did anyone else overlook the change to Anti-Magic Cloud txt?

[Axelmania]

I only just noticed this now as it's kind of subtle.

Originally this 11th level spell (I think in PRPG it was a spell of legend?) was on page 185 and it specified this:

Savings Throw: Only an 18 to 20 saves

I had at the time figured this to be equivalent to "18 or higher" and assumed bonuses to save vs magic would help per usual. IE if I have +3 to save vs magic and roll a 15 then I resist the Anti-Magic Cloud.

Page 138 of Book of Magic however...

Only a Natural (unmodified) 18, 19 or 20 saves against the cloud

This is a massive conceptual shift of how magic battles might operate on Rifts or in the Megaverse in general... it pretty much comes down to "who fires off the cloud first" if save bonuses do not apply.

It seems like you can't even have cloud v cloud duels since they "can not be dispelled magically", being a rare (sole?) exception to it's effect of "negates all magic" and "casters can not use magic"...

Rune weapons being the one exception to magic weapons being negated probably explains why gods would horde such things...

This makes me wonder about non-magical countermeasures though...

Nega-Psychics and Psi-Nullifiers for example seem like they could be massive tiebreakers since they probably COULD dispel anti-magic clouds since they don't fall under a "dispelled magically" countermeasure.

Other means might be using psi or super powers to mind-control the mage who created it and get them to cancel it... though I don't know if that's possible if they're also a Diabolist and permanence-ward it.

Seems like any gods/demon lords who know this spell and happen to be Diabolists should be expected to have anti-magic clouds active in all their lairs as a countermeasure. If they have reason to need someone other than themselves use magic they could move to an area which allows it.

One thing I'm not totally clear on about this spell though: the "range" is described as a "radius" which I assume means from the caster... but does that radius follow them around (cloud moves) or would the center of the circle be fixed in the position the mage cast it and the mage can then venture outside of the circle?

[narcissus]

There's an added Note on the RUE version, which goes into much more detail around the save and what applies. Basically you get PE bonus only.

Nega-Psychics/Psi-Nullifiers could cancel out some of the PPE required to cast the spell, but if the caster used extra and got it off, that's that.

Range is definitely referring to the size (radius) of the cloud. The text reads that it's "large enough to hang over an entire town", so my assumption is that it's always at the same altitude above the caster (i.e. if they're up in the mountains, it would still be the same arbitrary distance above their head). I don't think it would follow the caster - they cast it, it pops up above their head covering an area with radius of 100' per level of the caster (with the caster at the center), and stays there for the duration.

[Axelmania]

There's an added Note on the RUE version, which goes into much more detail around the save and what applies. Basically you get PE bonus only.

Nice find, checking pg 221 that's definitely a strange one because it still says "natural (unmodified)".

Maybe that means that bonuses you get from attributes are considered part of "natural" resistance and not "modified" resistance?

That wouldn't really be consistent with how we see natural/unmodified used elsewhere though, like I'm pretty sure a PP bonus to strike doesn't count towards a natural/unmodified 20 to double the damage and auto-hit.

Another strange thing about this note is it explicitly excludes "bonuses that they would normally receive from any magical items or enchantments" but not a relatively common source of save vs magic: from your OCC.

I don't think it would follow the caster - they cast it, it pops up above their head covering an area with radius of 100' per level of the caster (with the caster at the center), and stays there for the duration.

This does make me curious about combing books for examples of this being talked about to see if there's a hint one way or another...

All I can remember off-hand is Pantheons 43's "light white fog" version from Enki (normally dark gray brown)

...

man I'm really glad you pointed this out to me, yeah it's slightly less powerful in one respect (PE bonuses count again!) but got more powerful in another respect: changing creatures who are "MDC due to magic" into SDC beings. Though I'm not really sure how wide a net that's meant to be... like there's that "Giant" spell for example, but what about stuff like dragons?

We never really get to know about most "MDC in Rifts" creatures and how they operate in negligible-magic settings like Splicers.

It also appears that RUE extended the rune-protection policy over to holy weapons as well, which seems like sort of a big deal (keeping them instructible/MD-inflicting)

- - -

"get only ONE chance to save vs an Anti-Magic Cloud once the Cloud is cast" seems kind of odd to me considering how it also talks about affecting magic that wasn't present in the cloud when it was first created:

"any magic that enters it falters (as above)"
"and magic spells cast from outside into the cloud covered area are negated the instant they enter"

Would that mean that these things don't get saves and that the savings throw is only applicable to casters themselves within the cloud when it was put up?

IE if you're outside casting in, or walk in after the cloud's put up, you just auto-fail?

[narcissus]

man I'm really glad you pointed this out to me, yeah it's slightly less powerful in one respect (PE bonuses count again!) but got more powerful in another respect: changing creatures who are "MDC due to magic" into SDC beings. Though I'm not really sure how wide a net that's meant to be... like there's that "Giant" spell for example, but what about stuff like dragons?

I was on the fence about this myself. I had some Demigod players that were up against a vamp intelligence that was using Anti-Magic Cloud on them. I allowed them to remain MDC, but from my understanding, Demigods are MDC on Rifts Earth because of magic, so the MDC to SDC should technically apply. I would say the same about dragons. A CS SAMAS - that's MDC cuz it's MDC. But this would apply to anything that's organic and SDC in PFRPG or HU. But then you have things like Brodkil, who are definitely not creatures of magic. Are they MDC on their home world, or is it the magic rich environment of Rifts Earth that makes them MDC?

[Axelmania]

I wonder if maybe it's not a new rule at all and the 50% MDC thing is just part of the usual "half the magic effect if you save" policy, applying to spells like Giant.

Actual beings not under an active spell might be a difference case though...

[narcissus]

Creatures that are normally Mega-Damage due to magic will become S.D.C. beings.

I do think given that sentence - specifically the word "normally" - that it's referring to creatures that are innately MDC, and not due to spell effects. Which, IMO, includes demigods and dragons. Definitely "Creatures of Magic" - sphinx, unicorns, faeries, etc. "Supernatural Creatures" (demons, deevils, etc.) would probably fall into this as well, but an argument could be made either way.

As for the spell Giant, I would assume that if you failed your save, the spell fizzles and you're no longer giant. If you make it, half MDC.

Would that mean that these things don't get saves and that the savings throw is only applicable to casters themselves within the cloud when it was put up?

IE if you're outside casting in, or walk in after the cloud's put up, you just auto-fail?

I would probably allow one chance to save per caster, whether they were under it when it was cast, or outside it casting in, or outside it and entering its influence. But if they failed their save they couldn't just run out and back in and try again - this particular instance of the spell got them.

[Axelmania]

Creatures that are normally Mega-Damage due to magic will become S.D.C. beings.

I do think given that sentence - specifically the word "normally" - that it's referring to creatures that are innately MDC, and not due to spell effects.

Don't they usually say "due to high PPE environment" rather than "due to magic" though?

I'm actually having trouble thinking of MDC settings where MDC creatures are SDC though... it's something I don't recall being brought up in Phase World / Wormwood / Robotech / Skraypers which are the only four I can remember.

I would probably allow one chance to save per caster, whether they were under it when it was cast, or outside it casting in, or outside it and entering its influence. But if they failed their save they couldn't just run out and back in and try again - this particular instance of the spell got them.

So basically "once per casting" but the roll might be delayed until after you go in.

Sort of like you really don't bother rolling damage for a soul drinker weapon until after you make the savings throw so you know whether they take half damage (if it sucks the soul) or double damage (if it fails)

[drewkitty ~..~]

Looking in just Core games books and only looking at the saving throw text.

PRF RPG 1st edition page 7, says that "...only an 18 to 20 saves against the cloud..." In the ST slot says "special"
Listed as an SOL.

HU 1st ed r page 96, has the same text as PF 1st ed., listed just as using three spells slots for the Spells to Day rules.

BTS 1st ed: is not listed in the spell list

RMB (or Rifts 1st ed core book): listed as an 11th level spell, has the same test as PF 1st ed.

PF RPG 2nd ed page 210: listed as an 11th level spell, excludes the word special, otherwise the saving throw text is the same as PF 1st ed.

HU revised 2nd ed, page 335: listed as an 11th level spell, with a sub-heading of SoL, and the same saving throw text as PF 1st ed.

NB core book: is not listed in the spell list.

RBoM page 138: one word is change and two others added and one revived: "Special. Only a Natural (unmodified) 18 to 20 saves against the cloud...". Listed as an 11th level spell.

RUE (2nd printing) page 221: same text as the RBoM.

ATB, TMNT, N&S, splices & SF: no magic.
RT 1st & 2nd ed: not in spell lists.
BTS: magic not yet published.
----------------------------------
Commentary
It could be that the text was just corrected to what was originally meant in the RBoM, rather a concept shift. Any conclusive statement about this would have to come from KS himself.

[Axelmania]

so basically that bit about getting to add PE came about in the 3rd printing of RUE?

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...
Nega-Psychics and Psi-Nullifiers for example seem like they could be massive tiebreakers since they probably COULD dispel anti-magic clouds since they don't fall under a "dispelled magically" countermeasure.
...snip

(after reviewing the NP in BTS2 cause Psycape is ether gone or packed away.)
They could prevent it from being cast. But once it is an active spell they can't effect it.

[Axelmania]

BTS mentions negas can't take down the cloud?

[Daeroos]

so basically that bit about getting to add PE came about in the 3rd printing of RUE?

I have the first printing, and it is in there. I am unsure if perhaps it was removed in future printings as Drewkitty mentions that a future printing lists it without that?

[Axelmania]

RUE (2nd printing) page 138: same text as the RBoM.

I'm seeing it on RUE 221, 138 is the BOM page

I have the first printing, and it is in there.
I am unsure if perhaps it was removed in future printings as Drewkitty mentions that a future printing lists it without that?

RUE221's "only bonuses" end-note is present in the first printing I'm looking at, yeah.

Drew said that the 2nd print of RUE has the same text of RBOM... not sure if that means they both have the note in his copies (in which case maybe later printings of RBOM included the note introduced in RUE?) or both lack the note (in which case as you say, this implies they removed it from RUE)

[drewkitty ~..~]

Looking in just Core games books and only looking at the saving throw text.

Drew said that the 2nd print of RUE has the same text of RBOM...

The note text was not in the Saving Throw text. Since I said limited my comments to the saving throw texts. That excluded anything outside those texts.

Since the ending text is only a 'Note', so it is outside what I said I was commenting on.

[Axelmania]

The note text was not in the Saving Throw text. Since I said limited my comments to the saving throw texts. That excluded anything outside those texts.

capitalizing as you just did helps me to understand you mean that line at the top, as opposed to text which pertains to the topic of savings throws which can exist outside it