MDC to SDC

[Grimaold]

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this question, I'm new at this.
Is there a book that covers what happens when MDC equipment is brought into an SDC world?
I know that it has been covered for "living" things like characters, gods, demons, ext..
It has also been stated that some one coming from an SDC world to an MDC world would want to upgrade quickly.
Dose that mean that say if a Coalition Deadboy got Rifted to Gramercy Island he would be just about unstoppable, except for magic and psychic, seeing as he has armor with 50+ MDC which is equal to 5000+ SDC that can even be harmed by anything less than anti-tank weapons and weapons that do at the low end 2 MD which is 200 SDC each time they hit.
Except for the running out of ammo limitation, how else do you address the fact that beings from Rifts Earth are more than capable of getting to the SDC worlds with hand held weapons that can destroy cities in a day?

[drewkitty ~..~]

The Rifts Conversion Book 1.

Note, it is all generalized, nothing specific.

EDIT: and RCB1r and the RDB7: MB

[kaid]

The megaverse creation book that talks about creating dealing with other dimensions also has a lot of rules for what tech works in what types of dimensions and how it is effected.

[ShadowLogan]

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this question, I'm new at this.
Is there a book that covers what happens when MDC equipment is brought into an SDC world?
I know that it has been covered for "living" things like characters, gods, demons, ext..
It has also been stated that some one coming from an SDC world to an MDC world would want to upgrade quickly.
Dose that mean that say if a Coalition Deadboy got Rifted to Gramercy Island he would be just about unstoppable, except for magic and psychic, seeing as he has armor with 50+ MDC which is equal to 5000+ SDC that can even be harmed by anything less than anti-tank weapons and weapons that do at the low end 2 MD which is 200 SDC each time they hit.
Except for the running out of ammo limitation, how else do you address the fact that beings from Rifts Earth are more than capable of getting to the SDC worlds with hand held weapons that can destroy cities in a day?

MDC tech would be converted down to SDC. As mentioned CB1o/r covers this in a broad sense, the only area I've found lacking is the AR assignment it is to fluid IMHO.

Even assuming the MDC tech stays MDC in an SDC world the CS Deadboy wouldn't be unstoppable, they might be limited in hurting the actual armor, but they still have options like holds, grapples. They can trap/pin the target, physics can still be used to knock the target around (armor doesn't prevent you from being knocked off your feet from explosion), and so on. Heroes unlimited as Invulnerable Supers running around, but they aren't unstoppable, it just takes a different approach.

[Grimaold]

Thanks everyone, for taking the time to try and help me out. I have CB1 (printed in 1994) and it is vague about going from MDC to SDC, that said I like ShadowLogan's solution of using the basics of physics to level the playing field. Is there an updated CB1?

[Grimaold]

Kaid what is the title of the book you are talking about?

[Zer0 Kay]

Remember if the presence of a MD capable weapon makes the world MDC then N&S is an MDC world because of the vehicle stopper. And depending if you treat N&S like it is linked directly with other games then in your game those other games would be too.

[ShadowLogan]

Thanks everyone, for taking the time to try and help me out. I have CB1 (printed in 1994) and it is vague about going from MDC to SDC, that said I like ShadowLogan's solution of using the basics of physics to level the playing field. Is there an updated CB1?

I don't have the CB1 from 1994, I have the revised edition (I know it cut out RT and moved some stuff to other books). I'm not sure if that CB1r is any better than CB1o with going from MDC to SDC.

It isn't necessarily my solution, it is a solution that is presented in Heroes Unlimited for dealing with concept characters like that, which would still apply to MDC.

Kaid is referring to the Rifts Dimension Book 7: Megaversal Builder
https://palladium-store.com/1001/produc ... ilder.html

[Grimaold]

Thanks again guys,
For helping out an out of date oldtimer/computer noob(is this the right term?).
How about Chi? Would you have it be separate from P.P.E/I.S.P.? What is the cannon on this? Where should I look?

[eliakon]

Thanks again guys,
For helping out an out of date oldtimer/computer noob(is this the right term?).
How about Chi? Would you have it be separate from P.P.E/I.S.P.? What is the cannon on this? Where should I look?

The answer is "this is a hotly debated topic" (VERY hotly debated. Especially between those who see all the books as one huge megaversal set and that every book is canon for every other book (AKA the Megaversalists) and those who see each game line as a separate game that his canon unto itself and is a source of ideas to be imported as desired (AKA the Lineists). While the end result is often the same the way it gets there is not....and it is very important to understand which stance your GM is taking and your game will be using as they end up having some very significant differences.)
In general it seems that if you are from N&SS and have CHI then it is a third energy stat. it is not converted and just kept as is. If you are from any of the other lines they use Other Stuff for Chi and it is not CHI.
The only canon, such as it is, on this is in the Conversion Book.

In general though it would be a good idea for the GM to decide in advance if they want to incorporate CHI in their games before hand, as if you are going to do so you need to make a LOT of decisions, rulings, and adjustments through out to accommodate it. Changes that the players should know in advance as it will radically alter the dynamics of how things go.

[Grimaold]

Thanks eliakon,
The reason I asked about Chi was I'm working out of really old books for the most part, N&SS from 1989, and only a few new books. I'm trying to get am idea of which new ones I must have to start running games again.
In the edition I got it only talks about adding Chi to characters in the fantasy game, but it does say "most characters will have a normal amount of Chi", this is why I was thinking of keeping that for all worlds. Yes that make more work for me, but it can be worth it.

[eliakon]

Thanks eliakon,
The reason I asked about Chi was I'm working out of really old books for the most part, N&SS from 1989, and only a few new books. I'm trying to get am idea of which new ones I must have to start running games again.
In the edition I got it only talks about adding Chi to characters in the fantasy game, but it does say "most characters will have a normal amount of Chi", this is why I was thinking of keeping that for all worlds. Yes that make more work for me, but it can be worth it.

If your going to add it to the game it can be fun. Just be aware of a couple things before hand.
1) Figure out in advance how you want Chi/Psionics/Magic to interface with each other. This is really important because of stuff like Dim Mak....what sort of healing magic can cure it is going to be critical. (Mystic China explores Chi Magic and would be a good look)

2) Figure out what the Chi alignment of beings will be. Are your demons going to be positive or negative? This is very important especially when you get into things like Gargoyles and other sub-demons.

3) You will want to figure out what sorts of Chi abilities to give the beings in your game. It seems....unlikely that only human martial artists would have these powers that make their foes helpless.....and that no demons, or dragons, or gods, or other monsters would have any of them. Especially since in Asian myth the source of much of the mysticism is dragons and gods in the first place.....

4) Be aware at the start that you will have some teething problems. The powers in N&SS can allow some very incredible feats.....and if the advanced abilities from Mystic China are added to the mix it becomes possible to do some truly amazing things to foes, some of which seem to have no defense. And not just Chi. On Life, On Hit...... can be combined with the weapons in Rifts to do some truly nasty things.....

5) Have Fun

[Talon Starblade]

Getting back on the original topic, what are some of the conversion methods on say armors?

For instance: A CS Soldier in a CA-1 Heavy suit with all of it's 80MDC main body (not gonna list the rest), lands in Century City. Culture shock aside, he mistakes a Mega-brawl for a DB conflict. So he obeys his training: He starts shooting. Thanks to the laws of physics (thank you CB1) his 4d6 energy rifle has all the impact power of a heavy pistol round... Which against these mutants hardly scratched them, but it sure got their attention. Then one counter strikes with his own energy blast. Like with the blaster, to his shock his armor is not handling the damage as well as it should be. But here begets the question:

What's the armor rating (AR) of this dimensionally tweeked armor? Does it just take the hit, given that every square inch of his body is completely shielded by the armor (no AR at all), or did the universe give him some advantage for advanced materials (aka, boosted sdc, or perhaps even assigning a vehicle type AR, like natural AR? Or maybe even both?)

I've been wondering on this idea for a long time, I just never had enough crossover between the games to actually need to ask.

[ShadowLogan]

AR is one area where the CB1r conversion is a bit loose IMHO because it doesn't necessarily give exacting numbers in some cases, but rather a range (and in the case of creatures no guideline on when their AR might be better) .

So that CS Deadboy would still get an AR, but off hand it might be in a "range" so the GM would have to pick a value in that range. Though some items IIRC are more direct, but others aren't.

[Alrik Vas]

So physics doesn't apply in HU. That's not surprising...at all.

There are energy weapons in HU for infantry use that deal far more than 4d6 that wouldn't become mega-damage in rifts. With all the ways supers would have aside damage to stop someone with MDC armor and rifle, it just seems ridiculous to me.

[eliakon]

So physics doesn't apply in HU. That's not surprising...at all.

There are energy weapons in HU for infantry use that deal far more than 4d6 that wouldn't become mega-damage in rifts. With all the ways supers would have aside damage to stop someone with MDC armor and rifle, it just seems ridiculous to me.

"Physics" Applies in HU as much as it applies in any of the games.
It is just the that the armor and weapons were designed using different laws of physics.
In some dimensions there is a 'mega-damage property' that can be exploited. Some of the most advanced armors and weapons are built utilizing this amazing physical property to allow some amazing effects. But if that property doesn't exist in a dimension then something that exploits it wont do anything. This is also why heavy duty military weapons in HU convert over to SDC.....

There is nothing stopping a GM from adjusting things to be different if they want....

[Alrik Vas]

That's the book explanation basically, which is exactly what's bothersome.

[eliakon]

That's the book explanation basically, which is exactly what's bothersome.

Since there is no other explanation that even remotely pretend to make more sense it is sort of the only one that works.
Since this is how the universe works according to the fictional meta-setting material that the entire game is built around though, it is convenient that the game engine is modeled to replicate this behavior (the in universe 'true physics') rather than something else (which would be, in universe, 'false' physics)

[jaymz]

If you are looking to play Rifts as SDC just multiple y all MD/MDC by 5 and that will give you a decent quickie conversion

A samas will be on par with an 20th century tank while its rail gun wil do 5d4x10 on a burst. A Glitterboy will have x3 the "armour"of a tank and the boomgun wil do 3d6x50 or about eaul to a main battle tank cannon. Something more...standard for Robots like the Enforcer ends up doing 5d6x10 with its railgun and having more armour than a main battle tank but not too much more. It puts the Body armour similar to full suit hard armour but better just give it similar AR. personal weapons are on par with 12/7mm/.50 cal rounds or so.

It is simple and it works out pretty damned well.

[Alrik Vas]

That's the book explanation basically, which is exactly what's bothersome.

Since there is no other explanation that even remotely pretend to make more sense it is sort of the only one that works.
Since this is how the universe works according to the fictional meta-setting material that the entire game is built around though, it is convenient that the game engine is modeled to replicate this behavior (the in universe 'true physics') rather than something else (which would be, in universe, 'false' physics)

It's consistent with itself in a way, but that doesn't make it worth using to me. The explanation seems too ridiculous, the results from crossing worlds too nonsensical. I toss the whole thing out unless the alternate dimension is demonstrably different in its physical properties.

[eliakon]

That's the book explanation basically, which is exactly what's bothersome.

Since there is no other explanation that even remotely pretend to make more sense it is sort of the only one that works.
Since this is how the universe works according to the fictional meta-setting material that the entire game is built around though, it is convenient that the game engine is modeled to replicate this behavior (the in universe 'true physics') rather than something else (which would be, in universe, 'false' physics)

It's consistent with itself in a way, but that doesn't make it worth using to me. The explanation seems too ridiculous, the results from crossing worlds too nonsensical. I toss the whole thing out unless the alternate dimension is demonstrably different in its physical properties.

Your welcome to rewrite the entire game physics for your home rules sure...
*shrug* knock yourself out. I am just pointing out what the assumptions are that are used for writing the fiction that is 'Palladium' It may not be a setting you like, but it happens to be what is. Just like I don't like the idea of faster than light travel in physical space, when I read Lensmen books I know it will be there because that is part of the setting.

[Alrik Vas]

I carry a club just for such a purpose of knocking myself out when I come across rules that don't work for me.

Hard to be equivalent to a 20th century tank when you count as wearing plastic with a rifle sized .45, eh?

[Killer Cyborg]

The explanation seems too ridiculous, the results from crossing worlds too nonsensical. I toss the whole thing out unless the alternate dimension is demonstrably different in its physical properties.

Right.

Originally, Magic being mega-damage was due to the increased ley line activity and such from the apocalypse, and technology being mega-damage was because it was really high-tech.

The whole "some worlds are Mega-Damage and some aren't" nonsense came about from trying to keep players with Mega-Damage from going to Palladium Fantasy World and shooting up the place.

[eliakon]

The explanation seems too ridiculous, the results from crossing worlds too nonsensical. I toss the whole thing out unless the alternate dimension is demonstrably different in its physical properties.

Right.

Originally, Magic being mega-damage was due to the increased ley line activity and such from the apocalypse, and technology being mega-damage was because it was really high-tech.

The whole "some worlds are Mega-Damage and some aren't" nonsense came about from trying to keep players with Mega-Damage from going to Palladium Fantasy World and shooting up the place.

I wouldn't call it nonsense. It makes perfect sense.
If the world supports Megadamage, then Megadamage can exist.
How you get to that Megadamage is important. If the worlds magic levels are high enough you can use mystical means to achieve it. Otherwise you will have to use technology for Megadamage since magic will be SDC
This neatly explains every single game world in the system.....
Rifts MD world, High magic: Both Tech and Magic do MD
PF SD world, high magic: Both Tech and Magic do SD
BtS SD World, low magic: Both Tech and Magic do SD
Splicers MD world, low magic: Tech does MD, Magic does SD

Of course you can make things vastly more complicated by making up a custom conversion formula for each and every dimension for each an every item, power and spell if you like.....

[flatline]

Simple house rules that worked for us:

1 mdc = 3 sdc
Any SDC weapon attacking a MD object subtracts 10 from the damage rolled before calculating damage done.

MD and MDC still awesome compared to SDC, but SDC is still useful against MD.

[Killer Cyborg]

The explanation seems too ridiculous, the results from crossing worlds too nonsensical. I toss the whole thing out unless the alternate dimension is demonstrably different in its physical properties.

Right.

Originally, Magic being mega-damage was due to the increased ley line activity and such from the apocalypse, and technology being mega-damage was because it was really high-tech.

The whole "some worlds are Mega-Damage and some aren't" nonsense came about from trying to keep players with Mega-Damage from going to Palladium Fantasy World and shooting up the place.

I wouldn't call it nonsense. It makes perfect sense.
If the world supports Megadamage, then Megadamage can exist.
How you get to that Megadamage is important. If the worlds magic levels are high enough you can use mystical means to achieve it. Otherwise you will have to use technology for Megadamage since magic will be SDC
This neatly explains every single game world in the system.....
Rifts MD world, High magic: Both Tech and Magic do MD
PF SD world, high magic: Both Tech and Magic do SD
BtS SD World, low magic: Both Tech and Magic do SD
Splicers MD world, low magic: Tech does MD, Magic does SD

Of course you can make things vastly more complicated by making up a custom conversion formula for each and every dimension for each an every item, power and spell if you like.....

Except that it's only some tech and some magic (and some powers, and some psionics, etc.) that becomes MD, with no real pattern.
Non sense.

It's also a blatant attempt at balance from a company that likes to pretend that they don't care about balance.

[Alrik Vas]

The explanation seems too ridiculous, the results from crossing worlds too nonsensical. I toss the whole thing out unless the alternate dimension is demonstrably different in its physical properties.

Right.

Originally, Magic being mega-damage was due to the increased ley line activity and such from the apocalypse, and technology being mega-damage was because it was really high-tech.

The whole "some worlds are Mega-Damage and some aren't" nonsense came about from trying to keep players with Mega-Damage from going to Palladium Fantasy World and shooting up the place.

I wouldn't call it nonsense. It makes perfect sense.
If the world supports Megadamage, then Megadamage can exist.
How you get to that Megadamage is important. If the worlds magic levels are high enough you can use mystical means to achieve it. Otherwise you will have to use technology for Megadamage since magic will be SDC
This neatly explains every single game world in the system.....
Rifts MD world, High magic: Both Tech and Magic do MD
PF SD world, high magic: Both Tech and Magic do SD
BtS SD World, low magic: Both Tech and Magic do SD
Splicers MD world, low magic: Tech does MD, Magic does SD

Of course you can make things vastly more complicated by making up a custom conversion formula for each and every dimension for each an every item, power and spell if you like.....

The point you seem to not grasp is that conversion formulas aren't necessary. Magic/Psionics changing to MDC or SDC depending on ley line surging is something that makes sense in the setting.

Technology changing depending on "we don't think it's fair to have MDC in an SDC setting" is just changes on a meta level disguised with a pathetically thin veil of, "buy this book for an explanation." It makes no real sense.

[Prysus]

The point you seem to not grasp is that conversion formulas aren't necessary. Magic/Psionics changing to MDC or SDC depending on ley line surging is something that makes sense in the setting.

Technology changing depending on "we don't think it's fair to have MDC in an SDC setting" is just changes on a meta level disguised with a pathetically thin veil of, "buy this book for an explanation." It makes no real sense.

Greetings and Salutations. I'll start by saying: I agree with you in principle. Now, with that said, even what you said isn't really accurate: "Magic/Psionics changing to MDC or SDC depending on ley line surging is something that makes sense in the setting." It does make sense, if that rule/concept was actually applied to the setting. This is something that's mentioned in the Rifts main book, I believe. That this great magical energy allows for M.D. from magic and psionics, while also being the reason so many powerful beings are attracted to the area, etc.

However, it stopped applying to Rifts long ago. This is why every book with the word "Rifts" on it still has magic M.D.C., even in other dimensions that don't (or at least shouldn't) have Rifts Earth levels of power from ley lines, etc. It's something that applies to one world, not something that expands across the entire universe and every dimension remotely connected to it ... otherwise that would make Rifts Earth extremely generic in the Megaverse. That's not the case, or at least not supposed to be. This is why magic and supernatural beings continue to be M.D.C. in Phase World, Three Galaxies, space in general, etc. The concept of magic doing M.D. because of high levels of ley line energy stopped being true a very long time ago.

Now, from a playability stand point, reducing magic (and even demons and such) to S.D.C. levels on Phase World would fit the concept, but would probably make a lot of players angry because their magic users or psychics just became useless (note: I don't actually think they'd be useless, but it would be a common complaint all the same). Heck, the whole Minion War just became pretty boring in Phase World. Also, it takes away part of that aspect many people love, that you can be just about anything. By making technology (and only technology) consistently M.D.C. levels, it makes aspects such as magic less appealing and kind of forces people to rely more and more on tech. So, in many ways, I think they need to apply those M.D.C. levels to magic and supernatural from a marketing standpoint, even if it doesn't mesh with the original concept. And once they start applying M.D.C. levels to things that shouldn't have them, all that logic you tried to argue gets thrown out the window and something new needs to be figured out.

So while I agree with the logic that M.D.C. technology shouldn't mysteriously cease being effective, that's only addressing half of the actual problem. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Alrik Vas]

I see your point. Though how does magic deal mega damage in rifts earth? Did it change from SDC to MDC with the surging of ley lines, or was it always MDC because of the dimension that earth exists in? Think about the effect that would have on history.

[Prysus]

I see your point. Though how does magic deal mega damage in rifts earth? Did it change from SDC to MDC with the surging of ley lines, or was it always MDC because of the dimension that earth exists in? Think about the effect that would have on history.

Greetings and Salutations. Sure, and think on this. Ley Line Energy on the Palladium World is currently 60% less than Rifts Earth, so a little less than half. So being just a little more than two times as powerful changes S.D.C. to M.D.C. Now, during the Age of Chaos, Ley Line Energy was "easily" (so it could be even higher) "ten times more powerful than Rifts Earth" (PF2, page 277) So magic energy was 10x more beefed up than the energy giving M.D.C. If Ley Line Energy is the only decider, than we're probably talking G.D.C., or maybe even T.D.C. (though the latter might still be unlikely). And yet, for some odd reason, BOTH sides were busy recruiting (and/or creating through magic) S.D.C. melee warriors. They didn't have technology (at least not to a degree to be of significance when dealing with M.D.C. or greater), so basically a S.D.C. warrior is a S.D.C. warrior. I'm not sure about you, but I think that would also have an effect on history as well. Farewell and safe journeys.

[jaymz]

The problem with that prysus is that technology is not affected by ley line energy so using an sdc world as comparison fails to explain why an md rifle is only sd in sdc worlds. The whole "dimensional matrix" is a hand wave with real thought put into it at all. The entire thing makes so called high technology inferior the sdc technology in the sdc world they go too.

Now i get it. It is to maintain balance. Fine. But just have it not work or sone formula that makes it make sense. As it stands it makes zero sense on the technology side.

[Prysus]

The problem with that prysus is that technology is not affected by ley line energy so using an sdc world as comparison fails to explain why an md rifle is only sd in sdc worlds. The whole "dimensional matrix" is a hand wave with real thought put into it at all. The entire thing makes so called high technology inferior the sdc technology in the sdc world they go too.

Now i get it. It is to maintain balance. Fine. But just have it not work or sone formula that makes it make sense. As it stands it makes zero sense on the technology side.

Greetings and Salutations. Except you didn't bother explaining why magic does M.D.C. without Rifts Earth energy either (see my first post). And while I agree with the MD weapon becoming inferior is bad design, I think my biggest disagreement with both of you stands at the concept the somehow Rifts makes sense otherwise, that somehow Rifts isn't inconsistent and/or contradicting otherwise, and runs smoothly without this one little snag.

I have no issues with a better conversion rate, or even leaving M.D.C. technology M.D.C. in S.D.C. worlds. However, focusing only on how technology is altered for balance and that makes it stupid ... ignores that magic is altered for balance, except it tends to get quietly swept under the rug for convenience. Pretending it only affects technology is a falsehood. If the stance someone wants to take is that the conversion of M.D.C. and S.D.C. doesn't make sense ... AT ALL. I could get on board with that.

Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[jaymz]

Oh i fully agree magic "level" is a reasonable explanation for mdc magic (and psionics). Its the lack of due diligence on the rest that makes it problematic.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, phase world setting caused a lot of this. They wanted magic to work vs mdc, but neglected to think that if they just made it all SDC, then there wouldn't be necessary changes.

[eliakon]

Yeah, phase world setting caused a lot of this. They wanted magic to work vs mdc, but neglected to think that if they just made it all SDC, then there wouldn't be necessary changes.

That and the fact that the Palladium World is supposed to have a high level of magic....
Then there is the Robotech universe which has MDC magic (and pushes the envelope back to 1987 only four years after Rifts came out in the first place)
So if this was ever the official reason....it was very short lived.

This to me suggests that the 'magic is what caused the MDC' lasted until they realized all the problems this posed. And then simply went with "MDC causes MDC" Which has the elegance of being much simpler, being reflexively true, and allows for them to then vary what does or does not have MDC based on the desired outcomes for the game...
Thus we end up with the Splicers world.

[Alrik Vas]

Disagree. There isn't much at all elegant about the meta hand wave in Palladium.

[Axelmania]

The explanation seems too ridiculous, the results from crossing worlds too nonsensical. I toss the whole thing out unless the alternate dimension is demonstrably different in its physical properties.

Right.

Originally, Magic being mega-damage was due to the increased ley line activity and such from the apocalypse, and technology being mega-damage was because it was really high-tech.

The whole "some worlds are Mega-Damage and some aren't" nonsense came about from trying to keep players with Mega-Damage from going to Palladium Fantasy World and shooting up the place.

Should have taken a page out of Nighbane. If the Nightlords can create a tech-destroying dimensional barrier I think the deities of the Palladium World could manage it.

Maybe the Minion War could explain the Lords doing this for HU. Prior to Armageddon Unlimited I couldn't come up with an explanation for it.

Dead Reign could have such a barrier put up by Brulyx.

System Failure might not need it since the bugs could just inhabit your MD tech.

Beyond the Supernatural... any powerful mages to put up a barrier there?