Bad News for PF fans...

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Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Listed in a tentative, loose order of probable release. Subject to change.
The Rifter® #79
Rifts® Sovietski™
In the Face of Death™ – A Dead Reign® Sourcebook
The Rifter® #80
Rifts® The Disavowed™
Rifts® Bestiary of North America, Volume One
Rifts® Bestiary of North America, Volume Two
Rifts® CS Arsenal™
Rifts® Living Nowhere™
Palladium Fantasy®: Garden of the Gods™ (and other sourcebooks)
Splicers® and more.


The Garden of the gods has been moved back by three unannounced books and the Nowhere book. (I don't follow the DR setting so it is new to me.)
But with this new list, looking at it very very optimistically) it pushes GoG back to at least spring....(based on historic publishing performance) even later then this time next year.

I am, for one, disappointed that the Book I am looking forward too got pushed back by (based on the Rifter preview) a 2nd rate rifts book.

The Two Beasties books...*shrugs* if they include the SDC stats for the Beasties it might be worth the wait. Otherwise they could just as well be scheduled after the GoG book. (It would give them time to write up said SDC stats.)
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Osun »

It me
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Glistam »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Listed in a tentative, loose order of probable release. Subject to change.
The Rifter® #79
Rifts® Sovietski™
In the Face of Death™ – A Dead Reign® Sourcebook
The Rifter® #80
Rifts® The Disavowed™
Rifts® Bestiary of North America, Volume One
Rifts® Bestiary of North America, Volume Two
Rifts® CS Arsenal™
Rifts® Living Nowhere™
Palladium Fantasy®: Garden of the Gods™ (and other sourcebooks)
Splicers® and more.


The Garden of the gods has been moved back by three unannounced books and the Nowhere book. (I don't follow the DR setting so it is new to me.)
But with this new list, looking at it very very optimistically) it pushes GoG back to at least spring....(based on historic publishing performance) even later then this time next year.

I am, for one, disappointed that the Book I am looking forward too got pushed back by (based on the Rifter preview) a 2nd rate rifts book.

The Two Beasties books...*shrugs* if they include the SDC stats for the Beasties it might be worth the wait. Otherwise they could just as well be scheduled after the GoG book. (It would give them time to write up said SDC stats.)

And no Hardware Unlimited™ in sight... :-( :cry:
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by The Beast »

Glistam wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Listed in a tentative, loose order of probable release. Subject to change.
The Rifter® #79
Rifts® Sovietski™
In the Face of Death™ – A Dead Reign® Sourcebook
The Rifter® #80
Rifts® The Disavowed™
Rifts® Bestiary of North America, Volume One
Rifts® Bestiary of North America, Volume Two
Rifts® CS Arsenal™
Rifts® Living Nowhere™
Palladium Fantasy®: Garden of the Gods™ (and other sourcebooks)
Splicers® and more.


The Garden of the gods has been moved back by three unannounced books and the Nowhere book. (I don't follow the DR setting so it is new to me.)
But with this new list, looking at it very very optimistically) it pushes GoG back to at least spring....(based on historic publishing performance) even later then this time next year.

I am, for one, disappointed that the Book I am looking forward too got pushed back by (based on the Rifter preview) a 2nd rate rifts book.

The Two Beasties books...*shrugs* if they include the SDC stats for the Beasties it might be worth the wait. Otherwise they could just as well be scheduled after the GoG book. (It would give them time to write up said SDC stats.)

And no Hardware Unlimited™ in sight... :-( :cry:


Yeah someone wrote that book sometime around 2005. It has to be kept back another decade so all the "current" technology's twenty years out of date just like when Heroes Unlimited first came out.
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Jimbo »

Sadly, I am not surprised by this. It seems like the broken bastard child ( Rifts) gets all the attention, that or Dead Reign.
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Mr. Jays »

Jimbo wrote:Sadly, I am not surprised by this. It seems like the broken bastard child ( Rifts) gets all the attention, that or Dead Reign.

They have to print what sells
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Mr. Jays wrote:
Jimbo wrote:Sadly, I am not surprised by this. It seems like the broken bastard child ( Rifts) gets all the attention, that or Dead Reign.

They have to print what sells

So how do you promote PB's other settings to those who play Rifts?
Edit: that was aimed at everyone.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Slight001 »

Simple fact of life... they need at least one more editor... an actual editor not a writer, but an editor...

As it stands everything gets driven though the same gateway to printing, Kevin S., so we have a serious log jam and it's only going to get worse.
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Slight001 wrote:Simple fact of life... they need at least one more editor... an actual editor not a writer, but an editor...

As it stands everything gets driven though the same gateway to printing, Kevin S., so we have a serious log jam and it's only going to get worse.


theoretically, the business manager they hired *should* have the same effect, simply by freeing up (hopefully) a large amount of kevin's time.

of course, we won't know if that's true or not until enough time has passed for us to see if the rate of publishing actually increases.
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Hotrod »

Lopan appears to have dropped off the radar entirely, too. That's a shame.
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Panomas II »

The format for creating monsters (in reference to the RIFTS Bestiaries), which are portable to PF, with SDC stats was done in the last submission I published with the Rifter (#67) I can't recall which Rifter author I borrowed the idea (of including SDC stats) from... I think it was Steven

As far as PF stats, my bet is that Palladium won't do it. The monster system as is doesn't have anything technically refined and going back through and gauging each beast for PF is time consuming... I enjoyed doing it myself, but weighing this and that, and the fact that the two systems are not actually universal, creates some challenges.

As with all of these things... I'm waiting on wave 2 of RRT to be delivered (to my friends) but I'd likely wait for the PDFs as well. So far that is the Atlantean Book, Dark Designs and will likely be the bestiaries but I'd have to look at them first...

Edit: And yeah, where is Lopan!
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Jack Burton »

Scott Gibbons is still around, right? I hope so. It would be great if he could take some pressure off of Kevin so Kevin can do what he does so well. Scott started out posting a lot, but he's been silent for a while. Maybe just busy..
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Tiree »

I think I bandied this about a half dozen or so years ago - Kevin entrusts one of his freelancers as a 'line editor' for one of the smaller not so popular lines. See how it works out, see if the log jam goes away. Give that person full creative control and vision. Give that person 18 months to see how much gets processed and out the door.
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Panomas II wrote:The format for creating monsters (in reference to the RIFTS Bestiaries), which are portable to PF, with SDC stats was done in the last submission I published with the Rifter (#67) I can't recall which Rifter author I borrowed the idea (of including SDC stats) from... I think it was Steven

...snip

The PF M&A and D&G lists dual DC listings. It would be good for the rifts books to catch up with the PF books and include dual DC listings.

The Beast/Monster listing format has not changed much since the original RCB1 was published. And are used in nearly all listings of monsters no matter what setting the monster is in. So not "protable to PF", The format is already in PF, and other settings.
Now if you meant that you are talking about random monster tables.....

PF already has tables for creating random (SDC/SN) beasts in the 1st Land of the Damed book.

And since the Dimension Books are Rifts branded....Rifts already has random monster tables in the Thundercloud Galaxy book. Do we really need another random monster table?
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Panomas II »

Tiree wrote:I think I bandied this about a half dozen or so years ago - Kevin entrusts one of his freelancers as a 'line editor' for one of the smaller not so popular lines. See how it works out, see if the log jam goes away. Give that person full creative control and vision. Give that person 18 months to see how much gets processed and out the door.


For this to work you're really talking about a line developer. I like the idea. For it to work, the person would have to be willing to work for a small percentage of sales because paying them even minimum wage at 20 hours a week would likely be too costly. Time wise it really wouldn't be worth it. Let's do some napkin math! :mrgreen:

Why does everything go through Kevin? It's simple $. Let's say that Freelancer X is good, and writes a 192 page sourcebook... I can't remember but I want to say the going rates for writing an official sourcebook was 1K-3K, if Palladium pays the high end of that and Freelancer X does four books a year that's 12k. Someone more capable than I (which admittedly there a million of those guys) working a 10hrs per week might be able to write 4 sourcebooks a year... But they'd have to be good. But guys like this who are that good wouldn't likely work for these rates anyhow. Or without a legit contract.

If they pay the freelancer on page count alone, like for the Rifter (which I suspect is how they do it) that'd be just short of $2k ($1,920), but we haven't subtracted space for art yet... So how much page space does art take up? I'd say somewhere between 20%-25%. So now the freelancer is left with something between $1,400-$1,600 or (x4) $4,800-$6,400... Lets just say it's $6,400 for the year...

If this guy is really proficient... He does it 10hrs per week 520 hours per year and gets $12 per hour. A decent wage in the year (cue the Conan theme music) 2000. (seventeen years ago)

But how much work is this guy doing? Because Palladium Pays per page, font size matters... Let's do more Napkin Math!

Let's say space for art is on the high side (and less writing for Freelancer X) at 25% of 192 pages... And subtract (48) that 25% Which is 144 pages. I wrote my submissions at 10 point and found that each submission (just the text space) was approximately a third less content when published... A third of 144 pages is ironically 48 and we are back at 192! Crazy! It's like I knew where this was leading when I started... :mrgreen: Words per page of based on my experience put word count per page between 500-600 (including formatting) Let's settle on 500 words per page... but we have to add that third (+250) to get a Palladium Page and settle on 750.

750x192 That's 144000 words multiplied by 4 576k words for the year... But for now lets stick to 144k...
Per week that's producing (/52) 2769 words (doable) not to bad... or 277 words per hour...

Wait what!? 277 words per hour! That's very unlikely. That's a lot! Even half of that 139 words is a lot of RPG writing... If we doubled the number of hours per week to 20 and reduced our hourly wage in half... ($12/hr to $6/hr) maybe... (but still doubtful)

Additionally how much is Palladium Paying per word... well if we use the same example as above and increase print space to a third longer than the average page submission this works out to a bit over 1 cent per word... We divide 576K words by our wage: $6,400 and get... $0.01111 One cent and a tenth...

I write on my blog all the time about rates of Pay in the RPG Hobby... Myself I usually write for 2-4 cents per word and I have along way to go... The question is who is Palladium Really going to get at these rates. But we already know the answer... Only folks with a real passion to write for them. They don't do it for the money and most of them are decent writers, but at the same time (like myself) they are not exactly pros either... (no offence intended)
Last edited by Panomas II on Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Panomas II »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Panomas II wrote:The format for creating monsters (in reference to the RIFTS Bestiaries), which are portable to PF, with SDC stats was done in the last submission I published with the Rifter (#67) I can't recall which Rifter author I borrowed the idea (of including SDC stats) from... I think it was Steven

...snip

The PF M&A and D&G lists dual DC listings. It would be good for the rifts books to catch up with the PF books and include dual DC listings.

The Beast/Monster listing format has not changed much since the original RCB1 was published. And are used in nearly all listings of monsters no matter what setting the monster is in. So not "protable to PF", The format is already in PF, and other settings.
Now if you meant that you are talking about random monster tables.....

PF already has tables for creating random (SDC/SN) beasts in the 1st Land of the Damed book.

And since the Dimension Books are Rifts branded....Rifts already has random monster tables in the Thundercloud Galaxy book. Do we really need another random monster table?


No, I specifically used a certain format from a Rifter for my submission. Not all the formats (written by various authors) are the same... They might include the same info... But I was specifically referencing the order of stat blocks and the like. Hence the format... :wink:
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Tiree »

Panomas II wrote:
Tiree wrote:I think I bandied this about a half dozen or so years ago - Kevin entrusts one of his freelancers as a 'line editor' for one of the smaller not so popular lines. See how it works out, see if the log jam goes away. Give that person full creative control and vision. Give that person 18 months to see how much gets processed and out the door.


For this to work you're really talking about a line developer. I like the idea. For it to work, the person would have to be willing to work for a small percentage of sales because paying them even minimum wage at 20 hours a week would likely be too costly. Time wise it really wouldn't be worth it. Let's do some napkin math! :mrgreen:

Why not a small 'Flat Fee'. Palladium Books state that they are lazy, and they pay their writers 10 dollars a typeset page per printed book. So your talking a writer is getting about 3 to 4k per book that's published. A line editor would probably get something in the same ball park.
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Panomas II »

Tiree wrote:
Panomas II wrote:
Tiree wrote:I think I bandied this about a half dozen or so years ago - Kevin entrusts one of his freelancers as a 'line editor' for one of the smaller not so popular lines. See how it works out, see if the log jam goes away. Give that person full creative control and vision. Give that person 18 months to see how much gets processed and out the door.


For this to work you're really talking about a line developer. I like the idea. For it to work, the person would have to be willing to work for a small percentage of sales because paying them even minimum wage at 20 hours a week would likely be too costly. Time wise it really wouldn't be worth it. Let's do some napkin math! :mrgreen:

Why not a small 'Flat Fee'. Palladium Books state that they are lazy, and they pay their writers 10 dollars a typeset page per printed book. So your talking a writer is getting about 3 to 4k per book that's published. A line editor would probably get something in the same ball park.


We disagree on what a line editor is vs a line developer. I would say that granting "creative control" means that person would be a developer... When you say line editor I understand that literally as a person who would edit. I don't have a lot of knowledge about editors but I know most, even in a semi-pro capacity wouldn't work for less than 2-4 cents per word. Corny as it sounds, I talked to a guy, who knows a gal that edited material for a big (Standard Non-Fiction) publisher on the side; she said she was making 6-7 cents (depending on length) a word, just to edit.

So based on what you note... As I said (my guess) is it's about $. If you have a guy writing a book at 1 and 1/10 a cent, that's one cost. If you have another guy willing to edit the book (whatever that would cost) that's another cost. Currently Kevin handles that. Say both of these folks are willing to work for 1 and 1/10 cent... That doubles the cost of the writing, for Palladium.

It's not just about the writer getting x amount of dollars for producing a book. it's about the time it actually takes to write that book and if it is worth it for the writer.

There are a lot of elements to consider when writing/editing RPG material, especially in the Megaversal. It's not as straightforward as writing an essay or writing a story... It's one part creative. One part technical (stat blocks). To do it well, you have to know the system better than you do, to play or GM. Plus there are a lot of inconsistences with Palladium's system which doesn't do a writer any favors.
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Tiree »

There definitely are three things within this that Kevin does: Develops, Edits, and Writes

Most of the writers for Palladium are Freelance. When Palladium does process more through their stable, it's when they have an 'In-House' writer like Jason Marker and Mathew Clements on staff. What I envision the Line Editor to do, is set a vision for the Line (Work with writers to get that vision), Edit the Manuscripts, and Publish.

There are three things I am assuming: Sales on par with current numbers. Kevin has always stated that 96 page splat books are more successful/profitable than a 300 page book. I think there are quite a number of factors that make that truly the case.

The second is that the Line Editor is not going to massively rewrite a manuscript (which has happened by Kevin)

Lastly the Line Editor is a fan of the material, and are doing it more for the love of writing/editing than they are doing this as a professional writer. In most cases, most of the former stable of writers, did exactly this. They were fans, wrote a book, wrote several more, then got picked up or made their own company.
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Hotrod »

Well, if it makes you Fantasy fans feel any better, Palladium will have one new Fantasy product out this year. Prints of my Eastern Territory map will be available for the Christmas packages. The final version should be complete and to Kevin around the end of this month, so it should be available for folks in December and January if they do the usual extension.
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Panomas II »

Tiree wrote:There definitely are three things within this that Kevin does: Develops, Edits, and Writes

Most of the writers for Palladium are Freelance. When Palladium does process more through their stable, it's when they have an 'In-House' writer like Jason Marker and Mathew Clements on staff. What I envision the Line Editor to do, is set a vision for the Line (Work with writers to get that vision), Edit the Manuscripts, and Publish.

There are three things I am assuming: Sales on par with current numbers. Kevin has always stated that 96 page splat books are more successful/profitable than a 300 page book. I think there are quite a number of factors that make that truly the case.

The second is that the Line Editor is not going to massively rewrite a manuscript (which has happened by Kevin)

Lastly the Line Editor is a fan of the material, and are doing it more for the love of writing/editing than they are doing this as a professional writer. In most cases, most of the former stable of writers, did exactly this. They were fans, wrote a book, wrote several more, then got picked up or made their own company.


You say line editor... I say line developer... Potato Potatoes' :mrgreen:
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Tiree »

Panomas II wrote:You say line editor... I say line developer... Potato Potatoes' :mrgreen:

Which is probably the case.

Do I expect Palladium to gush with money for someone? No, they never really have. But what I can see is that they give the person a pittance, and a chance to shape a world that they love.

Given the opportunity, I'd probably do exactly that for Robotech. I'm sure some other massive fans out there would do the same.

Heck - I have offered to go through their skills, rewrite them all, just so that the bonuses provided are identical in every skill. Just because some skills provide x% to y skill. And other skills state if you have x skill get y%
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Panomas II »

Tiree wrote:
Panomas II wrote:You say line editor... I say line developer... Potato Potatoes' :mrgreen:

Which is probably the case.

Do I expect Palladium to gush with money for someone? No, they never really have. But what I can see is that they give the person a pittance, and a chance to shape a world that they love.

Given the opportunity, I'd probably do exactly that for Robotech. I'm sure some other massive fans out there would do the same.

Heck - I have offered to go through their skills, rewrite them all, just so that the bonuses provided are identical in every skill. Just because some skills provide x% to y skill. And other skills state if you have x skill get y%


Amen to that.

Rifts Ultimate Edition could have really re-invigorated the line. Instead it just bogged it down further. There are so many things... (deep breath...)
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Re: Bad News for PF fans...

Unread post by Sureshot »

As much as I don't like it I understand why Rifts gets the lion share of development and production. That being said though if their other rpg lines begin to suffer because of it it's no fault but their own. I don't want to see or hear them blame something else. If a rpg lines gets no support it begins to stagnant. I don't need multiple copies of say the Old Ones Sourcebook. They can't have it both ways. Support Mostly Rifts yet have their other rpg lines be more profitable.
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