Cyber-Knights: What do they fully work against...

[HWalsh]

This has come up in my game, and I'm just gathering input.

I, playing the CK, was asked (by the GM) what CK's should work against OOC and asked if there were any official rulings on some of the questionable ones... So... Here it is:

We know they work against all guns.
We know they work against all TW Items. (as it has the word Tech in the name)
We know they work against Vibro-Weapons.
We know they work against all Robots.
We know they work against vehicles, etc.
We know if you have cybernetics/bionics it works against you.

Those are the obvious ones.

There are two that aren't considered:
1. Juicers
2. Crazies

They have an implanted bio-comp, but their powers are mostly from the drugs. Do they count?
What about Crazies? Their implants just mess with their brain chemistry which is what creates their powers. Should Zen-Combat work against them?

[Ed]

This has come up in my game, and I'm just gathering input.

I, playing the CK, was asked (by the GM) what CK's should work against OOC and asked if there were any official rulings on some of the questionable ones... So... Here it is:

We know they work against all guns.
We know they work against all TW Items. (as it has the word Tech in the name)
We know they work against Vibro-Weapons.
We know they work against all Robots.
We know they work against vehicles, etc.
We know if you have cybernetics/bionics it works against you.

Those are the obvious ones.

There are two that aren't considered:
1. Juicers
2. Crazies

They have an implanted bio-comp, but their powers are mostly from the drugs. Do they count?
What about Crazies? Their implants just mess with their brain chemistry which is what creates their powers. Should Zen-Combat work against them?

Crazies are cybernetic, so yes. Juicers, no. Of course if either is using a gun, vibroblade, or vehicle the zen combat effects them.

[eliakon]

I would say that both a crazy and juicer owe their bonuses to implants and technology.
Thus yes, as written they get their full bonuses against them.
This would make Cyber-Knights one of the few effective forces that can handle juicers with ease.

[Axelmania]

I had to do a double take, for some reason I only thought it wroed on futuristic guns with computers in them and stuff. Apparently it just has to be a weapon with "moving parts" though. I guess this means it works against crossbows?

"+3 on I initiative against attacks from modern guns" is odd.

What then of non-modern gun?

[eliakon]

I had to do a double take, for some reason I only thought it wroed on futuristic guns with computers in them and stuff. Apparently it just has to be a weapon with "moving parts" though. I guess this means it works against crossbows?

"+3 on I initiative against attacks from modern guns" is odd.

What then of non-modern gun?

Sure...Antique firearms (Black powder I would suspect) might not get the bonus.

[Nightmask]

There's no reason that the cyber-knight would get the special anti-tech bonuses against a Crazy or a Juicer. While the Juicer's got the cyber-comp that regulates their drugs it has no actual relation/interaction with the Juicers bonuses and wouldn't give the Cyber-Knight any ability to read what they're doing, for similar reasons they aren't going to be reading what a Crazy is going to do just because they've got cyber-implants.

[HWalsh]

There's no reason that the cyber-knight would get the special anti-tech bonuses against a Crazy or a Juicer. While the Juicer's got the cyber-comp that regulates their drugs it has no actual relation/interaction with the Juicers bonuses and wouldn't give the Cyber-Knight any ability to read what they're doing, for similar reasons they aren't going to be reading what a Crazy is going to do just because they've got cyber-implants.

I kind of thought that too, but it also works on targets wearing EBA straight in the text. So it doesn't need to affect the target's stats in any way.

[SpiritInterface]

Where does it say that CK abilities work against TW?

[eliakon]

There's no reason that the cyber-knight would get the special anti-tech bonuses against a Crazy or a Juicer. While the Juicer's got the cyber-comp that regulates their drugs it has no actual relation/interaction with the Juicers bonuses and wouldn't give the Cyber-Knight any ability to read what they're doing, for similar reasons they aren't going to be reading what a Crazy is going to do just because they've got cyber-implants.

I would say the exact opposite.
That cyber-comp is regulating their drugs at all times to keep them 'in the zone'... that sounds exactly like "technology is giving them an edge'
It is certainly far more invasive use of technology than picking up a gun or wearing a suit of EBA, and yet both of those will trigger the power.

As for a Crazy. Their entire class is cybernetic. Every single ability that they have they have because of the effects of their M.O.M. implants. How is that NOT technology.

[Killer Cyborg]

Would a CK's powers work if he's fighting somebody with a pacemaker?

[HWalsh]

Where does it say that CK abilities work against TW?

There is a specific call out on RUE page 66 for the level 9 ability. And if the TW weapon has moving parts, computer chips, and/or uses electricity it is a viable target. The T in TW does stand for Tech.

[eliakon]

Would a CK's powers work if he's fighting somebody with a pacemaker?

For the same reason that a pacemaker is not considered by the rules to be a cybernetic implant...
...no.
Heck if you have cybernetics that have no relation to combat they won't matter either (Cyber-Breasts, a headjack, and some Velcro tabs won't trigger a CK)
But that's not what either a Juicer or a Crazy have.
Both of them are fully weaponized cybernetic systems. They are sort of the exact sort of thing that was being talked about when it says that it negates the bonuses from cybernetics...

[Killer Cyborg]

Would a CK's powers work if he's fighting somebody with a pacemaker?

For the same reason that a pacemaker is not considered by the rules to be a cybernetic implant...
...no.
Heck if you have cybernetics that have no relation to combat they won't matter either (Cyber-Breasts, a headjack, and some Velcro tabs won't trigger a CK)

Do you have a source for those claims?

But that's not what either a Juicer or a Crazy have.
Both of them are fully weaponized cybernetic systems. They are sort of the exact sort of thing that was being talked about when it says that it negates the bonuses from cybernetics...

I disagree.
None of the cybernetic systems in a Juicer or a Crazy target the Cyber-Knight; they target the M&M with the systems, not any opponent.
Similar to a pacemaker. Or, if you prefer, a cybernetic heart or cybernetic liver.

They're not "weaponized systems." They're systems that enhance the person who has them.

I do agree that RAW states that the power "negates any bonuses provided by the weapon/machine," but I don't think that Juicers and Crazies were what the writers had in mind.
Literally negating any bonuses provided by the machine would turn either type of M&M into a normal person, by negating all the bonuses that the implants give them.
I find it hard to believe that the writers intended that result.

[Killer Cyborg]

The T in TW does stand for Tech.

"Tech?" No.
"Techno."

[eliakon]

Would a CK's powers work if he's fighting somebody with a pacemaker?

For the same reason that a pacemaker is not considered by the rules to be a cybernetic implant...
...no.
Heck if you have cybernetics that have no relation to combat they won't matter either (Cyber-Breasts, a headjack, and some Velcro tabs won't trigger a CK)

Do you have a source for those claims?

Ummm the book?
Unless you have a citation that says that those fall under the listed categories of weapons or sensors or cybernetic combat enhancements...

But that's not what either a Juicer or a Crazy have.
Both of them are fully weaponized cybernetic systems. They are sort of the exact sort of thing that was being talked about when it says that it negates the bonuses from cybernetics...

I disagree.
None of the cybernetic systems in a Juicer or a Crazy target the Cyber-Knight; they target the M&M with the systems, not any opponent.
Similar to a pacemaker. Or, if you prefer, a cybernetic heart or cybernetic liver.

They're not "weaponized systems." They're systems that enhance the person who has them.

I do agree that RAW states that the power "negates any bonuses provided by the weapon/machine," but I don't think that Juicers and Crazies were what the writers had in mind.
Literally negating any bonuses provided by the machine would turn either type of M&M into a normal person, by negating all the bonuses that the implants give them.
I find it hard to believe that the writers intended that result.

They EXPLICITLY mention that a cybernetic muscle activating is sufficient.
And then there is the fact that EBA is explicitly mentioned. EBA which only affects the wearer mind you.
They even then go and explicitly give certain technology a specific exemption (vibro-blades and other melee hand weapons).

That is pretty clear that the writers knew that they were saying "this affects all technology la la la, yes even that one." And that the power is one of explicit exceptions (this or that specifically is exempt) not one of "well we didn't mention it, so consider it to be a loop hole congratulations"

So yes, your juicer is going to lose any bonuses that his technology would give him...
...ANYTHING that he gets from his bio-comp is going to go bye-bye. You get to keep your PS for the same reason that a Cyber-Knight power doesn't 'turn off' a cyborg's MDC...
...but your auto-doge? That is supposedly a function of your perfectly balanced drugs... so nope.

[Nightmask]

There's no reason that the cyber-knight would get the special anti-tech bonuses against a Crazy or a Juicer. While the Juicer's got the cyber-comp that regulates their drugs it has no actual relation/interaction with the Juicers bonuses and wouldn't give the Cyber-Knight any ability to read what they're doing, for similar reasons they aren't going to be reading what a Crazy is going to do just because they've got cyber-implants.

I would say the exact opposite.
That cyber-comp is regulating their drugs at all times to keep them 'in the zone'... that sounds exactly like "technology is giving them an edge'
It is certainly far more invasive use of technology than picking up a gun or wearing a suit of EBA, and yet both of those will trigger the power.

As for a Crazy. Their entire class is cybernetic. Every single ability that they have they have because of the effects of their M.O.M. implants. How is that NOT technology.

That is not even remotely logical. You're trying to argue that because their drugs are measured by a machine that somehow that means a Cyber-Knight's anti-tech ability somehow gives them a bonus against the DRUGS and what the DRUGS are doing when the machine has NOTHING to do with giving those bonuses, the drugs do.

Meanwhile the Crazy's abilities are all psychic, they aren't technological. Just because an implant is stimulating parts of the Crazy's brain to create specific psychic effects none of those effects are actually technological in nature so that a Cyber-Knight could gain bonuses against them. Their enhanced abilities in the end derive from their brains including the bonuses, the cyber-implants may be unlocking those abilities but they aren't actually producing the abilities so there should be zero reason for a Cyber-Knight to get bonuses against them. That's completely beyond the scope of their anti-tech training and abilities.

[Killer Cyborg]

Would a CK's powers work if he's fighting somebody with a pacemaker?

For the same reason that a pacemaker is not considered by the rules to be a cybernetic implant...
...no.
Heck if you have cybernetics that have no relation to combat they won't matter either (Cyber-Breasts, a headjack, and some Velcro tabs won't trigger a CK)

Do you have a source for those claims?

Ummm the book?

Oh.
You consider that to be a valid citation?
Okay...

Unless you have a citation that says that those fall under the listed categories of weapons or sensors or cybernetic combat enhancements...

I most certainly do have a citation that says those fall under the listed categories:
The Book.

But that's not what either a Juicer or a Crazy have.
Both of them are fully weaponized cybernetic systems. They are sort of the exact sort of thing that was being talked about when it says that it negates the bonuses from cybernetics...

I disagree.
None of the cybernetic systems in a Juicer or a Crazy target the Cyber-Knight; they target the M&M with the systems, not any opponent.
Similar to a pacemaker. Or, if you prefer, a cybernetic heart or cybernetic liver.

They're not "weaponized systems." They're systems that enhance the person who has them.

I do agree that RAW states that the power "negates any bonuses provided by the weapon/machine," but I don't think that Juicers and Crazies were what the writers had in mind.
Literally negating any bonuses provided by the machine would turn either type of M&M into a normal person, by negating all the bonuses that the implants give them.
I find it hard to believe that the writers intended that result.

They EXPLICITLY mention that a cybernetic muscle activating is sufficient.

Are you under the impression that Juicers and Crazies have cybernetic muscles?

And then there is the fact that EBA is explicitly mentioned. EBA which only affects the wearer mind you.

But EBA as a rule does not provide any bonuses.
Negating the bonuses of EBA doesn't affect things significantly.
Negating a MOM or Juicer implant does.

That is pretty clear that the writers knew that they were saying "this affects all technology la la la, yes even that one." And that the power is one of explicit exceptions (this or that specifically is exempt) not one of "well we didn't mention it, so consider it to be a loop hole congratulations"

So yes, your juicer is going to lose any bonuses that his technology would give him...
...ANYTHING that he gets from his bio-comp is going to go bye-bye. You get to keep your PS for the same reason that a Cyber-Knight power doesn't 'turn off' a cyborg's MDC...

That's a contradiction.
One of the bonuses that the bio-comp grants a Juicer is +2d6 to PS.
It's listed on RUE 79, under "Special Juicer OCC Bonuses & Abilities."

...but your auto-doge? That is supposedly a function of your perfectly balanced drugs... so nope.

The auto-dodge is a function of the bonus/ability "Super-Reflexes and Reaction Time."
It's listed on RUE 79, right along with the PS bonus, the PE bonus, the Speed bonus, and other bonuses.
RAW, yes, auto-dodge would vanish along with the other bonuses.
But I don't think that was the intent.

[HWalsh]

Would a CK's powers work if he's fighting somebody with a pacemaker?

For the same reason that a pacemaker is not considered by the rules to be a cybernetic implant...
...no.
Heck if you have cybernetics that have no relation to combat they won't matter either (Cyber-Breasts, a headjack, and some Velcro tabs won't trigger a CK)

Do you have a source for those claims?

Ummm the book?

Oh.
You consider that to be a valid citation?
Okay...

Unless you have a citation that says that those fall under the listed categories of weapons or sensors or cybernetic combat enhancements...

I most certainly do have a citation that says those fall under the listed categories:
The Book.

But that's not what either a Juicer or a Crazy have.
Both of them are fully weaponized cybernetic systems. They are sort of the exact sort of thing that was being talked about when it says that it negates the bonuses from cybernetics...

I disagree.
None of the cybernetic systems in a Juicer or a Crazy target the Cyber-Knight; they target the M&M with the systems, not any opponent.
Similar to a pacemaker. Or, if you prefer, a cybernetic heart or cybernetic liver.

They're not "weaponized systems." They're systems that enhance the person who has them.

I do agree that RAW states that the power "negates any bonuses provided by the weapon/machine," but I don't think that Juicers and Crazies were what the writers had in mind.
Literally negating any bonuses provided by the machine would turn either type of M&M into a normal person, by negating all the bonuses that the implants give them.
I find it hard to believe that the writers intended that result.

They EXPLICITLY mention that a cybernetic muscle activating is sufficient.

Are you under the impression that Juicers and Crazies have cybernetic muscles?

And then there is the fact that EBA is explicitly mentioned. EBA which only affects the wearer mind you.

But EBA as a rule does not provide any bonuses.
Negating the bonuses of EBA doesn't affect things significantly.
Negating a MOM or Juicer implant does.

That is pretty clear that the writers knew that they were saying "this affects all technology la la la, yes even that one." And that the power is one of explicit exceptions (this or that specifically is exempt) not one of "well we didn't mention it, so consider it to be a loop hole congratulations"

So yes, your juicer is going to lose any bonuses that his technology would give him...
...ANYTHING that he gets from his bio-comp is going to go bye-bye. You get to keep your PS for the same reason that a Cyber-Knight power doesn't 'turn off' a cyborg's MDC...

That's a contradiction.
One of the bonuses that the bio-comp grants a Juicer is +2d6 to PS.
It's listed on RUE 79, under "Special Juicer OCC Bonuses & Abilities."

...but your auto-doge? That is supposedly a function of your perfectly balanced drugs... so nope.

The auto-dodge is a function of the bonus/ability "Super-Reflexes and Reaction Time."
It's listed on RUE 79, right along with the PS bonus, the PE bonus, the Speed bonus, and other bonuses.
RAW, yes, auto-dodge would vanish along with the other bonuses.
But I don't think that was the intent.

I wouldn't think that a Juicer/Crazy would lose their stat bonuses. I would just think the strike/parry/init bonuses/penalties listed on RUE 65/66 would kick in.

Like the CK could use his/her auto dodge and such.

I never considered things like stripping out the Juicer/Crazy powers

[Killer Cyborg]

I wouldn't think that a Juicer/Crazy would lose their stat bonuses. I would just think the strike/parry/init bonuses/penalties listed on RUE 65/66 would kick in.

Like the CK could use his/her auto dodge and such.

I never considered things like stripping out the Juicer/Crazy powers

Good. We're on close to the same page on that, then.

With those CK abilities, look at what they do:
1. Negate any bonuses provided by the weapon/machine.
The only bonuses provided by the implants are the kind that I described, and I think we agree that those stay.

2. +3 init against attacks from modern guns and machines. Also, +3 to strike and parry.
The implants do not attack, so they would not trigger these bonuses. An attack from a Juicer/Crazy is not an "attack from a machine."

3. The Ck's gun-toting or tech-laden opponent is -3 to dodge the CK's attacks, and loses 2 melee attacks due to time spent compensating for the CK's amazing agility, combat skills, and awareness.
THIS one is the one that I think might be applied, if anybody/everybody with cybernetics/bionics is considered to be a "tech-laden opponent."
Which is why I asked about people with pacemakers. I could see an argument for them being similarly "tech-laden."

[HWalsh]

I wouldn't think that a Juicer/Crazy would lose their stat bonuses. I would just think the strike/parry/init bonuses/penalties listed on RUE 65/66 would kick in.

Like the CK could use his/her auto dodge and such.

I never considered things like stripping out the Juicer/Crazy powers

Good. We're on close to the same page on that, then.

With those CK abilities, look at what they do:
1. Negate any bonuses provided by the weapon/machine.
The only bonuses provided by the implants are the kind that I described, and I think we agree that those stay.

2. +3 init against attacks from modern guns and machines. Also, +3 to strike and parry.
The implants do not attack, so they would not trigger these bonuses. An attack from a Juicer/Crazy is not an "attack from a machine."

3. The Ck's gun-toting or tech-laden opponent is -3 to dodge the CK's attacks, and loses 2 melee attacks due to time spent compensating for the CK's amazing agility, combat skills, and awareness.
THIS one is the one that I think might be applied, if anybody/everybody with cybernetics/bionics is considered to be a "tech-laden opponent."
Which is why I asked about people with pacemakers. I could see an argument for them being similarly "tech-laden."

I could see the CK getting the Strike/Parry bonus. As that doesn't specify guns and it makes no sense to get a strike bonus against someone because they're holding a gun, but not one if they have an implant.

I think the dodge and attack per round penalty would apply because it's generated from the CKs agility and skill augmented by awareness which they would have regarding the implant.

[dreicunan]

I'd concur with HWalsh on the logic of the strike/parry bonus also being applied. The way it is written does not connect it to the same limitations as the initiative bonus.

By the way, has anyone come up with a good system for these limited initiative bonuses, or do we all just end up saying it applies against everyone so long as anyone that triggers it is in the fight?

[HWalsh]

I'd concur with HWalsh on the logic of the strike/parry bonus also being applied. The way it is written does not connect it to the same limitations as the initiative bonus.

By the way, has anyone come up with a good system for these limited initiative bonuses, or do we all just end up saying it applies against everyone so long as anyone that triggers it is in the fight?

We're trying to hash that out in our group at the moment. We have 2 CKs and so we're spending a bit of time figuring it out.

[HWalsh]

I think the simple way to do it would be to just go off of the average. So if most opponents are tech, just go with that.

I mean, it is really the only way.

[Blue_Lion]

So the cyber knights power would work against a club if some one attached a pin wheel to the end for looks?

[Axelmania]

If machines are part of the attack then I think it counts.

If we exclude juicers for having an intermediate step of flesh, why not exclude energy weapons because it is the laser beam doing the damage rather than the gun making the laser?

[eliakon]

So the cyber knights power would work against a club if some one attached a pin wheel to the end for looks?

Since the books already explicitly covered this...
...no.
I get that its a pretty cool attempt to make an absurd claim which then can be used to undermine the actual discussion... but no.

[Todd Yoho]

The problem is that all of you are presuming the horrificly terrible...reimagining...of the Cyber-Knight needs to exist in your games. Its the Jar-Jar Binks of class "updates" back when that was a thing. Go grab a copy of the original Rifts book; it has the real Cyber-Knight class.

[eliakon]

The problem is that all of you are presuming the horrificly terrible...reimagining...of the Cyber-Knight needs to exist in your games. Its the Jar-Jar Binks of class "updates" back when that was a thing. Go grab a copy of the original Rifts book; it has the real Cyber-Knight class.

Yes we are sort of assuming that Canon is actually Canon.
If we want to use our own personal house rules then it doesn't matter what the canon says, we are already not using it so we can do what we want.

[dreicunan]

This conversation has reminded me of the discussion about Juicers and Cold-blooded, and if becoming one could avoid detox penalties. I'm not looking to reopen that, but it did get me thinking about if the bonus cancelling would apply to a Juicer. In my own games, I'd probably go for a compromise and rule that they lose half their combat bonuses (same penalty as first round of combat when they have to get jolted awake, but for all rounds that they fight the Cyber-Knight), including the loss of one of their two attacks per melee granted as an OCC bonus, as well as having no auto-dodge while in combat with the cyber knight. My reasoning would be that if the Cyber-Knight can muck with bonuses provides by PA or targeting sights, he can muck up a biocomp as well.

[Blue_Lion]

So the cyber knights power would work against a club if some one attached a pin wheel to the end for looks?

Since the books already explicitly covered this...
...no.
I get that its a pretty cool attempt to make an absurd claim which then can be used to undermine the actual discussion... but no.

Actually I was just wondering if the book covered mechanical parts that do not affect the weapon. Was wondering if they set a limit on what counted as tech because by the book a weapon with moving part the CK can detect. He may not give it a penalty but he can sense react to it.

PG 65-The Knight is aware of and able to react to all mechanical devices and weapons used by that particular oppenent, including guns, vibro blades, neural mace, EBA, PA Cyber.bionics weapons and systems computers, optics systems, sensorss, robots, vehicles and other devices. Basically any machine with moving parts.

Page 66-Penalties apply to PA, robots combat vehicles, cyborg systems all energy weapons, any weapon utlizing a sensor or optic systems as well as TW guns and other TW machines. The penalty does not apply to hand held melee weapons such as V-blades or nero maces, modern bows and arrows nor rune weapons.

So while the CK can react to the V-blade the user of such weapons is not subject to the -2. (I do not think the intent was for it to block skill or aiming bonuses but built in weapon bonuses and optics bonuses.)

The juicers is kind of a iffy while a computer does dispense drugs it is the drugs that provide a bonus not the computer the computer is just motioning the juicer. So the CK might know the juicers is getting more of drug X and have an idea of the juicers health unless he is using a weapon that applies a penalty he would not get the penalty and nothing with moving parts to cause loosing his bonuses. The bonuses come from drugs not the computer.

The crazy would not get his bonuses and be subject to the penalty just as both TW and cyberware are.

-My question was more about what is the minimal threshold for tech to react not stopping topic with an absurd claim it was a question after all. Now then where in the book does it state no such a thing is not affected or trigger a CK power because I can not seam to find the books no.

[Nightmask]

This conversation has reminded me of the discussion about Juicers and Cold-blooded, and if becoming one could avoid detox penalties. I'm not looking to reopen that, but it did get me thinking about if the bonus cancelling would apply to a Juicer. In my own games, I'd probably go for a compromise and rule that they lose half their combat bonuses (same penalty as first round of combat when they have to get jolted awake, but for all rounds that they fight the Cyber-Knight), including the loss of one of their two attacks per melee granted as an OCC bonus, as well as having no auto-dodge while in combat with the cyber knight. My reasoning would be that if the Cyber-Knight can muck with bonuses provides by PA or targeting sights, he can muck up a biocomp as well.

Except the bio-comp is responsible for NONE of the bonuses the Juicer actually has, the drugs are where he gains the bonuses from. There's no ability to perceive the abilities/bonuses of the Juicer through the Bio-Comp because it doesn't actually provide any of those bonuses. If memory serves it's also impossible for any psychic ability to usurp control over someone's cybernetics or bionics so the Cyber-Knight can't do anything to interfere with the activities of the Bio-Comp.

[HWalsh]

This conversation has reminded me of the discussion about Juicers and Cold-blooded, and if becoming one could avoid detox penalties. I'm not looking to reopen that, but it did get me thinking about if the bonus cancelling would apply to a Juicer. In my own games, I'd probably go for a compromise and rule that they lose half their combat bonuses (same penalty as first round of combat when they have to get jolted awake, but for all rounds that they fight the Cyber-Knight), including the loss of one of their two attacks per melee granted as an OCC bonus, as well as having no auto-dodge while in combat with the cyber knight. My reasoning would be that if the Cyber-Knight can muck with bonuses provides by PA or targeting sights, he can muck up a biocomp as well.

Except the bio-comp is responsible for NONE of the bonuses the Juicer actually has, the drugs are where he gains the bonuses from. There's no ability to perceive the abilities/bonuses of the Juicer through the Bio-Comp because it doesn't actually provide any of those bonuses. If memory serves it's also impossible for any psychic ability to usurp control over someone's cybernetics or bionics so the Cyber-Knight can't do anything to interfere with the activities of the Bio-Comp.

While I personally don't think the CK would mess with the bonuses for simple balance and just annoying levels of book keeping. (What did you roll on that d4 at character creation?)

It is important to note:
Zen Combat *is not* a psychic power. It's a Chi power. Specifically codified as a different thing. The Cyber-Knight can explicitly mess with cybernetics and bionics.

If you have a cyber eye that grants a +2 to strike? Nope that doesn't work on the Cyber-Knight. If you have built in sensors? Nope. The Cyber-Knight can muck with them.

Worse than that... You don't know about it.

That is what makes CKs scary for PCs. The characters have no idea that CKs mess with tech. The books are very clear on it. You don't know why your sensors suddenly crapped out. You don't know why your missile didn't lock. You don't understand how the CK detected that sniper shot and dodged it (at a certain level) at all.

[Nightmask]

This conversation has reminded me of the discussion about Juicers and Cold-blooded, and if becoming one could avoid detox penalties. I'm not looking to reopen that, but it did get me thinking about if the bonus cancelling would apply to a Juicer. In my own games, I'd probably go for a compromise and rule that they lose half their combat bonuses (same penalty as first round of combat when they have to get jolted awake, but for all rounds that they fight the Cyber-Knight), including the loss of one of their two attacks per melee granted as an OCC bonus, as well as having no auto-dodge while in combat with the cyber knight. My reasoning would be that if the Cyber-Knight can muck with bonuses provides by PA or targeting sights, he can muck up a biocomp as well.

Except the bio-comp is responsible for NONE of the bonuses the Juicer actually has, the drugs are where he gains the bonuses from. There's no ability to perceive the abilities/bonuses of the Juicer through the Bio-Comp because it doesn't actually provide any of those bonuses. If memory serves it's also impossible for any psychic ability to usurp control over someone's cybernetics or bionics so the Cyber-Knight can't do anything to interfere with the activities of the Bio-Comp.

While I personally don't think the CK would mess with the bonuses for simple balance and just annoying levels of book keeping. (What did you roll on that d4 at character creation?)

It is important to note:
Zen Combat *is not* a psychic power. It's a Chi power. Specifically codified as a different thing. The Cyber-Knight can explicitly mess with cybernetics and bionics.

If you have a cyber eye that grants a +2 to strike? Nope that doesn't work on the Cyber-Knight. If you have built in sensors? Nope. The Cyber-Knight can muck with them.

Worse than that... You don't know about it.

That is what makes CKs scary for PCs. The characters have no idea that CKs mess with tech. The books are very clear on it. You don't know why your sensors suddenly crapped out. You don't know why your missile didn't lock. You don't understand how the CK detected that sniper shot and dodged it (at a certain level) at all.

Doesn't really matter though since none of the Juicers bonuses are from the bio-comp they're all from the drugs that they're on. It would be a ridiculous stretch to argue that because the drugs are injected by a machine that the bonuses are now tech-based when they wouldn't be if injected manually. It would be completely beyond the scope of the Cyber-Knight's anti-tech abilities.

[Nightmask]

The problem is that all of you are presuming the horrificly terrible...reimagining...of the Cyber-Knight needs to exist in your games. Its the Jar-Jar Binks of class "updates" back when that was a thing. Go grab a copy of the original Rifts book; it has the real Cyber-Knight class.

Yes we are sort of assuming that Canon is actually Canon.
If we want to use our own personal house rules then it doesn't matter what the canon says, we are already not using it so we can do what we want.

Doesn't the book also actually say that it's up to the GM whether or not some, all, or none of the Cyber-Knights fit the new anti-tech version? I haven't the book handy (and have trouble reading print books anymore) but I seem to remember that it's not required that all Cyber-Knights become the anti-tech version that was later released.

[HWalsh]

This conversation has reminded me of the discussion about Juicers and Cold-blooded, and if becoming one could avoid detox penalties. I'm not looking to reopen that, but it did get me thinking about if the bonus cancelling would apply to a Juicer. In my own games, I'd probably go for a compromise and rule that they lose half their combat bonuses (same penalty as first round of combat when they have to get jolted awake, but for all rounds that they fight the Cyber-Knight), including the loss of one of their two attacks per melee granted as an OCC bonus, as well as having no auto-dodge while in combat with the cyber knight. My reasoning would be that if the Cyber-Knight can muck with bonuses provides by PA or targeting sights, he can muck up a biocomp as well.

Except the bio-comp is responsible for NONE of the bonuses the Juicer actually has, the drugs are where he gains the bonuses from. There's no ability to perceive the abilities/bonuses of the Juicer through the Bio-Comp because it doesn't actually provide any of those bonuses. If memory serves it's also impossible for any psychic ability to usurp control over someone's cybernetics or bionics so the Cyber-Knight can't do anything to interfere with the activities of the Bio-Comp.

While I personally don't think the CK would mess with the bonuses for simple balance and just annoying levels of book keeping. (What did you roll on that d4 at character creation?)

It is important to note:
Zen Combat *is not* a psychic power. It's a Chi power. Specifically codified as a different thing. The Cyber-Knight can explicitly mess with cybernetics and bionics.

If you have a cyber eye that grants a +2 to strike? Nope that doesn't work on the Cyber-Knight. If you have built in sensors? Nope. The Cyber-Knight can muck with them.

Worse than that... You don't know about it.

That is what makes CKs scary for PCs. The characters have no idea that CKs mess with tech. The books are very clear on it. You don't know why your sensors suddenly crapped out. You don't know why your missile didn't lock. You don't understand how the CK detected that sniper shot and dodged it (at a certain level) at all.

Doesn't really matter though since none of the Juicers bonuses are from the bio-comp they're all from the drugs that they're on. It would be a ridiculous stretch to argue that because the drugs are injected by a machine that the bonuses are now tech-based when they wouldn't be if injected manually. It would be completely beyond the scope of the Cyber-Knight's anti-tech abilities.

The Bio-Comp doesn't just pump drugs randomly. It's a complicated machine that reacts to the user. You can't inject them manually.

The Bio-Comp adjusts natural endorphins, releases drugs in as needed micro bursts. Monitors heart rate. Monitors stress and anxiety.

The CKs trick stops a well balanced weapon from being well balanced. It could easily stop a Bio-Comp from releasing adrenaline at the right moment. Of not releasing enough dopamine, or shooting in too much opioid painkiller.

To a CK that Bio-Comp data might as well be a giant neon sign that tells him what the Juicer is going to do.

"Adrenaline spike." - "The Juicer is about to attack."
"Increase blood oxygen saturation." - "He's getting tired."
"Release pentazamin." - "He's going to shoot a gun."

[Nightmask]

This conversation has reminded me of the discussion about Juicers and Cold-blooded, and if becoming one could avoid detox penalties. I'm not looking to reopen that, but it did get me thinking about if the bonus cancelling would apply to a Juicer. In my own games, I'd probably go for a compromise and rule that they lose half their combat bonuses (same penalty as first round of combat when they have to get jolted awake, but for all rounds that they fight the Cyber-Knight), including the loss of one of their two attacks per melee granted as an OCC bonus, as well as having no auto-dodge while in combat with the cyber knight. My reasoning would be that if the Cyber-Knight can muck with bonuses provides by PA or targeting sights, he can muck up a biocomp as well.

Except the bio-comp is responsible for NONE of the bonuses the Juicer actually has, the drugs are where he gains the bonuses from. There's no ability to perceive the abilities/bonuses of the Juicer through the Bio-Comp because it doesn't actually provide any of those bonuses. If memory serves it's also impossible for any psychic ability to usurp control over someone's cybernetics or bionics so the Cyber-Knight can't do anything to interfere with the activities of the Bio-Comp.

While I personally don't think the CK would mess with the bonuses for simple balance and just annoying levels of book keeping. (What did you roll on that d4 at character creation?)

It is important to note:
Zen Combat *is not* a psychic power. It's a Chi power. Specifically codified as a different thing. The Cyber-Knight can explicitly mess with cybernetics and bionics.

If you have a cyber eye that grants a +2 to strike? Nope that doesn't work on the Cyber-Knight. If you have built in sensors? Nope. The Cyber-Knight can muck with them.

Worse than that... You don't know about it.

That is what makes CKs scary for PCs. The characters have no idea that CKs mess with tech. The books are very clear on it. You don't know why your sensors suddenly crapped out. You don't know why your missile didn't lock. You don't understand how the CK detected that sniper shot and dodged it (at a certain level) at all.

Doesn't really matter though since none of the Juicers bonuses are from the bio-comp they're all from the drugs that they're on. It would be a ridiculous stretch to argue that because the drugs are injected by a machine that the bonuses are now tech-based when they wouldn't be if injected manually. It would be completely beyond the scope of the Cyber-Knight's anti-tech abilities.

The Bio-Comp doesn't just pump drugs randomly. It's a complicated machine that reacts to the user. You can't inject them manually.

The Bio-Comp adjusts natural endorphins, releases drugs in as needed micro bursts. Monitors heart rate. Monitors stress and anxiety.

The CKs trick stops a well balanced weapon from being well balanced. It could easily stop a Bio-Comp from releasing adrenaline at the right moment. Of not releasing enough dopamine, or shooting in too much opioid painkiller.

To a CK that Bio-Comp data might as well be a giant neon sign that tells him what the Juicer is going to do.

"Adrenaline spike." - "The Juicer is about to attack."
"Increase blood oxygen saturation." - "He's getting tired."
"Release pentazamin." - "He's going to shoot a gun."

Nope, sorry, totally not buying it. It requires a completely implausible line of argument to reach that conclusion. If you yanked that bio-comp out of the Juicer or otherwise disabled it he'd still have all those bonuses because they're the result of the drugs NOT the bio-comp. There is literally nothing that could make it plausible for the Cyber-Knight's anti-tech abilities to cancel out or otherwise interfere with the bonuses/abilities of the Juicer or give them any sort of advantage because there's a computer making sure he's got the right levels of the various drugs in his system. Your suggestions there for example require the anti-tech training to explicit include an intimate awareness of BIOLOGICAL factors, things very much NOT an aspect of technology. There is simply no way for their anti-tech training to reasonably work against a Juicer unless he has some actual tech like a vibro-knife or energy pistol in hand, a bare-bones Juicer using a rock would at a minimum give a Cyber-Knight a hard time if not whip him handily.

[HWalsh]

If you yanked that bio-comp out of the Juicer or otherwise disabled it he'd still have all those bonuses because they're the result of the drugs NOT the bio-comp.

Okay, please show me a citation stating that a Juicer is a Juicer without the Bio-Comp.

See, because I will use book citations.

RUE pg. 80 - The first step to detoxing is to remove the bio-comp and destroy the drug harness. This section goes on to state that without the drugs, the bio-comp still ramps up the juicer enough to kill him/her.

RUE pg. 78 - The first step to becoming a Juicer is to install a bio-comp. Five paragraphs from the top if one is counting the flavor blurb. It even goes on to explain how the bio-comp works by providing minute-to-minute drug doses as needed. Without the bio-comp the Juicer isn't a Juicer as nothing properly regulates the drugs. Juicers don't get the Super Soldier Serum Nightmask. They get a very complex computer that injects drugs every second of the day. Without the Bio-Comp the drugs don't work. Not only is it drugs, it regulates natural endorphin levels as well.

I quote:
"If the body is feeling fatigued, a dose of super EPO synthetic hormone is injected to increase oxygen flow into the blood, which decreases fatigue and increases physical performance by an amazing 16 to 21 percent!"

This is all explaining what the Bio-Comp does. No Bio-Comp, no drugs, no drugs, no Juicer.

The drugs don't make a Juicer. The Bio-Comp controlling the release of drugs make a Juicer.

-----

So let me explains what happens if the Bio-Comp goes offline.

All drugs are cut off. No drugs. The system completely stops working. This isn't like a constant chemical cocktail. They explain, in-depth, how important that Bio-Comp is to making things work.

So, yeah, since it is all implants... They'd have a hard time with Cyber-Knights in a hand to hand fight because, like it or not, they are tech. Tech does everything. From the thousands of small implants, to the Bio-Comp chips that control everything.

[dreicunan]

@HWalsh: I agree on the book-keeping issue. That's why I would use the same rule as the Juicer has for coming out of a zoned-out state: Halve the combat bonuses. I wouldn't reduce their SDC or PP, PE, Str, etc., because that would indeed be a pain to track. Personally, as some may recall, I also think that the physical transformation is something that would not disappear overnight even, so that is another reason that I would leave the stats themselves alone and instead halve the bonuses. Alao, that was a very good breakdown of why Juicers would be affected.

Crazies are tougher to parse out as to what is the exact source of an ability, specifically as to whether the abilities are dependent upon active stimulation each and every moment to maintain them the way a Juicer is on the biocomp. That said, I would probably rule that at the least the knight gets his bonuses to strike and parry and the crazy suffers the dodge penalty and loss of attacks, and I'd also rule that they lose the autodoge while engaged in combat with the knight as well.

[HWalsh]

@HWalsh: I agree on the book-keeping issue. That's why I would use the same rule as the Juicer has for coming out of a zoned-out state: Halve the combat bonuses. I wouldn't reduce their SDC or PP, PE, Str, etc., because that would indeed be a pain to track. Personally, as some may recall, I also think that the physical transformation is something that would not disappear overnight even, so that is another reason that I would leave the stats themselves alone and instead halve the bonuses. Alao, that was a very good breakdown of why Juicers would be affected.

Crazies are tougher to parse out as to what is the exact source of an ability, specifically as to whether the abilities are dependent upon active stimulation each and every moment to maintain them the way a Juicer is on the biocomp. That said, I would probably rule that at the least the knight gets his bonuses to strike and parry and the crazy suffers the dodge penalty and loss of attacks, and I'd also rule that they lose the autodoge while engaged in combat with the knight as well.

All I'd rule is that the Crazy and Juicer get the negatives to strike etc and the CK gets bonuses to strike/parry. They would lose 2 attacks per round (or 1 if the CK is lvl trying to keep up with the CKs agility and odd ability to predict what they were going to do.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you yanked that bio-comp out of the Juicer or otherwise disabled it he'd still have all those bonuses because they're the result of the drugs NOT the bio-comp.

Okay, please show me a citation stating that a Juicer is a Juicer without the Bio-Comp.

There actually IS one, although I'm away from my books right now and can't look it up.
IIRC, there is a canon statement to the effect that if a Juicer's drug supply runs out, the Juicer's own body continues producing the augmenting chemicals.
It's definitely pre-RUE, perhaps in CB1, possibly even SB1.

I'll try to find it tonight or over the weekend, if I get a chance, and if nobody else has found it.

Edit:
It's also possible that I'm mis-remembering the RUE passage you found about the bio-comp still working even without drugs.

[Killer Cyborg]

The problem is that all of you are presuming the horrificly terrible...reimagining...of the Cyber-Knight needs to exist in your games. Its the Jar-Jar Binks of class "updates" back when that was a thing. Go grab a copy of the original Rifts book; it has the real Cyber-Knight class.

Amen!

(I'd call it the "Highlander 2" of class updates, though, because it not only sucks in its own right, but undermined the very nature of the original)

[Killer Cyborg]

I wouldn't think that a Juicer/Crazy would lose their stat bonuses. I would just think the strike/parry/init bonuses/penalties listed on RUE 65/66 would kick in.

Like the CK could use his/her auto dodge and such.

I never considered things like stripping out the Juicer/Crazy powers

Good. We're on close to the same page on that, then.

With those CK abilities, look at what they do:
1. Negate any bonuses provided by the weapon/machine.
The only bonuses provided by the implants are the kind that I described, and I think we agree that those stay.

2. +3 init against attacks from modern guns and machines. Also, +3 to strike and parry.
The implants do not attack, so they would not trigger these bonuses. An attack from a Juicer/Crazy is not an "attack from a machine."

3. The Ck's gun-toting or tech-laden opponent is -3 to dodge the CK's attacks, and loses 2 melee attacks due to time spent compensating for the CK's amazing agility, combat skills, and awareness.
THIS one is the one that I think might be applied, if anybody/everybody with cybernetics/bionics is considered to be a "tech-laden opponent."
Which is why I asked about people with pacemakers. I could see an argument for them being similarly "tech-laden."

I could see the CK getting the Strike/Parry bonus.

I could see it, but I lean the other way for now because of the context of being right there next to the init bonus vs. attacks from machines.

As that doesn't specify guns and it makes no sense to get a strike bonus against someone because they're holding a gun, but not one if they have an implant.

I don't think the powers make a whole lot of sense in any case.

I think the dodge and attack per round penalty would apply because it's generated from the CKs agility and skill augmented by awareness which they would have regarding the implant.

I tend to agree. As described, this would seem to still work against people who are "tech-laden" with implants or armor, but who aren't using tech as a direct offense.

[Killer Cyborg]

So the cyber knights power would work against a club if some one attached a pin wheel to the end for looks?

Since the books already explicitly covered this...

The books explicitly covered clubs with pinwheels on the end...?

...no.

Okay.
Why not?

[Nightmask]

If you yanked that bio-comp out of the Juicer or otherwise disabled it he'd still have all those bonuses because they're the result of the drugs NOT the bio-comp.

Okay, please show me a citation stating that a Juicer is a Juicer without the Bio-Comp.

See, because I will use book citations.

RUE pg. 80 - The first step to detoxing is to remove the bio-comp and destroy the drug harness. This section goes on to state that without the drugs, the bio-comp still ramps up the juicer enough to kill him/her.

RUE pg. 78 - The first step to becoming a Juicer is to install a bio-comp. Five paragraphs from the top if one is counting the flavor blurb. It even goes on to explain how the bio-comp works by providing minute-to-minute drug doses as needed. Without the bio-comp the Juicer isn't a Juicer as nothing properly regulates the drugs. Juicers don't get the Super Soldier Serum Nightmask. They get a very complex computer that injects drugs every second of the day. Without the Bio-Comp the drugs don't work. Not only is it drugs, it regulates natural endorphin levels as well.

I quote:
"If the body is feeling fatigued, a dose of super EPO synthetic hormone is injected to increase oxygen flow into the blood, which decreases fatigue and increases physical performance by an amazing 16 to 21 percent!"

This is all explaining what the Bio-Comp does. No Bio-Comp, no drugs, no drugs, no Juicer.

The drugs don't make a Juicer. The Bio-Comp controlling the release of drugs make a Juicer.

-----

So let me explains what happens if the Bio-Comp goes offline.

All drugs are cut off. No drugs. The system completely stops working. This isn't like a constant chemical cocktail. They explain, in-depth, how important that Bio-Comp is to making things work.

So, yeah, since it is all implants... They'd have a hard time with Cyber-Knights in a hand to hand fight because, like it or not, they are tech. Tech does everything. From the thousands of small implants, to the Bio-Comp chips that control everything.

So where did you get the idea that somehow if the Bio-Comp stops working then the drugs permeating the person's body IMMEDIATELY stop working? That the drug cocktail that fills them instantly ceases to exist and all their benefits go away if the Bio-Comp fails for some reason. Nowhere in any book do you see it written that the influence of drugs ever vanish like that because they don't. For that matter where do you get the ridiculous idea that the DRUGS (the reason that they're CALLED Juicers) aren't what make the juicer? The drugs that are the most crucial and most required thing for the Juicer because without the drugs they can't BE Juicers? I just can't begin to express how unbelievable it is to hear someone say that the drugs mean nothing and it's the bio-comp that makes them a Juicer.

You're putting WAY too much effort into trying to defend an idea you have to know just isn't valid. You also quite ignored the rest of what I said, since you can't refute the point that the drugs are where all a Juicers bonuses come from, none of them come from the Bio-Comp. Nor can you refute that the anti-tech abilities of a Cyber-Knight can't possibly work against a Juicer because all the examples you give require the ant-tech training to have explicitly biological/physiological awareness that is completely unrelated to technology. There's no way for example the anti-tech power is going to be reading the Bio-Comp increasing Adrenalin levels because machines don't have Adrenalin levels, nor can it even remotely detect those most definitely biological abilities and bonuses that spring from those drugs because they aren't technological. Trying to do so you might as well give the Cyber-Knight its anti-tech bonuses against everyone and everything it meets if you're going to argue their anti-tech training includes completely unrelated anti-biological training.

[HWalsh]

If you yanked that bio-comp out of the Juicer or otherwise disabled it he'd still have all those bonuses because they're the result of the drugs NOT the bio-comp.

Okay, please show me a citation stating that a Juicer is a Juicer without the Bio-Comp.

See, because I will use book citations.

RUE pg. 80 - The first step to detoxing is to remove the bio-comp and destroy the drug harness. This section goes on to state that without the drugs, the bio-comp still ramps up the juicer enough to kill him/her.

RUE pg. 78 - The first step to becoming a Juicer is to install a bio-comp. Five paragraphs from the top if one is counting the flavor blurb. It even goes on to explain how the bio-comp works by providing minute-to-minute drug doses as needed. Without the bio-comp the Juicer isn't a Juicer as nothing properly regulates the drugs. Juicers don't get the Super Soldier Serum Nightmask. They get a very complex computer that injects drugs every second of the day. Without the Bio-Comp the drugs don't work. Not only is it drugs, it regulates natural endorphin levels as well.

I quote:
"If the body is feeling fatigued, a dose of super EPO synthetic hormone is injected to increase oxygen flow into the blood, which decreases fatigue and increases physical performance by an amazing 16 to 21 percent!"

This is all explaining what the Bio-Comp does. No Bio-Comp, no drugs, no drugs, no Juicer.

The drugs don't make a Juicer. The Bio-Comp controlling the release of drugs make a Juicer.

-----

So let me explains what happens if the Bio-Comp goes offline.

All drugs are cut off. No drugs. The system completely stops working. This isn't like a constant chemical cocktail. They explain, in-depth, how important that Bio-Comp is to making things work.

So, yeah, since it is all implants... They'd have a hard time with Cyber-Knights in a hand to hand fight because, like it or not, they are tech. Tech does everything. From the thousands of small implants, to the Bio-Comp chips that control everything.

So where did you get the idea that somehow if the Bio-Comp stops working then the drugs permeating the person's body IMMEDIATELY stop working? That the drug cocktail that fills them instantly ceases to exist and all their benefits go away if the Bio-Comp fails for some reason. Nowhere in any book do you see it written that the influence of drugs ever vanish like that because they don't. For that matter where do you get the ridiculous idea that the DRUGS (the reason that they're CALLED Juicers) aren't what make the juicer? The drugs that are the most crucial and most required thing for the Juicer because without the drugs they can't BE Juicers? I just can't begin to express how unbelievable it is to hear someone say that the drugs mean nothing and it's the bio-comp that makes them a Juicer.

You're putting WAY too much effort into trying to defend an idea you have to know just isn't valid. You also quite ignored the rest of what I said, since you can't refute the point that the drugs are where all a Juicers bonuses come from, none of them come from the Bio-Comp. Nor can you refute that the anti-tech abilities of a Cyber-Knight can't possibly work against a Juicer because all the examples you give require the ant-tech training to have explicitly biological/physiological awareness that is completely unrelated to technology. There's no way for example the anti-tech power is going to be reading the Bio-Comp increasing Adrenalin levels because machines don't have Adrenalin levels, nor can it even remotely detect those most definitely biological abilities and bonuses that spring from those drugs because they aren't technological. Trying to do so you might as well give the Cyber-Knight its anti-tech bonuses against everyone and everything it meets if you're going to argue their anti-tech training includes completely unrelated anti-biological training.

Under your logic the CK wouldn't work against EBA and it explicitly does. The EBA doesn't do ANYTHING on the level of the Bio-Comp. Also, holy heck Nightmask read the Juicer. They mention the bio comp and implants more than they bring up the drugs.

You're acting like the bio comp just sits there. This is NOT one specific drug. The book explicitly explains the bio comp constantly adjusts and alters EVERYTHING so the first time a Juicer needs an adrenaline burst, no bio comp, no burst. They need a hormone? No bio comp no hormone. They tear a muscle moving too quickly because something didn't release a counteracting agent for the amphetamine that enhances reaction? Tough luck now the Juicer's ripping it's body apart.

The bio comp is so important they explicitly install two of them just in case something goes wrong.

[Saitou Hajime]

PG 65-The Knight is aware of and able to react to all mechanical devices and weapons used by that particular oppenent, including guns, vibro blades, neural mace, EBA, PA Cyber.bionics weapons and systems computers, optics systems, sensorss, robots, vehicles and other devices. Basically any machine with moving parts.

I would type this as mvoing part and somekind of power [chemical, electric, light, magic and/or etc. if you hit them with numchaku or a morning star it shouldn't count, I am iffy on bows and crossbows with normals heads as well.

I wouldn't think that a Juicer/Crazy would lose their stat bonuses. I would just think the strike/parry/init bonuses/penalties listed on RUE 65/66 would kick in.

Like the CK could use his/her auto dodge and such.

I never considered things like stripping out the Juicer/Crazy powers

Good. We're on close to the same page on that, then.

With those CK abilities, look at what they do:
1. Negate any bonuses provided by the weapon/machine.
The only bonuses provided by the implants are the kind that I described, and I think we agree that those stay.

2. +3 init against attacks from modern guns and machines. Also, +3 to strike and parry.
The implants do not attack, so they would not trigger these bonuses. An attack from a Juicer/Crazy is not an "attack from a machine."

3. The Ck's gun-toting or tech-laden opponent is -3 to dodge the CK's attacks, and loses 2 melee attacks due to time spent compensating for the CK's amazing agility, combat skills, and awareness.
THIS one is the one that I think might be applied, if anybody/everybody with cybernetics/bionics is considered to be a "tech-laden opponent."
Which is why I asked about people with pacemakers. I could see an argument for them being similarly "tech-laden."

Borrowing KC quote, my take is that a crazy or Jucier armed with a combat knife or other non-tech Meleed weapon would suffer from the penalties applied by item three. I wouldn't cound something complete passive like a cybernetic liver or the like as counting. to me it would have to have a combat fuction. further while modern armour would count [as it normally has sensors and the like] i not sure I would count simple armour like maile, granted i might be convinced other wise at a later point on that.

[Blue_Lion]

PG 65-The Knight is aware of and able to react to all mechanical devices and weapons used by that particular oppenent, including guns, vibro blades, neural mace, EBA, PA Cyber.bionics weapons and systems computers, optics systems, sensorss, robots, vehicles and other devices. Basically any machine with moving parts.

I would type this as mvoing part and somekind of power [chemical, electric, light, magic and/or etc. if you hit them with numchaku or a morning star it shouldn't count, I am iffy on bows and crossbows with normals heads as well.

I wouldn't think that a Juicer/Crazy would lose their stat bonuses. I would just think the strike/parry/init bonuses/penalties listed on RUE 65/66 would kick in.

Like the CK could use his/her auto dodge and such.

I never considered things like stripping out the Juicer/Crazy powers

Good. We're on close to the same page on that, then.

With those CK abilities, look at what they do:
1. Negate any bonuses provided by the weapon/machine.
The only bonuses provided by the implants are the kind that I described, and I think we agree that those stay.

2. +3 init against attacks from modern guns and machines. Also, +3 to strike and parry.
The implants do not attack, so they would not trigger these bonuses. An attack from a Juicer/Crazy is not an "attack from a machine."

3. The Ck's gun-toting or tech-laden opponent is -3 to dodge the CK's attacks, and loses 2 melee attacks due to time spent compensating for the CK's amazing agility, combat skills, and awareness.
THIS one is the one that I think might be applied, if anybody/everybody with cybernetics/bionics is considered to be a "tech-laden opponent."
Which is why I asked about people with pacemakers. I could see an argument for them being similarly "tech-laden."

Borrowing KC quote, my take is that a crazy or Jucier armed with a combat knife or other non-tech Meleed weapon would suffer from the penalties applied by item three. I wouldn't cound something complete passive like a cybernetic liver or the like as counting. to me it would have to have a combat fuction. further while modern armour would count [as it normally has sensors and the like] i not sure I would count simple armour like maile, granted i might be convinced other wise at a later point on that.

Sigh 3 does not apply to hand held melee weapons at all. It says so I even quoted it, a V-blade does not get the penalty when used as a hand held weapon neither do bow and arrows even tech arrows. 3 seams to be about when the tech is used to launch or guide the attack. So weather or not the hand held melee weapon is tech based has no bearing on 3. A gargoyle with a juicer chain saw does not trigger 3.

[Blue_Lion]

So the cyber knights power would work against a club if some one attached a pin wheel to the end for looks?

Since the books already explicitly covered this...

The books explicitly covered clubs with pinwheels on the end...?

...no.

Okay.
Why not?

My take on this in that case eliakon was giving a gut reaction as something RAW covers. I see nothing in the book that mentions anything close to a club with a pinwheel on the end explicitly.

The why not seams more because he said so.
The penalty does not apply because it is hand held weapon same as it does not apply to vibro blades.(some people here are assuming other wise but page think it was 166 makes hand held weapons immune to the penalty.) So then it comes down to can the CK read the movement of the club for the bonus to dodge based on the spinning of the pin wheel. If he can read movements from a suit of armor or scope can he also do so from a spinning wheel. This thread is about exploring the affects of CK powers so this while may seam adsorb is something under the premises what do they work against.

[Saitou Hajime]

PG 65-The Knight is aware of and able to react to all mechanical devices and weapons used by that particular oppenent, including guns, vibro blades, neural mace, EBA, PA Cyber.bionics weapons and systems computers, optics systems, sensorss, robots, vehicles and other devices. Basically any machine with moving parts.

I would type this as mvoing part and somekind of power [chemical, electric, light, magic and/or etc. if you hit them with numchaku or a morning star it shouldn't count, I am iffy on bows and crossbows with normals heads as well.

I wouldn't think that a Juicer/Crazy would lose their stat bonuses. I would just think the strike/parry/init bonuses/penalties listed on RUE 65/66 would kick in.

Like the CK could use his/her auto dodge and such.

I never considered things like stripping out the Juicer/Crazy powers

Good. We're on close to the same page on that, then.

With those CK abilities, look at what they do:
1. Negate any bonuses provided by the weapon/machine.
The only bonuses provided by the implants are the kind that I described, and I think we agree that those stay.

2. +3 init against attacks from modern guns and machines. Also, +3 to strike and parry.
The implants do not attack, so they would not trigger these bonuses. An attack from a Juicer/Crazy is not an "attack from a machine."

3. The Ck's gun-toting or tech-laden opponent is -3 to dodge the CK's attacks, and loses 2 melee attacks due to time spent compensating for the CK's amazing agility, combat skills, and awareness.
THIS one is the one that I think might be applied, if anybody/everybody with cybernetics/bionics is considered to be a "tech-laden opponent."
Which is why I asked about people with pacemakers. I could see an argument for them being similarly "tech-laden."

Borrowing KC quote, my take is that a crazy or Jucier armed with a combat knife or other non-tech Meleed weapon would suffer from the penalties applied by item three. I wouldn't cound something complete passive like a cybernetic liver or the like as counting. to me it would have to have a combat fuction. further while modern armour would count [as it normally has sensors and the like] i not sure I would count simple armour like maile, granted i might be convinced other wise at a later point on that.

Sigh 3 does not apply to hand held melee weapons at all. It says so I even quoted it, a V-blade does not get the penalty when used as a hand held weapon neither do bow and arrows even tech arrows. 3 seams to be about when the tech is used to launch or guide the attack. So weather or not the hand held melee weapon is tech based has no bearing on 3. A gargoyle with a juicer chain saw does not trigger 3.

I quoted you to respond to what youe quoted, I quoted KC because I wanted to talk about Item 3, these are not linked statements, I didn't want to double post. Also what I quoted from you quoting PG 65 says the reverse of what you said in your responce to me [whether or not these two quotes are related] your responce confuses me.

[Blue_Lion]

PG 65-The Knight is aware of and able to react to all mechanical devices and weapons used by that particular oppenent, including guns, vibro blades, neural mace, EBA, PA Cyber.bionics weapons and systems computers, optics systems, sensorss, robots, vehicles and other devices. Basically any machine with moving parts.

I would type this as mvoing part and somekind of power [chemical, electric, light, magic and/or etc. if you hit them with numchaku or a morning star it shouldn't count, I am iffy on bows and crossbows with normals heads as well.

I wouldn't think that a Juicer/Crazy would lose their stat bonuses. I would just think the strike/parry/init bonuses/penalties listed on RUE 65/66 would kick in.

Like the CK could use his/her auto dodge and such.

I never considered things like stripping out the Juicer/Crazy powers

Good. We're on close to the same page on that, then.

With those CK abilities, look at what they do:
1. Negate any bonuses provided by the weapon/machine.
The only bonuses provided by the implants are the kind that I described, and I think we agree that those stay.

2. +3 init against attacks from modern guns and machines. Also, +3 to strike and parry.
The implants do not attack, so they would not trigger these bonuses. An attack from a Juicer/Crazy is not an "attack from a machine."

3. The Ck's gun-toting or tech-laden opponent is -3 to dodge the CK's attacks, and loses 2 melee attacks due to time spent compensating for the CK's amazing agility, combat skills, and awareness.
THIS one is the one that I think might be applied, if anybody/everybody with cybernetics/bionics is considered to be a "tech-laden opponent."
Which is why I asked about people with pacemakers. I could see an argument for them being similarly "tech-laden."

Borrowing KC quote, my take is that a crazy or Jucier armed with a combat knife or other non-tech Meleed weapon would suffer from the penalties applied by item three. I wouldn't cound something complete passive like a cybernetic liver or the like as counting. to me it would have to have a combat fuction. further while modern armour would count [as it normally has sensors and the like] i not sure I would count simple armour like maile, granted i might be convinced other wise at a later point on that.

Sigh 3 does not apply to hand held melee weapons at all. It says so I even quoted it, a V-blade does not get the penalty when used as a hand held weapon neither do bow and arrows even tech arrows. 3 seams to be about when the tech is used to launch or guide the attack. So weather or not the hand held melee weapon is tech based has no bearing on 3. A gargoyle with a juicer chain saw does not trigger 3.

I quoted you to respond to what youe quoted, I quoted KC because I wanted to talk about Item 3, these are not linked statements, I didn't want to double post. Also what I quoted from you quoting PG 65 says the reverse of what you said in your responce to me [whether or not these two quotes are related] your responce confuses me.

My point was the type of melee weapon is irreverent to weather or not a juicer get the penalty. Even the original poster claims the CK powers work fully with v-blades but they do not. I just tired of seeing people presenting it as the type of melee weapon as making any difference.

In-fact looking at what the -2 applies to-power armor, robots, combat vehicles, cyborg systems, all energy weapons and any weapon utilizing sensors or optics systems as well as tw guns and other tw machines. Now then while a juicers implant they are cyber ware they are generally not a cyborg systems so the -2 would not apply for that. In addition it says the penalty does not apply to hand held weapons such as v blades so the penalty of -2 does not apply to the juicer at all in melee combat as there is no non organic optical or mechanical assistance to the attack.

Now then looking at the bonus to initiative, the machine is not launching an attack it just pumping drugs. so yea he might know the juicer is getting pumped up with pain killers Adrenalin and steroids to fight but will that translate into reading what is organic muscles are doing?

Now then what bonus comes straight from a weapon or machine for a juicer so they can be negated? I was under the impresion that most the bonuses are from drugs and hormones. That the juicer is on most of the time but combat triggers a higher level. The bonuses to me are from chemical augmention of organics not mechnical or electronic augmention. (It might be like saying the cyber knight reduces bonuses to save from getting sick if you have a artificial heart or kidney.)