Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

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Zer0 Kay
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Another part of the creatures known as munchkins tend to argue on boards that their particular house rules, that violate what the published books literally say, say them as if they were canon. And argues vigorously against being corrected. Even when the text they are violating is first off pointed out to them. And even after having their noses rubbed in the the text they won't even admit that their opinions are just their opinions. Some are worn then other.....the really annoying ones can go on and on and on....ad-nuasium bringing up 'what ifs' that should just be handled by GMs and rehashing points that have already been debunked and trying to derail the argument into 'some other point' to distract from the current argument so they don't have to give up their ideas about what should be canon like they are doing it so they 'don't lose' the argument.

Side-note 1: If there unclear text, the munchkin's opinion will typically take the side of giving them more power.
Sidetone 2: they get really offended at being labeled as munchkins. Wish they would 'get the hint' rather than 'getting offended'.
--------
Some ways to spot a real role-player that is playing a high powered char vs M's...
---the char has the cooking skill
---the char has the 1st aid skill
---the char is literate
---the mage char has spells that are useless in combat, like the cleanse spell.
---the player has written up a background that is longer then three sentences.


Lol back in AD&D 2 I had an Avariel Palladin with a 4 page back story.
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Another part of the creatures known as munchkins tend to argue on boards that their particular house rules, that violate what the published books literally say, say them as if they were canon. And argues vigorously against being corrected. Even when the text they are violating is first off pointed out to them. And even after having their noses rubbed in the the text they won't even admit that their opinions are just their opinions. Some are worn then other.....the really annoying ones can go on and on and on....ad-nuasium bringing up 'what ifs' that should just be handled by GMs and rehashing points that have already been debunked and trying to derail the argument into 'some other point' to distract from the current argument so they don't have to give up their ideas about what should be canon like they are doing it so they 'don't lose' the argument.

Side-note 1: If there unclear text, the munchkin's opinion will typically take the side of giving them more power.
Sidetone 2: they get really offended at being labeled as munchkins. Wish they would 'get the hint' rather than 'getting offended'.
--------
Some ways to spot a real role-player that is playing a high powered char vs M's...
---the char has the cooking skill
---the char has the 1st aid skill
---the char is literate
---the mage char has spells that are useless in combat, like the cleanse spell.
---the player has written up a background that is longer then three sentences.


Lol back in AD&D 2 I had an Avariel Palladin with a 4 page back story.


We had a DM who gave XP per page. My brother and I would show up with 20 pages.
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

Each table gets to decide where such dirty power gaming :wink: falls on the Fiction/Funds/Flirting/Food bribery continuum. While as a kid 20 pages might have had a similar value as a free sandwich and a six-pack, these days I'd probably pay the player to just get the bullet points.
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Mark Hall wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Another part of the creatures known as munchkins tend to argue on boards that their particular house rules, that violate what the published books literally say, say them as if they were canon. And argues vigorously against being corrected. Even when the text they are violating is first off pointed out to them. And even after having their noses rubbed in the the text they won't even admit that their opinions are just their opinions. Some are worn then other.....the really annoying ones can go on and on and on....ad-nuasium bringing up 'what ifs' that should just be handled by GMs and rehashing points that have already been debunked and trying to derail the argument into 'some other point' to distract from the current argument so they don't have to give up their ideas about what should be canon like they are doing it so they 'don't lose' the argument.

Side-note 1: If there unclear text, the munchkin's opinion will typically take the side of giving them more power.
Sidetone 2: they get really offended at being labeled as munchkins. Wish they would 'get the hint' rather than 'getting offended'.
--------
Some ways to spot a real role-player that is playing a high powered char vs M's...
---the char has the cooking skill
---the char has the 1st aid skill
---the char is literate
---the mage char has spells that are useless in combat, like the cleanse spell.
---the player has written up a background that is longer then three sentences.


Lol back in AD&D 2 I had an Avariel Palladin with a 4 page back story.


We had a DM who gave XP per page. My brother and I would show up with 20 pages.

Freaking Awesome... with motivation like that who wouldn't. I remember with the old TSR Marvel Super Heroes they had XP for puns. I was so prodigious that my GM set a limit to try to curb by tendencies I found it harsh PUNishment it was so unfair I declared it unJOKEstified. The character had matter creation and an NPC hero told his child that money didn't grow on trees... well, until I made a tree that grew money.
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Another part of the creatures known as munchkins tend to argue on boards that their particular house rules, that violate what the published books literally say, say them as if they were canon. And argues vigorously against being corrected. Even when the text they are violating is first off pointed out to them. And even after having their noses rubbed in the the text they won't even admit that their opinions are just their opinions. Some are worn then other.....the really annoying ones can go on and on and on....ad-nuasium bringing up 'what ifs' that should just be handled by GMs and rehashing points that have already been debunked and trying to derail the argument into 'some other point' to distract from the current argument so they don't have to give up their ideas about what should be canon like they are doing it so they 'don't lose' the argument.

Side-note 1: If there unclear text, the munchkin's opinion will typically take the side of giving them more power.
Sidetone 2: they get really offended at being labeled as munchkins. Wish they would 'get the hint' rather than 'getting offended'.
--------
Some ways to spot a real role-player that is playing a high powered char vs M's...
---the char has the cooking skill
---the char has the 1st aid skill
---the char is literate
---the mage char has spells that are useless in combat, like the cleanse spell.
---the player has written up a background that is longer then three sentences.


Lol back in AD&D 2 I had an Avariel Palladin with a 4 page back story.


We had a DM who gave XP per page. My brother and I would show up with 20 pages.

Freaking Awesome... with motivation like that who wouldn't. I remember with the old TSR Marvel Super Heroes they had XP for puns. I was so prodigious that my GM set a limit to try to curb by tendencies I found it harsh PUNishment it was so unfair I declared it unJOKEstified. The character had matter creation and an NPC hero told his child that money didn't grow on trees... well, until I made a tree that grew money.


I'm not sure that I agree; players should PUNderstand is that a 20-page backstory is excessive; CRINGEcting that much extra reading into a GM's prep time is burdensome. I'd rather have a half a page on a character that addresses these questions:

1. What are your character's core values, goals and motivations?
(Should be relatable, coherent, and understandable)
2. How does your character come across to most people? (Should be somewhat distinctive; a memorable character-defining quote is often helpful here)
3. What unique capabilities/perspective does your character bring to the group? (Each character should bring something new in terms of both stats and background; this can help other players work together better)
4. How does your character want to develop? (Should include both capabilities and personal growth; can help a GM tailor rewards)
5. What are your character's flaws and weaknesses? (Should include both in terms of game mechanics and personality)
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Hotrod wrote:I'm not sure that I agree; players should PUNderstand is that a 20-page backstory is excessive; CRINGEcting that much extra reading into a GM's prep time is burdensome. I'd rather have a half a page on a character that addresses these questions:

1. What are your character's core values, goals and motivations?
(Should be relatable, coherent, and understandable)
2. How does your character come across to most people? (Should be somewhat distinctive; a memorable character-defining quote is often helpful here)
3. What unique capabilities/perspective does your character bring to the group? (Each character should bring something new in terms of both stats and background; this can help other players work together better)
4. How does your character want to develop? (Should include both capabilities and personal growth; can help a GM tailor rewards)
5. What are your character's flaws and weaknesses? (Should include both in terms of game mechanics and personality)


Ok, the highlighted one doesn't even make sense.

However, it depends on how much XP you are giving per page, and what they're doing with it. For example, I think he was around 500-1000xp per page... so a 20 page backstory was 10-20k, which would be enough to start your character as decent dual-class in 2e. At 100xp per page, it's only about 2k XP... not enough to justify a 20 page backstory.
-overproduced by Martin Hannett

When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Mark Hall wrote:
Hotrod wrote:I'm not sure that I agree; players should PUNderstand is that a 20-page backstory is excessive; CRINGEcting that much extra reading into a GM's prep time is burdensome. I'd rather have a half a page on a character that addresses these questions:

1. What are your character's core values, goals and motivations?
(Should be relatable, coherent, and understandable)
2. How does your character come across to most people? (Should be somewhat distinctive; a memorable character-defining quote is often helpful here)
3. What unique capabilities/perspective does your character bring to the group? (Each character should bring something new in terms of both stats and background; this can help other players work together better)
4. How does your character want to develop? (Should include both capabilities and personal growth; can help a GM tailor rewards)
5. What are your character's flaws and weaknesses? (Should include both in terms of game mechanics and personality)


Ok, the highlighted one doesn't even make sense.

However, it depends on how much XP you are giving per page, and what they're doing with it. For example, I think he was around 500-1000xp per page... so a 20 page backstory was 10-20k, which would be enough to start your character as decent dual-class in 2e. At 100xp per page, it's only about 2k XP... not enough to justify a 20 page backstory.

My kids cringe when I make puns. Instead of "IN-jecting," I'm "CRINGE-cting." Yeah, it's bad.

As for xp rewards during character creation, I'd rather award xp based on those five factors than on page counts. Reading something that was written to maximize its length is a chore.
Last edited by Hotrod on Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hotrod
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Hotrod wrote:As for xp rewards during character creation, I'd rather award xp based on those five factors than on page counts. Reading something that was written to maximize its length is a chore.


I used a lot of dialogue in mine... nothing stretches out a page count like dialogue. ;-)

Another reason Rifts attracts power gamers, though, is how the rules tend to be written somewhat loosely.... any place you can inject some uncertainty, you can create a stupidly powerful character. "Any magic staff" becomes "I have a Greater Rune Staff at 1st level".
-overproduced by Martin Hannett

When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Fenris2020 »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Another part of the creatures known as munchkins tend to argue on boards that their particular house rules, that violate what the published books literally say, say them as if they were canon. And argues vigorously against being corrected. Even when the text they are violating is first off pointed out to them. And even after having their noses rubbed in the the text they won't even admit that their opinions are just their opinions. Some are worn then other.....the really annoying ones can go on and on and on....ad-nuasium bringing up 'what ifs' that should just be handled by GMs and rehashing points that have already been debunked and trying to derail the argument into 'some other point' to distract from the current argument so they don't have to give up their ideas about what should be canon like they are doing it so they 'don't lose' the argument.

Side-note 1: If there unclear text, the munchkin's opinion will typically take the side of giving them more power.
Sidetone 2: they get really offended at being labeled as munchkins. Wish they would 'get the hint' rather than 'getting offended'.
--------
Some ways to spot a real role-player that is playing a high powered char vs M's...
---the char has the cooking skill
---the char has the 1st aid skill
---the char is literate
---the mage char has spells that are useless in combat, like the cleanse spell.
---the player has written up a background that is longer then three sentences.


Lol back in AD&D 2 I had an Avariel Palladin with a 4 page back story.




Your DM was very permissive.
I never allow illegal race/ class combos when I run any game, and rarely more than a page of backstory... especially for a 1st level character.
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Fenris2020 wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Another part of the creatures known as munchkins tend to argue on boards that their particular house rules, that violate what the published books literally say, say them as if they were canon. And argues vigorously against being corrected. Even when the text they are violating is first off pointed out to them. And even after having their noses rubbed in the the text they won't even admit that their opinions are just their opinions. Some are worn then other.....the really annoying ones can go on and on and on....ad-nuasium bringing up 'what ifs' that should just be handled by GMs and rehashing points that have already been debunked and trying to derail the argument into 'some other point' to distract from the current argument so they don't have to give up their ideas about what should be canon like they are doing it so they 'don't lose' the argument.

Side-note 1: If there unclear text, the munchkin's opinion will typically take the side of giving them more power.
Sidetone 2: they get really offended at being labeled as munchkins. Wish they would 'get the hint' rather than 'getting offended'.
--------
Some ways to spot a real role-player that is playing a high powered char vs M's...
---the char has the cooking skill
---the char has the 1st aid skill
---the char is literate
---the mage char has spells that are useless in combat, like the cleanse spell.
---the player has written up a background that is longer then three sentences.


Lol back in AD&D 2 I had an Avariel Palladin with a 4 page back story.




Your DM was very permissive.
I never allow illegal race/ class combos when I run any game, and rarely more than a page of backstory... especially for a 1st level character.


Thank you for making me go back through the books... unfortunately can't go back through my character... long gone. :( She wasn't a paladin she was a bladesinger from "The Complete Book of Elves" pg. 88 for some reason I've just thought of them as the paladin's of the Elven race.
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Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus
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Kept us laughing until the end. -The Fifth Business (In loving Memory of the teleport thread)
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Mark Hall wrote:
Hotrod wrote:As for xp rewards during character creation, I'd rather award xp based on those five factors than on page counts. Reading something that was written to maximize its length is a chore.


I used a lot of dialogue in mine... nothing stretches out a page count like dialogue. ;-)

Another reason Rifts attracts power gamers, though, is how the rules tend to be written somewhat loosely.... any place you can inject some uncertainty, you can create a stupidly powerful character. "Any magic staff" becomes "I have a Greater Rune Staff at 1st level".


:frust: Never thought of that... :cry:

Or loose definitions lead to:
A full size Tarocchi deck (game cards that are used for tarot, contains 78 cards)
Card Dagger (Only transforms a few of the top cards)
Infinite Deck of Cards (Deck never shrinks only the top card is pulled and the face changes)
52 Cards to the Face (Unerringly launches a full deck [type and size of deck not noted] into a person's face)

That could have been munchkin but with the other players and because it saved us. It got me props.
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper
BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid
Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech
Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus
The Zer0 of Kay, who started this fray,
Kept us laughing until the end. -The Fifth Business (In loving Memory of the teleport thread)
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Hotrod wrote:As for xp rewards during character creation, I'd rather award xp based on those five factors than on page counts. Reading something that was written to maximize its length is a chore.


I used a lot of dialogue in mine... nothing stretches out a page count like dialogue. ;-)

Another reason Rifts attracts power gamers, though, is how the rules tend to be written somewhat loosely.... any place you can inject some uncertainty, you can create a stupidly powerful character. "Any magic staff" becomes "I have a Greater Rune Staff at 1st level".


:frust: Never thought of that... :cry:

Or loose definitions lead to:
A full size Tarocchi deck (game cards that are used for tarot, contains 78 cards)
Card Dagger (Only transforms a few of the top cards)
Infinite Deck of Cards (Deck never shrinks only the top card is pulled and the face changes)
52 Cards to the Face (Unerringly launches a full deck [type and size of deck not noted] into a person's face)

That could have been munchkin but with the other players and because it saved us. It got me props.

That the PB text for rifts is written loosely has been a know factor for decades. And that same looseness has been a source of board arguments for those same decades.
----------
The PF world would not have the 52 (+1 or +2) card playing card deck that is used in the modern world. Even so, the class, which was described to have originated on the PF world in the time of a 1000 magic, uses the modern deck for its basis.
If a player would be playing this char on the PF game's world it would be meaningless to use OUR modern 52 card decks. (Except maybe to say that the GM and Player were being a bit lazy in not creating their own type of playing cards.)

Even just changing the symbols used would show they can take steps adapt a class that was written for rifts for the game it was said to have originated.
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Warshield73 »

First I just want to say that I avoided this post like the plague until now because I was certain that it was another "lets crap allover PB and their players" sort of thread. I have to say though that the OP was thoughtful and legitimately questioning and most of the posts have been interesting to read.

Father Goose wrote:Rifts is over-the-top-gonzo-deadly-plus-the-kitchen-sink, so it's not unreasonable to expect a certain amount of "go big or go home" from the players. And as Captain Malcolm Reynolds says, "if someone tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back!"

I think this nails the whole reason, plus bonus points for quoting Malcolm Reynolds.

My Position: Rifts does not attract power gamers more than any other system, but because it is a high powered and deadly setting it draws the power gamer out of even the more mild tempered player.

The example I use is Rifts Atlantis. When it came out my players were all over NA stomping CS and Xiticix (RMB version) left and right and frequently handing ARCHIE his backside. They were on the east coast so I sent them against a small group of Splugorth minions thinking they would had a 50/50 shot and they got spanked. I had to fudge a few dice rolls so they could escape and avoid a TPK. After that they leaned heavily towards power gaming for a while.

Rifts has lots of truly deadly bad guys to go against so players that want to compete will maximize there characters strengths to complete. Likewise if you are a GM and you want your players to take on these big bads you might make more powerful items or powers available to them giving the impression to the outside observer that the players are power gaming vs just playing in the story the GM is telling.

I tend to agree with many of the earlier posters that most of what is perceived power gaming is simply players using the open rule system and poor GM communication. Rifts has some aspects of balance but it comes a distant third to variety and fun.

DhAkael wrote:Yes I have had problems with "power gamers" in the past and still occasionaly do. The secret? RIDE THEM HARD when they try and pull any loop holes. AUDIT the numbers on their PC sheets at all stages of Char-gen.
..and most importantly, learn how to say "F*** NO!" to really outrageous requests / numbers.
If you are GM, you have ultimate Veto.
Period.
Full stop.
End of Line.

i have had some idiots on these forums say "oh you're a power tripping tyrant."
After 37 years of being GM / DM I have been there, seen that... I think I have the right to dictate an ultimate ceiling for power scale.
Anyone doesn't like that... they can go play Exalted or Call of Duty.

:ok: :ok:
Agree, power level needs to be set at session Zero, agreed on by all and enforced by all otherwise the story suffers.

Curbludgeon wrote:As is often the case I think Mr. Hall has succinctly described the issue. Certain games have elements conducive to power gaming sentiments baked in. Among potential factors, this can be a result of a robust character optimization mini-game as found in many d20 products, or a combination of a wide variety of character options and an increased reliance on narrative controls as found with Palladium, Cinematic Unisystem, et al. Many superhero games such as Mutants and Masterminds have both concerns.

While these conducive elements can lend to trends among players of these games, it still only really becomes an issue when a given table's communication issues lead to disparate expectations and a perceived violation of the social contract. Bringing a choleric Victorian street urchin to an interdimensional space opera can be just as disruptive as a cyborg in Ancient Egypt, and spending time detailing how one is a filthy munchkin is often more about the labeler prioritizing being insulting over helping a game stay viable.

That said there are negative behaviors to watch out for. Some people are mainly interested in being disruptive, and will entirely disregard initially agreed upon conceits. Others seem most interested in self-aggrandizement. While sometimes this is seen in players trying to embrace a particular power fantasy, the worst offenders are often GMs. This red flag can be seen in swaggering gatekeeping behavior, such as defining themselves as "real roleplayers" whom understand what the rules actually mean, even when clearly in conflict with what the rules state. Sometimes it's demonstrated by false bravado such as "What the GM says goes, period." These behaviors, while perhaps deserving of pity over the feelings of inadequacy from which this power fantasy at one remove arise, are often a clear indicator that they aren't someone worth one's limited gaming time. Even poorly concealed ulterior agendas can easily derail an activity reliant on handshake agreements, and when someone shows you who they are believe them.

I have to agree with most of this especially the underlined. If a player has a character concept in mind that just doesn't fit the campaign it can be horribly disruptive and it doesn't matter if that character is over powered or underpowered. To me this is all comes down to a session zero which is a concept I wish I had heard of when I was a new GM in high school.

Along those same lines it is critical that a GM be on the same page as his players as to what kind of game they are planning to run. I had several successful campaigns when I was young but several just died when the players just didn't like the premise.

Hotrod wrote:I'm not sure that I agree; players should PUNderstand is that a 20-page backstory is excessive; CRINGEcting that much extra reading into a GM's prep time is burdensome. I'd rather have a half a page on a character that addresses these questions:

1. What are your character's core values, goals and motivations?
(Should be relatable, coherent, and understandable)
2. How does your character come across to most people? (Should be somewhat distinctive; a memorable character-defining quote is often helpful here)
3. What unique capabilities/perspective does your character bring to the group? (Each character should bring something new in terms of both stats and background; this can help other players work together better)
4. How does your character want to develop? (Should include both capabilities and personal growth; can help a GM tailor rewards)
5. What are your character's flaws and weaknesses? (Should include both in terms of game mechanics and personality)

I tend to start players at 3rd level when I start a game. I give them all the exact same amount of XP which means some PCs are almost 4th and others are technically not 3rd yet but it gives a player some time to work with when creating a back story. I ask for most of the information above except for number 5, I prefer to work that out for myself, but I like your wording for number 4 better then how I do it so thanks I just stole that for my character creation sheet.

One thing I have that I don't see is I give bonus points for character connections. Your PC should be connected to two other players in the group and it should be tied to your reason for adventuring. If I have to have a PG meet in a bar or on a merc job again I'm going to loose me sh&%.
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Warshield73 wrote:
Hotrod wrote:I'm not sure that I agree; players should PUNderstand is that a 20-page backstory is excessive; CRINGEcting that much extra reading into a GM's prep time is burdensome. I'd rather have a half a page on a character that addresses these questions:

1. What are your character's core values, goals and motivations?
(Should be relatable, coherent, and understandable)
2. How does your character come across to most people? (Should be somewhat distinctive; a memorable character-defining quote is often helpful here)
3. What unique capabilities/perspective does your character bring to the group? (Each character should bring something new in terms of both stats and background; this can help other players work together better)
4. How does your character want to develop? (Should include both capabilities and personal growth; can help a GM tailor rewards)
5. What are your character's flaws and weaknesses? (Should include both in terms of game mechanics and personality)

I tend to start players at 3rd level when I start a game. I give them all the exact same amount of XP which means some PCs are almost 4th and others are technically not 3rd yet but it gives a player some time to work with when creating a back story. I ask for most of the information above except for number 5, I prefer to work that out for myself, but I like your wording for number 4 better then how I do it so thanks I just stole that for my character creation sheet.

One thing I have that I don't see is I give bonus points for character connections. Your PC should be connected to two other players in the group and it should be tied to your reason for adventuring. If I have to have a PG meet in a bar or on a merc job again I'm going to loose me sh&%.


Agreed, conditionally. A lot of this depends on the GM and the campaign's setup. There are plenty of ways to throw a party of strangers together that have nothing to do with mercenary work or a bar:

Victims of circumstance: This requires basically no coordination between the players and can allow pretty much any mix of characters you want. The party is thrown together by chance in a situation where survival requires cooperation. Examples: stuck on a broken ship or lifeboat, marooned together, captured by the Splugorth and sharing the same slave pen/buyer, or sharing a hiding spot/means of escape from some overpowering threat. Some examples of this are the Rocinante's crew in The Expanse, The Usual Suspects, and just about every horror movie that involves a mysterious/supernatural threat.

Shared interest/common trait: This requires the GM to give a little guidance into the character creation process, as the party members all have something in common that brings them together. It could be a shared hobby, a skill or group of skills, a common religion, a worker's union, a political ideal, a common interest in a community, or a regular poker night. Whatever it is, it brings this group of people together, and something happens that makes them all want to band together for a common purpose (a fellow stamp collector gets murdered, the local orphanage is broke, they decide they all want to go to the annual knitting conference in Lazlo together, whatever). The plot of the Blues Brothers is a good example of this.

Orders: This requires the GM to be a bit more involved, as the entire group consists of members or contractors for an organization (C.S., N.G.R., religious order, mercenary outfit, crime family, whatever), and some commander puts them together for a specific purpose. The Dirty Dozen is a good example of this.

It certainly helps to have players coordinate with each other during character creation, but it's not all that necessary.
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Warshield73 »

Hotrod wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Hotrod wrote:I'm not sure that I agree; players should PUNderstand is that a 20-page backstory is excessive; CRINGEcting that much extra reading into a GM's prep time is burdensome. I'd rather have a half a page on a character that addresses these questions:

1. What are your character's core values, goals and motivations?
(Should be relatable, coherent, and understandable)
2. How does your character come across to most people? (Should be somewhat distinctive; a memorable character-defining quote is often helpful here)
3. What unique capabilities/perspective does your character bring to the group? (Each character should bring something new in terms of both stats and background; this can help other players work together better)
4. How does your character want to develop? (Should include both capabilities and personal growth; can help a GM tailor rewards)
5. What are your character's flaws and weaknesses? (Should include both in terms of game mechanics and personality)

I tend to start players at 3rd level when I start a game. I give them all the exact same amount of XP which means some PCs are almost 4th and others are technically not 3rd yet but it gives a player some time to work with when creating a back story. I ask for most of the information above except for number 5, I prefer to work that out for myself, but I like your wording for number 4 better then how I do it so thanks I just stole that for my character creation sheet.

One thing I have that I don't see is I give bonus points for character connections. Your PC should be connected to two other players in the group and it should be tied to your reason for adventuring. If I have to have a PG meet in a bar or on a merc job again I'm going to loose me sh&%.


Agreed, conditionally. A lot of this depends on the GM and the campaign's setup. There are plenty of ways to throw a party of strangers together that have nothing to do with mercenary work or a bar:

Victims of circumstance: This requires basically no coordination between the players and can allow pretty much any mix of characters you want. The party is thrown together by chance in a situation where survival requires cooperation. Examples: stuck on a broken ship or lifeboat, marooned together, captured by the Splugorth and sharing the same slave pen/buyer, or sharing a hiding spot/means of escape from some overpowering threat. Some examples of this are the Rocinante's crew in The Expanse, The Usual Suspects, and just about every horror movie that involves a mysterious/supernatural threat.

Shared interest/common trait: This requires the GM to give a little guidance into the character creation process, as the party members all have something in common that brings them together. It could be a shared hobby, a skill or group of skills, a common religion, a worker's union, a political ideal, a common interest in a community, or a regular poker night. Whatever it is, it brings this group of people together, and something happens that makes them all want to band together for a common purpose (a fellow stamp collector gets murdered, the local orphanage is broke, they decide they all want to go to the annual knitting conference in Lazlo together, whatever). The plot of the Blues Brothers is a good example of this.

Orders: This requires the GM to be a bit more involved, as the entire group consists of members or contractors for an organization (C.S., N.G.R., religious order, mercenary outfit, crime family, whatever), and some commander puts them together for a specific purpose. The Dirty Dozen is a good example of this.

I agree that there are several ways to do this but I have done them all, several times. Now one I still use Victims of circumstance which is great if people are coming from radically different places or times. My personal favorite is to put them on a ship, space or ocean going, and have the ship attacked or crashing. Works great but as a GM it is a lot easier if the PCs come up with their connections and why they are adventuring.

Hotrod wrote:It certainly helps to have players coordinate with each other during character creation, but it's not all that necessary.

I disagree here. The more players discuss the campaign and the kind of characters they want to play the more likely they are to have fun and for the campaign to last.
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Hotrod wrote:As for xp rewards during character creation, I'd rather award xp based on those five factors than on page counts. Reading something that was written to maximize its length is a chore.


I used a lot of dialogue in mine... nothing stretches out a page count like dialogue. ;-)

Another reason Rifts attracts power gamers, though, is how the rules tend to be written somewhat loosely.... any place you can inject some uncertainty, you can create a stupidly powerful character. "Any magic staff" becomes "I have a Greater Rune Staff at 1st level".


:frust: Never thought of that... :cry:

Or loose definitions lead to:
A full size Tarocchi deck (game cards that are used for tarot, contains 78 cards)
Card Dagger (Only transforms a few of the top cards)
Infinite Deck of Cards (Deck never shrinks only the top card is pulled and the face changes)
52 Cards to the Face (Unerringly launches a full deck [type and size of deck not noted] into a person's face)

That could have been munchkin but with the other players and because it saved us. It got me props.

That the PB text for rifts is written loosely has been a know factor for decades. And that same looseness has been a source of board arguments for those same decades.
----------
The PF world would not have the 52 (+1 or +2) card playing card deck that is used in the modern world. Even so, the class, which was described to have originated on the PF world in the time of a 1000 magic, uses the modern deck for its basis.
If a player would be playing this char on the PF game's world it would be meaningless to use OUR modern 52 card decks. (Except maybe to say that the GM and Player were being a bit lazy in not creating their own type of playing cards.)

Even just changing the symbols used would show they can take steps adapt a class that was written for rifts for the game it was said to have originated.


Excellent point... for all we know the decks in PF are Gwent ;) or giant old school MtG decks with no cap other than must be able to shuffle.
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Warshield73 wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:One thing I have that I don't see is I give bonus points for character connections. Your PC should be connected to two other players in the group and it should be tied to your reason for adventuring. If I have to have a PG meet in a bar or on a merc job again I'm going to loose me sh&%.


Agreed, conditionally. A lot of this depends on the GM and the campaign's setup. There are plenty of ways to throw a party of strangers together that have nothing to do with mercenary work or a bar:

Victims of circumstance: This requires basically no coordination between the players and can allow pretty much any mix of characters you want. The party is thrown together by chance in a situation where survival requires cooperation. Examples: stuck on a broken ship or lifeboat, marooned together, captured by the Splugorth and sharing the same slave pen/buyer, or sharing a hiding spot/means of escape from some overpowering threat. Some examples of this are the Rocinante's crew in The Expanse, The Usual Suspects, and just about every horror movie that involves a mysterious/supernatural threat.

Shared interest/common trait: This requires the GM to give a little guidance into the character creation process, as the party members all have something in common that brings them together. It could be a shared hobby, a skill or group of skills, a common religion, a worker's union, a political ideal, a common interest in a community, or a regular poker night. Whatever it is, it brings this group of people together, and something happens that makes them all want to band together for a common purpose (a fellow stamp collector gets murdered, the local orphanage is broke, they decide they all want to go to the annual knitting conference in Lazlo together, whatever). The plot of the Blues Brothers is a good example of this.

Orders: This requires the GM to be a bit more involved, as the entire group consists of members or contractors for an organization (C.S., N.G.R., religious order, mercenary outfit, crime family, whatever), and some commander puts them together for a specific purpose. The Dirty Dozen is a good example of this.

I agree that there are several ways to do this but I have done them all, several times. Now one I still use Victims of circumstance which is great if people are coming from radically different places or times. My personal favorite is to put them on a ship, space or ocean going, and have the ship attacked or crashing. Works great but as a GM it is a lot easier if the PCs come up with their connections and why they are adventuring.

Hotrod wrote:It certainly helps to have players coordinate with each other during character creation, but it's not all that necessary.

I disagree here. The more players discuss the campaign and the kind of characters they want to play the more likely they are to have fun and for the campaign to last.


Our positions are entirely compatible. It's not necessary for players to coordinate with each other during character creation, but doing so tends to improve the gaming experience for all involved.
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Fenris2020 »

I generally just tell my players to make the characters they want to play; that's regardless of game.
Games are played for fun; as long as it's not some munchkin crap, and as long as the few restrictions I state are followed, and everyone's enjoying themselves I don't care fif someone wants to play a Mega-Juicer instead of a regular one.
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Fenris2020 wrote:I generally just tell my players to make the characters they want to play; that's regardless of game.
Games are played for fun; as long as it's not some munchkin crap, and as long as the few restrictions I state are followed, and everyone's enjoying themselves I don't care fif someone wants to play a Mega-Juicer instead of a regular one.



I think it's reasonable to put out some guidelines, especially if the GM is putting together some planned adventures. Some examples:

The GM is planning a series of adventures centered on Coalition characters, so players should play humans, Lone Star engineered mutant animals, or psi-stalkers, and they should select O.C.C.'s appropriate for members of the Coalition military/government. No magic O.C.C.'s or debees.

The party will begin its adventures in Rifts: England, and its members will be born and raised in New Camelot. Characters may select any O.C.C. or R.C.C. from Rifts England and any magic/adventurer O.C.C. from RUE. Equipment should be Europe-centric, and high-tech should be either pre-Rifts or Triax exports.

The party will begin as gladiator slaves of the Splugorth. All characters will be intrinsically M.D.C. characters (no hit points/S.D.C.), and they can be of almost any race and occupation from around the Megaverse that could credibly fight in the Splugorth arenas. No dragon hatchlings, vampires, tech-based characters, or characters with powers that would make escaping captivity/Atlantis trivial.

The party is part of a holy quest to recover sacred relics of [PANTHEON] that will, once assembled together, allow something awesome to happen. Demigod children of that pantheon and minions of that pantheon are preferred, but any O.C.C. specifically sponsored by at least one of that pantheon's deities is ok. Other characters must at least worship one of the gods of that pantheon and have some sort of powers bestowed upon them (priest or bestowed ability class).
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Hotrod wrote:
Fenris2020 wrote:I generally just tell my players to make the characters they want to play; that's regardless of game.
Games are played for fun; as long as it's not some munchkin crap, and as long as the few restrictions I state are followed, and everyone's enjoying themselves I don't care fif someone wants to play a Mega-Juicer instead of a regular one.



I think it's reasonable to put out some guidelines, especially if the GM is putting together some planned adventures. Some examples:

The GM is planning a series of adventures centered on Coalition characters, so players should play humans, Lone Star engineered mutant animals, or psi-stalkers, and they should select O.C.C.'s appropriate for members of the Coalition military/government. No magic O.C.C.'s or debees.

The party will begin its adventures in Rifts: England, and its members will be born and raised in New Camelot. Characters may select any O.C.C. or R.C.C. from Rifts England and any magic/adventurer O.C.C. from RUE. Equipment should be Europe-centric, and high-tech should be either pre-Rifts or Triax exports.

The party will begin as gladiator slaves of the Splugorth. All characters will be intrinsically M.D.C. characters (no hit points/S.D.C.), and they can be of almost any race and occupation from around the Megaverse that could credibly fight in the Splugorth arenas. No dragon hatchlings, vampires, tech-based characters, or characters with powers that would make escaping captivity/Atlantis trivial.

The party is part of a holy quest to recover sacred relics of [PANTHEON] that will, once assembled together, allow something awesome to happen. Demigod children of that pantheon and minions of that pantheon are preferred, but any O.C.C. specifically sponsored by at least one of that pantheon's deities is ok. Other characters must at least worship one of the gods of that pantheon and have some sort of powers bestowed upon them (priest or bestowed ability class).


I tend to agree with Hotrod on this; the most fun games I've been involved in gave guidelines for what the GM wanted and expected. Those guidelines can be incredibly broad, or they can be narrow, but if I'm planning on running a City Rat game, then the guy who insists on playing a Cosmo-Knight is really gonna mess up anything I have planned.
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Daniel Stoker »

I agree with Mark agreeing with Hotrod. One thing I found worked best was having a game idea and letting the players know in advance what the general idea was and then let them tell me what they wanted to play and work with them and the other players so unless they REALLY wanted it we didn't get the Vagabond on the mission to take out a Dominator with the LizardMage, the Near adult dragon, and the Godling. Though we did do a game like that once and it was fun watching the others trying to keep the Vagabond alive because of the 'gene seed' he was carrying that they could use to poison the Dominator, and the healing they had to work out to keep him alive when it burst from his chest.


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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by VR Dragon »

What you call power gamers I call players who like to have more options beyond a basic human with a simple gun and simple armor. I am glad to say I am a power gamer. I like playing larger than life characters with more going for them than just the standards mortal limitations.

I like the adventures of a super man hero in a spider man world.

To each their own. I do have my own limits that some GMs have crossed that sent me running for the hills. The is larger than life then there is just plain silly and insane.
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Something else occurs to me... the broadness of the setting is such that you can pretty easily say "Yes, I know that WB4 says Mind Bleeders are non-human D-bees, but MY person happens to be from another dimension where humans have mind bleeder powers. Very rare. That's why my next 17 characters will all be from that dimension. Coincidentally."

There's very few combinations you can't justify by saying "Yeah, but in another dimension..."
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Re: Why are there so many power gamers for Rifts?

Unread post by Sureshot »

slight off topic the term gatekeeping is thrown around way too much by some in the hobby. I could understand if gamer x because of their race, gender or preferred version of an rpg is continually turned away from gaming tables because of it. One bad incident and it's 1000% proof postive that gatekeeping is not only alive and well in the hobby. Their is also a concentrated effort by the majority to do so. By that logic because I used cheesy pick-uo lines on dates and was shot down then it's a women gatekeeping me from the dating scene. One bad incident at a gaming table does not gatekeeping make.
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