Seljuk Witches?

Dimension Books & nothing but..

Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones

User avatar
Warshield73
Megaversal® Ambassador
Posts: 5110
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
Comment: "I will not be silenced. I will not submit. I will find the truth and shout it to the world. "
Location: Houston, TX

Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by Warshield73 »

So I have been toying around with a Seljuk villain for a convention game and I wanted him to be unique but couldn't come up with anything. Then I saw this thread on Witches and I got thinking could a Seljuk become a witch?

They can't become wizards and the like but could they become a witch or maybe get mystically bestowed abilities from Heroes Unlimited? If yes could they become a Warlock or something like that were the powers come from outside.
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2
Curbludgeon
Hero
Posts: 1183
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
Comment: They/Them

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

I'd say the line "no magical O.C.C. can be taken by this race" in the O.C.C.s entry is pretty conclusive. The species' description talks about there previously having been shamans, which were among those made unavailable, for whatever that says about granted casters in general. That said, there are still some edge cases. A Seljuk Cosmo-Knight can use P.P.E., for example, and a Psionic Seljuk should be able to activate a technowizard item. Whether or not a non-psionic Seljuk Cosmo-Knight can activate a TW item could be up in the air.
User avatar
drewkitty ~..~
Monk
Posts: 17737
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Eastvale, calif
Contact:

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

As an NPC I see no mechanics problem with it, cause they get their PPE from their pact. Except for how would the SN entity contact the Seljuk to make the pact. With a NPC that is a 'handwavium' situation the GM can do fiat.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
User avatar
Warshield73
Megaversal® Ambassador
Posts: 5110
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
Comment: "I will not be silenced. I will not submit. I will find the truth and shout it to the world. "
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by Warshield73 »

Curbludgeon wrote:I'd say the line "no magical O.C.C. can be taken by this race" in the O.C.C.s entry is pretty conclusive. The species' description talks about there previously having been shamans, which were among those made unavailable, for whatever that says about granted casters in general. That said, there are still some edge cases. A Seljuk Cosmo-Knight can use P.P.E., for example, and a Psionic Seljuk should be able to activate a technowizard item. Whether or not a non-psionic Seljuk Cosmo-Knight can activate a TW item could be up in the air.

My basic problem is that there are several races that do not study magic but can become priests or witches and the like so I was thinking along those terms. Also it does seem that almost an mortal race can become one so I was thinking along those lines.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:As an NPC I see no mechanics problem with it, cause they get their PPE from their pact. Except for how would the SN entity contact the Seljuk to make the pact. With a NPC that is a 'handwavium' situation the GM can do fiat.

Witches in general are NPCs so yes definitely. I was actually thinking about a seljuk so obsessed with his peoples magical past and how he was cut off from magic by his ancestors that he sought the being out.

Of course with covid and no conventions this year, both local conventions I normally attend have been canceled as has POH, this will certainly just drop into my ever growing pile of unused plot ideas and NPCs.
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2
User avatar
drewkitty ~..~
Monk
Posts: 17737
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Eastvale, calif
Contact:

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

thought/idea: Maybe the npc was a eugenics (see PU2) chimera with other race's genes that can use magic.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
Curbludgeon
Hero
Posts: 1183
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
Comment: They/Them

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

I'd argue there's a difference between a species that due to various cultural factors doesn't study magic and one for whom the potential was explicitly burned out. In addition to the line under the O.C.C. entry, the Magic Powers entry states: None. Can never use or learn magic - no P.P.E.. Of course, a few lines earlier it does list them as have 1d4 P.P.E., but that's editing for you. Obviously it's more important to Rule of Cool this sort of thing than handwring over rules, and playing against type is great, but even if I had a Seljuk character ran through the Book of Heroes treatment I'd lean towards rerolling any magical results. Plus with reptilian humanoids having maybe the second most diverse variety of treatments across Palladium you can't help but trip over eight shades of lizard wizard, so a bit of role protection isn't all bad.

As a tangent, should a Witch's granted abilities suffer the same penalities as a learned or intuitive practitioner of magic when bionics are forced upon them? In what way if any is the written blanket ban on such different than in the above?
User avatar
Fenris2020
Adventurer
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 pm
Comment: Go woke, go broke.

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by Fenris2020 »

Seljuk can become Cosmo-Knights.
Cosmo-Knights can Fall.
Fallen Knights can become pseudo-Ley Line Walkers, among other things.
You are a truly worthy foe! I shall howl a dirge in your honour and eat your heart with pride!
User avatar
RockJock
Knight
Posts: 3792
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:01 am
Location: Nashville.....ish....

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by RockJock »

I kinda fall into the NPC can do it, but I probably wouldn't allow a player to do it. The fallen CK is the perfect example. A Falle Cosmo Knight is 100% able to become a witch, and if it the power level works for your game then go for it.
RockJock, holder of the mighty Rune Rock Hammer!
User avatar
Fenris2020
Adventurer
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 pm
Comment: Go woke, go broke.

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by Fenris2020 »

RockJock wrote:I kinda fall into the NPC can do it, but I probably wouldn't allow a player to do it. The fallen CK is the perfect example. A Falle Cosmo Knight is 100% able to become a witch, and if it the power level works for your game then go for it.


A Fallen Knight is about as powerful as a Full Conversion 'Borg.
You are a truly worthy foe! I shall howl a dirge in your honour and eat your heart with pride!
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by eliakon »

Fenris2020 wrote:
RockJock wrote:I kinda fall into the NPC can do it, but I probably wouldn't allow a player to do it. The fallen CK is the perfect example. A Falle Cosmo Knight is 100% able to become a witch, and if it the power level works for your game then go for it.


A Fallen Knight is about as powerful as a Full Conversion 'Borg.

A Knight, Fallen or Cosmo though is not the old race either.
"Their bodies and souls are seared and reshaped by cosmic forces."
and
"they are supernatural beings"
seems pretty clear cut that a CK Seljuk who falls is a Fallen Knight, not a Seljuk.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Fenris2020
Adventurer
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 pm
Comment: Go woke, go broke.

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by Fenris2020 »

eliakon wrote:
Fenris2020 wrote:
RockJock wrote:I kinda fall into the NPC can do it, but I probably wouldn't allow a player to do it. The fallen CK is the perfect example. A Falle Cosmo Knight is 100% able to become a witch, and if it the power level works for your game then go for it.


A Fallen Knight is about as powerful as a Full Conversion 'Borg.

A Knight, Fallen or Cosmo though is not the old race either.
"Their bodies and souls are seared and reshaped by cosmic forces."
and
"they are supernatural beings"
seems pretty clear cut that a CK Seljuk who falls is a Fallen Knight, not a Seljuk.



:lol: :lol:
It's an OCC.
Is a Seljuk who becomes a Space Pirate also not a Seljuk?
Is a human who becomes a 'Borg no longer a human?
Hmmmm....
Both have been reshaped in order to follow their new life-path.
They are still their race.
You are a truly worthy foe! I shall howl a dirge in your honour and eat your heart with pride!
User avatar
(SHIFTY)
Adventurer
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by (SHIFTY) »

Are Seljuk still around? I thought I read something that they were being wiped out by some plague.
User avatar
Warshield73
Megaversal® Ambassador
Posts: 5110
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
Comment: "I will not be silenced. I will not submit. I will find the truth and shout it to the world. "
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by Warshield73 »

(SHIFTY) wrote:Are Seljuk still around? I thought I read something that they were being wiped out by some plague.

There population is in the hundreds of billions across 3 galaxies and the plague is just starting so it will take a long time. Assuming its not cured they will be a major part of the CCW for centuries.
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2
User avatar
MadGreenSon
Explorer
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:58 pm

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by MadGreenSon »

Fenris2020 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Fenris2020 wrote:
RockJock wrote:I kinda fall into the NPC can do it, but I probably wouldn't allow a player to do it. The fallen CK is the perfect example. A Falle Cosmo Knight is 100% able to become a witch, and if it the power level works for your game then go for it.


A Fallen Knight is about as powerful as a Full Conversion 'Borg.

A Knight, Fallen or Cosmo though is not the old race either.
"Their bodies and souls are seared and reshaped by cosmic forces."
and
"they are supernatural beings"
seems pretty clear cut that a CK Seljuk who falls is a Fallen Knight, not a Seljuk.



:lol: :lol:
It's an OCC.
Is a Seljuk who becomes a Space Pirate also not a Seljuk?
Is a human who becomes a 'Borg no longer a human?
Hmmmm....
Both have been reshaped in order to follow their new life-path.
They are still their race.


That's my thought too. Cosmo Knight is not a race, it's not in the genes, it's not a species or anything. If your dad was a Cosmo Knight you aren't a half Cosmo Knight, you're just a <whatever race here>.

Cosmo Knights are not a Cosmo Race who get their Cosmo Powers from their Cosmo Genes. A Seljuk Cosmo Knight is a Seljuk, who is a Cosmo Knight. Much like how a Seljuk Robot Pilot is a Seljuk, who is a Robot Pilot.

Seljuks are prevented from taking a magic OCC because their race's innate magical potential was sacrificed in an epic ritual that made their planet safe to live on. They aren't immune to magic or anything, they just have no innate ability to do magic anymore because of a ritual sacrifice.

Much like Cosmo Knights, Witches aren't about innate ability. Innate ability has nothing to do with being a Witch. Making a Witch Pact is allowing an Alien Intelligence or Demon/Deevil Lord to own, or lease, your soul in return for power. It's not your power. It's their power and they can withhold it or take it back if they choose to.

So yeah. Since it's all borrowed power, I'd say a Seljuk can be a Witch.
User avatar
Crimson Dynamo
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:23 pm
Location: The Motherland

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by Crimson Dynamo »

Is there a particular reason that the NPC is a Seljuk rather than just any of the other countless number of lizard-like alien species and mutants that exist? Why try to shoehorn an O.C.C. into a race that doesn't support it when you can just select another race? Especially in a Phase World/dimension-based campaign that is absolutely chock-full of races.
User avatar
Fenris2020
Adventurer
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 pm
Comment: Go woke, go broke.

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by Fenris2020 »

Crimson Dynamo wrote:Is there a particular reason that the NPC is a Seljuk rather than just any of the other countless number of lizard-like alien species and mutants that exist? Why try to shoehorn an O.C.C. into a race that doesn't support it when you can just select another race? Especially in a Phase World/dimension-based campaign that is absolutely chock-full of races.



I'd do it because it's unexpected.
Everyone "knows" the seljuk can't use magic, then suddenly...
You are a truly worthy foe! I shall howl a dirge in your honour and eat your heart with pride!
User avatar
Warshield73
Megaversal® Ambassador
Posts: 5110
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
Comment: "I will not be silenced. I will not submit. I will find the truth and shout it to the world. "
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by Warshield73 »

Fenris2020 wrote:I'd do it because it's unexpected.
Everyone "knows" the seljuk can't use magic, then suddenly...

To me the unexpected aspect is only part of it. I really wanted to focus on the idea of people wanting what they can't have and what lengths they would go to get it. A Seljuk fascinated by magic can't pursue it. Also, if they are serving one side or the other in the Minion War, how far can that go?
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2
User avatar
SolCannibal
Champion
Posts: 2392
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:25 pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Re: Seljuk Witches?

Unread post by SolCannibal »

Honestly, no issue at all for me. Are we worried about what, breaking any sort of balance, in Rifts/Phaseworld? Anyway, the inability to do magic is in itself a mechanical gimmick done in support of the narrative of the Seljuk's collective sacrifice of their magic potential for the sake of reordering the Ley Line patterns of their homeworld in a way that made it safer for them, that simple, no more no less.

An individual Seljuk going against that makes for another narrative on its own and i see no problem at all in making use of that in a game. In fact as a GM i would make a point of DRIVING HOME how in doing so the character is going LITERALLY against ancient, powerful sacrifices & vows willingly made by its ancestors, shaman or not and how its attempt to unravel them might have consequences not only for it, but the Seljuk people and its homeworld as a whole, possibly connecting the Supernatural Intelligence behind the Witch pact with the "wild times", along with possibly the plague now spreading across the Seljuk species in the Three Galaxies.
Post Reply

Return to “Rifts®: Dimension Books”