Dear PB

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:33 pm

I'm very disappointed at the way the RRT kickstarter has been run. Wayne promised better communications and so far nothing but silence. It's also disappointing at the cavalier attitude towards ALL customer input. The way the spartan and other models have been split seems very unappealing to the eye unless covered up. With all due respect a simple coat of paint isn't enough. Due to how late the project is and the lack of quality in many of the models a few extra YF-4 sprues would go a long way into appeasing your backers.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:40 pm

I agree with most of your points and agree that a few extra bits at this point may assuage some of the hurt feelings of the people feeling mislead and bothered by the delays.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:42 pm

A YF-4 Squad would be a good START.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:06 pm

Cthulhu Wars did something along these lines, and while I agree that a little 'sweetening of the deal' wouldn't go unappreciated, a bit part of the understanding I've seen in general from their backers has also, imo, been tied to the fairly solid communications they have with said community.

A tangible show of appreciation would be nice, so would significant improvement in the quality of communications/updates (the quantity was roughly 1 a week, nowadays 1 per 2 weeks, both of which are fine in my eyes, but many of them were 'hey, here's a pic, see you in a week' variety). Xia also does an amazing job, and far as I'm aware, both of those projects have equal or smaller teams doing work than PB (with or without support from ND. Hell, Xia is one dude!)

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:08 pm

I mean if Kevin added extras to NG-2 to make up for the delays/shenanigans, then a free YF-4 squad would be nice.

Asterios · Unread post by **Asterios** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:09 pm

Forar wrote:Cthulhu Wars did something along these lines, and while I agree that a little 'sweetening of the deal' wouldn't go unappreciated, a bit part of the understanding I've seen in general from their backers has also, imo, been tied to the fairly solid communications they have with said community.

A tangible show of appreciation would be nice, so would significant improvement in the quality of communications/updates (the quantity was roughly 1 a week, nowadays 1 per 2 weeks, both of which are fine in my eyes, but many of them were 'hey, here's a pic, see you in a week' variety). Xia also does an amazing job, and far as I'm aware, both of those projects have equal or smaller teams doing work than PB (with or without support from ND. Hell, Xia is one dude!)

and yet Xia can still find time to let his backers know whats up, so far if it wasn't Palladium books 100% of the backers of this project would be claiming fraud. what does that tell you?

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:22 pm

Kryptt wrote:I mean if Kevin added extras to NG-2 to make up for the delays/shenanigans, then a free YF-4 squad would be nice.

again it doesn't sound like a bad idea and I have a feeling those extras were gonna be there in NG-2 all along as Chuck Walton turned in the art for the stuff he is talking about before we were there to see it last May in 2013.

The Galactus Kid · Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:54 pm

Asterios wrote: if it wasn't Palladium books 100% of the backers of this project would be claiming fraud. what does that tell you?

Seriously? I've contributed to a bunch of kickstarters before that have gone MONTHS without updates. You feel secure in saying that 100% of the backers would claim fraud because of this? You are grossly mistaken, and again have displayed a poor grasp of statistics.

Asterios · Unread post by **Asterios** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:58 pm

The Galactus Kid wrote:
Asterios wrote: if it wasn't Palladium books 100% of the backers of this project would be claiming fraud. what does that tell you?

Seriously? I've contributed to a bunch of kickstarters before that have gone MONTHS without updates. You feel secure in saying that 100% of the backers would claim fraud because of this? You are grossly mistaken, and again have displayed a poor grasp of statistics.

Really? and are they this late? and started off with telling us backers lies while the kickstarter was running? remember Palladium told us the project was almost done, while the kickstarter was running, and here we are a year later and still not even close to being done, anywhoo lets say 95% then.

The Galactus Kid · Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:03 pm

Asterios wrote: anywhoo lets say 95% then.

Also a made-up number.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:07 pm

Kinda like how 90% of statistics are made up 98% of the time.

The Galactus Kid · Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:10 pm

Jorel wrote:Kinda like how 90% of statistics are made up 98% of the time.

Actually, exactly like that.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:13 pm

Unfortunately the 98% complete and ready for production that RRT was claimed to be before the KS began is looking just as made up right about now.

Asterios · Unread post by **Asterios** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:18 pm

The Galactus Kid wrote:
Asterios wrote: anywhoo lets say 95% then.

Also a made-up number.

would you like to back a project? want to build a trans dimensional tunnel, always looking for suckers err I mean backers.

Asterios · Unread post by **Asterios** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:48 pm

Ninjabunny wrote:I hope that you are riding ninja division this hard. I know backers are pissed off and are right to be but making up numbers to how your anger doesn't help your cause it makes you look like a fool and a jack ass. Not saying you are just that the post I have seen from you are more about jumping down palladium a throat (which they have earned) but I haven't heard anything about ninja divisions need up in this whole thing. (Also thanks a lot for breaking my attempt at avoiding the FOTM)

Problem is Ninja has been steering clear of this project, and any requests for information from them is directed to Palladium books, right now the consensus on the backer forums is that Ninja has been removed from the project (and is even distancing themselves from the project), since they are not even advertising it or promoting it at conventions, even ones where Palladium has no presence at.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:55 pm

Ninjabunny wrote:I hope that you are riding ninja division this hard. I know backers are pissed off and are right to be but making up numbers to how anger others are doesn't help your cause it makes you look like a fool and a jack ass. Not saying you are just that the post I have seen from you are more about jumping down palladiums throat (which they have earned) but I haven't heard anything about ninja divisions mess up in this whole thing. (Also thanks a lot for breaking my attempt at avoiding the FOTM)

Some backers have tried getting info out of nd. Even NMI has tried getting nd to talk on FB about RRT. Sadly with no results.

MurderCityDisciple · Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:14 am

I was just popping by here and find everything still status quo with PB. :clown:

Weren't both the NG books just weeks away from completion like 2 years ago? :eek:

I didn't hold out much hope that RRT would end up any other way than the way it is. :badbad:

I feel bad for the folks who weren't aware of the way Palladium operates their business and were expecting any semblance of 'professionalism', transparency and attention to customer demand.

They've been doing things 'their' way for a long time and aren't going to be changing any time soon. It's what makes them Palladium.

Good luck

Asterios · Unread post by **Asterios** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:19 am

Ninjabunny wrote:So one group is avoiding everyone and the other is giving half ass updates. Seems to me at least pally is trying to keep people informed. While ND just points at palladium telling people "don't look at us!"
Don't get me wrong I could give a rats ass less if people ride palladiums ass but in the case of RRT (so glad I kept my money away from this) the blame is on two not just one. To me it looks like both companies are just going to pass blame off on the other.

you miss the point Ninja even Palladium said they are the final word, Ninja isn't allowed to say anything except to Palladium themselves.

Asterios · Unread post by **Asterios** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:34 am

Ninjabunny wrote:
Asterios wrote:
Ninjabunny wrote:So one group is avoiding everyone and the other is giving half ass updates. Seems to me at least pally is trying to keep people informed. While ND just points at palladium telling people "don't look at us!"
Don't get me wrong I could give a rats ass less if people ride palladiums ass but in the case of RRT (so glad I kept my money away from this) the blame is on two not just one. To me it looks like both companies are just going to pass blame off on the other.

you miss the point Ninja even Palladium said they are the final word, Ninja isn't allowed to say anything except to Palladium themselves.

I am not messing any points. I am also not creating numbers to up my displeasure with palladium. I still waiting on the northern gun book I backed well before RRT was even mentioned. I am still waiting on my damned BtS books I was promised almost ten years ago, or my LotD 3 book, my old kingdom books yin-sloth 2nd ed, mechiniod space book. Want me to go on about **** I have been waiting on with no update? You wanna talk about being disgruntled, this is the last place to being up a damn miniature game that is getting more attention then books I have been waiting and promised for more then a decade! All the RRT backer are at least getting updates and progress reports no matter how half ass they are, while guys like me are still waiting on books that were supposed to be out with in months of being backed or even worst in the case of beyond the supernatural were promised in writing in the god damn main book to be done with in a few months and we are setting on a ten years!

Did you already pay for these books? I'm curious since it makes me wonder where the money is going if you did pay for these items already.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:38 am

It's why some backers think some RRT money might be used to just keep the lights on, but I doubt that's the case.

Asterios · Unread post by **Asterios** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:49 am

So essentially other then the over 1.4 million they got from Robotech backers and the amount they got from the NG books, it makes one wonder where the money is going, and if we are not all being led by a leash to ultimate failure, think someone needs to seriously look at Palladium's books to see where the money is going since if it is going elsewhere other then the projects they are to go to before the projects have been completed that is considered fraud.

especially if they don't have the funds to complete said projects because the money went elsewhere.

bielmic · Unread post by **bielmic** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:48 am

MurderCityDisciple wrote:I was just popping by here and find everything still status quo with PB.

Weren't both the NG books just weeks away from completion like 2 years ago?

From the July 12th, 2012 NG2 insider offer (NG1 was already running late at that point).

Pg.7

Right now, Palladium’s target is to have NG-1
released in August (or September at the latest) and
NG-2a short month or two afterward. We had hoped to have at least
one out by Gen Con, but that’s not possible. We hope you
understand.

Pg. 10

By now, all of you know all about Rifts® World
Book 34: Northern Gun TWO. It is nearing completion and should go to the
printer in the next 8-10 weeks, and ship a few weeks after that.

http://palladiumbooks.com/index.php?vie ... format=pdf

MurderCityDisciple · Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:20 am

Ayup and weekly update after weekly update of promises of 'epic-ness', coming anytime now...for two years. If it sounds like BS, smells like BS...

Carry on...with what...not sure...waiting? Getting jerked around? Not sure, I guess it's a matter of opinion or how you view fact and reality.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:10 am

Asterios wrote:
Ninjabunny wrote:I hope that you are riding ninja division this hard. I know backers are pissed off and are right to be but making up numbers to how your anger doesn't help your cause it makes you look like a fool and a jack ass. Not saying you are just that the post I have seen from you are more about jumping down palladium a throat (which they have earned) but I haven't heard anything about ninja divisions need up in this whole thing. (Also thanks a lot for breaking my attempt at avoiding the FOTM)

Problem is Ninja has been steering clear of this project, and any requests for information from them is directed to Palladium books, right now the consensus on the backer forums is that Ninja has been removed from the project (and is even distancing themselves from the project), since they are not even advertising it or promoting it at conventions, even ones where Palladium has no presence at.

@Ricks News, you need to stop making up and spreading these lies. It is obnoxious to say the least and very offensive. Ninjas have not been removed from anything. Stop trying to create more negative rumors. And stop saying other people when it is pretty much only you doing it.

Unread post by **NMI** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:22 am

I have emailed Palladium and asked them to respond.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:49 am

Least there is some hope of one of the staff there chiming in on this topic. Thanks for that Nmi.

Mike1975 · Unread post by **Mike1975** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:57 am

Asterios wrote:So essentially other then the over 1.4 million they got from Robotech backers and the amount they got from the NG books, it makes one wonder where the money is going, and if we are not all being led by a leash to ultimate failure, think someone needs to seriously look at Palladium's books to see where the money is going since if it is going elsewhere other then the projects they are to go to before the projects have been completed that is considered fraud.

especially if they don't have the funds to complete said projects because the money went elsewhere.

What I've learned from this
1. The 24 or so like minded people are in fact LEGION. In reality if you do multiply them by 20 you are still below 10% of the Backers, sorry, but it is true. If you assume there are 40x as many that are silent, you still have less than 20% of the total backers. Although I readlily admit that these people are growing daily with the lack of updates and flames being fanned by members of the same legion. So both sides have some fault here.
2. They can read minds and know that PB is scamming everyone and planned that from the start.
3. They can also read the PB financial books from afar and know that they are cooked and KS has a house in the Bahamas now thanks to the 1.4 Million from the KS.
4. They have spies and cameras in the PB office and know that they think all the backers are idiots and are lauging maniacally at us.

Which of these statements passes a reality check.......?

Overall PB has had a serious lack of communication with the backers, whether there are internal company issues that are involved and some things cannot be shared or not, a reasonable expectation is to at least update bi-weekly or monthly on progress and plans. Earlier and more detailed communications with the backers could have possibly prevented the problem we have how of an exceedingly high parts count. This is one of the primary griefs that is fueling this fire and will continue to do so.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:08 am

I really do tire of all the drama being propagated by these rumors being started by the same few people. They are all pretty offensive and based in speculation which doesn't even hold up to the least scrutiny. They may be making mistakes, but they are not being fraudulent or buying a house in the Bahamas. That is all ludicrous. They are struggling through a herculean task for them and I believe they are doing the best of their current ability. It may not be to everyone else satisfaction, but I do believe they are trying to get us the product they promised us.

The Galactus Kid · Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:09 am

Jorel wrote:
Asterios wrote:
Ninjabunny wrote:I hope that you are riding ninja division this hard. I know backers are pissed off and are right to be but making up numbers to how your anger doesn't help your cause it makes you look like a fool and a jack ass. Not saying you are just that the post I have seen from you are more about jumping down palladium a throat (which they have earned) but I haven't heard anything about ninja divisions need up in this whole thing. (Also thanks a lot for breaking my attempt at avoiding the FOTM)

Problem is Ninja has been steering clear of this project, and any requests for information from them is directed to Palladium books, right now the consensus on the backer forums is that Ninja has been removed from the project (and is even distancing themselves from the project), since they are not even advertising it or promoting it at conventions, even ones where Palladium has no presence at.

@Ricks News, you need to stop making up and spreading these lies. It is obnoxious to say the least and very offensive. Ninjas have not been removed from anything. Stop trying to create more negative rumors. And stop saying other people when it is pretty much only you doing it.

Thank you Jorel. remind you to give you a heavy pour of bourbon at the OH.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:16 am

Not a big fan of the hard liquor but I'll gladly share some of your bourbon. I know it is your drink of choice.

Maximilian Jenius · Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:17 am

NMI wrote:I have emailed Palladium and asked them to respond.

Wait... I thought we couldn't email palladium? So confused.

I just want to also say that I disagree with asking for freebies to smooth the wrinkles in this kickstarter. There was already accusations during the Max Miria debacle that we wanted free stuff. I personally don't want free stuff, I want what I paid for and Wayne keeping his word about communication and honesty is really the only gesture I would like to see right now.

Mike1975 · Unread post by **Mike1975** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:20 am

Maximilian Jenius wrote:
NMI wrote:I have emailed Palladium and asked them to respond.

Wait... I thought we couldn't email palladium? So confused.

I just want to also say that I disagree with asking for freebies to smooth the wrinkles in this kickstarter. There was already accusations during the Max Miria debacle that we wanted free stuff. I personally don't want free stuff, I want what I paid for and Wayne keeping his word about communication and honesty is really the only gesture I would like to see right now.

Dang, it, no like button in the comments section :mrgreen:

Chronicle · Unread post by **Chronicle** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:28 am

NMI is a moderator. Maybe he can email them. :-)

Unread post by **NMI** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:38 am

I as the head Admin of the forums, have the emails of Kevin, Wayne, Alex and Jeff Burke.

Maximilian Jenius wrote:
NMI wrote:I have emailed Palladium and asked them to respond.

Wait... I thought we couldn't email palladium? So confused.

I just want to also say that I disagree with asking for freebies to smooth the wrinkles in this kickstarter. There was already accusations during the Max Miria debacle that we wanted free stuff. I personally don't want free stuff, I want what I paid for and Wayne keeping his word about communication and honesty is really the only gesture I would like to see right now.

The Galactus Kid · Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:50 am

NMI wrote:I as the head Admin of the forums, have the emails of Kevin, Wayne, Alex and Jeff Burke.

Maximilian Jenius wrote:
NMI wrote:I have emailed Palladium and asked them to respond.

Wait... I thought we couldn't email palladium? So confused.

I just want to also say that I disagree with asking for freebies to smooth the wrinkles in this kickstarter. There was already accusations during the Max Miria debacle that we wanted free stuff. I personally don't want free stuff, I want what I paid for and Wayne keeping his word about communication and honesty is really the only gesture I would like to see right now.

I'm just awesome. No mod powers or banhammer, but still talk with the guys on the regs.

bielmic · Unread post by **bielmic** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:14 am

Maximilian Jenius wrote:
NMI wrote:I have emailed Palladium and asked them to respond.

Wait... I thought we couldn't email palladium? So confused.

I just want to also say that I disagree with asking for freebies to smooth the wrinkles in this kickstarter. There was already accusations during the Max Miria debacle that we wanted free stuff. I personally don't want free stuff, I want what I paid for and Wayne keeping his word about communication and honesty is really the only gesture I would like to see right now.

I also agree with the above. The value was very generous in the pledges offered in the kickstarter. I'd have been a happy camper indeed if palladium had come out with a average quality product in a time frame reasonably close to that which they touted. I'd rather have them concern themselves with completing the project itself rather than trying to figure out if they can afford an even slimmer margin. The problem is that they've already royally screwed the pooch on the time frame and the quality is now in question as well. A free VF-4 sprue would be nice but it also has the potential to backfire as it makes those unhappy with the reasonable expectation of palladium failing to meet their own set goals look like greedy gamers just looking for a handout.

I'd rather have what I paid for and what was advertised. I have very little confidence in Palladium at this point so I can't get behind anything that adds to their burden.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:44 am

So do you feel the backers should get nothing from Palladium for them taking the extra time to deliver something they claimed would be complete last year?

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:11 pm

I mean Kevin himself said the reason NG-2 is delayed, cause he wanted to add extras. I see no reason why a few extras couldn't be thrown our way for being mislead (willfully or not).

Maximilian Jenius · Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:23 pm

If we get something extra for the wait I would prefer it be because Palladium was honestly making an offering of apology. Even if that something is the option of buying the con exlusives from them directly.

Most important however is that they get serious with the communication and start doing what they say.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:25 pm

It is delayed because he couldn't trim down on the number of PAs he had submitted to him. I think he even asked for more art from one of his freelancers who turned him down. I'm pretty sure he had a lot of that art he is basing those stats on for a long time. So he didn't add to it as much as have a hard time slimming it down.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:26 pm

It will be a shame if once again they communicate here instead of on the KS page where people are begging for it and have been for ages now.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:18 pm

I'm surprised there hasn't been a murmur put out yet.

Asterios · Unread post by **Asterios** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:19 pm

I never said PB wasted the money on a bungalow in the bahamas, I just asked where did the money go, as in the money for the Robotech game it has not gone to production yet, nor did it go into design.

as to ND they will tell you they cannot say anything, call Palladium they will tell you any info regarding the game will come from them and them alone.

We were promised a quality game in a certain time span, its seems both these promises are broken, we were promised regular communication, and yet most of the updates to date have been a joke, we had more communication when the kickstarter was going, but since its been over trying to get an update out of Palladium is like pulling teeth.

All we ask is for honesty and regularity, 2 things Palladium has failed to give.

bielmic · Unread post by **bielmic** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:22 pm

Jorel wrote:So do you feel the backers should get nothing from Palladium for them taking the extra time to deliver something they claimed would be complete last year?

I feel that backers aren't owed anything for the delay other than the utmost attention, effort, and honesty from Palladium and Ninja Division to deliver a competently finished product in as timely a manner as possible. If palladium chooses and can afford to throw in a freebie as a nice gesture of good will/apology then I wouldn't refuse it obviously but I won't join in on any "demands" for free stuff. I want Palladium to live up to the expectations/promises that they agreed to.. not pile on even more expectations on a company that is already in way over their heads. YMMV.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:24 pm

Kryptt wrote:I'm surprised there hasn't been a murmur put out yet.

The Murmurs aren't the same as the Press Releases, Kickstarter Updates, the Facebook posts or the posts here on the FotM. Those are just messages he sends out from his desk and no one can respond or comment on them. At least not where Kevin can read them. So they are basically free from the rest of the dialog that would accompany any announcement. The same goes for the Press Releases, except those see a bit more editing and work put into them. That is why we'll see those as the prominent form of communication.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:27 pm

bielmic wrote:
Jorel wrote:So do you feel the backers should get nothing from Palladium for them taking the extra time to deliver something they claimed would be complete last year?

I feel that backers aren't owed anything for the delay other than the utmost attention, effort, and honesty from Palladium and Ninja Division to deliver a competently finished product in as timely a manner as possible. If palladium chooses and can afford to throw in a freebie as a nice gesture of good will/apology then I wouldn't refuse it obviously but I won't join in on any "demands" for free stuff. I want Palladium to live up to the expectations/promises that they agreed to.. not pile on even more expectations on a company that is already in way over their heads. YMMV.

For the record I'm not demanding anything. I simply think it would go a little ways to making some people feel better about the whole mess. I didn't say they shouldn't communicate.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:29 pm

I didn't think it was a valid excuse to say that PB was even later with Northern Gun 1 because they decided to put all the backers name in. That was their decision and it was already late. That was just another excuse they gave at the time and it was insulting. It was late because they plan poorly, not because they added in names of backers.

Asterios · Unread post by **Asterios** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:31 pm

Lets face it Communication has been Palladium's biggest problem, they seriously need to consider getting a PR rep and if they have one, fire them for incompetence.

@Jorel seriously Palladium said they were late with NG-1 because they added a page with a list of the backers to the book ?

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:56 pm

Jorel wrote:I didn't think it was a valid excuse to say that PB was even later with Northern Gun 1 because they decided to put all the backers name in. That was their decision and it was already late. That was just another excuse they gave at the time and it was insulting. It was late because they plan poorly, not because they added in names of backers.

Wait! So NG-1 was said to be delayed because of the backers names being put in the book? With computers that could be handled rather quickly. Sorry I don't buy that excuse. If anything it's just more of PB blaming everyone but themselves for bad business practice and bad managerial decisions. It sounds like the same excuse where Kevin blames the fans for the delay in NG-2, to fatten it up a bit. What I still don't get is if it's ready to go to the printers back in 2012, how come it took two years for it to go to print? And a follow up, if PB can still put out 3 to 4 books a year before and during RRT, where is the fruits of their labor when just about every murmur says their working all these hours 7 days a week? What have they been doing before RRT came into being as their biggest project? I mean 1.4M and PB acts like its nothing. The whole company should make RRT a priority.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:00 pm

Their names were added to the text of the book so yes, it took time to do that, but they were doing it when it was already way past due. First they said they were gonna add people's names in, hence my title as Customer Service Director for Northern Gun. Then at a later point they were saying one of the reasons it was soooo late was because of all the time it took to put those names into the stories and weapons and Robots and such.