting out.

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:22 pm
  

Champion

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
Posts: 1811
Comment: They/Them
I'm getting over a bug, and am sorry for not having giving this the thorough look through it so clearly deserves. i could maybe see it lifting something from the "optional" PFRPG Animator article in the Rifter, if that's what the class is called. The temporary HP loss is a nice method to keep the Golemancer from busting out an army. The class' fluff discusses methods more shady casters might try to put the cost off on victims, and while I think it's good that the method how isn't made explicit it is suggestive of some sort of necromantically-oriented golem creation.

As usual, I'm tickled pink by the work you do, and hope to choke down enough coffee to soon do right by way of response.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 12:18 am
  

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Thanks, and goodspeed to your recovery.

Yah, the way I'd initially written them, it would seem that the best chance for a young golemancer to survive to get higher levels would be to join a studio/workshop apprenticed under a senior golemancer, The lower ranks would do the heavy lifting and help craft new golems, and when the time came to kindle up a golem, they'd contribute some of their PPE to a pool to help things along. As time passes, and apprentice 'mancers grow in seniority, the master eventually lets the senior apprentice cast the final kindling spell. Ultimately the studio helps the senior apprentice build their own assistant golem as a 'graduation' present when they leave to pursue their own careers and set out to establish their own workshop, and the process repeats itself as the workshop accepts new apprentices.

This arrangement may explain the collapse of golemancy; during the wars that ended the Time of a Thousand Magicks, golem workshops and golemancers were easy concentrations of targets and area of effect attacks could catch entire workshops by surprise and wipe them out, leaving very few survivors to carry the secrets of golemancy. Ultimately what survived was the canon SDC-costly spell that could be carried out by any independent mage-practitioner with access to enough PPE.

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:14 pm
  

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Supreme Being

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Well, I don't have to write that up now. I had a similar idea for a Golem Master, but I haven't gotten around to fleshing out all the details.

:ok:

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:10 pm
  

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Okay, I've decided to give them a limited number of extra spells to start with, otherwise they'd be effectively half-mages at lower levels....

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:17 pm
  

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Mack wrote:
Well, I don't have to write that up now. I had a similar idea for a Golem Master, but I haven't gotten around to fleshing out all the details.

:ok:


You could always develop a parallel discipline.....
I'd considered at least two other methods for Golemancers to achieve their goals(half PPE cost for creating golems or a skill-based, no permanent SDC/HP success at animating golems) but there could be other schools of golem creation out there. :wink:

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:17 am
  

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Comment: This space for rent.
Yea, I may still do it if I find the time to work on it. I had some other concepts to incorporate, but translating the concepts into PB mechanics will require some effort.

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Love your neighbor.
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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:35 am
  

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I'll have to find the 'animator' article Curbludgeon mentions, but I wonder if it would be a good idea to expand on the spells to include(not integral to the class, but developed later) spells to create 'sub-golems'; golems of wood, stone, metal, or ceramic that are tougher than soap and cardboard golems, but much less Han the canon stone and metal ones. Greatly reduced in durability and capability, and with a limited lifespan(perhaps months per level of experience) but much cheaper PPE/materials-wise to produce and with less/no permanent loss...the 'burners' of the golemancy field. Maybe make the spells only available in the lower cost/penalty range to dedicated Golemancers(however many OCCs get cranked out on the forums).

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:23 pm
  

Champion

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
Posts: 1811
Comment: They/Them
The Animator is found in Rifter 26, pp31-40. It's a little better of a spellcaster than the Golemancer, mainly due to spellcasting not being halved in the manner of a Technowizard, but the class is largely on rails for which spells it learns and when. Many of the Animations have a duration, which I suppose helps to prevent army building. It doesn't possess the ability to specialize in one type of golem, which I find to be a neat addition to the concept. Some of the Animator's creations require a temporary Hit Point reduction, which can only be healed naturally, although "(a) completely natural healing booster, such as AI-Kazin, can be used." Others require a Semi-Permanent reduction, which means the points are held in reserve and will be returned upon the animation's duration coming up or the Animation being recalled, but are lost upon the Animation's destruction.

Other that the Rifter issues you've already mentioned (25&84), I remember there being some Ludicrous Magic golems in Rifter 22.

I could see maybe being able to sacrifice skill slots to gain further customizations or be able to access weird types of Golem, such as the Iron Juggernauts and Automatons of Rifts, or potentially Atlantean Crystal Guardians.

I look forward to giving this more than a once over in a bit. Thanks again for all the fun product you put out.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:59 pm
  

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Ewww....I definitely would have lifted more from the Animator had I read that article first.
Well, I'll very likely be incorporating aspects of Animator magic into expansionist Arcane Golemancer spells(because though they work in stone, Golemancy should be a -living- school of magic, not afraid to expand and adapt).

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:15 pm
  

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Alternate Material Golems
The general Create Golem spell uses clay as a base, and then magically transmutes the material(at great PPE expense) into dense stone or metal(presumably some form of iron), but what if the golem creator started out nt with clay, but with stone or metal to begin with? How might that affect the finished product? Rifter #84’s Greg Diaczyk, “Golems in the Myst”, presented wood, clay, stone, iron and animated robot body golems, but might other starter materials present different qualities to the finished product? Might gold, silver, tin, copper, bronze, quartz, obsidian, or coral golems be possible? These might trade toughness for speed, or lower creation costs, or make it easier to enhance the golem with certain other categories of spell.

Thoughts?

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 3:45 am
  

Wanderer

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:07 pm
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Comment: Brains are of little value to a warrior if they are no longer contained in his broken skull.
Personally, I think you should make it a series of OCC skills for the core Wizard class. Say make the whole heal the lost HPs a skill some wizard found described in an old manuscript that he started to practice (make it a specialization of Meditation). After he got that, he started to teach others and him and his students started to experiment and concentrate on learning golemmancy type spells.

But they're still full wizards. Most never learn the art until after 5th or 6th level. That way your players don't have to create an entire new character just to enjoy the benefits (one of my pet peeves) of new magic. Make the specialization of material more about learning the appropriate spells and/or using skill modification (from Rifter #30) to improve your odds to create a form with a craft.

All and all, to become a skilled Golemancer, it might take 4 or 5 OCC skills requiring the players to advance several levels. Or, if they're fortunate enough to have one as a master, spend 4 or 5 skills from starting wizard skills. Maybe even work the HP healing for permanent magic into the ability to enchant objects. Now that I think about it, that'd work better than the system I borrowed fro OD&D. I'll have to think about this.

Other than that, pretty interesting and a good idea.

_________________
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"Changing history to suit your purposes has a long and successful history."


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 5:18 am
  

Wanderer

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:07 pm
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Comment: Brains are of little value to a warrior if they are no longer contained in his broken skull.
How about this?

Deep Meditation: [requires the base meditation skill as a prerequisite] Deep meditation is the ancient art used by Spell Casters from before the Age of Troubles and the Elf-Dwarf war. It allowed them to recover their life force that in the modern age, would have been lost permanently. It can allow a spell caster to recover either PPE or Hit Points/SDC permanently sacrificed to power magic [GMs call on if it can recover that lost to other sources such as some supernatural creatures]. To use, the caster enters into a deep, meditation from which he/she is no longer aware of anything going on around him (unlike normal meditation). At the end of 2 hours of uninterrupted meditation, he makes his skill roll. If successful, he will recover one of the following; 1d4 HPs OR SDC, or 1d6 PPE. He may only do this twice per day, requiring 4 hours of meditation in 2 2-hour shifts, neither of which can be interrupted, although the 2 attempts may be separated.

Base Skill: 20% +4% per level. Add a bonus equal to what your ME would get from IQ at the same level.

Note: While this skill is quite capable of allowing any caster (or other PPE user) to recover any lost PPE or HPs, if the affect the energy was sacrificed to create requires a constant link back to someone (i.e. if you transfer ownership, does the new owner lose some as well), then healing up the last bit of energy might cause the magic to fade. For instance, casting the permanence spell on a power weapon spell will suffer no loss of magic if the caster heals all of his PPE. However, an Astral Mage (Nightbane, World Book 1, Between The Shadows) who heals up the last of his PPE from making an astral realm will lose his connection to the realm and he will just be a visitor rather than it's lord/master. And unless there was another person involved in making the sacrifice, the realm will undergo the Death of Realms from Rifter #9.

Note 2: This skill is NOT capable of recovering MDC lost/sacrificed. However, if the caster in question goes to a world that does not support MDC and becomes an SDC creature, than he can use this skill normally in that location. Recover his SDC and return to the MDC world fully healed.


What do you think? Having it as a skill will allow any magic user to be able to recover his magic/life force and allow the players to enjoy the benefits of discovering an ancient secret of magic without giving up their character to make a new one.

After they've got this part down, someone decides to start experimenting with new types of golems and/or specializing. Just make them addition skills needed or simply be (semi)unique spells. Or even make it part of the super secret art that allows Alchemists to make their wares without killing their ability to wield magic.

_________________
History is where we look to for answers and guidance. History explains who we are, where we came from, and everything about our world. History is full of lies.
"Changing history to suit your purposes has a long and successful history."


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:29 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
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Location: WI
taalismn wrote:
Okay...time to roll this out and put it to peer review. Please let me know what you think.

The following owes some inspiration from Rifter #25, ‘The Lost Art of Golemancy’ by Sonny Rice and Rifter #84, ‘Golems in the Mist’ by Greg Diacyzk.

Arcane Golemancer O.C.C.

I am not sure this is how I would have expanded the Golem options by creating a new OCC to contribute to the OCC bloat when it could be done more easily by introducing:
-new skill(s), to cover new knowledge that would not be covered by existing skills. For example a Wizard who knows Lore: Golem Creation and knows the Invocation might know a method to circumvent the SDC cost via some alteration (ex. Double the PPE cost and no SDC cost, or the location of the cut can reduce the SDC cost)
-Spell/Rituals. Primarily for the materials, but also any special abilities (like the specialized paralyze any golem) or even branches of magic (ex. Circle Magic might allow the creation of an army of golems similar to Circle that does animated skeleton army). Toss is skill requirement to add a new wrinkle to use some of these.
-Equipment. This might be an overlooked idea, but what about specialized equipment intended to be used by Golems (concept might also work for Mummies and Zombies) that enhance their abilities. It's an idea I've had for years but never took the time to develop.

taalismn wrote:
Alternate Material Golems
The general Create Golem spell uses clay as a base, and then magically transmutes the material(at great PPE expense) into dense stone or metal(presumably some form of iron), but what if the golem creator started out nt with clay, but with stone or metal to begin with? How might that affect the finished product? Rifter #84’s Greg Diaczyk, “Golems in the Myst”, presented wood, clay, stone, iron and animated robot body golems, but might other starter materials present different qualities to the finished product? Might gold, silver, tin, copper, bronze, quartz, obsidian, or coral golems be possible? These might trade toughness for speed, or lower creation costs, or make it easier to enhance the golem with certain other categories of spell.

I do not object to the use of alternate materials, in point of fact there are several examples in canon (Crystal in PF's IotEotW, miss-classified Astral Golem made of ectoplasm in Rifts WB12) and quite possibly Scarecrows (RCB1r). Rifter #9.5 (ludicrous magic) and #29 (war magic) utilize additional materials that are optional. However these all end up with alterations to the resulting golem as compared to the "common" golem, so it might be worth considering that alternate materials might come with some tradeoffs (no SDC cost, but they have a duration) or complications (like the scarecrow, can only really be hurt by fire and is far more intelligent/capable) which might also be used to explain their lack of wide spread use.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:58 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
[
I do not object to the use of alternate materials, in point of fact there are several examples in canon (Crystal in PF's IotEotW, miss-classified Astral Golem made of ectoplasm in Rifts WB12) and quite possibly Scarecrows (RCB1r). Rifter #9.5 (ludicrous magic) and #29 (war magic) utilize additional materials that are optional. However these all end up with alterations to the resulting golem as compared to the "common" golem, so it might be worth considering that alternate materials might come with some tradeoffs (no SDC cost, but they have a duration) or complications (like the scarecrow, can only really be hurt by fire and is far more intelligent/capable) which might also be used to explain their lack of wide spread use.


Yah...I'm pursuing the idea of some golems costing less than others, but also being less durable/capable than the baseline 'common' golem...Golems of softer materials may cost less, but are more vulnerable to certain kinds of damage(quartz golems, for example, suffer greater fracture damage on a critical strike). BY the same token, golems of softer materials may be lighter, faster, and more agile, or be easier to modify in certain ways.


As for the OCC? I wanted to create a way to circumvent the SDC cost while still making the golem-maker less likely to be unbalancing...If a new spell or combination of spells came available that negated the cost, you might wind up with a glut of magic users churning out golem armies. Making it a more exclusive skillset/profession than something more general practice, I thought, would be fair. The Golemancer can still cast spells, it's just that their focus in more intensely on making durable golems(rather than temporarily animating stuff), ideally of quality.

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:25 am
  

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taalismn wrote:
Yah...I'm pursuing the idea of some golems costing less than others, but also being less durable/capable than the baseline 'common' golem...Golems of softer materials may cost less, but are more vulnerable to certain kinds of damage(quartz golems, for example, suffer greater fracture damage on a critical strike). BY the same token, golems of softer materials may be lighter, faster, and more agile, or be easier to modify in certain way

As I said I don't object to new materials being used in the construction. And I do recognize that you're looking at the mechanical stats. However I am saying there could be other side-effects to using materials beyond just the simple (game) mechanical alterations as compared to the baseline Stone/Iron Golem. For example:
-Rubber. What if a side-effect is that it causes physical attacks (melee or projectile) to bounce off it taking half-damage, but the attack ricochets (melee attacks back to the attacker, ranged attacks random direction)
-Cardboard. What if you get a paper cut anytime you use a melee attack, even if you are wearing armor. Or what if certain types of attacks "share" the damage back to their master.
-Diamond (yeah not on the list). What if the magic has "delirious" effects on people due to the size of that diamond, women see the diamond ring a man gave them as inadequate (the largest diamond in the world is what the size of a baseball/tennis ball IINM, and now you see one that is 10ft+ tall guys are going to have a tough time using diamonds)

taalismn wrote:
As for the OCC? I wanted to create a way to circumvent the SDC cost while still making the golem-maker less likely to be unbalancing...If a new spell or combination of spells came available that negated the cost, you might wind up with a glut of magic users churning out golem armies. Making it a more exclusive skillset/profession than something more general practice, I thought, would be fair. The Golemancer can still cast spells, it's just that their focus in more intensely on making durable golems(rather than temporarily animating stuff), ideally of quality.

This come down to personal taste I guess. Really you are looking at the OCC as a way to have a control valve to prevent the creation of Golem Armies. Well the OCC doesn't really work if the mage exercises patience in building their army of Golems as even a conservative estimate means someone in this OCC (alone) can raise an army given enough time:
-@1x golem a week (this assumes they don't push themselves by eating into their HP to create multiples with each instance healing in overlapping 6 day periods)
-is 52x Golems a Year (more than a Platoon in terms of numbers)
-or 520x Golems in a Decade (small Battalion in terms of numbers, a small Brigade in 6x decades which might be out of reach for a human, but something longer lived like an Elf...)

A being with high SDC for every 100 SDC they have could make 16x Golems in a day if they have the PPE (more likely a few weeks), 160x Golems if they have a thousand SDC they're willing to give up (probably taking a few months). Now depending on how the SDC cost is paid for in an MDC creature (and how that translates moving back to an SDC world) you could potentially have people creating armies using the existing framework. Granted some of this might be optimistic since 1000s or even 100s of SDC is not very common AFAIK, but there are races that do have this potential (like Dragons).

And it isn't like there aren't other magical automatons in the setting that can't be mass produced to create armies given time like Mummies, Zombies (per text this is a thing for plantations), Skeletons/Animated Dead (via Circle Magic), a Spell Chain in Elemental (it can produce either a Golem or Zombie-like products), etc. And in some respects the Zombie might be more formidable than the Golem (higher IQ and SPD attribute, but they can also are capable of driving a wagon/car, and have potentially a better resistance to non-magical attacks).

EDIT: fixed the formatting, for some reason I couldn't edit until a reboot (it had to do with my IP address). I will add though if your Golemancer has access to Time Hole, then production rate could theoretically triple since they can heal 6days in the TH with 1 day elapsing outside the TH (depending on level this might take multiple castings).


Last edited by ShadowLogan on Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:17 pm
  

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I think that I'll repost the new golems I posted in the new spells thread over here for the sake of convenience, and any new types I hammer out and let folks decide how they want to use them(as product of a dedicated OCC or learned skill of an existing mage type).

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


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