Protoculture cells and missile questions

[MOrab46019]

The Protoculture cell when did it come on line. All of them go with the UEEF or some were still on Earth with a few Alphas?

Missiles are all the missiles the same? a SRM from Macross mecha will it fit in Shadow Chronicle mecha? Will Zentraedi missiles also work in UEDF/UEEF mecha?

Thank you.

[tobefrnk]

Hopefully the Masters source book will shed more light on the matter of protoculture canister prevalence. Many point to evidence that they must have been on Earth do to a reported scene of Scott's band in Denver that has Rook pushing a shopping cart with some cells in it. That city was suppose to have gotten frozen over before the Invid arrived.

As for the missiles, it depends on how much realism you want to put into the game. We see physical differences from all the missiles used throughout the series but for simplicity sake, some GMs just say a short range is a short range and be done with it. The old version of the game actually stated some differences in the mini-missiles but that seems to have been removed in the updated books.

[Tiree]

I fall under the simplistic GM philosphy on the missiles. But I do require someone to make a mechanics roll and electronics roll to see if they can be properly converted to fit in the launcher. This just makes them not totally plug and play

[MOrab46019]

The missiles I do hope that the up comming books will cover this also.

The cells is also something else that has to be cover.

Thank you. For your time and answers.

[Tiree]

I do fall into the category that during the 2nd Robotech War there was Protoculture canisters around, and the technology was perfected. The ASC may not have utilized them nearly as much as the UEEF, but they were there.

But I also claim that the Protoculture canisters were a design either created by the Invid or the Robotech Masters, and they used them interchangeably. These designs were on board the Robotech Factory/Space Station Liberty and then were incorporated into the designs of the UEEF.

Also in my games, even though the VF-1's use SLMH as their fuel source, they do require Protoculture to catalyze the fuel to make it 'super fuel' and allow transformation and/or robotech goodness.

Just my way of reconciling what I have seen in the show with what is out there by PB Books and the retconning.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I do fall into the category that during the 2nd Robotech War there was Protoculture canisters around, and the technology was perfected. The ASC may not have utilized them nearly as much as the UEEF, but they were there.

Just to go a little further with this train of thought, the only mecha left that would not utilize Protoculture might be either in the possession of the AUL (second string High Tech Bandits) or Non-Aligned/Independent polities, mercenaries and militias. The UEF might have some, but they would be things like Trainers (old VT-1Ds) and other Reserve Force components. All Class I Divisions (pre-War Active) that had mecha would be Protoculture Powered. Governments are notorious penny pinchers and it wouldn't make sense not to utilize Protoculture when it would be (relatively) plentiful. Plus, it would mean any mecha put into forward or rear depots (POMCUS) would use the same fuel. After all, what good would it do the logistics trains of either UEDF or UEEF formations to have 2 wildly different fuels, when more and more there is a move to standardization of EVERYTHING in the modern military (something that began in the 1960s under Robert McNamara in the United States).

But I also claim that the Protoculture canisters were a design either created by the Invid or the Robotech Masters, and they used them interchangeably. These designs were on board the Robotech Factory/Space Station Liberty and then were incorporated into the designs of the UEEF.

The Masters probably developed them, more than likely Zor himself (or one of his fellow early Masters) and everyone copied the designs (even the Invid) so as to make it simpler to utilize. The UEF copied them from the Zentraedi (a single canister would probably be the size of a D-cell Battery to the typical 10m tall Zentraedi).

Also in my games, even though the VF-1's use SLMH as their fuel source, they do require Protoculture to catalyze the fuel to make it 'super fuel' and allow transformation and/or robotech goodness.

For myself, during the earliest phase of Reconstruction (period of 2012 - 2014), the reformed UEF began to convert all their mecha to Protoculture. SLMH as a fuel makes sense as a 1st Robotech War explanation, but falls flat on its face for Reconstruction (reference Broken Heart) and the 2nd Robotech War (reference Triumvirate, Mind Games and Frostbite). Most certainly all the mecha built on Space Station Liberty would have used Protoculture (reference Khyron's Revenge).

Just my way of reconciling what I have seen in the show with what is out there by PB Books and the retconning.

This is Tommy Yune's fault, not PB. They're just doing as they have to by their license. It shows when you scratch the surface by looking at the development/deployment dates given in the mecha entries. The SFA-5 Bat uses Protoculture, and it was built/deployed BEFORE the Expeditionary Force got fully underway in 2023. Same with the Condor Veritechs before being turned into the Battloids late in the 2030s. The Alpha is clearly developed and deployed prior to the REF leaving and nothing in the file indicates them either using SLMH or the early Protoculture Reactor. Just more plot holes given by someone who cannot keep track of what he is saying.

[Tiree]

Just to go a little further with this train of thought, the only mecha left that would not utilize Protoculture might be either in the possession of the AUL (second string High Tech Bandits) or Non-Aligned/Independent polities, mercenaries and militias. The UEF might have some, but they would be things like Trainers (old VT-1Ds) and other Reserve Force components. All Class I Divisions (pre-War Active) that had mecha would be Protoculture Powered. Governments are notorious penny pinchers and it wouldn't make sense not to utilize Protoculture when it would be (relatively) plentiful. Plus, it would mean any mecha put into forward or rear depots (POMCUS) would use the same fuel. After all, what good would it do the logistics trains of either UEDF or UEEF formations to have 2 wildly different fuels, when more and more there is a move to standardization of EVERYTHING in the modern military (something that began in the 1960s under Robert McNamara in the United States).

This is exactly what I have done. I have also expanded upon the Hybrid devices and I am using high storage capacitors for my Alternate Mecha Designs. These suits are basically glorified Power Armor that have a limited power supply, and are all ammo dependent platform. Of course amazingly enough 1 with 4 mini missiles took out a Beta! (okay it was damaged a little before the fight...)

The Masters probably developed them, more than likely Zor himself (or one of his fellow early Masters) and everyone copied the designs (even the Invid) so as to make it simpler to utilize. The UEF copied them from the Zentraedi (a single canister would probably be the size of a D-cell Battery to the typical 10m tall Zentraedi).

I didn't want to go that far. Since there has been a lot of Ret-Conning, I didn't want to say that Zor was the uber scientist, that discovers everything. But by having the designs on the Robotech Factory / Space Station Liberty, it ends up being technology everyone knows how to use.

For myself, during the earliest phase of Reconstruction (period of 2012 - 2014), the reformed UEF began to convert all their mecha to Protoculture. SLMH as a fuel makes sense as a 1st Robotech War explanation, but falls flat on its face for Reconstruction (reference Broken Heart) and the 2nd Robotech War (reference Triumvirate, Mind Games and Frostbite). Most certainly all the mecha built on Space Station Liberty would have used Protoculture (reference Khyron's Revenge).

This makes sense, and I do like it. I just didn't want to go too far in that direction. But I would state that if they were going to make the VF-1R, the retrofit version, I can definitely see it having an upgraded power supply. I just can't really see them doing so for the Destroids that they have been phasing out. But who knows...

This is Tommy Yune's fault, not PB. They're just doing as they have to by their license. It shows when you scratch the surface by looking at the development/deployment dates given in the mecha entries. The SFA-5 Bat uses Protoculture, and it was built/deployed BEFORE the Expeditionary Force got fully underway in 2023. Same with the Condor Veritechs before being turned into the Battloids late in the 2030s. The Alpha is clearly developed and deployed prior to the REF leaving and nothing in the file indicates them either using SLMH or the early Protoculture Reactor. Just more plot holes given by someone who cannot keep track of what he is saying.

I don't care who is at fault. I am just trying to make sense of it all. If my stopgap measures makes sense, and ends up being used - Great! But like you, I think there are some issues that need to be cleaned up. Sadly, I do not believe we will get official words on how things are cleaned up, without having more holes created.

[green.nova343]

Missiles are all the missiles the same? a SRM from Macross mecha will it fit in Shadow Chronicle mecha? Will Zentraedi missiles also work in UEDF/UEEF mecha?

Thank you.

Nope, not all the same. At the very least, you see 2 separate types of SRMs used on the Tomahawk -- 24 "ground-attack" or multipurpose SRMs in the chest launchers, & 6 surface-to-air optimized SRMs (or potentially MRMs) in the shoulder "six-pack" -- both of which also list body diameters not only different from each other (12cm regular, 17.8cm SAM), but different than those used on the Alpha & Beta (19cm).

For external carriage (i.e. a single-missile hardpoint or MER/Multiple Ejector Rack), the missiles are fairly close in size & mass (46-47lbs listed for UEDF, 33-35lbs listed for UEEF) that you can probably substitute without any problems. But modifying an internally-mounted launcher (or a box-type enclosed launcher system) will take some major reconstruction work (i.e. Weapons Engineer, Vehicle Armorer, and/or Field Armorer & Munitions Expert skill rolls), plus you'll see changes in the payloads.

Same will probably happen with Zentraed missiles. With them, of course, you not only have the problem of trying to fit the alien missile's dimensions into a Terran-designed launcher, but also the problem of integrating the hardware linkages & the software controls. You'd probably have an easier time modifying an AA-7 Apex to be launched from an F-4 Phantom II's Sparrow launch rail then fitting a Tomahawk to fire Queadlunn-Rau SRMs.

[Jefffar]

There are reasons I wish that Robotech RPG would use specific missile stats instead of generic ones. Discussions like this highlight one of those reasons.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

There are reasons I wish that Robotech RPG would use specific missile stats instead of generic ones. Discussions like this highlight one of those reasons.

Yea, I do as well. May sound lame, but it helps with the immersion in my opinion.

[Jefffar]

Yet another reason.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Yet another reason.

Noticed something else....why would the military have converted over to the 2-shot RL-2 Recoilless Rifle when the mini-missiles used are apparently the same as those of the 5-shot RL-1 Recoilless Rifle? There is also the fact that anybody can look at them and see the bore sizes on the two are radically different (the RL-2 is ALOT bigger). The RL-2 round should do significantly more damage, but because of the generic missile charts it loses alot in the 'translation' to the game.

Re: I don't care - Frankly, if someone feels that they don't care if Palladium uses the standard missile chart or goes with specific missiles from the anime...all well and good. You're entitled to your opinion. However, the game is also SUPPOSED to be made for the hardcore fans. The casual fans have the generic missile chart....so why not give those of us who want more immersion specific munitions to play around with? Its not like there aren't enough online resources to call upon for which mecha get which missiles etc. As it is, someone, somewhere, is going to give their GM a massive migraine by wanting to use enemy missiles (Zentraedi or Invid) for their mecha because, as per the generic missile chart, there is no difference between the two...especially with regards to mini-missiles.

To the mods: Please do not take this as me cracking on Jason Marker, Kevin or Palladium. I'm simply expressing my concern as a 'hardcore' fan who wants the immersive aspect of a Robotech gaming experience. We are, after all, fans too.

[Jefffar]

The Generic missile chart is faster and easier and saves space (important in the smaller Manga format books).

Still, when the effort was made to come up with Electronic Warfare rules and make systems sound like modern military equipment, a little attention paid to the missiles would have been worth it to produce a much better book.

Fortunately, there are more concrete missile descriptions out there on the web that can be used for things like range, speed, number carried, etc. For simplicity, just keep the damage the same as the missiles of the class in the RPG.

[Sakieh]

Seriously, why wouldn't Rick have gotten some brig time for "stealing" the armored veritech during the episode Miss Macross?

I always think that part of the reason is because: It turned out he was justified in using it for that Patrol, as what he encountered proved to have actually needed the extra firepower and armour, and it ended up giving the Armoured Veritech a surprise field test. If he had taken a regular Veritech, he might not have come back at all. And, for all we know, he might HAVE done some Brig time(a day or two). I mean, it took the SDF-1 what, 2 years? to get back to Earth?

[Chris]

Seriously, why wouldn't Rick have gotten some brig time for "stealing" the armored veritech during the episode Miss Macross?

I always think that part of the reason is because: It turned out he was justified in using it for that Patrol, as what he encountered proved to have actually needed the extra firepower and armour, and it ended up giving the Armoured Veritech a surprise field test. If he had taken a regular Veritech, he might not have come back at all. And, for all we know, he might HAVE done some Brig time(a day or two). I mean, it took the SDF-1 what, 2 years? to get back to Earth?

A lot of stuff got shuffled under the rug in terms of realism, but it moved the story forward and made for a great tale. I mean, lets take it further with the Miss Macross episode. I was struck by the fact that after Rick had downed the enemy Scout ship and was adrift, his mecha in tatters, that the bridge crew did not deem it necessary to check in on him, or even send another flight out to see what had happened; yet, found the time to turn back to the all important Miss Macross pageant. In the real military every single person on that bridge at the time would have been found guilty of dereliction of duty and culpable negligence in the commission of their duties. (Rick too would have been up on charges when the flight recorder was 'debriefed' and it was found he was watching TV instead of flying his mission.)

[ShadowLogan]

Sakieh:

And, for all we know, he might HAVE done some Brig time(a day or two). I mean, it took the SDF-1 what, 2 years? to get back to Earth?

Reported time is 12-1/2 months between initial contact and Lisa's report in Alaska Base shortly after returning to Earth.

Jeffar:

Still, when the effort was made to come up with Electronic Warfare rules and make systems sound like modern military equipment, a little attention paid to the missiles would have been worth it to produce a much better book.

I agree to a point, but I think stating out each individual missile is a bit much, perhaps a list of different missile types cross referenced with the generic table then. The various launch platforms would need to be updated by some means.

Example (for illustrative purposes only, not intend to be accurate classification):
AIM-9X Sidewider = HE SRM
AIM-54 Pheonix = HE MRM
AA-7 Archer = HE MRM
Moongoose = Plamsa MRM

Alternatively you could just state that when you find/recover missile "X", this particular model can only be used by Mecha X (Y, Z, etc) and still use the generic tables. Weather the PCs can use Missile X because of this...

[Jefffar]

I envisioned a chart that covers the different missile types and a small section of flavour text for the diverse models and any specific rules in each. Then the missile launchers on each mecha's description would say: 'Launcher carries X of X model missile, reference chart page ABC for details'

[Chris]

And that's the heart of my argument. I keep seeing what I feel is a push toward a more "realistic" military setting for Robotech. While I agree that we see a more structured military during the Master's saga (even showing Dana and Sean with some time in the brig), the Macross saga in general shows a more lax military style aboard the SDF-01, and in the New Generation of Invid Occupied Earth their isn't much of a central command set up to organize the resistance.

Exactly, and that's fine if your particular game is going to be more realistic, that's up the GM and the players. Me, I like a blending of the two. As you said, the Masters series was more structured and that's where I like it, structured enough so that your character shouldn't be able to go willy-nilly, but still lax enough so that you could still date your commanding officer and not end up cashiered. There is also the hero aspect of it, if you are so wound up about what you should or shouldn't do because you fear your character will get jail time, then the game restricts you to much. A 'hero' character, the player, should be able to get away with bending or breaking the rules here and there because they ARE the hero's (within reason, mind you, absconding with a super VF to fight the bad guys or take your hot singer girlfriend for a jaunt around the rings of Saturn is fine, using it to step on civilians is not.)

[green.nova343]

And that's the heart of my argument. I keep seeing what I feel is a push toward a more "realistic" military setting for Robotech. While I agree that we see a more structured military during the Master's saga (even showing Dana and Sean with some time in the brig), the Macross saga in general shows a more lax military style aboard the SDF-01, and in the New Generation of Invid Occupied Earth their isn't much of a central command set up to organize the resistance.

Exactly, and that's fine if your particular game is going to be more realistic, that's up the GM and the players. Me, I like a blending of the two. As you said, the Masters series was more structured and that's where I like it, structured enough so that your character shouldn't be able to go willy-nilly, but still lax enough so that you could still date your commanding officer and not end up cashiered. There is also the hero aspect of it, if you are so wound up about what you should or shouldn't do because you fear your character will get jail time, then the game restricts you to much. A 'hero' character, the player, should be able to get away with bending or breaking the rules here and there because they ARE the hero's (within reason, mind you, absconding with a super VF to fight the bad guys or take your hot singer girlfriend for a jaunt around the rings of Saturn is fine, using it to step on civilians is not.)

Not to mention that, in general, the settings show the primary military personnel (i.e. crew of the SDF-1 during the Macross Saga) operating for extended lengths of time without access to the "normal" military hierarchy, with all the rules, regulations & other issues that have to be dealt with in "realistic" settings. Cashier the bridge crew of the SDF-1? Sure, if you're within reach of fully trained and experienced personnel... something they were sorely lacking after having jumped to Pluto's orbit. They didn't even have long-range radio communications with the UEDF High Command on Earth, let alone find themselves within reach of the surviving ships from the Zentraedi's initial attack on Macross Island.

And after the Rain of Death, the lack of people in general, let alone trainedj professionals to find & neutralize rogue Zentraedi would have forced the newly reformed UEDF High Command to either lose a lot of their war-weary but highly trained veteran pilots from violations of "relatively minor" regulations, or practice selective enforcement of said regulations "for the duration of the emergency" -- and given that Gloval was one of the few surviving high-ranking officers (as evidenced by his rapid promotion from Captain to Admiral), I daresay he would have continued his "hands-off" approach as a matter of course.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Well, came across something earlier that illustrates the absurdity of non-protoculture nuclear fusion for all but the REF mecha.

From the Stars Graphic Novel
Chapter 4: Conflict of Interest
Dr. Lang: Increase thrust by 10%, Lieutenant Fokker.
Roy Fokker: Gotcha, Dr. Lang. Increasing thrust now.
Dr. Lang: Shut off de intakes! Schliesse die luftzufuhr. Kompressor stirst ab....
Roy Fokker: What's going on!? The engine's stalling.....
Dr. Lang: Starte den reflexmikroreaktor.....Ok, Lieutenant dat should suffice for today.
Unnamed Tech 01: Fusion ist erfolgreich!
Unnamed Tech 02: Die mikroreflexreaktion tatsachlich funktionert! Wir konnen das problem des absterbens in der battloidfunktion umgehen!
Dr. Lang: Notify Lieutenant Colonel Edwards dat vee have found a solution that vill allow us to recommence testing of Battloid Mode.

This is from the Wildstorm Comics and they are supposed to be canon according to Robotech.com. Unless someone is going to sit there and tell me that Reflex referred to in this instance doesn't really mean the same thing as Reflex in Robotech, this is yet another example of plot holes where none need to exist. I realise that Palladium is beholden to what Tommy says, but dangit, is there no recourse to correct him when he blatantly is wrong? I feel like I'm watching a train wreck in slow motion at times. At this point, its irrelevant as to whether they use a 10-year supply reactor or a 10-day supply cell (I favour the latter as it creates the least problems). The SLMH solution isn't listed ANYWHERE in ANY canon document, let alone the Tv series. There is canon evidence from both the Tv show (reference Broken Heart, Triumvirate and Mind Games) and the Wildstorm comics that the mecha of the UEF run on Protoculture.

[ShadowLogan]

Yet it also says "Fusion ist erfolgreich!" or "Fusion is successful!" so couldn't one use this to show they do in fact use fusion engines?

I think what RSCF/BRL is getting at is that Protoculture is used to fuel Reflex Engines (based on previous dialogue), which in this instance appears to allow those Fusion Engines to work.

Either:
-the Reflex Reactor (with its protoculture) is being used to start the Fusion Engines. In this case the Battery of your car is the Reflex Reactor that is used to start the internal combustion engine of your car.
- (OR) Reflex = Fusion, and since we know Reflex needs Protoculture to work... (Using the car example above, you are only using one source of energy: like batteries in an electric car).

In either case Protoculture would appear to be a necessary component.

[Tiree]

To broadly encompass every point of view, I have Protoculture available to the old veritechs and destroids, but it is used as a catalyst of the SLMH and super energizes the power output.

But then again - SLMH is purely a RPG event, and for the purists - it may be dropped like any other rules in a RPG.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Seems odd, doesn't it, that if Reflex means Protoculture that they would be using it in weapons and leaving it lying around, like at Mars base.

Seasons Greetings
Khyron: How are the reflex furnaces? Are they working yet?
Zentraedi Tech: Not yet Lord Khyron and it does not look as if they will until we get some protoculture soon.
Khyron: What is the status of the main reactors?
Tech: If we had a few days they could be functional, but takeoff would still be impossible. We are without power from the main reactor because we lack protoculture.
............
Industrial Sector Comptroller: Protoculture Maintenance Group Twenty-Eight report to Warehouse Three Level Two.
......camera pans across truck hauling protoculture storage matrix..............
............
Human Warehouse Contractor: Lets see. We have three power condensers for reflex engines.blah, blah, lost in the background, blah

Enter Marlene
Lancer: We're surrounded by a junkyard of Robotech mecha, the perfect place to look for reflex weapons or even protoculture.

The Fortress
Scott: This must be the central central powercore for the whole fortress......That looks interesting. Ah, I thought so, the main control matrix.
The Regess: Control matrix breached. Reflex furnace overload.

There is one more quote, IIRC, from Khyron's Revenge where Khyron states that he is getting sensor readings of 'high reflex activity' when he goes after the protoculture sizing chamber. However, I can't find my DVD with that episode at the moment, so someone else will have to check. Anyway, seems rather cut and dried that Reflex Furnaces require Protoculture.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Note, he asks about the “Reflex furnaces” first and then the “main reactors” The main reactors require Protoculture. Unless you want to say that “Reflex furnances”=“main reactors” and think that Khyron asked about the same thing twice in a row.

I don't know why I bother as nothing is evidence of anything apparently. Have fun spinning in circles.

[Beatmeclever]

I'm beginning to think that neither of you know what evidence looks like. Because until we can determine what protoculture is and how it can power any kind of vehicle, we can NEVER know how a Reflex Furnace or the reactors that power that furnace can be powered by it.

So, just as in an earlier post that was probably locked due to the horrible method of debates that some people get into on this forum, the real question is still, "What is Protoculture and how does it work?"

[Beatmeclever]

I disagree. One can know something powers X without knowing how it actually works (in regards to powering it).

Not when talking about a possible chain of power that is never explained beyond one guy asking questions about random systems on a spaceship and getting an answer of, "not without more protoculture," to both systems (one a reactor and the other a furnace) neither of which operate in a similar manner.

Who knows if the reactors have anything to do with the furnace or if they are two separate systems. Maybe the reactors power the weapons and the furnace powers the drives, or vice versa.

[Beatmeclever]

Out curiosity, if you believe what you are claiming, then the reverse of you being unable to say either of us are wrong would be true as well, yes?

Yes, I am not not saying that either of you can't be right. I'm saying that we need more information from the source material.

I can know I need batteries for my flashlight to work and have no idea how batteries actually operate and be confident that I need batteries for my flashlight to work.

So, what you are sure is that you need batteries for your flashlight to work. But your flashlight is unconnected to your radio, which also uses batteries to operate. Just like Khyron knows he needs Protoculture for both his Reactors and his Reflex Furnace to work. But, does he need the reactor to make the furnace work or the furnace to make the reactor work or are the two even connected? We are not told. Just the same, both the flashlight and the radio use batteries in the same way (electricity through a circuit). So, how does PC power both a reactor and a furnace? Or does it power both?

Both you and Rabid seem to think you have it right and, depending on how you assume they are connected, you are both right and both wrong. It all depends on the soundness of the starting premisses. Until we either know what PC is and how it makes things work or how (or if) the two systems are connected it is impossible for either of your conclusions to follow with any degree of truth.

We know that Reactors require Protoculture.
We know that Reflex Furnaces require Protoculture.
We do not know if the two systems are connected.
We do not know how the two use Protoculture.

There are at least four possibilities here at this time: 1) that PC reacts with something inside the reactor and that reaction heats the furnace, 2) that PC is used in the furnace to create the stuff used in the reaction chamber, 3) the two systems are both separate and PC is used in two disparate manners in both for two different effects altogether, or 4) none of these are correct and PC doesn't do any of these because it is simply not that kind of matter.

If anyone can give the connections I will happily accept the chain of logic.

[Tiree]

We also know that PC by itself can power mecha (as per the cannisters found in the New Generation).

[Beatmeclever]

We also know that PC by itself can power mecha (as per the cannisters found in the New Generation).

But how does that work? Is it like using a AAA battery? And why does it take reactors and/or furnaces earlier in time? Batteries are not little steam engines nor do That adds even more complications to the Reactor, Reflex Furnace, and now Battery enigma.

Maybe the PC Cell is just a small reactor or furnace? Maybe what the Invid see is really the intense heat of the micronized Reflex Furnace burning in the heart of the mecha (but then EVERYONE could "detect" active Protoculture)?

But we are still left with the question, "how does Protoculture power anything?"

[Lt. Holmes]

We also know that PC by itself can power mecha (as per the cannisters found in the New Generation).

But how does that work? Is it like using a AAA battery? And why does it take reactors and/or furnaces earlier in time? Batteries are not little steam engines nor do That adds even more complications to the Reactor, Reflex Furnace, and now Battery enigma.

Maybe the PC Cell is just a small reactor or furnace? Maybe what the Invid see is really the intense heat of the micronized Reflex Furnace burning in the heart of the mecha (but then EVERYONE could "detect" active Protoculture)?

But we are still left with the question, "how does Protoculture power anything?"

My take on it is that the smaller sizes are examples of technological progression. The initial mecha (the VF-1s and the RDF Destroids) are big and huge, not just because they needed to be that way, but because that was the smallest they could fit those Protoculture Reactors into. As time and humans' understanding of Protoculture advanced they discovered that they didn't need huge reactors and instead could use smaller Protoculture "batteries" that stored the energy from another source, instead of making it directly. The trade-off being that the batteries wouldn't last nearly as long (as short as a month for the REF mecha as opposed to years for RDF mecha).

In my little world, when a PC cell is dry they take out of the mecha and near the Protoculture/Reflex engines of a major ship and plug it in and recharge it, not unlike recharable batteries today. Think about it, we use batteries as compact energy sources instead of each individual component having a generator unto itself. Imagine how big a TV remote would be if it had a generator instead of batteries

Also, my version is that "Reflex" is what humans called Protoculture before they learned of the proper name from the Zentradi.

[glitterboy2098]

i'm not sure we can take the zentreadi lines about protoculture at face value. after all, this is the same race that utters the word "protoculture" when humans kiss. unless we want to assume Lisa hayes and Minmei has top secret flower-power enhanced lips, we have to assume that the zentreadi were not exactly experts on protoculture.

frankly, i'd suspect the master's taught the zentreadi the term "protoculture" as a catch all for many things, which the zentreadi generalized further.


i'm willing to accept that protoculture is a required for the starships. and we know that earth mecha use protoculture by the new gen period.

but earth using more conventional fusion for it's mecha prior to the masters arriving, and only branching off into compact protoculture power later would be reasonable. given that the SDF-1 had the only supply of PC when most of them were being designed, i doubt humanity would want to use its limited supply of "Alien Fuel #" when making something that was intended to be mass produced.

by the time of southern cross, i could see humanity branching off into PC mecha, since there is now a larger supply to experiment with, and better understanding of the alien derived technology to work with. by new gen, humanity has had a chance to reverse engineer master's tech, which might be the key to making the Cell approach.

[Tiree]

but earth using more conventional fusion for it's mecha prior to the masters arriving, and only branching off into compact protoculture power later would be reasonable. given that the SDF-1 had the only supply of PC when most of them were being designed, i doubt humanity would want to use its limited supply of "Alien Fuel #" when making something that was intended to be mass produced.

by the time of southern cross, i could see humanity branching off into PC mecha, since there is now a larger supply to experiment with, and better understanding of the alien derived technology to work with. by new gen, humanity has had a chance to reverse engineer master's tech, which might be the key to making the Cell approach.

How does this work with the timeline presented in the RPG: 2020 - Alpha's were in testing stage. 2031 Alpha's went into Mass production. Yes there were 11 years, Alpha's in testing and were produced in small numbers. Are we to assume that Alpha's in the early years were not PC Cell driven? Did they have reactors like the Condor and Conbat (which I have nixed in my games btw)

In 2022 - the SDF-3 left for Tirol, and by 2030 The Second Robotech War Ends. We also know by 2031 the humans before the Invid Arrive on earth have access to Protoculture Cells (as evident in Frostbite/Denver scene - not saying great access, but access: ie they were there)

There are a lot of holes, a concise timeline would be great to have. One that covers when certain things were in production. But to be honest, it is not important to anyone except for people digging into the minutia (like me).

With the next two books to come out, I hope that Kevin and Crew will go back through TSC, update it and correct any inconsistencies. Shouldn't the Alpha have Auto-Dodge, especially since the VF-1 has it. Will the Masters equipment have it? But that is my hope, and I realize it is probably not realistic.

Just to illustrate my point:

2013 - Conbat goes into Service (uses Protoculture Reactor)
2020 - Alpha's are being produced in small numbers (uses Protoculture Cells?)
2022 - Condor variable fighter is designed and tested (and later failed) (unkown power source)
2022 - SDF-3 Launches for Tirol
2025 - Condor MBR is built in mass production (uses Protoculture Reactor)
2029 - Begins 2nd Robotech War
2030 - End 2nd Robotech War
2031 - Invid Occupy Earth
2031 - Protoculture Cells are known to be on earth (based on evidence found in Denver 'Frostbite')
2031 - Alpha's enter Mass Production (uses Protoculture Cells)

[glitterboy2098]

i haven't had a chance to examine the new books, so i'm not aware of specific timeline info ATM. my suggestion was more of a "lets look at it this way"


using your timeline:
i'd guess: my thoughts bolded.
up to 2012 - protoculture limited to starship use only, SLMH use for mecha, PC reactors researched)
2013 - Conbat goes into Service (uses early model Protoculture Reactor, refit with newer models over course of service life)
2020 - Alpha's are being produced in small numbers (uses PC reactor)
2022 - Condor variable fighter is designed and tested (and later failed) (probably PC reactor)
2022 - SDF-3 Launches for Tirol (PC cell systems begin development)
2025 - Condor MBR is built in mass production (uses Protoculture Reactor) (PC cell systems developed sufficently for mass production)
2029 - Begins 2nd Robotech War (PC cells become available for limited civilian use)
2030 - End 2nd Robotech War (PC cells made standard for all new model UEEF mecha)
2031 - Invid Occupy Earth (PC cells become backbone of energy economy due ot destruction of most other infrastructure)
2031 - Protoculture Cells are known to be on earth (based on evidence found in Denver 'Frostbite')
2031 - Alpha's enter Mass Production (uses Protoculture Cells)


if there is a mecha that doesn't fit this approach (when were the cyclones developed, for example?) let me know.

under this approach, i'd put the Southern Cross mecha as in a transition state. early model ASC mecha (conventionally armed hovertanks, Logans, and most of the battloids) as SLMH powered, with later model mecha (energy weapon armed hovertanks, AGAC's) using early Cell systems.

the UEEF moves to protoculture reactors because they have a ready supply (given it will already be stockpiled for use on starships), but will be operating away from earth based supply lines, thus limited the supply of SLMH. ASC mecha, being tied to earth supply wise, has the SLMH infrastructure to draw on and thus goes with the easily available SLMH for it's early mecha (most which probably were developed in the late 2010's., early 2020's. when Cells become available, they start switching over to the more efficent power source.

civilian use of cells would start as a "UEG countries only" thing, and when the invid hit and wipe out much of the worlds infrastructure, the military stockpiles of raw PC and cells (which the invid left alone) are the only redily available power source left, and thus become a common sight. though biofuel ICE would probably still exist.

[Tiree]

if there is a mecha that doesn't fit this approach (when were the cyclones developed, for example?) let me know.

Unfortunately the Cyclone is not listed with definitive dates. CVR-3 was "penned" in 2021, and the VR-38 Series was finalized in late 2020's.

So 2025 for PCells coming into full production would sound good... I would probably have PCells being designed earlier than 2021, so that they were counting on this new power source for the YVR Project (Cyclone Technology) they were working on in 2021.

[glitterboy2098]

heck, the cell approach might have been invented for the cyclones and similar PA sized mecha, and then just generalized for all mecha after it was realized how much simpler and efficent it would be over PC reactors...

[Lt. Holmes]

I dislike not having PC-powered RDF mecha. It doesn't allow for much continuity between First Gen, Second Gen, and Third Gen. But I'm also a diehard man-machine link fanboy, so I need to have PC in all my mecha

[glitterboy2098]

the same reason people are willing to fight over oil when we also have coal and methane that can be used for much the same uses.

because it's the best of the choices. compare protoculture to SLMH. SLMH is producable by humans, protoculture is not. but if you look at the performance, a mecha needs a few thousand gallons of SLMH for a day of operation, while the same supply of PC could run a mecha for months.

16 cans of PC will run an alpha for days, while the VF-1 using SLMH can run for only a few hours despite having big tanks of fuel.

basically i'm suggestion a progresssion.

mankind starts with the stuff we can make ourselves, since the supply of the alien fuel (protoculture) is limited t what came in a single ship. remember that the UEDF was supposed to defend the whole planet. thousands of mecha. and it had to keep enough fuel on hand for the SDF-1. easier ot do that if those mecha rely on human made fuels, and the alien stuff is reserved for the alien tech.
once the zentreadi are defeated, there is a lot more of the alien fuel to work with, and gradually it becomes the staple power supply. the human developed SLMH is pushed to fring use in places where more power is needed than petrochemical fuels can give but protoculture is not needed.
when the invid hit, the infrastructure of earth is so damaged the only stuff left is protoculture, so the survivors use what is available.


compare this to history. civilizations started with basic muscle/water/wind power, and moved to coal power when expanding. oil was of limited supply, and limited utility, so it wasn't used much except in a few specific instances. once oil drilling was developed and made profitable, oil replaced coal because it gave better results, was safer, and took up less space. nowadays coal is relegated to a few uses where wind/water power is not feasible, but oil is not cost effective.

people used to power cars with coal fired steam plants, remember, but now oil derived ICE is dominant. but it took a bit for those oil based ICE's to take over.

[glitterboy2098]

i don't know. i think it adds a layer of diversity to the setting, which makes for a more interesting and varied games.

it really isn't a big deal in the show, since the nitty-gritty like refueling and such is barely hinted at, and stuff like maintenece only shows up tangentally. but in an RPG, where both can effect or even lead to adventures, it's worth taking a closer look. and having a reason why older mecha would be harder to use in later settings is a good one.

i mean, if the VF-1 used PC, it could operate almost as effectively as an Alpha during the invid period. and since the Vf-1 can pack more firepower and is marginally more agile (ignoring the autododge here), why would you use an Alpha if you had a VF-1 available? lack of SLMH is a good reason...


plus it opens up some options for Gm's in the Haydonite period. some commander gets the idea to drag out some VF-1's from a museum BSG style to fight the haydonites, but has to deal with the lack of spare parts and lack of fuel.

[Beatmeclever]

i don't know. i think it adds a layer of diversity to the setting, which makes for a more interesting and varied games.

it really isn't a big deal in the show, since the nitty-gritty like refueling and such is barely hinted at, and stuff like maintenece only shows up tangentally. but in an RPG, where both can effect or even lead to adventures, it's worth taking a closer look. and having a reason why older mecha would be harder to use in later settings is a good one.

i mean, if the VF-1 used PC, it could operate almost as effectively as an Alpha during the invid period. and since the Vf-1 can pack more firepower and is marginally more agile (ignoring the autododge here), why would you use an Alpha if you had a VF-1 available? lack of SLMH is a good reason...

plus it opens up some options for Gm's in the Haydonite period. some commander gets the idea to drag out some VF-1's from a museum BSG style to fight the haydonites, but has to deal with the lack of spare parts and lack of fuel.

I can agree with this on the RPG front, but at the same time I feel like the research could have been done a little better.

Another option would be to begin refining SLMH again and refit the Alpha/Beta/Cyclones and any other mecha to operate on the stuff. I mean sure turn around times will suck, but at least the power source is invisible to the Invid and not created by the Haydonites. Then again, that might mean the old Vindicator would have to be built to bring the technology of the UEEF into line with the use of SLMH.

Or the Cyclones wouldn't be the crazy warmachines that they had been up to now since they would have to refuel more often. Then again, it would mean troop movements would mirror the armies of today more, I guess.

[Lt. Holmes]

The problem is that there's a world of difference between "power source" and "fuel", especially in space. Power source lets the mecha operate, but you don't go forward unless you throw something out the back end (simple physics, Newton's Third Law). That's not as much of an issue in an atmosphere since you can use the air , compress it, and throw it out back to go forward; but in space you need to bring your reaction mass with you.

I'm a proponent of mecha requiring both a power source and a fuel source. That would also explain why the pint-sized Alpha has such short space legs (not nearly as much physical volume as a Valkyrie or a Beta).

[glitterboy2098]

i think you mean between "fuel" and "reaction mass". fuel is what your craft uses in its power plant. reaction mass (remass) is the stuff you spew out to make yourself go.

in the case of modern chemical rocketry, the two are the same. ditto for fusion drives like the valkyrie has. in the case of atomic rocketry, the fuel is the fissile material in the reactor, and the remass is the liquid or gas the reactor heats up. in the case of ion and plasma rocketry, the fuel is whatever you use to provide power to the rocket (usually a nuclear reactor, so fissile material, or in the case of a fusion reactor, hydrogen), and the remass is the liquid of gas explessed by the ion or plasma drive. current ion drives use xenon gas for remass, the VASIMIR thats going up to the space station soon will be using hydrogen cracked out of the waste water produced by the stations crew.


the debate over wether PC should be the only stuff in use or if other stuff were alos used is truely a debate over fuel. it is a debate over the material used by the powerplants of the vehicles in question. wether the vehicle needs remass as well is a technical issue not really at stake here.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Hehe, these caught me by surprise. I went looking for the double-blaster head on the Phalanx and found something else instead:

Force of Arms
Monster Crewmen: Reflex furnace up to power. Balance gyro's activated. All systems are ready Captain.
...................
Grand Cannon Crewman: Energy converter is now fully active. Reflex power modules at 100%. All systems standing by with 20 seconds to firing and counting.

And, of course, here's Khyron....

Khyron's Revenge
Khyron: I'm getting high reflex activity readings. I will have that protoculture chamber.

Well now, we have proof that the Monster had a reflex furnace from the Tv show both during and in the aftermath of the 1st Robotech War. We now know the Grand Cannon used reflex power modules in some form. And, Khyron lays it out that reflex = protoculture. Then there is the fact that the Wildstorm Comics have the VF-1 with a micro-reflex reactor. Someone still want to try and defend Tommy's assertions that the UEF mecha do not run on Protoculture until the 3rd Robotech War? I realise that Palladium still has to do what Tommy says, but darnit, Tommy ISN'T following the SHOW!

[Tiree]

Maybe we can twist it back to - Tommy had misidentified SLMH as a fuel, but it is actually reaction mass. Something had to be leaking out of Ben's VF-1.

I do like the concept of SLMH, and it is great as a precursor to pure protoculture vehicles, and great for EBSIS equipment. Not to mention if you call SLMH the liquid found inside Protoculture Cells - it would be really close to the source material for MOSPEADA.

But I rather, at this point chalk it up to something that needs to get some errata.

[glitterboy2098]

again, the problem with using the zentreadi dialog as a guide is that they seem to attribute everything to protoculture. see my afformentioned flower-power enhanced lips..

some of those statements could just be the Zentreadi detecting the energy from really powerful conventional fusion reactors, and automatically assuming protoculture is involved because thats how the masters would do it.

likewise the "reflex weaponry" from the 1st episode visually seem to be fairly conventional nuclear warheads. so why do they need alien plant juice to work?

the Zentreadi definition of "protoculture" seems to be how we would define "magic".

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

the Zentreadi definition of "protoculture" seems to be how we would define "magic".

Except that Breetai informs Azonia that they are almost depleted of protoculture and must have the human's supply. That was BEFORE Khyron's Revenge. Its not like Azonia would simply withhold information about Protoculture from Khyron, especially in light of the dialogue from Season's Greetings.

[glitterboy2098]

.

the Zentreadi definition of "protoculture" seems to be how we would define "magic".

Except that Breetai informs Azonia that they are almost depleted of protoculture and must have the human's supply. That was BEFORE Khyron's Revenge. Its not like Azonia would simply withhold information about Protoculture from Khyron, especially in light of the dialogue from Season's Greetings.

doesn't nessicarily mean they know what it actualy is, or how it works. just that the supply of the stuff they know as protoculture was getting low, and that the SDF-1 had a supply of it.

nor does that mean they'd be able to recognize a protoculture system from a conventional nuclear one. remember, the zent's are never set up to particulalrly knowledgeble. they're set up to be fairly ignorant of how their own machinery works (and yes, i know the zents are shown repairing things. but repairing stuff and understanding how things work are two different things if your tech is modular enough. i can build a computer if given the right parts, but don't ask me to explain how the parts all do thier jobs...)

[Jefffar]

Just a reminder, play nice in the debate kids, I hate having to go all moderator.