Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

[ShadowLogan]

The recent Glitterboy Boomgun payload topic after it was locked ended up having me thinking about something. On Rifts Earth-North America there are 4 "families" of designs that I can think of that use the canister flechette round for their railgun:
-G10 Glitterboy w/Boomgun (and its relatives)
-Shemmarrians (SB1o, Shem Nation), they actually have three as of Shem Nation (6000 and 4000 model, pg56, the 6070 model pg44). Complete with ammunition options and weight for said options (12/220/820).
-Titan Robotics (MerCops pg84, w/220 capacity, this is presented as a Shem knockoff in public
-Naruni (Mercenaries) offers a Hovertank (pg134) with secondary Railgun that fires flechette canisters per the description.

Question, with the possible exception of the Naruni (who might go with a custom ammo to tie customer to them, as seen with the Plasma Cartridges) are the 5 remaining canister shell Railguns using interchangeable ammunition or not? Or to simplify it further...
Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian and the Titan 'bot exchange Railgun ammunition? The Glitterboy's ammunition shell size is detailed, but not the Shemmarian/Titan (which isn't unusual for Rifts to omit caliber of the weapon).

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

I'd say no.

[Killer Cyborg]

I see no reason why they'd be compatible.

[Axelmania]

It would be interesting to have rules on what would happen if you jammed some homemade ball bearings and the like into rail guns. Even if they wouldn't do as much damage, I'd like to think you could still fire them to SOME effect.

[taalismn]

I'd say no....compatible ammunition between a terrestrial warmachine and alien hardware would be too much of a coincidence for smart observers. ARCHIE-3 and Hagan want to convince everybody that the Shemarrians are genuine aliens, and powerful enough that they don't have to stomp to adopting a locally-made ammunition for their own guns out of convenience or necessity.

Mind you, though, that if this were the non-canon Shemarrian Civil War setting, the rebel EShemar would be blatantly using Glitterboy boomguns and whatever else they could scavenge/acquire until they could get their own logistics and production facilities established, but their existing SHE-guns would still be only chambering the Shemarrian-specific ammo.

[guardiandashi]

I'd say no....compatible ammunition between a terrestrial warmachine and alien hardware would be too much of a coincidence for smart observers. ARCHIE-3 and Hagan want to convince everybody that the Shemarrians are genuine aliens, and powerful enough that they don't have to stomp to adopting a locally-made ammunition for their own guns out of convenience or necessity.

Mind you, though, that if this were the non-canon Shemarrian Civil War setting, the rebel EShemar would be blatantly using Glitterboy boomguns and whatever else they could scavenge/acquire until they could get their own logistics and production facilities established, but their existing SHE-guns would still be only chambering the Shemarrian-specific ammo.

I'm 99% certain that the answer is no, with that said there is the possibility that Archie wasn't thinking about that and slipped up

[taalismn]

[
I'm 99% certain that the answer is no, with that said there is the possibility that Archie wasn't thinking about that and slipped up

True...there is the little matter of the suspiciously Shemarrian-like rail gun arm on the Titan Assault robot that may bite them in the arse....but they can try to explain that by claiming(through their Titan Robotics proxies) that it was an attempt to reverse-engineer the Shemarrians' weapons(cue horribly-worked out PR campaign to explain WHY the Shemarrians haven't enforced Tribal copyrights by blowing away or confiscating every Titan Assault 'bot, or every Titan 'bot on just plain principle until TR cried uncle).

[The Beast]

I voted no based on two reasons.

1: Neither weapon mentions it can share ammo with the other. I'm fairly sure if they were able to share there would be a notation saying such.

2: Going off the drawings (I realize that's not exactly canon though) both weapons look to be of different sizes.

[ShadowLogan]

I am of the opinion that they can share ammo (though really at this point it is GM's call).

Why do I think they can share ammo? Several reasons actually.

I don't think we can use damage assignments (arbitrary) or effective range (Shem's 4000/6000/6070 all fire the same round, but at different range). We can even rule out size of the weapon being a factor (the the 3 Shem guns are of different sizes).

It should also be noted as someone said, there is nothing to indicate they CAN, but at the same time there is nothing to indicate they CAN NOT. There is however some circumstantial statements that support the idea they CAN.

The Shem 6000 Railgun is specifically said to operate similar to the Glitterboy's Boomgun, but trades damage for accuracy* and also muffles the sonic boom and recoil. Given this is supposed to operate similar to the Boomgun I could see that including the shell size as being the same, since they essentially work the same. Both fire shells that contain "hundreds" of flechettes (while the GB and Naruni state the number of flechettes, the Shem doesn't, but 200 could be considered "hundreds").

The Shem 6000 Railgun likely is potentially a pre-Rifts design in disguise or some other weapon retooled to look Shemarrian (Assault Rifle pg57, She-PB20 pg58, She-PLR25 pg59, She-IP30 pg59-60). So Archie does appear to recycle designs.

As of Shemmarian Nation, their Shemarrian .30-6 Hunting Rifle (pg57-8) is an example the Shemarrians using an Earth native sized round "It also has the added bonus of making the hunting parties very easy to resupply in the field, as the .30-06 ammunition is plentiful anywhere firearms are sold." (pg57). Plus at least some of their weapons do use standard E-Clips. And they use stock mini-missiles (nothing indicated they are unique) on their mounts. So the idea that the Shems would create non-standard ammunition is questionable when we have examples of them utilizing standard Earth stockpiles in multiple cases, though the Shem Assault Rifle (8mm) and She-LPP80 (internal magazine) offer exceptions.

Note on Archie3
In Universe wise there are several avenues Archie can take with the Titan product using Shem technology to cover his tracks:
1. Have planted information that make the Shem Railgun a "marketing ploy" of Titan Robotics. With the information pointing to...
1a. Pre-Rifts design
1b. Boomgun knockoff attempt (or an attempt to "improve" the BG)
1c. Naruni knockoff, but to avoid the stigma of Naruni (or to avoid getting their attention) they went with someone else who uses the technology
2. Archie could also have it revealed that the Shemarian Railgun is actually based on a recovered Glitterboy's Boomgun, one they have "improved" upon. The Shems are typically smaller than a Glitterboy, so reducing the size would be something I think they would look at to make it more usable (which is essentially the justification of the 4000 railgun actually).

*While the Shem x0x0 series of Railguns state they trade damage for accuracy, in actual practice they are not more accurate than the Glitterboy's Boomgun. The Shem's get a +2 for the weapon, RCE provides a +2 for the BG, and assuming equal level in WP... I just don't see how it is more accurate in terms of game mechanics.

[dreicunan]

Perhaps it meant accuracy that doesn't require anchoring yourself to one place to be able to fire repeatedly.

[Blackwater Sniper]

The power requirements for each gun means the materials used to craft the slugs would be unique.

The slug in a Boom-Gun may be larger, require more power to accelerate, and have a different rail-track within the gun tube.
The slugs from the Shemmarian rail-gun may be more aerodynamic, require less power to accelerate, and be more accurate at distance.

A heavier slug would be out of sync/time being pushed/pulled down the track and get stuck in the barrel or have limited range once exiting.

[Kelorin]

I voted no based on two reasons.

1: Neither weapon mentions it can share ammo with the other. I'm fairly sure if they were able to share there would be a notation saying such.

2: Going off the drawings (I realize that's not exactly canon though) both weapons look to be of different sizes.

And yet, every rifle in North America (except the ARCHIE and Naruni ones) can use the same e-clips.

Prior to the revised Sourcebook One, I would have said no. With the reveal that the ARCHIE complex was built as (among other things) a factory and cryostasis facility for NEMA; and that the Republicans have covertly been using ARCHIE factories to build their stuff for years, I'd say the most likely scenario is that Shemarrian railguns use the same ammo type as GB railguns.

[Killer Cyborg]

I voted no based on two reasons.

1: Neither weapon mentions it can share ammo with the other. I'm fairly sure if they were able to share there would be a notation saying such.

2: Going off the drawings (I realize that's not exactly canon though) both weapons look to be of different sizes.

And yet, every rifle in North America (except the ARCHIE and Naruni ones) can use the same e-clips.

Prior to the revised Sourcebook One, I would have said no. With the reveal that the ARCHIE complex was built as (among other things) a factory and cryostasis facility for NEMA; and that the Republicans have covertly been using ARCHIE factories to build their stuff for years, I'd say the most likely scenario is that Shemarrian railguns use the same ammo type as GB railguns.

Because factories that can make countless kinds of robots, energy weapons, power armors, body armors, and so forth probably only make ONE kind of railgun ammo...?

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

And yet, every rifle in North America (except the ARCHIE and Naruni ones) can use the same e-clips.

Prior to the revised Sourcebook One, I would have said no. With the reveal that the ARCHIE complex was built as (among other things) a factory and cryostasis facility for NEMA; and that the Republicans have covertly been using ARCHIE factories to build their stuff for years, I'd say the most likely scenario is that Shemarrian railguns use the same ammo type as GB railguns.

That's one of the things that's always irritated me. Even looking at CS weapons, it's painfully obvious that the C-12 and C-14 don't use the same magazine. That's not even mentioning any of the Wilk's or NG products that get pictured eventually. And if someone is going to argue that a typo makes something canon, then illustrations that are approved by KS are just as canon. Which means the Juicer rifles use a different mag than the Wilk's rifles which use a different mag than the NG weapons which use a different mag than the CS weapons.

Or some clever sod made an adapter, sort of like the adapters for using Uzi or Sten mags in the Colt 9mm subgun/carbine. Or, more likely, a bunch of different adapters ("Use C-12 magazines in your JA-11! Only 200 credits. But wait, if you buy now you'll also receive...").

GB may be able to fire the Shem ammo, if the GM is very lenient or wants to roll dice to play "Let's see what happens (evil grin)". I most likely would let the player try, and we'll roll to see if the Boom Gun will just kick it round out the ejection port after failing to fire, or it half-@ss fires it and now there are pieces gumming up the interior of the BG, which means it will have to be taken apart and cleared.

People that write or code for things they have no clue about are how you end up with the Boom Gun being one of the most damaging weapons on the planet (per shot), at two miles, on a POINT TARGET, using flechette ammo. Or shotguns being the ultimate Be-All/End-All of infantry weapons in Call of Duty, capable of sniping someone from across the map. Or the MG3 being inferior by far on a per-shot basis to the M60 (which is the same caliber) or PKM (which is a slightly more powerful caliber) in Battlefield: Bad Company 2. Or football armor basically making Caesar's goons immune to a headshot from a 5.56mm NATO in Fallout: New Vegas. Or anything Hollywood does that involves firearms, or explosives, or hand to hand combat....heck, probably just "anything Hollywood does".

[The Beast]

And yet, every rifle in North America (except the ARCHIE and Naruni ones) can use the same e-clips.

Prior to the revised Sourcebook One, I would have said no. With the reveal that the ARCHIE complex was built as (among other things) a factory and cryostasis facility for NEMA; and that the Republicans have covertly been using ARCHIE factories to build their stuff for years, I'd say the most likely scenario is that Shemarrian railguns use the same ammo type as GB railguns.

That's one of the things that's always irritated me. Even looking at CS weapons, it's painfully obvious that the C-12 and C-14 don't use the same magazine. That's not even mentioning any of the Wilk's or NG products that get pictured eventually. And if someone is going to argue that a typo makes something canon, then illustrations that are approved by KS are just as canon. Which means the Juicer rifles use a different mag than the Wilk's rifles which use a different mag than the NG weapons which use a different mag than the CS weapons.

Or some clever sod made an adapter, sort of like the adapters for using Uzi or Sten mags in the Colt 9mm subgun/carbine. Or, more likely, a bunch of different adapters ("Use C-12 magazines in your JA-11! Only 200 credits. But wait, if you buy now you'll also receive...").

GB may be able to fire the Shem ammo, if the GM is very lenient or wants to roll dice to play "Let's see what happens (evil grin)". I most likely would let the player try, and we'll roll to see if the Boom Gun will just kick it round out the ejection port after failing to fire, or it half-@ss fires it and now there are pieces gumming up the interior of the BG, which means it will have to be taken apart and cleared.

People that write or code for things they have no clue about are how you end up with the Boom Gun being one of the most damaging weapons on the planet (per shot), at two miles, on a POINT TARGET, using flechette ammo. Or shotguns being the ultimate Be-All/End-All of infantry weapons in Call of Duty, capable of sniping someone from across the map. Or the MG3 being inferior by far on a per-shot basis to the M60 (which is the same caliber) or PKM (which is a slightly more powerful caliber) in Battlefield: Bad Company 2. Or football armor basically making Caesar's goons immune to a headshot from a 5.56mm NATO in Fallout: New Vegas. Or anything Hollywood does that involves firearms, or explosives, or hand to hand combat....heck, probably just "anything Hollywood does".

Well to be fair to Palladium, they wrote that stuff up back in the '80s. The only common thing that they could compare an eclip to were batteries. So apart from the different sizes available there wasn't much difference between them. Today though we have laptops, cell phones, camcorders, tablets, smart phones, and whatever other portable electronic devices I'm not thinking of to compare an eclip to. I can't think of one device that you could take the battery out of and expect it to not only fit into another device, but also power it without any issues. I'm not saying there aren't any, just that if there is one, it's not something commonly practiced. The closest thing I can think of is the Playstation/Xbox format war a few years ago. At the end of that Sony ended up the winner, but I still can't buy a Blue Ray in Germany, Korea, Japan, England, or where ever and expect it to work in any of my players due to the region lockouts. Yet in Rifts there's none of that.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

Well to be fair to Palladium, they wrote that stuff up back in the '80s. The only common thing that they could compare an eclip to were batteries. So apart from the different sizes available there wasn't much difference between them. Today though we have laptops, cell phones, camcorders, tablets, smart phones, and whatever other portable electronic devices I'm not thinking of to compare an eclip to. I can't think of one device that you could take the battery out of and expect it to not only fit into another device, but also power it without any issues. I'm not saying there aren't any, just that if there is one, it's not something commonly practiced. The closest thing I can think of is the Playstation/Xbox format war a few years ago. At the end of that Sony ended up the winner, but I still can't buy a Blue Ray in Germany, Korea, Japan, England, or where ever and expect it to work in any of my players due to the region lockouts. Yet in Rifts there's none of that.

That's a good point, but only up *to* a point.

I'm not going to write about slinging code, whether said writing is for a book or a game or whatever, because my codemonkeying is limited to what we did in college (one class of Visual Basic, which I haven't used since) and what I learned writing scripts for Fallout 3. I certainly wouldn't attempt to write a series of novels wherein the protagonist(s) is a codemonkey. Not without a LOT of research on my part.

I wish that the designers of MANY RPG's had the same....principle?....when it comes to weaponry, or machines, or a whole bunch of other things.

Meh, whatever. At the end of the day it's just another of the things that gets changed when I run a game again, in addition to railguns, magic, things that I think are absolutely stupid like the Skull walkers and DHT, etc. To each their own.

[Warshield73]

When SB1 came out in '90 or '91 the group I was running at the time had this discussion and we ultimately decided that the answer was no, as it was stated that ARCHIE was trying to make the Shemmarians as alien as possible and wouldn't want the ammo to giveaway their origins.

However, since SB1 Revised came out, with the revelations about his connections to GBs, I have decided that if this comes up a competent armorer will be able to adjust the Shemmarian gun to take GB rounds.

Now this is obviously just my house rule but it really it should almost never come up since the rules on ARCHIEs self-destruct systems are pretty solid.

[ShadowLogan]

Because factories that can make countless kinds of robots, energy weapons, power armors, body armors, and so forth probably only make ONE kind of railgun ammo...?

That really isn't the issue we are looking at though. From Shemarrian Nation WE KNOW he produces 2 ammo types for the Shemmarians: 8mm for the Assualt Rifle (which is a stated restyled NEMA design) and the Flechette Canister. IIRC (just not sure which source atm) it is canon that Arhcie has produced new Glitterboys and distributed them (which IMHO means fully stocked). Titan Combat Robot in RMB has a Railgun with an unstated sized ammo. By my count that is 2-4 types of Railgun ammunition Archie could be producing (since we don't have dimensions for every round).

So we know Archie can and does make multiple ammo types, the question is can the Shemmarrian Railgun and Glitterboy Boomgun share ammo?

SoT#4 pg107 in the HLS section of the book (I remember the general gist, only went back today to look at specifics). 2 points:
-1. Someone has acquired x4 Shem. Railguns (6k series), and variant ammo ("sponge round"), and powered down the weapon to lower the lethality
-2. "These heavy-duty weapons are similar to the Glitter Boy Boom Guns except they are lighter and more slender."

Point 1 doesn't help much here, but it establishes the weapon can fire 2 separate types of rounds. Weather Archie is responsible in some fashion here beyond just producing the stock guns or not I don't know. It also seems to imply that the weapon(s) can have power settings...

Point 2 here I think is of much more value. Taken at face value this would mean the Shemmarian Railgun is nothing more than a more compact version of the Boomgun AND fires the same ammunition I would think. It doesn't even contradict previous statements about the two weapons, it just clarifies them.

Now this is obviously just my house rule but it really it should almost never come up since the rules on ARCHIEs self-destruct systems are pretty solid.

It shouldn't come up, but it can:
-Shemmarian Railgun has been "recovered" by Titan Robotics and mass marketed (MercOps). So maybe the scenario of a GB and Shem. is going to be rare I agree, but a GB and Titan Robot user is likely to happen more often so it could come up from that avenue.
-Shemmarian Railgun is part of a HLS in SoT4 used in a CyberKnight Joust, complete with non-standard ammo (for the Joust) allowing for some to slip trough the cracks of the SDS.

The power requirements for each gun means the materials used to craft the slugs would be unique.

The slug in a Boom-Gun may be larger, require more power to accelerate, and have a different rail-track within the gun tube.
The slugs from the Shemmarian rail-gun may be more aerodynamic, require less power to accelerate, and be more accurate at distance.

A heavier slug would be out of sync/time being pushed/pulled down the track and get stuck in the barrel or have limited range once exiting.

I don't see how the power requirements for the gun require unique materials for each. The flechettes don't need to be Ferraro-magnetic, only the shell casing. From a HLS from SoT4 (pg 107) we know the Shemmarian Railgun can accept another type of round useful for CyberKnight "Jousts": a "sponge round" and text indicates the weapon is "powered down to a non-lethal" level.

Illustration wise we know that Shemmarian slug isn't really any more aerodynamic than the Glitterboy. We also know that 3 different sized Shemmarian Railguns fire the same ammo, the only difference is range. Said weapons are also trade damage for accuracy (how that actually works...).

[Killer Cyborg]

Because factories that can make countless kinds of robots, energy weapons, power armors, body armors, and so forth probably only make ONE kind of railgun ammo...?

That really isn't the issue we are looking at though. From Shemarrian Nation WE KNOW he produces 2 ammo types for the Shemmarians: 8mm for the Assualt Rifle (which is a stated restyled NEMA design) and the Flechette Canister. IIRC (just not sure which source atm) it is canon that Arhcie has produced new Glitterboys and distributed them (which IMHO means fully stocked). Titan Combat Robot in RMB has a Railgun with an unstated sized ammo. By my count that is 2-4 types of Railgun ammunition Archie could be producing (since we don't have dimensions for every round).

So we know Archie can and does make multiple ammo types, the question is can the Shemmarrian Railgun and Glitterboy Boomgun share ammo?

Right.
And "Archie's factories made some Republican gear" doesn't seem to point to any logical answer.

SoT#4 pg107 in the HLS section of the book (I remember the general gist, only went back today to look at specifics). 2 points:
-1. Someone has acquired x4 Shem. Railguns (6k series), and variant ammo ("sponge round"), and powered down the weapon to lower the lethality
-2. "These heavy-duty weapons are similar to the Glitter Boy Boom Guns except they are lighter and more slender."

Point 1 doesn't help much here, but it establishes the weapon can fire 2 separate types of rounds. Weather Archie is responsible in some fashion here beyond just producing the stock guns or not I don't know. It also seems to imply that the weapon(s) can have power settings...

Point 2 here I think is of much more value. Taken at face value this would mean the Shemmarian Railgun is nothing more than a more compact version of the Boomgun AND fires the same ammunition I would think. It doesn't even contradict previous statements about the two weapons, it just clarifies them.

A .410 shell is similar to a 12-gauge shell, only lighter and more slender.

[kaid]

I would also lean towards GB ammo and shemarrion ammo not being the same because titan introduced a new robot vehicle design thats main weapon is basically a repackaged shemmarion gun. It mentions this being risky if people figure out it is basically the same gun. A big robot vehicle shooting glitter boy rounds would be a bit eye raising but would not cause anybody to really think shemmarion.

[kaid]

And yet, every rifle in North America (except the ARCHIE and Naruni ones) can use the same e-clips.

Prior to the revised Sourcebook One, I would have said no. With the reveal that the ARCHIE complex was built as (among other things) a factory and cryostasis facility for NEMA; and that the Republicans have covertly been using ARCHIE factories to build their stuff for years, I'd say the most likely scenario is that Shemarrian railguns use the same ammo type as GB railguns.

That's one of the things that's always irritated me. Even looking at CS weapons, it's painfully obvious that the C-12 and C-14 don't use the same magazine. That's not even mentioning any of the Wilk's or NG products that get pictured eventually. And if someone is going to argue that a typo makes something canon, then illustrations that are approved by KS are just as canon. Which means the Juicer rifles use a different mag than the Wilk's rifles which use a different mag than the NG weapons which use a different mag than the CS weapons.

Or some clever sod made an adapter, sort of like the adapters for using Uzi or Sten mags in the Colt 9mm subgun/carbine. Or, more likely, a bunch of different adapters ("Use C-12 magazines in your JA-11! Only 200 credits. But wait, if you buy now you'll also receive...").

GB may be able to fire the Shem ammo, if the GM is very lenient or wants to roll dice to play "Let's see what happens (evil grin)". I most likely would let the player try, and we'll roll to see if the Boom Gun will just kick it round out the ejection port after failing to fire, or it half-@ss fires it and now there are pieces gumming up the interior of the BG, which means it will have to be taken apart and cleared.

People that write or code for things they have no clue about are how you end up with the Boom Gun being one of the most damaging weapons on the planet (per shot), at two miles, on a POINT TARGET, using flechette ammo. Or shotguns being the ultimate Be-All/End-All of infantry weapons in Call of Duty, capable of sniping someone from across the map. Or the MG3 being inferior by far on a per-shot basis to the M60 (which is the same caliber) or PKM (which is a slightly more powerful caliber) in Battlefield: Bad Company 2. Or football armor basically making Caesar's goons immune to a headshot from a 5.56mm NATO in Fallout: New Vegas. Or anything Hollywood does that involves firearms, or explosives, or hand to hand combat....heck, probably just "anything Hollywood does".

Well to be fair to Palladium, they wrote that stuff up back in the '80s. The only common thing that they could compare an eclip to were batteries. So apart from the different sizes available there wasn't much difference between them. Today though we have laptops, cell phones, camcorders, tablets, smart phones, and whatever other portable electronic devices I'm not thinking of to compare an eclip to. I can't think of one device that you could take the battery out of and expect it to not only fit into another device, but also power it without any issues. I'm not saying there aren't any, just that if there is one, it's not something commonly practiced. The closest thing I can think of is the Playstation/Xbox format war a few years ago. At the end of that Sony ended up the winner, but I still can't buy a Blue Ray in Germany, Korea, Japan, England, or where ever and expect it to work in any of my players due to the region lockouts. Yet in Rifts there's none of that.

Most of the eclip stuff actually makes a fair amount of sense why they are pretty interchangeable. All the north american producers started off as their tech base with NEMA foundations. When everybody there is basically starting from the same point off the same general designs it makes a lot of sense to not doink around with eclips too much as ability to resupply people in the field logistics wise if you can use salvaged eclips in a pinch. Even places like triax/england/japan work with it because again they are working off the same basic tech base of allied military forces likely trying to make sure if they ever had to fight on the same side their ammo is cross compatible.

Now take some place like the warlords of russia that was if not actively hostile was clearly not allied with north america/western europe have their own eclip variants that are not cross compatible without some kind of adapter or UEL some of the newer NG power armor has.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

And yet, every rifle in North America (except the ARCHIE and Naruni ones) can use the same e-clips.

Prior to the revised Sourcebook One, I would have said no. With the reveal that the ARCHIE complex was built as (among other things) a factory and cryostasis facility for NEMA; and that the Republicans have covertly been using ARCHIE factories to build their stuff for years, I'd say the most likely scenario is that Shemarrian railguns use the same ammo type as GB railguns.

That's one of the things that's always irritated me. Even looking at CS weapons, it's painfully obvious that the C-12 and C-14 don't use the same magazine. That's not even mentioning any of the Wilk's or NG products that get pictured eventually. And if someone is going to argue that a typo makes something canon, then illustrations that are approved by KS are just as canon. Which means the Juicer rifles use a different mag than the Wilk's rifles which use a different mag than the NG weapons which use a different mag than the CS weapons.

Or some clever sod made an adapter, sort of like the adapters for using Uzi or Sten mags in the Colt 9mm subgun/carbine. Or, more likely, a bunch of different adapters ("Use C-12 magazines in your JA-11! Only 200 credits. But wait, if you buy now you'll also receive...").

GB may be able to fire the Shem ammo, if the GM is very lenient or wants to roll dice to play "Let's see what happens (evil grin)". I most likely would let the player try, and we'll roll to see if the Boom Gun will just kick it round out the ejection port after failing to fire, or it half-@ss fires it and now there are pieces gumming up the interior of the BG, which means it will have to be taken apart and cleared.

People that write or code for things they have no clue about are how you end up with the Boom Gun being one of the most damaging weapons on the planet (per shot), at two miles, on a POINT TARGET, using flechette ammo. Or shotguns being the ultimate Be-All/End-All of infantry weapons in Call of Duty, capable of sniping someone from across the map. Or the MG3 being inferior by far on a per-shot basis to the M60 (which is the same caliber) or PKM (which is a slightly more powerful caliber) in Battlefield: Bad Company 2. Or football armor basically making Caesar's goons immune to a headshot from a 5.56mm NATO in Fallout: New Vegas. Or anything Hollywood does that involves firearms, or explosives, or hand to hand combat....heck, probably just "anything Hollywood does".

Well to be fair to Palladium, they wrote that stuff up back in the '80s. The only common thing that they could compare an eclip to were batteries. So apart from the different sizes available there wasn't much difference between them. Today though we have laptops, cell phones, camcorders, tablets, smart phones, and whatever other portable electronic devices I'm not thinking of to compare an eclip to. I can't think of one device that you could take the battery out of and expect it to not only fit into another device, but also power it without any issues. I'm not saying there aren't any, just that if there is one, it's not something commonly practiced. The closest thing I can think of is the Playstation/Xbox format war a few years ago. At the end of that Sony ended up the winner, but I still can't buy a Blue Ray in Germany, Korea, Japan, England, or where ever and expect it to work in any of my players due to the region lockouts. Yet in Rifts there's none of that.

Most of the eclip stuff actually makes a fair amount of sense why they are pretty interchangeable. All the north american producers started off as their tech base with NEMA foundations. When everybody there is basically starting from the same point off the same general designs it makes a lot of sense to not doink around with eclips too much as ability to resupply people in the field logistics wise if you can use salvaged eclips in a pinch. Even places like triax/england/japan work with it because again they are working off the same basic tech base of allied military forces likely trying to make sure if they ever had to fight on the same side their ammo is cross compatible.

Now take some place like the warlords of russia that was if not actively hostile was clearly not allied with north america/western europe have their own eclip variants that are not cross compatible without some kind of adapter or UEL some of the newer NG power armor has.

Except that the magazines are -clearly- not the same size on most of these weapons.

Id say internally, yeah, they are all pretty much the same, but you'd need an adapter to fit them into different weapons. In some cases, it wouldn't even be possible. (Go look at a Wilks and tell me where an e-clip the size of the one in the C-14 is going to fit.)

As for the Boom Gun vs Shemarian Rail Gun ammo debate - still say no.

Its a different weapon, and one Archie designed to look Alien. It would be HIGHLY suspicious if after a battle, the enemy found the area littered with Glitter Boy ammo casings. (Even if the robots/guns themselves are destroyed).

Theyre similar, but not the same. Since Archie can create Glitter Boys, it is highly likely he re-engineered the Boom Gun into something his Shemarians could use. Complete with their own (similar, but not identical) ammo.

Also, it doesn't say they are cross compatible, and unlike other Rail Guns, which use "generic rail gun ammo", these two guns use specific ammo that only they use. If they were the same, it would have been mentioned, particularly in SB1r or Shemarian Nation.

I would also lean towards GB ammo and shemarrion ammo not being the same because titan introduced a new robot vehicle design thats main weapon is basically a repackaged shemmarion gun. It mentions this being risky if people figure out it is basically the same gun. A big robot vehicle shooting glitter boy rounds would be a bit eye raising but would not cause anybody to really think shemmarion.

There's also that. It specifically mentions that the new Titan robot uses the Shemarian rail gun as its arm, and that if the CS ever clues into this, it could be a problem. (Though i would assume "Titan" would just say "hey we captured and reverse engineered that thing, shut your pie hole.") If it just fired GB rounds, i doubt anyone would notice. Theyd just be like "Titan made a boom-gun-alike that isn't as powerful so a regular bot can handle it" and move on with their day.

[dreicunan]

And yet, every rifle in North America (except the ARCHIE and Naruni ones) can use the same e-clips.

Prior to the revised Sourcebook One, I would have said no. With the reveal that the ARCHIE complex was built as (among other things) a factory and cryostasis facility for NEMA; and that the Republicans have covertly been using ARCHIE factories to build their stuff for years, I'd say the most likely scenario is that Shemarrian railguns use the same ammo type as GB railguns.

That's one of the things that's always irritated me. Even looking at CS weapons, it's painfully obvious that the C-12 and C-14 don't use the same magazine. That's not even mentioning any of the Wilk's or NG products that get pictured eventually. And if someone is going to argue that a typo makes something canon, then illustrations that are approved by KS are just as canon. Which means the Juicer rifles use a different mag than the Wilk's rifles which use a different mag than the NG weapons which use a different mag than the CS weapons.

Or some clever sod made an adapter, sort of like the adapters for using Uzi or Sten mags in the Colt 9mm subgun/carbine. Or, more likely, a bunch of different adapters ("Use C-12 magazines in your JA-11! Only 200 credits. But wait, if you buy now you'll also receive...").

GB may be able to fire the Shem ammo, if the GM is very lenient or wants to roll dice to play "Let's see what happens (evil grin)". I most likely would let the player try, and we'll roll to see if the Boom Gun will just kick it round out the ejection port after failing to fire, or it half-@ss fires it and now there are pieces gumming up the interior of the BG, which means it will have to be taken apart and cleared.

People that write or code for things they have no clue about are how you end up with the Boom Gun being one of the most damaging weapons on the planet (per shot), at two miles, on a POINT TARGET, using flechette ammo. Or shotguns being the ultimate Be-All/End-All of infantry weapons in Call of Duty, capable of sniping someone from across the map. Or the MG3 being inferior by far on a per-shot basis to the M60 (which is the same caliber) or PKM (which is a slightly more powerful caliber) in Battlefield: Bad Company 2. Or football armor basically making Caesar's goons immune to a headshot from a 5.56mm NATO in Fallout: New Vegas. Or anything Hollywood does that involves firearms, or explosives, or hand to hand combat....heck, probably just "anything Hollywood does".

Well to be fair to Palladium, they wrote that stuff up back in the '80s. The only common thing that they could compare an eclip to were batteries. So apart from the different sizes available there wasn't much difference between them. Today though we have laptops, cell phones, camcorders, tablets, smart phones, and whatever other portable electronic devices I'm not thinking of to compare an eclip to. I can't think of one device that you could take the battery out of and expect it to not only fit into another device, but also power it without any issues. I'm not saying there aren't any, just that if there is one, it's not something commonly practiced. The closest thing I can think of is the Playstation/Xbox format war a few years ago. At the end of that Sony ended up the winner, but I still can't buy a Blue Ray in Germany, Korea, Japan, England, or where ever and expect it to work in any of my players due to the region lockouts. Yet in Rifts there's none of that.

Most of the eclip stuff actually makes a fair amount of sense why they are pretty interchangeable. All the north american producers started off as their tech base with NEMA foundations. When everybody there is basically starting from the same point off the same general designs it makes a lot of sense to not doink around with eclips too much as ability to resupply people in the field logistics wise if you can use salvaged eclips in a pinch. Even places like triax/england/japan work with it because again they are working off the same basic tech base of allied military forces likely trying to make sure if they ever had to fight on the same side their ammo is cross compatible.

Now take some place like the warlords of russia that was if not actively hostile was clearly not allied with north america/western europe have their own eclip variants that are not cross compatible without some kind of adapter or UEL some of the newer NG power armor has.

Except that the magazines are -clearly- not the same size on most of these weapons.

Id say internally, yeah, they are all pretty much the same, but you'd need an adapter to fit them into different weapons. In some cases, it wouldn't even be possible. (Go look at a Wilks and tell me where an e-clip the size of the one in the C-14 is going to fit.)

A simple way to reconcile that could be to state that what appear to be the clips are actually casings going around the actual e-clip. In a world where manufacturers stick sound generators on lasers, perhaps some of them also try to "jazz up" the look of the spot where e-clips go to look more rugged.
Or it could be more evidence that illustrations are only canon when text confirms them to be canon.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

A simple way to reconcile that could be to state that what appear to be the clips are actually casings going around the actual e-clip. In a world where manufacturers stick sound generators on lasers, perhaps some of them also try to "jazz up" the look of the spot where e-clips go to look more rugged.
Or it could be more evidence that illustrations are only canon when text confirms them to be canon.

I give no fukks about canon, I'll make changes to my game as I see fit, but if someone is hung up on canon then as I said before, an illustration that was accepted by the owner of the company and main writer is *at least* as canon as a typo that made it thru the editing process. Of which there are many, one of which led to the "Glitter Boy 1k ammo capacity" topic recently.

As far as same connecting parts, different body styles, this is the explanation I like the best and I was considering going with, except it doesn't work very well for that Triax laser sniper rifle that they export to NA, first seen in SB1, or most (maybe all, I don't remember the pics and don't feel like hunting for them right this second) of the Wilk's series of rifles. These seem to have a magazine that loads in the pistol grip. Unless the part of the magazine that actually holds the energy is long and thin like an Uzi magazine (just shorter, so it fits flush), and can be removed from mags like the C-12 or the NG series, in which case that explanation works the best.

I also disregard "sound generators on lasers". That much energy zipping thru the air is going to make at least a sizzle or hum. Nothing even close to the report of a firearm, but there will be something. Electricity packing a lot less energy than a weaponized laser makes noise when it jumps (such as lighting, or if you touch a jumper cable or almost any energized wire that's live to something conductive), there's no reason to believe that a laser wouldn't, even if it's just a quiet hum. The Rule of Cool only goes so far, and adding steps in the manufacturing process as well as expense and another thing that can break or malfunction doesn't seem like a smart decision, no matter how cool a couple of M.O.M. recipients might think it is.

This is another one of those things where I say just go with whatever you like. Same connection-different case, completely different magazines for different manufacturers and to hell with what the text says, aftermarket adapters, whatever. Or make things a real pain the the @ss for the players, and go Cold War battle rifle style: NONE of them can use the same magazine because reasons.

[ShadowLogan]

Right.
And "Archie's factories made some Republican gear" doesn't seem to point to any logical answer.

True, but there are lots of illogical things going on when it comes to Rifts.

A .410 shell is similar to a 12-gauge shell, only lighter and more slender.

Doesn't really help here. We don't know the stated dimensions of the Shem round, or even how to scale it in an image (unlike a GB).

What we do know is that the Shemarrian Railguns are stated to be lighter and slimmed down versions of the Boomgun (SoT4). Basically they seem to be presented as firing the same ammunition, just with different sized guns (and it isn't like its not unheard of for firearms to be able to share ammunition between weapons of different weights and size).

As for the Boom Gun vs Shemarian Rail Gun ammo debate - still say no.

Its a different weapon, and one Archie designed to look Alien. It would be HIGHLY suspicious if after a battle, the enemy found the area littered with Glitter Boy ammo casings. (Even if the robots/guns themselves are destroyed).

&

I would also lean towards GB ammo and shemarrion ammo not being the same because titan introduced a new robot vehicle design that's main weapon is basically a repackaged shemmarion gun. It mentions this being risky if people figure out it is basically the same gun. A big robot vehicle shooting glitter boy rounds would be a bit eye raising but would not cause anybody to really think shemmarion.

Shem Railgun Ammo is already going to look like Glitter Boy Ammo when you go beyond the superficial cosmetic level:
-BOTH contain hundreds of "flechettes"
-BOTH fire cartridges that break open in flight

So Archie can cosmetically dress it up however he wants, but the fact remains the weapons' ammo will bear a striking resemblance to Glitter Boy ammunition, but that could just be the result of the requirements for a railgun to fire canisters the break open to release hundreds of flechettes. I don't think there would be much room for variation on the canister and the flechettes.

Also, it doesn't say they are cross compatible, and unlike other Rail Guns, which use "generic rail gun ammo", these two guns use specific ammo that only they use. If they were the same, it would have been mentioned, particularly in SB1r or Shemarian Nation.

In a way it does say they are cross compatible. You have the fact that the rounds operate the same, statements that make the weapon launch system similar (and even clarifying how they are different). Etc. They also make no statement that they can not share ammo, which I think is more of an indication they can share ammo given all the stuff they do that can be taken that they can. When something isn't compatible they usually specify it (like Triax FSE-clip, E-Clip Canisters, Naruni Plasma Cartridges, CTF cartridges, etc).

[dreicunan]

Unless the part of the magazine that actually holds the energy is long and thin like an Uzi magazine (just shorter, so it fits flush), and can be removed from mags like the C-12 or the NG series, in which case that explanation works the best.

That is the idea that I was attempting to convey, yes.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

Unless the part of the magazine that actually holds the energy is long and thin like an Uzi magazine (just shorter, so it fits flush), and can be removed from mags like the C-12 or the NG series, in which case that explanation works the best.

That is the idea that I was attempting to convey, yes.

Ah. Got it. Then yeah, that's a good explanation for the whole "all magazines are interchangeable thing". Much better than the current "because reasons".

[Mlp7029]

I voted no based on two reasons.

1: Neither weapon mentions it can share ammo with the other. I'm fairly sure if they were able to share there would be a notation saying such.

2: Going off the drawings (I realize that's not exactly canon though) both weapons look to be of different sizes.

And yet, every rifle in North America (except the ARCHIE and Naruni ones) can use the same e-clips.

Prior to the revised Sourcebook One, I would have said no. With the reveal that the ARCHIE complex was built as (among other things) a factory and cryostasis facility for NEMA; and that the Republicans have covertly been using ARCHIE factories to build their stuff for years, I'd say the most likely scenario is that Shemarrian railguns use the same ammo type as GB railguns.

Because factories that can make countless kinds of robots, energy weapons, power armors, body armors, and so forth probably only make ONE kind of railgun ammo...?

Because all warfare is logistics and since the factory was set up to build boom gun ammo why complicate the logistics train with another ammo type.

[Vrykolas2k]

Probably not the same calibre. So no.

[Killer Cyborg]

I voted no based on two reasons.

1: Neither weapon mentions it can share ammo with the other. I'm fairly sure if they were able to share there would be a notation saying such.

2: Going off the drawings (I realize that's not exactly canon though) both weapons look to be of different sizes.

And yet, every rifle in North America (except the ARCHIE and Naruni ones) can use the same e-clips.

Prior to the revised Sourcebook One, I would have said no. With the reveal that the ARCHIE complex was built as (among other things) a factory and cryostasis facility for NEMA; and that the Republicans have covertly been using ARCHIE factories to build their stuff for years, I'd say the most likely scenario is that Shemarrian railguns use the same ammo type as GB railguns.

Because factories that can make countless kinds of robots, energy weapons, power armors, body armors, and so forth probably only make ONE kind of railgun ammo...?

Because all warfare is logistics and since the factory was set up to build boom gun ammo why complicate the logistics train with another ammo type.

What makes you think the factory was originally set up to mak boom gun ammo, rather than reconfigured by the Republicans?
I mean, Archie wasn’t building any of the other Republican gear before they took over the factory; why would he have been building their ammo?
Conversely, if the factory WAS already set up to build Republican gear, what makes you think that Archie was using it to make Shemarrian ammo?
It’s not like the Shemarrians were using other Republican gear.

[Killer Cyborg]

Right.
And "Archie's factories made some Republican gear" doesn't seem to point to any logical answer.

True, but there are lots of illogical things going on when it comes to Rifts.

Insufficient reason to make random assumptions, then argue for them using illogic.

A .410 shell is similar to a 12-gauge shell, only lighter and more slender.

Doesn't really help here. We don't know the stated dimensions of the Shem round, or even how to scale it in an image (unlike a GB).

What we do know is that the Shemarrian Railguns are stated to be lighter and slimmed down versions of the Boomgun (SoT4).

No, we know that the Shemarrian ammo is "similar," that it's "lighter," and that it's "slimmer."
All of these things are indicative of differences.
"Similar" means "NOT THE SAME."
"Lighter" means "not the same weight"
and "slimmer" means "NOT the same diameter."

It's not a version of the Boom Gun ammo.
It's similar, but it has different weight and size.
Kind of like a .410 compared to a 12-gauge.
There is nothing about any of this that indicates that they're compatible.

Basically they seem to be presented as firing the same ammunition,

Not at all.
Not one whit of it.
They're presented as different ammunitions of different size for different guns, designed by different, competing manufacturers (KLS and Cyberworks).
They're similar, but holy heck... most modern ammunition is similar to countless other non-compatible rounds.
Heck, crossbow bolt is similar to a ballista bolt, only the crossbow bolt is "lighter and more slimmed down."
There's absolutely nothing in that phrasing that indicates compatibility, and that phrasing seems to be the sole basis for the idea that the ammo is compatible.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I mean, Archie wasn’t building any of the other Republican gear before they took over the factory;

Its a given that Glitter Boys arent strictly Republican gear, but Archie has been making Glitter Boys for centuries.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Or it could be more evidence that illustrations are only canon when text confirms them to be canon.

Then Kevin should stop laying out money paying Artists, because at that point the illustrations are less than worthless - theyre misleading and actively unhelpful.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I also disregard "sound generators on lasers". That much energy zipping thru the air is going to make at least a sizzle or hum. Nothing even close to the report of a firearm, but there will be something.

Weapons-grade laser fire actually sounds like a lightning bolt. Its VERY loud. It just isn't generated from a single point (the barrel/breach/point of fire), it reports down the entire length of the beam. It literally annihilates the air it passes through and causes a temporary vacuum. The air rushing into fill the void is quite loud.

There's some videos on YouTube of DARPA testing a trailer-pulled anti-ICBM laser from the mid-late 90s. It's loud as all hell. Basically "Buzzzz..... CRACK!" after the beam switches off.

[Killer Cyborg]

I mean, Archie wasn’t building any of the other Republican gear before they took over the factory;

Its a given that Glitter Boys arent strictly Republican gear, but Archie has been making Glitter Boys for centuries.

Care to elaborate on and source that claim?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

SB1r.

Archie has made Glitterboys and left them for adventurers to find since the Dark Ages. Remember, he wasn't just a Cyberworks AI - Cyberworks developed him, but his complex (especially with the SB1r mega-retcons) was NEMA, with full production facilities for ALL NEMA technology.

[Killer Cyborg]

SB1r.

Archie has made Glitterboys and left them for adventurers to find since the Dark Ages. Remember, he wasn't just a Cyberworks AI - Cyberworks developed him, but his complex (especially with the SB1r mega-retcons) was NEMA, with full production facilities for ALL NEMA technology.

Well-sourced.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Page 120, if it matters. Centuries was a bit off, but it is “more than 150 years” hes been leaving caches of Glitter Boys and/or other weapons and supplies for people to find.

[ShadowLogan]

No, we know that the Shemarrian ammo is "similar," that it's "lighter," and that it's "slimmer."
All of these things are indicative of differences.
"Similar" means "NOT THE SAME."
"Lighter" means "not the same weight"
and "slimmer" means "NOT the same diameter."

It's not a version of the Boom Gun ammo.
It's similar, but it has different weight and size.
Kind of like a .410 compared to a 12-gauge.
There is nothing about any of this that indicates that they're compatible.

???? Where are you getting this. I think you are confusing statements in the books provided about the railguns themselves with the ammo.

SB1o pg91 (repeated in Shemarrian Nation pg56) describes the AMMO as "It fires a single flechette filled cartridge. The cartridge breaks open and releases hundreds of shards that strike at such speeds that they punch through mega-damage armor." That is for the Shemarrian 6000 Railgun, the Shemmarian 4000 Railgun "chambers the same ammunition as the standard rail gun, but has significantly reduced range due to barrel length." THESE are the only statements about the standard AMMO for the Shemmarrian Railguns (4000/6000/6070, the 6000 is just called the Shemarrian Railgun in SB1o).

We know from descriptions that the Glitter Boy's RG-14's ammo works the same way. Fires in a cartridge, breaks open to 200 flechettes (200 does qualify as "hundreds"). Illustrations provide details on the RG-14's ammo (dimensions, layout, etc), the only illustration I know of for the Shem Ammo lacks dimensions, doesn't detail interior setup, etc. About the only thing we can say is the casings for the two guns are different, but that doesn't mean they aren't interchangeable.

SOT4 pg 107. "These heavy-duty weapons are similar to Glitter Boy Boom Guns except they are lighter and more slender." In the next paragraph it goes "The rail guns have all been powered down to fire a non-lethal 'sponge round' ...." The statement about being lighter and more slender is discussing the RAIL GUN ITSELF, NOT the AMMO. This statement also says they are similar, but then details some new differences in the guns themselves.

SB1o pg91. "This electro-magnetic mass driver system is similar to that of the Glitter Boy boom gun. Although the basic principles are the same, this weapon is designed for accuracy rather than destructive power and has a suppressor system that lessens the recoil and muffles the sonic boom" Shemarrian Nation pg56 when discussing the same gun is more 'wordie', but doesn't change anything stated here. Again this is describing the gun itself, not the ammo.

[Killer Cyborg]

No, we know that the Shemarrian ammo is "similar," that it's "lighter," and that it's "slimmer."
All of these things are indicative of differences.
"Similar" means "NOT THE SAME."
"Lighter" means "not the same weight"
and "slimmer" means "NOT the same diameter."

It's not a version of the Boom Gun ammo.
It's similar, but it has different weight and size.
Kind of like a .410 compared to a 12-gauge.
There is nothing about any of this that indicates that they're compatible.

???? Where are you getting this. I think you are confusing statements in the books provided about the railguns themselves with the ammo.

I'm going off of what people have posted here.
I assume some passages quoted or paraphrased were talking about ammunition, when they were apparently talking about weapons.
It doesn't change the picture any.

SB1o pg91 (repeated in Shemarrian Nation pg56) describes the AMMO as "It fires a single flechette filled cartridge. The cartridge breaks open and releases hundreds of shards that strike at such speeds that they punch through mega-damage armor." That is for the Shemarrian 6000 Railgun, the Shemmarian 4000 Railgun "chambers the same ammunition as the standard rail gun, but has significantly reduced range due to barrel length." THESE are the only statements about the standard AMMO for the Shemmarrian Railguns (4000/6000/6070, the 6000 is just called the Shemarrian Railgun in SB1o).

We know from descriptions that the Glitter Boy's RG-14's ammo works the same way.

So... because a 12-gauge and a .410 shell "both contain dozens of tiny pellets," etc. etc., that means that they're probably compatible?

SOT4 pg 107. "These heavy-duty weapons are similar to Glitter Boy Boom Guns except they are lighter and more slender." In the next paragraph it goes "The rail guns have all been powered down to fire a non-lethal 'sponge round' ...." The statement about being lighter and more slender is discussing the RAIL GUN ITSELF, NOT the AMMO. This statement also says they are similar, but then details some new differences in the guns themselves.

Okay... so it has zero to do with the ammunition.
So... how's "this gun is similar to another gun only lighter and more slender" mean anything close to "these guns use the same ammo?
Again, .410 vs. 12-gauge.
Again, crossbow vs. ballista.
Again, a zillion other obvious comparisons of real-world weapons that where "are similar to" doesn't mean anything close to "has interchangeable ammunition."

[Killer Cyborg]

Page 120, if it matters. Centuries was a bit off, but it is “more than 150 years” hes been leaving caches of Glitter Boys and/or other weapons and supplies for people to find.

Right.
Which means that his factories can make GBs, can make Shemarrian rail guns, and can make "other weapons."
None of which means that the various weapons can share ammunition unless specified.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

I also disregard "sound generators on lasers". That much energy zipping thru the air is going to make at least a sizzle or hum. Nothing even close to the report of a firearm, but there will be something.

Weapons-grade laser fire actually sounds like a lightning bolt. Its VERY loud. It just isn't generated from a single point (the barrel/breach/point of fire), it reports down the entire length of the beam. It literally annihilates the air it passes through and causes a temporary vacuum. The air rushing into fill the void is quite loud.

There's some videos on YouTube of DARPA testing a trailer-pulled anti-ICBM laser from the mid-late 90s. It's loud as all hell. Basically "Buzzzz..... CRACK!" after the beam switches off.

Thank you, that's what I thought but I didn't have the info right at my fingertips and didn't want to talk out my ass.

I'd be interested in watching some of those videos. I'll have to search them later today.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Page 120, if it matters. Centuries was a bit off, but it is “more than 150 years” hes been leaving caches of Glitter Boys and/or other weapons and supplies for people to find.

Right.
Which means that his factories can make GBs, can make Shemarrian rail guns, and can make "other weapons."
None of which means that the various weapons can share ammunition unless specified.

Totally agree. The Shemarian round is only similar. The illustration even looks different.

I was just suggesting/correcting the assertion/idea that Archie only manufactured Archie-things. Theres a line in Aftermath that a VERY sizable portion of the “knockoff” weapons and armor found in North America are manufactured by Archie, as well. And he’s got a pretty big portion of the electronics components market as well. He and Wilks combined have half the market or more.

[Killer Cyborg]

Page 120, if it matters. Centuries was a bit off, but it is “more than 150 years” hes been leaving caches of Glitter Boys and/or other weapons and supplies for people to find.

Right.
Which means that his factories can make GBs, can make Shemarrian rail guns, and can make "other weapons."
None of which means that the various weapons can share ammunition unless specified.

Totally agree. The Shemarian round is only similar. The illustration even looks different.

I was just suggesting/correcting the assertion/idea that Archie only manufactured Archie-things.

And I stand corrected on that point, sir!

Theres a line in Aftermath that a VERY sizable portion of the “knockoff” weapons and armor found in North America are manufactured by Archie, as well. And he’s got a pretty big portion of the electronics components market as well. He and Wilks combined have half the market or more.

That kind of knocks the whole "Archie manufactures both Shemarrian rounds and GB rounds, so they're probably compatible" angle straight out of the water.

[dreicunan]

Or it could be more evidence that illustrations are only canon when text confirms them to be canon.

Then Kevin should stop laying out money paying Artists, because at that point the illustrations are less than worthless - theyre misleading and actively unhelpful.

Well, if the illustration and the text disagree, which one takes precedence? In my experience it's been the text. So if the text says that the e-clips are compatible, that trumps the illustrations.

Note that I don't disagree with what you are saying, though I'd probably instead say that Kevin should stop laying out money paying artists without giving the reminders about issues like "make sure the e-clips are of a consistent size."

[Shark_Force]

seems to me that if the shemarrian weapons fired glitter boy rounds, they wouldn't describe it, they'd just say it fires glitter boy ammunition.

i mean, i'd say that if the glitter boy is not the most iconic thing in the setting, it's up there. they can just say it uses the same ammunition if it uses the same ammunition.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Or it could be more evidence that illustrations are only canon when text confirms them to be canon.

Then Kevin should stop laying out money paying Artists, because at that point the illustrations are less than worthless - theyre misleading and actively unhelpful.

Well, if the illustration and the text disagree, which one takes precedence? In my experience it's been the text. So if the text says that the e-clips are compatible, that trumps the illustrations.

Note that I don't disagree with what you are saying, though I'd probably instead say that Kevin should stop laying out money paying artists without giving the reminders about issues like "make sure the e-clips are of a consistent size."

Easier to just write a McGuffin, really.

Your idea (i think it was yours) up-thread about the ACTUAL e-clip being very much smaller than almost all of those "magazines" and more like a pistol-sized magazine or the stick-style magazine on a Stenn or Uzi would have taken all of 2 minutes to write and would completely solve the issue.

Magazines that are bigger are just a shell around the actual e-clip which is much smaller. Wilks weapons just fit the e-clip without a magazine shell. Everyone else puts on pretty shells.

Solved.

But these are the kinds of details Kevin is -really- bad at, historically.

[ShadowLogan]

I'm going off of what people have posted here.
I assume some passages quoted or paraphrased were talking about ammunition, when they were apparently talking about weapons.
It doesn't change the picture any.

I reviewed my postings where I quoted, I don't see how one could mix the two up (aside from the usual culprits like tiredness).

So... because a 12-gauge and a .410 shell "both contain dozens of tiny pellets," etc. etc., that means that they're probably compatible?

No. However your use of this analogy was faulty based on taking statements about the rail guns themselves for the ammunition. We have no information about how the two rounds actually compare in terms of measurements. This isn't 2nd Edition Robotech where practically every weapon (beam, projectile) is described in terms of its caliber/size (9mm, 5.56mm, etc). If we had that information, we could probably say more easily (if not negate the existence of this topic altogether).

Okay... so it has zero to do with the ammunition.
So... how's "this gun is similar to another gun only lighter and more slender" mean anything close to "these guns use the same ammo?

1. Both are designed to fire flechette filled canisters (suggesting they could be the same size based on other bits).
2. The description in SOT4/SB1/ShN states they (Shem RGs) are similar to the Boomgun. Each source makes a note on how they are different than a boomgun, none establish they use incompatible ammo with each other OR the Boomgun (Palladium has a precedent for calling out such restrictions IMHO)
3. The description in ShN has the Shemarrian 6000, Shemarrian 4000, and Shemarrian 6070 Railguns using the same type of ammo. So we know that the Railguns can come in 3 sizes using the same ammo, with the only difference in terms of range and apparent "bulkiness"
4. The idea the ammunition size would be altered to be incompatible to mask its Earthly origins has a .30-06 hole in it (Shem Nation Hunting Rifle, specifically is called out as using Earth native rounds), followed up by Mini-Missile (used by their Mounts as a new option since SB1o, nothing indicates the mini-missiles are anything but "stock" pg65 ShN). Text in Shem. Nation establishes they apparently use native materials in construction (pg55), even with their advanced and alien tech.

About the only two two points that suggest it might not be:
1. Visual depiction in SB1o/RMB (and later reused) of the actual rounds.
2. Lack of information on the size of the Shem Flechette Round itself. We can't even determine that from the profile illustrations as the shell appears to be enlarged and IINM there is not description of the dimensions of the weapon (not unheard of).

Remember the question IS NOT are the RG-14 and Shem-4k/6k/6070/Titan firing the same ammunition. The question IS CAN they share ammunition. Real world precedent exists (along w/in-game) for ammunition to be usable by multiple firing systems IF it is of the same size (I get you aren't firing a 9mm bullet in a 5.56mm gun) and even potentially visually distinct (M1A1's 120mm canon shells have highly distinct characteristics, but they all fire from the same weapon for ex.)

Which means that his factories can make GBs, can make Shemarrian rail guns, and can make "other weapons."
None of which means that the various weapons can share ammunition unless specified.

Palladium's MO though is to call out such restrictions on ammunition types though:
-Naruni Plasma Cartridges
-CTF Cartridges
-FSE-clips (Triax)
-uses only Long or Short/Standard Eclip
-special energy cells (built-in, or canister)
-caliber (would be obvious)
-manufacture/race energy clips (Arkhons, Megaversal Legion, Naruni, etc)
-PPE/ISP (in case of Technowizard or Psionic Tech)
-Pump Pistols (Triax, CS)
-Rocket Rounds (Columbia in SA1)

Nothing really exists that establishes the rounds can or can not be shared. Precedent though seems to favor they can as Palladium tends to call that out in these situations and not leave it vague (as in other areas).

[Killer Cyborg]

So... because a 12-gauge and a .410 shell "both contain dozens of tiny pellets," etc. etc., that means that they're probably compatible?

No. However your use of this analogy was faulty based on taking statements about the rail guns themselves for the ammunition.

Okay, how about "because they both have triggers, stocks, hammers, and barrels, .410 shotguns and 12-gauges probably use the same ammunition"...?
Does that make sense to you?
Because that's basically what's being said: "these two guns are similar, so the probably use the same ammo."
Which just doesn't follow logically.

We have no information about how the two rounds actually compare in terms of measurements.

Exactly.
So what you're trying to do is to claim because the guns are "similar," but different sizes, they likely use the same ammo.
Which makes no sense.

Okay... so it has zero to do with the ammunition.
So... how's "this gun is similar to another gun only lighter and more slender" mean anything close to "these guns use the same ammo?

1. Both are designed to fire flechette filled canisters (suggesting they could be the same size based on other bits).

Both .410s and 12-gauges are designed to fire shotgun shells.
Nothing about that suggests that they're the same size.

2. The description in SOT4/SB1/ShN states they (Shem RGs) are similar to the Boomgun. Each source makes a note on how they are different than a boomgun, none establish they use incompatible ammo with each other OR the Boomgun (Palladium has a precedent for calling out such restrictions IMHO)

You have already noted the similarity in 1.
That's how they're similar.
Mos railguns are machine-gun style, and these two guns are not. They're similar in that they fire canisters of flechettes.
No reason to assume any other similarity.

3. The description in ShN has the Shemarrian 6000, Shemarrian 4000, and Shemarrian 6070 Railguns using the same type of ammo. So we know that the Railguns can come in 3 sizes using the same ammo, with the only difference in terms of range and apparent "bulkiness"

Do you really need me to name three shotguns by the same manufacturer that use the same ammo, then to name a shotgun by a different manufacturer that uses a different ammo?
Nothing about the fact that 3 Cyberworks weapons use the same ammo indicates that a KLS weapon uses the Cyberworks ammo.
If we were talking about real-world weapons, nobody would even try to make such a claim:
"Well, Saiga makes three different 12-gauge shotguns, so this random Mossberg that is noted to be "similar" to one of those Saigas probably uses 12-gauge ammo. It's not that they're both semi-automatic. It's not that they're both shotguns. It's not anything stylistic. It's gotta be that they have compatible ammunition!"

4. The idea the ammunition size would be altered to be incompatible to mask its Earthly origins has a .30-06 hole in it (Shem Nation Hunting Rifle, specifically is called out as using Earth native rounds), followed up by Mini-Missile (used by their Mounts as a new option since SB1o, nothing indicates the mini-missiles are anything but "stock" pg65 ShN). Text in Shem. Nation establishes they apparently use native materials in construction (pg55), even with their advanced and alien tech.

That one's not an argument that I've made nor care about, so I won't defend it.
The only argument needed is that it's a completely unfounded assumption to believe that Palladium intended these two weapons to have compatible ammunition, and the only clue they left was a note somewhere that the weapons were "similar."

About the only two two points that suggest it might not be:
1. Visual depiction in SB1o/RMB (and later reused) of the actual rounds.
2. Lack of information on the size of the Shem Flechette Round itself. We can't even determine that from the profile illustrations as the shell appears to be enlarged and IINM there is not description of the dimensions of the weapon (not unheard of).

3. The utter lack of indication anywhere that they might be compatible.[/quote]

Which means that his factories can make GBs, can make Shemarrian rail guns, and can make "other weapons."
None of which means that the various weapons can share ammunition unless specified.

Palladium's MO though is to call out such restrictions on ammunition types though:
-Naruni Plasma Cartridges
-CTF Cartridges
-FSE-clips (Triax)
-uses only Long or Short/Standard Eclip
-special energy cells (built-in, or canister)
-caliber (would be obvious)
-manufacture/race energy clips (Arkhons, Megaversal Legion, Naruni, etc)
-PPE/ISP (in case of Technowizard or Psionic Tech)
-Pump Pistols (Triax, CS)
-Rocket Rounds (Columbia in SA1)

No idea what you're trying to say with that list.
Do all those weapons specify that they can't use GB rounds or something...?

Nothing really exists that establishes the rounds can or can not be shared.

Nothing really exists that establishes that the two guns can't fly you to the moon either, there's just no reason to assume that they can.

[Axelmania]

About these caches of Glitter Boys...

We know that Titan Robotics secretly plants surveillance hardware inside their bots (Titan series combat/explorer/recon) and probably PA (flying titan) and uses the "free repairs" to recover the footage.

While I can't recall hearing of free repairs for GBs to give a similar opportunity, is it possible ARCHIE could have planted similar recording devices in his free GBs too, and then sends out his robots to secretly make contact with GBs (probably not hard to find) and retrieve the data?

True...there is the little matter of the suspiciously Shemarrian-like rail gun arm on the Titan Assault robot that may bite them in the arse....but they can try to explain that by claiming(through their Titan Robotics proxies) that it was an attempt to reverse-engineer the Shemarrians' weapons(cue horribly-worked out PR campaign to explain WHY the Shemarrians haven't enforced Tribal copyrights by blowing away or confiscating every Titan Assault 'bot, or every Titan 'bot on just plain principle until TR cried uncle).

Titan Robotics could claim the Shemarrians must be able to distinguish between innocent customers and the ones at fault (TR) who remain far off, protected away from the Shemarrian territories.

looking at CS weapons, it's painfully obvious that the C-12 and C-14 don't use the same magazine. That's not even mentioning any of the Wilk's or NG products that get pictured eventually.

The way I would rationalize this is what looks like the e-clips (yet appear different) are actually all just containment chambers for the much smaller interchangeable e-clips.

The reason these chambers look like a faux-magazine is a deterrent against easy theft, untrained people will grab it and think they are pulling the magazine out, but are actually just pulling part of the handle.

This would also help explain why you now need a WP to reload weapons as of RUE. People without WP are idiots who pull on the faux magazines, people with WP know how to open a latch to reveal the hidden E-clip within.