Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Ley Line walkers, Juicers, Coalition Troops, Samas, Tolkeen, & The Federation Of Magic. Come together here to discuss all things Rifts®.

Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones

Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Yes
2
6%
No
28
82%
Not Sure/Other
4
12%
 
Total votes: 34

User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7655
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Killer Cyborg wrote:Exactly.
So what you're trying to do is to claim because the guns are "similar," but different sizes, they likely use the same ammo.
Which makes no sense.

The claim isn't without justification. In universe the x3 Shem guns are of different size and use the same ammo. The Shem guns are also described as being similar to the BG with differences being noted. Those differences do not include anything about the ammo. Which suggests they are compatible.

Then there are weapons even in real life that are of different sizes but can fire the same ammo. Adding additional precedent.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Both .410s and 12-gauges are designed to fire shotgun shells.
Nothing about that suggests that they're the same size.

Ammunition though is usually described with a measurement that would allow one to distinguish between sizes. The problem is that Palladium hasn't provided any measurement on the caliber the Shem-4000/6000/6070 & Titan use, not to mention countless other weapons in the Rifts setting (the RG-14 we can workout from the lineart and its "stated" measurement of the length).

That adds up to more of a GM's call in allowing compatibility in some areas. The question is how much of a case can be made to support the compatibility vs incompatibility. In game we have several factors pointing toward compatibility, and far fewer toward incompatibility.

Killer Cyborg wrote:That one's not an argument that I've made nor care about, so I won't defend it.
The only argument needed is that it's a completely unfounded assumption to believe that Palladium intended these two weapons to have compatible ammunition, and the only clue they left was a note somewhere that the weapons were "similar."

True, but it does show that Archie is willing to have the Shemarrians use "Earth" standard rounds in their weapons instead of reinventing the wheel (so the speak, several of the Shem weapons are basically cosmetic knockoffs of existing designs per text). Which provides support to having the Shem/BG using compatible ammo.

Note I am just looking at the ammo being compatible for the various weapons, not that the ammo is identical in all aspects.

Killer Cyborg wrote:No idea what you're trying to say with that list.
Do all those weapons specify that they can't use GB rounds or something...?

This is a list of weapon systems that specify a SPECIFIC type of ammo they can use that is different than stock guns (ex. Wilk's L-20 uses stock Eclips, but an Arkon Tri-Beam weapon uses Arkhon specific Eclips).

The list establishes Precedent that if a Weapon's ammo is restricted it is noted. The only restriction on the Shem/BG railguns is they fire a canister-flechette instead of a standard railgun round (as the CR-40 or NG-101/202 railguns for ex). That suggests they are compatible.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Nothing really exists that establishes that the two guns can't fly you to the moon either, there's just no reason to assume that they can.

Well you could potentially use them to fly you to the Moon given the right circumstances, though I think its one of those obvious things they shouldn't have to state. Though I haven't tried to work out the math, but in space it would seem possible (you'd likely have to exhaust all your ammo) for the RG-14, the Shem's have recoil suppression so I'm less sure on them.
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 28149
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

ShadowLogan wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Exactly.
So what you're trying to do is to claim because the guns are "similar," but different sizes, they likely use the same ammo.
Which makes no sense.

The claim isn't without justification. In universe the x3 Shem guns are of different size and use the same ammo. The Shem guns are also described as being similar to the BG with differences being noted. Those differences do not include anything about the ammo. Which suggests they are compatible.


No, there is absolutely NOTHING about saying "these guns are similar" that indicates that they can use the same ammo.
A Saiga-12 and an AK-47 are VERY similar, but they can't use the same ammo.
The world of weaponry is chock FULL of weapons that are similar, but that don't use the same ammo.
Using the same ammo is statistically rare when discussing weapons that are similar.

Then there are weapons even in real life that are of different sizes but can fire the same ammo. Adding additional precedent.


Yes, there are, but they are the exceptions to the norm.
Of ALL the countless guns that a .357 revolver is similar to--and I'm talking literally thousands of weapons--it can use the ammunition of the fraction of those weapons that use .357 or .38 rounds.
That's it.
It's a tiny, tiny percentage of the whole.
It's nowhere near a basis for assuming solely because two weapons are "similar" that they can use the same ammo.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Both .410s and 12-gauges are designed to fire shotgun shells.
Nothing about that suggests that they're the same size.

Ammunition though is usually described with a measurement that would allow one to distinguish between sizes. The problem is that Palladium hasn't provided any measurement on the caliber the Shem-4000/6000/6070 & Titan use, not to mention countless other weapons in the Rifts setting (the RG-14 we can workout from the lineart and its "stated" measurement of the length).


Tha's one of the things that's working against what you want, because what it means is that because we have no idea what these ammo sizes are, the odds of them being compatible is extremely unlikely.
The lack of size description is one reason why Palladium--IF they wanted these ammos to be compatible--would have to flat-out tell us that they were compatible if that's how Palladium wanted things to work.

That adds up to more of a GM's call in allowing compatibility in some areas.


A GM could rule that a Boom Gun can fire goldfish crackers.
But it wouldn't make very much sense.

The question is how much of a case can be made to support the compatibility vs incompatibility. In game we have several factors pointing toward compatibility, and far fewer toward incompatibility.


You have no factors suggesting compatibility.
You have one factor allowing for the possibility of compatibility, and that factor nets out as "it's never been specifically ruled out."
That's it.

Archie is willing to have the Shemarrians use "Earth" standard rounds in their weapons instead of reinventing the wheel (so the speak, several of the Shem weapons are basically cosmetic knockoffs of existing designs per text). Which provides support to having the Shem/BG using compatible ammo.


No, it doesn't.
In order to support them having compatibility, you have to find something that makes sense ONLY or ESPECIALLY in the case of compatibility.
You haven't come up with that kind of thing.
All you've come up with is stuff that allows for a remote possibility, and that's not the same as supporting the likelihood of that possibility.

Killer Cyborg wrote:No idea what you're trying to say with that list.
Do all those weapons specify that they can't use GB rounds or something...?

This is a list of weapon systems that specify a SPECIFIC type of ammo they can use that is different than stock guns (ex. Wilk's L-20 uses stock Eclips, but an Arkon Tri-Beam weapon uses Arkhon specific Eclips).

The list establishes Precedent that if a Weapon's ammo is restricted it is noted.


How on Earth do you figure?
I mean, for one thing, a bunch of stuff on your list uses e-clips, for which there actually IS a standard. You could argue that any deviation from the standard should be noted, but what that would net you here is that unless otherwise noted, Shemarrian guns and Boom Guns would use standard rail gun ammunition.
But it IS otherwise noted, and that no more means that those two exceptions to the standard are compatible than that Mechanoid E-Clips and Arkhon E-Clips are compatible, just because both are non-standard E-clips.

The only restriction on the Shem/BG railguns is they fire a canister-flechette instead of a standard railgun round (as the CR-40 or NG-101/202 railguns for ex). That suggests they are compatible.


Not in the slightest.
The odds of two non-standard ammo types being compatible are extremely low.

Edit:
You know what?
Just go to a gun store, ANY gun store (not just the gun counter at a larger store), walk up to the counter and ask the clerk,
If all you knew about two different guns was that somebody described them as being 'similar' to one another, what are the odds that one of these guns would be able to use the other gun's ammo?
Let me know what he says.
Last edited by Killer Cyborg on Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
Sureshot
Champion
Posts: 2520
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:42 pm
Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
Location: Montreal, Quebec

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Sureshot »

I voted other. Meaning if the group had say a Operator or similar OCC with some skill rolls a limited amount could be made compatible. Certainly not the 100 round max that the GB has.
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.
Colonel_Tetsuya
Champion
Posts: 2172
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

I’d also point out that at no point i can recall has there been “standard railgun ammunition”. Closest you get is that all (coil-gun-like) machine-gun style Railguns use ammo similar enough that it is super easy to manufacture and relatively the same price. (Probably because for those guns its just steel balls or rings you could pump out in massive numbers in every conceivable caliber with a simple 19th century tech level workshop - all you need is a crucible to melt the steel and some molds.)

There is never any intimation that they are all the same caliber and compatible; in fact, in the descriptions of several NG guns it clearly intimates that some guns clearly use different size ammunition (thats why some of the NG guns inflict more damage - “larger, more powerful ammo”). Some guns also use specialized ammo, full stop (one of the guns in the NG books uses smaller bursts of explosive rounds as its ammo; there is no indication at all that it can use other ammunition).

IIRC the USA SAMAS uses a higher caliber round and a higher rate of fire to achieve its higher damage, for instance (1d6/rnd, 1d6x10 per burst), and specifically mentions that the C40R that the CS uses was subbed in precisely because it uses less resources and the CS felt the tradeoff was worth it.

If anything, the ONLY guns that have interchangeable “ammo” is energy weapons, via E-clips (even though the art shows otherwise, but the “they are interchangeable” statement is clear and unequivocal and overrides the art.)

Launched Grenades are also not a universal ammo - they only fit the launcher they were designed for, and there is even a TW Grenade Launcher in Merc Ops thats claim to fame is it accepts any grenade - because MAGIC! - and thats a HUGE selling point for the weapon.

Couple of other errors:

The 3 Shem Railguns are not “3 different railguns”; they are three versions of the *same* gun; much like i can buy the parts to make an AR-15 based rifle into a Carbine (the M4) or fit a longer barrel and improved stock to make it a better marksmans weapon (which the Army did for awhile before switching back to an M14 based DMR). The functional parts of the weapon are all the dame, though, same with the 3 versions of the Shem railgun. Its the same weapon in Carbine, Standard, and Long-barrelled versions.

The Shemarian (non-railgun) weapons are NOT retooled/reskinned existing weapons. They are advanced NEMA designs that never saw production that Archie dusted off (similar to or from the same base designs the Republicans produced in Factory 7) and gussied up to look alien. They are a lot more advanced than Earth Weapons in most cases (take a look at that Particle Beam Rifle...).

Ill have to grab my Shem Nation book later to check the 30.06 entry, but i think Archie made it seem as if this design has been “modified” by the Shem since coming to Earth because their hunters can then more easily trade for ammo when away from home (as the Male Shem hunters often trade with outsiders), and that it would appear to have probably used different ammunition in its “default” state. This is not something that would be an issue for a race with competent armorers. Re-chambering a rifle isnt THAT hard.

Edit - Nope, that was me implying. It is implied (not in the actual weapon description, but in the expanded fluff about how and why Archie and Hagan added males and other parts of the Shem scoiety to make it more real) that the gun is Shem in manufacture, but of *local* construction, since coming to earth, because they needed a weapon that wouldnt atomize their non MDC prey. 30.06 was used because they could then re-supply by trading with locals while out abroad.

I also dont think Mini-missiles can be used as an argument since, at least in Rifts, EVERY missile from literally ANYWHERE will work in any launcher ofmthe right size - even Three Galaxies mini missiles will slot right into an Earth mini missile launcher with no modifications. The only exceptions are Naruni Micro Missiles (which are not truly Mini-Missiles) and Cruise Missiles (as Earth has no launchers large enough).
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7655
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Killer Cyborg wrote:No, there is absolutely NOTHING about saying "these guns are similar" that indicates that they can use the same ammo.

I have to disagree, the text specifically states how the various guns are different and ammunition itself never comes up. Otherwise there is no reason IMHO to even bring up the BG in relation to the Shem. weapons. We are even told "Though the two weapons operate on the same principle" (ShN pg56), ammunition never comes up. How down to nitty gritty "same principle" works out to can include ammunition size.

The standard Shemarrian has a mass of 405kg (no mount), and their Railgun has a "suppressor system that lessens the recoil and muffles the sonic boom." We know a Glitterboy has a fully load mass of 1.2tons (1,200kg), nearly x3 that of a standard Shemarrian and it's RG-14 generates recoil that it needs specialized hardware to avoid being knocked around. If you wanted a lighter object (w/~80% the height) to handle a Boomgun, but without the thruster/pylon system you'd install a recoil suppression system wouldn't you (assuming you don't have access to some of the advanced alien tech some other parties have)?

Killer Cyborg wrote:Tha's one of the things that's working against what you want, because what it means is that because we have no idea what these ammo sizes are, the odds of them being compatible is extremely unlikely.
The lack of size description is one reason why Palladium--IF they wanted these ammos to be compatible--would have to flat-out tell us that they were compatible if that's how Palladium wanted things to work.

I have to disagree. The fact that the size is omitted works for the idea they are compatible because Palladium has a track record of calling out such restrictions on ammunition. Since the only restriction about the ammunition to date in all these cases is the same, it stands to reason they view them as compatible OR expected it to be a non-issue .

Killer Cyborg wrote:How on Earth do you figure?
I mean, for one thing, a bunch of stuff on your list uses e-clips, for which there actually IS a standard. You could argue that any deviation from the standard should be noted, but what that would net you here is that unless otherwise noted, Shemarrian guns and Boom Guns would use standard rail gun ammunition.
But it IS otherwise noted, and that no more means that those two exceptions to the standard are compatible than that Mechanoid E-Clips and Arkhon E-Clips are compatible, just because both are non-standard E-clips.

Yes you have standard Eclips, but you also have Eclips that are restricted to certain weapons and it being clearly stated. Which is the main point of the list, that when Palladium intends for their to be a restriction on what ammo you can use it is clearly stated somewhere. E-Clips are a form of ammunition, w/o them some weapons are no better than expensive clubs

It is noted however that the Shem and BG do not use standard rail gun ammunition in text (we can all agree on that I think). Said text indicates they fire the same ammunition type (we all agree on that). Said text does not say they are restricted further to (essentially) KLS or Cyberworks (or Naruni) ammunition of this type. It isn't even implied since a common measurement of ammunition isn't used to describe both weapons, which IMHO points toward compatibility for KLS and Cyberworks (maybe not Naurni).
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 28149
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

ShadowLogan wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:No, there is absolutely NOTHING about saying "these guns are similar" that indicates that they can use the same ammo.

I have to disagree, the text specifically states how the various guns are different and ammunition itself never comes up.


I must have missed the part where the books specifically list all the differences.
Want to quote it to me?

Otherwise there is no reason IMHO to even bring up the BG in relation to the Shem. weapons.


Except that they're both powerful single-shot rail guns, when every other rail gun in the RMB and SB1 were machine-gun type weapons.

How down to nitty gritty "same principle" works out to can include ammunition size.


"Same principle" equals "both are shotgun-style railguns."
You know what else works on "the same principle" as each other?
Spoiler:
All real-world firearms.


The standard Shemarrian has a mass of 405kg (no mount), and their Railgun has a "suppressor system that lessens the recoil and muffles the sonic boom." We know a Glitterboy has a fully load mass of 1.2tons (1,200kg), nearly x3 that of a standard Shemarrian and it's RG-14 generates recoil that it needs specialized hardware to avoid being knocked around. If you wanted a lighter object (w/~80% the height) to handle a Boomgun, but without the thruster/pylon system you'd install a recoil suppression system wouldn't you (assuming you don't have access to some of the advanced alien tech some other parties have)?


You know who else would want that?
Pretty much anybody with any big gun.

The fact that the size is omitted works for the idea they are compatible because Palladium has a track record of calling out such restrictions on ammunition.


Already covered.
They note when ammunition is non-standard.
That's all.

Killer Cyborg wrote:How on Earth do you figure?
I mean, for one thing, a bunch of stuff on your list uses e-clips, for which there actually IS a standard. You could argue that any deviation from the standard should be noted, but what that would net you here is that unless otherwise noted, Shemarrian guns and Boom Guns would use standard rail gun ammunition.
But it IS otherwise noted, and that no more means that those two exceptions to the standard are compatible than that Mechanoid E-Clips and Arkhon E-Clips are compatible, just because both are non-standard E-clips.

Yes you have standard Eclips, but you also have Eclips that are restricted to certain weapons and it being clearly stated.


I believe that I just covered that: because there are standard e-clips, nonstandard e-clips are noted.

Which is the main point of the list, that when Palladium intends for their to be a restriction on what ammo you can use it is clearly stated somewhere.


So since the T-16 doesn't mention that it can't use Naruni Plasma Rounds, or Boom Gun ammo, then it probably can.
Seems reasonable.
"roll:

It is noted however that the Shem and BG do not use standard rail gun ammunition in text (we can all agree on that I think).


True.

Said text indicates they fire the same ammunition type (we all agree on that).


Depending on what you mean by type, sure.

Said text does not say they are restricted further to (essentially) KLS or Cyberworks (or Naruni) ammunition of this type. It isn't even implied since a common measurement of ammunition isn't used to describe both weapons, which IMHO points toward compatibility for KLS and Cyberworks (maybe not Naurni).


Again, you're not using the phrase "points toward" correctly.
You're using it to mean "not necessarily strictly impossible," but it doesn't mean that.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7655
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Killer Cyborg wrote:I must have missed the part where the books specifically list all the differences.
Want to quote it to me?

I have quoted them before, but I'll do it again and in no particular order:
-Seine on Tolken #4 pg107: "These heavy-duty weapons are similar to Glitter Boy Boom Guns except they are lighter and more slender." Here the text illustrates exceptions to their similarity, the RG-14 then is heavier and less "slender" in comparison. Those are two differences specifically called out.
-SoT4 pg 107 (and Source Book 1 Original pg91): "This electromagnetic mass driver system is similar to that of the Glitter Boy Boom Gun. Although the basic principles are the same, this weapon is designed for accuracy rather than destructive power and has a suppressor system that lessens the recoil and muffles the sonic boom (the shot is still extremely loud, like that of a shotgun or small explosion). Here the text illustrates at this weapon is designed for accuracy*, less damage**, a different approach to recoil management (since the thruster pack/pylons aren't part of the user), and a muffler for the sonic boom***.
-Shemarrian Nation pg56: "... the Shemarrian Rail Gun is a magnificent weapon that utilizes an electromagnetic mass-driver system similar to the one used by the Glitter Boy's boom Gun. [at this point it's a copy/paste of previous text]".
-MercOps pg84 makes identical statements in the description of the Rail Gun Arm (so I'm not going to repeat them as they are broken up over the course of the paragraph)

*game mechanic wise though it isn't the case in actual practice

**game mechanic stat we know is arbitrary in general. In terms of compatibility we know some weapons that fire rounds/shells (megaversally speaking) that have different damage capabilities (one example is Ramjet & Explosive vs standard in Mercenaries pg103, they also come in specific sizes)

***Do the machinegun style Railguns even create a sonic boom when fired? I know the presentation of this style weapon in RMB (pg 236, RUE pg270) calls out their loudness, but nothing about a sonic boom level without their sound suppression. Sonic Boom is one of the reasons the weapon isn't seen as worth duplicating (WB22 pg83 "Most belive other comparable weapons exist without the detriments of a sonic boom and shock waves to over-come")

Killer Cyborg wrote:Except that they're both powerful single-shot rail guns, when every other rail gun in the RMB and SB1 were machine-gun type weapons.

True, but by connecting the two it is implying that they are more closely related. If you look at the other railguns in RMB/SB1 they don't harken back to other specific Railguns (exception is the UAR-1 Enforcer's, it just says its more powerful than the SAMAS nothing about the guns being similar beyond being "rail guns").

Killer Cyborg wrote:So since the T-16 doesn't mention that it can't use Naruni Plasma Rounds, or Boom Gun ammo, then it probably can.
Seems reasonable.

I did not say that (do you mean the TX-16? I'm not sure if you'r pulling a name at random or specific as I don't recognize the T-16 designation). The TX-16 is designed to fire specific round, and is assault rifle size (which probably means its 7.56mm or 5.56mm, maybe even 12.7/13mm but anything larger seems to be in the area of Machineguns). Text in the WI-GL8 (MercOps pg100-1) might push the size up to standard rifle grenade size (which is 40mm in MerCops pg122 for GAW, though smaller sizes seem possible given the NG-super Pistol in RMB/RUE).

Naruni Plasma rounds I doubt the rounds would even fit. Mercenaries states the weapons have a 2" bore (or ~50mm), which IINM probably means they don't even come close to being able to fit the TX-16 since the bore determines the caliber and above assumptions about the size of the TX-16.

A Boom Gun Round is larger than a Naruni Plasma Round (2.41"/61.2mm diameter by the illustration) and 7" long. So again it might not even fit. Even if you could fit it inside, how are you going to get the round going since a boomgun shell uses electromagnetic force to impart motion and not a chemical explosion setoff by the firing pin?
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 28149
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

ShadowLogan wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:I must have missed the part where the books specifically list all the differences.
Want to quote it to me?

I have quoted them before, but I'll do it again and in no particular order:
-Seine on Tolken #4 pg107: "These heavy-duty weapons are similar to Glitter Boy Boom Guns except they are lighter and more slender." Here the text illustrates exceptions to their similarity, the RG-14 then is heavier and less "slender" in comparison. Those are two differences specifically called out.


So... you think that those are literally the only two differences...?
:?

-SoT4 pg 107 (and Source Book 1 Original pg91): "This electromagnetic mass driver system is similar to that of the Glitter Boy Boom Gun. Although the basic principles are the same, this weapon is designed for accuracy rather than destructive power and has a suppressor system that lessens the recoil and muffles the sonic boom (the shot is still extremely loud, like that of a shotgun or small explosion). Here the text illustrates at this weapon is designed for accuracy*, less damage**, a different approach to recoil management (since the thruster pack/pylons aren't part of the user), and a muffler for the sonic boom***.
-Shemarrian Nation pg56: "... the Shemarrian Rail Gun is a magnificent weapon that utilizes an electromagnetic mass-driver system similar to the one used by the Glitter Boy's boom Gun. [at this point it's a copy/paste of previous text]".
-MercOps pg84 makes identical statements in the description of the Rail Gun Arm (so I'm not going to repeat them as they are broken up over the course of the paragraph)

*game mechanic wise though it isn't the case in actual practice

**game mechanic stat we know is arbitrary in general. In terms of compatibility we know some weapons that fire rounds/shells (megaversally speaking) that have different damage capabilities (one example is Ramjet & Explosive vs standard in Mercenaries pg103, they also come in specific sizes)

***Do the machinegun style Railguns even create a sonic boom when fired? I know the presentation of this style weapon in RMB (pg 236, RUE pg270) calls out their loudness, but nothing about a sonic boom level without their sound suppression. Sonic Boom is one of the reasons the weapon isn't seen as worth duplicating (WB22 pg83 "Most belive other comparable weapons exist without the detriments of a sonic boom and shock waves to over-come")


Let me know when you get to the part that says those things are a complete list of differences between the weapons.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Except that they're both powerful single-shot rail guns, when every other rail gun in the RMB and SB1 were machine-gun type weapons.

True, but by connecting the two it is implying that they are more closely related.
If you look at the other railguns in RMB/SB1 they don't harken back to other specific Railguns (exception is the UAR-1 Enforcer's, it just says its more powerful than the SAMAS nothing about the guns being similar beyond being "rail guns").


That's because they're all standard railguns.
So...?

Killer Cyborg wrote:So since the T-16 doesn't mention that it can't use Naruni Plasma Rounds, or Boom Gun ammo, then it probably can.
Seems reasonable.

I did not say that (do you mean the TX-16? I'm not sure if you'r pulling a name at random or specific as I don't recognize the T-16 designation). The TX-16 is designed to fire specific round, and is assault rifle size (which probably means its 7.56mm or 5.56mm, maybe even 12.7/13mm but anything larger seems to be in the area of Machineguns). Text in the WI-GL8 (MercOps pg100-1) might push the size up to standard rifle grenade size (which is 40mm in MerCops pg122 for GAW, though smaller sizes seem possible given the NG-super Pistol in RMB/RUE).


You posed the notion that any two weapons that have non-standard rounds are compatible with each other.
I was tossing out one implication of that notion.
There are plenty more, but you can probably see a lot of holes already with the notion.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by eliakon »

Just a guess here...
But as the only two railguns in existence that have an electromagnetic mass driver system that uses cartridges loaded with sub-munitions instead of loose rounds...
...I am going to go out on a limb here and say that they would have to be similar since they are obviously using a similar principle.

That would explain why they are described as being similar. They are. They are all of the class "Rail Gun: Cartridge"

Since as others have pointed out rail gun ammunition is not standardized for any other railguns even ones that are closely similar I do not see a reason to presume that two weapons, one of which has a much smaller barrel diameter than the other one uses the exact same ammunition.
Especially since if it was the same then logically it would be able to use the same sized ammunition packs... and the Shemmarians do NOT to the best of my knowledge run around with 400 shot ammo packs (the size of the ones that GBs carry on their belts, sometimes several of) which would make them easily something that a man sized person could carry around.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7655
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Killer Cyborg wrote:You posed the notion that any two weapons that have non-standard rounds are compatible with each other.
I was tossing out one implication of that notion.
There are plenty more, but you can probably see a lot of holes already with the notion.


No I have posed the "notion" that two weapons that fire the same type of non-standard round are compatible with each other when other references also seem to draw a connection to them. Weapons that do not share those qualities (as in your examples) don't work. You may be over simplifying the notion I am going for.

eliakon wrote:Especially since if it was the same then logically it would be able to use the same sized ammunition packs... and the Shemmarians do NOT to the best of my knowledge run around with 400 shot ammo packs (the size of the ones that GBs carry on their belts, sometimes several of) which would make them easily something that a man sized person could carry around.

As of Shemarrian Nation (pg56-7, pg41-2, pg36), they have 12round magazines, 220round backpack, and 820 round drum for the Shemarrain 6000/4000 Rail Guns (the 6070 on pg44 has a larger magazine and lacks the drum possibility but uses the backpack)

I am not sure how/where the drum is located (is it like a machinegun crew, backmounted, attached to the gun etc) as I don't think its ever described.

eliakdon wrote:, one of which has a much smaller barrel diameter than the other one uses the exact same ammunition

Where is it established the barrel diameter is smaller on one of these weapons being discussed? I don't recall anything in text or illustrations that establish the size of the Shemmarian weapon, and we know the length of the RG-14 and its projectile (and by extension the diameter).
User avatar
DhAkael
Knight
Posts: 5151
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:38 pm

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by DhAkael »

Short answer: No.
Long answer: #$%k NO!
Bind the body to the opened mind
Bind the body to the opened mind

I dream of towers in a world consumed
A void in the sentient sky
I dream of fissures across the moon
Leaves of the lotus rise


~Dream Again By Miracle of Sound
Shark_Force
Palladin
Posts: 7128
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Shark_Force »

ShadowLogan wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:You posed the notion that any two weapons that have non-standard rounds are compatible with each other.
I was tossing out one implication of that notion.
There are plenty more, but you can probably see a lot of holes already with the notion.


No I have posed the "notion" that two weapons that fire the same type of non-standard round are compatible with each other when other references also seem to draw a connection to them. Weapons that do not share those qualities (as in your examples) don't work. You may be over simplifying the notion I am going for.


but it doesn't say the same type. it says they're similar. if you prefer, you're suggesting that because .410 and 10 gauge shotguns are similar and use "non-standard" ammunition (12-gauge being standard), they must therefore have interchangeable ammunition.

it is true that two non-standard weapons could hypothetically be non-standard in exactly the same way unless otherwise specified. it is utter nonsense to suggest that because they are both non-standard, they therefore *must* use the same type of ammunition. in this case, there are so many unspecified variables in play that it's absurd to suggest they must be non-standard in the exact same way, as well as compelling reasons for the two to not be non-standard in the exact same way.

furthermore, "similar" does not remotely suggest identical, and in fact rules it out because similar means that only some of the things are the same. you might describe fraternal twins as being "similar" (they have the same age, the same birthdate, the same parents, quite probably have lived in the same place, may even have the same friends, be in the same class at school, etc), but it would be absurd to use the statement that they are similar to attempt to prove that they must therefore be identical, because the word itself means that some (not all) things about the two are the same.

there is no explicit statement that the two are not identical, so that possibility isn't completely 100% ruled out. but it seems pretty improbable. ARCHIE had valid reasons to make them different. the designs are from 2 different companies, and cyberworks would probably have had to pay KLS for the use of their patent had they simply copied the design exactly back when they originally designed it. the books mention that there is something about the gun on a certain robot that would link it to the shemarrians, with nothing suggesting that same gun would link it to glitter boys. and instead of just saying "it uses the exact same ammunition as a glitter boy", they instead describe something similar to what the glitter boy uses.

now that's all circumstantial evidence, so we don't have conclusive hard proof that they use different ammunition. but in the presence of a bunch of circumstantial evidence on one side and no evidence on the other beyond a lack of evidence that they are definitely 100% different, the rational conclusion is that the two guns probably use similar (but different) ammunition.
Colonel_Tetsuya
Champion
Posts: 2172
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Shark_Force wrote:ARCHIE had valid reasons to make them different. the designs are from 2 different companies, and cyberworks would probably have had to pay KLS for the use of their patent had they simply copied the design exactly back when they originally designed it. t


There is actually -nothing- to suggest that KLS or Cyberworks ever designed this weapon. This is purely ARCHIE as far as we are aware. And as he had plans and authorization for -everything- NEMA used, regardless of source, KLS, Cyberworks, you name it.... there's no reason to believe he didn't just use the Boom Gun as a starting place and make an entirely new weapon for the Shemarians.

Not that im intimating that the rounds are interchangeable - just the thought that ARCHIE somehow cares about patents or ever did or that this gun was even a pre-Rifts design is somewhat flawed.

Additionally, patents seem to no longer work the same way in the Golden Age - as the US Military and NEMA had their OWN factories to produce the designs on-site at most bases, which is definitely NOT how military contracting works now.
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
Shark_Force
Palladin
Posts: 7128
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Shark_Force »

ARCHIE is explicitly noted as really struggling when it comes to designing things, and lacking in creativity. someone else already noted that basically all the stuff he builds are pre-rifts designs tweaked to look different. you'll have to ask them for the reference if you want it. but basically, ARCHIE isn't that great at designing things, and it seems unlikely that either hagan or james knew enough about boom guns to perform a redesign that makes them usable with basically every power armour out there when nobody else in the world (except ARCHIE) is taking advantage of that knowledge. again, evidence suggests that the design is cyberworks, though i am not personally aware of anything super conclusive (but perhaps there is some). it would even make sense for both KLS and cyberworks to have similar weapon projects going on. the military says they're looking for a weapon with certain specifications, different companies design something with those specifications, and the military buys the one they like best (which then enters full production). evidently KLS won the bid, but it really does fit for cyberworks to have something similar in a lot of ways sitting in their archives.

and the presence of factories in military bases doesn't mean patents stopped mattering in the golden age. if there is stuff designed by KLS and other stuff designed by cyberworks, and neither of them produced the other stuff, there was something preventing each company from just stealing the other company's designs, whether it works exactly like an RL patent or not.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by eliakon »

Shark_Force wrote:ARCHIE is explicitly noted as really struggling when it comes to designing things, and lacking in creativity. someone else already noted that basically all the stuff he builds are pre-rifts designs tweaked to look different. you'll have to ask them for the reference if you want it. but basically, ARCHIE isn't that great at designing things, and it seems unlikely that either hagan or james knew enough about boom guns to perform a redesign that makes them usable with basically every power armour out there when nobody else in the world (except ARCHIE) is taking advantage of that knowledge. again, evidence suggests that the design is cyberworks, though i am not personally aware of anything super conclusive (but perhaps there is some). it would even make sense for both KLS and cyberworks to have similar weapon projects going on. the military says they're looking for a weapon with certain specifications, different companies design something with those specifications, and the military buys the one they like best (which then enters full production). evidently KLS won the bid, but it really does fit for cyberworks to have something similar in a lot of ways sitting in their archives.

The answer is yes AND no
Sourcebook 1 revised page 118 wrote: "Under the umbrella of "robotics manufacturing" were mass production capabilities for all key NEMA robot vehicles, A.I.s (artificially intelligent robots) and the organization's signature power armor, namely the Chromium Guardsman (better known on Rifts Earth as the Glitter Boy) and the Silver Eagle (better known on Rifts Earth as the SAMAS flying power armor) as well as basic vehicles, standard M.D. weapons and troop body armor. More than that the modular factory areas could be programed to make design modifications, adjustments and changes to entirely new designs.

This tells us that he had the NEMA plans for the glitter boy (which is how he was seeding them around for 150 or so years). It also tells us that he can make modifications and adjustments to the designs.
Another telling note is that when the Shemarrian weapons CAN use a modern ammunition or fitting that is mentioned explicitly as well as when something is a straight up copy of a pre-Rifts design.
Since the three rail guns do NOT have a mention that they can use Glitterboy ammunition, nor do they say that they are simply cosmetically changed Boom-Guns or the like the burden as I see it is that the person wanting the ammunition to work needs to provide a clear statement that they DO... since we have the rest of the weapons showing us that in every other weapon we are told when something is compatible with other ammunition or accessories that are not Shemmarrian. I will also note that the rail guns are described as "an alien device of limited utility" that would make sense if the ammunition was difficult to aquire. But that makes absolutely NO sense if the ammunition is cheap and plentiful. One of the best railgun rifles for cyborgs and power-armors on Earth and possibly the megavers is not of "limited utility"!!
For completeness though I will list all examples are from the Shemarrian Nation book:
-Shemarrian .30-06 Hunting Rifle: it uses the Earth standard 30.06 round and can mount any kind of Cyberworks or Titan Robotics optics system. It also says that it allows for easy resupply in the field as the bullets can be found easily. Which would be odd if regular Boom Gun ammunition (which can also be purchased in the field) was able to be used for their railguns.
-She-PB20 Particle Beam Rifle: "Another weapon from Archie's data files that has been retooled to "look" Shemarrian. (note its Archie's files not the NEMA files)
-She-PLR25 Plasma Rifle: "Another cosmetic upgrade of a Cyberworks weapon design"
-SHE-IP30 Ion Pistol: "Another old design of Archie's retooled and cosmetically altered to make the weapon appear Shemarrian." (note how it is a design of Archie's that he retooled into a new weapon)

Then there is the fact that they are deliberately designed to appear to be based on alien technology to the point that they take an exclusive Shemarrian E-clip. The fact that they use alien designs and alien ammunition... except for their signature weapon which uses Earth standard rounds would be a MASSIVE tip off and basically the gig would be up the first time they were unable to police up every last spent round.


Shark_Force wrote:and the presence of factories in military bases doesn't mean patents stopped mattering in the golden age. if there is stuff designed by KLS and other stuff designed by cyberworks, and neither of them produced the other stuff, there was something preventing each company from just stealing the other company's designs, whether it works exactly like an RL patent or not.

What you are describing is what is known as a "license"
You license the use of the patent from the patent holder so that you can make your item that incorporates their patent, or make your own version of their patented item. In exchange you pay them a fee.
Its one of the foundations of the patent system actually.
KSL licensing various forces around the world to make Glitter-boys and variants thereof would be a good example. You pay for the license you get the tech. You DONT pay for the license you don't get the tech. Hence the reason that the New Navy, Russians, Mindworks, Chinese, Australians, Colombians, and Cyberworks et multiple cetera have no GB technology at all, and why the Black Market doesn't have the chromium.
Their facilities didn't have those licenses.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Shark_Force
Palladin
Posts: 7128
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Shark_Force »

ARCHIE has the tools to redesign things (or make something new from scratch), but he isn't good at designing things. that's why he needs a human partner.

given his tendency to re-use old cyberworks designs with only cosmetic changes that could be supplied by an imaginative human, it makes sense to presume that the shemarrian railgun is probably a reskinned version of a railgun that was designed for the same bid as the one the glitter boy won. that also makes sense, given that if a typical operator (which is what hagan is last i checked) could design a railgun that performs as effectively as the shemarrian railgun while being usable by much lighter power armour than the glitter boy and without the bulky recoil compensation systems, i would personally assume there would be weapons like that all over the place. or, in other words... we can be pretty sure the design did not come from hagan (who probably lacks the technical expertise to design such a weapon). and we can be pretty sure the design did not come from ARCHIE (who isn't very good at designing). so it probably came from elsewhere (who knows, maybe ARCHIE captured one from a d-bee and is now duplicating it).
dreicunan
Hero
Posts: 1344
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by dreicunan »

If the boom gun and the shemarian weapon are coil guns, doesn't that mean that the projectile is not going to be touching the barrel as it is fired? That would mean that, at least theoretically, one could fire the ammo so long as one could put it in the right spot in the weapon if it is smaller than the usual ammo used for the barrel. How easy that would be is a different issue, of course.
Axelmania wrote:You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7655
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

SHark_Force wrote:but it doesn't say the same type. it says they're similar. if you prefer, you're suggesting that because .410 and 10 gauge shotguns are similar and use "non-standard" ammunition (12-gauge being standard), they must therefore have interchangeable ammunition.

The GUNS are Similar with notes on HOW THEY DIFFER, but they don't mention ammunition being unique to either gun series. To use the shot gun analogy, they could just be firing the same gauge round produced by different manufacturers or even type (cosmetically manufactures of 12ga buckshot do make the shells distinct). We just don't know.

The question isn't are RG-14 and Shem-4k/6k firing identical ammunition (visually and game performance that isn't the case). It is if the ammunition they fire can be shared given how the firing systems noted similarities and such. To date I think there is more circumstantial evidence it can, but it isn't stated one way or the other.

Shark_Force wrote: it makes sense to presume that the shemarrian railgun is probably a reskinned version of a railgun that was designed for the same bid as the one the glitter boy won

My THINKING on this issue does include this, but without some canon statement so I wanted to avoid using it as a basis here (in my game world is another matter). However as you broached it I would have to add that if this is the case that could mean that the requirement for the size of the round(s) both guns would be expected to fire could have been put out as a requirement by the customer (US-DOD/NEMA). And if it was then the rounds would have to be interchangeable I would think.

As other discussions on the Boomgun tend to bring up, the multi-Flechette/slugs of these weapons is terrible for the role they are presented in (anti-armor). So Boomguns could have other ammunition types available, we just haven't seen them yet (though if they existed I would think Japan or the Orbitals would have mentioned/deployed them).

eliakon wrote: You DONT pay for the license you don't get the tech. Hence the reason that the New Navy, Russians, Mindworks, Chinese, Australians, Colombians, and Cyberworks et multiple cetera have no GB technology at all, and why the Black Market doesn't have the chromium.
Their facilities didn't have those licenses.

Technically the New Navy DOES utilize Glitter Boys (WB7 pg130 under Troop Capacity, the Marine Brigade). For them to maintain those GBs for 300+years would almost require them to have a source of parts and new production, almost certainly at their hidden bases since the NN (at that point) wasn't in contact w/known GB producers (NGR, FQ, Japan, SA, Archie-3, or the Moon). I suppose they could do salvage operations or trade for them.
TeeAychEeMarchHare
Explorer
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:56 pm
Comment: War to the knife, knife to the hilt.

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by TeeAychEeMarchHare »

DhAkael wrote:Short answer: No.
Long answer: #$%k NO!


This. A million times this.
Too much ammo is a self-correcting problem.
Colonel_Tetsuya
Champion
Posts: 2172
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

dreicunan wrote:If the boom gun and the shemarian weapon are coil guns, doesn't that mean that the projectile is not going to be touching the barrel as it is fired? That would mean that, at least theoretically, one could fire the ammo so long as one could put it in the right spot in the weapon if it is smaller than the usual ammo used for the barrel. How easy that would be is a different issue, of course.


They aren't coilguns, and coilguns do have barrels.

Most OTHER Rifts "Railguns" operate like a coilgun (I.E. they can fire rapid fire); the Boom Gun, Baby Boom Gun (from BM), and the Shemarian Rail Gun are some of the only "true" rail guns in Rifts.

Shark_Force wrote:ARCHIE is explicitly noted as really struggling when it comes to designing things,


No, he isn't, actually. He's talked about as having limited "creativity" when it comes to designs.

and lacking in creativity.


Design/aesthetic creativity, perhaps. But given that he has the most advanced tech base on the entire planet other than Triax (in a very few areas they are equal or ahead of him) or the Splugorth, and that he developed that tech base entirely on his own (Hes only been using idea mean for ~40-50 years at most)... your reasoning doesn't stand. His stuff is so advanced, it counts as alien technology for the purposes of skills (and incurs huge penalties to work with for terrestrial Operators). That isn't because his tech base was that advanced to start with - it clearly wasnt, as the OG CS weapons were front-line NEMA tech as of the Great Cataclysm. Best of the best. Archie has expanded several hundred years beyond that. All on his own.

someone else already noted that basically all the stuff he builds are pre-rifts designs tweaked to look different. you'll have to ask them for the reference if you want it.


They were wrong, and i corrected them. With citations.

but basically, ARCHIE isn't that great at designing things, and it seems unlikely that either hagan or james knew enough about boom guns to perform a redesign that makes them usable with basically every power armour out there when nobody else in the world (except ARCHIE) is taking advantage of that knowledge. again, evidence suggests that the design is cyberworks,


What evidence is that? There is no mention of -any kind- that the design is Cyberworks.

though i am not personally aware of anything super conclusive (but perhaps there is some). it would even make sense for both KLS and cyberworks to have similar weapon projects going on. the military says they're looking for a weapon with certain specifications, different companies design something with those specifications, and the military buys the one they like best (which then enters full production). evidently KLS won the bid, but it really does fit for cyberworks to have something similar in a lot of ways sitting in their archives.

and the presence of factories in military bases doesn't mean patents stopped mattering in the golden age. if there is stuff designed by KLS and other stuff designed by cyberworks, and neither of them produced the other stuff, there was something preventing each company from just stealing the other company's designs, whether it works exactly like an RL patent or not.


I think you're missing the point, which was - ARCHIE and his installation are NOT strictly a "Cyberworks" installation. If all you have to go on is SB1 (NR), then you can be forgiven for thinking that, but SB1r ("The Great Republican Retcon") clearly establishes that Archie's installation was intended to be HQ for NEMA. In its entirety. It's also FAR bigger than previously mentioned (spans several hundred miles/states) and as a NEMA facility, ARCHIE has access to ALL of the designs NEMA used. And has advanced those designs and created new ones for centuries, to the point of his tech being so advanced as to be considered alien.

Shark_Force wrote:ARCHIE has the tools to redesign things (or make something new from scratch), but he isn't good at designing things. that's why he needs a human partner.


Again, three centuries of technological advancement done nearly entirely on his own that puts him on par or ahead of the Splugorth and Three Galaxies, as well as Triax (who have also had three centuries of un-stopped advancement, as they never "fell") seems to give the lie to this statement. It also doesn't say that anywhere. It says that Archie's designs are "boring", and that he lacks artistic creativity. That's why he uses "idea men" - they help him come up with cool looking stuff like the Shemarians. The technology for the Shemarians was already there; Hagan didn't help develop a single bit of it - but Archie would have just made generic robot-looking minions given his own druthers. Hagan, on the other hand, came up with a cool backstory and cover story. THAT is what he uses "idea men" for. And companionship. 'cause he's lonely.

given his tendency to re-use old cyberworks designs


Which ones would those be?

with only cosmetic changes that could be supplied by an imaginative human, it makes sense to presume that the shemarrian railgun is probably a reskinned version of a railgun that was designed for the same bid as the one the glitter boy won.


Except the problem here is you're begging the question. You're assuming your first assertion is correct and thereby the second must be as well, when that isn't established and is actually contradicted by the facts. There is no indication of any kind that Cyberworks made anything like this. Or any other weapon ARCHIE produces. The CS weapons are straight-up identical knockoffs of front-line NEMA weapons at the time of the Cataclysm. Archie's designs are MILES ahead of those. They aren't knock-offs of something Cyberworks or KLS or anyone else had - or those designs would have been being used by NEMA. The closest we get is the "new" weapons that the Republicans are using in SB1r, and those are "based on prototype designs for new NEMA equipment AND have had additional work done on them by the Republicans over the years".

that also makes sense, given that if a typical operator (which is what hagan is last i checked) could design a railgun that performs as effectively as the shemarrian railgun while being usable by much lighter power armour than the glitter boy and without the bulky recoil compensation systems, i would personally assume there would be weapons like that all over the place. or, in other words... we can be pretty sure the design did not come from hagan (who probably lacks the technical expertise to design such a weapon). and we can be pretty sure the design did not come from ARCHIE (who isn't very good at designing). so it probably came from elsewhere (who knows, maybe ARCHIE captured one from a d-bee and is now duplicating it).


ARCHIE is so good at designing his tech is considered so advanced it is alien technology. So.. yeah.

You're four assumptions deep here. Hagan didn't have any part in designing the Shemarian Rail gun for all we know. The weapon could already have existed, as ARCHIE experimented with stuff over the centuries. He probably came up with the external/cosmetic design, but is he responsible for creating the gun? No. Not that we're aware of. He's not actually responsible for the creation of ANY of the weapons we see Archie's bots using, actually - just their designs. In conjunction with Archie. Via a special helmet that intrinsically links them.

The idea that "any old Operator" created it (assuming Hagan had ANYTHING to do with it) is absurd on its face. "Any old Operator" isn't directly mentally bonded with a super-advanced living AI that can take his thoughts and convert them into designs without any intervening action.
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by eliakon »

So let me get this straight
Based on the theory that all of the following statements are indeed valid it follows that the two ammunition types are the same.

-That the authors intended to give Archie GB technology as far back as SB 1 thus when the Shemmarian's were introduced the first time it was intended to be just a boom gun that had been slightly modified.

-That even though Shemmarians are sent out with lots of ammunition because resupply is difficult they can just use regular boom gun ammunition. Which is a regular over the counter item.

-That even though the other Shemmarian weapons were explicitly fitted with special custom e-clips to support their alien origin story. A story that is so meticulous that the robots are programed to live the cover even when no one is watching and has been built up to a point where neither Lazlo nor the CS Intelligence branch has noticed anything odd... They slipped up and just used the same ammunition as the boom gun. But amazingly no one has ever noticed.

-That Archie, even though he has personally invented enough new technology to make all of his stuff "alien technology" can't design his own railgun and has to copy the GB one.

-That even though Archie is only said to have problems with designs not items...he cant actually design new technology. Even though he has done this all the time.

-That even though these weapons are explicitly wildly different than the GB (no boom, no recoil, different damage, different range) they are really the same weapons

-That even though the Boom Gun round explicitly uses slugs (long rounded soft objects) and the Shemerian explicitly have shards (which implies that they are sharp quite possibly from a fragmentation casing) that they are really the same exact same thing.

-That even though the Shemmarian Railgun is one of the best personal weapons in the game... no one wants one and it is considered a 'alien curiosity of limited use'. Even though you can buy the ammunition in bulk.

-That because they are both canister round rail guns that means that they use perfectly compatible ammunition

-And that the drawings of the ammunitions are not accurate and that they actually intend to have them look identical. Same length, width, diameter, weight, magnetic values... everything.

-And that in all these years, no one has ever noticed this. Even those like the CS and the Splugorth who have been actively looking into the Shemmarians.

If all of that (and others) are valid then they are identical.
If any of them are false though... they are not identical.

Hmmmm
I know which way I am going to lean
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 28149
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

eliakon wrote:So let me get this straight
Based on the theory that all of the following statements are indeed valid it follows that the two ammunition types are the same.

-That the authors intended to give Archie GB technology as far back as SB 1 thus when the Shemmarian's were introduced the first time it was intended to be just a boom gun that had been slightly modified.

-That even though Shemmarians are sent out with lots of ammunition because resupply is difficult they can just use regular boom gun ammunition. Which is a regular over the counter item.

-That even though the other Shemmarian weapons were explicitly fitted with special custom e-clips to support their alien origin story. A story that is so meticulous that the robots are programed to live the cover even when no one is watching and has been built up to a point where neither Lazlo nor the CS Intelligence branch has noticed anything odd... They slipped up and just used the same ammunition as the boom gun. But amazingly no one has ever noticed.

-That Archie, even though he has personally invented enough new technology to make all of his stuff "alien technology" can't design his own railgun and has to copy the GB one.

-That even though Archie is only said to have problems with designs not items...he cant actually design new technology. Even though he has done this all the time.

-That even though these weapons are explicitly wildly different than the GB (no boom, no recoil, different damage, different range) they are really the same weapons

-That even though the Boom Gun round explicitly uses slugs (long rounded soft objects) and the Shemerian explicitly have shards (which implies that they are sharp quite possibly from a fragmentation casing) that they are really the same exact same thing.

-That even though the Shemmarian Railgun is one of the best personal weapons in the game... no one wants one and it is considered a 'alien curiosity of limited use'. Even though you can buy the ammunition in bulk.

-That because they are both canister round rail guns that means that they use perfectly compatible ammunition

-And that the drawings of the ammunitions are not accurate and that they actually intend to have them look identical. Same length, width, diameter, weight, magnetic values... everything.

-And that in all these years, no one has ever noticed this. Even those like the CS and the Splugorth who have been actively looking into the Shemmarians.

If all of that (and others) are valid then they are identical.
If any of them are false though... they are not identical.

Hmmmm
I know which way I am going to lean


Yeah, pretty much.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
dreicunan
Hero
Posts: 1344
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by dreicunan »

@Colonel_Tetsuya: For me to have stated that the ammunition in a coil gun doesn't touch the barrel when it is fired, I'd have to have acknowledged that they have barrels. Since I did, I clearly couldn't be denying that they have barrels. ;)

If the Boom Gun and the Shemarian gun are actual rail guns, are we just assuming that mega-damage materials means that the rails last long enough that replacing them doesn't need to be a thing? Between the lack of any mention of needing to replace the rails and the shape of the ammunition, I'd always figured that a coil gun made way more sense for what a boom gun actually is. Especially since Shemarian nation says that both it and the boom gun use an electromagnetic mass driver system, and that means coil gun.
Axelmania wrote:You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by eliakon »

dreicunan wrote:@Colonel_Tetsuya: For me to have stated that the ammunition in a coil gun doesn't touch the barrel when it is fired, I'd have to have acknowledged that they have barrels. Since I did, I clearly couldn't be denying that they have barrels. ;)

If the Boom Gun and the Shemarian gun are actual rail guns, are we just assuming that mega-damage materials means that the rails last long enough that replacing them doesn't need to be a thing? Between the lack of any mention of needing to replace the rails and the shape of the ammunition, I'd always figured that a coil gun made way more sense for what a boom gun actually is. Especially since Shemarian nation says that both it and the boom gun use an electromagnetic mass driver system, and that means coil gun.

Actually we don't know WHAT rifts technology calls a railgun would be called in our world.
There are a lot of things about them that don't make any sense or are physically impossible suggesting that they are neither 'true' railguns nor coil guns but some sort of weird science 'other'
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 28149
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

eliakon wrote:
dreicunan wrote:@Colonel_Tetsuya: For me to have stated that the ammunition in a coil gun doesn't touch the barrel when it is fired, I'd have to have acknowledged that they have barrels. Since I did, I clearly couldn't be denying that they have barrels. ;)

If the Boom Gun and the Shemarian gun are actual rail guns, are we just assuming that mega-damage materials means that the rails last long enough that replacing them doesn't need to be a thing? Between the lack of any mention of needing to replace the rails and the shape of the ammunition, I'd always figured that a coil gun made way more sense for what a boom gun actually is. Especially since Shemarian nation says that both it and the boom gun use an electromagnetic mass driver system, and that means coil gun.

Actually we don't know WHAT rifts technology calls a railgun would be called in our world.
There are a lot of things about them that don't make any sense or are physically impossible suggesting that they are neither 'true' railguns nor coil guns but some sort of weird science 'other'


I've often said that the science of Rifts Earth is so darned advanced that it doesn't even make much sense in the terms of modern science.
;)
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
Colonel_Tetsuya
Champion
Posts: 2172
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

dreicunan wrote:@Colonel_Tetsuya: For me to have stated that the ammunition in a coil gun doesn't touch the barrel when it is fired, I'd have to have acknowledged that they have barrels. Since I did, I clearly couldn't be denying that they have barrels. ;)

If the Boom Gun and the Shemarian gun are actual rail guns, are we just assuming that mega-damage materials means that the rails last long enough that replacing them doesn't need to be a thing? Between the lack of any mention of needing to replace the rails


Maintenance is never mentioned for any weapon system in Rifts, so i dont think this is a path of logic that even needs to be addressed. We can safely assume that either 1) all weapons systems require regular maintenance or they break down or 2) none of them require maintenance ever, and MDC materials are a godsend for this purpose. Its just one of those minutae that is ignored completely.

and the shape of the ammunition, I'd always figured that a coil gun made way more sense for what a boom gun actually is. Especially since Shemarian nation says that both it and the boom gun use an electromagnetic mass driver system, and that means coil gun.


wat? Considering that the Navy's Railgun uses an electromagnetic mass driver....

Coil-guns and rail-guns both use electromagnetic force; the primary difference is the use of rails (in the rail-gun) to move the current THROUGH the projectile or at least the driving portion of it, providing the motive force (like the Navy's current railgun), or for a coil-gun, a ferromagnetic bullet is accelerated by pushing it down "coils" that it never actually touches (but they do have barrels that the projectile engages with) that are usually wrapped AROUND the barrel.

A "real" rail-gun can only fire one at a time because you cant put another projectile on the rails until the current one is out; otherwise, itll cross-connect the rails earlier in the circuit and the round futher down the barrel will just stop. Thus, the Boom Gun, Baby Boom Gun, Shemarian Rail Gun, and (IIRC) a new NG Borg-portable "rail cannon" are some of the few "traditional" rail guns.

A coil gun, however, can fire lots of projectiles in rapid fire (like a machine-gun, and like is described for ) because the current round only has to clear the current coil before the next round can be fed in. If you have a good timing system, you could literally have one bullet heading down the barrel for every coil you have in the line. Most "rail guns" in Rifts seem to operate like this. Coil Guns would still have an internal barrel (inside the coils) to engage the projectile to provide some measure of stability (via rifling, etc). So you couldnt just use variable sized ammo - it would still have to fit your particular rail/coil gun. We know that different railguns use different ammo, as several in the NG books alone call out different or specialized ammo being what allows them to do more damage than the other guns.

Though we're still being loosey-goosey here as a lot of the tech in Rifts doesn't fit either definition really well.
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by eliakon »

I would just like to point out that nothing in Rifts can not be using 'true rail' railguns.
Full stop.
This is because all railguns work underwater. As that would short out the rails then its pretty solid that no railgun uses rails.

They could be using some coil gun, or some sort of bizarre super-science, or something that hasn't been invented yet... but no rails.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Axelmania »

You're operating by our present understanding of railguns, not Golden Age understanding which may have some answer to this water dilemma.
User avatar
Sureshot
Champion
Posts: 2520
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:42 pm
Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
Location: Montreal, Quebec

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Sureshot »

Take everything that is said about technology in Rifts with a galaxy sized grain of salt. As this is the same rpg that claims that tanks are considered obsolete on Rifts Earth (Rifts Mercenaries page 96). Where if the Golden Age on Rifts Earth created so many technological marvels one assumes they would have fixed the main issues with tanks.

To the topic at hand I still yes they can with the right OCC and proper skill rolls yet it's not going to be easy nor something they should make out to be common knowledge.
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.
User avatar
Natasha
Champion
Posts: 3161
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:26 pm
Comment: Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Natasha »

It's possible to imagine kinetic energy is transferred from the armature to the projectile for underwater rail gun operation. It's interesting to imagine how they've solved frictional and resistive heating problems. It's difficult to imagine they've solved the density of water problem.
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7655
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

eliakon wrote:That the authors intended to give Archie GB technology as far back as SB 1 thus when the Shemmarian's were introduced the first time it was intended to be just a boom gun that had been slightly modified.

Well they do make a connection between the RG-14 and the Shem Railgun in several ways in SB1. Nothing really says that GB technology is required to make a Railgun operate this way, Naruni (Mercenaries) has such a weapon (the Arkhons in SA2 use flechettes).

eliakon wrote:-That even though the other Shemmarian weapons were explicitly fitted with special custom e-clips to support their alien origin story. A story that is so meticulous that the robots are programed to live the cover even when no one is watching and has been built up to a point where neither Lazlo nor the CS Intelligence branch has noticed anything odd... They slipped up and just used the same ammunition as the boom gun. But amazingly no one has ever noticed.

Well considering the Sunji of Atlantis have managed to keep their secret (not to mention Titan Robotics and the Shems), no I don't find it hard (in game) to believe no on has ever noticed. And it isn't the same ammunition as the boom gun, its compatible ammunition with the boom gun that is the question.

eliakon wrote:-That Archie, even though he has personally invented enough new technology to make all of his stuff "alien technology" can't design his own railgun and has to copy the GB one.

Could Archie have designed his own rail gun? Sure. One that takes a rather rare approach? Yes. Could Archie have based his railgun on an existing design? Yes. Could Archie be reusing an old design and just applied cosmetic changes? Yes (Shem Nation does confirms this with other weapons stated to be of "shemarrian origin"). Does Archie make mistakes? Yes (his attempt at playing "god", he hasn't changed any access codes to keep out the Republicans, Titan Robotics use of the Shem weapon w/o disguising it, etc).

eliakon wrote:-That even though these weapons are explicitly wildly different than the GB (no boom, no recoil, different damage, different range) they are really the same weapons

We are TOLD though the Shem Railgun has technology that "muffles the sonic boom" and reduces the recoil as far back as the original SB1. Damage/Range could come from the round or the gun itself:
-AT-1053 Rail Cannons (Pg160 WB8) use different explosive shells for their damage (same range)
-GAW Howitzerds & Mortors (MerOps pg128-7) and 120mm Auto-Cannon (pg128) uses different shells (same range)
-BRL-3 Rocket Launcher (SA2 pg82, can use conventional Mini-Missiles but at reduced range and only in direct fire mode)
-Various Stock Missile Systems. Each category of Missile (mini, short, medium, long) comes in variable damage/range, but are nearly always universally compatible which would indicate size wise they are interchangeable. This includes the original damage table users, which are also compatible with the CWC revised
-RT 2E also has a few examples (VHT-1 and Monster Destroid, their artillery cannons feature a selection of variable damage and range rounds they both fire)

eliakon wrote:-That even though the Boom Gun round explicitly uses slugs (long rounded soft objects) and the Shemerian explicitly have shards (which implies that they are sharp quite possibly from a fragmentation casing) that they are really the same exact same thing.

SB1o (pg91) states "It fires a single flechette filled cartridge." So "shards" as you call them are likely poetic descriptions, not technical. RMB (pg219 and repeated in RUE and likely the C&Ps in WB8/22/MiO/WB5) when describing the RG-14 "...acclerate its flechette style rounds...". We know from elsewhere that those flechette style rounds are cylinderical slugs in a filled casing, which matches the Shem. system.

eliakon wrote:And that the drawings of the ammunitions are not accurate and that they actually intend to have them look identical. Same length, width, diameter, weight, magnetic values... everything.

We only have measurements for the RG-14 (7.5ft long) and its round (7" long), but not the Shem. 6000 Railgun or its round AFAIK. Given these weapons seem to be compared to the RG-14 it stands to reason they could be using compatible ammunition.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by eliakon »

ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:That the authors intended to give Archie GB technology as far back as SB 1 thus when the Shemmarian's were introduced the first time it was intended to be just a boom gun that had been slightly modified.

Well they do make a connection between the RG-14 and the Shem Railgun in several ways in SB1.

I am curious. What connections specifically do they make in that book, what are they and what is the page number. Because simply asserting that they exist isn't proof of anything other than that you wish us to take your word for it.

ShadowLogan wrote:Nothing really says that GB technology is required to make a Railgun operate this way, Naruni (Mercenaries) has such a weapon (the Arkhons in SA2 use flechettes).

I really must thank you for this. Really. You could not have proved my case for me better if you had tried.
You have just pointed out another 'similar' rail gun.
So, unless this gun ALSO uses compatible ammunition, then simply being similar to the Boom Gun does not mean that the ammunition is compatible.
The Naruni weapon is 'similar to the Boom Gun' (their words not mine) so is the Shemmarian (which is the defense of compatibility) weapon. It gets worse there as the Naruni are notorious for their proprietary ammunition practices... the idea that they some how be using an absolutely identical in all ways shell, on their tank that is thousands of years old, as the Earth Standard Glitter Boy. Well the chances of that seem to be somewhere between zero and none.

Which leaves us with a binary state either state one ALL similar weapons use identical and thus fully compatible ammunitions , or state two similarity in a weapon is not proof of ammunition being identical.
Which is it?


ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:-That even though the other Shemmarian weapons were explicitly fitted with special custom e-clips to support their alien origin story. A story that is so meticulous that the robots are programed to live the cover even when no one is watching and has been built up to a point where neither Lazlo nor the CS Intelligence branch has noticed anything odd... They slipped up and just used the same ammunition as the boom gun. But amazingly no one has ever noticed.

Well considering the Sunji of Atlantis have managed to keep their secret (not to mention Titan Robotics and the Shems), no I don't find it hard (in game) to believe no on has ever noticed. And it isn't the same ammunition as the boom gun, its compatible ammunition with the boom gun that is the question.

And the Sunaj also use totally different weapons, use no atlantian gear at all, allow none of their gear, weapons, armor or bodies to fall into anyones hands....
And most importantly the Sunaj are smart enough to not run around using an ammunition type that is exclusive to the Aerhiman clan.
Which this would be like.
The GB shell is exclusive to Earth. So an alien race having an identical shell (and it must be identical to be compatable, that is what that means for ammunition to be able to be able to feed through feed mechanisims and then fire properly) would mean that they have used a rare propriatery technology only found on earth... as the core of their alien racial technology. A technology that at a minimum predates the development of the Boom Gun by centuries if not millennia.

ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:-That Archie, even though he has personally invented enough new technology to make all of his stuff "alien technology" can't design his own railgun and has to copy the GB one.

Could Archie have designed his own rail gun? Sure. One that takes a rather rare approach? Yes. Could Archie have based his railgun on an existing design? Yes. Could Archie be reusing an old design and just applied cosmetic changes? Yes (Shem Nation does confirms this with other weapons stated to be of "shemarrian origin"). Does Archie make mistakes? Yes (his attempt at playing "god", he hasn't changed any access codes to keep out the Republicans, Titan Robotics use of the Shem weapon w/o disguising it, etc).

Again I would point out that not all of his designs are just cosmetic. They explicitly state that some weapons are cosmetic and some weapons have cosmetic and modifications.
I would also point out that redesigning a weapon WILL change the ammunition if you want to change the ammunition (which it seems they did)
That is because ammunition needs to be of an exact specification to work in modern weapons.
You need to be of an exact length, diameter, and weight to properly feed through the feed mechinisims.
A rail gun will need the round to have the exact proper length, diameter, weight, and magnetic properties
A discarding flechette system will need to have the ammunition be designed to break apart at the exact proper time in the flight to match the desired ballistic curve and spread pattern.
It would literally be impossible to get the 'long skinny shell with horns' we see in the Shemarrian art and the shorter stubby shotgun shell' we see in GB art and use them in the same feeds. They would jam.
Now it might be possible to say that we should discard art.
But then we are back to "they are using identical ammunition and people will notice"


ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:-That even though these weapons are explicitly wildly different than the GB (no boom, no recoil, different damage, different range) they are really the same weapons

We are TOLD though the Shem Railgun has technology that "muffles the sonic boom" and reduces the recoil as far back as the original SB1. Damage/Range could come from the round or the gun itself:
-AT-1053 Rail Cannons (Pg160 WB8) use different explosive shells for their damage (same range)
-GAW Howitzerds & Mortors (MerOps pg128-7) and 120mm Auto-Cannon (pg128) uses different shells (same range)
-BRL-3 Rocket Launcher (SA2 pg82, can use conventional Mini-Missiles but at reduced range and only in direct fire mode)
-Various Stock Missile Systems. Each category of Missile (mini, short, medium, long) comes in variable damage/range, but are nearly always universally compatible which would indicate size wise they are interchangeable. This includes the original damage table users, which are also compatible with the CWC revised
-RT 2E also has a few examples (VHT-1 and Monster Destroid, their artillery cannons feature a selection of variable damage and range rounds they both fire)

And again you are proving my point FOR ME
Every one of your "different damage" ones? All use different rounds. As does every single existing rail gun in the canon that I am aware of. And every single caliber of bullet has a fixed damage. It is almost like the damage of a weapon is highly dependant on the round used or something.

As for the dampener and shock system. Yes we are told about them. But the problem is that pesky conservation of momentum thing.
The stated reason for the Boom and recoil is the vast speed of the shell being fired.
And the reason that it has the range and damage is explicitly based on that speed.
So if there is NOT such a speed and recoil then it can't be going at the same speed.
That sort of rules out the same shells (if nothing else they would break apart at the wrong time, or maybe not at all since they might not have sufficient velocity to 'arm' or 'shed')


ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:-That even though the Boom Gun round explicitly uses slugs (long rounded soft objects) and the Shemerian explicitly have shards (which implies that they are sharp quite possibly from a fragmentation casing) that they are really the same exact same thing.

SB1o (pg91) states "It fires a single flechette filled cartridge." So "shards" as you call them are likely poetic descriptions, not technical. RMB (pg219 and repeated in RUE and likely the C&Ps in WB8/22/MiO/WB5) when describing the RG-14 "...acclerate its flechette style rounds...". We know from elsewhere that those flechette style rounds are cylinderical slugs in a filled casing, which matches the Shem. system.

They describe the various flechettes each weapon uses.
GBs use slugs
Shemmarians use shards
Arkons use long thin arrows
They are not the same. They are explicitly described and trying to claim that an actual in line description of the weapon should be ignored because it provides evidence countering a potential house rule is...dubious.


ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:And that the drawings of the ammunitions are not accurate and that they actually intend to have them look identical. Same length, width, diameter, weight, magnetic values... everything.

We only have measurements for the RG-14 (7.5ft long) and its round (7" long), but not the Shem. 6000 Railgun or its round AFAIK. Given these weapons seem to be compared to the RG-14 it stands to reason they could be using compatible ammunition.

Um we have pictures.
Have you LOOKED at them
The Shemmarian rounds length is more multiples of its width. The Shemmarian round has four long horns on the end. Those two things ALONE are issues.
That is why there is a problem
Because the two pictures do NOT have the same length. The two pictures do NOT have identical features (one has horns one doesn't).
And that is before we get into diameter, weight, magnetic value, spin, timing, how they break, magnetic values (so they can be launched by the rail gun) slugs vs shards and all those other pesky internal things.
JUST the art itself has at least two points of incompatibility.

So at this point I am to believe that all Glitter Boy Boom Guns, All Naruni Flechette Rail Guns, and All Shemmarian Rail Guns all use identical interchangeable ammunition simply because they are "similar"
Even though every other 'similar' weapon in any other book can (and often does) use different ammunition.

To me this sounds like a Group of PCs trying to argue that the Shemmarian Rail Gun they captured isn't actually out of ammunition and they can just go buy all they want at the store because they are the first people in 300 years to ever notice that the two shells are exactly identical.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
guardiandashi
Hero
Posts: 1437
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:21 am

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by guardiandashi »

eliakon wrote:Again I would point out that not all of his designs are just cosmetic. They explicitly state that some weapons are cosmetic and some weapons have cosmetic and modifications.
I would also point out that redesigning a weapon WILL change the ammunition if you want to change the ammunition (which it seems they did)
That is because ammunition needs to be of an exact specification to work in modern weapons.
You need to be of an exact length, diameter, and weight to properly feed through the feed mechinisims.
A rail gun will need the round to have the exact proper length, diameter, weight, and magnetic properties
A discarding flechette system will need to have the ammunition be designed to break apart at the exact proper time in the flight to match the desired ballistic curve and spread pattern.
It would literally be impossible to get the 'long skinny shell with horns' we see in the Shemarrian art and the shorter stubby shotgun shell' we see in GB art and use them in the same feeds. They would jam.
Now it might be possible to say that we should discard art.
But then we are back to "they are using identical ammunition and people will notice"


nitpick what you are claiming is not actually correct.
there ARE distinct features that have to match "close enough" for a round to work in a gun but they don't have to be identical.
for instance look at .22 rounds there are several versions of .22 guns but at the end of the day some (but not all) of the rounds are interchangeable.

The 5.6 mm caliber or .22 caliber, is a small, extremely common size of ammunition, fitted to firearms with a bore diameter of 5.6 mm (0.22 in). It is the most common bore for rimfire ammunition, and has gained popularity in the air gun discipline as a hunting/field target/HFT pellet caliber.

5.6 mm caliber rimfire variations include:
.22 Long Rifle (LR), the most common cartridge type of this caliber, often referred to simply as ".22 caliber"
.22 BB (Bulleted Breech Cap)
.22 CB (Conical Ball Cap)
.22 CB cap, an American rimfire cartridge
.22 Long, same length, but lighter bullet than .22 LR
.22 Extra Long, an American rimfire rifle and handgun cartridge
.22 Short, used mostly in pocket pistols and mini-revolvers
.22 Winchester Rimfire, an American rimfire rifle cartridge
.22 WMR, (Winchester Magnum Rimfire) a cartridge that is longer and more powerful than a .22 LR
.22 Winchester Automatic, an American rimfire rifle cartridge

5.6 mm centerfire cartridges include:
5.56×45mm NATO, an intermediate cartridge widely used in modern sporting rifles
.22 Accelerator, a special loading of the .30-30, .308, and .30-06 cartridges that is manufactured by Remington
.22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer, a cartridge for a rifle
.22 Hornet, a powerful variation, also known as 5.6×35R mm 5.728mm
.22 Remington Jet, an American centerfire revolver and rifle cartridge
.22 BR Remington, a wildcat cartridge commonly used in varmint hunting and benchrest shooting
.22 Savage HP, a.k.a. 5.6×52R, .22 Savage Hi-power, .22 Imp, a cartridge similar to the 22 Hornet introduced by Savage in 1912
.22 Spitfire, an American rifle cartridge
.22 PPC, a firearm cartridge used primarily in benchrest shooting
.22 TCM (a.k.a. .22 Micro-Mag), a 9mm diameter case necked to a .22 caliber bullet and designed to load into standard 9mm magazines; currently proprietary of Rock Island Armory and accommodating of that company's pistols and carbines also sold with 9mm barrel swap kits.
now the "interesting thing" is that on some of those variants the only difference is things like the power load, or bullet weight or similar.

I have also read that you CAN load .22 (5.6mm) rounds into a gun like a m16 (which actually fires 5.56 mm rounds) the problem is that because most .22 rounds are not FMJ (Full Metal Jacketed) rounds there is excessive leading, meaning the bullets leave material behind in the barrel, additionally 5.56 ammo is a "hotter" round than most .22 ammo which leads to "squibs" which is where there was not enough pressure from the powder to send the bullet all the way down the barrel and out the muzzle.

eliakon wrote:-That even though the Boom Gun round explicitly uses slugs (long rounded soft objects) and the Shemerian explicitly have shards (which implies that they are sharp quite possibly from a fragmentation casing) that they are really the same exact same thing.

SB1o (pg91) states "It fires a single flechette filled cartridge." So "shards" as you call them are likely poetic descriptions, not technical. RMB (pg219 and repeated in RUE and likely the C&Ps in WB8/22/MiO/WB5) when describing the RG-14 "...acclerate its flechette style rounds...". We know from elsewhere that those flechette style rounds are cylinderical slugs in a filled casing, which matches the Shem. system.[/quote]
They describe the various flechettes each weapon uses.
GBs use slugs
Shemmarians use shards
Arkons use long thin arrows
They are not the same. They are explicitly described and trying to claim that an actual in line description of the weapon should be ignored because it provides evidence countering a potential house rule is...dubious.

[/quote]
as far as the slugs vs shards the picture for the "slugs" under the glitterboy boom gun and ammo indicates that either the authors didn't understand the distinction, or you are nitpicking and using a definition that is not correct for the meaning of the terms.

the definition of slug you are using doesn't actually line up with the drawings of the boomgun ammo drawing, which are 1inch long rounds that if in proportion would be 0.18in in diameter
using https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/smal ... _1849.html I determined that if the "submunitions" are 0.18in in diameter the cluster of submunitions (50) would have to be 1.47inches in diameter.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by eliakon »

guardiandashi wrote:
eliakon wrote:Again I would point out that not all of his designs are just cosmetic. They explicitly state that some weapons are cosmetic and some weapons have cosmetic and modifications.
I would also point out that redesigning a weapon WILL change the ammunition if you want to change the ammunition (which it seems they did)
That is because ammunition needs to be of an exact specification to work in modern weapons.
You need to be of an exact length, diameter, and weight to properly feed through the feed mechinisims.
A rail gun will need the round to have the exact proper length, diameter, weight, and magnetic properties
A discarding flechette system will need to have the ammunition be designed to break apart at the exact proper time in the flight to match the desired ballistic curve and spread pattern.
It would literally be impossible to get the 'long skinny shell with horns' we see in the Shemarrian art and the shorter stubby shotgun shell' we see in GB art and use them in the same feeds. They would jam.
Now it might be possible to say that we should discard art.
But then we are back to "they are using identical ammunition and people will notice"


nitpick what you are claiming is not actually correct.
there ARE distinct features that have to match "close enough" for a round to work in a gun but they don't have to be identical.
for instance look at .22 rounds there are several versions of .22 guns but at the end of the day some (but not all) of the rounds are interchangeable.

The 5.6 mm caliber or .22 caliber, is a small, extremely common size of ammunition, fitted to firearms with a bore diameter of 5.6 mm (0.22 in). It is the most common bore for rimfire ammunition, and has gained popularity in the air gun discipline as a hunting/field target/HFT pellet caliber.

5.6 mm caliber rimfire variations include:
.22 Long Rifle (LR), the most common cartridge type of this caliber, often referred to simply as ".22 caliber"
.22 BB (Bulleted Breech Cap)
.22 CB (Conical Ball Cap)
.22 CB cap, an American rimfire cartridge
.22 Long, same length, but lighter bullet than .22 LR
.22 Extra Long, an American rimfire rifle and handgun cartridge
.22 Short, used mostly in pocket pistols and mini-revolvers
.22 Winchester Rimfire, an American rimfire rifle cartridge
.22 WMR, (Winchester Magnum Rimfire) a cartridge that is longer and more powerful than a .22 LR
.22 Winchester Automatic, an American rimfire rifle cartridge

5.6 mm centerfire cartridges include:
5.56×45mm NATO, an intermediate cartridge widely used in modern sporting rifles
.22 Accelerator, a special loading of the .30-30, .308, and .30-06 cartridges that is manufactured by Remington
.22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer, a cartridge for a rifle
.22 Hornet, a powerful variation, also known as 5.6×35R mm 5.728mm
.22 Remington Jet, an American centerfire revolver and rifle cartridge
.22 BR Remington, a wildcat cartridge commonly used in varmint hunting and benchrest shooting
.22 Savage HP, a.k.a. 5.6×52R, .22 Savage Hi-power, .22 Imp, a cartridge similar to the 22 Hornet introduced by Savage in 1912
.22 Spitfire, an American rifle cartridge
.22 PPC, a firearm cartridge used primarily in benchrest shooting
.22 TCM (a.k.a. .22 Micro-Mag), a 9mm diameter case necked to a .22 caliber bullet and designed to load into standard 9mm magazines; currently proprietary of Rock Island Armory and accommodating of that company's pistols and carbines also sold with 9mm barrel swap kits.
now the "interesting thing" is that on some of those variants the only difference is things like the power load, or bullet weight or similar.

I have also read that you CAN load .22 (5.6mm) rounds into a gun like a m16 (which actually fires 5.56 mm rounds) the problem is that because most .22 rounds are not FMJ (Full Metal Jacketed) rounds there is excessive leading, meaning the bullets leave material behind in the barrel, additionally 5.56 ammo is a "hotter" round than most .22 ammo which leads to "squibs" which is where there was not enough pressure from the powder to send the bullet all the way down the barrel and out the muzzle.

When you start loading the wrong ammunition into military weapons that have feeds...
Like that M16?
Yep, you get horrible jamming and feed issues.
And your examples are all red herrings
They are not even REMOTELY similar to the situation here.
You are making the TOTALLY unsubstantiated claim that two of the three weapons are similar enough that their weapons are cross compatable... even though the art shows that there is no possible way.
AND you are making the further claim that gunpowder weapons are the same as railguns.
Which is utterly not true.
In a gunpowder weapon the bullet is propelled by the charge in the shell itself. Any given shell will have enough charge to propel its bullet the intended distance and velocity
In a railgun the only thing you are loading is the bullet, the gun ITSELF is the one propelling it. To do so it needs to be able to move that much weight, the right speed (magnetic values), and for a cartridge it must move it at the right velocity and/or spin to make it break apart at the right time.

two different .22 bullets are not 'similar' they are both .22 rounds
Two different bullets like a .30cal and a.50cal are similar. But your not going to be able to cross load the belts into the other machinegun. Even if they are both machineguns.
Heck you cant even put a .22 long into a .22short chambered weapon.


guardiandashi wrote:
eliakon wrote:-That even though the Boom Gun round explicitly uses slugs (long rounded soft objects) and the Shemerian explicitly have shards (which implies that they are sharp quite possibly from a fragmentation casing) that they are really the same exact same thing.

SB1o (pg91) states "It fires a single flechette filled cartridge." So "shards" as you call them are likely poetic descriptions, not technical. RMB (pg219 and repeated in RUE and likely the C&Ps in WB8/22/MiO/WB5) when describing the RG-14 "...acclerate its flechette style rounds...". We know from elsewhere that those flechette style rounds are cylinderical slugs in a filled casing, which matches the Shem. system.

They describe the various flechettes each weapon uses.
GBs use slugs
Shemmarians use shards
Arkons use long thin arrows
They are not the same. They are explicitly described and trying to claim that an actual in line description of the weapon should be ignored because it provides evidence countering a potential house rule is...dubious.

[/quote]
as far as the slugs vs shards the picture for the "slugs" under the glitterboy boom gun and ammo indicates that either the authors didn't understand the distinction, or you are nitpicking and using a definition that is not correct for the meaning of the terms.

the definition of slug you are using doesn't actually line up with the drawings of the boomgun ammo drawing, which are 1inch long rounds that if in proportion would be 0.18in in diameter
using https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/smal ... _1849.html I determined that if the "submunitions" are 0.18in in diameter the cluster of submunitions (50) would have to be 1.47inches in diameter.[/quote]
The book says "slugs" that means they use slugs
The book says "shards" that means they use shards
The book says "thin arrow like flechettes" so that is what those rounds use.
It isn't about the art. It is about the words in the weapon description. Calling the description of the weapon itself 'poetical' so as to discard the actual canon description of the weapon is uhhh no. You can't simply say "Well the canon says that this theory is wrong. So obviously the canon didn't really mean that so we should discard the canon so that we can embrace this theory"

And of course this STILL doesn't solve any of the OTHER problems
You know stuff like
-Why has no one noticed this before?
-Why are Shemmarian rail guns of limited utility if ammunition is plentiful
-Why do the Naruni use GB rounds? (This is the BIG ONE. Because every single argument that defends the compatibility issue holds up here too. Which means that either all three are the same or we can't say ANY of them are the same)
-Why do the Shemmarians have to load up lots of spare ammunition because resupply is not possible... if they can actually resupply in the field
-Why is Archie making every part of this plan meticulously crafted to hide the terrestrial links to the technology in any form... but leaving in the biggest most glaring piece of evidence that there could be in?
You know the little stuff.

Like I said you have to have ALL of the laundry list of implausible assumptions be true to make them compatible
You only need ONE of them to not be true to make them incompatible.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7655
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

eliakon wrote:I am curious. What connections specifically do they make in that book, what are they and what is the page number. Because simply asserting that they exist isn't proof of anything other than that you wish us to take your word for it.

I've already mentioned them several times in this thread. I do not see a need to repeat what I think are the connections between the two weapon systems.

eliakon wrote:Which leaves us with a binary state either state one ALL similar weapons use identical and thus fully compatible ammunitions , or state two similarity in a weapon is not proof of ammunition being identical.
Which is it?

No it doesn't. We know the Arkhons and Naruni are true aliens, so their compatibility would be a long shot. Arkhon system has several distinctions to (IIRC there system can fire bursts, there are only like 10 sub-munitions per canister, etc) so isn't really a factor here. Naruni is a business entity that is known to design weapons to require them to provide the ammunition (Plasma cartridge, micro-missiles, and K-Hex are examples that come to mind), so the odds are likely against it (plus performance wise they are not identical).

The Shemarrians true origins would allow for the weapons to be compatible. There are enough unknowns that would make it believable. PLUS people have noticed the Shems are using Native materials (and EARTH .30-06 ammo), but it hasn't brought them any undue attention, and it isn't like the Shems (or Titan since it is more likely to come up here) couldn't have modified their weapons to fire the "common" RG-14 cartridge.

eliakon wrote:Every one of your "different damage" ones? All use different rounds. As does every single existing rail gun in the canon that I am aware of. And every single caliber of bullet has a fixed damage. It is almost like the damage of a weapon is highly dependant on the round used or something.

They use different rounds in the same weapon with different performance. That almost makes the case that the Shem and BG rounds should be able to work interchangeably with different performance. The BG was how old when the great cataclysm happened? There is a good chance the military at least looked at multiple round types for the BG for different roles (realistically the ammo used is optimized for specific roles), Archie could be using one of those (and no one would be the wiser).

eliakon wrote:Um we have pictures.
Have you LOOKED at them

Yes I Have Looked at them. There are no measurements stated for the Shem. 6000 or its round. You talk about length to diameter ratios, the ratios aren't to far off enough that I could put it down to margin of error in measuring.

eliakon wrote:So at this point I am to believe that all Glitter Boy Boom Guns, All Naruni Flechette Rail Guns, and All Shemmarian Rail Guns all use identical interchangeable ammunition simply because they are "similar"
Even though every other 'similar' weapon in any other book can (and often does) use different ammunition.

1st I am not even considering Naruni in this for reasons previously stated.

2nd the only weapons I am considering are the RG-14 BG (maybe even its Triax knockoff) and Sh-60x0/4000 and the Titan "knockoff" because the later versions mention the RG-14 and how they are different but make no mention that ammo size is one of them. It can't be because these railguns fire single shots only, their are Railgun systems (AT-1053 and NG-R50) that are single shot only, but make no mention of the GB BG so evoking the BG comes across as linking it to the other guns more closely.
TeeAychEeMarchHare
Explorer
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:56 pm
Comment: War to the knife, knife to the hilt.

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by TeeAychEeMarchHare »

I can't believe this foolishness has gone on this long....

Let's just make things simple. If it's a mass driver, of ANY flavor (pistol caliber carbine, AK-74, FAL, M2 .50 cal, C40R, Boom Gun, main gun of the battleship USS Iowa, whatever is mounted on the capital ships in the Three Galaxies, etc), it uses the same ammo. There's as much reason to assume that that is true as there is to assume that the Shem and BG use the same ammo.

I think some people want to argue just for the sake of argument, no matter how preposterous their position is. The good thing about that is, it shows who can be disregarded from this point forward.

FFS....
Too much ammo is a self-correcting problem.
guardiandashi
Hero
Posts: 1437
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:21 am

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by guardiandashi »

TeeAychEeMarchHare wrote:I can't believe this foolishness has gone on this long....

Let's just make things simple. If it's a mass driver, of ANY flavor (pistol caliber carbine, AK-74, FAL, M2 .50 cal, C40R, Boom Gun, main gun of the battleship USS Iowa, whatever is mounted on the capital ships in the Three Galaxies, etc), it uses the same ammo. There's as much reason to assume that that is true as there is to assume that the Shem and BG use the same ammo.

I think some people want to argue just for the sake of argument, no matter how preposterous their position is. The good thing about that is, it shows who can be disregarded from this point forward.

FFS....

except that's not actually the case.

the argument really comes down to is it possible, that the shemarrian railgun and rg-14 could be loading and firing the same functional round even if they are cosmetically different.

another point that I feel required to call eliakon out on is that the RG-14's round is clearly NOT the same as "normal" railguns. I don't dispute that the samas, and all other railguns (the rail-machineguns) do not use gunpowder in any way or form.
On the other hand the rg-14's round doesn't add up in length if that is the case.
1 we KNOW the shell is 7 inches long overall.
2 we KNOW that there are 4 clusters of flechette submunitions that are each 1 inch long packed into the shell.
3 we KNOW that those clusters of submunitions are partially contained in a drop away sheath (or sabot /shoe)
4 there is somewhere around 3 inches of shell length that are not fully accounted for.
5 to me it is not beyond the realm of possibility that a large portion of that 3 inches is some form of gunpowder, which of course means... that the RG-14 isn't a "true railgun" but is in fact more of an electromagnetically BOOSTED cannon / shotgun. Ie the powder load would fire the submunitions down range at a relatively low speed, even as much as mach 2-5ish, and then the electro-magnetic system grabs onto the "projectile" (flechette cluster(s) / sabots) and accelerates them significantly by adding another several Mach to them.

(Personally I think the mach 2/5 speeds for the boomgun are still too low, and say they are actually closer to mach 7-15 but your opinion might vary. )

what I was actually trying to point out with my .22 example, is that a gun does have several variables as to the specifics as to what ammunition it fires.

for example in the .22 example while all the rounds are the same diameter, the specific weight, length, mass and shape of both the projectile and overall length of the shell in the sense of bullet and cartridge might vary.

a .22 short, a .22LR a.22long, and .22WMR may all fire the exact same bullet, but the length and powder loads behind them will vary. meaning you might be able to load a .22 short, a .22 long and a .22lr int a gun intended for a .22 WMR, but you will be a lot more likely to have issues. on the other hand a .22 LR could likely fire a .22 long round with only minor issues, but the round will loose performance, but if you load a .22 LR into a .22 long, you are likely to have serious issues even though the bullets are the same length overall and diameter, because the .22 long is not designed to handle the pressures that the .22LR will put out.

note I am not a gun nut or anything ... but I do read, and have a pretty good handle on the concepts involved.
User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Axelmania »

There are clear differences in ammo, but I do like the idea that any large gun can fire ammo from smaller guns, but they should probably tumble and be very ineffective, reducing damage and range and accuracy, maybe even damaging the weapon. But the idea it could be used in a pinch as a last-resort jury-rig is cool.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by eliakon »

ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:I am curious. What connections specifically do they make in that book, what are they and what is the page number. Because simply asserting that they exist isn't proof of anything other than that you wish us to take your word for it.

I've already mentioned them several times in this thread. I do not see a need to repeat what I think are the connections between the two weapon systems.

I cant find anything other than "They are similar". Which requires that Archie be intended to have GB tech pre-retcon to be identical.

ShadowLogan wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:Which leaves us with a binary state either state one ALL similar weapons use identical and thus fully compatible ammunitions , or state two similarity in a weapon is not proof of ammunition being identical.
Which is it?

No it doesn't. We know the Arkhons and Naruni are true aliens, so their compatibility would be a long shot. Arkhon system has several distinctions to (IIRC there system can fire bursts, there are only like 10 sub-munitions per canister, etc) so isn't really a factor here. Naruni is a business entity that is known to design weapons to require them to provide the ammunition (Plasma cartridge, micro-missiles, and K-Hex are examples that come to mind), so the odds are likely against it (plus performance wise they are not identical).

So what you are saying is that when it is similar and supports your case then they are interchangeable.
When it is similar and DOESN'T support your case then they are not.
I will point out a couple flaws here
1) I already KNOW the Arkhons use a different system, continuing to bring them up is a red herring
2) the Shemmarians are... wait for it... Supposed to be true aliens, all their tech is alien tech, none of it is complatable with earth tech and any rolls are at -20% even armory rolls...like reloading. Except you are saying the rolls for one device. Which is NOT considered alien tech... even though the book says it is it really meant to say differently.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Shemarrians true origins would allow for the weapons to be compatible. There are enough unknowns that would make it believable. PLUS people have noticed the Shems are using Native materials (and EARTH .30-06 ammo), but it hasn't brought them any undue attention, and it isn't like the Shems (or Titan since it is more likely to come up here) couldn't have modified their weapons to fire the "common" RG-14 cartridge.

No, the origins DONT help.
The .30-06 rifle came about recently, and is openly traded as well.
It is designed to be something that appears to be a new device that they built to interact with humans.
The railguns though are core Shemarrian tech that they supposedly have had, unchanged, for ages.


ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:Every one of your "different damage" ones? All use different rounds. As does every single existing rail gun in the canon that I am aware of. And every single caliber of bullet has a fixed damage. It is almost like the damage of a weapon is highly dependant on the round used or something.

They use different rounds in the same weapon with different performance. That almost makes the case that the Shem and BG rounds should be able to work interchangeably with different performance. The BG was how old when the great cataclysm happened? There is a good chance the military at least looked at multiple round types for the BG for different roles (realistically the ammo used is optimized for specific roles), Archie could be using one of those (and no one would be the wiser).

That doesn't hold water sorry.
In the 300+ years that the GB has been in continuous use no one has come up with any different ammunition loads for it.
That says to me that there are NOT different rounds for the same weapon with different performance. You can house rule in some of course, but there is ZERO canon support for that. And thus it can't be used to support a claim that these weapons are an example of such.

ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:Um we have pictures.
Have you LOOKED at them

Yes I Have Looked at them. There are no measurements stated for the Shem. 6000 or its round. You talk about length to diameter ratios, the ratios aren't to far off enough that I could put it down to margin of error in measuring.

I am talking about the horns.
Those screw up the ratio and would make it jam instantly. THAT is the sort of thing that matters in loading guns.

ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:So at this point I am to believe that all Glitter Boy Boom Guns, All Naruni Flechette Rail Guns, and All Shemmarian Rail Guns all use identical interchangeable ammunition simply because they are "similar"
Even though every other 'similar' weapon in any other book can (and often does) use different ammunition.

1st I am not even considering Naruni in this for reasons previously stated.

Which is a logical fallacy
You are saying that "All evidence that hurts my case should be excluded"
If a rail gun is "similar to the Boom Gun" then it is similar to the Boom Gun.
You do not get to pick which ones are similar enough to use the same ammo and which ones are not.

ShadowLogan wrote:2nd the only weapons I am considering are the RG-14 BG (maybe even its Triax knockoff) and Sh-60x0/4000 and the Titan "knockoff" because the later versions mention the RG-14 and how they are different but make no mention that ammo size is one of them. It can't be because these railguns fire single shots only, their are Railgun systems (AT-1053 and NG-R50) that are single shot only, but make no mention of the GB BG so evoking the BG comes across as linking it to the other guns more closely.

Again this is false logic.
You are trying to claim that just picking a few examples of 'similar' and excluding all others proves a universal rule.
First off. ALL Boom-guns use the same round. There is NOTHING in the canon that I am aware of that says other wise.
Therefor it is the RG-14... and every other Boom-gun on every other variation in existence ever up to and including that giant turtle in South America.
Second off. ALL the Shemmarian railguns ALSO state that they are 'similar' to the Boom-Gun. Therefore either they are all similar in the same way or they are not. This means that unless there is a statement to the contrary we must assume that all the Shemmarian Rail guns use the same alien round.

Thus we are left with ALL Boom-Gun rounds must be identical to ALL Shemmarian rounds (and ALL Naruni Flechette rounds but I digress)
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 28149
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

SB1 91

Undoubtedly, it would bring a high price, a million credits or more, but only if the purchaser realized what he was buying and planned to duplicate it, otherwise the weapon might sell for under 10,000 credits as an alien device with limited useability.

This isn't anything direct, but why would the Shemarrian Rail Gun have "limited useability?"
Probably because when you run out of ammo, there isn't any more, unless you're manufacturing it.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7655
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

eliakon wrote:I cant find anything other than "They are similar". Which requires that Archie be intended to have GB tech pre-retcon to be identical.

And in every case where the Shem. Railgun(s) are said to be "similar" they make a point of illustrating note worthy differences, but at no point does the size of the ammunition ever come into the situation.

SoT4 HLS even mentions the Shem weapons they are using (for them) a non-standard round for the CK Joust (weapon is also in a low power state since the Jousters aren't out to kill their opponent). This points toward the Shem Weapons as being flexible in the ammunition it can accept and fire, which means the RG-14 BG isn't going to be any different (nothing prevents users from changing what is inside the canister IINM). The main sticking point on if the weapons can share ammunition is the dimensions of their respective rounds, which we do not have for the Shem.6k family.

eliakon wrote:No, the origins DONT help.
The .30-06 rifle came about recently, and is openly traded as well.
It is designed to be something that appears to be a new device that they built to interact with humans.
The railguns though are core Shemarrian tech that they supposedly have had, unchanged, for ages.

How does anyone know the tech has remain unchanged for ages? The Shems have only been around on Earth for about decade in 109PA (Shem Nation pg27).

The .30-06 rifle is also primarily used by a caste of Shems previously unknown (prior to 108PA they where rumor/conjuncture per text). Nothing about it says that it is supposed to be a new device for the Shems "historically" AFAIK. So if their .30-06 is supposed to be pre-Earth contact, then that suggests they have ammunition that mirror Earth's (as Alternate Earth humans, or an example of convergent evolution, etc).

eliakon wrote:I am talking about the horns.
Those screw up the ratio and would make it jam instantly. THAT is the sort of thing that matters in loading guns.

I took the horns into consideration as part of the length. As the horns don't curve, put are straight I don't think that will have an impact, if it did we'd see that possibility in the Shem weapons I would think.

The T-72 Tank's 125mm cannon uses an auto-loader, and it's shells come in different shapes and does not appear to be factor in operations. (The M1A1's 120mm cannon shells are similar, but it uses manual loading)

eliakon wrote:Which is a logical fallacy
You are saying that "All evidence that hurts my case should be excluded"
If a rail gun is "similar to the Boom Gun" then it is similar to the Boom Gun.
You do not get to pick which ones are similar enough to use the same ammo and which ones are not.

Not really, in both cases there is more to it that.

We know Archie makes mistakes, and the Shems use compatible physical ammunition with some of their more "recent" designs (109PA vs ~99PA) which means they could be using compatible physical ammunition with their "older" designs (~99PA). It's just no one has been in a situation to test that (given the weapons are supposed to be destroyed with their owner).

We also know Naruni is known to produce weapon systems that require Naurni manufactured ammunition (Plasma Cartridges), which would allow for them to be excluded. That does not mean Naruni's system isn't compatible with one or both Earth systems, but it is not part of the question.

Killer Cyborg wrote:This isn't anything direct, but why would the Shemarrian Rail Gun have "limited useability?"
Probably because when you run out of ammo, there isn't any more, unless you're manufacturing it.

Titan Robotics has to be manufacturing it for users of their T-004 bot (it has their knockoff). Given statements about Titan in MercOps concerning availability of their products in general this means one of several things:
-A. Titan is more reliable for ammunition than their robotics platforms
-B. Due to demand someone is or will shortly be manufacturing ammunition for the Titan users besides Titan (w/ or w/o authorization, it also opens the door to further knockoffs of the design by BM/NG/WI/CS/FQ).
-C. The ammunition it fires is not the standard Shem Round depicted (game mechanically it is, but visually it isn't), we have an example of the weapon firing non-standard ammunition (SoT4) providing some precedent to the idea, so it could be a common Flechette round (means RG-14)
-D. The ammunition is not difficult to manufacture (isn't there a statement somewhere about how easy it is to make replacement rounds for the RG-14, or am I thinking of something from 2E RT), at least once you know what you are dealing with

I would think that the "limited usability" would come more from finding a working weapon with no ammunition (or your forced to use the ammunition before you can analyze the ammunition).
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 28149
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

ShadowLogan wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:This isn't anything direct, but why would the Shemarrian Rail Gun have "limited useability?"
Probably because when you run out of ammo, there isn't any more, unless you're manufacturing it.

Titan Robotics has to be manufacturing it for users of their T-004 bot (it has their knockoff).


Not when SB1 was written.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by eliakon »

ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:I cant find anything other than "They are similar". Which requires that Archie be intended to have GB tech pre-retcon to be identical.

And in every case where the Shem. Railgun(s) are said to be "similar" they make a point of illustrating note worthy differences, but at no point does the size of the ammunition ever come into the situation.

Which doesn't prove anything since rail gun ammunition is very rarely discussed.
By this logic virtually every rail gun on earth uses totally interchangeable ammunition since their isn't any text saying they do not...

AND of course it then brings us back to the Naruni weapon that is "similar" and does not say that it has different ammunition. If being "similar to a Boom-Gun" means "interchangeable ammunition" we are back to claiming that all three ammunitions are fully interchangeable.

ShadowLogan wrote:SoT4 HLS even mentions the Shem weapons they are using (for them) a non-standard round for the CK Joust (weapon is also in a low power state since the Jousters aren't out to kill their opponent). This points toward the Shem Weapons as being flexible in the ammunition it can accept and fire, which means the RG-14 BG isn't going to be any different (nothing prevents users from changing what is inside the canister IINM). The main sticking point on if the weapons can share ammunition is the dimensions of their respective rounds, which we do not have for the Shem.6k family.

This is a red herring.
Just because it can take a low power round of its own does not show it can take any other round.
My M-16 in the army could take training rounds. That did mean that I could put 9mm rounds in it, even though they were both military weapons. The presence of a Shemmmarian low power round does not have any relivance on if it is a Boom-Gun round or not. ESPECIALLY since there is no canon statement supporting the existence of such a round for the Boom-Gun nor of the ability to lower the power setting on the Boom-Gun.


ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:No, the origins DONT help.
The .30-06 rifle came about recently, and is openly traded as well.
It is designed to be something that appears to be a new device that they built to interact with humans.
The railguns though are core Shemarrian tech that they supposedly have had, unchanged, for ages.

How does anyone know the tech has remain unchanged for ages? The Shems have only been around on Earth for about decade in 109PA (Shem Nation pg27).

Because the Shmarrians are claiming that it is from their homeworld and such.

ShadowLogan wrote:The .30-06 rifle is also primarily used by a caste of Shems previously unknown (prior to 108PA they where rumor/conjuncture per text). Nothing about it says that it is supposed to be a new device for the Shems "historically" AFAIK. So if their .30-06 is supposed to be pre-Earth contact, then that suggests they have ammunition that mirror Earth's (as Alternate Earth humans, or an example of convergent evolution, etc).

The fact that the hunters came first and THEN they started making this rifle. Which I will note is something that will actually be traded and when examined is discovered to be based off of an extant human design changed to Shemmarian asthetics means that it is, wait for it... not intended to be shown to be an alien weapon that just coincidentally uses the exact same ammo, but was something build since coming here to allow them to use a local ammunition supply.
ALSO I will note that in AB1 this didn't exist and hadn't been thought of, and as such when the railgun was first introduced there was no example of ANY Shemmarian technology that was in anyway, shape or form compatable with earthly technology.

ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:I am talking about the horns.
Those screw up the ratio and would make it jam instantly. THAT is the sort of thing that matters in loading guns.

I took the horns into consideration as part of the length. As the horns don't curve, put are straight I don't think that will have an impact, if it did we'd see that possibility in the Shem weapons I would think.

The horns though ARE A HUGE PROBLEM
Either they are part of the length of the shell to arrive at the same length... which then means that the actual cartridge is shorter than the Boom-Gun cartridge and thus is not the same. OR they are not counted and are added on to a Boom-Gun round and then they mean that the Boom-Gun round is to short to fit in the Shemmarian loaders.
Take your pick.

ShadowLogan wrote:The T-72 Tank's 125mm cannon uses an auto-loader, and it's shells come in different shapes and does not appear to be factor in operations. (The M1A1's 120mm cannon shells are similar, but it uses manual loading)

None of the shells differences are a variable of 1/4 the length of the shell overall.

ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:Which is a logical fallacy
You are saying that "All evidence that hurts my case should be excluded"
If a rail gun is "similar to the Boom Gun" then it is similar to the Boom Gun.
You do not get to pick which ones are similar enough to use the same ammo and which ones are not.

Not really, in both cases there is more to it that.

We know Archie makes mistakes, and the Shems use compatible physical ammunition with some of their more "recent" designs (109PA vs ~99PA) which means they could be using compatible physical ammunition with their "older" designs (~99PA). It's just no one has been in a situation to test that (given the weapons are supposed to be destroyed with their owner).

That is in itself a logical fallacy. The premise that an action taken NOW will cause a change to an action taken in the past.
The Shemmarians of SB1 have to be considered in the light of what was available at that time. Thus the SB1 railguns need to be consistent with the game AT THAT TIME.

ShadowLogan wrote:We also know Naruni is known to produce weapon systems that require Naurni manufactured ammunition (Plasma Cartridges), which would allow for them to be excluded. That does not mean Naruni's system isn't compatible with one or both Earth systems, but it is not part of the question.

Again this is a false premise.
1) their missiles, e-clips and grenades are compatible. Only the ammunition for non-standard unique weapons that uses a specific form of ammunition needed to fire use non-standard unique ammunition.
2) it is again claiming that "Similar to a Boom-Gun" with no other disqualifying statement means that the ammunition is the same when convenient and different when it is not-convenient. Cherry picking in other words. As you are quite literally stating here that if it says similar and you want the two weapons to therefore match, they match but if they say similar and you do NOT want the two weapons to match, they therefore match. Even though they BOTH have the same reason to NOT match. To wit they are alien technology that either comes from another dimension or is designed to look like it does to any possible level of investigation.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:This isn't anything direct, but why would the Shemarrian Rail Gun have "limited useability?"
Probably because when you run out of ammo, there isn't any more, unless you're manufacturing it.

Titan Robotics has to be manufacturing it for users of their T-004 bot (it has their knockoff).

This doesn't follow. The weapon is a "knock off" that is "similar". Thus your making a circular argument that it uses identical ammunition because it is similar, and that similar weapons use identical ammunition because your premise is that similar weapons use identical ammunition. Which is proved because these two similar weapons use identical ammunition because similar weapons use identical ammunition...

ShadowLogan wrote:Given statements about Titan in MercOps concerning availability of their products in general this means one of several things:
-A. Titan is more reliable for ammunition than their robotics platforms
-B. Due to demand someone is or will shortly be manufacturing ammunition for the Titan users besides Titan (w/ or w/o authorization, it also opens the door to further knockoffs of the design by BM/NG/WI/CS/FQ).
-C. The ammunition it fires is not the standard Shem Round depicted (game mechanically it is, but visually it isn't), we have an example of the weapon firing non-standard ammunition (SoT4) providing some precedent to the idea, so it could be a common Flechette round (means RG-14)
-D. The ammunition is not difficult to manufacture (isn't there a statement somewhere about how easy it is to make replacement rounds for the RG-14, or am I thinking of something from 2E RT), at least once you know what you are dealing with

None of which demonstrates anything connecting the Titan Robot weapons ammunition to the Boom-Guns ammunition.
In fact it helps to demonstrate that they are different since it is pretty much impossible that soldiers are not going to notice that the ammunition for their Glitter-Boy and their T-004 are identical. Unless we presume that no one who has any familiarity with the Glitter Boy will ever be around a T-004. Ever. Which I think is so unlikely as to not even merit consideration. With in a week of it showing up in Showrooms the ammunition will be looked at by the logistics people of dozens of mercenary forces, militaries, and intelligence forces. Free Quebec if no one else would instantly notice that it uses GB rounds.


ShadowLogan wrote:I would think that the "limited usability" would come more from finding a working weapon with no ammunition (or your forced to use the ammunition before you can analyze the ammunition).

So what you are saying is that... it is limited usability because you are going to assume that no one will have ever acquired a gun and its ammo. Ever. AND that no one firing it has ever noticed that the spent casings that they pick up are identical to a Boom-Gun round. And that this has happened every time and is in fact predicated to happen every time so there is no possible consideration, ever, that anyone will ever notice that it uses regular ammunition.
Uhhhhh. That is a pretty specious argument there
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Colonel_Tetsuya
Champion
Posts: 2172
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

guardiandashi wrote:
TeeAychEeMarchHare wrote:I can't believe this foolishness has gone on this long....

Let's just make things simple. If it's a mass driver, of ANY flavor (pistol caliber carbine, AK-74, FAL, M2 .50 cal, C40R, Boom Gun, main gun of the battleship USS Iowa, whatever is mounted on the capital ships in the Three Galaxies, etc), it uses the same ammo. There's as much reason to assume that that is true as there is to assume that the Shem and BG use the same ammo.

I think some people want to argue just for the sake of argument, no matter how preposterous their position is. The good thing about that is, it shows who can be disregarded from this point forward.

FFS....

except that's not actually the case.

the argument really comes down to is it possible, that the shemarrian railgun and rg-14 could be loading and firing the same functional round even if they are cosmetically different.


No, they cant. The round physically must touch the rails. If the outer shell is different, it wont even fit. The Shemarian round is different, with horn-shaped protrusions on the front. It wouldnt even fit down the rails of the RG-14 or Triax Boom Guns.

People seem to have this idea that the rounds in railguns and coilguns never touch the rails/a barrel - neither is true. Railguns derive their motive force from briding the rails - the round physically touches the rails; coilguns (practical ones that will be jostled or moved while firing) have their coils wrapped AROUND a barrel; otherwise, any lateral force greater than than the force generated keeping them moving forward could send them tumbling down the coils, destroying the gun entirely.

another point that I feel required to call eliakon out on is that the RG-14's round is clearly NOT the same as "normal" railguns. I don't dispute that the samas, and all other railguns (the rail-machineguns) do not use gunpowder in any way or form.
On the other hand the rg-14's round doesn't add up in length if that is the case.
1 we KNOW the shell is 7 inches long overall.
2 we KNOW that there are 4 clusters of flechette submunitions that are each 1 inch long packed into the shell.
3 we KNOW that those clusters of submunitions are partially contained in a drop away sheath (or sabot /shoe)
4 there is somewhere around 3 inches of shell length that are not fully accounted for.


It's a rail gun. Part of the shell/round has to be a solid ferromagnetic piece... that's how the shell goes down the barrel. It actually has to bridge the rails, physically. The shell the current Navy railgun uses is like this - the back 4-5" of the outer shell/sabot is the metal part that actually bridges the rails.

5 to me it is not beyond the realm of possibility that a large portion of that 3 inches is some form of gunpowder, which of course means... that the RG-14 isn't a "true railgun" but is in fact more of an electromagnetically BOOSTED cannon / shotgun. Ie the powder load would fire the submunitions down range at a relatively low speed, even as much as mach 2-5ish, and then the electro-magnetic system grabs onto the "projectile" (flechette cluster(s) / sabots) and accelerates them significantly by adding another several Mach to them.


This is so silly. This would actually degrade the performance of the gun. Any distance used up allowing the chemical propellant to accelerate the round is distance lost for the rails; the rails are FAR more efficient than any chemical propellant over the same distance.

(Personally I think the mach 2/5 speeds for the boomgun are still too low, and say they are actually closer to mach 7-15 but your opinion might vary. )


Absurdly low, actually. The naval rail gun is already at Mach 7.3 and isnt even at their power target yet (only about 60% power). Assuming the Boom Gun is more advanced than anything we're developing now (which i actually dont grant; we're starting to see what would be considered, in Rifts, light MD materials and light-medium MDC weapons (the naval rail gun will literaly liquify over two feet of steel at almost 20 miles right now - and that's with a lighter round and lower power than the eventual goal), then it would almost assuredly have to be faster to get that much damage out of that much less mass.

what I was actually trying to point out with my .22 example, is that a gun does have several variables as to the specifics as to what ammunition it fires.

for example in the .22 example while all the rounds are the same diameter, the specific weight, length, mass and shape of both the projectile and overall length of the shell in the sense of bullet and cartridge might vary.

a .22 short, a .22LR a.22long, and .22WMR may all fire the exact same bullet, but the length and powder loads behind them will vary. meaning you might be able to load a .22 short, a .22 long and a .22lr int a gun intended for a .22 WMR, but you will be a lot more likely to have issues.


Depending on the chambering, it wont even fire or will blow up in your hands. If the round isnt long enough to engage the barrel immediately, even the slightest lateral force could send it into the barrel sides off-angle. Its a lot more complicated than you're thinking it is.

on the other hand a .22 LR could likely fire a .22 long round with only minor issues,


As long as the rounds are the same dimensions, easily.

but the round will loose performance,


It wont lose performance, it just wont perform like a .22 LR round will, because of less powder.

but if you load a .22 LR into a .22 long, you are likely to have serious issues even though the bullets are the same length overall and diameter, because the .22 long is not designed to handle the pressures that the .22LR will put out.

note I am not a gun nut or anything ... but I do read, and have a pretty good handle on the concepts involved.


Your posts certainly aren't displaying that. In fact, theyre displaying rather the opposite. The overall length of the round matters just as much as the caliber of the bullet.
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
Colonel_Tetsuya
Champion
Posts: 2172
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:This isn't anything direct, but why would the Shemarrian Rail Gun have "limited useability?"
Probably because when you run out of ammo, there isn't any more, unless you're manufacturing it.

Titan Robotics has to be manufacturing it for users of their T-004 bot (it has their knockoff).


Not when SB1 was written.


Also, there's no particular evidence that the Titan fires the same round, cosmetically/externally. Its based on the same gun, enough so that careful examination of a Shemarian gun and the Titan gun side by side would reveal its a copy, but there's nothing saying that the round is identical - that it has the forward-facing horns/protrusions, etc.

If it doesn't have those, then it wouldn't likely fire from the Shemarian version of the gun. Also, the new Titan robot is just that - new - and of limited numbers. The only place you can reliably even get ammo or repairs for it is in Manistique, so it isnt likely Shemarians are going to be able to roll into town and pick up ammo for their guns, even if it DOES fire the same round.

Now, there is also nothing saying that the Titan's gun DOESNT fire the same round. We just dont know. But even if it does, it will never be as common as the Glitter Boy and is VERY unlikely to be available in any place Shemarians could ever feasibly resupply in the field. I doubt the Operators in Char (or whatever that town in Dino Swamp is called) are carrying reloads for a brand new, rare robot.
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7655
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

@KC
You are right that it wasn't an issue when SB1 was written, but timeline wise at some point between SB1o and MercOps and then post MercOps it is an issue. So while it is less of an issue circa SB1o, but circa MercOps it will be an issue that needs to be addressed.

eliakon wrote:Which doesn't prove anything since rail gun ammunition is very rarely discussed.
By this logic virtually every rail gun on earth uses totally interchangeable ammunition since their isn't any text saying they do not...

Which is true, but the fact that it isn't discussed in great deal like means that the writers mean two things:
A. Within reason, the ammunition is interchangeable because it is of the same type (canister flechette, slug, explosive shell, etc)
B. Every Gun Model uses Unique Ammo. That means the C-40R, NG-101, NG-202, and the countless other Railguns all use unique ammo.

For game purposes and even from a logistics perspective I see A being more likely than B. It'd be nice if Palladium gave some type of caliber rating on their projectile weapons to clarify this issue, but they don't.

eliakon wrote:AND of course it then brings us back to the Naruni weapon that is "similar" and does not say that it has different ammunition. If being "similar to a Boom-Gun" means "interchangeable ammunition" we are back to claiming that all three ammunitions are fully interchangeable.

As far as I'm concerned the issue of Naruni compatibility does nothing to answer the question of weather the specific Glitter Boy Boom gun and Shemarrian Railgun (and its variants) can share ammunition. So I am not going to consider or discuss them further as that is moving the goal post.

eliakon wrote:This is a red herring.
Just because it can take a low power round of its own does not show it can take any other round.

Who says that it can take any other round? I am not claiming that it can take just "any other round" either.

eliakon wrote:The horns though ARE A HUGE PROBLEM
Either they are part of the length of the shell to arrive at the same length... which then means that the actual cartridge is shorter than the Boom-Gun cartridge and thus is not the same. OR they are not counted and are added on to a Boom-Gun round and then they mean that the Boom-Gun round is to short to fit in the Shemmarian loaders.
Take your pick.

The question is NOT are the RG-14 and Shem6000 firing identical rounds, it IS ARE they firing compatible rounds. To be compatible does not require they be identical in all aspects.

And I'll point out AGAIN we don't have actual dimensions on the Shem. Round AFAIK. So if you have them please provide the page reference(s). The illustration that depicts them lacks that necessary bit of information.

eliakon wrote:That is in itself a logical fallacy. The premise that an action taken NOW will cause a change to an action taken in the past.
The Shemmarians of SB1 have to be considered in the light of what was available at that time. Thus the SB1 railguns need to be consistent with the game AT THAT TIME.

AT THAT TIME SB1o I would still say the guns are firing compatible ammunition. There was no reason for the Shem entry to evoke the Boom Gun in its description, the Shem's themselves are ~80% the size of a GB which would allow them to wield a GB BG in terms of size, the gun has a different approach to recoil management, it also features a sonic boom suppressor (RMB does not use that term in the railgun section, though they do mention the noise being mechanically suppressed). Both weapons also fire a canister with sub-munitions in similar quantity (200 vs "hundreds", functionally the same), though the sub-munition itself is different (but that is irrelevant since they are both within the shell casing).

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:It's a rail gun. Part of the shell/round has to be a solid ferromagnetic piece... that's how the shell goes down the barrel. It actually has to bridge the rails, physically. The shell the current Navy railgun uses is like this - the back 4-5" of the outer shell/sabot is the metal part that actually bridges the rails.


Then what is the purpose of the Labeled "Casing-Ejector" in the GB illustrations (pg221 RMB, RUE has it but you'd have to blow the image up), it even shows the spent casing being ejected? Almost as if the weapon here operates by accelerating the sub-munitions and not the shell casing which totally negates your explanation for the other 3".

NOTE: I do not have an issue with the missing 3", you have the thickness of the top/bottom and potentially a spacer layer between the layers of slugs. But at the same time I don't see a need for the separate Casing-Ejector since I see the shell (and its contents) being accelerated down the barrel, but given this feature of the RG-14 I'd have to say the shell is only used as a package deliver to the barrel and the contents inside it are accelerated.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by eliakon »

ShadowLogan wrote:@KC
You are right that it wasn't an issue when SB1 was written, but timeline wise at some point between SB1o and MercOps and then post MercOps it is an issue. So while it is less of an issue circa SB1o, but circa MercOps it will be an issue that needs to be addressed.

eliakon wrote:Which doesn't prove anything since rail gun ammunition is very rarely discussed.
By this logic virtually every rail gun on earth uses totally interchangeable ammunition since their isn't any text saying they do not...

Which is true, but the fact that it isn't discussed in great deal like means that the writers mean two things:
A. Within reason, the ammunition is interchangeable because it is of the same type (canister flechette, slug, explosive shell, etc)
B. Every Gun Model uses Unique Ammo. That means the C-40R, NG-101, NG-202, and the countless other Railguns all use unique ammo.

False dichotomy
There is more than just the two options you are presenting.
C. Railguns have various ammunition types and the specifics are not really covered that much because Rifts is not that big on tracking logistics and thus we only know it is not A because many rail guns DO talk about their ammo demonstrating that they use different ammunition.

ShadowLogan wrote:For game purposes and even from a logistics perspective I see A being more likely than B. It'd be nice if Palladium gave some type of caliber rating on their projectile weapons to clarify this issue, but they don't.

A is demonstrably false by canon though as there are many places where the canon explicitly states that this rail gun derives is superior damage from better ammunition, or that this other uses a special ammunition or the like. Not to mention that ammunition is often described in various different shapes.
Thus we know, for a fact, that A is not true.

This incidentally also proves that B. is not true since some railguns are compatible. Thus proving that your 'choice' was a false one.



ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:This is a red herring.
Just because it can take a low power round of its own does not show it can take any other round.

Who says that it can take any other round? I am not claiming that it can take just "any other round" either.

Please do not take statements out of context and thus change what is being said. The entire statement was this
eliakon wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:SoT4 HLS even mentions the Shem weapons they are using (for them) a non-standard round for the CK Joust (weapon is also in a low power state since the Jousters aren't out to kill their opponent). This points toward the Shem Weapons as being flexible in the ammunition it can accept and fire, which means the RG-14 BG isn't going to be any different (nothing prevents users from changing what is inside the canister IINM). The main sticking point on if the weapons can share ammunition is the dimensions of their respective rounds, which we do not have for the Shem.6k family.

This is a red herring.
Just because it can take a low power round of its own does not show it can take any other round.
My M-16 in the army could take training rounds. That did mean that I could put 9mm rounds in it, even though they were both military weapons. The presence of a Shemmmarian low power round does not have any relevance on if it is a Boom-Gun round or not. ESPECIALLY since there is no canon statement supporting the existence of such a round for the Boom-Gun nor of the ability to lower the power setting on the Boom-Gun.

and it IS important.
1) the guns in the Joust were modified Shemmarian rifles.
2) the book explicitly states that Shemmarian rifles are slimmer than Boom Guns
3) these weapons are using a modified round
So lets look at what exactly that means
1) It means that unmodified Shmmarian rifles are NOT "flexible in the rounds they take" since they had to be modified to fire these rounds
2) It says that they are slimmer than a Boom-Gun which is a good sign that they are using slimmer rounds... which means that a Boom Gun round will not fit in the barrel
3) That there is nothing in the book that suggests that Boom-Guns can take any other ammunition type.


ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:The horns though ARE A HUGE PROBLEM
Either they are part of the length of the shell to arrive at the same length... which then means that the actual cartridge is shorter than the Boom-Gun cartridge and thus is not the same. OR they are not counted and are added on to a Boom-Gun round and then they mean that the Boom-Gun round is to short to fit in the Shemmarian loaders.
Take your pick.

The question is NOT are the RG-14 and Shem6000 firing identical rounds, it IS ARE they firing compatible rounds. To be compatible does not require they be identical in all aspects.

To be compatable they need to be physically compatable.
That means they need to be at least with in certain tolerances of each other.
Thus to get the length/diameter issue we run into a huge problem.
On one hand we have the right length and diameter, but totally the wrong weight which means the gun will not fire them properly, or at all, as it is not calibrated to fire the heavier ammunition
On the other hand to get the right weight, the ammunition is now totally the wrong length and diameter and thus will not fit the loading mechanisms.

ShadowLogan wrote:And I'll point out AGAIN we don't have actual dimensions on the Shem. Round AFAIK. So if you have them please provide the page reference(s). The illustration that depicts them lacks that necessary bit of information.

We are going off of the ratios here. Number of height/widths to the length and then going over to the Boom-Gun round and doing the same.


ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:That is in itself a logical fallacy. The premise that an action taken NOW will cause a change to an action taken in the past.
The Shemmarians of SB1 have to be considered in the light of what was available at that time. Thus the SB1 railguns need to be consistent with the game AT THAT TIME.

AT THAT TIME SB1o I would still say the guns are firing compatible ammunition. There was no reason for the Shem entry to evoke the Boom Gun in its description, the Shem's themselves are ~80% the size of a GB which would allow them to wield a GB BG in terms of size, the gun has a different approach to recoil management, it also features a sonic boom suppressor (RMB does not use that term in the railgun section, though they do mention the noise being mechanically suppressed). Both weapons also fire a canister with sub-munitions in similar quantity (200 vs "hundreds", functionally the same), though the sub-munition itself is different (but that is irrelevant since they are both within the shell casing).

And at that time I would have argued that it was even more absurd.
At that time Archie had no access to Glitter-Boy technology, and the only similarity was that they were the only two railguns that fired canister shot.
But as they were explicitly stated to be designed to be totally alien down to their e-clips I would have assumed (and did) that their ammunition was also designed to be alien.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:It's a rail gun. Part of the shell/round has to be a solid ferromagnetic piece... that's how the shell goes down the barrel. It actually has to bridge the rails, physically. The shell the current Navy railgun uses is like this - the back 4-5" of the outer shell/sabot is the metal part that actually bridges the rails.


Then what is the purpose of the Labeled "Casing-Ejector" in the GB illustrations (pg221 RMB, RUE has it but you'd have to blow the image up), it even shows the spent casing being ejected? Almost as if the weapon here operates by accelerating the sub-munitions and not the shell casing which totally negates your explanation for the other 3".

NOTE: I do not have an issue with the missing 3", you have the thickness of the top/bottom and potentially a spacer layer between the layers of slugs. But at the same time I don't see a need for the separate Casing-Ejector since I see the shell (and its contents) being accelerated down the barrel, but given this feature of the RG-14 I'd have to say the shell is only used as a package deliver to the barrel and the contents inside it are accelerated.

The shell casing may be ejected after breaking open and launching the sub-munitions.
The shell casing may be a protective sheath around the entire cartridge that protects the metal from corrosion or dirt that would interfere with optimal contact that is stripped off by the feed mechanism as part of the firing process.
The shell casing may be a number of things, but with out further information we are not able to speculate on what it is. However we do know that it is claimed to be a rail gun, and thus the status quo is that it is, in fact, a rail gun. Proving that it is NOT a rail gun will require evidence as the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim that the status quo is wrong.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by eliakon »

ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:AND of course it then brings us back to the Naruni weapon that is "similar" and does not say that it has different ammunition. If being "similar to a Boom-Gun" means "interchangeable ammunition" we are back to claiming that all three ammunitions are fully interchangeable.

As far as I'm concerned the issue of Naruni compatibility does nothing to answer the question of weather the specific Glitter Boy Boom gun and Shemarrian Railgun (and its variants) can share ammunition. So I am not going to consider or discuss them further as that is moving the goal post.

It is not moving the goal post. The goal post is still exactly where it was, demonstrating by use of evidence that the Boom Gun and the Shemmarian use compatable ammunition based on the text that says that they are similar. Nothing has changed. All that I did was point out that there is a third weapon with the exact same text and that thus by the standards that were presented as proof of compatability that it too must be compatable.
Now you are telling me that you are unwilling to consider this new evidence. Even though the evidence is based on the standard that you set up yourself, and uses your own criteria.
I am confused
To reiterate.
The fundamental issue here is that BOTH the Shemarrian Railgun and the Naruni Rail gun have identical text (similar to a Boom-Gun) in their descriptions.
For the Shemarrian you claim this text (Similar to a Boom-Gun) is proof that they use compatible/identical ammunition
For the Naruni you claim that this text (Similar to a Boom-Gun) is irrelevant and should be ignored.
That seems to be a rather fundamental problem. As it goes straight to the heart of the most basic criteria that was laid out for demonstrating why the two weapons should be considered compatible in the first place. All other issues are tangential discussions which are predicated on the premise that this issue is actually true. If it is not true, then nothing else discussed here matters as every other issue becomes moot.

This Is A Rather Severe And Fundemental Problem



This was so fundamental and basic that I split it off into its own post because it literally underpins every other discussion here.
If it is not true then none of the other discussions matter, because their primary presumption has just been demonstrated to be not valid.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7655
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

eliakon wrote:and it IS important.
1) the guns in the Joust were modified Shemmarian rifles.
2) the book explicitly states that Shemmarian rifles are slimmer than Boom Guns
3) these weapons are using a modified round
So lets look at what exactly that means
1) It means that unmodified Shmmarian rifles are NOT "flexible in the rounds they take" since they had to be modified to fire these rounds
2) It says that they are slimmer than a Boom-Gun which is a good sign that they are using slimmer rounds... which means that a Boom Gun round will not fit in the barrel
3) That there is nothing in the book that suggests that Boom-Guns can take any other ammunition type.

I do not see how #2 works since slimming down the RG-14 could be done and not effect the barrel's inner diameter (the most important measure). A GB has a lot of bulk that could be removed or slimmed down and not impact the barrel size.

Just what modifications have been actually done to the weapon? Only 3 things jump out IMHO. One is they are powered down to non-lethal status (atleast for a CK). Two they have their built in targeting disabled for the joust. Three they can be mounted to the CK's Robot Horse (something the stock weapon doesn't do with the A-002 robot mount AFAIK).

That is it. The second modification appears "toggable" IMHO, and the first is implied to be "adjustable" by the later by the "line" and "sinker" text (one hits harder and they get stolen). Nothing equates the "sponge round" to being a modified standard round in any way. So either the "powered down" nature of the weapon allows the standard round to be weaker OR it is a different type of round (since text talks of "bumps and bruises" instead of "cuts" from the joust it seems more likely the rounds are different since "shards" would leave cuts I would think and not "bumps and bruises").

eliakon wrote:To be compatable they need to be physically compatable.
That means they need to be at least with in certain tolerances of each other.
Thus to get the length/diameter issue we run into a huge problem.
On one hand we have the right length and diameter, but totally the wrong weight which means the gun will not fire them properly, or at all, as it is not calibrated to fire the heavier ammunition
On the other hand to get the right weight, the ammunition is now totally the wrong length and diameter and thus will not fit the loading mechanisms.

Diameter I agree with. The length is less important to an extent since we know real weapons using auto-feeds can use rounds with variable lengths and not pose an issue. The only way length is an issue is if the round is to long for the gun to accept through the feed port (could manually feed it down the barrel I suppose old-school, but that would cut the ROF way down).

And how heavy is a Glitterboy Round? How heavy is a Shem 6000 Round? Looking at Shem Nation (and SB1o) we know the mass and payload numbers for various options to supply rounds to the weapons, but when you do the math you end up with 3 different values, and they are not close (a clip @5.3kg per round, backpack option @16.3kg per round, drum @4.7kg per round). So you are wildly speculating on the mass of the individual rounds here impacting performance since we lack that information in canon.

eliakon wrote:We are going off of the ratios here. Number of height/widths to the length and then going over to the Boom-Gun round and doing the same.

And as I said, the ratios are close enough when I did them I could put them down to measurement error on my part.

eliakon wrote:And at that time I would have argued that it was even more absurd.
At that time Archie had no access to Glitter-Boy technology, and the only similarity was that they were the only two railguns that fired canister shot.
But as they were explicitly stated to be designed to be totally alien down to their e-clips I would have assumed (and did) that their ammunition was also designed to be alien.

It should also be pointed out that Archie is Cyberworks in NA, and per SB1o (pg60) Cyberworks was involved in the GB "This lead to some early developmental work on the Glitter Boy power armor", so if Archie is Cyberworks, then he has potential access to GB technology from that route (maybe not the final form, but early work). He could also have GB technology he recovered from the US military base he is located at that could have it as the GB is a US Military weapon system (RMB pg218).

All of which points to access to GB-technology. Though one has to wonder just what is specifically GB-technology and what isn't. The RG-14 is a single shot railgun. We have other railguns in RMB/SB1o, and some of those railguns can fire single shots IINM optionally instead of bursts. And Titan Robotics does produce a railgun for the T-001 Robot (RMB pg215), so we know Cyberworks has railgun technology and the railgun in question is presented as firing single round or bursts for damage (ROF is combined HTH attacks).

Sure Archie's technology is considered alien per text, but how "alien" can you actually make a canister round or even a bullet for a railgun? Size and cosmetics are the only things that come to mind. Cosmetics though aren't likely to have a large impact in terms of compatibility, and size could still happen and be put down to coincidence (or result of requirements resulting in the same size).
User avatar
Jefffar
Supreme Being
Posts: 8690
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 1:01 am
Comment: Being a moderator doesn't mean I speak for Palladium Books. It just makes me the lifeguard at their pool.
Location: Unreality
Contact:

Re: Can a Glitterboy and Shemmarian Share Railgun Ammunition

Unread post by Jefffar »

I think we've exhausted the evidence and are starting to cicle argue here. So well leave it for the readers to make up their own minds.
Official Hero of the Megaverse

Dead Boy wrote:All hail Jefffar... King of the Mods

Co-Holder with Ice Dragon of the "Lando Calrissian" award for Smooth. - Novastar

Palladium Forums of the Megaverse Rules

If you need to contact Palladium Books for any reason, click here.
Locked

Return to “Rifts®”