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In most Palladium games dating back to at least Robotech 1e and TMNT the Sniper skill is an espionage skill that simply adds a +2 to strike to an aimed shot for single shot weapons only. All this for the cost of one scholastic skill. As a result, I don't think I have had a player select this skill for a player, nor have I given it to a convention pre-gen, in 30 years. The only PCs with this skill in my games had it as part of OCC/MOS/skill package without them choosing it.

I think the greatest failure of this skill is the lack of a skill for Sniping. A percentage skill that allows the PC or NPC to locate a suitable sniper position that could avoid obstacles, avoid detection, and even avoid collateral damage. This would be a skill that could be used for counter-sniping as well allowing a person trying to combat an active sniper or secure an area against the threat of a sniper.

What I am thinking about, and I am doing this for Heroes Unlimited but would probably add it to Rifts, is the following.

Available as both an Espionage and Military skill

Sniper skill 30% +5% per level (OCC/skill package bonuses would apply so if one were not stated the bonus would be the same as any comparable Espionage or Military skill)

Bonus to Camouflage skill of +20%, applies only to creating a Sniper/observation perch big enough for 1 or 2 people and only if the spot was selected using a successful Sniper skill roll

Additional +1 to aimed or called shot at level 1 with an additional +1 at levels 4 and 8
An additional +2 can be added from an appropriately skilled and equipped spotter. This means if you as a shooter have a +2 and you have a spotter you get a +4 to strike, along with the +2 from aimed shot. The spotter must be using his actions as a spotter though and cannot be attacking on his own.

So any feedback on my house modification for this skill would be appreciated as well as if any of you have used your own house skill for this.

Ranged weapons to-hit bonuses are stupid rare.

Since PP doesn't apply, you get the +3 from skill, maybe a +1 or +2 from equipment and optics, and that's about it without specialized bonuses.

The difference is, hitting a 14 called shot with a Wilks (+1) is 50/50 without sniper, and 60/40 with it.


In my opinion, the sniper skill is just fine as is.

The base for aimed shots was +3, so a +2 bonus nearly doubles that.
Virtually all of my characters who could access the skill took it.

But I agree the skill is flawed.



Detect Ambush already covers finding a good sniper position, but it doesn't cover avoiding collateral damage.
That would be covered by requiring a Called Shot, although I could see utility in giving a percent change for this in order to flesh things out a bit more.



There's not much difference between sniping and hunting many kinds of game; camouflage of various sorts, finding a good position, long-distance shooting adjustments, etc.
You might consider making it a Wilderness skill as well.

You could probably skip the percentage, replacing it with a bonus to Detect Ambush. The strike bonus would already help with Called Shots, as mentioned.
You might think of it more like the Hunting skill, which offers no specific percentage, but has bonuses for multiple other skills.

I like the bonus for having a spotter.
What would qualify somebody to be a spotter in this regard? I don't think it should be just anybody with binoculars or whatever.

In my own games, I've played with various ideas of improving the skill, specifically:
1. Making the +2 bonus a natural +2 bonus, so it counts toward critical hits. A standard character crits on nat 20, and a sniper could crit on a natural 18+ because of the bonus. If he had the right rifle, like the one from Dinosaur Swamps, he could lower that further to critting on a nat 16+.
Most people want snipers to have uber-powerful weapons, but I think the skill of deadly sharpshooting is better represented by allowing easier crits. Real-world snipers tend to use standard hunting or combat calibers, after all.
or
2. There's a power in Ninjas & Superspies called "one life, one shot, one hit, one kill" or something like that. The gist is that your character can spend attacks aiming in order to gain strike bonuses, AND the shot crits on a modified 20+.
So if a sniper with that power aims for 5 rounds, he gets +5 to strike (in addition to other bonuses). On an aimed shot he'd be +8, and with a targeting sight he'd be +9 or better, giving him nearly a 50/50 shot at critting. Better, if he spends more time aiming.
For the Sniper skill, I'd modify that a bit.
Scrapping the +2 to strike from the original version of the skill, I'd give +1 per attack/action aiming (or calculating windage, etc.) with the character's level as a maximum. So in order to spend 5 attacks to get a +5 strike bonus, you'd have to be 5th level or higher. At first level, you could only get a +1 bonus this way.
But as with the N&S power, I'd allow the modified strike roll to count for crits; anything 20 or higher does double damage (if it hits, etc.).

I don't have it handy, but you might want to also check out Rifter #23, CS Target Acquisitions Group, which covers CS snipers.

As to what you have here, I've certainly seen more than a few select the skill. The Camouflage bonus I might lower, as I think any OCC that would select the sniper skill would also select that skill, and they are likely to have a bonus to it already.



Actually I wonder if a "Sniper" Advanced Training would be appropriate. I think there is a "Marksman" AT available?

The AT's are found here if not familiar -
https://palladium-store.com/1001/produc ... anity.html

Thank you for the input everyone, it is a lot easier on me when the people on the forums poke holes in my ideas before players do.


I do understand this, like I said this is mostly about players never taking the skill or using it and as it specifically says it can only be used for aimed and called shots, with the rules for those being even more restrictive than sniper itself, it just seems to never get used. I do have a few Robotech 2e pre-gens that have the skill but I have found it is difficult for players to understand how to use it and in games with regular players they never do.

Also, with the introduction of Sharp Shooting in New West almost every player that wanted to improve weapons combat took that instead of sniper. But I understand why most people would say it is OK as I have not given it more than 2 or 3 minutes of thought in the last 35 years of playing PB games.


I asked for it so thank you for looking it over.



I have seen jaymz OCC before, and one of my versions of a modified sniper skill is just adding a few items from his OCC like penalty reductions and range increases. But that skill is easy and won't really unbalance a game at all so I saw no reason to ask for input on it.

As for making it a super skill I more wanted to make it an actual skill that advances in some way. Sniper is one of the very few skills, the others being physical skills and hunting, that do not advance and I was looking for a way to make an experienced sniper a little more deadly than a level one without breaking the combat system.

Technically right now a sniper would need Detect Ambush to find a spot to snipe from (this is not specifically stated in the description, but I agree with all of you that it is implied), Detect Concealment to make the perch (the description says it "confers the ability to construct unobtrusive shelters), and probably Camouflage to make the unobtrusive shelter even more hard to find.

I already add a ton of skills to my games to I am trying to reduce the number and am trying to modify or add to existing skills rather than add new ones. As for super skills, I tried to make the description of the abilities for this as limited as possible but you have a good point.


You are correct here, I was looking at skills like Forgery, Impersonation and even Field Armorer which all add +10% to a skill as well as having skill percentages of their own. But I had already adjusted it down to 7% in my revision after I posted this. I was more thinking about the limited utility of it and the low starting percentage of the skill, but you are correct way too high.


This is the aspect I am almost certain to keep, I will even probably add an additional +1 at level 12, as this accomplishes my major goal of having this skill advance in some way.

The called shot thing is directly from the wording of the skill

I am certain it is refering to an aimed shot (2 attacks) and an "aimed called shot" (3 attacks)


At the time I was just referring to them having the sniper skill and I was not sure what the equipment would be as it would probably differ from setting to setting.

Right now I am leaning towards a set of simple bonuses (probably a +1 to strike and a bonus to range) for a partner with either read sensor equipment or optic systems with a device that can provide accurate range, speed of target and windage when using projectile weapons.


It does and thank you.


I think what has always stopped my characters from using it is how rarely they use an aimed shot (as it takes 2 or 3 attacks during which time you cannot defend yourself without losing the attacks you put into it) and that it never advances. All WPs have increasing bonuses, as does sharpshooting, so it just falls flat.


Detect ambush is not specific about this but I agree it is the skill most likely to apply here. Truthfully the percentage skill aspect is the thing I am least attached to and am already leaning towards getting rid of.


I am leaning towards calling this "Marksmanship/Sniper" and applying it to Espionage, Military and Wilderness but that all depends on how the skill comes out. I already allow camouflage and Detect concealment as wilderness skills as well as combing and modifying tracking humans and animals into one skill and creating/detecting traps into one skill and applying to both military and wilderness so this would just be one more.

I like the hunting skill analogy and truthfully that is the direction I am heading with bonuses to Detect Ambush, Detect Concealment, and Camouflage of maybe 4% or 5% each.


I actually like this idea a lot and truthfully it might be an easier game mechanic than a range bonus or reducing penalties for target speed and size.


I am less inclined in this direction as, while it adds a lot of realism, would be difficult for a player to really use in combat which rarely goes more than 2 rounds or 6 to 8 attacks for the average player. Still might have to look at it.


TAG was the first thing I looked at when I started thinking about this. All it really has is a few skill and strike bonuses for an existing CS OCC as well as adding standard cybernetics to the character and then some basic equipment.

The Marksman AT is the second place I looked and it is really more of an extension of sharp shooting than sniper. Nothing that I really wanted for this skill.


That seems to be the consensus, but I just feel the skill needs some advancement or something to add on to make it worth it.

Thanks to everyone for the input, I am definitely not going to use the skill modifications I listed in the OP but I still want to do something with this skill so this will help.

Sorry I meant take your concept and turn it into a "Advanced Training" package. So essentially someone would already need the sniper skill to qualify for it perhaps. Then you can add your Strike bonuses listed above and whatever extra skill's and/or skill bonuses as needed.

Combine that with I think it's the "Stealth" AT package (?) and I think you got a qualified sniper available.

I see what you are getting at but really this is past the scope of what I am trying to do. All I want to do is add to the sniper skill to make it more of a skill. Not really looking to make an entire training program. Mostly, I wanted to define the skill so players could more easily make use of it in a game.

Maybe the OP should write the skill up as it would appear in a skills list. So we can comment on his idea about what the "write up" would be, now that his 'ideas' have gotten some feed-back.

One thing you might consider adding is something that the Targeting skill seems to have lost along the way. In the Fantasy setting (1E anyway), the targeting weapon proficiency adds range to thrown or fired weapons (10/20 feet per level of the skill). I don't see that as part of the skill in HU2 or RUE. You might consider incorporating something like that (scaled up for firearms ranges) into your custom sniper skill to give them the ability to push range just a little farther than anyone else.

On further checking, HU 1E had the range increase with targeting, but it was only for bows and thrown weapons. So that got dropped somewhere between the 2 editions.

I have to wonder if this might already be covered by existing skills like Detect Ambush, since a sniper position could be considered a form of Ambush. Sure this could be covered by the Sniper Skill itself, but it primarily seems concerned with shooting by the description, so I would think expanding the shooting capabilities would be more ideal, though I'm not saying it couldn't provide synergy bonuses to other skills.


I think I would leave it at the flat +2 Strike on an aimed/called shot, however I could see allowing them to:
-reduce the action cost of making an aimed or called shot by 1 (this might not apply to some older settings, but in Rifts:UE these take multiple actions normally), obviously you can't reduce it to Zero (or below) action cost.
-increase the critical range (+1 per 3 or 5 levels) of an attack
-require rolling on critical hit tables for qualifying "sniper" weapons (ex. of a table I mean RUE pg353 for when Robot/PA lose to much MDC in a given location)
-reduce the Called Shot target value (applicable in older lines, IINM Rifts-UE just requires an extra action or no bonus to strike so here I would say it gives a bonus to strike on a called shot with a weapon capable of being used by the Sniper Skill)
-I don't know if I'd go for increase the range of the weapon, but I could go for reducing the "shoot beyond effective range" option's penalties to strike.
-maybe a bonus to strike a moving target (normally this incurs a penalty)
-since those behind cover require a called shot anyway that seems to be covered by above

Both of these reasonable responses have the same root: Aimed Shots are less useful in actual combat than they used to be.
Under the RMB rules, Aimed shots were the default, so bonuses to Aimed shots were quite useful and powerful, but under RUE where it takes an extra attack, not so much.
Still, sniping is not something that one typically does while in a direct firefight with the enemy, or when somebody's rushing at you with a sword; it's something best done when the other side doesn't even know you're there, and Aiming shots is still entirely useful any time you're ambushing somebody else, and you have time to aim before initiative is even rolled.
It's something that comes up before that free round of attacks you get with Surprise, with a proper ambush. You spend an attack (or with One Life/etc. you spend multiple attacks) lining up your shot, then you fire, then initiative is rolled (unless the targets are psychic or otherwise detect the ambush before it's sprung).
If you're in an adventure/campaign where the GM is constantly ambushing YOU, and not letting you perform ambushes, that's not very useful, especially if you're also denied cover and other factors that buy you the time to make important shots.
But if you're in an adventure/campaign where the PCs get to do the ambushing a decent chunk of the time--which should be the case any time one of the PCs is a sniper as their primary or even secondary specialty--it can likely still be quite valuable.
Or in situations where the enemy has a hard-to-hit weak spot, Smaug-style, one that makes it worth the time to really focus on aim.

Anyway, you might consider allowing the Sniper skill an additional bonus (or creating a new skill with this kind of bonus): allowing characters with the skill to--at least in some circumstances--take an Aimed Shot without spending an attack to aim.
I'd consider doing this kind of thing only if the sniper is specifically NOT under heavy fire or otherwise has their concentration disrupted in the same way mages can have their spells disrupted.
That way it has the most effect when the character is shooting from concealment and/or cover, and doesn't dominate the game.
If you go this route, you might nerf or simply not boost the strike bonus, and I'd definitely consider how balance might be affected for characters who can turn invisible (like Brodkil).

I am thinking on it, will probably post something in the next few days. What I originally posted was my basic idea for the new skill but after it was picked apart so effectively not sure what I want. Still hate the current skill but after that I just have too many ideas.

Maybe just do the +2 to strike with a % skill for just the location of a sniper position / counter sniping requiring detect con or camo to create it. Maybe split the plus to strike over multiple levels and just give small bonuses to detect ambush and camo. The range or penalty reduction sounds good but hard to make that something that grows over time without serious math getting involved. If I did this I would make it more of marksmanship skill and would really be just a poor man's sharpshooting skill which arguably is what sniper already is.


I am thinking about using some of the range and reduced penalty ideas that is in the Sniper OCC by jaymz which sounds a lot like what was in this old skill but I might take a look.



Yeah, that has already been discussed above. Detect Ambush would probably, it doesn't explicitly say it by it is not much of a stretch, allow you to find a good sniper perch and Detect Concealment does explicitly say that you can use it to make a small, concealed area so those two skills will work. I just figured that somebody with the sniper skill should be better at finding a spot (for purposes of sniping and counter sniping) than a rando man at arms or Wilderness Scout with Detect Ambush.

Truthfully I kind of agree with the person above who said maybe the skill should have been called marksmanship instead of sniper, then I don't think it would bug me so much. Wouldn't make it any more useful but less of an issue personally.


Truthfully the +1 to strike with additional +1 at 4, 8 & 12 is the part that I am about certain to add. Makes it less effect at level 1 but grows at a similar rate to a weapon proficiency but it is slow enough growth to where the average PC I have had in my groups would never get above +3 and would likely just be +2.

I have already thought of and discarded the idea of reducing the number of actions for aimed and called. When I run the numbers a sniper can get off too many shots too fast which I think is more of an issue then the other changes I am thinking about.


Penalty reduction is what I am looking at for everything, range included, but I am more likely to reduce penalty for moving and maybe increase the beyond normal range to 40% or something like that.


Yes the rules in RUE and other new PB like Robotech 2e make it less useful but even in TMNT and Robotech 1e my player never really used it because in those games, like Rifts original MB, you had the old burst fire rules. This meant damage was exponentially higher with a burst than an aimed shot so they had even fewer aimed shots then.

The damage is, what I feel, should be kept in mind here. Even if you triple the bonus for sniper or reduce the number of attacks the single shot damage from most weapons is not going to damage a super hero/villain in HU or an MDC being or armor in Rifts. There might be a few weapons in South America 2 or Triax 2 that are better but for most players single shot weapons are going to be in the 3D6 to 4D6 range. In HU the damage is higher but has to contend with AR.

This is also I think why I never spent much time on this skill or why players never really asked for it. There just aren't that many weapons with high single shot damage or long range that really scream "sniper rifle".


See I have always treated Sniper like this. You had to be in a sniper position and it would require an action just to get up and moving. To me, and my first players back in the day, that just made sense. I based this not on if you were being attacked but if you either took damage or acted defensively. Someone can shoot at your perch all day long but as long as they don't hit you or you don't dodge you can still snipe.

As for making the shots count, ehhh. I mean how many things can you even seriously damage, much less incapacitate, much less destroy with a 3D6 shot? Maybe a hand weapon or a small target on a PA but not much else. This is why in the TAG story in Rifter 23 such a big deal was made about the target removing his helmet, because no single shot weapon in the CS inventory is going to do dick to EBA helmet.


Now that two of you have mentioned this maybe something like a snap fire where the bonus is half (for sniper and aim) but it takes only one attack. That would make it more useful without really breaking the combat system.

Truthfully any of this would help in HU but in Rifts, where there are very few options for a true sniper rifle, not sure if it even makes a difference. This goes to one of my biggest complaints with Rifts going back to the beginning and that is weapons are just on a continuum for worse to better. Weapons with higher damage tend to also have a bonus to strike or be lighter or both and very few weapons have limits to rate of fire.
The only weapon I can remember a PC having in Rifts was the NE Shoulder Canon from Phase World SB. Its high weight and low payload with a 2D4X10 MDC single shot damage for 6000 ft was perfect for a sniper. If I were writing it I would have limited the shots per melee but still good balanced weapon. That player frequently used it as a sniper rifle but he spent the extra skill and took sharp shooting. He saw no benefit at all to sniper.

Think of a high-powered laser that can only fire twice a melee and is really heavy and awkward but has high damage and longer range. Things like that would really make the sniper skill more valuable but that is another discussion. Right now I just want to see if I can make this skill more useful without breaking the game.

In those rules, modern weapons could be dodged as easily as melee, IIRC, so strike bonuses were relevant any time you were dealing with an enemy that was trying to dodge your attacks.
I don't recall if either of those books had anybody with auto-dodge, but it's still good to avoid a situation where your opponent has enough attacks to dodge everything you throw at them, and still get some licks in, or when an opponent was trying to escape so focused on dodging.
Also, ammunition is a factor because bursts/sprays use more ammunition. If your character is in a mecha with unlimited laser fire, that's not a factor; burst away. But if your character isn't made of money, and/or is trying to avoid civilian casualties, and/or has a rare weapon with uncommon ammunition, single shots again become a good idea.
Firing 6 shots to do x2 damage isn't always a bargain, and neither is using 15 rounds to inflict x5 damage, much less using 30 rounds and two attacks to inflict x10 damage.
I mean, I have to agree that it very often IS a bargain; early Rifts was so deadly we tended to panic and rip off a clip any time something seemed particularly threatening, because we never knew if this might be our last battle. At the same time, if we used too much ammunition while out in the wilderness we'd run out of ammunition long before we ran out of enemies, and we'd also die.
And if we used too much ammo while in town, we'd spend so much money on ammunition that we wouldn't be able to afford armor repairs, and we'd also die.
With TMNT and Robotech, armor repairs aren't as much of a factor; either you naturally recover your lost personal SDC/HP, or the RDF repairs your mecha free of charged, I believe. That would change the dynamic in favor of burst fire.
And those were before the burst/spray rules nerfed the damage for Long and Full Clip bursts down to x3 and x7 damage respectively.
So I can see where you're coming from there. There were many cases in which burst fire was in fact superior, and Aimed shots were a sucker's bet.



Okay, a lot here might well come down to a personal gripe of mine. Or it might not.
My gripe is that players and GMs seem to simultaneously:
a) want their opponents to be equipped with top-level gear in order to "have a fair fight" or "present a challenge,"
BUT ALSO
b) want to one-shot-kill their opponents, and/or otherwise dominate combat with little time and effort.

As a general rule, I see a lot of this kind of conflict messing up games simply because the GMs insist on putting their PCs up against people in Heavy Deadboy as a default, and avoiding using enemies in Homespun or Plastic Man armor. But then they want deadlier weapons in order to overcome this top-level EBA they're insisting on using.
If you follow.
I don't know if that applies to you or yours on any level; I just wanted to point out something I see pretty commonly in various rifts groups/players.

Take a good Rifts sniper rifle like a JA-11. It does 4d6 MD, for an average of 14 MD per shot.
This isn't great damage against a foe in decent EBA in direct combat; even home made armor at 30 MDC would take 3 shots to get through on average. That's not great, but it's not horrible either.
It's certainly better than going up against old style Heavy Deadboy (80 MDC, requiring an average of 6 shots), or new style Heavy Deadboy (100 MDC, requiring an average of 9 shots).
But that's if you're shooting at the main body, and in a sniping situation or any other situation where you can make a Called Shot, that's not necessarily the best tack to take.
Head shots aren't all that great either because as you point out, most helmets inexplicably have about as much MDC as the Main Body. But not all.
Homemade armor (RGMG 193) has 30-40 main body MDC for light, 50-65 for medium, but only 20 MDC per helmet. This drops it down to two average shots to take a person out, if you can hit the head reliably.
Now, this is where RUE kind of crippled snipers, because you no longer need good aim to shoot somebody in the head; you only need to spend an extra attack. And you need to spend that extra attack no matter HOW good you are. If I was running a sniper campaign/adventure, I'd consider going back to RMB Called Shot rules, or otherwise changing this horrible situation that makes little sense.
Granted, heads are often considered "small targets" and impose a -3 or -4 penalty to strike, so strike bonuses aren't irrelevant, but it's a fact that they're certainly less relevant than they used to be.
Bah.

Anyway, remember that 14 MD is the average of the JA-11, and there's a decent chance that a sniper could take out a 20 MDC helmet with a single shot. Worse than even odds, but still fairly decent.
And with double damage from a Crit, that helmet is flat-out gone, dropped to -8 MDC.
(now, this is another place where RUE crippled snipers, with the GI-Joe rule. The rule does have "common sense" limits, though, and I'd argue that being dropped to -40% of your armor's total capacity should be enough for some mega-damage to carry through to the soft target underneath. You know, assuming that I played with that rule in the first place, which I avoid.)

And you might be under-estimating the ability of a good limb-removal when it comes to taking the fight out of somebody; in a mega-damage environment like Rifts, it's usually a pretty good fight-ender to blow off a person's arm or leg.
At x2 damage for critting, a JA-11 would have decent--if sometimes less than 50%--odds of killing or crippling any squishy wearing any of the following fairly common armors from the RGMG:
Bandito (30 MDC helmet) (18 MDC arm) (24 MDC leg)
Crusader (35 MDC helmet) (20 MDC arm) (30 MDC leg)
Fury Beetle Armor (30 MDC helmet)
Gladiator (28 MDC arm) (35 MDC leg)
Homemade (20 MDC helmet) (no listed MDC for arms or legs)
Huntsman (30-50 MDC helmet) (No listed MDC for arms or legs)
Plastic Man (35 MDC helmet) (15 MDC arms) (20 MDC legs)
Traditional Dogboy (20 MDC helmet) (12 MDC arms) (20 MDC legs)
Heavy Dogboy Armor (35 MDC arms)
Juicer Plate (20 MDC helmet) (15 MDC arm) (15-20 MDC leg)
Super-Hide Juicer Armor (30-50 helmet) (25-35 MDC arm) (20-70 MDC leg)
NG Vaqueros (32 MDC arm)
NG Buffalo (30 MDC arm) (28 MDC leg)
NG Maverick (10 MDC for a hat, 35 for a helmet) (12 MDC arm) (15 MDC leg)
NG Range Rider (10 MDC hat, or 35 MDC helmet) (30 MDC main body) (12 MDC arm) (15 MDC leg)

Also, keep in mind that Patchwork armor has 15-20% less MDC than normal versions, and Used & Reconditioned Armor has 4d6% MDC less than brand new armor. If the used armor has been patched and repaired it will have 20-30% less MDC, and if it has been battered or heaviliy patched it has 30% less armor.
So if you're up against somebody in used old-style Heavy Deadboy armor, the helmet might be dropped from 50 MDC down to 35 MDC, putting it in range of a sniper crit with a JA-11 taking it out.
With a better gun, the odds increase.
A C-27 Plasma canon does 6d6 MD, a C-29 does 1d6x10, for example. The range isn't as good as the 4,000' that the JA-11 and some other weapons get, but the C-27 can still fire 1600' easily, with gusts up to 2080' if you take a -5 penalty to strike (here is where strike bonuses again matter).
And the C-29 can fire 1400', or 1820' with a -5 penalty.
(also, I don't think it would be an unreasonable house rule to allow the +30% range for -5 strike to become "+30% range per -5 to strike" either, allowing for even further ranges in the name of sharpshooting and sniping. )

I do agree that the average sniper rifle having about 2d6 MD per shot is low, but there's nothing wrong with getting an above-average rifle.
With the low-end sniper weapons, I consider them to be intended for use against soft targets primarily, against unarmored or SDC armored or barely armored foes.
Which brings me to another thing about Rifts, which I consider part of the setting: armor technology has outpaced weapons technology to a large degree.
I think of it as a feature, not a bug. It makes things interesting.

Anybody wearing EBA or better is effectively an Armored Unit, and snipers are NOT the go-to choice for taking out armored units as a rule.
Like you said, it's best to wait until they take their helmet off, with the sniper waiting and watching silently from the shadows until the opportunity to strike is ideal.
People can only stay in EBA so long, after all.
I'd consider sniping in Rifts Earth to mostly be about that kind of thing, with the more glorious "I took out somebody in heavy EBA in a single shot" to be pretty rare, with the role of snipers changing a bit in face of new technology.



Well, I always liked the Shemarrian Rail gun, but they're hard to find, harder to obtain, and pretty darned bulky/heavy.
For the most part, I get where you're coming from and I agree, which is why I'm in favor of giving Snipers easier crits and/or better crit damage.
My main issue when people design a "sniper rifle" that can one-shot-kill a target in heavy EBA on an average non-crit, is that pretty much any weapon that can be used for a single-shot attack can be used in some form for rapid fire.
Take the ATL-7, with its 2d6x10+20 MD. It uses an entire E-clip, so people are okay with that kind of damage, and argue that it's not overpowered, BUT hook that puppy up to a nuclear power supply, or any other system where the power drain isn't a factor, and the situation changes.
Heck, for giggles I wrote up a gatling gun version of it that used like 6 ATL-7s for incredible damage; there's not much real in-game reason why such a thing couldn't exist.
And when vehicle mounted energy weapons tend to not go above 6d6 MD, I think it makes little sense to have too many small arms that inflict much more damage than that.
And if you have a single-shot weapon that does 1d6x10 MD or better, even if there's somehow a very good reason why it wouldn't/couldn't be modified to be rapid fire, it'd still be more effective in the hands of a dual-wielding gunman than a sniper.
What makes sniper weapons special is their accuracy, not just their power, and I think that's best reflected via critical hits rather than pure damage.
(As I've already over-explained )



I agree that 3d6 is low.
BUT by the rules, even 1d6 MD can take out a dinosaur with hundreds of MDC, if you shoot it in the right spot, as per Dinosaur Swamps.
The rules are vague, but they're there, and they're official.

Other than that, a 3d6 MD shot could take out most energy pistols (12 MDC according to CB1 p. 14), small vibro-blades (12-20 MDC, and I assume the 20 is for larger stuff like swords).
A Hand grenade happens to have 2 MDC. Wouldn't take much to destroy one, and I don't think a GM would be out of line deciding that it explodes when you kill it.
Fusion blocks have 5 MDC, mini missiles have 1-2 MDC, short range missiles have 5 MDC, Medium range missiles have 10 MDC, LRMs have 20 MDC.
Typical bionic hand/claw has 5 MDC.
Typical bionic forearm blaster has 10 MDC
Typical bionic retractable forearm blades have 10 MDC, and vibro have 12 MDC

Depending on how the GM calls things, even without boosting crit options via houserules, a sniper with a decent (3d6-4d6 MD) rifle could:
-Take down dinosaurs and other large living targets in a single shot.
-Target exposed missiles on mecha/bots/vehicles, detonating them and inflicting significant or massive damage to the target.
-Target any exposed grenades on infantry, detonating the grenade for significant or massive damage
-Take out minor weapons like pistols, bionic weapons.

Which isn't really all that bad, even if they can't just heart-shoot or head-shoot and reliably kill most people through EBA.



Seems reasonable to me.


I hope I've helped with some of my thoughts/views, and good luck with you project!

Oh, and in case you're interested, here's a link to some homebrew sniper weapons I designed a while back (along with a bunch of other homebrew stuff):
viewtopic.php?p=2615462#p2615462

Then why not just have the Sniper Skill provide synergy bonuses to appropriate skills instead since someone acting as a "sniper" is likely to also take those skills that already cover aspects that you want to add. As it is you seem to be trying to turn a single skill into a skill package.


I do agree the name is somewhat misleading, I can sort of see why they went with it (more pop culture definition than technical).


I think it might be more accurate to describe what I was going for is that the Sniper skill would reduce any multi-action attack (w/sniper weapon) cost by one. In terms of game impact, the firing rate is not any different than the older RMB-era rules (where Called/Aimed shots took up 1 attack, as opposed to now requiring 2-3) so unless you thought the RMB-era rules allowed too many shots (granted RMB wasn't 2AFL).


I'd leave the beyond normal range increase alone for RUE-style rules), mechanically 30% base increase means +300ft for every 1000ft of range at a flat negative (-5 strike). This is actually pretty generous when you compare it to say the RMB-style rules where it's handled in 25ft increments at -4strike per increment (300ft = -48 to strike) where I could see changing the increment value.

You could try borrowing a bit of the One Shot, One Life, One Hit, One Kill ability from N&S, and allow those with the skill to add 1 to strike for every minute they spend aiming at their target.

One Shot, One Life, One Hit, One Kill ability, N&S page 122.
1st: it's a martial arts technique, not a "skill". So that limits it to chars that meat the requirements to acquire MAT's.
2nd: it's bonus is +1 to ranged shot per melee round. With another bonus.
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As per a modified sniper skill could have something like the 1S1L1K MAT....yes...but it would be more limited.
I would limit the total bonus to +1 to ranges strike,+1 every other level gained. With Beast's idea of it costing a minute for each bonus to the ranged strike, Without that MATs other bonus.

It might be that a sniper char could have this modification as part of their class skills. But other man-at-arms chars would need to use a 2nd sniper skill skills slot to acquire this modification.

Before I dive in I wanted to post a couple of reminders.

First, in any comparison between the old combat rules (Robotech 1e, RMB, even HU) and the newer combat systems (RUE, Robotech 2e, etc.) you have to remember the new system has a penalty to dodge weapon fire that the old did not have. In many ways it is a LOT easier to hit a target than it use to be.

Second, a character without a WP has penalties for any attack other than a single shot so the WP bonus of +1 or more is misleading because the skill eliminates those penalties in addition to providing a bonus and opening new avenues to attack.

Fianlly, if you are playing in a game where the GM doesn't allow MaA to have Sharp Shooting from New West than the sniper skill might be more appealing.


Exactly. For most my players finishing the bad guys quick was considered more important than conserving ammo as they rarely ran out. Also I adopted modifications for burst firing and use of cover long before those changes came through in the books so they tended to rely on cover from each other when they needed to reload.


This is actually my point in a way. The entire point of a sniper is to one shot an opponent or their gear. When you can't do that the skill itself, and as discussed even aimed shots, becomes less useful. I find weapons that can one shot characters, PC or NPC, to be a little unbalancing but if they are done correctly with the proper limitations, it could add to the usefulness of the skill.


I would agree, except, there are weapons from 1D4X10 MDC grenade launchers to p-beams and pulse weapons that can do up to 1D6X10 MDC it wouldn't be to game bending if there was a sniper weapon that did single shot damage in that range if it had appropriate limitations.

Again the NE shoulder cannon is a good example. That is an excellent sniper weapon as well as being a heavy weapon, just depends on how you use it. Like a 50 cal.

As for the various grades and classes of armors, I have used it all. In the early days most of the opposition had things like plastic man, huntsman and bushman. These days patchwork is a favorite for bandits and I often have opponents in better armor already have some damage.

In both HU and Rifts the other problem with sniper skill is a lot of targets are super beings or monsters with high MDC/SDC & AR so single shots not doing much.


You bring up a major problem with a lot of TTRPGs but definitely PB and double for Rifts and that is the inconsistency of damage. Having a vehicle's primary weapon doing less damage than an infantry rifle is hard to work around. To me this is best handled by rate of fire/overheating limitations which few weapons in Rifts use or making it so heavy that it has penalties when not being used in a sniper situation.

If the ATL-7 had a specific limit on rate of fire, regardless of payload, that would eliminate the problem you are talking about. I do agree that accuracy is a major component of a sniper rifle, but so is damage and even stealth. If you have a rifle that is hard to track back to its source, in addition to having a good strike bonus, then a low damage ability would still be worth it,

I will say you are wining me over on the expanded critical hit idea though.


My general rule on explosives is that most, especially fusion blocks and most missiles, must be armed to really blow up but there should be a chance depending on the explosive and what it is hit with.

This is in fact what I have seen characters with low powered weapons do is hang back and hit small targets to disrupt the enemy while higher damage players do the killing so even the current sniper skill would help with that. The problem is that most PCs that do this can't actually take sniper.


Thank you and yes very helpful.


These are pretty interesting. I especially like the rail gun and I have been thinking about bringing in the protoculture powered sniper rail gun from the recent robotech books, just change it to be a mini-nuke.


Interesting. You cover a lot of the territory I wanted without making it overpowered. I will say that I agree with an earlier post that the +10% may be too high. Some good ideas to consider though.

The Called Shot and Blood Loss rules are interesting, but I haven't had too much call to house rule those. Still interesting changes you made.


I can understand why you think that but if you look at other espionage skills they often cover a lot of ground. Intelligence covers what would be dozens of specialties, maybe hundreds, and skills like impersonation can allow a player to do multiple things. Sniper is a simple +2 to strike on only a certain kind of attack in certain situations and you need 3 other skills to really make the most out of it. To me this is an unofficial skill package that could easily be reduced to one or two skills.

And again, as is this skill can not compete with Sharp Shooting and is not even as effective the regular WP over the long term (those skills grow over time). This really gets bad when you look at all the skills you can get for one espionage skill selection.


Agreed. The name has a cool factor that just isn't matched by the stats.


Like I said in the begining of this you have to be careful comparing RMB combat rules with RUE. That penalty to dodge gun fire is a, pardon the pun, game changer. If you fired 4 aimed shots before you had a much lower chance of hitting than you do with 2 now.

It is an interesting idea, but if I use it I am leaning towards the snap fire option.


If I changed this at all I might only take 1 to 3 off the top of the penalty. I do agree that it would be powerful but it would make the skill more useful all on its own and sniper should be able to do long range attacks.


I pulled N&S from the shelf and marked the page. I will have to give it a read before I make any final decisions.

Thanks again everybody. It has been interesting diving into a skill that, as I said before, I probably haven't thought 2 minutes about in 30 years.

Actually, a lot of skills in various categories cover a lot of ground it isn't just espionage. As it is the Sniper Skill (RAW) is a general skill covering the overlap between its two (military) roles: marksman and sniper. IMHO that means unless you are planning to separate the skill into two separate role optimized skills, added benefits should take both roles into consideration.

The simple +2 strike on Aimed/Called shots is actually pretty potent from a strictly mechanical bonus perspective. Under the RMB-style rules, that translates to having an Aimed Shot bonus SIX LEVELS higher than their current WP skill (+1 per 3 levels after level 1), under RUE-style rules I'm not sure as it will vary from applicable WPs but it will still be a several levels higher.

Comparing the Sniper Skill to other Synergy to WP Skills (Targeting in RUE, Fencing in RUE, Paired Weapons in RUE, Roping in RUE, and Sharpshooting in WB14) in terms of leveled progression for strike bonus (Roping is Entangle for WP Rope), the Sniper Skill's flat bonus isn't unusual. In fact, of the 6 synergy WP skills in RAW that came to mind, only 2 actually use level progression and those seem able to function without WPs IINM unlike the others that only seem to work if you have a WP.


While a sniper should be able to do long range attacks, there are factors that will impact how far the weapon's range can be extended before it starts to impact performance (damage and accuracy). As it is right now 30% seems to be the implied edge before you get into non-accuracy stuff, so any range enhancement should be very limited (maybe even tied to level, like 1% per 2-3levels, maybe even allowing them to change when penalties kick in when shooting beyond listed effective range).

It's probably also worth considering that dedicated sniper weapons tend to out range regular infantry weapons (unless packing Mini-Missiles or PA-class Rail Guns). For example, from MercOps we have the Wilk's 587 Sniper Laser Rifle has a range of 3000ft and the NG-SR3 Laser Rifle range of 2400ft (the NG-SSL20 is 2000ft and the WI-SR15 Sniper Rifle is 2600ft), and the JA-11/9 (RUE) Assassin laser if 4000ft. Compared to basic infantry rifles in RUE or MercOps (and elsewhere) which have a range of 1600-2000ft typically (4000ft is reserved for the heavy weapons like Rail Guns). So, if the Sniper is using a purpose-built weapon, they already have the range advantage built-in unless going up against mecha or heavy weapons emplacements IMHO.

Looking at the "Synergy" Skills, as you label them, in Rue I have some thoughts:
Targeting can add to an existing skill but it works on it's own and advances by level.

Paired weapons allows for all new avenues of attack and defense in melee combat so while it does not advance by level it does almost double a characters combat capability in melee, especially damage. Also, many characters get this free as part of their hand to hand so most players don't even spend a skill on it.

Roping is what made me think of modifying Sniper after all these years because it has an actual rope work skill percentage as well as combat bonuses.

Quick Draw would be another one of these synergy skills and it does not advance by level but it does increase with PP so it can be a lot more useful than sniper depending on the character and it can be used far more often.

Fencing is the one where I think you have the best point but it is a Physical skill so far less limited and provides for a bonus to damage as well as strike and parry. To be honest I have very few people take this skill either but more than sniper that is for sure.
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I want to thank everyone for their input. It gave me a lot of things to think about and even some new directions for the skill modification that I really like.

I also want to thank people for their criticism of my original modification. The bonuses and areas covered were way too much for one skill and I really appreciate the honest input.

That being said I have a new version of the skill for people to tear apart if they so choose so please read below.

First as a reminder here is the current skill as published.


The new skill with my reasoning below

1- I really felt that this skill needed to be available as both Espionage and Military given its real life uses. You can make an argument that it might work in Rogue or even Wilderness as well but

2- I did decide to include a skill percentage here for locating a shooting position and for use in counter-sniping. The Detect Ambush skill could cover this but it is not explicit and that skill already covers a lot so I wanted to make this a bit more specialized.

3- The ability to create a hidden position was not included as that is explicitly covered under both Camouflage and Detect Concealment. Also, many sharp shooters have no idea how to create such things.

4- Most modern WPs start at a+1 and end up as a +7, 8, or even 9 by the time they reach level 14 which can be used in all circumstances and many of those skills can be taken as secondary skills. I felt that a limited use skill should have a little more than +2 and as I said I wanted it to build with experience.

5- Also explicitly added when this skill can be used.

6- I decided to use the reduced number of attacks for aimed or called shots with the spotter. I thought this would make sense in game as the shooter is now just concerned with shooting and out of game as two players would be using their combat time towards this.

7- The penalty reduction may seem like a lot but remember it is just penalty reduction so if you have a level 5 spotter but the moving penalty is only -3 those extra 2 levels don’t add in to anything else.

8- I decided not to extend range past the 30% as I agree with Shadow Logan that you are likely to get into damage reduction and other problems.

So that’s the skill as of this moment. It has everything I wanted and in the small testing I did it seemed to make the sniper skill a little more useful without completely altering the game.