I ran a RIFTS game for 10 years exclusively, but I retired it and went to BTS-2 back in '05. So I know it well, but I'm really out of practice. But normally I run a Non-BTS game in the summer as summertime kills the horror vibe. The last few years have been games like Nightbane or Heroes Unlimited. But the group surprised me with another idea of running a summer RIFTS adventure in the Dinosaur Swamps.
Then they surprised me again, by the group all playing humans, a Mind Melter, a Cyber-Doc, a Rouge Scholar... and a Heavy Russian Borg.
I've not had such a gap between power levels before. I want to Borg player to feel challenged, but not at the expense of his otherwise flesh and blood crew. So I've been trying to think on "non-combative" or alternative ways to make life tough for a heavy borg in the Dinosaur Swamps. I've been trying to bone up on Rifts info and the books before Thursday nights game, and I've read about the hazards and the wear and tear of the Dinosaur Swamps, but I thought I should consult players and GM's who are more current with advice as to help make a heavy borgs life as hectic as it will be for a group of flesh and bloods.
Any advice is appreciated.
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Although I have never ran anything in the Dinosaur Swamps, some of the ideas I have used in the past or considered include causing them to confront their loss of humanity. This was one of the foundations of RIFTS as a concept, the improvement of the human body and all the things that are lost with it. Crazies lost their minds, Juicers lost their lives, Power Armour pilots lost their abilities when seperated from their gear, but Cyborgs lose more than everyone else, even though at first it seems they only gain, because they lose their humanity. Their inability to rejoin their fellow man, and the way other humans see them is key. To start, remember that full conversion cyborgs have a poor sense of touch (Russian borgs more so), and their simulated senses are not the same as humans. So, imagine this PC group sitting around a communal fire, learning about and interacting with a village of wilderness people with a unique culture, and how much the cyborg does NOT get out of that. Perhaps they pass around a pipe to smoke, commenting on the subtle flavours. Then handling cloth or material of some kind, perhaps what they use to make their clothes, woven from an alien plant, and discussing it's softness and texture. Maybe explaining to the group how to tell when their meal has been cooked by the aroma, heat, or change in the meat, and then going on to eat said meal, and discussing it's unique flavour.
The Cyborg can probably partake in all of these activities, but won't get much, if anything out of such things. They have given up the ability to do and take pleasure from such simple activities, and have the choice of either faking it, perhaps then accidentaly betraying their inability to their own or someone else' embarassment, or just not trying to take part, and thus coming to the next point, which is interactions with other peoples. Especially wilderness peoples or those from non-tech based cultures are going to be incredibly difficult. They will fear the cyborg character, and probably won't be able to even understand that they ARE human/alive, because in many ways they no longer are. Other characters can put away their tech/gear so as not to scare these peoples, even juicers still look human, and a partial cyborg or Headhunter can conceal their bionics, or still be seen as mostly human, but the Cyborg is what it is, and however the less advanced people think that is, they will probably not think it is human. Because of this, the Cyborg character will have great difficulty interacting with people, especially in cultural ways. Assuming the Cyborg did gain their trust, and was included as a human, perhaps he/it is invited to a ceremony, something to bond the peoples together? Many cultures partake in something like this, perhaps in a 'sweat lodge'? Perhaps a vision quest? Maybe in some type of tribal ceremony? Regardless, the cyborg will see little if anything gained from this participation, perhaps feeling even more alienated at the end, and his potential friends may see their original beliefs reinforced, as even after being included, the Cyborg was unable to take part in this 'human' activity.
Another big one that I have done in the past is interactions with children. The Cyborg has effectively given up on ever having children, and the idea of not being able to have an heir, or help bring life into the world, is very hard for many to understand, especially in the simpler parts of the RIFTS world. A Cyborg may, through great effort, dispell the fear that it's appearance and 'nature' causes, and gain the trust of people, but when it lays it's hand on a pregnant woman's belly, is it even able to feel the gentle movement of the unborn child inside? It's heat censors may indicate the raised body temperature, but does he/it still know what the warmth of life is?
Combat Cyborgs are absolute tanks, they often have more MDC than light to medium power armours before they even wear armour, which is often the equivalent of another suit of power armour over top. They are immune/resistant to many of the hazards of the battlefield/rifts earth, and often as heavily armed as several other normal troopers. There is little they cannot do in a battle, but they give up a HUGE amount for that power, and EVERY Cyborg (player) character should know exactly WHY they gave that all up, it is of incredible importance.
Making that sacrifice for your country, or the future of your people is understandable, and many other cultures will be able to understand the idea of 'suffering' or 'sacrificing' the self to protect others (even if the cyborg does not see it this way), but if a character is a cyborg 'just because', he is a character who has sacrificed his humanity and nearly everything that means either for money, or for power over others, and both of those mean that the character is probably very dangerous, and possibly unhinged. I would not want a walking battle tank coming into my city or near my people if I knew he had become that just so that he could hurt people better.
Take the player aside and talk to him/her about what the rest of the group seems to want. Let them know that you want them to have fun and you're interested in making the game exciting for them, but you don't want to take the rest of the group out of play while he/she wrestles mutant mosoasaurs. Ask them to think about other ways the character can be involved in the session and share some of the character's backstory with you so you can tailor things to involve the whole group without dropping them into a fight that the borg will dominate. Also point out how prohibitively expensive repairs will be in a part of the world that is mostly populated by primitive magic loving mutants. Ask them how they intend to cover the cost. You don't want to be punitive per se, but even with a cyberdoc in the group getting parts and facilities to maintain the character's armor and weaponry could be tough and drive a few sessions.
mrloucifer wrote:I've not had such a gap between power levels before. I want to Borg player to feel challenged, but not at the expense of his otherwise flesh and blood crew. So I've been trying to think on "non-combative" or alternative ways to make life tough for a heavy borg in the Dinosaur Swamps.
Dude... he's a Heavy Russian Borg... in a swamp. Seems like the answer's in the question. Unless he can fly, he's going to be sinking with every step in most places. Even normal people can get stuck in swamp mud, and a Borg? He'll be chest deep or more, if not literally in over his head.
Also, there's the issue of accrued damage. There's not much tech armor-repair in the Dino Swamps. Which means that over time, that Borg's armor is only going to get more and more damaged. The other party members can replace their tech armor with local MDC leather if they need to, but Borgs can't replace damaged body parts that way.
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mrloucifer wrote:I've not had such a gap between power levels before. I want to Borg player to feel challenged, but not at the expense of his otherwise flesh and blood crew. So I've been trying to think on "non-combative" or alternative ways to make life tough for a heavy borg in the Dinosaur Swamps.
Dude... he's a Heavy Russian Borg... in a swamp. Seems like the answer's in the question. Unless he can fly, he's going to be sinking with every step in most places. Even normal people can get stuck in swamp mud, and a Borg? He'll be chest deep or more, if not literally in over his head.
Also, there's the issue of accrued damage. There's not much tech armor-repair in the Dino Swamps. Which means that over time, that Borg's armor is only going to get more and more damaged. The other party members can replace their tech armor with local MDC leather if they need to, but Borgs can't replace damaged body parts that way.
this for the win, besides the fact mud and slime will find their way into every opening it has.
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mrloucifer wrote:I've not had such a gap between power levels before. I want to Borg player to feel challenged, but not at the expense of his otherwise flesh and blood crew. So I've been trying to think on "non-combative" or alternative ways to make life tough for a heavy borg in the Dinosaur Swamps.
Dude... he's a Heavy Russian Borg... in a swamp. Seems like the answer's in the question. Unless he can fly, he's going to be sinking with every step in most places. Even normal people can get stuck in swamp mud, and a Borg? He'll be chest deep or more, if not literally in over his head.
So what if they do? they have robotic strength. They can walk through the mud without much problem through brute force. and it wouldn't be hard for a cyber-doc to seal them up--if they even need to. I always assumed full borgs were completely waterproof anyway--otherwise they'd break down when it rains.
Also, there's the issue of accrued damage. There's not much tech armor-repair in the Dino Swamps. Which means that over time, that Borg's armor is only going to get more and more damaged. The other party members can replace their tech armor with local MDC leather if they need to, but Borgs can't replace damaged body parts that way.
This is more of an issue.
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I try to make my games more logic puzzles and story driven so power level isn't the issue. Nekira beat me to the sinking thing but you can also play with the idea that a cyborg has lost a lot of senses (can't feel when something brushes past their leg under the water or maybe even nibbling on it until it gets down to the artificial nerves). And make them really reliant on the Cyber Doc because he will need lots of extra maintenance because of the environment.
mrloucifer wrote:I ran a RIFTS game for 10 years exclusively, but I retired it and went to BTS-2 back in '05. So I know it well, but I'm really out of practice. But normally I run a Non-BTS game in the summer as summertime kills the horror vibe. The last few years have been games like Nightbane or Heroes Unlimited. But the group surprised me with another idea of running a summer RIFTS adventure in the Dinosaur Swamps.
Then they surprised me again, by the group all playing humans, a Mind Melter, a Cyber-Doc, a Rouge Scholar... and a Heavy Russian Borg.
I've not had such a gap between power levels before. I want to Borg player to feel challenged, but not at the expense of his otherwise flesh and blood crew. So I've been trying to think on "non-combative" or alternative ways to make life tough for a heavy borg in the Dinosaur Swamps. I've been trying to bone up on Rifts info and the books before Thursday nights game, and I've read about the hazards and the wear and tear of the Dinosaur Swamps, but I thought I should consult players and GM's who are more current with advice as to help make a heavy borgs life as hectic as it will be for a group of flesh and bloods.
Any advice is appreciated.
Actually a heavy borg especially something like the russian shock troopers would have tons of challanges in the dinosaur swamp. First being they are a HEAVY borg. In any kind of swamp being that heavy is going to make movement a real pain in the butt. You are going to be WAY to heavy for most light swamp boats and trying to go on foot through swampy areas your speed is going to be almost nil. Heck due to their sheer mass they are probably going to be spending a lot of time up to their eyeballs in sludge and muck.
Now after the real basics of super hindered mobility you run into lack of repair/resupply. The Dino swamp has only a couple areas where you can repair/resupply tech anything let alone anything as advanced as russian cybernetics. That borg is going to start out pretty tough but attrition is going to whittle them down fast to the point they are going to figure out they have to play smart and try to avoid as much damage as possible because repairs are going to be few and far between. Even with a cyber doc in the group lack of resources and place to work on the borg is going to whittle them down pretty fast.
The last big hurdle is dealing with locals. The locals don't see tech anything that often and now you have a giant tech monster in their mix they are either going to be really gunshy around that borg making it harder to get supplies or the borg is going to be a huge target for cyberjackers around areas like char where there is demand for cybernetics but no supply other than cannibalizing stuff from unsuspecting travelers.
Eashamahel wrote:- a very long post about cycborg senses and sense of loss
these are very good points, but it all hinges on whether the player actually roleplays the loss of humanity/self from the cyborg conversion. that they actually care that their character can't taste subtle flavors or ever have kids..
in my experience there are a lot of players who go with something like a heavy cyborg purely because they can be 'faster, stronger, better', be MDC without using body armor, and have powerful built in weapons. in short, because it gives them all the benefits, that can't be easily removed by a GM, and which has drawbacks which are mainly roleplay oriented and thus easily ignored. being a borg, even if you volunteer for it, should carry a degree of angst, but if a player doesn't care about the problems of being a cyborg, you can't force them to roleplay it.
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mrloucifer wrote:I've not had such a gap between power levels before. I want to Borg player to feel challenged, but not at the expense of his otherwise flesh and blood crew. So I've been trying to think on "non-combative" or alternative ways to make life tough for a heavy borg in the Dinosaur Swamps.
Dude... he's a Heavy Russian Borg... in a swamp. Seems like the answer's in the question. Unless he can fly, he's going to be sinking with every step in most places. Even normal people can get stuck in swamp mud, and a Borg? He'll be chest deep or more, if not literally in over his head.
So what if they do? they have robotic strength. They can walk through the mud without much problem through brute force. and it wouldn't be hard for a cyber-doc to seal them up--if they even need to. I always assumed full borgs were completely waterproof anyway--otherwise they'd break down when it rains.
Also, there's the issue of accrued damage. There's not much tech armor-repair in the Dino Swamps. Which means that over time, that Borg's armor is only going to get more and more damaged. The other party members can replace their tech armor with local MDC leather if they need to, but Borgs can't replace damaged body parts that way.
This is more of an issue.
I doubt that 'borgs are completely water proof, but rather just water resistant. Taking you example of rain, they are most likely designed so that the electronics can't get wet as the water flows down the 'borg's chassis. However that same 'borg very well could have issues if they find themselves submerged into water, as the case would be sinking into a swamp.
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mrloucifer wrote:I've not had such a gap between power levels before. I want to Borg player to feel challenged, but not at the expense of his otherwise flesh and blood crew. So I've been trying to think on "non-combative" or alternative ways to make life tough for a heavy borg in the Dinosaur Swamps.
Dude... he's a Heavy Russian Borg... in a swamp. Seems like the answer's in the question. Unless he can fly, he's going to be sinking with every step in most places. Even normal people can get stuck in swamp mud, and a Borg? He'll be chest deep or more, if not literally in over his head.
So what if they do? they have robotic strength. They can walk through the mud without much problem through brute force. and it wouldn't be hard for a cyber-doc to seal them up--if they even need to. I always assumed full borgs were completely waterproof anyway--otherwise they'd break down when it rains.
Also, there's the issue of accrued damage. There's not much tech armor-repair in the Dino Swamps. Which means that over time, that Borg's armor is only going to get more and more damaged. The other party members can replace their tech armor with local MDC leather if they need to, but Borgs can't replace damaged body parts that way.
This is more of an issue.
I doubt that 'borgs are completely water proof, but rather just water resistant. Taking you example of rain, they are most likely designed so that the electronics can't get wet as the water flows down the 'borg's chassis. However that same 'borg very well could have issues if they find themselves submerged into water, as the case would be sinking into a swamp.
if your spending millions of dollars macking a machine that a human will have to live in for the rest of his life, why WOULDN'T you make it completely waterproof. I'd require it before I ever agreed to the proceedure.
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg
You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon
Of course full conversion cyborgs are going to be waterproof. Just because something is not specifically addressed in the books, word for word in explicit detail, does not mean the intent isn't there.
Look up the standard features for power armor. They are all capable of underwater operation, 500ft or more. If a suit of power armor, with its numerous seals and necessary weak points can manage that, then it's silly to assume a full conversion cyborg won't have at least similar tolerances. Remember, the cyborg chassis isn't only a weapon of war, but it's also a life support unit with multiple redundancies and fail safe features to protect what remains of its biological components. When something sinks like a stone and can almost never swim, no one would design and successfully market a chassis that is susceptible to anything less than extreme submersions.
If water could get 'inside' of the 'borg and mess it up, or at worst damage it, wouldn't other environmental factors also play havoc with it? Like, in this instance, the Russian winter?
they may have higher strength than an equivilent human, but their traction is still going to be on par with a human of their physical size.* so while they can lift more, their ability to move through a material is still going to be limited by how much energy they can use to move a limb forwards in a material without pushing against said material enough to make them actually move backwards as a result.
*borgs weigh more than a human, but they'd have to have the same or less ground pressure as a human if they don't want to break through floors and such with each step, so they'd have proportionally larger feet. since traction is partly based on ground pressure, this would mean that a borg would have similar traction as a human. you could probably use a snowshoe like structure to lower the ground pressure and increase surface area more, letting the borg, in theory, walk ontop of mod and snow, but odds are that by that point the borg would be wearing massive clown shoes and probably limited to a waddle.
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Gotta go with General Mud here. No matter how much you seal up a fullcon cyborg, having to stop every fifteen-twenty minutes to winch him out of the muck is going to cut down the speed and patience of just about any group. He might be able to power through the gunk, but that's going to take time too, and quicksand bogs? Can't use the standard 'try to float' response unless he's got built-in floatation gear. Suggest he gets the equivalent of BIG snowshoes to better distribute his weight...although unless the PC states this at the beginning, let him sink a few times before the idea comes up(it's like the hedgerow cutters in D-Day; nobody thought of them BEFORE the invasion, but once somebody improvized them up, it seemed so glaringly OBVIOUS).
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mrloucifer wrote:I've not had such a gap between power levels before. I want to Borg player to feel challenged, but not at the expense of his otherwise flesh and blood crew. So I've been trying to think on "non-combative" or alternative ways to make life tough for a heavy borg in the Dinosaur Swamps.
Dude... he's a Heavy Russian Borg... in a swamp. Seems like the answer's in the question. Unless he can fly, he's going to be sinking with every step in most places. Even normal people can get stuck in swamp mud, and a Borg? He'll be chest deep or more, if not literally in over his head.
So what if they do? they have robotic strength. They can walk through the mud without much problem through brute force.
You sound like a person who's never waded through waist-deep or chest deep mud. At the least, it's going to cut them down to moving at 1/3 speed, and it'll play hell with their quickdraw. And that's giving them benefit of doubt, and assuming their head and part of their body will stick out.
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Nekira Sudacne wrote:So what if they do? they have robotic strength. They can walk through the mud without much problem through brute force. and it wouldn't be hard for a cyber-doc to seal them up--if they even need to. I always assumed full borgs were completely waterproof anyway--otherwise they'd break down when it rains.
Sure, they could walk right through that mud...if they could get purchase with their feet. Unfortunately, they'd have to get their feet against something that gives them sufficient traction to allow them to overcome the density of the mud. That robotic strength won't help for squat if they can't get enough traction to move and are sunk ten feet deep in mud. They're not so deep that they've hit bedrock, but they're deep enough to have stopped sinking. So they move their legs, and they slide. They try and dig...but the mud falls back in around them again.
Sorry Nekkie, but brute force won't cut it in this case.
Also, a clever GM would teach the person about quicksand, about the damage MDC grit can do to joints and optics, about what happens when you fire a gun has a clogged barrel, about how small animals like pretty shiny things like that fancy laser pistol, and about what funny things those swamp plants can do to your mind...especially when you're up late on watch and nobody else is awake.
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Johnnycat93 wrote:Since Cyborgs actually have a specific armor that makes them environmentally sealed I'm gonna go with no, at least not completely. Normal Cyborg characters aren't environmentally sealed from gases either unless they buy the extra feature. Now, there is another accessory "Depth Gauge & Alarm" that says it warns the cyborg when it is within 100 ft of it's maximum depth tolerance, but there is no mention of any actual max depth. Opening up the closest book with stated out bodies (Triax) there appears to be no maximum depth listed in their statistical data. There isn't even a mention of a swim speed, again bringing into question a borgs water tightness. To me, this all implies that borgs are not naturally water tight. However, I would say that the major organs along with electric systems are all likely sealed, since cyborgs have a resistance to EMP attacks.
There's a difference between the two. If borgs weren't ordinarily water resistant, all one would have to do is throw a bucket of water on them and they'd short out.
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taalismn wrote:(it's like the hedgerow cutters in D-Day; nobody thought of them BEFORE the invasion, but once somebody improvized them up, it seemed so glaringly OBVIOUS).
well, the allies had cutting tool equipped vehicles, but they were special engineering systems that were unarmed and vulnerable. and they underestimated the size and durability of the bocage.. they called them hedge rows, but they were basically windbreaks made of densely packed trees growing along a berm of rock and hard packed dirt, with deep drainage ditches on either side. it was expected that a combination of engineering vehicles and explosives would suffice, but that assumption didn't pan out. explosives had to be placed by infantry, and infantry had trouble reaching the hedgerows due ot enemy fire (the ditches and berms made for excellent cover for german troops.. it was like WW1 trench fighting, but without the artillery support levels from that war), and the engineering vehicles were not common enough and not distributed widely enough to make a dent.. especially since they were easily knocked out. and both approaches tended to be very noisy and alert the germans that allied troops were coming.
Sherman tanks could usually drive right through the hedgerows, but in doing so they tended to pitch way up and expose their lightly protected undersides.. leaving them vulnerable to german anti-tank emplacements and the relatively new Panzerfaust anti-tank grenade. the 'hedge cutter' developed by 1st. Lt. Charles B. Green was less used to cut the hedgerows as it was to anchor the tank's front down when it drove through, leaving them less vulnerable. the hedgecutters could be made using scrap metal from the beach obstacles, and they were a largely unofficial modification at first. done by the tank crews who learned of them by word of mouth. but eventually they were recognized by the higher commands who started standardizing the design and getting it to more units.
the hedgerow cutters hadn't actually been obvious in retrospect.. though enough of the big generals (like patton, and some of the Free french troops) were familiar with the region and had tried warning the commanders of the issue.. they were largely ignored, due to the fact many of them were pushing for alternative landing spots, and those who were listened to failed to get the magnitude of the problem across.
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honestly, even if we suppose that the 'borg can get enough traction, i'm still not convinced a 'borg could just walk through chest-deep mud. i mean, robotic PS of 40 lets you carry, what, 4,000 lbs? sure, that sounds like a lot, but i mean, think about it... there's plenty of land machines today that can haul 4,000 lbs. do you think *they* can push right through solid mud?
sexykitty wrote:So the borg would need a hoverbike or a jetpack or a bionic flight system. Kinda limits distance traveled in a day.
well, that only gets you so far.
i mean, you gotta land at some point... and if you pick the wrong spot, now in addition to getting your 'borg stuck in the mud, there's also a hoverbike buried somewhere that you parked "over near that bush... or was it that one over there?"
Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:Of course full conversion cyborgs are going to be waterproof. Just because something is not specifically addressed in the books, word for word in explicit detail, does not mean the intent isn't there.
Look up the standard features for power armor. They are all capable of underwater operation, 500ft or more. If a suit of power armor, with its numerous seals and necessary weak points can manage that, then it's silly to assume a full conversion cyborg won't have at least similar tolerances. Remember, the cyborg chassis isn't only a weapon of war, but it's also a life support unit with multiple redundancies and fail safe features to protect what remains of its biological components. When something sinks like a stone and can almost never swim, no one would design and successfully market a chassis that is susceptible to anything less than extreme submersions.
Since Cyborgs actually have a specific armor that makes them environmentally sealed I'm gonna go with no, at least not completely. Normal Cyborg characters aren't environmentally sealed from gases either unless they buy the extra feature. Now, there is another accessory "Depth Gauge & Alarm" that says it warns the cyborg when it is within 100 ft of it's maximum depth tolerance, but there is no mention of any actual max depth. Opening up the closest book with stated out bodies (Triax) there appears to be no maximum depth listed in their statistical data. There isn't even a mention of a swim speed, again bringing into question a borgs water tightness. To me, this all implies that borgs are not naturally water tight. However, I would say that the major organs along with electric systems are all likely sealed, since cyborgs have a resistance to EMP attacks.
Just because Borg armor is environmentally sealed doesn't mean that borgs themselves aren't either. Human beings are basically environmentally sealed (they aren't going to leak in water for example) but their power armor is environmentally sealed as well. Just reasonable that even as a cyborg you'd want your added armor to be sealed as well, extra level of protective redundancy.
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Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:Of course full conversion cyborgs are going to be waterproof. Just because something is not specifically addressed in the books, word for word in explicit detail, does not mean the intent isn't there.
Look up the standard features for power armor. They are all capable of underwater operation, 500ft or more. If a suit of power armor, with its numerous seals and necessary weak points can manage that, then it's silly to assume a full conversion cyborg won't have at least similar tolerances. Remember, the cyborg chassis isn't only a weapon of war, but it's also a life support unit with multiple redundancies and fail safe features to protect what remains of its biological components. When something sinks like a stone and can almost never swim, no one would design and successfully market a chassis that is susceptible to anything less than extreme submersions.
Since Cyborgs actually have a specific armor that makes them environmentally sealed I'm gonna go with no, at least not completely. Normal Cyborg characters aren't environmentally sealed from gases either unless they buy the extra feature. Now, there is another accessory "Depth Gauge & Alarm" that says it warns the cyborg when it is within 100 ft of it's maximum depth tolerance, but there is no mention of any actual max depth. Opening up the closest book with stated out bodies (Triax) there appears to be no maximum depth listed in their statistical data. There isn't even a mention of a swim speed, again bringing into question a borgs water tightness. To me, this all implies that borgs are not naturally water tight. However, I would say that the major organs along with electric systems are all likely sealed, since cyborgs have a resistance to EMP attacks.
Just because Borg armor is environmentally sealed doesn't mean that borgs themselves aren't either. Human beings are basically environmentally sealed (they aren't going to leak in water for example) but their power armor is environmentally sealed as well. Just reasonable that even as a cyborg you'd want your added armor to be sealed as well, extra level of protective redundancy.
I see very little that definitively suggests either way. Just how effectively borgs are sealed is pretty much totally open for interpretation.
Not really, the body of evidence is going to lean towards them being full environmental because they have to be. They're effectively the replacement body for a living being and it'd be really stupid and shoddy to leave a cyborg's body vulnerable to things like water leaking into it, the default would have to be full environmental as it is for power armor and robot vehicles. One really can't make a case for them not being full environmental.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:Of course full conversion cyborgs are going to be waterproof. Just because something is not specifically addressed in the books, word for word in explicit detail, does not mean the intent isn't there.
Look up the standard features for power armor. They are all capable of underwater operation, 500ft or more. If a suit of power armor, with its numerous seals and necessary weak points can manage that, then it's silly to assume a full conversion cyborg won't have at least similar tolerances. Remember, the cyborg chassis isn't only a weapon of war, but it's also a life support unit with multiple redundancies and fail safe features to protect what remains of its biological components. When something sinks like a stone and can almost never swim, no one would design and successfully market a chassis that is susceptible to anything less than extreme submersions.
Since Cyborgs actually have a specific armor that makes them environmentally sealed I'm gonna go with no, at least not completely. Normal Cyborg characters aren't environmentally sealed from gases either unless they buy the extra feature. Now, there is another accessory "Depth Gauge & Alarm" that says it warns the cyborg when it is within 100 ft of it's maximum depth tolerance, but there is no mention of any actual max depth. Opening up the closest book with stated out bodies (Triax) there appears to be no maximum depth listed in their statistical data. There isn't even a mention of a swim speed, again bringing into question a borgs water tightness. To me, this all implies that borgs are not naturally water tight. However, I would say that the major organs along with electric systems are all likely sealed, since cyborgs have a resistance to EMP attacks.
Just because Borg armor is environmentally sealed doesn't mean that borgs themselves aren't either. Human beings are basically environmentally sealed (they aren't going to leak in water for example) but their power armor is environmentally sealed as well. Just reasonable that even as a cyborg you'd want your added armor to be sealed as well, extra level of protective redundancy.
I see very little that definitively suggests either way. Just how effectively borgs are sealed is pretty much totally open for interpretation.
Not really, the body of evidence is going to lean towards them being full environmental because they have to be. They're effectively the replacement body for a living being and it'd be really stupid and shoddy to leave a cyborg's body vulnerable to things like water leaking into it, the default would have to be full environmental as it is for power armor and robot vehicles. One really can't make a case for them not being full environmental.
I have to agree with nightmask here completely. I have never even considered the idea that they are not environmentally sealed, that would be such a huge design flaw as to effectively make them a worthless upgrade. 'Borgs are primarily designed as soldiers. Not I've never been in the military, but in every army movie I've seen in boot camp they always have the soldiers fording a river or crawling through mud or whatever, I can't imagine they would not design borgs to be able to endure the same environmental challenges that an average soldier goes through in boot camp training in pretty much every army movie ever made, even the crappy ones like starship troopers.
mrloucifer wrote:I've not had such a gap between power levels before. I want to Borg player to feel challenged, but not at the expense of his otherwise flesh and blood crew. So I've been trying to think on "non-combative" or alternative ways to make life tough for a heavy borg in the Dinosaur Swamps.
Dude... he's a Heavy Russian Borg... in a swamp. Seems like the answer's in the question. Unless he can fly, he's going to be sinking with every step in most places. Even normal people can get stuck in swamp mud, and a Borg? He'll be chest deep or more, if not literally in over his head.
So what if they do? they have robotic strength. They can walk through the mud without much problem through brute force.
You sound like a person who's never waded through waist-deep or chest deep mud. At the least, it's going to cut them down to moving at 1/3 speed, and it'll play hell with their quickdraw. And that's giving them benefit of doubt, and assuming their head and part of their body will stick out.
Yes as somebody who has had to wade through bogs and swamps if you have not done it you won't realize how hard it is to move. It is not just the thick muck and mud being thick and hard to move through it is the suction that is produced trying to move through it. It is really easy to get a foot stuck by the suction to the point you cannot lift it up. Now a borg is super strong but they are also immensely heavier and so are going to be having to deal near to full body suction issues in the mud. 1/3 speed is probably optimistic in swamp/bayoo conditions.
As for environmental sealing I would have to assume all borgs are at least resistant to water pressures as humans are and are rated to at least that depth by default which would be 100-200 feet. For actual deep diving you would need the stuff you see in rifts underseas and/or specific listings by borg frames. But even so I would have to imagine the immense amount of gunk would cause maintenance issues especially in weapons that are not concealed inside compartments.
Really if you try to think of the worst place imaginable to operate a heavy mechanized unit swamp/bayou has got to be in the top of that list.
mrloucifer wrote:I've not had such a gap between power levels before. I want to Borg player to feel challenged, but not at the expense of his otherwise flesh and blood crew. So I've been trying to think on "non-combative" or alternative ways to make life tough for a heavy borg in the Dinosaur Swamps.
Dude... he's a Heavy Russian Borg... in a swamp. Seems like the answer's in the question. Unless he can fly, he's going to be sinking with every step in most places. Even normal people can get stuck in swamp mud, and a Borg? He'll be chest deep or more, if not literally in over his head.
So what if they do? they have robotic strength. They can walk through the mud without much problem through brute force.
You sound like a person who's never waded through waist-deep or chest deep mud. At the least, it's going to cut them down to moving at 1/3 speed, and it'll play hell with their quickdraw. And that's giving them benefit of doubt, and assuming their head and part of their body will stick out.
Sure I have had to wade through some seriously deep mud before.
What I havn't done is tried to wade through hip deep mud with legs that are capable of shattering an M1A1 Abrhams tank into peices with one kick. I don't think you have either.
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg
You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon
mrloucifer wrote:I've not had such a gap between power levels before. I want to Borg player to feel challenged, but not at the expense of his otherwise flesh and blood crew. So I've been trying to think on "non-combative" or alternative ways to make life tough for a heavy borg in the Dinosaur Swamps.
Dude... he's a Heavy Russian Borg... in a swamp. Seems like the answer's in the question. Unless he can fly, he's going to be sinking with every step in most places. Even normal people can get stuck in swamp mud, and a Borg? He'll be chest deep or more, if not literally in over his head.
So what if they do? they have robotic strength. They can walk through the mud without much problem through brute force.
You sound like a person who's never waded through waist-deep or chest deep mud. At the least, it's going to cut them down to moving at 1/3 speed, and it'll play hell with their quickdraw. And that's giving them benefit of doubt, and assuming their head and part of their body will stick out.
Sure I have had to wade through some seriously deep mud before.
I'm skeptical.
What I havn't done is tried to wade through hip deep mud with legs that are capable of shattering an M1A1 Abrhams tank into peices with one kick. I don't think you have either.
Nope. But I've never weighed over a thousand pounds either, so I've never been as deep in mud as the borg would be, nor in mud quite so thick.
Your argument overall seems to be that Borgs can't be weighted down, because they have Robotic Strength. But we know this isn't true in the game. We know that a Borg wearing heavy armor see their running speed dropped by 20%, and their physical skills dropped by 25%, as well as suffering -2 to combat rolls. We know that Borgs are slowed down by trudging in heavy snow (pointed out by somebody earlier in this thread). We know, in short, that Borgs are slowed down and impaired by weight and mass that they're trying to carry or push through.
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mrloucifer wrote:I've not had such a gap between power levels before. I want to Borg player to feel challenged, but not at the expense of his otherwise flesh and blood crew. So I've been trying to think on "non-combative" or alternative ways to make life tough for a heavy borg in the Dinosaur Swamps.
Dude... he's a Heavy Russian Borg... in a swamp. Seems like the answer's in the question. Unless he can fly, he's going to be sinking with every step in most places. Even normal people can get stuck in swamp mud, and a Borg? He'll be chest deep or more, if not literally in over his head.
So what if they do? they have robotic strength. They can walk through the mud without much problem through brute force.
You sound like a person who's never waded through waist-deep or chest deep mud. At the least, it's going to cut them down to moving at 1/3 speed, and it'll play hell with their quickdraw. And that's giving them benefit of doubt, and assuming their head and part of their body will stick out.
Sure I have had to wade through some seriously deep mud before.
What I havn't done is tried to wade through hip deep mud with legs that are capable of shattering an M1A1 Abrhams tank into peices with one kick. I don't think you have either.
Your really strong legs need to push against something capable of resisting them in order to hold you up. Given your additional mass as a borg, I'm skeptical that mud will give you the purchase and resistance that you'll need.
--flatline
I don't care about canon answers. I'm interested in good, well-reasoned answers and, perhaps, a short discussion of how that answer is supported or contradicted by canon.
If I don't provide a book and page number, then don't assume that I'm describing canon. I'll tell you if I'm describing canon.
One thing to note I am not claiming borgs would be unable to move in swamps. Their immense strength I think would win out in the end even if they have to jump from tree trunk to tree trunk most have the capability to do that. That said swamps would be god awful terrain for something as heavy as a borg and they will be lucky if they can maintain speeds of normal humans let along their normal super human speed levels.
So really the biggest challange for a Borg in the dinosaur swamp is they are a borg in the dinosaur swamp. I think if you play it well it will help give the player and the group a good appreciation for the size and power of the borg while also highlighting that power and size are great up to a certain point but there are some things that cannot simply be powered through and those just have to be endured.
Plus the borg should get an amusing amount of ribbing for being the swamp thing and sludging around with half the swamp stuck to his armor. Although this hinderance can also be used to a smart players advantage. Seriously what opponent in the Dinosaur swamp is going to be expecting a russian heavy borg lurking 2 feet under the swamp surface plodding around after his buddies. Ambush the buddies and all the sudden you have 12 feet of angry borg erupt from the goo.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Sure I have had to wade through some seriously deep mud before.
I'm skeptical.
That's kind of your problem isn't it? Not like your beleif i'm lying changes the truth.
What I havn't done is tried to wade through hip deep mud with legs that are capable of shattering an M1A1 Abrhams tank into peices with one kick. I don't think you have either.
Nope. But I've never weighed over a thousand pounds either, so I've never been as deep in mud as the borg would be, nor in mud quite so thick.
allright. How much would x amount of mud pressing down on you weigh vs how much pressure you need to shatter tank armor.
Your argument overall seems to be that Borgs can't be weighted down, because they have Robotic Strength. But we know this isn't true in the game.
Indeed. Good thing I never actually made that argument then! I said that wading through hip deep mud wouldn't slow a borg down. an entirely different statement.
We know that Borgs are slowed down by trudging in heavy snow (pointed out by somebody earlier in this thread).
It wouldn't be the first silly rule that made it into print if so. but because it's silly I wouldn't be inclinded to cite it as precident for any other ruling.
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg
You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon
Natasha wrote:Humans and the dinos in the region will want to avoid the muck as much as the borg will want to avoid the muck.
That depends on the humans and dinos in question.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)
"Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Sure I have had to wade through some seriously deep mud before.
I'm skeptical.
That's kind of your problem isn't it?
I doubt it.
What I havn't done is tried to wade through hip deep mud with legs that are capable of shattering an M1A1 Abrhams tank into peices with one kick. I don't think you have either.
Nope. But I've never weighed over a thousand pounds either, so I've never been as deep in mud as the borg would be, nor in mud quite so thick.
allright. How much would x amount of mud pressing down on you weigh vs how much pressure you need to shatter tank armor.
Wrong question. You should be asking, "How much would x amount of mud pressing down on you weigh vs how weight much can the borg carry?"
Your argument overall seems to be that Borgs can't be weighted down, because they have Robotic Strength. But we know this isn't true in the game.
Indeed. Good thing I never actually made that argument then! I said that wading through hip deep mud wouldn't slow a borg down. an entirely different statement.
No... you said that wading through hip-deep mud, or NECK-DEEP mud, or mud over the borg's head wouldn't cause "much problem" for the a borg, because of the borg's strength. Reread the conversation, if you need to.
Last edited by Killer Cyborg on Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)
"Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell
Johnnycat93 wrote:All seals fail at some level, and my gut instinct would be to say that Borgs are unaffected by water normally, but having their bodies submerged in it for extended periods of time will cause them problems.
Define 'extended periods of time.' If you mean, 'four hours', I'm not buying it. If you mean, 'fourteen weeks', I could probably go with it.
/Sub
There's a reason...and a very good one...that I have certain people in this forum blocked both here and on Facebook.
I can see an illustration of that nearly every time I come here.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Sure I have had to wade through some seriously deep mud before.
What I havn't done is tried to wade through hip deep mud with legs that are capable of shattering an M1A1 Abrhams tank into peices with one kick. I don't think you have either.
The strength of those legs does not impart additional traction.
/Sub
There's a reason...and a very good one...that I have certain people in this forum blocked both here and on Facebook.
I can see an illustration of that nearly every time I come here.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Sure I have had to wade through some seriously deep mud before.
What I havn't done is tried to wade through hip deep mud with legs that are capable of shattering an M1A1 Abrhams tank into peices with one kick. I don't think you have either.
The strength of those legs does not impart additional traction.
/Sub
Having robotic strength would probably make the problem worse. Without specialized feet or shoes to reduce the ground pressure, the more strength the 'borg used to try and walk the more it would compress and liquify the underlying ground reducing traction further.
Johnnycat93 wrote:All seals fail at some level, and my gut instinct would be to say that Borgs are unaffected by water normally, but having their bodies submerged in it for extended periods of time will cause them problems.
Define 'extended periods of time.' If you mean, 'four hours', I'm not buying it. If you mean, 'fourteen weeks', I could probably go with it.
/Sub
I would say 10-12 hours of constant exposure would probably be the threshold for a normal borg.
I can't see where you arrive at that conclusion, that's extremely poor seals for something meant to be someone's body. If they couldn't handle minor water pressure for less than half a day the joints wouldn't survive any amount of actual activity as they'd quickly wear out and let in grit and dust (which is always around in all but the most sealed environments and Borgs are out in RL conditions) which would destroy the systems. You need to keep in mind that those borg systems are in effectively constant use and just walking around is continuous stress on all the seals at those joints. They'd end up with hideous repair bills and/or require wearing supplemental protection to protect against that, and given we have no reason to believe that to be a problem and again we see nothing to suggest that things like power armor don't have these problems then Borgs won't have them either.
The Borg would be at least as sealed and durable as any power armor and should be even moreso. Heck the life support systems are so sealed and protected that even reducing the main body MDC to zero can't shut them down, you require an extra 150 MDC to shut them down. They're going to be massively overengineered to ensure functionality.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
If a regular man sinks into the marsh up to his waist, how much further will the much heavier borg sink?
--flatline
I don't care about canon answers. I'm interested in good, well-reasoned answers and, perhaps, a short discussion of how that answer is supported or contradicted by canon.
If I don't provide a book and page number, then don't assume that I'm describing canon. I'll tell you if I'm describing canon.
While i think a cyborb will sink deep...most russian ones are over 10 feet tall if i remember right. But i do think cyobrgs are water proof, their joints could get mucked up but swamp water is not going to get inside the "guts" of a cyborg. They might not be able to breath toxic air, but sitting in a river or swamp up to the shoulders or neck waiting for a target should not be a feat of enginering for a borg designer.
Johnnycat93 wrote:I would say 10-12 hours of constant exposure would probably be the threshold for a normal borg.
So you think this hundreds of thousands if not millions of credits is not as well sealed as a common water resistant watch is today?
Consider that ordinary Dead Boy armor is capable of working just fine in space, that would also tend to indicate it works just fine in water, and if that armor, worth around 35,000 credits on the Black Market, is better sealed than a million credit borg, I'll eat my hat. Even ordinary body armors are sealed for working in 'most hostile environments', and they are not the body of the people, but just the armor.
Add in the fact that the gills and depth finder in the Bionics Sourcebook don't mention adding any resistance, and that the depth finder notes when you're coming within 100' of one's limit would tend to indicate that this is not a correct assessment.
Sorry - I'm not buying it. I don't have my copy of Underseas here, but this is sounding less and less like you are correct.
/Sub
There's a reason...and a very good one...that I have certain people in this forum blocked both here and on Facebook.
I can see an illustration of that nearly every time I come here.
Johnnycat93 wrote:I would say 10-12 hours of constant exposure would probably be the threshold for a normal borg.
So you think this hundreds of thousands if not millions of credits is not as well sealed as a common water resistant watch is today?
Consider that ordinary Dead Boy armor is capable of working just fine in space, that would also tend to indicate it works just fine in water, and if that armor, worth around 35,000 credits on the Black Market, is better sealed than a million credit borg, I'll eat my hat. Even ordinary body armors are sealed for working in 'most hostile environments', and they are not the body of the people, but just the armor.
Add in the fact that the gills and depth finder in the Bionics Sourcebook don't mention adding any resistance, and that the depth finder notes when you're coming within 100' of one's limit would tend to indicate that this is not a correct assessment.
Sorry - I'm not buying it. I don't have my copy of Underseas here, but this is sounding less and less like you are correct.
/Sub
I'm not saying that my conclusion is canon, but given the evidence and my interpretation of it, I do end up at that conclusion. If someone can find something definitive in some book I would be more than glad to switch my view. Given that EBA can only survive 12 hours or so in winter conditions, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that most environmental seals don't actually hold up over time.
What evidence are you using to arrive at that conclusion? I've seen no evidence that anyone could use to support the idea that a cyborg would be so horribly defective and vulnerable so what material are you using to arrive at such terrible limits on the environmental seals and tolerances for cyborgs?
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Johnnycat93 wrote:Reread the thread. Other than that I suppose that I am just sadistic GM and like to constantly harass players.
I've read the thread. There is no evidence to suggest they aren't sealed and there is specific evidence to suggest they are...specifically, the gills...which only exist for those times when you're going to exceed the capacity of the bionic lung and the depth gauge, which tells you when you get WITHIN ONE HUNDRED FEET of one's depth limit. That directly states that the depth limit is over 100 feet, and is likely substantially so, since they'd know perfectly well they were within 100 feet of their limit if it wasn't over 101 feet (or the like).
/Sub
There's a reason...and a very good one...that I have certain people in this forum blocked both here and on Facebook.
I can see an illustration of that nearly every time I come here.
Johnnycat93 wrote:I would say 10-12 hours of constant exposure would probably be the threshold for a normal borg.
So you think this hundreds of thousands if not millions of credits is not as well sealed as a common water resistant watch is today?
Consider that ordinary Dead Boy armor is capable of working just fine in space, that would also tend to indicate it works just fine in water, and if that armor, worth around 35,000 credits on the Black Market, is better sealed than a million credit borg, I'll eat my hat. Even ordinary body armors are sealed for working in 'most hostile environments', and they are not the body of the people, but just the armor.
Add in the fact that the gills and depth finder in the Bionics Sourcebook don't mention adding any resistance, and that the depth finder notes when you're coming within 100' of one's limit would tend to indicate that this is not a correct assessment.
Sorry - I'm not buying it. I don't have my copy of Underseas here, but this is sounding less and less like you are correct.
/Sub
I'm not saying that my conclusion is canon, but given the evidence and my interpretation of it, I do end up at that conclusion. If someone can find something definitive in some book I would be more than glad to switch my view. Given that EBA can only survive 12 hours or so in winter conditions, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that most environmental seals don't actually hold up over time.
What evidence are you using to arrive at that conclusion? I've seen no evidence that anyone could use to support the idea that a cyborg would be so horribly defective and vulnerable so what material are you using to arrive at such terrible limits on the environmental seals and tolerances for cyborgs?
Reread the thread. Other than that I suppose that I am just sadistic GM and like to constantly harass players.
I've done just fine reading the thread on the first go-through, and other than a reference to Rifts: Underseas and a cyborg body specifically designed for deep sea functionality I've seen nothing pointed to in the books regarding cyborgs in general that would leave one to believe that they're so poorly designed that their protective seals are only good for 12 hrs at best before failing. It's not like we're talking a vehicle like power armor here, we're talking something specifically designed to be someone's new body and superior as much as possible to the original flesh and blood.
We see references to 'slave borgs' and being used for things like mining in dangerous and toxic environments, which if they couldn't even last half a day before needing expensive repairs it'd be quite stupid to spend so much money turning someone into a full conversion borg for such things if borgs are so defective and break down and need fixed on a daily basis. Yes, that's horribly defective and no one would want to be a cyborg with those kinds of physical defects and design flaws.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Johnnycat93 wrote:Reread the thread. Other than that I suppose that I am just sadistic GM and like to constantly harass players.
I've read the thread. There is no evidence to suggest they aren't sealed and there is specific evidence to suggest they are...specifically, the gills...which only exist for those times when you're going to exceed the capacity of the bionic lung and the depth gauge, which tells you when you get WITHIN ONE HUNDRED FEET of one's depth limit. That directly states that the depth limit is over 100 feet, and is likely substantially so, since they'd know perfectly well they were within 100 feet of their limit if it wasn't over 101 feet (or the like).
/Sub
OR The Depth Gauge is designed for Cyborgs using the Diving armor, which gives them a maximum depth of a 1.7 miles. So yes, their Max Depth is over 100 ft, When wearing special armor.
Now if there was actually something that said Borgs have depth tolerance X than that would be a whole different story.
There's nothing saying that normal humans have a depth tolerance of X. Does that mean that they're not waterproof?
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"Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell
Johnnycat93 wrote:Reread the thread. Other than that I suppose that I am just sadistic GM and like to constantly harass players.
I've read the thread. There is no evidence to suggest they aren't sealed and there is specific evidence to suggest they are...specifically, the gills...which only exist for those times when you're going to exceed the capacity of the bionic lung and the depth gauge, which tells you when you get WITHIN ONE HUNDRED FEET of one's depth limit. That directly states that the depth limit is over 100 feet, and is likely substantially so, since they'd know perfectly well they were within 100 feet of their limit if it wasn't over 101 feet (or the like).
/Sub
OR The Depth Gauge is designed for Cyborgs using the Diving armor, which gives them a maximum depth of a 1.7 miles. So yes, their Max Depth is over 100 ft, When wearing special armor.
Now if there was actually something that said Borgs have depth tolerance X than that would be a whole different story.
...and the gills, which also give them the ability to be immersed?
So let's see if I understand this correctly though. You believe that the 1-2M credit borg from a couple of hundred years in the future is less able to function in the water than is a $50 watch or countless tools and machines built today (that cost far less than 1/100th of the cost of said borg)?
/Sub
There's a reason...and a very good one...that I have certain people in this forum blocked both here and on Facebook.
I can see an illustration of that nearly every time I come here.
Johnnycat93 wrote:Reread the thread. Other than that I suppose that I am just sadistic GM and like to constantly harass players.
I've read the thread. There is no evidence to suggest they aren't sealed and there is specific evidence to suggest they are...specifically, the gills...which only exist for those times when you're going to exceed the capacity of the bionic lung and the depth gauge, which tells you when you get WITHIN ONE HUNDRED FEET of one's depth limit. That directly states that the depth limit is over 100 feet, and is likely substantially so, since they'd know perfectly well they were within 100 feet of their limit if it wasn't over 101 feet (or the like).
/Sub
OR The Depth Gauge is designed for Cyborgs using the Diving armor, which gives them a maximum depth of a 1.7 miles. So yes, their Max Depth is over 100 ft, When wearing special armor.
Now if there was actually something that said Borgs have depth tolerance X than that would be a whole different story.
If the borg can get a feature that functions as a Depth Gauge for them then clearly it's meant to work with the actual borg and has nothing to do with some external additional armor that ought to be self-evident. You'd have no need to install something like that into the base borg other than to measure how deep it is, extra armor meant to extend the depth would have its own independent sensors and read-out for the borg to read, just like power armor or a submersible would be expected to have.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Humans can't go deeper than 50ft without special equipment or magic. with basic diving equipment, skin divers can go down to 160ft normal cyborgs and powered armor can reach depths of 450ft cyborgs and powered armor designed for deep sea use can reach depths of 2000ft
presumably if a specific suit of powered armor or cyborg body lists a different number, that overrides these general limits
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70) Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project) * All fantasy should have a solid base in reality. * Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter. -Max Beerbohm Visit my Website
Humans can't go deeper than 50ft without special equipment or magic. with basic diving equipment, skin divers can go down to 160ft normal cyborgs and powered armor can reach depths of 450ft cyborgs and powered armor designed for deep sea use can reach depths of 2000ft
presumably if a specific suit of powered armor or cyborg body lists a different number, that overrides these general limits
Not actual durations given though, correct? Such as 'seals will last X hrs before failing'?
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
