A Balance Review of South America 1

[Byzantine_Basileus]

Greetings All!

I have been a fan of Rifts for more than 22 years, and have read every single book from top to bottom more times than I wish to remember. I have also been a lurker on these forums for an extensive period as well. There have been many threads on the topic of how a lot of the weapons and war machines in Rifts South America 1 and 2 are too powerful. Having looked at those two titles again recently, I thought it would be interesting to compare the equipment in those books with those of other Rifts titles. I am going to start with the first South American book, and I shall only be evaluating the equipment with those titles released previously, or released no later than 1 or 2 years afterwards. Here are the books I am including

South America 1: Released in 1994
Rifts Rule Book: Released in 1990
Rifts Sourcebook 1: Released in 1991
Rifts Triax 1: Released in 1994
Rifts Atlantis: Released in 1992
Rifts Underseas: Released in 1995
Rifts Japan: Released in 1995
Rifts Phaseworld: Released in 1994
Rifts Mercenaries: Released in 1994

If any of the weapons or war machines are unbalanced, I will also provide several suggestions on how to make the statistics more in line with other equipment at a similar technology level. So let us being!

South America 1

Colombia – RC-10 Laser Pistol
Colombia is described as a country with a level of technology comparable to Lazlo or Whykin, which I am interpreting to mean slightly below that of the Coalition States. The first piece of weaponry is the RC-10 Laser Pistol. It is described as being the best that can be produced with local technology. It has a weight of 0.9 kg, which is equal to the Wilk’s 320 Laser Pistol, and is half as much as the Coalition C-18 Laser Pistol. It does less damage than the C-18 (1D6 to 2D4 MD), has a greater range (300 to 244 m), and twice as many shots (20 to 10). It is also cheaper to purchase (9000 versus 12000 credits). Compared to the Wilks 320, range, payload, and damage are the same, but the 320 costs 11000 and gives a +2 to strike on aimed shots. I think reducing either the payload to 10 shots, or the range to 182 m, would make the RC-10 much more representative of the lower tech-level of Colombia.

Colombia – RC-15 Laser Rifle
The RC-15 Laser Rifle does 3D6+6 MD per blast compared to the Coalition C-12 Heavy Assault Laser Rifle, which does 4D6 MD, and the Wilk’s 447 Laser Rifle, which does 3D6 MD. This means the RC-15 does the same maximum damage as the C-12, is capable of a higher average damage with a single shot, and is much more powerful than the 447. It also has the same payload as the other two (20 shots), and is much cheaper (14500 credits) However, at 9.5 kg the RC-15 is much heavier and has a far shorter range (305 to 610 m), making it much less viable as a weapon. An infantryman with this weapon cannot carry much additional gear, and will be vulnerable against opponents who can out-range them. As such, I would call this weapon quite balanced.


Colombia – Dragon 1 Plasma Projector
The Dragon 1 Plasma Projector has a higher payload than the Coalition C-27 Plasma Cannon (12 to 10 shots), but is much heavier, does less damage, and has a far shorter range. This weapon is also quite balanced and represents the lower tech level of Colombia quite well.

Colombia – RP-C20 Rocket Pistol
Rocket bullets represent a unique technology for Colombia, and so the statistics are going to be different to weapons in other nations. For this weapon in particular, I would say the damage, payload, and cost are all balanced, but the range needs to be shorter. It has the same range as the RR-C40 Rocket Rifle, even though the RR-C40 has a far longer barrel. I would reduce the range to 244 m.

Colombia – RR-C40 Rocket Rifle
This weapon can produce of lot of damage (1D4x10 MD per burst), but this is more than offset by the heavy weight, short range (366 m), high price, and the fact that ammo can only be purchased within Colombia. It would call this well-balanced.

Colombia – RAR-C15 Rocket Auto-Cannon Rifle.
Like Beyonce, the damage this weapon can inflict is fierce. 3D6+5 MD for a single round, 1D4x10 MD for a short burst, and 2D4x10 MD for a long burst. At 22.60 kg it is much lighter than the Coalition C-40R Railgun (41.4 kg) and the Northern Gun NG-202 Railgun (89 kg). It also does not require a power pack. At the same time, in terms of range it is at a significant disadvantage. The weapon can only hit opponents at 610 m, whereas those equipped with railguns can shoot from over a kilometer away (1200m). Similarly, at 65000 credits the weapon is not that much cheaper than the NG-202, and ammunition is only available within Colombia, meaning the weapon is not suited for adventurers. I would conclude that this weapon is balanced when you take into account such limitations.

Colombia – RA-C15 Rocket Auto-Cannon
Similar to the RAR-C15 Rocket Auto-Cannon Rifle, this weapon is very powerful, but still has a short-range and ammunition is not wide-spread. I would likewise call this balanced.

[Captain_Nibbz]

Interesting take on things. I've never gotten my hands on a copy of either of the South America books, but I have heard a lot of people talking about how overpowered everything was over the years. It will be interesting to see you continue on with this balance review. I'll be staying tuned!

[Axelmania]

I always figured the objections to SA were more about self-healing borgs (anti-monsters) the powerful psychic cats and "free power armor for PPE" bio-mancers.

SA2 would be the "free monsters without tats" nazca and more powerful psychic mutants.

[Captain_Nibbz]

I always figured the objections to SA were more about self-healing borgs (anti-monsters) the powerful psychic cats and "free power armor for PPE" bio-mancers.

SA2 would be the "free monsters without tats" nazca and more powerful psychic mutants.

All of those things sound really cool in concept, but I can also see how someone writing it without thinking things totally through would cause some issues. I hope the original poster will cover those items in a future entry.

[Axelmania]

I don't think it endangers the balance of power in the world in any way if the GM can invent reasons that would keep those things localized.

IMO the worldwide impact of "Underseas" potentially arming millions of dolphins with permanent 150 MDC help armor that they can freely bestow upon seaside-visiting allies is actually much more disruptive to the power balance than SA1+SA2 combined. We at least know that Spellsongs can be cast in a given amount of time...

Can't remember how long it's supposed to take to make Bio-Armor (Chitin or Wood) but those require certain environmental types to be built, and are a lot more expensive. I think the amount of biomancers in the world is also far more limited, and they're far less mobile than the Whale Singers.

[Byzantine_Basileus]

Interesting take on things. I've never gotten my hands on a copy of either of the South America books, but I have heard a lot of people talking about how overpowered everything was over the years. It will be interesting to see you continue on with this balance review. I'll be staying tuned!

Thank you, I am doing the power armor and robots of Colombia shortly!

[Byzantine_Basileus]

I always figured the objections to SA were more about self-healing borgs (anti-monsters) the powerful psychic cats and "free power armor for PPE" bio-mancers.

SA2 would be the "free monsters without tats" nazca and more powerful psychic mutants.

There were always weaknesses with those however. Anti-Monsters were always limited in number in because they had to recruited from psychics, had a small chance of rejecting the bio-borg implants which would kill the character, they would develop an insanity which would directly affect gameplay, and took double damage from rune and millennium tree weapons. The powers of the psychic cats were fueled by ISP which would run out, making them unsuited for sustained encounters. Similarly, Biomancer spells like Woodland Entity was fueled by PPE, lasted only one round per level, and as a level 10 spell would be very rare and difficult to acquire.

[Byzantine_Basileus]

I don't think it endangers the balance of power in the world in any way if the GM can invent reasons that would keep those things localized.

IMO the worldwide impact of "Underseas" potentially arming millions of dolphins with permanent 150 MDC help armor that they can freely bestow upon seaside-visiting allies is actually much more disruptive to the power balance than SA1+SA2 combined. We at least know that Spellsongs can be cast in a given amount of time...

Can't remember how long it's supposed to take to make Bio-Armor (Chitin or Wood) but those require certain environmental types to be built, and are a lot more expensive. I think the amount of biomancers in the world is also far more limited, and they're far less mobile than the Whale Singers.

Localized is one thing, but the effectiveness of weapons and armor should still be limited by the overall tech level to keep things plausible within the rules of the universe.

[Byzantine_Basileus]

Now it is time for the next part of my review.

Colombia – D-20 Light Combat Exo-Skeleton

The D-20 is roughly equivalent to the NG-EX10 by Northern Gun. The D2-0 has 30 less MDC for the main-body, but has a PS of 24 compared to 20, and is 10 mph faster. The battery is only good for 12 hours, whilst the Gladius can run on a battery for 96 hours, and both have the same price. The D-20 is equipped with a RAR-C15 which allows a lot of damage, but its payload is highly limited. An infantryman equipped with a Gladius and an L-20 Pulse rifle with two short e-clips can produce more more damage over time, so I think this is well balanced.

Colombia – D-30 Conquistador Power Armor

The weaponry of the D-30 allows it to hit way above it’s weight class in terms of damage. The auto-loading bazooka does 1D6x10+20 with an AP round, but this is offset by the horribly short range and low payload of 12 shots. The shoulder mounted rocket gun does 1D4x10+6 MD per burst, and with a total of 200 bursts can do a maximum of 9200 MD over time. I thought the best power armor to compare it to is Northern Gun NG-X9 Sampson. The Sampson has 10 more MDC for the main body, and 25 less MD for the head. Both the D-30 and the Sampson carry four mini-missiles, and with the NG-202 railgun the Sampson can inflict a maximum of 6000 MD over time. The Sampson has the option carrying another ammo drum for the rail-gun, which ups the damage to 12000 MD. The Sampson is clearly the superior in terms of mobility. It runs 90 mph faster than the D30 and can jump further. Both types of power armor have the same strength, but the Sampson can do more damage in hand-to-hand combat with it’s vibro-blades. Being battery-run, the D30 costs around a third as much and has not got the range. It’s shoulder mounted rocket gun only has a range of 610 m and has the aforementioned issues of ammo supply. I am leaning towards calling this balanced.

Colombia – G-9A Jaguar Light Robot Vehicle

When comparing the Jaguar to the Coalition UAR-1 Enforcer, the Enforcer is slightly more heavily armored in the main-body area, whilst the legs and head of the Jaguar are better protected. Both have the same physical strength, but the Jaguar is faster and can leap further. The Enforcer is also 3 million credits more expensive. The railgun of the Enforcer allows it to do 15000 MDC over time maximum, whilst the 20 mm auto-cannon on the Jaguar has a total of 400 bursts, translating to 32000 MDC over time. The Enforcer has many more missiles than the Jaguar, including six medium range missiles, which allows long-range artillery bombardment. The Jaguar has superior hand-to-hand capability, and it’s two lasers are more powerful than those of the Enforcer. My instinct tells me 400 bursts for the 20 mm auto-cannon is just too much, and should be around 200 or so in order to justify the lower price. On the other hand, using the old missile statistics, 3 medium range missiles do a maximum of 360 MDC, so the Enforcer could potentially destroy 2 Jaguars before they even got into combat range. Similarly, with 10 short-range missile, with a volley of 5 doing 300 MDC maximum, the Enforcer could further cripple two more Jaguars at 5 miles, allowing them to be easily dispatched with a rail gun burst each. Still, the Jaguar can destroy the short and medium range missiles with its larger supply of mini-missiles, so I think reducing the total auto-cannon ammunition is still required.

Colombia – G-18B Aguirre Heavy Combat

Named after an exceptionally boring pre-Rifts German movie, the G-18B is, because of its size, best compared with the Northern Gun NG-V7 Hunter Mobile Gun. Now, the Hunter is way more expensive, as it costs 40 million credits compared to 30 million credits for the Aguirre. The Aguirre is somewhat stronger and can leap further, but the Hunter can run 10 mph faster and the MDC of it’s main-body is 40 points higher. The rocket cannon of the Aguirre can do a total of 24000 MDC maximum damage over time, but the Hunter can do 120000 MDC maximum with it’s rail-gun howitzer, which is completely hilarious. The Aguirre has the edge in two areas. Outside of 1828 m the Aguirre can launch 12 medium range missiles which, using the old missile statistics, can do 480 MDC maximum each volley of 4 missiles, meaning the Aguirre could potentially destroy 3 Hunters before they got into combat range. Similarly, in hand-to-hand combat, the Aguirre has a huge vibro-sword that can inflict a maximum of 60 MDC per strike. The two laser cannon on the Aguirre do a combined total of 36 MD maximum, while the belly cannon of the Hunter can only do 30 MD maximum. The Hunter offsets this with 18 mini-missiles, which can be used to destroy the medium range missiles. In the end, I think the massive damage potential of the howitzer makes up for the 10 million credit difference, so the Aguirre is balanced.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Colombia – RC-15 Laser Rifle
The RC-15 Laser Rifle does 3D6+6 MD per blast compared to the Coalition C-12 Heavy Assault Laser Rifle, which does 4D6 MD, and the Wilk’s 447 Laser Rifle, which does 3D6 MD. This means the RC-15 does the same maximum damage as the C-12, is capable of a higher average damage with a single shot, and is much more powerful than the 447. It also has the same payload as the other two (20 shots), and is much cheaper (14500 credits) However, at 9.5 kg the RC-15 is much heavier and has a far shorter range (305 to 610 m), making it much less viable as a weapon. An infantryman with this weapon cannot carry much additional gear, and will be vulnerable against opponents who can out-range them. As such, I would call this weapon quite balanced.

The 4D6 Damage roll for the C-12 is a 5-shot burst. Confirmed by Kevin. Its single shot damage is 2D6MD.

Also, i factor range in the 'how powerful is this weapon' matrix..

Yeah, your RC-15 might do more damage, but if i kill you before you can even enter range to fire, its a moot point.

Both the C-12 and Wilks' weapons have a 2000ft range, which is the winner here for me. I agree that i dont find the RC-15 all that overpowered. In fact, i dont really find much of anything in SA that overpowered. Yeah, some of the weapons do absurd damage, but they all have pretty huge drawbacks to go with them.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Localized is one thing, but the effectiveness of weapons and armor should still be limited by the overall tech level to keep things plausible within the rules of the universe.

If you're expecting that kind of detail and continuity from Palladium, you're in for a seriously rude awakening.

[Byzantine_Basileus]

Colombia – RC-15 Laser Rifle
The RC-15 Laser Rifle does 3D6+6 MD per blast compared to the Coalition C-12 Heavy Assault Laser Rifle, which does 4D6 MD, and the Wilk’s 447 Laser Rifle, which does 3D6 MD. This means the RC-15 does the same maximum damage as the C-12, is capable of a higher average damage with a single shot, and is much more powerful than the 447. It also has the same payload as the other two (20 shots), and is much cheaper (14500 credits) However, at 9.5 kg the RC-15 is much heavier and has a far shorter range (305 to 610 m), making it much less viable as a weapon. An infantryman with this weapon cannot carry much additional gear, and will be vulnerable against opponents who can out-range them. As such, I would call this weapon quite balanced.

The 4D6 Damage roll for the C-12 is a 5-shot burst. Confirmed by Kevin. Its single shot damage is 2D6MD.

Also, i factor range in the 'how powerful is this weapon' matrix..

Yeah, your RC-15 might do more damage, but if i kill you before you can even enter range to fire, its a moot point.

Both the C-12 and Wilks' weapons have a 2000ft range, which is the winner here for me. I agree that i dont find the RC-15 all that overpowered. In fact, i dont really find much of anything in SA that overpowered. Yeah, some of the weapons do absurd damage, but they all have pretty huge drawbacks to go with them.

I am aware of the blood that has been spilled over the discussion of how much damage the C-12 does, but until I actually see it written by KS either on the website or in one of the books, I am treating 4D6 as a single shot setting because of the "also able to shoot bursts" in the description setting.

Range is a big factor that a lot of people overlook when it comes to balance. A turret on a robot may only do 3D6 MD, for example, but a lot of the energy is spent getting that blast to 1200m, which is why the damage is lower than on a rifle.

[Byzantine_Basileus]

Localized is one thing, but the effectiveness of weapons and armor should still be limited by the overall tech level to keep things plausible within the rules of the universe.

If you're expecting that kind of detail and continuity from Palladium, you're in for a seriously rude awakening.

It's been getting much better of late. Triax 2 was powerful, but that is because Triax as it's basis in pre-Rifts tech, and they have been pouring money into defeating the Gargoyles. Even their advanced stuff, like forcefields, have limitations like preventing weapons from being fired. NG1 and NG2 were also well in line with the capabilities of Northern Gun in terms of technology.

[SereneTsunami]

Isn't the "Power Creep" from the offending books more about the differences in vision of what Rifts Earth could/should be? Mr. Seimbeida and Mr. Carella clearly had different visions of what Rifts is.

Kevin saw the Earth as a wasteland with vagrant D-Bees, wandering boy-scouts and revived Pre-Rifts cultures, and until much later, that's about it. Mr. Carella saw a world invaded and inhabited by a wide and fantastic variety of cultures, tech levels, and races. Whole cities and races are dumped into South America some with great power. Kevin didn't do that, so it was all low power stuff from him.

It seems to me that literary vision and not numbers is responsible for the difference in power level. It also explains Kevin's repudiation of some of Mr. Carella's work.

[Captain_Nibbz]

Isn't the "Power Creep" from the offending books more about the differences in vision of what Rifts Earth could/should be? Mr. Seimbeida and Mr. Carella clearly had different visions of what Rifts is.

Kevin saw the Earth as a wasteland with vagrant D-Bees, wandering boy-scouts and revived Pre-Rifts cultures, and until much later, that's about it. Mr. Carella saw a world invaded and inhabited by a wide and fantastic variety of cultures, tech levels, and races. Whole cities and races are dumped into South America some with great power. Kevin didn't do that, so it was all low power stuff from him.

It seems to me that literary vision and not numbers is responsible for the difference in power level. It also explains Kevin's repudiation of some of Mr. Carella's work.

Thats actually really interesting. Do we have anything to back this up? I don't disagree after reading through a lot of things, but it would be interesting to see what the real story behind things is.

Either way, I hope the original poster keeps up the review. I'm really enjoying seeing this break down and comparison between the books of the time.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Isn't the "Power Creep" from the offending books more about the differences in vision of what Rifts Earth could/should be? Mr. Seimbeida and Mr. Carella clearly had different visions of what Rifts is.

Kevin saw the Earth as a wasteland with vagrant D-Bees, wandering boy-scouts and revived Pre-Rifts cultures, and until much later, that's about it. Mr. Carella saw a world invaded and inhabited by a wide and fantastic variety of cultures, tech levels, and races. Whole cities and races are dumped into South America some with great power. Kevin didn't do that, so it was all low power stuff from him.

It seems to me that literary vision and not numbers is responsible for the difference in power level. It also explains Kevin's repudiation of some of Mr. Carella's work.

I have heard it before and it makes a lot of sense, but as a counterpoint, I point to Atlantis, which was definatly penned by Kevin himself, that had a whole *contiennt* with a dizzying variety of races involved, and a power level stated to be so great that it could singlehandedly conquer the rest of the planet any time it felt like and the only reason it didn't is because it was *Such* a huge power that other similar dizzying powers might interfear to stop it. And that was as old as WB 2.

[dreicunan]

Isn't the "Power Creep" from the offending books more about the differences in vision of what Rifts Earth could/should be? Mr. Seimbeida and Mr. Carella clearly had different visions of what Rifts is.

Kevin saw the Earth as a wasteland with vagrant D-Bees, wandering boy-scouts and revived Pre-Rifts cultures, and until much later, that's about it. Mr. Carella saw a world invaded and inhabited by a wide and fantastic variety of cultures, tech levels, and races. Whole cities and races are dumped into South America some with great power. Kevin didn't do that, so it was all low power stuff from him.

It seems to me that literary vision and not numbers is responsible for the difference in power level. It also explains Kevin's repudiation of some of Mr. Carella's work.

I have heard it before and it makes a lot of sense, but as a counterpoint, I point to Atlantis, which was definatly penned by Kevin himself, that had a whole *contiennt* with a dizzying variety of races involved, and a power level stated to be so great that it could singlehandedly conquer the rest of the planet any time it felt like and the only reason it didn't is because it was *Such* a huge power that other similar dizzying powers might interfear to stop it. And that was as old as WB 2.

Exactly. I was about to make the same point. The vision difference explanation crumbles pretty hard in light of that.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Isn't the "Power Creep" from the offending books more about the differences in vision of what Rifts Earth could/should be? Mr. Seimbeida and Mr. Carella clearly had different visions of what Rifts is.

Kevin saw the Earth as a wasteland with vagrant D-Bees, wandering boy-scouts and revived Pre-Rifts cultures, and until much later, that's about it. Mr. Carella saw a world invaded and inhabited by a wide and fantastic variety of cultures, tech levels, and races. Whole cities and races are dumped into South America some with great power. Kevin didn't do that, so it was all low power stuff from him.

It seems to me that literary vision and not numbers is responsible for the difference in power level. It also explains Kevin's repudiation of some of Mr. Carella's work.

I have heard it before and it makes a lot of sense, but as a counterpoint, I point to Atlantis, which was definatly penned by Kevin himself, that had a whole *contiennt* with a dizzying variety of races involved, and a power level stated to be so great that it could singlehandedly conquer the rest of the planet any time it felt like and the only reason it didn't is because it was *Such* a huge power that other similar dizzying powers might interfear to stop it. And that was as old as WB 2.

Exactly. I was about to make the same point. The vision difference explanation crumbles pretty hard in light of that.

Not necessarily. They could still have had a seperation of Visions for the setting. It just likely wasn't transplanted cities and high powered Dbee's persay.

[Axelmania]

I'm not sure the stuff in Atlantis was that powerful in terms of damage capacity, I found the Dragon Dreadnought kinda underwhelming. As impressive as the Absurr Life Node and Invulnerability tattoos were, we had chars with 500+ MDC even in the main book: Cyborgs and Glitter Boys.

[RockJock]

Keep up the reviews. They make for a fun review.

[SereneTsunami]

Isn't the "Power Creep" from the offending books more about the differences in vision of what Rifts Earth could/should be? Mr. Seimbeida and Mr. Carella clearly had different visions of what Rifts is.

Kevin saw the Earth as a wasteland with vagrant D-Bees, wandering boy-scouts and revived Pre-Rifts cultures, and until much later, that's about it. Mr. Carella saw a world invaded and inhabited by a wide and fantastic variety of cultures, tech levels, and races. Whole cities and races are dumped into South America some with great power. Kevin didn't do that, so it was all low power stuff from him.

It seems to me that literary vision and not numbers is responsible for the difference in power level. It also explains Kevin's repudiation of some of Mr. Carella's work.

I have heard it before and it makes a lot of sense, but as a counterpoint, I point to Atlantis, which was definatly penned by Kevin himself, that had a whole *contiennt* with a dizzying variety of races involved, and a power level stated to be so great that it could singlehandedly conquer the rest of the planet any time it felt like and the only reason it didn't is because it was *Such* a huge power that other similar dizzying powers might interfear to stop it. And that was as old as WB 2.

I would put Atlantis in the same category as the CS, ultra evil ultra powerful, foe to build a campaign around, but until Japan Kevin does not to the big transplants and "whole race enclaves". Carella's work is all about transplants, and entire races as a force. Even if we grant Kevin with Atlantis as you see it, it is only the exception that proves the rule. North America is still a much different style of world then South America.

[SereneTsunami]

Isn't the "Power Creep" from the offending books more about the differences in vision of what Rifts Earth could/should be? Mr. Seimbeida and Mr. Carella clearly had different visions of what Rifts is.

Kevin saw the Earth as a wasteland with vagrant D-Bees, wandering boy-scouts and revived Pre-Rifts cultures, and until much later, that's about it. Mr. Carella saw a world invaded and inhabited by a wide and fantastic variety of cultures, tech levels, and races. Whole cities and races are dumped into South America some with great power. Kevin didn't do that, so it was all low power stuff from him.

It seems to me that literary vision and not numbers is responsible for the difference in power level. It also explains Kevin's repudiation of some of Mr. Carella's work.

I have heard it before and it makes a lot of sense, but as a counterpoint, I point to Atlantis, which was definatly penned by Kevin himself, that had a whole *contiennt* with a dizzying variety of races involved, and a power level stated to be so great that it could singlehandedly conquer the rest of the planet any time it felt like and the only reason it didn't is because it was *Such* a huge power that other similar dizzying powers might interfear to stop it. And that was as old as WB 2.

Exactly. I was about to make the same point. The vision difference explanation crumbles pretty hard in light of that.

North America and South America is all the evidence you need to declare nearly opposite visions. Atlantis is not a reason to throw out all the other books that show us what the two men thought. It is an ultra powerful transplant, the kind that Kevin has only done a few times,(Japan Ixion) and only after Carella showed what a truly expansive and awesomely chaotic Rifts Earth could be if you opened up your mind to the possibilities.

[Captain_Nibbz]

Isn't the "Power Creep" from the offending books more about the differences in vision of what Rifts Earth could/should be? Mr. Seimbeida and Mr. Carella clearly had different visions of what Rifts is.

Kevin saw the Earth as a wasteland with vagrant D-Bees, wandering boy-scouts and revived Pre-Rifts cultures, and until much later, that's about it. Mr. Carella saw a world invaded and inhabited by a wide and fantastic variety of cultures, tech levels, and races. Whole cities and races are dumped into South America some with great power. Kevin didn't do that, so it was all low power stuff from him.

It seems to me that literary vision and not numbers is responsible for the difference in power level. It also explains Kevin's repudiation of some of Mr. Carella's work.

I have heard it before and it makes a lot of sense, but as a counterpoint, I point to Atlantis, which was definatly penned by Kevin himself, that had a whole *contiennt* with a dizzying variety of races involved, and a power level stated to be so great that it could singlehandedly conquer the rest of the planet any time it felt like and the only reason it didn't is because it was *Such* a huge power that other similar dizzying powers might interfear to stop it. And that was as old as WB 2.

I would put Atlantis in the same category as the CS, ultra evil ultra powerful, foe to build a campaign around, but until Japan Kevin does not to the big transplants and "whole race enclaves". Carella's work is all about transplants, and entire races as a force. Even if we grant Kevin with Atlantis as you see it, it is only the exception that proves the rule. North America is still a much different style of world then South America.

We should consider moving this discussion to a new thread to keep from derailing this one from its original purpose. I'll throw one up really quick, because I have some additional inquiries along this topic.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I will point out, if you look at Japan's writing credits, it was a Collab between Kevin, Patrick, and Carella, which again points that their visions are not entirely incompatible.

[Killer Cyborg]

Colombia – RC-15 Laser Rifle
The RC-15 Laser Rifle does 3D6+6 MD per blast compared to the Coalition C-12 Heavy Assault Laser Rifle, which does 4D6 MD, and the Wilk’s 447 Laser Rifle, which does 3D6 MD. This means the RC-15 does the same maximum damage as the C-12, is capable of a higher average damage with a single shot, and is much more powerful than the 447. It also has the same payload as the other two (20 shots), and is much cheaper (14500 credits) However, at 9.5 kg the RC-15 is much heavier and has a far shorter range (305 to 610 m), making it much less viable as a weapon. An infantryman with this weapon cannot carry much additional gear, and will be vulnerable against opponents who can out-range them. As such, I would call this weapon quite balanced.

The 4D6 Damage roll for the C-12 is a 5-shot burst. Confirmed by Kevin. Its single shot damage is 2D6MD.

Also, i factor range in the 'how powerful is this weapon' matrix..

Yeah, your RC-15 might do more damage, but if i kill you before you can even enter range to fire, its a moot point.

Both the C-12 and Wilks' weapons have a 2000ft range, which is the winner here for me. I agree that i dont find the RC-15 all that overpowered. In fact, i dont really find much of anything in SA that overpowered. Yeah, some of the weapons do absurd damage, but they all have pretty huge drawbacks to go with them.

I am aware of the blood that has been spilled over the discussion of how much damage the C-12 does, but until I actually see it written by KS either on the website or in one of the books, I am treating 4D6 as a single shot setting because of the "also able to shoot bursts" in the description setting.

As long as you're aware of the blood that's been spilled, we don't need to get into the issue much here.
For one thing, CJ himself may have had the same understanding of the C-12's damage that you have, so he may have been trying to balance against that understanding.

As for the phrasing, I'll point out that the CP-40 uses the exact same phrasing, but clearly doesn't function the way people want the C-12 to function.

C-12:
The rifle has three settings, one SDC and two MDC. The rifle can also be set to fire a single shot or a burst of five.
Mega-Damage: Setting One: 4d6 MD or Setting Two 2d6 MD

CP-40:
The CP-40 has four settings, two SDC and two MD. The rifle can also be set to fire a single shot or a pulse of three nearly simultaneous blasts...
Mega-Damage: 2d6 per single laser blast or 6d6 MD per rapid-fire pulse

In a vacuum, the C-12 appeared to function as you say, for the reason you say. It seemed to have a 4d6 MD single shot, a 2d6 MD single shot, and ALSO a 5-shot burst setting.
But in that same vacuum, if the CP-40 did not specify the number of shots in its Mega-Damage section, the weapon would appear to have a single shot setting of 2d6 MD, and another single shot setting for 6d6 MD, and ALSO a pulse setting that would work with either of those damages, for 6d6 MD or 18d6 MD respectively.
The CP-40 makes it pretty clear that Palladium doesn't understand the phrase "the rifle can also be set to..." the way the rest of the English-speaking world understands it.

There's other stuff as well, of course:
-The C-10 "is an old, earlier version of the C-12," and it does 2d6 MD per shot.
-The CV-212 (which is just "C-12" with a V and a 2 added in) again uses the phrasing "The rifle can also be set to fire in a single shot mode or a burst of five."
In the weapon's SB1 initial appearance, the damage was listed the same as the C-12: "2d6 MD or 4d6 MD"
In RUE (2nd printing), the phrasing is modified: "The rifle can also be set to fire in a single shot or a burst of three," and the damage is modified to reflect this change:
"Mega-Damage: Setting One 2d6 MD single shot, Setting Two (Burst) 6d6 MD"
It could be argued that the writers changed the CV-212 to have a 3-shot pulse for 6d6 MD instead of a 4d6 single-shot setting, and a 5-shot burst setting that could do 8d6 MD, but I don't think that makes as much sense as simply assuming that they changed from a burst of 5 to a pulse of 3, both of which use the same base damage of 2d6 MD per shot.
-Other than the JA-11, a Golden Age weapon, there are NO 4d6 MD single-shot lasers in Rifts North America, at least not in the early books. IF the CS had the technology to make a 4d6 MD single-shot laser, especially one that is capable of firing bursts (unlike the JA-11, which is single-shot only), why aren't there more of them?
2d6 MD laser rifles pop up all over the place in CS weaponry, and 3d6 MD lasers show up now and then, but even with all their new stuff in CWC and later books, they never "again" have a laser rifle that does 4d6 MD per single shot, and even more damage on a burst.

This all only makes sense if the C-12 never was such a weapon in the first place, if the 4d6 MD setting was the 5-shot burst setting.
The only thing that does NOT make sense when you look at the 4d6 setting as the 5-shot burst setting is Palladium's use of the word "Also," and that doesn't make sense under any circumstances because of the way they use it with the CP-40 and the CV-212.

In any case, your balance review overall is quite enjoyable, and we don't need to spend any more time arguing about the C-12 here now that I've made those points.

[Killer Cyborg]

When considering things like Weight and Range as balancing factors, I do feel that there are two important questions that should be asked:
1. How often will this be a factor in the game world?
-The average person (PS 10) can carry 100 lbs. While a 21 lb rifle in the real world would be too heavy for common use (an AK-47 only weighs around 10 lbs, and M-16s weigh significantly less), it's not a big deal in the game world.
-A character with PS of 17 can carry 340 lbs, and Modified Men, Borgs, Bots, and the Supernatural are even more extreme.
In the real world, IIRC, gun fights do NOT usually occur beyond 900', and I don't see much reason to believe that it would be much more common in the game world either.

2. How often will this be a factor for characters in actual game play?
-Outside of the by-the-rules for carrying weight, there's a question of how common it is for GM's to actually worry about it. Most GMs I know don't bother keeping track of (or checking up on) how much gear characters carry, and whether the character in question could actually carry it. Virtually nobody I know of likes or uses encumberance rules in any system, so in practical terms weight usually isn't a penalty, whether or not it should be.
-Similarly, most GM's I've dealt with tend to have combat occur at ranges MUCH closer than 1000', especially in Rifts where both GMs and players like to use mega-damage melee weapons.
Sometimes weapon weight or range comes up in game play... but nowhere near as commonly as damage does! Getting extra damage by sacrificing range or by carrying extra weight is usually a no-brainer in favor of damage.

[Axelmania]

until Japan Kevin does not to the big transplants and "whole race enclaves".
Carella's work is all about transplants, and entire races as a force.
Even if we grant Kevin with Atlantis as you see it, it is only the exception that proves the rule.
North America is still a much different style of world then South America.

Exceptions don't prove rules, in fact you assume a rule exists to label them an exception at all.

Wormwood has Demon Goblins as a race enclave, WB! had vamps, England had Fomorians, Africa had Tautons, WB5 had gargoyles, Mindwerks had Brodkil

[SereneTsunami]

until Japan Kevin does not to the big transplants and "whole race enclaves".
Carella's work is all about transplants, and entire races as a force.
Even if we grant Kevin with Atlantis as you see it, it is only the exception that proves the rule.
North America is still a much different style of world then South America.

Exceptions don't prove rules, in fact you assume a rule exists to label them an exception at all.

Wormwood has Demon Goblins as a race enclave, WB! had vamps, England had Fomorians, Africa had Tautons, WB5 had gargoyles, Mindwerks had Brodkil

You are correct.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

It's been a long time since I've GM'ed or played, but I from what I can remember the real problem wasn't SA1, it was SA2.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong. I wasn't much interested in either, since I was more about the tech than the magic and psi. Mercenaries, Triax/NGR, CWC, these were the books I was most interested in.

[Sureshot]

I am the resident weirdo where if anything I actually find Carella material balanced and makes more sense than the standard Rifts material. Their is no reason at all that a rifle should outclass a gun on a robot or any vehicle not unless the rpg provides an in game reason. I see nothing beyond Kevin wanting to ensure player survival. Which I would actually respect if it was not at the expense of making vehicle and robot weapons terrible in damage values and ranges. Carella actually made both make sense and suddenly players cried foul. When Carella armor, range and damage values should have been the standard from the start.

[torjones]

Greetings All!

Salutations!
I am so disappointed that I only just now saw this thread, so to hopefully get it back on your original premise, I did something similar a few years back, except I went through every book, and collected the whole thing into a little spreadsheet to process the data. I didn't include direct clones, but if the stats were the same except for x, then it was included.
After all the comparisons, laser pistols with laser pistols, laser rifles with laser rifles, etc., you tend to see a few major trends, and while a lot of weapons stray outside the normal range, they only do so for one attribute and pay for it somewhere else. Long ago KS once said "Remember that Balance does not mean equal."

South America 1
Colombia – RC-10 Laser Pistol
I think reducing either the payload to 10 shots, or the range to 182 m, would make the RC-10 much more representative of the lower tech-level of Colombia.

I disagree, the RC-10 is either equal or inferior in nearly every category. Even in setting, it's nothing special, it's just ubiquitous. No changes need to be made here, not even if a whole bunch of them wound up in N.A. you wouldn't have to do anything with them. Some players will go for it, but I don't think most players would give up their wilks for it. That to me is the sign of something that needs to be nerfed, lots of players gravitating to the thing. Even in setting, I would go for the Inti-10 from SA2 for a laser pistol. The king of the Laser Pistol world though, remains to this day, the Wilks 237, though the NG-45LP is a serious contender due to greatly extended range while only losing 1d6 damage. Then again, these are pistols, and pistols aren't meant as long range weapons.

Colombia – RC-15 Laser Rifle
As such, I would call this weapon quite balanced.

I think you're making a mistake in how you're comparing weapons damage. It is more useful, IMO, to look at the min., max., and average damages, with average damage being most important over the long run. 4d6 and 3d6+6 do yield the same maximum damage, but very different minimum damages and average damages. Which would you rather have in combat, a weapon that did a minimum of 4 points of damage or one which dealt 9? In this case, 14 and 16.5 may not be that far apart, but still tells an important tale.
That aside, I agree that the weapon is comparable or inferior to most other weapons in setting and in N.A. While heavy, this often does not figure into combat. I don't see N.A. characters giving up their C-12's or C-14's for an RC-15 in spite of its higher damage. In setting, I still think I'd go for the Inti-20, swapping for a Tri-Beam rifle the first chance I got.

Colombia – RP-C20 Rocket Pistol
Rocket bullets represent a unique technology for Colombia, and so the statistics are going to be different to weapons in other nations. For this weapon in particular, I would say the damage, payload, and cost are all balanced, but the range needs to be shorter. It has the same range as the RR-C40 Rocket Rifle, even though the RR-C40 has a far longer barrel. I would reduce the range to 244 m.

First, I want to say that I never really considered the cartridge powered weapons in my initial analysis. In a world that has reactor powered energy weapons, bullets, even exploding bullets, don't really make much sense tactically or strategically. (either your weapon is directly powered from a reactor or you're recharging your e-clips from that reactor) Even explosives do not make much sense since the cost is so high, and the damage inflicted for that cost is so low, it just really doesn't make much sense for the majority of encounters. Tactically, it makes sense to keep one weapon on hand that will damage that rare creature that is immune to energy weapons, which this weapon would cover quite nicely, but that just makes it a niche weapon, just like RPGs and missiles.
It's a rocket, what does barrel length have to do with how far a rocket flies? Nothing. Reducing its range because it has a shorter barrel is mindboggeling. It could have no barrel or a meter long barrel and the rocket would still fly the same distance.
Fairly decent weapons for dealing with vampires, but that's about it. I've never seen a player character use one, but I'm sure it's happened. What that tells me though, is that it's very under powered for the setting. It would probably get more use in an anti-vampire game, but outside of that, it would need a big damage boost to overcome the advantages energy weapons have. Leave it alone since it's essentially irrelevant as a weapon outside of a few edge case applications.

Colombia – RR-C40 Rocket Rifle
Colombia – RAR-C15 Rocket Auto-Cannon Rifle.
Colombia – RA-C15 Rocket Auto-Cannon

Pretty much all my points for the pistol version still apply here to all three larger weapons, they are largely irrelevant as weapons outside of a few edge case applications.

I tried doing the same thing with RPA, but they are far too variable to apply the same kind of analysis to. However, if we stick to a Main Body MDC level comparison, most of the stuff from SA1 is equal or inferior to the stuff found in N.A. Heavy CS EBA is nearly equal to the SA1 entry level ground PA, and the robots are on roughly even footing, though, N.A. still has an edge in weapons and armor, it's not a huge one.

[Josh Hilden]

Power Creep and personal visions aside, Kevin is the Editor in Chief and Publisher. If things didn't meet his direction and desire he should have requested changes or made them himself.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Greetings All!

Salutations!
I am so disappointed that I only just now saw this thread, so to hopefully get it back on your original premise, I did something similar a few years back, except I went through every book, and collected the whole thing into a little spreadsheet to process the data. I didn't include direct clones, but if the stats were the same except for x, then it was included.
After all the comparisons, laser pistols with laser pistols, laser rifles with laser rifles, etc., you tend to see a few major trends, and while a lot of weapons stray outside the normal range, they only do so for one attribute and pay for it somewhere else. Long ago KS once said "Remember that Balance does not mean equal."

South America 1
Colombia – RC-10 Laser Pistol
I think reducing either the payload to 10 shots, or the range to 182 m, would make the RC-10 much more representative of the lower tech-level of Colombia.

I disagree, the RC-10 is either equal or inferior in nearly every category. Even in setting, it's nothing special, it's just ubiquitous. No changes need to be made here, not even if a whole bunch of them wound up in N.A. you wouldn't have to do anything with them. Some players will go for it, but I don't think most players would give up their wilks for it. That to me is the sign of something that needs to be nerfed, lots of players gravitating to the thing. Even in setting, I would go for the Inti-10 from SA2 for a laser pistol. The king of the Laser Pistol world though, remains to this day, the Wilks 237, though the NG-45LP is a serious contender due to greatly extended range while only losing 1d6 damage. Then again, these are pistols, and pistols aren't meant as long range weapons.

Colombia – RC-15 Laser Rifle
As such, I would call this weapon quite balanced.

I think you're making a mistake in how you're comparing weapons damage. It is more useful, IMO, to look at the min., max., and average damages, with average damage being most important over the long run. 4d6 and 3d6+6 do yield the same maximum damage, but very different minimum damages and average damages. Which would you rather have in combat, a weapon that did a minimum of 4 points of damage or one which dealt 9? In this case, 14 and 16.5 may not be that far apart, but still tells an important tale.
That aside, I agree that the weapon is comparable or inferior to most other weapons in setting and in N.A. While heavy, this often does not figure into combat. I don't see N.A. characters giving up their C-12's or C-14's for an RC-15 in spite of its higher damage. In setting, I still think I'd go for the Inti-20, swapping for a Tri-Beam rifle the first chance I got.

Colombia – RP-C20 Rocket Pistol
Rocket bullets represent a unique technology for Colombia, and so the statistics are going to be different to weapons in other nations. For this weapon in particular, I would say the damage, payload, and cost are all balanced, but the range needs to be shorter. It has the same range as the RR-C40 Rocket Rifle, even though the RR-C40 has a far longer barrel. I would reduce the range to 244 m.

First, I want to say that I never really considered the cartridge powered weapons in my initial analysis. In a world that has reactor powered energy weapons, bullets, even exploding bullets, don't really make much sense tactically or strategically. (either your weapon is directly powered from a reactor or you're recharging your e-clips from that reactor) Even explosives do not make much sense since the cost is so high, and the damage inflicted for that cost is so low, it just really doesn't make much sense for the majority of encounters. Tactically, it makes sense to keep one weapon on hand that will damage that rare creature that is immune to energy weapons, which this weapon would cover quite nicely, but that just makes it a niche weapon, just like RPGs and missiles.
It's a rocket, what does barrel length have to do with how far a rocket flies? Nothing. Reducing its range because it has a shorter barrel is mindboggeling. It could have no barrel or a meter long barrel and the rocket would still fly the same distance.
Fairly decent weapons for dealing with vampires, but that's about it. I've never seen a player character use one, but I'm sure it's happened. What that tells me though, is that it's very under powered for the setting. It would probably get more use in an anti-vampire game, but outside of that, it would need a big damage boost to overcome the advantages energy weapons have. Leave it alone since it's essentially irrelevant as a weapon outside of a few edge case applications.

Colombia – RR-C40 Rocket Rifle
Colombia – RAR-C15 Rocket Auto-Cannon Rifle.
Colombia – RA-C15 Rocket Auto-Cannon

Pretty much all my points for the pistol version still apply here to all three larger weapons, they are largely irrelevant as weapons outside of a few edge case applications.

I tried doing the same thing with RPA, but they are far too variable to apply the same kind of analysis to. However, if we stick to a Main Body MDC level comparison, most of the stuff from SA1 is equal or inferior to the stuff found in N.A. Heavy CS EBA is nearly equal to the SA1 entry level ground PA, and the robots are on roughly even footing, though, N.A. still has an edge in weapons and armor, it's not a huge one.

Hes comparing to the other books available at the time, not books that came years later, as a test of the “CJ started the power creep” thesis. All the weapons you brought up came WAY later.

[torjones]

Hes comparing to the other books available at the time, not books that came years later, as a test of the “CJ started the power creep” thesis. All the weapons you brought up came WAY later.

I believe that my point about the items I was referring to still stands. While I believe that the wilks 237 was introduced in '97 in wb14 New West, the NG-45LP was introduced, iirc, in the WB10: Juicer Uprising, and as such, don't really qualify as being the same time period, and it might argue against me in that neither was part of the initial list, and WB10 was written by CJ Carella, and it might also count against me in that originally, the NG-45LP was a particle beam pistol, not a laser pistol, sticking to just laser pistols that have always been laser pistols, I'd go with the NG-Super, and have done so many times in the past and that's a RMB weapon. My point was that there were weapons even then that were objectively better than anything in SA1.
Moving to laser rifles, both examples I gave, the c-12 and the c-14 are RMB weapons. I acknowledge that the INTI-20 and tri-beam are both SA2, not SA1, however since I've already stated that I wouldn't be giving up either a c-12 or a c-14, and most players that I've played with seem to concur, again, I think the point stands, that there are existing weapons that are superior to the gear from SA1.
Considering that I didn't draw any comparisons between the SA1 rocket round weapons and anything from that specific list, I called them niche weapons, and I stand by that categorization. They fill the same niche that rail guns do, and railguns are superior weapons in nearly all regards.
That it takes until WB11: Coalition War Campaign to chose a LP other than the NG-Super, and quite a few other players to choose something other than a Wilks 320, it suggests that KS is the one who does the power creep, not CJ. It seems to me that everything that drove the power levels higher, were written by KS, not CJ. For example, the AT-30 from Rifts Japan is a lot better than anything that came before it. 2d6+2 (Min/avg/max dmg: 4/9/14) 1000' range, 30 shot payload AND a bonus to strike on aimed shots, though, not as good as a wilk's. CWC doesn't improve upon that, it's not until New West that we see the 237 and the gunbunnies all gravitate to the new line of wilk's weapons. The 227, 237, & 247 seem to be the most popular to this day, and New West was Kornmann and KS.
So, yeah, I believe that my point remains valid, even if some of my examples may not have been.