Lazlo RAW

[jaymz]

Then riddle me this .....how is it MULTIPLE CITIES MASS PRODUCE items when by these rule MASS PRODUCTION is not possible?

I am damn sure they don't have 200 TWs JUST making magic tw widget 312 every damn day.

Lazlo
Dweomer
Arzno
Magefire
Stormspire
Tolkeen when it existed.

ALL MASS PRODUCE TW items. You want to harp on one part of rules intended for use by a Player Character....in order to keep them from essentially contracting out all but the spell part of the creation..... It makes ZERO sense to the setting and what is IN the damn setting as canon but by all means die on that hill of wrong.

[Mack]

I've been following this discussion for a few days and finally have some time to contribute a bit regarding mass production of TW items.

On Stormspire:
Stormspire 'the' TW manufacturer in North America, with 30-40% of the market.
FoMr p57 "Also, Stormspire does not have conventional factories, so each vehicle is painstakingly hand-built."
So they do not have mass production as we think of it.

On MageFire:
MercOps p145 "Like the infamous Naruni Enterprises, MageFire is a trans-dimensional arms dealer based in another dimension and has no permanent manufacturing facilities on Rifts Earth."
So we don't know what alien methods or procedures they may use in production, but whatever they do it isn't traditional.

Tolkeen:
I don't find any reference to actual production capabilities. (But with six books I won't claim to have performed and exhaustive search.)

Dweomer:
FoMr p16 "A place where technology is not merely ignored in preference to magic, but is actually disdained (Techno-Wizard devices, which are plentiful, are considered creations of magic and not technology)."
Based on that sentiment, I don't see massive factories (of any type) in Dweomer, but we don't have specific reference on their TW production facilities.

Arzno:
While p44 has a passing reference to mass-production, it also says Arzno is behind the Colorado Baronies in terms of TW manufacturing.

Colorado Baronies:
I don't any reference to any of the communities having any kind of production facilities. The context seems to be traditional boutique TW shops, of which Arzno lags behind.


Based on all of that, the few references we do see regarding mass production of TW items appear, at best, to conflict with canon capability descriptions and, at worst, be outright false. Given some of the other descriptions of TW manufacturing in RUE, my inclination is to say the phrase "mass production" was used inexactly in some references. As all this relates to Lazlo, unless the new book intentionally overrules FoMr then Stormspire is the undisputed king of TW manufacturing in North America and they don't do mass production.

YMMV

[Soldier of Od]

Thanks, Mack, for those references. I hope they help to make things a bit clearer for everybody.

I don't think I am "harping on" about the rules, but the fact is they are there, and there is nothing to suggest that they only apply to some techno-wizards and not others. Some of you might be sure of something, but the books say different. This isn't my opinion or anything, it's just there. I have already suggested ways a company could mass-produce and/or standardise items while still working within the boundaries of the construction rules. I get that some of you don't like the rules as written - there are parts of it I don't like either - so if you want your techno-wizards working on assembly lines then just change them to suit your own game.

[kaid]

Then riddle me this .....how is it MULTIPLE CITIES MASS PRODUCE items when by these rule MASS PRODUCTION is not possible?

I am damn sure they don't have 200 TWs JUST making magic tw widget 312 every damn day.

Lazlo
Dweomer
Arzno
Magefire
Stormspire
Tolkeen when it existed.

ALL MASS PRODUCE TW items. You want to harp on one part of rules intended for use by a Player Character....in order to keep them from essentially contracting out all but the spell part of the creation..... It makes ZERO sense to the setting and what is IN the damn setting as canon but by all means die on that hill of wrong.

Its not manufacturing as we see it now it is more old fashioned cottage industry type manufacturing. The stuff that can be made without magic is and then the TW doing the magic bits just do their part likely making the same things very frequently and getting very efficient at producing them.

[Curbludgeon]

I haven't seen the part of the RAW preview that discusses relations with the Three Galaxies, but there is this quote about TW from DB5, pg 92: "The Smithy: This planet is the ruling world of the Dwarven Guildsmasters. It is filled with factories and forges that create rune weapons and other magical devices and items as well as technological items. Spaceships, vehicles, weapons and other pieces of equipment are manufactured here, most of which are exported to other worlds within the UWW. If magic could be industrialized, it would be here. (But) The magic weapons and enchanted items are still handmade". (emphasis and parenthetical mine)

That said, there are inconsistencies within the TW creation rules clearly written to have more effect on player characters than to be reflective of the setting. Starting in RMB, where it's stated that a maximum of four powers may be built into one armor or vehicle, an exception is made not 3 pages later with the Mystic Power Armor containing 13. Shortly following exceptions are the Splugorth armors largely intended for Kydians as found in WB2 and WB7.

By the time of RUE this was changed into a general guideline, per this quote from pg 133: "Note: A general limitation that should be maintained is that body armor, power armor, robots and vehicles should have no more than four Functions. This should be done to maintain game balance, although the G.M. may disregard this limitation if he feels the combination of Functions is acceptable." (emphasis mine). This is exceeded in fewer examples that I know of compared to RMB-era texts, with one being the Maximillian Armor from WB29, but it's still worth noting that the rationale is made with a focus on game over setting.

An example of the setting not restricting itself to TW construction guidelines is found in WB28. The Vehicle Assembly Buildings detailed on pp 54-5 describe crews tasked with the mundane bits of construction in groups larger than allowed in the TW Construction rules found on RUE pg 132. If more than half of the people involved in constructing an airplane's frame in no way speed up overall production then they wouldn't keep their jobs.

In that the RUE rules are clearly for individual-to-cottage scale construction, even while settings like 3G's UWW make clear full-scale mass production isn't possible there seems like there should be a little room for speeding things up at least on the non-magical end. As an example devices meant to have both conventional and TW uses can be designed taking that into account such that any outer casings don't require retrofitting. (edit:sp)

[Omegasgundam]

The larger problem is the usual issue Palladium has with trying to create large scale magic societies; if magic is impossible to industrialized, that it simply gets outproduced by mundane technology and buried in both superior numbers and likely equal quality. This is generally the first thing that gets thrown out for a reason, because the capabilities of magic frankly do not compensate for their relative cost outside of non-combat utility features. If the UWW was stuck with cottage industry for most of their civilization, then they would simply be too small a political entity to actually matter, as they simply would not have enough ships to be relevant. So either they use different construction rules, or them 'using magic instead of technology' is blatant lie due to simple economics.

[Scottbert]

I haven't seen the part of the RAW preview that discusses relations with the Three Galaxies, but there is this quote about TW from DB5, pg 92: "The Smithy: This planet is the ruling world of the Dwarven Guildsmasters. It is filled with factories and forges that create rune weapons and other magical devices and items as well as technological items. Spaceships, vehicles, weapons and other pieces of equipment are manufactured here, most of which are exported to other worlds within the UWW. If magic could be industrialized, it would be here. (But) The magic weapons and enchanted items are still handmade". (emphasis and parenthetical mine)

That said, there are inconsistencies within the TW creation rules clearly written to have more efffect on player characters than to be reflective of the setting. Starting in RMB, where it's stated that a maximum of four powers may be built into one armor or vehicle, an exception is made not 3 pages later with the Mystic Power Armor containing 13. Shortly following exceptions are the Splugorth armors largely intended for Kydians as found in WB2 and WB7.

By the time of RUE this was changed into a general guideline, per this quote from pg 133: "Note: A general limitation that should be maintained is that body armor, power armor, robots and vehicles should have no more than four Functions. This should be done to maintain game balance, although the G.M. may disregard this limitation if he feels the combination of Functions is acceptable." (emphasis mine). This is circumvented in fewer examples that I know of, with one being the Maximillian Armor from WB29, but it's still worth noting that the rationale is made with a focus on game over setting.

An example of the setting not restricting itself to TW construction guidelines is found in WB28. The Vehicle Assembly Buildings detailed on pp 54-5 describe crews tasked with the mundane bits of construction in groups larger than allowed in the TW Construction rules found on RUE pg 132. If more than half of the people involved in constructing an airplane's frame in no way speed up overall production then they wouldn't keep their jobs.

In that the RUE rules are clearly for individual-to-cottage scale construction, even while settings like 3G's UWW make clear full-scale mass production isn't possible there seems like there should be a little room for speeding things up at least on the non-magical end. As an example devices meant to have both conventional and TW uses can be designed taking that into account such that any outer casings don't require retrofitting.

This. I gave a couple examples of how this might be extrapolated from the rules earlier, but I'm sure there are others as well.
It seems a little odd that the Forge only makes pure tech and pure magic items and not TW, but I guess the logistical requirements are different for each.

The larger problem is the usual issue Palladium has with trying to create large scale magic societies; if magic is impossible to industrialized, that it simply gets outproduced by mundane technology and buried in both superior numbers and likely equal quality. This is generally the first thing that gets thrown out for a reason, because the capabilities of magic frankly do not compensate for their relative cost outside of non-combat utility features. If the UWW was stuck with cottage industry for most of their civilization, then they would simply be too small a political entity to actually matter, as they simply would not have enough ships to be relevant. So either they use different construction rules, or them 'using magic instead of technology' is blatant lie due to simple economics.

If the UWW uses magic instead of technology, then why do they have a factory making purely-tech spaceships? Sounds like they use tech AND magic, and are quite happy to industrialize and mass-produce the tech.

While I think you're right that a (humanlike) high-tech society that grows big enough could outcompete one that insists on 'only' magic, even if they count TW as magic, that doesn't seem like a situation we really have to deal with anywhere on RIFTS Earth. The Coalition is big but it's not very connected, and its actual territory is sparsely populated aside from a couple of big cities.

I was going to type a big rant here about the pros and cons of magical, magi-tech, and technological societies, but I'm not sure it's really relevant.

It does seem like, if a TW-converted vehicle, at least the 'runs on magic' part, only requires changing out the engine, then you could mass-produce basic TW vehicles by having a robotic factory assemble the entire car sans engine, and have some TWs building engines, and then at the end a TW properly installs the engine in the vehicle. I'm not sure what the equivalent for magic guns is but I'm sure there are enough incentives for places like Lazlo and Stormspire to find it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

it is also worth noting that the only part that absolutely requires a single TW is the imbuing with the spells and magic.. most of the gross assembly parts with the wire, crystals, bits of tech hardware, etc ought to be doable by any TW off a schematic or blueprint. so you could do a henry ford type assembly line with a person at every step where you have lower level TW's making the device hardware and then higher level ones at the end doing the final assemblies and addition of the magic.

As pointed out the rules very very specifically say the above isn't true. the TW has to do the construction themselves, and can 'only' get a little bit of help (5%) Per non TW helper, up to a maximum of 35%, and even THAT is hobbled by 1 helper per 2 lvls of the TW themselves.

I had this conversation with a friend the other day. Got a bit animated on Facebook. I didn't realized it came from a post here, but I actually cracked open the book and looked.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I am looking forward to the Lazlo book and to look into it, to be able to debate the finer aspects with people here.

That said, a friend and I spoke about the "Mass production" Of TW stuff the other day. We got into an argument about it. I didn't realize at the time it came from this thread. (I don't come on this forum every day any more.) But we got pretty heated going back and forth. So I'll put my observations from THAT debate, here.

1: Much of the debate I'm seeing on the Technowizardry is about the 'mass production'. And as I told my friend at the time. "It very much depends on how someone defines mass production".
Lazlo isn't pumping things out by the hundreds of millions. Rifts is a post apocalyptic setting. There's simply not THAT many people out there to buy stuff. When what you're producing 'can' only be used by a quarter of the population, your market shrinks again. But back around to the point. If you mean "Mass production" like modern day auto factories with assymbly lines punching out 100s or 1000s of items a day, 100% the same, over and over and over, then no. Lazlo (and other places) do not 'mass produce' TW items.

What I take it to mean instead..... is like someone mentioned above (Forgive me I forget whom said it) It's more like a cottage industry. like Almish furniture. It's hand crafted and pumped out in an artisin style, by Almish wood workers. They can pump them out pretty fast (Compaired to me anyway) Because that's what they do every day. They go in and make... a desk, or a chair or what have you, and after you've made that desk or chair 500 times, you're pretty good at it and can crank it out -by hand- pretty fast. Now if there's 30 other almish dude's in the work shop the 30 of you can punch out a goodly amount of furniture, even high quality. working 9-5, 5 days a week 50 weeks a year (lets give um some vacation).

I see Lazlo (and other places) "Mass production" like this. But a step up. Lazlo has their production center of the city. (What ever it's called) But they don't have one workshop with 30 Technowizards punching out 30 bits of magic tech a day. They might have 100...200... 500 different workshops with dozens of Technowizards, working on everything from Technowizard hats, to TW armor, to TW Power armor and TW bots.

Thus the city/kingdom is "Mass producing" The items. Not because it's a bunch of mundane people sitting around building them, But because they have 10,000 Technowizards each hand building them one at a time. "Wow 10,000 TW's, that's a lot man!" Well yeah. Lazlo created the art, and they're known through out the megaverse for it, and they have a population in the millions with 25% of those being mages. When you look at it that way, 10,000 TW's isn't all that many. It just seems like it at first glance.

2: Something else I took from the debate, which wasn't much liked, was that the rules for Technowizard devices is expressly clear. The Technowizard has to do the majority of the work him or her self.
They can 'only' get a little bit of help from non TW's. 5% per helper.
This 5% per helper is limited as well
You can only have one helper per two levels of the Technowizard.
AND it's capped at a total of 35% help. And to get THAT much you have to be a lvl 14 technowizard. (Who's not going to be sitting around making Technowizard ceiling fans. etc)

The book is clear the -construction- of the Technowizard device has to be done by the TW them self, and specifically states why assembly lines and what have you can not work. Yes, each and every technowizard device is like that piece of Almish furniture. They're made by hand by trained artisins whom have studied decades and decades to do what they do.

The "Mass production" comes.... from having a metric buttload of those trained artisins, because your city is the one that developed the concept, and you have MILLIONS of people there. I think someone stated the population was 3,000,000+? So at 25% that's what 750,000 mages? So if 1 in 10 mages, in the city that created technowizardry is ... infact a Technowizard, that would mean that Lazlo has 75,000 Technowizards. If we say half of them are working stiffs. I.E. not in the military or anything, that's 37,500 that go to work in the morning, make TW stuff then go home. Now lets say that for ease of math, that they take a week to make a TW thing. Yes, a TW toaster will take much less than a weekbut TW Bionics and Robots and stuff likely take more than a week and I'm just making a point. So. If we say, just for this example that each TW thing takes a week for the artisin to produce. That means, with just the simple postit math above, that lazlo is producing 1,950,000 technowizard items a year.

(( Now between you and me I'm betting they pump out stuff faster than 1 a week. I'm just making a point)

If the simple postit math above is correct... lazlo is pumping out roughly two MILLION Technowizard items a year. And yes.. that would be considered "Mass production" While still having each and every single one of them, hand made... and that 2,000,000 number is assuming only HALF Their technowizards go to work to do this and assuming each TW device takes an entire week to produce.

[Soldier of Od]

Pepsi - well put, that's exactly what I was trying to say. I haven't looked into actual numbers, but the general description of how this all works is sound.

[Orin J.]

net result for the TW-borg idea is the same either way- each piece is effectively a one-off due to the way techno-wizardry works, which means that a borg can't take advantage of the most important features of being a cyborg. like replacing components quickly and being able to source components thanks to standardized parts. you need a techno-wizard to adapt the parts into the existing techno-wizardry on the chassis.

[Curbludgeon]

I'm wondering if the TW 'Borg detailed are able to make use of toggleable TW effects via a P.P.E. Battery, or if it's more a matter of always-on effects powered by a TW generator. The former would require a little explanation of how a non-psychic/magic person can make use of TW devices, or instead if that recipients of TW bionics are limited in the same way as Tolkeen Iron Juggernauts.

In an earlier thread a couple of us were discussing the possibilities of repurposed Biowizard creatures and/or Psymbiotes to allow conventional cyborgs the potential to burn P.P.E. towards membership in Astral Realms associated with Lazlo, and possible effects such would have on that society. It seems reasonable that a Psymbiote linked to a TW cyborg (presuming that any linkage required outside that to the spinal cord can be bionically accomodated) would be able to activate TW features on their host's behalf, through Telekinesis if nothing else.

Spoiler:

Some quotes from the thread:

An idea I just had that's unrelated to the Nazca and ley lines but involves PPE sacrifice is the idea of contributing PPE to an Astral Domain as a life insurance/retirement policy. A youth that's grown up in a magical society that can use TW items might be encouraged to take part in a ritual led by a local Astral Lord/Mage and pony up a point or two. A custom spell to allow those with no magical or psychic leanings to do so could be, for example, a great way to entice borgs to work for Lazlo.

Since I see communities with a large Astral presence like Psyscape or Lazlo as encouraging experimental modes of living, maybe domain recruiters would try to get citizens to donate to the development of multiple realms. There could be a Central Receiving Realm, itself featureless with low accessibility and heavy defenses, but where contributors can teleport into it with no PPE cost before travelling to adjoining realms as either visitors or members. Maybe one realm grants usage of Group Trance and Fourth Dimension Transformation in attempts to harness an ISP-generating engine unstuck from time in creating another Psynex Entity. Another realm could be a greenhouse with extreme time dilation tended by telekinetic Astral gardeners growing the food of the far future today. A third could be where captured CS soldiers are re-educated, for whatever value of that proves most interesting.

One thing I've been considering is the usage of Psymbiotes. As a species they tend to live longer than most potential hosts, so it seems likely they can detach themselves. If that can be done without harming the host and if, when conjoined, the host being able to make use of the Psymbiote's I.S.P./P.P.E counts as a sacrifice made on the host's part (perhaps via a custom aura entanglement spell), then I could totally see Psymbiotes burning a few points on incentivizing non-psychic/magic characters to assist with their SLF cause. Considering how many psymbiotes live in the bodies of water near Lazlo I could see a lot of disillusioned participants in the Tolkeen/CS War getting ideologically swept up into joining orders such as the Liberator Psyborgs of the Aquastral Consensus when it means your down time gets spent in an Astral Heaven.

I'm inclined to say that a Psymbiote can use psionics through their host without requiring taking control of their host, but I could go either way. It's sort of irrelevant; I don't know of any penalty from a borg permanently sacrificing their last P.P.E., and the setup would work better if done before full conversion anyway. I just kinda like the idea of an increasingly militarized species ideologically butting against a transdimensional utopianism not dissimilar to their natural state before their genocide began, as they co-opt semi-religious principles to obtain aid from astrally marginalized people they're always tempted to instead coerce. For the people that want a Lazlo book to have some gritty elements behind a shiny exterior that's a situation one can sink their teeth into.

There are some other Bio-Wizard parasites and symbionts that would work in addition to Talo Mind Worms, with the main advantage in their use being that they're often cheaper. The Lobee Optos "bestows" powers where the Talo "imparts" them, and can be convinced to detach instead of requiring surgery. The Line Feeder "provides" a psionic ability which arguably qualifies while being both the cheapest and easiest symbiote to remove. While Zembakh Appendages would offend the Psymbiotes and most goody two-shoes, I could see an argument for quickly making positive use of one when removed from Splugorth forces to be seen as a noble act.

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm pretty unfamiliar with Technowizards. I kind of skimmed through the class 30 years ago and never looked at it again.
I'm curious on the "hand made" aspect of the build process, as what they are building are still metal constructs virtually identical to technological counterparts. So, at what point do they start "hand crafting". Do they have to personally smelt the ore to create the steel? Do they need to mine the ore themselves? Can they just start with refined steel that they melt down and pour into molds? Is that even considered "hand crafted", or would they need to shape the metal like a smith? The same goes for all the wires and jewels. Do they need to mine them and cut the gems themselves? That's a lot of components to acquire and had craft, and it would take years to make an item, not weeks or days. If they're just purchasing them, then they have missed the vast majority of the creation time of their item as it was completed by a large amount of other people.

[Scottbert]

I'm pretty unfamiliar with Technowizards. I kind of skimmed through the class 30 years ago and never looked at it again.
I'm curious on the "hand made" aspect of the build process, as what they are building are still metal constructs virtually identical to technological counterparts. So, at what point do they start "hand crafting". Do they have to personally smelt the ore to create the steel? Do they need to mine the ore themselves? Can they just start with refined steel that they melt down and pour into molds? Is that even considered "hand crafted", or would they need to shape the metal like a smith? The same goes for all the wires and jewels. Do they need to mine them and cut the gems themselves? That's a lot of components to acquire and had craft, and it would take years to make an item, not weeks or days. If they're just purchasing them, then they have missed the vast majority of the creation time of their item as it was completed by a large amount of other people.

The "construction time" doesn't include most of that stuff, that is, it assumes all that is done before you start. TWs often start with a technological item (gun, car, environmentally-sealed body armor...) and modify it. Such modification involves possibly removing some parts and replacing them with magic bits and bobs, or adding magic bits and bobs on. This process seems to have mechanical and magical components which are for the most part inextricable.

It's not actually described in detail, but presumably it's something like: the TW is simultaneously positioning pieces for maximum feng shui or whatever, and magically manipulating them by prodding gems and mystic bits with quantities of PPE to shape the channels the magic flows through or whatever. The part of the rules where an experienced TW can have some non-TW helpers is presumably the result of experience and planning allowing him to work out which parts of the mechanical assembly can be done purely-non-magically, with him doing the magic part of that later.

I would imagine that a workshop mass-producing TW guns has the gun parts they need ready in bulk, rather than ordering a bunch of finished technological guns and disassembling them; likewise a factory producing TW vehicles or whatever presumably assembles the chassis and and some of the electrical and mechanical bits, omitting the parts that will be filled in by techno-wizardry. Effectively, for TW construction rules purposes, the magic 'functions' are the item they're crafting, not necessarily every unrelated piece.

This raises a good point though, that this is an area where organization and scale can speed things up and do them cheaper without contradicting the TW construction rules. The individual TW is retrofitting already-made technological items, or having to find the right parts to scratch-build something. The TW factory can work out exactly which technological pieces they need and order or manufacture them by the thousands, wasting no money, time, or materials on the parts they don't need.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm pretty unfamiliar with Technowizards. I kind of skimmed through the class 30 years ago and never looked at it again.
I'm curious on the "hand made" aspect of the build process, as what they are building are still metal constructs virtually identical to technological counterparts. So, at what point do they start "hand crafting". Do they have to personally smelt the ore to create the steel? Do they need to mine the ore themselves? Can they just start with refined steel that they melt down and pour into molds? Is that even considered "hand crafted", or would they need to shape the metal like a smith? The same goes for all the wires and jewels. Do they need to mine them and cut the gems themselves? That's a lot of components to acquire and had craft, and it would take years to make an item, not weeks or days. If they're just purchasing them, then they have missed the vast majority of the creation time of their item as it was completed by a large amount of other people.

The "construction time" doesn't include most of that stuff, that is, it assumes all that is done before you start. TWs often start with a technological item (gun, car, environmentally-sealed body armor...) and modify it. Such modification involves possibly removing some parts and replacing them with magic bits and bobs, or adding magic bits and bobs on. This process seems to have mechanical and magical components which are for the most part inextricable.

It's not actually described in detail, but presumably it's something like: the TW is simultaneously positioning pieces for maximum feng shui or whatever, and magically manipulating them by prodding gems and mystic bits with quantities of PPE to shape the channels the magic flows through or whatever. The part of the rules where an experienced TW can have some non-TW helpers is presumably the result of experience and planning allowing him to work out which parts of the mechanical assembly can be done purely-non-magically, with him doing the magic part of that later.

I would imagine that a workshop mass-producing TW guns has the gun parts they need ready in bulk, rather than ordering a bunch of finished technological guns and disassembling them; likewise a factory producing TW vehicles or whatever presumably assembles the chassis and and some of the electrical and mechanical bits, omitting the parts that will be filled in by techno-wizardry. Effectively, for TW construction rules purposes, the magic 'functions' are the item they're crafting, not necessarily every unrelated piece.

This raises a good point though, that this is an area where organization and scale can speed things up and do them cheaper without contradicting the TW construction rules. The individual TW is retrofitting already-made technological items, or having to find the right parts to scratch-build something. The TW factory can work out exactly which technological pieces they need and order or manufacture them by the thousands, wasting no money, time, or materials on the parts they don't need.

Thing is, even if they have the mundane bits, that doesn't cut into construction time all that much.

Remember the part in the write up specifically stipulates that only a very very small percentage of the total build can be done by 'normal' people, and even then working in conjunction with/under the supervision of the TW.

So no, they couldn't do all the build 'except' for the 'magical part' because 'the magical part' is what takes up the vast majority of the build. You can only have one helper, per 2 lvls of the TW, and each 'helper' can only help for 5%, to a max of 35%

So even a lvl 14 TW, can only have a team of 6 helpers. And each one of them can only do 5% each.

While your point about it usually being a mechanical (Whatever) that is modified, that doesn't change the construction process.

Taking a prebuilt Laser rifle, and making it a TW Laser rifle, still takes the time as per the build table, due to exactly the sort of 'tinkering' you mentioned above.
They open it up. Pull out this thingamabob, replace it with some gaudy copper wire wrapped around this crystal... then pull out that wackadmadoodle, and replace it with a carefully modulated whatsit, etc etc etc.

You can have a rack of laser rifles you're going to turn into a TW laser rifle, but the TW still has to do all the "Magical tech" stuff inside. Your helper might be able to... cut the crystal into the proper shape... (His 5% contribution) But he can't do the "Magical what not" with in.

[Whiskeyjack]

I just had a re-read of the class, and I must say that the "hand crafted" part that is so ardently used as a defense against mass production is not actually supported by the rules and examples given in the book.
To quote some construction examples.
Tree trimmer requirements: an opal worth 500 credits, a red zircon worth 200 credits, and a clear zircon worth 10,500 credits, plus an old bicycle and some paddles.

Sky boat requirements. Several clear zircons, a red zircon and an opal worth 23,500 credits total, and an appropriate boat or ship. Note that building a boat from scratch adds 4 to 10 times and is expressly stated that building from scratch is not possible for most wizards.

Psionic mind shield requirements. Several diamonds, a blue ruby, a red zircon, a yellow garnet, and a tiger eye wort 204,000 credits total, and a suitable MDC helmet.

So the actual rules are quite clear that the actual device is not made by the TW, instead, they are taking an already pre made technological construct and adapting it to a TW device. So in the example of the tree trimmer, the shop will have 100-200 bikes hanging from racks, as well as shelves of paddles, already made by a non magical person, which they then take and turn into a TW device. From the sound of it, they would also have bins of cut gems and spools of wire all premade, again by non TWs. And every example is listed like this. They are using a pre made, non magical construct and altering it. So by the examples given, if you wanted to make a TW cyborg, you require any cyborg body, already made by a non TW factory, and the proper magical components to add to it. It's still going to take a significant amount of time to give it all the abilities you want, but the actual construction of the body, as per ALL the examples giving in the book, would be done in a standard factory.

[Sureshot]

Then riddle me this .....how is it MULTIPLE CITIES MASS PRODUCE items when by these rule MASS PRODUCTION is not possible?

I am damn sure they don't have 200 TWs JUST making magic tw widget 312 every damn day.

Lazlo
Dweomer
Arzno
Magefire
Stormspire
Tolkeen when it existed.

ALL MASS PRODUCE TW items. You want to harp on one part of rules intended for use by a Player Character....in order to keep them from essentially contracting out all but the spell part of the creation..... It makes ZERO sense to the setting and what is IN the damn setting as canon but by all means die on that hill of wrong.

Agreed and seconded. No one is saying that they need to be able to mass produce like say Triax or the CS. Yet it seems at least in the core TW seems to be the next step in making it easier to mass produce items imo. Yet somehow Lazlo either goes against canon or produces less effective items for fear or retaliation. The reasons given just do not make sense with the canon. Whiskeyjack example shows that it's not too hard to make certain tW items. I get power armor,weapons and robots. Regular items says like Tree Trimmer should not be that hard to produce.

Don't get me started on Lazlo policy of not selling magic. Why do you think that Walmart or the NRA will simply stop selling weapons because it might be used against them or for some other violent crime.

I rather not see a book for Lazlo at all if PB plans on keeping most of what is in the RAW edition goes to print.

[Orin J.]

So the actual rules are quite clear that the actual device is not made by the TW, instead, they are taking an already pre made technological construct and adapting it to a TW device. So in the example of the tree trimmer, the shop will have 100-200 bikes hanging from racks, as well as shelves of paddles, already made by a non magical person, which they then take and turn into a TW device. From the sound of it, they would also have bins of cut gems and spools of wire all premade, again by non TWs. And every example is listed like this. They are using a pre made, non magical construct and altering it. So by the examples given, if you wanted to make a TW cyborg, you require any cyborg body, already made by a non TW factory, and the proper magical components to add to it. It's still going to take a significant amount of time to give it all the abilities you want, but the actual construction of the body, as per ALL the examples giving in the book, would be done in a standard factory.

-at which point the cyborg body is extensively modified to the point of being a one-off, which was the original complaint that started this winding path of "why can't we crank out TW weapons as fast as sci-fi?" to begin with. The rebuilding of the stock body into a TW one isn't shortened at all by the fact it starts with a full cyborg body, simply because then they're tearing the thing down to replace and modify parts to putting the TW-components and PPE storage in.

[Whiskeyjack]

-at which point the cyborg body is extensively modified to the point of being a one-off, which was the original complaint that started this winding path of "why can't we crank out TW weapons as fast as sci-fi?" to begin with. The rebuilding of the stock body into a TW one isn't shortened at all by the fact it starts with a full cyborg body, simply because then they're tearing the thing down to replace and modify parts to putting the TW-components and PPE storage in.

Can you post a page where it states that any technological device used for a TW conversion is completely disassembled and rebuilt? I can find nothing of the sort in the books. The only references I can find are taking an existing technology and ADDING to it for the TW aspects.

Example: "There will always be some sort of addition to the device that symbolizes the added mystic power. For Example: A suit of armour that has the Breathe Without Air ability is likely to have an air tank and/or oxygen mask or helmet built into it. If that item is removed or destroyed, that Techno-Wizard power is lost. Impervious to Fire may mean that the armour is red in colour and has some additional gadget attached to it."

[Pepsi Jedi]

I just had a re-read of the class, and I must say that the "hand crafted" part that is so ardently used as a defense against mass production is not actually supported by the rules and examples given in the book.
To quote some construction examples.
Tree trimmer requirements: an opal worth 500 credits, a red zircon worth 200 credits, and a clear zircon worth 10,500 credits, plus an old bicycle and some paddles.

Sky boat requirements. Several clear zircons, a red zircon and an opal worth 23,500 credits total, and an appropriate boat or ship. Note that building a boat from scratch adds 4 to 10 times and is expressly stated that building from scratch is not possible for most wizards.

Psionic mind shield requirements. Several diamonds, a blue ruby, a red zircon, a yellow garnet, and a tiger eye wort 204,000 credits total, and a suitable MDC helmet.

So the actual rules are quite clear that the actual device is not made by the TW, instead, they are taking an already pre made technological construct and adapting it to a TW device. So in the example of the tree trimmer, the shop will have 100-200 bikes hanging from racks, as well as shelves of paddles, already made by a non magical person, which they then take and turn into a TW device. From the sound of it, they would also have bins of cut gems and spools of wire all premade, again by non TWs. And every example is listed like this. They are using a pre made, non magical construct and altering it. So by the examples given, if you wanted to make a TW cyborg, you require any cyborg body, already made by a non TW factory, and the proper magical components to add to it. It's still going to take a significant amount of time to give it all the abilities you want, but the actual construction of the body, as per ALL the examples giving in the book, would be done in a standard factory.

You're misunderstanding. Noone's saying they have to smelt ore into metal and then form metal into every nut, bolt, strew, etc ad infin for it to be hand made.

When an Almish carpenter goes to make a desk he doesn't head out into the forest, find a tree, cut it down by hand, drag it out of the woods with a horse to a mill, and then hand make the boards. he or she doesnn't hand make the nails that go into it. Nor did he forge his tools by hand.
He takes milled wood and crafts it into a desk, him or her self. Which is the 'hand making' part.

In your example, the 'build times' aren't the time to make the MDC helmet. It's the time it takes to take that MDC Helmet and hand craft it into a TW Device. Adding in the "Magical bits, and dodads, in a way that 'works' for Techno wizardry"

And THAT is the build time. That is the 'hand crafting'. It takes specialized knowledge to take that helmet(A part in the build), and the wires and gems(Other parts in the build) and put them together in a fashion that results inn TW devices. It's why, the rules clearly state that non TW people can only contribute 5% to the final. The 'mundane' parts are extremely small.

So yes each and everyone is hand made. Because only the technowizard can take the PARTS and combine them in a way that works as a TW Device. A mundane person could be sitting beside him or her and follow his example but it doesn't work.

How do we know?

The book tells us so. Mundane helpers can only contribute 5% each doing the most 'mundane' parts. Absolute best case senerio, each and every TW device is made an absolute minimum of 65% by the TW him or her self, with a 'team' of helpers, and even that, only a super master level TW can 'reduce' his contribution to mere 65%. (( 14th lvl) A 1st or 2nd level TW has to do 95% of it him or her self. a 3rd or 4th level has to do 90% of it themselves, etc. up to the maximum reduction of 35%

[Orin J.]

Can you post a page where it states that any technological device used for a TW conversion is completely disassembled and rebuilt? I can find nothing of the sort in the books. The only references I can find are taking an existing technology and ADDING to it for the TW aspects.

Example: "There will always be some sort of addition to the device that symbolizes the added mystic power. For Example: A suit of armour that has the Breathe Without Air ability is likely to have an air tank and/or oxygen mask or helmet built into it. If that item is removed or destroyed, that Techno-Wizard power is lost. Impervious to Fire may mean that the armour is red in colour and has some additional gadget attached to it."

for the purposes of replacing damaged parts using standardized components, is there any particular distinction you're making here? you're altering the components of the cyborg body to adapt it with TW features, the parts have been altered to accomodate those new functions, which if you're making a cyborg is likely to be fairly extensive since you need to route channels for the PPE battery and such. partially disassembling the arm and rebuilding components to make up the TW-features means that you can't remove those parts without destroying the TW-component according to the construction rules.

[Scottbert]

Yes I know that building the nonmagical base item/parts isn't part of the TW construction time, that's the point I was making in my previous post -- Even if a factory can't cut down on 'TW construction time', they can massively cut down on the prep time of obtaining/making the parts the TW starts out with. There may not be game mechanics for this but it still explains why you'd even have a factory, and what advantages 'mass production' can provide compared to cottage industry TWs.

[Armorlord]

Out of the gate, one thing rubbing me wrong is I was hoping for more expansion on the Lazlo material seen in the Rifters, rather than overwriting that material.

[Scottbert]

Out of the gate, one thing rubbing me wrong is I was hoping for more expansion on the Lazlo material seen in the Rifters, rather than overwriting that material.

The book does use and expand on the origin story, at least.

Speaking of the Rifters, does anyone know where to find the map that was obviously left out of the second one?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Out of the gate, one thing rubbing me wrong is I was hoping for more expansion on the Lazlo material seen in the Rifters, rather than overwriting that material.

This doesn't bother me. Rifter stuff isn't canon. It was a nice couple of articles but this is a full book. The Raw alone is over 100 pages, You add in art and it's going to be BIG. Just reading what people here have written about it, and at least one other book's worth of stuff hasn't been shown yet (More on the Military, spells, Gear. All missing. That's another book on it's own)

Which means we'll be getting, at least two books (Baring circumstances preventing it.) It might take 5 years (We're still waiting on Arsenal!!) But in theory we're looking at 300+ pages total.

Which to me is better than a non canon article or two in a rifter.

[guardiandashi]

in some ways I look at the TW construction as similar in some ways like the old lore and rules for how force users make items (lightsabers) in S.W. IE if you think about it building the first ones from scratch was seriously hard and only high masters could do it. but over time enough people have looked at what does and doesn't work to the point (in that setting) that it can now be done by semi trained apprentices as a rite of passage.

I would argue that TW has not been developed nearly to that level (go figure in that other setting they have been making those weapons for thousands of years depending on how you read it somewhere between 6 and 10,000 years or more) and part of the function is to take more or less standard off the shelf parts and dramatically increase the efficiency they operate at)

now if I was attempting to develop "standardized" TW things like suits of armor, power armor, robots, and Borgs one of the key things I would require would be a way to make a lot of the features "modular" to parts of the unit, and some kind of standard interface to link parts to each other.
what I mean is that you can build a certain number of features into for the sake of argument: helmet, torso, limbs etc. so lets say you build some feature into the right arm. each right arm has to be individually and essentially custom built by a TW, but there is a fairly standard connection to link that component and arm into the rest of the unit that only takes a few minutes for a trained TW to seperate, and or replace and integrate it to the new unit, this type of innovation was the start of true mass production in the world. (also getting all the production facilities to use the same standard measurements.

before that you were limited to limited interchange, where only parts from factory abc can interchange parts, or every unit is assembled from parts that are very similar but not exactly the same (within a tolerance range) and so every unit had to be tweaked and modified to work, and if you have to replace a part, it likely will need to be modified to better match the part being replaced unless you happen to be very lucky.

[Orin J.]

so your answer would be to ignore how techno-wizardry is built and desire a whole other system that doesn't work like that? i feel like the whole argument is "why can't the wizardry in techno wizardry just be quiet when we don't need it and let us make it just more technology?" in regards to the lack of proper factories.

[Whiskeyjack]

In your example, the 'build times' aren't the time to make the MDC helmet. It's the time it takes to take that MDC Helmet and hand craft it into a TW Device. Adding in the "Magical bits, and dodads, in a way that 'works' for Techno wizardry"

And THAT is the build time. That is the 'hand crafting'. It takes specialized knowledge to take that helmet(A part in the build), and the wires and gems(Other parts in the build) and put them together in a fashion that results inn TW devices. It's why, the rules clearly state that non TW people can only contribute 5% to the final. The 'mundane' parts are extremely small.

This is the exact point I was making. The examples given in the book are very much taking a mass produced technological item, and converting it into a TW item. It's been brought up several times that people are thinking of the wrong way to look at "mass production" when in fact, the examples given in the book make it clear that "hand crafted" is the term that people have been misreading. You're basically adding magical electronics and a power source to a fully functioning tech item.

[Whiskeyjack]

for the purposes of replacing damaged parts using standardized components, is there any particular distinction you're making here? you're altering the components of the cyborg body to adapt it with TW features, the parts have been altered to accomodate those new functions, which if you're making a cyborg is likely to be fairly extensive since you need to route channels for the PPE battery and such. partially disassembling the arm and rebuilding components to make up the TW-features means that you can't remove those parts without destroying the TW-component according to the construction rules.

Again, please provide a page or quote for reference.
What exactly do you mean that you can't remove an arm to work on it without destroying the component? So when building a tree trimmer you remove the handle bars from the bicycle to run wires through the frame, this destroys the device? This would mean that no TW item can ever be repaired doesn't it? Not to mention that they are technically impossible to build, as you have to remove parts to work on the item thus destroying it.
as to working on a cyborg, there doesn't seem to be any requirement that devices are complete before construction, so you could easily have it broken down into several mass produced parts ready for the TW to run the wires, gems etc through while assembling the cyborg as a whole.

[Sureshot]

So much imo needs to be rewritten.

Lazlo being surronded by enemies and thinking they don't need an army. If they think making inferior items will make their enemies think twice about invading guess again. The last thing I want to see is a repeat of mages being arrogant to a stupid degree just like the ones in Tolkeen. No one is saying become an army ready to conquer. At least show us those in charge know what they are doing

The whole " We are a center of knowledge and learning you can come and learn magic from us and pay us nicely to do so. Don't expect us to sell anything because it might be used against us or someone else" really needs to go imo. It's like Walmart or the NRA carrying guns and ammo for sale yet they won't sell them to anyone at all for fear of it being used against them or someone else. Besides major players like the CS and Triax you think Northern Gun or similar places are not doing the exact same thing.

Beef up the power of the new spells as it seems just more material that I simply will not use at the table. If a new attack spell has the same range or damage as one from the core or an existing book or worse I and probably many others fans will not waste a spell slot on them. It's like that version of Armor of Ithan that provides SDC not something I will every cast or waste a spell slot at least in an MDC world.

And before someone says it no it's not up to me to buy the book and change it to suit my needs. It's not my company or quite frankly my job to do so. I buy new sourcebooks to spend less time working as a GM to borrow as much from them written RAW possible. If the final version that goes to print remains unchanged I will either wait to buy it used or the PDF on sale.

[Orin J.]

So much imo needs to be rewritten.

Lazlo being surronded by enemies and thinking they don't need an army. If they think making inferior items will make their enemies think twice about invading guess again. The last thing I want to see is a repeat of mages being arrogant to a stupid degree just like the ones in Tolkeen. No one is saying become an army ready to conquer. At least show us those in charge know what they are doing

the problem is the coalition doesn't work if lazlo knows what it's doing. the ENTIRE premise of the coalition is that they're techno-fascists blaming magic for the evils of the world and that's somehow acceptable in RIFTs earth, and if lazlo is sitting there able to make science and magic work for everyone and still build a reasonable, modern society that premise falls apart and the CS is just unremarkably evil and ol' kev desperately doesn't want to do that for whatever reason. lazlo has to be doomed to logical failure because the coalition is suspended on disbelief and the setting can't undercut it at this point, there's too much riding on it.

sure, it's bad writing, but it always has been and it just goes ignored because deadboys look cool. the CS is a major part of what sells people on the setting and if that means everything else gets slapped around then well, that's marketing my man.

[Toc Rat]

the problem is the coalition doesn't work if lazlo knows what it's doing. the ENTIRE premise of the coalition is that they're techno-fascists blaming magic for the evils of the world and that's somehow acceptable in RIFTs earth, and if lazlo is sitting there able to make science and magic work for everyone and still build a reasonable, modern society that premise falls apart and the CS is just unremarkably evil and ol' kev desperately doesn't want to do that for whatever reason. lazlo has to be doomed to logical failure because the coalition is suspended on disbelief and the setting can't undercut it at this point, there's too much riding on it.

sure, it's bad writing, but it always has been and it just goes ignored because deadboys look cool. the CS is a major part of what sells people on the setting and if that means everything else gets slapped around then well, that's marketing my man.

Have you considered that the reason the CS is so paranoid about its citizens reading, so absolute in its control of information sources and all media, how they restrict travel, restrict and outlaw so many books, parts of history, etc...is precisely because they already know they are in the wrong? and that they don't want their citizens figuring that out? And it is that ruthless, genocidal, anti-magic, anti-alien, totalitarian approach to governing that makes them evil?

Whether or not Lazlo or anyone else for that matter, "knows what they are doing" is really irrelevant. That has nothing to do with the CS's actions and policies. The CS under the Proseks can function perfectly well as the villains of the setting with Lazlo having high technology and magic and aliens all working together. In fact, if anything, it helps to cement them as the villains of the piece. The reader can see and compare the two from the omniscient view point and form their own impression.

To put it another way, if your villain is only scary or to use your phrase remarkably evil, so long as there are no decent good guys, than they really aren't very all that good as villains, are they? The Villain should be able to be cool or not on their own merits and not need the heroes to look like buffoons. The villain should look cool because they ARE cool, not because the heroes are just that pathetic.

To use an example, the reason why Darth Vader is a cool villain ISNT because the Rebels are pathetic. He is a scary villain because he is. Same with Darth Maul. He wasn't so fearsome becasue Obi and Qui Gon were imbeciles that didn't know which end to hold a lightsaber by. He was just that much of a mysterious death machine on two legs....well up until he got his legs cut off but that's besides the point.

Does any of that make sense?

[Sureshot]

So much imo needs to be rewritten.

Lazlo being surronded by enemies and thinking they don't need an army. If they think making inferior items will make their enemies think twice about invading guess again. The last thing I want to see is a repeat of mages being arrogant to a stupid degree just like the ones in Tolkeen. No one is saying become an army ready to conquer. At least show us those in charge know what they are doing

the problem is the coalition doesn't work if lazlo knows what it's doing. the ENTIRE premise of the coalition is that they're techno-fascists blaming magic for the evils of the world and that's somehow acceptable in RIFTs earth, and if lazlo is sitting there able to make science and magic work for everyone and still build a reasonable, modern society that premise falls apart and the CS is just unremarkably evil and ol' kev desperately doesn't want to do that for whatever reason. lazlo has to be doomed to logical failure because the coalition is suspended on disbelief and the setting can't undercut it at this point, there's too much riding on it.

sure, it's bad writing, but it always has been and it just goes ignored because deadboys look cool. the CS is a major part of what sells people on the setting and if that means everything else gets slapped around then well, that's marketing my man.

Again nothing says they have to be goody two shoes of the setting. The review makes them out to as arrogant as Tolkeen mages just without an evil alignment. Which would make sense IF the Cs had not just defeated Tolkeen and essentially destroyed the city. No way in hell they would be building subpar tech and waiting to the last minute to build an army. Out in the middle of nowhere with no enemies and serious threats sure keep building tons and tons of the dreaded mega damage duct tape. I had hoped that the stupidly arrogant mage stereotype had died with the war on Tolkeen. Why Kevin insists on perpetrating it once again is beyond me. It's like say America going to fight Nazi Gernamy and Japan with World WAr I tanks and equipment even when they know it's worse than useless.

I get Toc Rat point. No need to make Lazlo look pathetic simply to make the CS look cool. We get it they are fan favorites how about more love for other factions other than the Coalition. Beyond toilet reading material or I want a serious challenge in a rifts I can't see taking anything from the Lazlo. Why would I take subpar tech etc in the first place when other better options exist.

[Orin J.]

the problem is the coalition doesn't work if lazlo knows what it's doing. the ENTIRE premise of the coalition is that they're techno-fascists blaming magic for the evils of the world and that's somehow acceptable in RIFTs earth, and if lazlo is sitting there able to make science and magic work for everyone and still build a reasonable, modern society that premise falls apart and the CS is just unremarkably evil and ol' kev desperately doesn't want to do that for whatever reason. lazlo has to be doomed to logical failure because the coalition is suspended on disbelief and the setting can't undercut it at this point, there's too much riding on it.

sure, it's bad writing, but it always has been and it just goes ignored because deadboys look cool. the CS is a major part of what sells people on the setting and if that means everything else gets slapped around then well, that's marketing my man.

Have you considered that the reason the CS is so paranoid about its citizens reading, so absolute in its control of information sources and all media, how they restrict travel, restrict and outlaw so many books, parts of history, etc...is precisely because they already know they are in the wrong? and that they don't want their citizens figuring that out? And it is that ruthless, genocidal, anti-magic, anti-alien, totalitarian approach to governing that makes them evil?

Whether or not Lazlo or anyone else for that matter, "knows what they are doing" is really irrelevant. That has nothing to do with the CS's actions and policies. The CS under the Proseks can function perfectly well as the villains of the setting with Lazlo having high technology and magic and aliens all working together. In fact, if anything, it helps to cement them as the villains of the piece. The reader can see and compare the two from the omniscient view point and form their own impression.

To put it another way, if your villain is only scary or to use your phrase remarkably evil, so long as there are no decent good guys, than they really aren't very all that good as villains, are they? The Villain should be able to be cool or not on their own merits and not need the heroes to look like buffoons. The villain should look cool because they ARE cool, not because the heroes are just that pathetic.

To use an example, the reason why Darth Vader is a cool villain ISNT because the Rebels are pathetic. He is a scary villain because he is. Same with Darth Maul. He wasn't so fearsome becasue Obi and Qui Gon were imbeciles that didn't know which end to hold a lightsaber by. He was just that much of a mysterious death machine on two legs....well up until he got his legs cut off but that's besides the point.

Does any of that make sense?

i'm sorry, i guess i was too careful about not being caustic about things. yeah, no frickin' DUH a villian that only works if the heroes are dumb is pointless- but that's the problem. the coalition isn't a very good villian. the only way to make lazlo NOT openly better than the CS is to beat them over the head with the stupid stick because the coalition is a giant mess if to even lightly scratch the surface.

these clowns literally threw enough material to rebuild the whole of chicago at tolkeen and still only eked out a win because quebec was willing to rejoin their party so long as they got some respect. they blow more money on R&D than all of northern gun and shoot their economy in the foot constantly. they invested in a massive naval force for projecting firepower and have nothing to project the fire at that's a valid target for naval units. they barely have control over the territories they claim to govern and openly refuse to care for or manage the vast majority of the populations inside of those territories. they'd be a huge eff'n joke except for the fact they look cool and that sells.

if everything is like they say, lazlo needs a huge rewrite but they won't do that because it would compromise the coalition's entire argument for why the exist because they'd be wildly better to live in or even near simply because they would have medical tech and would actually be willing to use it to help people. ever magic nation has to be slapped with the Stoopit Bat, or else they force the question of "why is anyone willing to rot in the burbs when it's safer in lazlo?" and it's a total joke. i'm hoping the final print version shows us a lazlo together enough to keep itself safe from the coalition for the same reason i'm expecting it won't and that's because it'll make the coalition argument look as pathetic in-setting as it does from the outside.

seriously, what the heck kind of plan is to recruit soldiers with the promise of family citizenship and then not provide it when you kill the soldiers? utter clownshoes operation.

[Pepsi Jedi]

So much imo needs to be rewritten.

Lazlo being surronded by enemies and thinking they don't need an army.

They have an army. Just going off what I've seen here and discussed on facebook, not only do they have an army, they have enough of an army that they can deploy it to aid others, in other dimensions. They didn't get a 'formal' army till recently, but... they have one now.

If they think making inferior items will make their enemies think twice about invading guess again

This circles back to the "Why aren't they making super tech" And that's been torn down too. They don't focus on super tech because they focus on magic and technowizardry

The last thing I want to see is a repeat of mages being arrogant to a stupid degree just like the ones in Tolkeen. No one is saying become an army ready to conquer. At least show us those in charge know what they are doing

They.... have an army. Lol
I don't have the book yet but that's been made expressly clear.

The whole " We are a center of knowledge and learning you can come and learn magic from us and pay us nicely to do so. Don't expect us to sell anything because it might be used against us or someone else" really needs to go imo. It's like Walmart or the NRA carrying guns and ammo for sale yet they won't sell them to anyone at all for fear of it being used against them or someone else. Besides major players like the CS and Triax you think Northern Gun or similar places are not doing the exact same thing.

No, It's more like taking a class on how to shoot a gun, but the same place you learned to shoot, not selling you a battle tank. Because... that tends to be a bad idea if you don't REALLY know the guy you're selling that battle tank to. Especially if they might just turn around and use it to knock over a 7-11.

The US has some pretty open gun laws but we can't have bazooka's or RPGs, or grenade launchers and a whole list of things. People act like it's crazy that "Magical-Canada' isn't just like YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH DANGEROUS MAGIC FOR EVERYONE!!!!" but... it seems fine to me.

Beef up the power of the new spells as it seems just more material that I simply will not use at the table. If a new attack spell has the same range or damage as one from the core or an existing book or worse I and probably many others fans will not waste a spell slot on them. It's like that version of Armor of Ithan that provides SDC not something I will every cast or waste a spell slot at least in an MDC world.

Again. I don't have it yet, but from reading here, and on facebook where it's been described, the writer takes time out to point out that 1) The Army, 2) Spells and 3) Gear (Techno-wizard stuff) Will come in a different book. You're complaining about what the -raw- edition specifically tells you will appear in another book. Just like they split Heroes of Humanity and Arsenal. It means people buy two Palladium books.

And before someone says it no it's not up to me to buy the book and change it to suit my needs. It's not my company or quite frankly my job to do so. I buy new sourcebooks to spend less time working as a GM to borrow as much from them written RAW possible. If the final version that goes to print remains unchanged I will either wait to buy it used or the PDF on sale.

Well you're more than welcome to provide feedback. They may even listen to feedback offered.
Thing is your feedback seems to ignore things directly stated in the book. I.E. like you didn't read what was written. So..... probably not. lol

[Pepsi Jedi]

So much imo needs to be rewritten.

Lazlo being surronded by enemies and thinking they don't need an army. If they think making inferior items will make their enemies think twice about invading guess again. The last thing I want to see is a repeat of mages being arrogant to a stupid degree just like the ones in Tolkeen. No one is saying become an army ready to conquer. At least show us those in charge know what they are doing

the problem is the coalition doesn't work if lazlo knows what it's doing. the ENTIRE premise of the coalition is that they're techno-fascists blaming magic for the evils of the world and that's somehow acceptable in RIFTs earth, and if lazlo is sitting there able to make science and magic work for everyone and still build a reasonable, modern society that premise falls apart and the CS is just unremarkably evil and ol' kev desperately doesn't want to do that for whatever reason. lazlo has to be doomed to logical failure because the coalition is suspended on disbelief and the setting can't undercut it at this point, there's too much riding on it.

sure, it's bad writing, but it always has been and it just goes ignored because deadboys look cool. the CS is a major part of what sells people on the setting and if that means everything else gets slapped around then well, that's marketing my man.

Again nothing says they have to be goody two shoes of the setting.

They choose to be. As alien as it may seem. Some people really do want to be the good guys. It may not be Edgelord and Gritty, but it exists. In Rifts it gives them something unique.

The review makes them out to as arrogant as Tolkeen mages just without an evil alignment.

Naa they're more like arrogant Ivy league grads, that really DO want to do/be good. But, being Ivy League grads, are a bit arrogant because of it.

Which would make sense IF the Cs had not just defeated Tolkeen and essentially destroyed the city.

You forget, Lazlo TOLD tokeen that would happen. They're not stupid. They begged Tolkeen to get out of the way. Tolkeen told them to get bent.

No way in hell they would be building subpar tech and waiting to the last minute to build an army.

They are 'focusing' on magic, their thing. Instead of tech. They can buy tech. lol. But I would point you at the Book of Magic and the pages on the mentality of Mages in Rifts. And how they -choose- to use magic over tech because they like it.

Out in the middle of nowhere with no enemies and serious threats sure keep building tons and tons of the dreaded mega damage duct tape. I had hoped that the stupidly arrogant mage stereotype had died with the war on Tolkeen.

But they're not 'Stupidly arrogant'. Reading on facebook they say that Lazlo's general even knows they can't survive a stand up, knock down drag out fight, so will be using different tactics.

Why Kevin insists on perpetrating it once again is beyond me.

Cuz... he's not? lol

It's like say America going to fight Nazi Gernamy and Japan with World WAr I tanks and equipment even when they know it's worse than useless.

I get Toc Rat point. No need to make Lazlo look pathetic simply to make the CS look cool.

From what I've seen they're NOT Pathetic. The book just lacks the "Oh but it's secretly run by EVVVVVVVVVVVVIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLL MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA" sorts, and people are complaining that the 'Crunch" (Spells/Weapons/gear/army) are going to be in another book. That doesn't make it pathetic. Just unwritten, or unrevealed yet.

The snippits I've seen have shown Lazlo to be pretty BA. Their 'pre-emptive attack' on Ironheart sure went off well.

We get it they are fan favorites how about more love for other factions other than the Coalition. Beyond toilet reading material or I want a serious challenge in a rifts I can't see taking anything from the Lazlo. Why would I take subpar tech etc in the first place when other better options exist.

Because.. *sighs* Lazlo is a Magic kingdom. Not a tech one. You seem to have picked up lazlo when you were reaching for NG or the Titan robotics book.

And you don't seem to have actually read the RAW Lazlo book either.

[Scottbert]

After watching this conversation go back and forth a bit more, I feel like I can kind of see what people are saying, so here's my take:

"Lazlo is dumb, and they have to be to make the Coalition look good otherwise people wouldn't stay in the Coalition"
We, the readers, know that the Coalition are the bad guys, even if they sometimes fight worse guys. Yes, Lazlo is a great place. But the Coalition population won't move there because they've been told that all nonhumans are basically demons, and magic users are at worst demon-worshipers and at best well-meaning fools who will eventually fall to corruption. (Also, because it's really hard to GO anywhere on Rifts Earth. Not like there's a highway from the 'Burbs to Lazlo...)

It would be like someone from Lazlo or Northern Gun wanting to move to Atlantis. How Atlantis (or the City of Brass) actually is is basically how CS citizens see every relatively benign magical or d-bee-friendly place.

Arguments about the formation of Lazlo's military, I again see as more of a timeline thing. They certainly have one now, they just don't want to get in a shooting war with the Coalition.

Lazlo certainly shouldn't become a shade of grey, but they can still have some flaws -- classically, they've been portrayed as slow to act and preferring to stay out of things. It seems Marc wants to change that and have Lazlo start taking a more active role, and instead give their mages a haughty attitude. I guess it can work, although I think it needs a bit more thought and to be more clearly portrayed -- it's a bit of a mood whiplash to read Erin Tarn describing how wonderfully accepting Lazlo is on one page and then how mages look down on outsiders on another page.

So, why is Lazlo not more invested in high technology? Sure, they like magic and they're one of the birthplaces of Techno-Wizardry, but only a fraction of the population are mages.
And I think the thing is they are plenty invested in high technology. They have a citywide internet and the same niceties any other high-tech city has, and their defenders and military (at least, those that aren't in themselves magical powerhouses or superpowered aliens) are armed with lasers and railguns, body armor, power armor, and giant robots just like everyone else. They have factories, and I'm sure they produce weapons, armors, computers, vehicles, and more.

It's just that Lazlo isn't known for some particular piece of technology or weapons manufacturer. Lazlo doesn't have some particular tech it's known for the same way Kingsdale has its cutting-edge Juicer conversions and Northern Gun (the state) has Northern Gun (the manufacturer.) Or rather, it does: Techno-Wizardry. If you're buying TW in the area it probably came from Lazlo. But for whatever reason, TW weapons and vehicle crafters haven't come together under a brand name -- possibly because TW itself is the innovation and they don't want to keep it a secret, they want to spread it.

Lazlo Raw Preview's vision of Lazlo having snooty mages may also be part of it, if that sticks around -- while it seems that Lazlo is less concerned about selling guns to anyone who passes through than it is about selling magic to anyone who passes through, people might look askance at someone who wants to be the next Northern Gun or Wilk's trying to get Lazlo famous for weapons. If so, then the type of people who'd start a weapons manufacturer are probably going to go elsewhere, even if they're Lazlo-educated.

[Orin J.]

*sighs* Lazlo is a Magic kingdom. Not a tech one. You seem to have picked up lazlo when you were reaching for NG or the Titan robotics book.

Both. It's both. That's where techno-wizardry comes from, combining both. Arguably the fact they're known for techno-wizardry should strongly imply they have a sufficent if not cutting edge manufacturing base for stock technical stuff and frankly science is much better than magic at the civic level simply because it's easier to hire the engineers to get your roads paved if they don't also have to be warlocks and shifters.

[Pepsi Jedi]

*sighs* Lazlo is a Magic kingdom. Not a tech one. You seem to have picked up lazlo when you were reaching for NG or the Titan robotics book.

Both. It's both. That's where techno-wizardry comes from, combining both. Arguably the fact they're known for techno-wizardry should strongly imply they have a sufficent if not cutting edge manufacturing base for stock technical stuff and frankly science is much better than magic at the civic level simply because it's easier to hire the engineers to get your roads paved if they don't also have to be warlocks and shifters.

Well yes it's both, but I consider techno-wizardry, to be 'Magic' as you have to have PPE to use it or it's just a hunk of metal and crystals that you maybe can use as a rather expensive club.
And yes they have tech, the same way that the 'other' cities in the CS have tech (People forget the CS isn't JUST the Super-city Acrologys, but have many cities through out their kingdoms). Yes lazlo "HAS" mundane tech. It just doesn't -define- itself by the mundane tech. It defines itself by it's magical and -magical-tech.
Indeed the book mentions having many factories a number of times.
They 'have' mundane tech. It's just not their driving force.

You can buy Pancakes at McDonalds but it's not Ihop or the Waffle house. You can buy a burger at Ihop, but it's probably not your go to for great burgers.

Lazlo is likely like that. You can buy your mundane tech from lazlo, but that's not why people GO to Lazlo. The people in lazlo probably dive lazlo made cars and use lazlo made toasters, but people that want a high tech robot go to NG or Titan, or barring that the Black Market. People that want Technowizardry go to Lazlo or New Lazlo, or barring that one of the Magic Kingdom. But considering the evil nature of alot of people down there.... Lazlo seems like a better option. (unless you are evil, where in you don't go into lazlo.)

As an aside, people online (Not here) have discussed how in depth the Lazlo police are. Whom ever wrote that bit thought it out. You do NOT want to be a criminal in Lazlo. You're GONNA get caught.

[Omegasgundam]

Well yes it's both, but I consider techno-wizardry, to be 'Magic' as you have to have PPE to use it or it's just a hunk of metal and crystals that you maybe can use as a rather expensive club.

Well, that's a fundamental premise that is at odds with those of the people are having problems, so any argument based on it isn't going to make much headway.

[Sureshot]

*sighs* Lazlo is a Magic kingdom. Not a tech one. You seem to have picked up lazlo when you were reaching for NG or the Titan robotics book.

Both. It's both. That's where techno-wizardry comes from, combining both. Arguably the fact they're known for techno-wizardry should strongly imply they have a sufficent if not cutting edge manufacturing base for stock technical stuff and frankly science is much better than magic at the civic level simply because it's easier to hire the engineers to get your roads paved if they don't also have to be warlocks and shifters.

Thank you and seconded. Techno-Wizardly at least as how I read it in the RUE is shown to be the perfect merging of Science and Magic. Not just magic. Now sure Lazlo is known as primairiy a magic Kingdom yet also one of the best places to see both combined together. If Stormspire can come up with some great tech why not Lazlo.

@Pepsi Jedi no I was not reaching for the NG or the Titan book nor was I expecting Lazlo to have better tech than both. Lesser tech and surrounded by enemies makes no sense to me. Again why make a world war one tank when they can easily make on M1 Abrams.

It's frustrating because magic is presented as having infinite possibilities and capabilities yet only when the villians like Tolkeen and the Splugorth create and field the tech. Being the good guy surrounded by enemies on all sides without some kind of comparable tech is suicidal imo.

Full disclosure I did not read the book as I under no circumstances will ever pay for a RAW version of any Palladium product. Or any such product from any other rpg company. If Palladium or someone else wants to pay and share a free legal copy for myself to read that is the only way. Not something I will change my mind on. Absolutely non-negotiable or up for any kind of debate. The review was very through and the person who took the time to do so has my respect and perhaps sympathy for reading such a sorucebook with so much contradictory information in it. The same way I refused to spend money on both versions of the Pathfinder playtest.

[Scottbert]

Again why make a world war one tank when they can easily make on M1 Abrams.

Why make an M1 Abrams when you can order tons of them from Golden Age Weaponsmiths, get them cheap because they're outdated, pre-MDC technology, and then TW modify them to be on par with modern high-tech tanks for a fraction of the cost of a modern combat vehicle?

Because that's one of the things the book says they do, although I don't think it provides stats for said TW tanks, leaving them for the next book.

Of course, said stats might turn out to be sub-par but I suspect that would be the author not knowing how to stat things rather than intending to make them sub-par.

[Sureshot]

Again why make a world war one tank when they can easily make on M1 Abrams.

Why make an M1 Abrams when you can order tons of them from Golden Age Weaponsmiths, get them cheap because they're outdated, pre-MDC technology, and then TW modify them to be on par with modern high-tech tanks for a fraction of the cost of a modern combat vehicle?

Because that's one of the things the book says they do, although I don't think it provides stats for said TW tanks, leaving them for the next book.

Of course, said stats might turn out to be sub-par but I suspect that would be the author not knowing how to stat things rather than intending to make them sub-par.

I forgot about GAW though I think my point still stands.

They may buy those obsolete tanks yet given how the CS has shown to have upgraded their tech and surrounded by enemies it makes no tactical let alone common sense to not at least update them so they can be at least somewhat useful in combat. If Stomspire can put Starfire cannons on an ATV Lazlo sure as hell can do so on a tank. It's one thing if they portrayed Lazlo as being poor and barely having resources it is quite the opposite.

I am not expecting Lazlo to go war with anyone I do want them to be portrayed as being competent. Given how they made the mages look like overconfident idiots during SOT, I do not want the tradition to continue with Lazlo. WE can build decent tech we won't because it may put a target on oru backs. Except the target is already their so why not at least design something that can at least hold it's own in combat. Unfortunately for Palladium they have a precedent with Stormspire. Why is the smaller kingdom better at doing so than Lazlo. They want to portay Lazlo mages with spell knowledge like Gollum from Lord of the rings with the one ring, what is stopping someone from leaving the kingdom let alone spies from doing so. The facade of being "peaceful" kingdom went the way of the Dodo when they sunk and captured parts of Iron Hearts fleet.

I have hope for the book yet until I see changes I will assume the worst.

[Pepsi Jedi]

*sighs* Lazlo is a Magic kingdom. Not a tech one. You seem to have picked up lazlo when you were reaching for NG or the Titan robotics book.

Both. It's both. That's where techno-wizardry comes from, combining both. Arguably the fact they're known for techno-wizardry should strongly imply they have a sufficent if not cutting edge manufacturing base for stock technical stuff and frankly science is much better than magic at the civic level simply because it's easier to hire the engineers to get your roads paved if they don't also have to be warlocks and shifters.

Thank you and seconded. Techno-Wizardly at least as how I read it in the RUE is shown to be the perfect merging of Science and Magic. Not just magic. Now sure Lazlo is known as primairiy a magic Kingdom yet also one of the best places to see both combined together. If Stormspire can come up with some great tech why not Lazlo.

Cute, but the entry on TW tells you differently. It straight up says one of the main benifits OF Technowizardry is it's exclusiveness. You can have the most awesome technowizard canon in the world, but unless you're a mage able to channel the PPE into it. It's a really really expensive paperweight.

It's not a 'perfect' merging in that aspect. It's restrictive by it's very nature.

Lets be honest. TW stuff is just "magic, with props" Other systems have this aspect built in for their mages. Under paradigm and foci. TW stuff does let mages get around not knowing all the spells to do stuff. but it's still just a different version of enchanted items.

@Pepsi Jedi no I was not reaching for the NG or the Titan book nor was I expecting Lazlo to have better tech than both. Lesser tech and surrounded by enemies makes no sense to me. Again why make a world war one tank when they can easily make on M1 Abrams.

Why make either one if you're raised in a magical society and can make magical power armor? Which... they do. Again you're expecting ---The MAGIC Kingdom--- to have an overt tech base.

It's frustrating because magic is presented as having infinite possibilities and capabilities yet only when the villians like Tolkeen and the Splugorth create and field the tech. Being the good guy surrounded by enemies on all sides without some kind of comparable tech is suicidal imo.

Because you're looking at it, as the guy sitting on his couch reading the book. And also reading all the books with an omnipitant viewpoint of stats, damage dice, etc.

If you read the entries in Rifts, in the Book Of magic it explains it directly. "Mages use magic because they think and feel that Magic is better." They spend much more page count on it but that's what it's boiled down to. It's an intense preference for them. So they use what they prefer. And yes, they think they're special and what they do is 'better'. Due to haaving to train decades and decades to do it.

Think about certain sword wielding knights from modern Sci Fi. Could they just pick up blaster canons and wade in like any other troop. Sure... but they seldom do. For the most part they rely on their "Magical/psionic" Abilities and... those pretty pretty swords. When absolute push comes to absolute shove, they'll pick up a blaster and blow apart a multi armed borg or something if they have to. But they think it lacks class and sophistication and -skill- to do so, and would much rather not.

Full disclosure I did not read the book as I under no circumstances will ever pay for a RAW version of any Palladium product.

Then perhaps not weigh in so heavy handed if you're speaking at best second hand?

Or any such product from any other rpg company. If Palladium or someone else wants to pay and share a free legal copy for myself to read that is the only way. Not something I will change my mind on. Absolutely non-negotiable or up for any kind of debate.

Fair, but that just affirms that you're speaking out of ignorance.

The review was very through and the person who took the time to do so has my respect and perhaps sympathy for reading such a sorucebook with so much contradictory information in it. The same way I refused to spend money on both versions of the Pathfinder playtest.

Which is fine, but at the very best you're basing your posts on second or third hand information passed through at least one if not multiple filters. I.E. you're 'reviewing' and poking holes in something just based on a review by another guy.

Buy it and read it, or don't. That's fine. I don't buy 100% of any company's product.

But then I seldom weigh in and trash stuff I won't even buy and read myself. I very much won't trash stuff based on someone elses review of it I read online. If I'm going to trash something. I'm going to make sure I know what I'm talking about.
But that's me.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Again why make a world war one tank when they can easily make on M1 Abrams.

Why make an M1 Abrams when you can order tons of them from Golden Age Weaponsmiths, get them cheap because they're outdated, pre-MDC technology, and then TW modify them to be on par with modern high-tech tanks for a fraction of the cost of a modern combat vehicle?

Because that's one of the things the book says they do, although I don't think it provides stats for said TW tanks, leaving them for the next book.

Of course, said stats might turn out to be sub-par but I suspect that would be the author not knowing how to stat things rather than intending to make them sub-par.

I forgot about GAW though I think my point still stands.

They may buy those obsolete tanks yet given how the CS has shown to have upgraded their tech and surrounded by enemies it makes no tactical let alone common sense to not at least update them so they can be at least somewhat useful in combat. If Stomspire can put Starfire cannons on an ATV Lazlo sure as hell can do so on a tank. It's one thing if they portrayed Lazlo as being poor and barely having resources it is quite the opposite.

I am not expecting Lazlo to go war with anyone I do want them to be portrayed as being competent. Given how they made the mages look like overconfident idiots during SOT, I do not want the tradition to continue with Lazlo. WE can build decent tech we won't because it may put a target on oru backs. Except the target is already their so why not at least design something that can at least hold it's own in combat. Unfortunately for Palladium they have a precedent with Stormspire. Why is the smaller kingdom better at doing so than Lazlo. They want to portay Lazlo mages with spell knowledge like Gollum from Lord of the rings with the one ring, what is stopping someone from leaving the kingdom let alone spies from doing so. The facade of being "peaceful" kingdom went the way of the Dodo when they sunk and captured parts of Iron Hearts fleet.

I have hope for the book yet until I see changes I will assume the worst.

1) You haven't read the book. So you can't really say one way or the other.
2) Just because Lazlo isn't expansionist doesn't mean they can't put boot to arse.
3) They're portrayed as competent as 'any' military is in Rifts. (Meaning that the people that have written the military stuff in the past had a few 1980s Delta Force movies to draw their 'knowlddge' base from) The lazo stuff is thought out in certain ways.
4) They do have tech. They just focus on magic.
That whole MAGIC KINGDOM thing. It's their 'thing'.
5) Just because they DON'T focus on tech doesn't make them stupid. (I refer you back to the ol 'Magic kingdom' part you seem to not internalize)
6) As to "what's stopping someone from leaving the kingdom" Question. Well there's a very large section of the book devoted to their police force, and how SNAZZY a number of magic spells and psionics are to use as police, if you welcome such things. Crime in lazlo would be quite difficult. Not immpossible. There are spies there, as there are in any city, but the combination of magic and police work is very dramatic. Add in psychics and it gets even more so. I'm not going to retype pages of information but it is addressed. Also of the OCC's we do get... half or more of them ARE different police force/functions. Some specialized. So.. it's addressed. If you buy the book you can read about it.
7) And 'peaceful' doesn't mean 'pacifistic to the point of absurdity'. One military action against a clear and present threat and aggressor that pushes back the threat for decades doesn't suddenly make them Tolkeen, letting out literal armies of demons to sick on people. It's funny because in one breath you complain they're not doing more to be smarter in their own defense, but in another try and paint them as villainous for doing so. The book states in many places that Lazlo and it's people/troops don't WANT to go to war and or fight, but if you come at them, they're going to put you in the dirt. They're painted more as the sedate and peaceful dragon. Content to live and let live. Not mess with anyone, but if you come at it with pitch forks and torches to try and kill it. It'll fry you to ashes, because YOU picked the fight.

[Mlp7029]

nother inconsistency involving magic, this one entirely internal to the book, is located on pages 11 and 12. Those pages state that the population of Lazlo is 25% magic users and 25% psychic, which means 50%. Not three paragraphs later, it states and I paraphrase here, that the majority of Lazlo’s citizens are neither psychic or magic users. This is perhaps a minor issue but for something to be called the “majority” it must be larger than 50%. In fact, going by the book definition it must be a total more than half. The greater the numbers involved, the more past half you must get. From example, with a population of 3 million, 1,500,000 (50%) are psychic or magic users. The other half would also be 1,500,000. If we play with the numbers so that the mage/psychic half is 1,499,999 and the other half is 1,500,001, yes, the non-magic/psychic half is larger but by an insignificant amount. To claim a true majority with those numbers you would need at least 30,000 more on one side or other. It would be better to say something along the lines of “fully half of Lazlo’s citizens are not magic users or psychics,” or other words to that effect.

There is no contradiction here. It just means that the mages have psychic powers as well. 25% of both populations have the other powers then the total population that is a mage is 25% x 75% = 18.75%. Same is true for the psychics so the total population the has either magic or psionics is 18.75 x 2= 37.5%. Thanks for the review my wife ordered the book for me for Xmas yesterday and I will be calling tomorrow to cancel the order.

[Mlp7029]

Where do I find the video mentioned that has Kevin talking about this book?

[Toc Rat]

https://youtu.be/KNHqRCvMi-E


Skip ahead to the 50:00 mark. Thats where he starts talking about Lazlo.