Life Expectancy in Chaos Earth

[Xar]

I don't have access to my books right now, but I seem to remember that immediately prior to the coming of the Rifts, the life expectancy was something like 200 years. Now, obviously, there's a really good chance that most, but not all, people will die early due to apocalyptic type schtuff, and/or being killed by dimensional interlopers. What I'm wondering, though...is say, someone didn't die of violence, how much do you think the survivors' life expectancy would be reduced due to environmental, loss of technology (medical and medicine)?

So, could say, General Cabot, who is nearly as old as the PA Calender, be a grandson of an Apocalypse survivor?

[Braden Campbell]

Tough call.

If the world gets set back to an 1800's level of sophistication (or worse) then the life expectancy would drop from 200 years down to like 50.

[RockJock]

I also take the approach that the 200 years is with constant medical treatments. Biosystem heart when you need one. Replace your spleen ect.

[Jefffar]

Durign the Apocolypse, I would say you could measure life expectancy one of two ways . .. weeks or minutes.

Once the peake of the apocolypse was over, life expectancy would probably go to around 40 years or so, given the high incidence of violent death and the lack of medical facilities.

As the world restabalized aproaching thhe PA era, life expcetancy in established centres would proably reach today or even 2050 standards. By abiut 50 PA, int he best population centres we could be looking at Golden Age type life expectancies.

[Jason Richards]

life expectancy was something like 200 years.

Interesting sidenote... unless they have medical means to make you younger once you've grown old (possible), there is no way that this number could be confirmed. The Rifts came in 2098, and it's currently 2006. Someone would have to be over 100 today to live to 200 at the Coming of the Rifts.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

great stuck with you Geeks for another 100 yrs

[Nightmaster]

I read that section again and it states that most of the life expectancy of pre-rifts age was due to genetic manipulations done after the birth.

In that case, if a person of that age dont die because of monsters or natural disasters, it is very possible that such person could live to see the stabilishing of the post apocalyptic calendar.

[Jason Richards]

life expectancy was something like 200 years.

Interesting sidenote... unless they have medical means to make you younger once you've grown old (possible), there is no way that this number could be confirmed. The Rifts came in 2098, and it's currently 2006. Someone would have to be over 100 today to live to 200 at the Coming of the Rifts.

I always took it to mean that with genetic manipulation, human life span could "theoretically" reach 200 years because of what the math says

The book actually says that people lived that long.

[Razzinold]

Just a side note, I think the genetic tweaking was done before birth, not after. If you read about Lt. Gen. Sawyer, it says she was tweaked before birth to be smart, strong, tall , etc.
Also it said (I think) males were like 175yrs and women 180, and some people lived to be 200. The book also said that a 30-40 yr old looked and felt to be in their 20's

[Nightmaster]

Just a side note, I think the genetic tweaking was done before birth, not after. If you read about Lt. Gen. Sawyer, it says she was tweaked before birth to be smart, strong, tall , etc.
Also it said (I think) males were like 175yrs and women 180, and some people lived to be 200. The book also said that a 30-40 yr old looked and felt to be in their 20's

If that was the case, then those characteristcs would be pass to the offspring of Chaos Earth humans and so most of the people from North America would have natural lifespans in the level of 150 years.

Now if the tweaking is done after the birth, then the generation that have benefited from the genetics treatments would not pass that characteristc to their children, allowing to the very low life spectancy that exist in PA times (Ie. for those that dont die of unatural reasons).

[Jason Richards]

Just a side note, I think the genetic tweaking was done before birth, not after. If you read about Lt. Gen. Sawyer, it says she was tweaked before birth to be smart, strong, tall , etc.
Also it said (I think) males were like 175yrs and women 180, and some people lived to be 200. The book also said that a 30-40 yr old looked and felt to be in their 20's

If that was the case, then those characteristcs would be pass to the offspring of Chaos Earth humans and so most of the people from North America would have natural lifespans in the level of 150 years.

Now if the tweaking is done after the birth, then the generation that have benefited from the genetics treatments would not pass that characteristc to their children, allowing to the very low life spectancy that exist in PA times (Ie. for those that dont die of unatural reasons).

I don't see how doing the "tweaking" in the womb would be different than after birth. I think that's probably how it is done.

[Razzinold]

I don't see how doing the "tweaking" in the womb would be different than after birth. I think that's probably how it is done.[/quote]

Well in my opinion, I would say it would be more effective (easier ?) to shape the cells as they are growing as opposed to after the baby is born, but who knows with all the Tech they have (in the game) anything is possible. All I was saying is that I was pretty sure it was done before birth and what the life expectancies were. I'll check my book when I get home from work to double check if it was before or after birth. Anyways I didn't mean to sidetrack the thread, I was just adding my two cents into the conversation. My original point being, I think the people who are alive now, could still live to be 180, if the demons somehow didn't get them first even with the lack of medical supplies/treatments. If they are already tweaked then I don't think they would just all of a sudden die, unless killed by outside forces.

[Jason Richards]

life expectancy was something like 200 years.

Interesting sidenote... unless they have medical means to make you younger once you've grown old (possible), there is no way that this number could be confirmed. The Rifts came in 2098, and it's currently 2006. Someone would have to be over 100 today to live to 200 at the Coming of the Rifts.

I always took it to mean that with genetic manipulation, human life span could "theoretically" reach 200 years because of what the math says

The book actually says that people lived that long.

Edited for inappropriate comments. Be nice to each other or the thread gets locked - Jefffar Just do what you always do and ignore the stupidity and replace it with something better thought out if it is actually having an effect upon your campaign.

It's not a huge error, and a simple one to make. That sort of thing has no bearing on actual gameplay, so it's not like it's something that was playtested.

[Xar]

Yeah, it's not a big deal...I was just writing some backstory fluff, and I was trying to plot generations....nothing important.

[Jason Richards]

These kinds of errors are rampant in RIFTS. Any time technology is involved, arbitrary decisions are made by Palladium. I play the game because the setting is interesting, understanding that the game mechanics and technology are the weak points of the game and need to be corrected when problems come up. I'm just surprised when people act like this sort of stuff isn't the norm.

Examples?

[Marrowlight]

These kinds of errors are rampant in RIFTS. Any time technology is involved, arbitrary decisions are made by Palladium. I play the game because the setting is interesting, understanding that the game mechanics and technology are the weak points of the game and need to be corrected when problems come up. I'm just surprised when people act like this sort of stuff isn't the norm.

Examples?

1. Computers are way too primitive.
2. Wireless communications are not prevalent enough.

You'd almost think the game world was designed/developed/written in the mid 80s

[Jason Richards]

640K ought to be enough for anybody.

[Marrowlight]

Look, let's break it down like this. You seem to be an electronics guy. Go find a doctor and talk to him about Rifts. Go find a professional driver and talk to him about rifts. Go find any person who has any real skilled job and talk to them about how 99% of all RPG's handle explaining their profession.

Most of them will go the same way chats with Air Traffic Controllers talk about Pushing Tin.....it's a fictionalized reality developed by a guy more concerned with dreaming up fictional worlds and actually learning how to write than he was living these lives and developing first hand knowledge of every job and facet of the world.


He gives us the framework, we change it from there. I'd rather KS spent his next week figuring out some neat new monsters for BTS or pimping out some new robotic bits and pieces for Sourcebook 1 than sit down and do some multicentury projecting on how computer technology is going to work. He's obviously better at the one and you are obviously better at the other (else you'd be the one publishing RPGs) so play to your strengths and let him play to his.


Edit -- and if you really feel strongly enough about it, write up the things you'd expect to see and send them off to the Rifter. It's worked for lots of other people.

[Jason Richards]

It's fantasy, man... fiction. A game that was super-realistic (which isn't possible in many of the cases you mention, as we have no way of projecting tech hundreds of years into the future, or accurately pairing stats with real-life skills) would be super-boring.

Besides, the things you mention either 1) don't affect gameplay, 2) are intrinsic to all RPGs, or 3) are actually not the case at all, but are handled with official rules of which you are apparently unaware.

Marrowlight is right. If you feel so strongly, you should write an article for the Rifter. Many times alternate ways to look at skills or abilities have been published (alternative WPs, P.P.E. Channeling, the military skills article, advanced WPs, etc.).

[Marrowlight]

Marrowlight is right.

Ahh, I was in need of a fresh sig quote.

If you feel so strongly, you should write an article for the Rifter. Many times alternate ways to look at skills or abilities have been published (alternative WPs, P.P.E. Channeling, the military skills article, advanced WPs, etc.).

You just can't stop pimping yourself out like this, can you.

[Jason Richards]

If you feel so strongly, you should write an article for the Rifter. Many times alternate ways to look at skills or abilities have been published (alternative WPs, P.P.E. Channeling, the military skills article, advanced WPs, etc.).

You just can't stop pimping yourself out like this, can you.

I've always said that I could write the next great American novel, and still I'd be more remembered for that article than anything else.

[Marrowlight]

If you feel so strongly, you should write an article for the Rifter. Many times alternate ways to look at skills or abilities have been published (alternative WPs, P.P.E. Channeling, the military skills article, advanced WPs, etc.).

You just can't stop pimping yourself out like this, can you.

I've always said that I could write the next great American novel, and still I'd be more remembered for that article than anything else.

I really need to sit down and read it in depth one day. I skimmed it long, long ago but I run magic so differently from traditional Palladium rules anyway I never gave it much attention.

[Kryzbyn]

Here you go man:

Get A Job!® Role-Playing Game

Get A Job!® Ultimate Edition is a completely rewritten and updated version of the popular, original game played and enjoyed by an estimated 1.5 hundred gamers.

The rules will be tweaked and clarified. The characters and setting expanded and defined. There will be more world information, tips on how to use the Get A Job! time-line and World Books, rewrites on Occupational Character Classes (O.C.C.s), and in some cases, expansions of, and more details on, O.C.C.s like the Janitor, Health Inspector, Street Line Painter, Tax-Wizard and others.

The information will also be better organized, the rules clearly explained, the writing crisp and compelling. The wonder and infinite possibilities of Get A Job!® all brought to pulse-numbing life like never before.

Our goal is to make Get A Job!® even more drab and monotonous than real life, while at the same time making the rules better organized, clearer and easier to use. Of course, there will be a few fun changes and additions, but nothing so dramatic as to make the 40+ available sourcebooks obsolete, nor have to use your imagination.

August 2008 will be the release date!

Collectors looking to snag a copy of Get A Job!® Ultimate Edition’s first printing should do so quickly, as we expect the demand to be heavy.

The Get A Job!® RPG Ultimate Edition must be used as a stand-alone role-playing game, not combined with characters and elements from the entire Palladium Megaverse®. Players can not easily bring in characters from The Palladium Fantasy RPG®, Heroes Unlimited™, Splicers™, Nightbane®, Beyond the Supernatural™, Mechanoid Invasion®, or any of Palladium's RPG lines, nor should any one without suspension of disbelief want to!
# Approximately 30 unique Occupational Character Classes, including Cops, cleaners, Grocery Store Managers, Professionals, Dog Catchers (for un-leashed dogs), Joggers, Clerks, Telemarketers, Street Line Painters, Bus Drivers, Pimps, Chinese Restraunt Cooks, Meter Maids, and many others.
# Mundane and normal creatures, like dogs, available as player characters, others are horrifying menaces from the zoo.
# Medical Sciences offer a vast range of mechanical augmentation, like an artificial heart, good for a whole 2 years!
# Psychic powers are the source of the Soothsayer, Tarot Card Reader and Miss Cleo's abilities.
# Strange forms of employment are at the command of characters like the C.P.A., Supermarket clerk, Elementary Teacher, and Tax-Wizard (who combine math and technology).
# Super-technology with Mega-Salary™ income, taxes, rent, power bills, and more taxes.
# Microsoft. Humankind's salvation, or its own worst nightmare?
# Character sheets.
# Cover by Bob Ross.
# Color end sheets by Bob Ross.
# New artwork and color pages throughout.
# Written and created by Sevin Kiembieda.
# $33.95 – approx. 300 pages, including color sections.
# Cat. No. 707-HC – ISBN 123457-150-8 (this will replace the original softbound edition currently in print).

Behold, the power of sarcasm.

[Chaos]

Here you go man:

Get A Job!® Role-Playing Game

Get A Job!® Ultimate Edition is a completely rewritten and updated version of the popular, original game played and enjoyed by an estimated 1.5 million gamers.

The rules will be tweaked and clarified. The characters and setting expanded and defined. There will be more world information, tips on how to use the Get A Job! time-line and World Books, rewrites on Occupational Character Classes (O.C.C.s), and in some cases, expansions of, and more details on, O.C.C.s like the Janitor, Health Inspector, Street Line Painter, Tax-Wizard and others.

The information will also be better organized, the rules clearly explained, the writing crisp and compelling. The wonder and infinite possibilities of Get A Job!® all brought to pulse-numbing life like never before.

Our goal is to make Get A Job!® even more drab and monotonous than real life, while at the same time making the rules better organized, clearer and easier to use. Of course, there will be a few fun changes and additions, but nothing so dramatic as to make the 40+ available sourcebooks obsolete, nor have to use your imagination.

August 2008 will be the release date!

Collectors looking to snag a copy of Get A Job!® Ultimate Edition’s first printing should do so quickly, as we expect the demand to be heavy.

The Get A Job!® RPG Ultimate Edition must be used as a stand-alone role-playing game, not combined with characters and elements from the entire Palladium Megaverse®. Players can not easily bring in characters from The Palladium Fantasy RPG®, Heroes Unlimited™, Splicers™, Nightbane®, Beyond the Supernatural™, Mechanoid Invasion®, or any of Palladium's RPG lines, nor should any one without suspension of disbelief want to!
# Approximately 30 unique Occupational Character Classes, including Cops, cleaners, Grocery Store Managers, Professionals, Dog Catchers (for un-leashed dogs), Joggers, Clerks, Telemarketers, Street Line Painters, Bus Drivers, Pimps, Chinese Restraunt Cooks, Meter Maids, and many others.
# Mundane and normal creatures, like dogs, available as player characters, others are horrifying menaces from the zoo.
# Medical Sciences offer a vast range of mechanical augmentation, like an artificial heart, good for a whole 2 years!
# Psychic powers are the source of the Soothsayer, Tarot Card Reader and Miss Cleo's abilities.
# Strange forms of employment are at the command of characters like the C.P.A., Supermarket clerk, Elementary Teacher, and Tax-Wizard (who combine math and technology).
# Super-technology with Mega-Salary™ income, taxes, rent, power bills, and more taxes.
# Microsoft. Humankind's salvation, or its own worst nightmare?
# Character sheets.
# Cover by Bob Ross.
# Color end sheets by Bob Ross.
# New artwork and color pages throughout.
# Written and created by Sevin Kiembieda.
# $33.95 – approx. 300 pages, including color sections.
# Cat. No. 707-HC – ISBN 123457-150-8 (this will replace the original softbound edition currently in print).

Behold, the power of sarcasm.

LoL whens it go n Pre-Order I gotta get me a copy

I Can't believe I actually read all that Frap but I must admit I love your wit

Thx for the immense chuckle I look forward to future installments as always and wonder as to the source books that could be created

[Kryzbyn]

LOL You're welcome. My wit is a gift to be shared, to be sure

Got a wee bit tired of the lack of imagination folks who cannot get past what things are like today to see the possibilities of the future.

The Get a Job! RPG is for you.

[Kryzbyn]

Alot of whining

So, then, you don't like PB RPGS.

You continue to play PB titles because...?

Alot of the same arguments you use for Rifts, I have used for WEG in the past. So, I don't play WEG games. It's a matter of preference, which really can't (read: shouldn't) be arguable. I don't go on thier web boards and gripe though...I'm just saying.

I know this sounds absolutely rude, but when constructive criticism begins to turn toward

RIFTS is the worst major RPG in this way.

then I fell that there is nothing left to discuss. If Rifts is not the game for you, then don't play it. Simple.

Anything else?

[Marrowlight]

Y'know, I'm just gonna drop it. difference of opinion.

[Kryzbyn]

Y'know, I'm just gonna drop it. difference of opinion.

Better man than I.

[Marrowlight]

Y'know, I'm just gonna drop it. difference of opinion.

Better man than I.

/shrug, I'm on the boards to have fun, not fight.

[Kryzbyn]

Well, me too, but I'll do the latter when warranted.

[Marrowlight]

Well, me too, but I'll do the latter when warranted.

This isn't one of those time.

[Kryzbyn]

LOL not you...
ROFL

[Jason Richards]

Yes, all RPGs have these kinds of problems. RIFTS is just a much bigger offender than systems like D&D or GURPS. The skill system is a particularly bad eye-sore. The only redeeming feature is the physical skill mechanic. All skills are governed by IQ? I think that it can be improved without making it "boring".

I think that you should recognize that what you think is an improvment might be a negative for other gamers. For example, I find the skill progression in Palladium games, and using the %-based system to be great. It allows different skills to advance at different rates, while maintaining the same mechanic for all rolls. It's very precise and elegant, in my opinion.

We don't have any way of reliably predicting future technology, but ignoring everything that doesn't have an obvious cool-neat factor, then going overboard with the rest is far from a good job. Often, the most interesting technology isn't the borging, power armor, and juicing, but the features the body armor, homes, streets, etc should have.

As an engineer, I agree with you in part. My favorite part of world-building is the "little stuff" like infrastructure, materials, etc. However, as an author, I recognize that anything beyond very basic fluff text for that kind of thing turns off consumers. Your average gamer cares about the whiz-bang Flash Gordon stuff, not the finer points of the molecular structure of Mega-Damage materials, the filtration systems on EBA, or the driving physics behind a hovercycle.

When I write, I try to keep these things in mind so that if you were to do an analysis of the material, it would make sense, but I make the specifics invisible. Space is far too limited in a book in the first place; it doesn't need more taken up with technical explanations that most people will just flip past.

When you claim there are official rules that I'm not aware of, bring up at least one example that you have gleaned from my posts.

I just didn't want to derail the conversation, but since you asked, it seems that you're not aware of stat/skill minuses for low attributes, and the fact that skills aren't governed by a 98% max all the time but are issued minuses for difficulty or the situation (much like setting difficulties for D20-based skill attempts).

I would never write anything for anyone under the terms for the RIFTER. You guys may consider them acceptable. I do not. I also don't have the energy to spend on such a project. My wife and I work on novels and I have a wide interest in many topics, which helps with world building. And posting here is not consuming the kind of energy it takes to do quality work.

I don't know what your experience is, but the Rifter is a great deal for aspiring authors and fans alike. The pay is good, full credit is given, and the terms are extremely reasonable. I've known a few people that objected to signing away their rights to the material published in the Rifter, but that's just stupid because anything you write for any Palladium game is based on their IP, so you don't have any right to it in the first place.

[Jason Richards]

While I have little interest in publishing my own RPG, lets wait another 10 years before we decide KS is better in the publishing department. I have a project in the works that might pan out.

Arrogant, much?

[kevinslkt]

Uhh...,people, I believe the topic was Life Expectancy in Chaos Earth.

[Xar]

The life of this thread has been much longer than I expected it to be, that's for sure.

[Kryzbyn]

OH! umm ok...I'll say...same as the previous dark ages?

[Jason Richards]

My problem wasn't with the type of dice that are rolled. It is with a system that provides no guidance for difficulty and can't handle opposed rolls elegantly. The skill system is only elegant in that it ignores all complicating factors that would bring it closer to reality.

It was an example of a common "OMG Palladium's system is teh suxxors!!!1!" argument (percent-based skills) that some people like.

It is true that you don't always want to present the underlying concepts that drive the details. However, it becomes painfully obvious when you don't have anything and are making up random numbers. KS doesn't have a meaningful system and it shows.

Again, I'll point out that all of Palladium's games are fantasy games. In many cases, tech is a form of fantasy as well... just an alternative to magic (just like a good deal of mecha-centered anime, Star Wars, most major comic books, etc.). This is opposed to what you seem to be talking about... science fiction... where technology is the central theme and is supposed to be grounded in reality, even if it makes some assumptions and moves forward (anything by Asimov, Michael Crichton, and so on). I'm sure there are some games out there in this genre, but none come to mind, except maybe some movie/tv licenses.

I mentioned that you need at least a 17 stat to get a BONUS because they added the minuses in RUE.

Now you're getting down to personal preference. You think that number should be lower, and for some reason throw out attribute penalties as reasonable modifiers (and are no different than adding bonuses, statistically). That's all well and good, but don't act like it's an inherent flaw just because you would lower the threshold by a few notches.

I am also aware that a GM can ad-lib by adding a penalty to a skill roll. However, there is no system for doing so.

Well, for one... you're wrong about their being no system. There is a table of penalties to use as a go-by. This is no different than the GM setting difficulty levels that the character must roll against, which is the more common mechanic.

Further, the 98% max skill indicates that this sort of thing was not considered in original development. The 98% cut-off is arbitrary when you take skill penalties or opposed rolls into account.

No, again you're just disagreeing with the mechanic. The mechanic says that under normal circumstances, the most skilled person will succeed 98% of the time. The same mechanic also says that the same skilled person will only succeed 93% of the time in a low pressure situation. This isn't a problem with the game, but a personal preference held by you. Please separate the two.

$10 per ~1000 words is ~$0.01 per word. The 3 free copies are pretty much standard otherwise. This is way on the low end of compensation out there.

The numbers are actually a little better than that, in my experience. For one, Palladium doesn't only provide three copies, but five or six in my experience, and that dates back to before I was writing World Books. But, you're ballpark.

I would not have a problem, except for the submission conditions that more or less say that the author agrees to give up any rights to their ideas for the right to submit.

Untrue. You give up the rights only if published. If your submission is rejected, you retain all rights to whatever concepts you developed (though not Palladium IP, which you never had a right to in the first place).

They may be derivative, but that doesn't make them the property of Palladium.

If you have written a story, character, adventure, etc. based on someone else's trademarks, they get a say in how said trademarks are used. They're protected. That's what a trademark is.

It just means I can't use them to profit.

Money only ups the ante, so to speak. I'll tell you what... go write, film, and direct a movie about Superman, release it, donate all of the profits to charity, and tell me how long it takes you to get sued into oblivion. Ultimtely, it's not about profit; it's about control over the property. Kevin owns "Rifts." He owns "Cyber-Knight." He owns "Glitter-Boy." They are property, and you have every bit as much legal "right" to use them as you do to borrow Kevin's car or raid his fridge.

There is a big difference, which you apparently don't grasp. It isn't worth my time and energy to deal with this kind of lop-sided relationship.

That's your perogative, of course. Nobody is saying that you have to, or that you should, or that it's even the best deal out there. All I'm saying is that it's a very good situation for an author. You get to use an established property, get your own by-line in a widely-read magazine, and get paid LUMP SUM (not so much a big deal for Rifters, but a seriously good deal for penning a whole book... way better than almost all other publishers), you have a built-in fan base for feedback and all of that, etc.

Look at Bill Coffin, for example. Great writer... really a great creative mind. He's written at least one (maybe two?) novels. How many people have read them? Try to find something he wrote at the magazine for which he worked. Now check out his work for Palladium, and note the thousands upon thousands of people who have read his RPG stuff. That right there is the biggest advantage to giving the Rifter a shot if you're an author.

[Jason Richards]

While I have little interest in publishing my own RPG, lets wait another 10 years before we decide KS is better in the publishing department. I have a project in the works that might pan out.

Arrogant, much?

Not as impressed with KS as you are.

Your original comment really is just absolutely incredible. You're talking about a guy that is a leader in his industry, highly-respected by his peers as well as his fans, and has been in the business for over 25 years (the majority of that at or near the top), and you have done... what, exactly? Kevin has sold a million or more copies of his books.

You may one day be a great publisher, but you sure can't hold a candle to Kevin now. Not many people can. I'm certain that I'll have a very successful career as a writer because I'm good at what I do and I work very, very hard. But right now, I can't scrape the gum off of Kevin's shoes. I haven't done anything yet; he has.

All I'm saying is that you don't have a leg to stand on in the "you versus Kevin in publishing" department. Best of luck in the future, though.

[Rockwolf66]

OH! umm ok...I'll say...same as the previous dark ages?

If I am not misstaken the average lifespan in "the Darkages" was only 35 years.

Wikipedia

I would say that it would be a rather short lifespan for the first few decades after the Great cataclism, something like L<20y.

with L= Lifespan
and
y= Years.

[Rockwolf66]

i think it would be lower in Chaos Earth. try 6 months.

According to one of the GM's guides that I re-read not too long back. the average life span durring the dark ages was 26. this means that at least 50% of people died before that age. My guess is that most of those older than 26 were women ( just as in Violent gangs women tend to live longer). One of the major reasons for that is pregonancy, ie. when a girl gets knocked up she tends to act with alot more caution. I could go on and look up sources but I don't have the time right now.

[Rockwolf66]

Yo Wang,
We are not threadjacking. We are discussing what such a disaster would do in a logical semi-Scientific manner. While there is some indication of what the average lifespan after the initial disaster was. we don't know how long the initial survivors lasted.

[tmikesecrist3]

I think some of you are missing something, life exectancy can not be fingered by just one facter.... bareing accadent or voilect, lets look at the facters that come into play
the human genome but not as much as you think, how do you think we can exect to live on avg, a 100%, and our bodies age slower than thay did 200, or even on hondred years ago... the fancters that apply

nutrtion= enofe food to eat, and the correct food to eat
understanding of exersise= how much helps keep us young and how much abuses our body
working invarment= bareing accadents.... we are not abuseing our body or wearing it out with work thanks to outamation
sanatation/clean drinking water= pervents deases such as collera, dissentarie, ect.
not to mention the desses spread by roteing bodies
health care with more attion payed to perventive care than we now pay= vactantions
better ways of dealing with inlness or health problems when something does go worng, no one dying well waiting for an orgen transplant "oh cher my love, may your goddess keep you in her loveing arms"


now what do the ppl whom live throw ce and mange not to be lounch or murdered, have to look forword to....
*not enofe to eat, infact many will starve to death
*most will be two busy serviveing to exersises, infact the work thing angeen, will be forced to work long hours with little or no machael aid. whereing out there bodies,
*untreated waste and water,,,,, to words callera and dissntary, thow poleo also comes to mind
*un barryied bodies where deseases
*little or no perventive health care, ie vaccsantations, Small pox any one???
*little or no helth care once sick, or hurnt thow hurt falls under accadents.... if you are weak by resent illness, such as collera, or hunger, than even a cold can trun deadly and fast....
** last think I can think of is all that valcanic ash cant be good for you!!!! lung cancer, asma, ect....

[Jefffar]

Yup . . . see the Mindwerks book for a few examples.

[ZorValachan]

The thing with Life Expectancy and reading about it in history books is that people have been living very long from ancient times, to middle ages, to now. It's just that average life expectancy is an -average- mean, not median, or mode.

1 guy lives to be 100
a baby dies after 1 month.

The average life expectancy is 50.
No one actually died at 50.

In the Middle Ages people lived to be 70+. Just all the infant deaths, deaths from battle, etc. 'lowered' the average to 35-40. People in their 30s and 40s weren't dying naturally like clockwork.

Charlesmagne lived to be 73
Augustus lived to be 82

These are people that had 'doctors' feeding them mercury and bleeding them with leeches, trying to balance 'humours', yet having a human lifespan not much less (if even less) than modern humans.

This was beat into my head in Anthropological Statistics (Life Span, Population growth/decline etc.) as well as again, when I got my second degree in Classical Civilization.

If you want a life-span of Golden Age humans there's about 2 ways to go.
1) Same as humans through-out time 70+. Genetic tweaking was done on an individual basis, not passed along to offspring.

2) Genetic tweaking actually changed human genetic makeup, and the descendants would have GA era 'natural' lifespan of the 200+ years CE talks about.

Personally, I go with #1, as I don't see any evidence of 200+ year old humans in Rifts that aren't magical/mystical in nature/occupation. Like all those Elite CS citizens who don't leave the megafortresses or put themselves in any danger.

Anything else is he died because of monster, earthquake, leyline flare, volcano, disease, etc.

[Jefffar]

Yup . . . see the Mindwerks book for a few examples.

didn't they use MOM immortality weirdness to achieve that, rather than the borg process itself?

A little of both actually.

[ZorValachan]

Issue i have with this is that when the events of the coming of the rifts happen places where you are tweaked are now gone. Also the events of the Rifts main are at least 300 years since the coming of the rifts. So with the coming of the rifts who knows - seeing as we are looking at a 90% die off rate - i would say not high.

I'm discussing natural rate of life.
'Old' people in Rifts seem to be in their 70s as written (NPC stats).

In real history people have been living until their 70s and 80s since earliest actual recorded (not myth) history.

The 'average' lifespan of 30, 35, 40, toted so highly in books is not the common age people died. For every infant death (common) you had to have some guy living to be 70 or 80. Or many people living to 50s and 60s. It is no different than today other than in developed countries, infant mortality is lower which improves the average.

Case in Point. If 30 was when people were dying back in ancient history, why was Alexander stated to have died young by ancient historians who lived during that time period? If people died at 30, 35, 40, he would have been seen as an old man, not as the 'young man dying in his prime'. Caesar (who died because of assassination) lived to be 56.

So we have a continuous and established verifiable history of humans living naturally until 70s and 80s for thousands of years. Dying younger was due to war, disease, natural disasters, etc. Things that are not dying from 'old age'.

I would not see humans suddenly aging quickly and having a natural lifespan of 30 years.

Of course all the Rifts, monsters, disasters, plagues, etc. are killing people of all ages. And most of of the human population dies. But it doesn't change the fact that if a kid in the middle of CE survives and doesn't die before old age, that he would live to be 70 or 80.

About my genetic comment. #1 was saying that the humans during the GA were tweaked to live 200+, but this tweak was individual, didn't change the genetic coding transfer to children, did not get passed on, and thus CE humans have the potential to live to 70s and 80s baring unnatural deaths.

#2 was if CE genetic manipulation (tweaking) changed the human genetic code, this code would be passed along to offspring, who would have the potential lifespan of 200+ years.

I would take (from Rifts NPC ages) that #1 is correct. The people at the beginning of the CE would have a potential to live 200+ years as they were 'tweaked', but offspring would not get this genetic code, and no facilities to do such to them, limiting them to a much lesser maximum natural life span.

[ZorValachan]

No, in fact I am taking all of this into consideration. I even explained against your arguments before you even wrote them.

You cannot take disease, bad water, death by creatures into consideration when talking about lifespan. Because these do not cause humans to die 'naturally'. They are occurances that already have rules. Death by combat; there are rules for that. Death by disease; there are rules for that. That is shortening a specific individual's life, not the potential human lifespan.

People throughout ancient and medieval history (with their own 'dark ages' periods) lived to their 70s and 80s. This is documented fact. They lived under conditions of poor nutrition (they didn't understand it), extremely poor medicine, and poor sanitary conditions compared to today. Conditions 'western society' could not imagine.

Alexander's generals Antipater and Parmenio lived to their 70s. Antipater lived to be about 78. He was a general under Phillip, back when generals fought in the front line. Parmenio was about 70 at his death. He lived under the stress of constant war campaigning for decades. He died because he was assassinated, not because his body 'wore out'. If he wasn't killed, there is no reason he wouldn't have lived well into his late 70s and 80s.

And even though CE people might be under harsh, unsanitary conditions. The knowledge they do have (try to wash your hands before you eat or apply first aid to someone, Change bandages), is leaps and bounds above what the ancients knew ("You are sick?, let's give you a chemical mixed in mercury". "Like to wear make-up? this lovely lead-based cosmetic will look wonderful on you.").

You cannot take factors into account that prematurely shorten a person's lifespan. Harsh conditions do not shorten it. Being stupid, getting killed, getting a disease, natural disasters, etc. are not factors in potential human lifespan.

If you want the 'average mean' age of death. It is quite simple. Take the population of the Earth on December 2098. Add up every single person's age. Divide that total by the entire population. That's the 'average age'. Why? Because every person dies. The amount who do not die is so minute, it doesn't matter. That's the flaw to 'average life expectancy'. In CE it doesn't matter how old, young, old, ancient, you are. You are dead, not based on your age, but because it is the Apocalypse. Roll a 1d8-1. That's how many days any person has to live after the beginning of the apocalypse.

The very extremely few survivors. If they can get food, get shelter, and not die from the horrors. Even if they live in caves, could make it to their 70s.

Look at our cousins the neandertal: Bold is mine.

worldmuseumofman

"The Old Man of La Chapelle-aux-Saints" was the first nearly complete skeleton of a Neanderthal individual ever discovered. The original incorrect reconstruction done by the noted paleontologist Marcellin Boule overlooked the fact that the skeleton was quite elderly when deceased. The bones were in such a degenerative stage because of the advanced age of the individual that the reconstruction of the skeleton depicted the Neanderthal in a stooped-over pose and possessing a frame that would have had an ape-like gait. This wrongly influenced our perception of Neanderthals in both science and popular culture for so many years despite other discoveries of skeletons that disprove this early belief. These misconception of the primitiveness of Neanderthals has remained with us even today.

Also take into account that when our Homo Sapiens Sapiens ancestors (as opposed to our homo sapiens neandertalis cousins) went from being primarily hunter/gathers (harsher living conditions) to agriculture/farming (more 'civilized' living conditions) the average mean of life dropped in this neolithic period and took thousands of years to get back to what it was before.

Why? Because with traveling, hiding in small groups, a person is not exposed to as much disease, they are not living in the same spot, adding over and over to the same unsanitary conditions.


So a person will die because of something unrelated to lifespan (disease, disaster, monster).
Or live to when they get too old to do things on their own (60s and 70s), lose their teeth (can't chew, etc.).
Or live a bit longer if they have family/tribe that can care for them in their old age(70s and 80s).
Just like today, and just like in 160,000 BCE

You don't just die because you reach the 'magical life expectancy age' of 35, or 40, or whatever. If you survive, you last until the naturally occurring age processes start malfunctioning due to the way DNA replicates.

[Jefffar]

True, average life expectancy is not an absolute life expectancy (unless we are in the world of Logan's Run). It does however give us an idea of how difficult it is in a certain set of circumstances to reach a ripe old age. In the modern world, much of the gap between male and female life expectancies isn't related to health factors, but the higher likelihood of death by misadventure by male youths.

So an average life expectancy of 40 doesn't make it impossible to grow to be 90, but the odds of it happening are significantly reduced.

[ZorValachan]

I don't have access to my books right now, but I seem to remember that immediately prior to the coming of the Rifts, the life expectancy was something like 200 years. Now, obviously, there's a really good chance that most, but not all, people will die early due to apocalyptic type schtuff, and/or being killed by dimensional interlopers. What I'm wondering, though...is say, someone didn't die of violence, how much do you think the survivors' life expectancy would be reduced due to environmental, loss of technology (medical and medicine)?

So, could say, General Cabot, who is nearly as old as the PA Calender, be a grandson of an Apocalypse survivor?

I'll agree completely with your point Jeffar, with the caveat, that saying '40' or something is 'average' life expectancy doesn't mean people start dropping dead at 40 and people consider 41 to be ancient.

I quoted the original post above. Xar rightly concluded that most people would die right away, or in the days, weeks, months immediately after the start of the apocalypse. That's going to lead to people of every single age dying and he points out this is not what he is looking for. Not deaths from earthquakes, monsters, etc. but what is reduced to environmental and loss of tech.

Western Tech allows us to get people to 90s and 100s. Above 110 is extremely rare.
Take tech out and we have to look back into the past. People lived to be 70s and 80s in very poor tech/environments.

Your going to get a lot of infant mortality (and also deaths of mothers in childbirth)
Young children dying.

If they get to puberty, they might be safe until (as you correctly pointed out) males get to 16 (maybe 18), and do stupid crazy things/start soldiering. because of the 'invincibility/maybe happens to others, but not to me mindset'. Females along this age are sadly prone to rape, victimization, death in childbearing or trying to provide for their children in difficult times.

If you can survive that. You are healthy and strong (baring disease, which can kill you) until the 50s when you body starts to wind down. You can get hurt easier doing chores. farming, choping wood, etc. If you don't have family/tribe support, this can lead to your death.

If you have support you can make it to 70s and 80s.

Males can pretty much reproduce until they die
Females will go through menopause.

IF the 200+ years lifespan from GA genetic tweaking is an actual change to the human genetic code. Then yes, some rifts humans may have a grandpa (2 steps) from the Dark Age 300 years ago. Their grandma will probably be a lot more recent

IF the tweaking was to an individual and not the human genetic code as a population, then you're looking at a minimum of 4-5 steps for the great-grandpappy who was there at the start of CE.

Most likely it is 10-15 generations as it would be now.