Macross Era Issues

[Phaze]

I am having a difficult time with designing a campaign in the Macross Era. The difference in strengths of the forces are tough to make it workable when you get down to the core Human side.

Say I want a squad of grunts in the UEDF as player characters. Since this is in an era with SDC materials and few MDC body armor and weapons available unless you are in a mecha, what could I throw at them from a war standpoint on the streets of Macross? Full size Zentradi are MDC and a squad of grunts would have no hope of defeating even one Zentradi. I hope to eventually bring these grunts into the later parts of the war where MDC armor and weapons were more available, but I wanted to start where it all began...or maybe a bit earlier during the Global War.

Some ideas i had was to bring some modern tech into the fold. Design Zentradi disposable search drones that are like our versions of the tiny quad copters. To the grunts they would be able to be destroyed without MDC weapons and could pose a threat. To the Zentradi they would be a logical tool to find Micronians. Another idea was to use Micronized Zentradi Infiltration Squads, like they did for the infiltration of the SDF-1. They would use whatever weapons and armor they could get from the UEDF. I want to create a more gritty modernized feel to my game and to the Zentradi, rather than the enormous, sluggish, and sometimes tactically silly Zentradi as they are portrayed in the cartoon series.

Any other ideas?

[guardiandashi]

I am having a difficult time with designing a campaign in the Macross Era. The difference in strengths of the forces are tough to make it workable when you get down to the core Human side.

Say I want a squad of grunts in the UEDF as player characters. Since this is in an era with SDC materials and few MDC body armor and weapons available unless you are in a mecha, what could I throw at them from a war standpoint on the streets of Macross? Full size Zentradi are MDC and a squad of grunts would have no hope of defeating even one Zentradi. I hope to eventually bring these grunts into the later parts of the war where MDC armor and weapons were more available, but I wanted to start where it all began...or maybe a bit earlier during the Global War.

Some ideas i had was to bring some modern tech into the fold. Design Zentradi disposable search drones that are like our versions of the tiny quad copters. To the grunts they would be able to be destroyed without MDC weapons and could pose a threat. To the Zentradi they would be a logical tool to find Micronians. Another idea was to use Micronized Zentradi Infiltration Squads, like they did for the infiltration of the SDF-1. They would use whatever weapons and armor they could get from the UEDF. I want to create a more gritty modernized feel to my game and to the Zentradi, rather than the enormous, sluggish, and sometimes tactically silly Zentradi as they are portrayed in the cartoon series.

Any other ideas?

actually Zentradi aren't megadamage per say they can take MDC because they have so much sdc and hit points but even sdc weapons can hurt them.
if they are wearing body armor it typically would be MDC but a few support weapons in the squad like RPG's bazooka's law rockets and the like could deal with that.

heck I am sure you could include some recoilless rifle rounds and the like that would do low MDC 1d4ish per hit for example to deal with any mdc body armor.

its only the battle pods, power armor and the like that would squash your infantry squad like a grape, and they should be engaged by veritechs/destroids anyway.

[Seto Kaiba]

I am having a difficult time with designing a campaign in the Macross Era. The difference in strengths of the forces are tough to make it workable when you get down to the core Human side.

Say I want a squad of grunts in the UEDF as player characters. Since this is in an era with SDC materials and few MDC body armor and weapons available unless you are in a mecha, what could I throw at them from a war standpoint on the streets of Macross? Full size Zentradi are MDC and a squad of grunts would have no hope of defeating even one Zentradi.

Actually, it's not at all unworkable... thanks to the inclusion of Mega-Damage ammunition for practically every conventional firearm despite no such thing existing in the series, and the completely arbitrary damage values that make those small arms as powerful as many mecha-mounted weapons, a squad of infantry could easily chip their way through Zentradi light or heavy combat armor in the space of a melee or two with sustained bursts of fire. The light armor only has 70 MDC and the heavy 118 MDC. With LEAP ammo, machine guns can do anywhere from an average of about 16 MD per burst to over 70 MD+ per burst, with potentially enough power that they could one-shot their way through even the heavy armor at a whopping 120 MD per burst and kill the Zentradi soldier on the next shot.

(Now if you're running your game closer to canon, without the inexplicable MD ammo, then yeah... you're hosed.)

I want to create a more gritty modernized feel to my game and to the Zentradi, rather than the enormous, sluggish, and sometimes tactically silly Zentradi as they are portrayed in the cartoon series.

Sluggish? Silly? The Zentradi were never portrayed as sluggish in the show... they were shown, if anything, as being every bit as quick and agile as a human despite being 125 times the size. There are a few occasions where they move slowly because they're acting with great care to not squish a miclone, but that's not representative of their true abilities the way their combat performance is.

As for the silly... well... that, again, is them being hampered by orders not to use lethal force against the SDF-1 Macross for most of the series. The reason differs between RT and the original, but the fact that they were "fighting" with their hands tied is the same in both. The minute the gloves come off, it's immediately apparent that they are superlative killers and are big believers in "There's no kill like overkill".

[tobefrnk]

You could look at framing what the successful goals of your players are. The players could focus on rescue of civilians using tactics that are meant to successfully slow down, distract, or misdirect the Zentraedi movement in the city. I'm thinking of sequences more akin to the movie Battle: Los Angeles. I also agree that rocket launchers and the like could put some hurt on Zentraedi foot soldiers.

[Phaze]

(Now if you're running your game closer to canon, without the inexplicable MD ammo, then yeah... you're hosed.)

I want to create a more gritty modernized feel to my game and to the Zentradi, rather than the enormous, sluggish, and sometimes tactically silly Zentradi as they are portrayed in the cartoon series.

Sluggish? Silly? The Zentradi were never portrayed as sluggish in the show... they were shown, if anything, as being every bit as quick and agile as a human despite being 125 times the size. There are a few occasions where they move slowly because they're acting with great care to not squish a miclone, but that's not representative of their true abilities the way their combat performance is.

As for the silly... well... that, again, is them being hampered by orders not to use lethal force against the SDF-1 Macross for most of the series. The reason differs between RT and the original, but the fact that they were "fighting" with their hands tied is the same in both. The minute the gloves come off, it's immediately apparent that they are superlative killers and are big believers in "There's no kill like overkill".

Its a cartoon series, I get it. Their personal combat tactics were like two six year olds duking it out on the playground. Their combat maneuvers were to swarm and overwhelm the enemy. I want to create warriors out of them in my game. They are cloned to be fighters and should have some sense of tactics that goes beyond just overwhelming by numbers. They miss more than Imperial Stormtroopers.

You could look at framing what the successful goals of your players are. The players could focus on rescue of civilians using tactics that are meant to successfully slow down, distract, or misdirect the Zentraedi movement in the city. I'm thinking of sequences more akin to the movie Battle: Los Angeles. I also agree that rocket launchers and the like could put some hurt on Zentraedi foot soldiers.

BINGO... but I want them to have some low and mid range encounters before a giant shows up to stomp on the grapes. That's my issue. Rescue operation is exactly what I had in mind but beyond the civilian panic routine, dealing with irrational and panicked people, what low and mid level combat encounters do I have available? Hence my quandary.

[tobefrnk]

Well, it is the big advertised debut day of the SDF-1 and all its tech. Perhaps there are some anti-unification cell remnants that managed to get to the island and had their own plans for that day. Now they're using the chaos to their advantage.

I don't see micronized Zentraedi being an option as the idea that there are micronians on Earth was a surprise.

The drone idea of yours is something. After all, something had to capture the footage of the micronians that Bretai and Exedore react to. Sure, it could have been gun camera footage, but drones would satisfy what you want. I'm just not sure if they would be SDC though as MDC manufacture is extremely common and "easy" for the Masters. Maybe light MDC so rocket launchers can still be a thing of practical use.

[Seto Kaiba]

Their personal combat tactics were like two six year olds duking it out on the playground. Their combat maneuvers were to swarm and overwhelm the enemy. I want to create warriors out of them in my game. They are cloned to be fighters and should have some sense of tactics that goes beyond just overwhelming by numbers. They miss more than Imperial Stormtroopers.

You missed my point... for the vast majority of the original Macross series (Robotech's Macross Saga), the Zentradi don't really display their abilities to the fullest because they're operating under the constraint of "leave the Macross intact". They are, for all practical purposes, deliberately pulling their punches to an almost comical extent. On the few occasions they wade in in earnest, they quickly overpower the Macross's defenders and the ship is only saved by coincidences like the attackers being forcibly recalled or being shocked into withdrawing by their troops defecting en masse. Britai takes out an entire platoon of VFs single-handed and bare-handed to boot without breaking a sweat. They're excellent soldiers, it's just - like the Stormtroopers in Star Wars - they're deliberately giving a poor showing of their abilities because they've been ordered to take a high-value target intact.

(Also, they're not exactly infantry... their whole combat organization is based around mecha. Resorting to fisticuffs isn't something they would normally have to do.)

The drone idea of yours is something. After all, something had to capture the footage of the micronians that Bretai and Exedore react to. Sure, it could have been gun camera footage, but drones would satisfy what you want. I'm just not sure if they would be SDC though as MDC manufacture is extremely common and "easy" for the Masters. Maybe light MDC so rocket launchers can still be a thing of practical use.

Officially, that was gun camera footage from a Regult... complete with the distinctive hopping motion they employ in battle.

WRT the durability of prospective Zentradi spy drones... probably MDC. The RPG makes virtually everything they have MDC.

[ShadowLogan]

@Phaze
Which edition are we talking about here? First or Second Edition.

Second Edition as Seto mentioned should not be an issue what with SLAP/HEAP rounds available to most man-portable weapons even in the Macross Era.

First Edition, which is what it sounds like you operating under, is of course another issue entirely. Here you might want to consider issuing the Wolverine Assault Rifle, Weasel Pistol, or Badger Submachinegun early. The heavy laser rifle backpack would also do the trick, so would a 90mm Recoilless Rifle. Surviving hits, is another matter of course.

I suppose you could give them some type of early power armor (in 2E the ASC's Unicorn PA was first fielded in 2013, so you could give them a precursor model), but that would require doing some creation on your end. Importing from Rifts, if available, the Ramjet rounds and/or early Chipwell stuff might also work.

I don't think there is much you can throw at them from the Zentreadi end that would be low/medium powered in this scenario since most Zentreadi attacks would likely push them into the high-end category relative to their abilities. The Zentreadi aren't known to use non-mechanized forces during the 1RW, those encounters all occur once humans are inside their ships. So it would be humans vs Battlepods, which even with their "low" MDC pack a wholp in return.

That said, actually being able to "defeat" a giant Zentreadi (even in Battlepods) should be possible, they might just have to take a different approach than what raw firepower they have on them personally. They might have to use tripwires and other traps, they could also lay mines/explosives, call in an air/artillery strike and maybe approach the situation like they would against an armored vehicle (like a tank).

As for what you can toss at them:
-"damaged" pods is an option (this means you don't have to deal with full MDC pods, and weapons can be disabled to bring them into that relative low/medium category)
-EVA pilots (like Rick encounters at end of Ep2)
-human criminals, guerrillas, alien sympaths, etc
-while micronized Zentreadi are highly unlikely IMHO, Robotech Master "advisers" (or another alien faction) might be viable to have been deployed, though they are going to have to be low key by nature. In Ep36 Gloval states: "even as we speak Captain the Robotech Forces are speeding back to their home world for reinforcements", it is possible Gloval is not referring to Khyron/Zentreadi, but another group we know nothing about given the name so it could be other aliens.
-drones are a possibility, though the only evidence the Zentreadi might have them is from their ability to reactivate Sara Base's computer and transmitter, and even here I suspect they'd be MDC for ease of handling by the giants

You might also want to float scenarios like this to the players and ask them how they see a unit of UEDF grunts handling battlepods/giants in the 2009-11 time frame. It might require you to reconsider how the campaign's encounters are structured if they can't or can workout how to deal with the situation.

[Zer0 Kay]

Could always have your PCs as part of a platoon and they end up being the only survivors. All pissed of at the UNS for not preparing them for what was coming. The only thing is if they were ground pounders they would more likely become Battloid pilots instead of VT pilots. If they want to be VT pilots it'd be better if they are either fighter pilots assigned to one of the carriers or started out as VT pilots since there were VT there.

[Arnie100]

Go watch Return of the Jedi for some inspiration on how to take down battlepods, LOL. Remember how the Ewoks would take out the AT-STs?

[Tiree]

you need a forest!

[Arnie100]

You can do something similar at a construction site. Instead of trees, steel girders, metal pipes and the like. Wonder what a wrecking ball can do against a battlepod...

[SRoss]

PC swings over on a cable and drapes an aluminum blanket over the battle pod's sensor eye.

[Arnie100]

PC swings over on a cable and drapes an aluminum blanket over the battle pod's sensor eye.

PC: (Still swinging on the cable, singing...) "I hit the Battlepod with a wrecking ball..."
PC's Teammates:
The Zentraedi stop and start humming along...
"Should we shoot him? We could always blame friendly fire."

[glitterboy2098]

you could also use CAS, artilery, etc as an option.

give the players laser designators, which they can use to call in artillery from Monster's, LRM strikes from Phalanx's, or airstrikes from fighters and VF's.

they just have to remember to call in a strike via radio before using the designators to spot for targets.

[Arnie100]

They could also use buildings for cover. Snipe at sensitive spots on the battlepods with anti-material rifles and use RPGs and the like, as well. Even use the sewer tunnels to lay down ambushes and for quick get-aways, especially if they are familiar with the city or have detailed maps.

[Zer0 Kay]

Go watch Return of the Jedi for some inspiration on how to take down battlepods, LOL. Remember how the Ewoks would take out the AT-STs?

Macross looked pretty barren plus if this is at the beginning there would be no prep time.

[Phaze]

@Phaze
Which edition are we talking about here? First or Second Edition.

Second Edition as Seto mentioned should not be an issue what with SLAP/HEAP rounds available to most man-portable weapons even in the Macross Era.

I'm using second edition.

I didn't think SLAP/HEAP rounds were available at the beginning of the war. If they are then I could easily solve the issue. But then comes the question of body armor. Grunts just didn't have MDC armor at the beginning.

you could also use CAS, artilery, etc as an option.

give the players laser designators, which they can use to call in artillery from Monster's, LRM strikes from Phalanx's, or airstrikes from fighters and VF's.

they just have to remember to call in a strike via radio before using the designators to spot for targets.

That is an awesome idea! I can work with that.

[ShadowLogan]

I'm using second edition.

I didn't think SLAP/HEAP rounds were available at the beginning of the war. If they are then I could easily solve the issue. But then comes the question of body armor. Grunts just didn't have MDC armor at the beginning.

I do not think they give an indication when the SLAP/HEAP rounds are introduced in miniaturized form, but we know the basic technology is in use (they are on the GU-11 and assorted other slug throwers). So their availability date is purely up to you, but it does appear they are available.

Body Armor, CHR-1 or a variation there of. The CHR-1 is available early on (we see it used early in the series on the SDF-1), but impairs mobility. The description would allow for it's use in infantry teams. If the mobility is an issue, you could create a variant optimized for mobility (reduce mass and protection though unless you modified them into something akin to Powered Armor in Rifts in which case they retain their stats, but lose/reduce the penalties).

Macross looked pretty barren plus if this is at the beginning there would be no prep time.

Assuming of course that the Island did not have prepared defences in place. And those prepared defences aren't taken out by the Zentreadi bombardment of the island when the ground forces moved to cross the island to the SDF-1.

The available time might cut into what they can employ, though I would think options exist. They can still plant mines and explosives after all, meaning they could topple a building on to a target (buried, hey it worked on Invid Shock Troopers in two different episodes), or blow the ground out from under them causing them to fall over (disabling them). Or string up strong cable to trip the Regults/giants (a snare might be pushing it given the mass involved).

The UEDF should have some contingencies even at this point (pre-contact) for their grunts to be useful as they would have no knowledge of how the giants would operate, so they could project on how they would do things, which means having tactics and strategies (and equipment) the average grunt could use to engage. Now as experience is acquired the role of grunts is likely to change.

[wyrmraker]

I'm going to have to disagree about the lack of preparation time for the Macross Island forces. In my mind, the UEG troops would be fully geared up and deployed throughout the city on the SDF-1's dedication voyage day, bearing that the anti-Unification groups are being treated as terror cells. The ceremony is just too big of a target *not* to be properly paranoid about. Add in the forethought of basically impregnable civilian bunkers that happen to be vacuum tight, and it's an easy conjecture to imagine that the UEG brass has been preparing for just about anything, be it bacteriological, chemical, radiological, or IED tactics.

Therefore (again to my mind) the powers that be would have troops stationed pretty much everywhere. Every land and sea approach would be scoured, every inch of land that wasn't Macross City would be covered in sensors, and there would be manned checkpoints everywhere. Ecven the sewers would be checked and rechecked. Since it's pretty much entirely a city under UEG military jurisdiction, it would be easy enough to do, as well as good PR for the pro-Unification factions.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm using second edition.

I didn't think SLAP/HEAP rounds were available at the beginning of the war. If they are then I could easily solve the issue. But then comes the question of body armor. Grunts just didn't have MDC armor at the beginning.

I do not think they give an indication when the SLAP/HEAP rounds are introduced in miniaturized form, but we know the basic technology is in use (they are on the GU-11 and assorted other slug throwers). So their availability date is purely up to you, but it does appear they are available.

Body Armor, CHR-1 or a variation there of. The CHR-1 is available early on (we see it used early in the series on the SDF-1), but impairs mobility. The description would allow for it's use in infantry teams. If the mobility is an issue, you could create a variant optimized for mobility (reduce mass and protection though unless you modified them into something akin to Powered Armor in Rifts in which case they retain their stats, but lose/reduce the penalties).

Macross looked pretty barren plus if this is at the beginning there would be no prep time.

Assuming of course that the Island did not have prepared defences in place. And those prepared defences aren't taken out by the Zentreadi bombardment of the island when the ground forces moved to cross the island to the SDF-1.

The available time might cut into what they can employ, though I would think options exist. They can still plant mines and explosives after all, meaning they could topple a building on to a target (buried, hey it worked on Invid Shock Troopers in two different episodes), or blow the ground out from under them causing them to fall over (disabling them). Or string up strong cable to trip the Regults/giants (a snare might be pushing it given the mass involved).

The UEDF should have some contingencies even at this point (pre-contact) for their grunts to be useful as they would have no knowledge of how the giants would operate, so they could project on how they would do things, which means having tactics and strategies (and equipment) the average grunt could use to engage. Now as experience is acquired the role of grunts is likely to change.

K I like that one using demolitions to create the traps. Not what I think when I think Ewoks. That's more like the anime "Heavy Object", or commando type operations.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm going to have to disagree about the lack of preparation time for the Macross Island forces. In my mind, the UEG troops would be fully geared up and deployed throughout the city on the SDF-1's dedication voyage day, bearing that the anti-Unification groups are being treated as terror cells. The ceremony is just too big of a target *not* to be properly paranoid about. Add in the forethought of basically impregnable civilian bunkers that happen to be vacuum tight, and it's an easy conjecture to imagine that the UEG brass has been preparing for just about anything, be it bacteriological, chemical, radiological, or IED tactics.

Therefore (again to my mind) the powers that be would have troops stationed pretty much everywhere. Every land and sea approach would be scoured, every inch of land that wasn't Macross City would be covered in sensors, and there would be manned checkpoints everywhere. Ecven the sewers would be checked and rechecked. Since it's pretty much entirely a city under UEG military jurisdiction, it would be easy enough to do, as well as good PR for the pro-Unification factions.

Still not enough time to set up Ewok type defenses. They would be prepped to defend against contemporary terrorist attacks. No building falls or MDC weapons.

[glitterboy2098]

I'm going to have to disagree about the lack of preparation time for the Macross Island forces. In my mind, the UEG troops would be fully geared up and deployed throughout the city on the SDF-1's dedication voyage day, bearing that the anti-Unification groups are being treated as terror cells. The ceremony is just too big of a target *not* to be properly paranoid about. Add in the forethought of basically impregnable civilian bunkers that happen to be vacuum tight, and it's an easy conjecture to imagine that the UEG brass has been preparing for just about anything, be it bacteriological, chemical, radiological, or IED tactics.

Therefore (again to my mind) the powers that be would have troops stationed pretty much everywhere. Every land and sea approach would be scoured, every inch of land that wasn't Macross City would be covered in sensors, and there would be manned checkpoints everywhere. Ecven the sewers would be checked and rechecked. Since it's pretty much entirely a city under UEG military jurisdiction, it would be easy enough to do, as well as good PR for the pro-Unification factions.

agreed, but the main thing is that those troops were prepared for the wrong sort of thing.. they'd be expecting AUL attacks. terrorism. kidnapping. attempts to smuggle nuclear weapons onto the island, etc.

instead they got aliens arriving out of the skies.

[taalismn]

Tanker trucks, especially those filled with flammable liquids, can be handy for ####ing over Zentraedi troops. Even if you don't get a satisfying explosion, the smoke and flames will still disorient and confuse the big guys for a few moments. Enough to put some other plan into action, or escape under cover of the smoke. This is a good time to put the stats for the Volatile Materials Tank Trailer to good use.
Just be sure you don't linger in the area when you set the neighborhood on fire.

[ShadowLogan]

K I like that one using demolitions to create the traps. Not what I think when I think Ewoks. That's more like the anime "Heavy Object", or commando type operations.

I agree it isn't necessarily Ewok-ish, but some of the same principles can apply. It really doesn't matter if you use building materials or logs, the end result can still potentially be the same. Even if the attacks aren't as potentially dangerous (Mythbusters smashed a hole in the sides of an armored car with the swinging log a few seasons back), they could still potentially work in other areas (force the enemy into more open, knock them off their feet ((which itself could potentially disable them), get a lucky "hit" in on a sensor/joint, etc). The main problem with any anti-giant defenses is that the UEDF at that point has no real idea how the giants operate on the battlefield.

I'm going to have to disagree about the lack of preparation time for the Macross Island forces. In my mind, the UEG troops would be fully geared up and deployed throughout the city on the SDF-1's dedication voyage day, bearing that the anti-Unification groups are being treated as terror cells. The ceremony is just too big of a target *not* to be properly paranoid about. Add in the forethought of basically impregnable civilian bunkers that happen to be vacuum tight, and it's an easy conjecture to imagine that the UEG brass has been preparing for just about anything, be it bacteriological, chemical, radiological, or IED tactics.

Therefore (again to my mind) the powers that be would have troops stationed pretty much everywhere. Every land and sea approach would be scoured, every inch of land that wasn't Macross City would be covered in sensors, and there would be manned checkpoints everywhere. Ecven the sewers would be checked and rechecked. Since it's pretty much entirely a city under UEG military jurisdiction, it would be easy enough to do, as well as good PR for the pro-Unification factions.

I do think the UEDF at Macross Island (and maybe a few other critical locations) likely would have prepared anti-giant defenses setup as standard procedure since they don't know when the aliens might come, and Macross Island itself might be a target (because of the SDF-1). That would be on top of preparing to defend against

As for time, I think they would have had some time. You had the space monitor report prior to the main gun firing, you had the main gun firing, you had a massive air battle that ended with enough time between it and the ground assault that Roy could execute repairs on Rick's VF-1 and give him a crash course. Said Air Battle went on long enough to gather up some trucks and rig up cables to pull the VF-1 upright to. Then you have the Pods having to clear open terrain, etc. So time was available to put into place some traps.

[glitterboy2098]

i'm not entirely certain that they'd have "anti-giant" stuff in place. because the UEG was keeping the details of the alien's a secret. including their size. hard to keep a secret when your telling it to so many people. heck, it would be hard enough to ensure the scientists and engineers refitting the SDF-1 don't talk about it to others.

but certainly they could have "anti-alien/anti-mecha" plans in place. my suggestion is cache's of anti-mecha weapons and ammo located around the city.
plus some missile batteries ontop of various buildings. the latter would double as an Anti-AUL measure too so wouldn't seem odd.

[Zer0 Kay]

i'm not entirely certain that they'd have "anti-giant" stuff in place. because the UEG was keeping the details of the alien's a secret. including their size. hard to keep a secret when your telling it to so many people. heck, it would be hard enough to ensure the scientists and engineers refitting the SDF-1 don't talk about it to others.

but certainly they could have "anti-alien/anti-mecha" plans in place. my suggestion is cache's of anti-mecha weapons and ammo located around the city.
plus some missile batteries ontop of various buildings. the latter would double as an Anti-AUL measure too so wouldn't seem odd.

Hmm... Now that you say it like that it may ALSO explain why they wanted transformable Mecha instead of flying power suits. They could phase out the previous generation fighter with the new replacement. Just be flying patrol and never give away that they're giant fighters.

[glitterboy2098]

that would seem to be the case actually.. in the show the civilians don't seem to have realized the VF-1's turn into giant robots prior to the battle. and the wildstorm comic covering the VF-1's development shows the alternate modes being tested way out at sea, or being worked on inside hanger's deep inside the military base part of the island.

so odds are yeah, the VF-1's were probably portrayed as just new fighter jets.

Destroids were probably known by the public though, but those they could probably spin into "a new generation of armored vehicle" and just hype up their mobility advantages. (the fact that most of the destroids are basically "weapons platforms with legs" would also have hidden their anti-giant goals)

[Arnie100]

http://robotech.wikia.com/wiki/Project_Excalibur

http://robotech.wikia.com/wiki/Project_Valkyrie

[Seto Kaiba]

that would seem to be the case actually.. in the show the civilians don't seem to have realized the VF-1's turn into giant robots prior to the battle. and the wildstorm comic covering the VF-1's development shows the alternate modes being tested way out at sea, or being worked on inside hanger's deep inside the military base part of the island.

so odds are yeah, the VF-1's were probably portrayed as just new fighter jets.

Destroids were probably known by the public though, but those they could probably spin into "a new generation of armored vehicle" and just hype up their mobility advantages. (the fact that most of the destroids are basically "weapons platforms with legs" would also have hidden their anti-giant goals)

Both the TV series and the RPG explicitly indicate that the general public was blissfully unaware that the next-generation fighter being shown off at the launch day airshow was a transformable robot... and the jig was up after the Zentradi attacked. Dialog from the 5th issue of From the Stars suggests that the destroids were developed in similar secrecy somewhere else in the world, the troops witnessing the delivery of a Tomahawk indicate they'd never seen one before.

All the destroids in the region were penned up out on the Daedalus, so it's possible the public could've been ignorant of them in Robotech... though in the OSM destroids were public knowledge years before the First Space War due to the use of early model destroids like the Cheyenne in the UN Wars.

They clearly weren't expecting an attack, so I doubt they'd have concealed weapons caches around the island... or, at least, not ones that would be obviously intended to fight giants as that would just raise awkward questions when the existence of giant aliens was a secret.

[eliakon]

They might have their own anti-mecha set ups though.
Since troops could be easily trained on how to 'fight enemy mecha if they are used' which helpfully works just as well on mecha sized infantry....

[ShadowLogan]

i'm not entirely certain that they'd have "anti-giant" stuff in place. because the UEG was keeping the details of the alien's a secret. including their size. hard to keep a secret when your telling it to so many people. heck, it would be hard enough to ensure the scientists and engineers refitting the SDF-1 don't talk about it to others.

but certainly they could have "anti-alien/anti-mecha" plans in place. my suggestion is cache's of anti-mecha weapons and ammo located around the city.
plus some missile batteries ontop of various buildings. the latter would double as an Anti-AUL measure too so wouldn't seem odd.

I think any anti-giant stuff would be masked and of the multi-role variety. And the anit-giant stuff could be portrayed as anti-alien since the UEDF likely had little to no actual information on what the aliens looked like that was publicly available, so they might want to portray it as them considering all their bases or publicly having different roles that also happen to also help against giants.

Hmm... Now that you say it like that it may ALSO explain why they wanted transformable Mecha instead of flying power suits. They could phase out the previous generation fighter with the new replacement. Just be flying patrol and never give away that they're giant fighters.

They could get away with flying power armor suits, but certainly nothing like a Destroid/Battloid mecha. A powered exo-skeleton suit (in the Power Armor range) with various capabilities would be attractive to the UEDF infantry and wouldn't necessarily give away they are dealing with giants since the weapons the infantry likely needs to carry to engage them are likely also of the heavy weapon variety (probably the anti-armor/tank kind to). Power Armor (exo-skeletons) has been of interest to the military for how long?

They clearly weren't expecting an attack, so I doubt they'd have concealed weapons caches around the island... or, at least, not ones that would be obviously intended to fight giants as that would just raise awkward questions when the existence of giant aliens was a secret.

Not expecting at an attack. That I doubt. If the UEDF wasn't preparing to fight the giant aliens, then they would have no need for the Grand Cannon installation in Alaska, or the various battloids (nt and vt) employed. I would agree that some in the UEDF (like Gloval) where hoping that it would not happen).

Any weapons intended to fight giants of the Zentreadi calibur (~x10 human size) would by their nature need to be of the high-energy capable weapons I would think to be useful, even against an unarmored giant of this size (baring something like a lucky shot to the eye). What the UEDF could publicly present, even to those w/o a need to know, is weapons that are multi-use. An anti-armor/tank weapon can be used in an anti-giant role for ex.

By all indications the UEDF did not have specs on Zentreadi mecha (or even Tirolian) found on the SDF-1. That likely means they would have to speculate wildly about what the alien mecha/vehicles might look like, so they have a "cover" available in training grunts in fighting hypothetical aliens.

[Zer0 Kay]

Hmm, but they didn't. If you have the choice of producing the most effective machines or many smaller somewhat effective machines and you could only pick one route which would you go first knowing that you have no clue when the enemy may appear?

[ShadowLogan]

Which is more palatable to lose, less expensive items or more expensive items. That expense includes the item itself, but also the resources that go into training its operators. So it isn't just a A is better than B on paper in terms of performance, there are other factors to consider.

Actually we don't know if the UEDF had power armor developed by this point to be field capable in the show (or 2E RPG), but we know (in the 2E RPG at least) that research was underway for new mecha in Antarctica by the close of the 1st Robotech War in 2011 (which includes the VHT). We know the UEDF:ASC's Unicorn Power Armor was deployed by 2013 (which likely means it was one of these new mecha) and is the oldest power armor still serving with the UEDF in 2029, and the text in The Masters SB I looked at doesn't rule out even older designs. Look at the UEDF:ASC and the UEEF, both are known/said to employ power armor infantry (Cyclones, power amplified body armor) and full mecha (VFs, VHTs, and nt-battloids), why would the UEDF:RDF be any different if it had the capability?

And that capability does not have to have a primary focus on anti-giant/alien, it could achieve it by secondary use of its primary use. Flying does not have to be literal, but figurative in this case to.

[glitterboy2098]

in regards to PA.. it is worth noting that the Unicorn is not only the oldest, but also the biggest, being basically a quarter the size of a Destroid. presumably it's PA status is due to control systems, probably something similar to the AMPsuits of John Cameron's Avatar where the pilot sits in a semi-cockpit and controls the suit through a forcefeedback limb movement reader.

in regards to anti-mecha gear. the Cache's i was suggesting would basically be like an armoryroom in each police building, or select government buildings, with MD grenades, explosives, maybe a minimissile launcher and some reloads, etc. stuff so MP's and other troops on the island could arm up in the event of an attack. since the same gear is useful against Tanks, armored cars, and the like, it would just seem like prudent (if slightly paranoid) planning. have the locks on them open only to codes officer's are given (and have the codes be unique to each person, so that if they're broken into they could track who's code was used)

[Zer0 Kay]

Which is more palatable to lose, less expensive items or more expensive items. That expense includes the item itself, but also the resources that go into training its operators. So it isn't just a A is better than B on paper in terms of performance, there are other factors to consider.

Actually we don't know if the UEDF had power armor developed by this point to be field capable in the show (or 2E RPG), but we know (in the 2E RPG at least) that research was underway for new mecha in Antarctica by the close of the 1st Robotech War in 2011 (which includes the VHT). We know the UEDF:ASC's Unicorn Power Armor was deployed by 2013 (which likely means it was one of these new mecha) and is the oldest power armor still serving with the UEDF in 2029, and the text in The Masters SB I looked at doesn't rule out even older designs. Look at the UEDF:ASC and the UEEF, both are known/said to employ power armor infantry (Cyclones, power amplified body armor) and full mecha (VFs, VHTs, and nt-battloids), why would the UEDF:RDF be any different if it had the capability?

And that capability does not have to have a primary focus on anti-giant/alien, it could achieve it by secondary use of its primary use. Flying does not have to be literal, but figurative in this case to.

Gee just like U.S. Military. Do they go and develop a better infantry system or purchase a fleet of billion dollar fighters and then for some reason develop an even more expensive lower tech fighter while not even allowing advanced armor systems and counter measures to be used for foot soldiers and their transports?

Cyclone and ASC PA developed after they got the factory allowing them to be more liberal with their development since resources and man power was of less concern. We aren't talking PA in the future of RT but at the beginning before any extraterrestrial conflict. We can use the negative of they don't say they didn't have a prior PA but if we start that we can also say it doesn't say there was a super advanced super expensive Veritech that would blow everything out of the sky but they went with the current one for cost efficiency. Obviously Emile was on an opposing development team and didn't feel sort in the leSt when the developers were destroyed during the first orbital bombardment. He found fault in their concept of a few superpowerful fighters instead believing the use of fighters should be like hornets with a swarm to push back the opponent at which time the big guns on the rather fragile ships would be used to take out the opponents. So instead, since we see none, there were none.

[ShadowLogan]

in regards to PA.. it is worth noting that the Unicorn is not only the oldest, but also the biggest, being basically a quarter the size of a Destroid. presumably it's PA status is due to control systems, probably something similar to the AMPsuits of John Cameron's Avatar where the pilot sits in a semi-cockpit and controls the suit through a forcefeedback limb movement reader.

Um, no. The Unicron is the oldest, but it is not the biggest PA in the UEDF:ASC by dimensions (Triton), and it is unclear if its mass is dry or like nearly all the others in a fueled and with a pilot:
-Unicorn: 504kg (dry? w/fuel & pilot?) and 3.1m tall
-Triton: 542.7kg (w/fuel & pilot) and 3.4m tall
-Manticore: 518kg (w/fuel & pilot) and 3.2m tall
-Kraken: 472.5kg (dry? w/fuel & pilot?) and 3m tall
-Fenris: 428kg (w/fuel & pilot) and 3m tall
-Basilisk: 630kg (w/fuel & pilot) and 3.3m tall.

The Unicron is basically average in the height category and does date to tail-end of TMS-era when it was deployed, so it was in development prior to that w/n the TMS-era itself. Controls for the ASC PA are established via dialogue, I don't think we have to speculate using another IP.

Gee just like U.S. Military. Do they go and develop a better infantry system or purchase a fleet of billion dollar fighters and then for some reason develop an even more expensive lower tech fighter while not even allowing advanced armor systems and counter measures to be used for foot soldiers and their transports?

In the realm of PR you mean? Yes some branches are better at the PR game than others, but that does not mean developments are not occurring.

Cyclone and ASC PA developed after they got the factory allowing them to be more liberal with their development since resources and man power was of less concern. We aren't talking PA in the future of RT but at the beginning before any extraterrestrial conflict.

The Cyclone is a 2020s development IINM and that might be applicable with a later captured satellite.

However, the ASC Power Armor was deployed sometime in 2013, so there was a development period that preceded it (if it follows other examples in RT talking several years at least of development). Also the Factory Satellite was captured in mid-2013 (by RT.com timeline), and by all indications was not in a usable state (dialogue from the show even suggests to it being down permanently). So the RFS is not likely to have figured in any plans with any mecha production for a couple years at minimum I would think.

Given the lead time for the Unicorn PA, it is possible that other Infantry PA at similar technology levels are also around in that time period.

[batlchip]

Hmmm,let your PC's come up with ways to harass or take down the enemy.Let them act as desperate defenders.
You will might be surprised in how the deal with battle pods and EVA zents.

[Zer0 Kay]

in regards to PA.. it is worth noting that the Unicorn is not only the oldest, but also the biggest, being basically a quarter the size of a Destroid. presumably it's PA status is due to control systems, probably something similar to the AMPsuits of John Cameron's Avatar where the pilot sits in a semi-cockpit and controls the suit through a forcefeedback limb movement reader.

Um, no. The Unicron is the oldest, but it is not the biggest PA in the UEDF:ASC by dimensions (Triton), and it is unclear if its mass is dry or like nearly all the others in a fueled and with a pilot:
-Unicorn: 504kg (dry? w/fuel & pilot?) and 3.1m tall
-Triton: 542.7kg (w/fuel & pilot) and 3.4m tall
-Manticore: 518kg (w/fuel & pilot) and 3.2m tall
-Kraken: 472.5kg (dry? w/fuel & pilot?) and 3m tall
-Fenris: 428kg (w/fuel & pilot) and 3m tall
-Basilisk: 630kg (w/fuel & pilot) and 3.3m tall.

The Unicron is basically average in the height category and does date to tail-end of TMS-era when it was deployed, so it was in development prior to that w/n the TMS-era itself. Controls for the ASC PA are established via dialogue, I don't think we have to speculate using another IP.

Gee just like U.S. Military. Do they go and develop a better infantry system or purchase a fleet of billion dollar fighters and then for some reason develop an even more expensive lower tech fighter while not even allowing advanced armor systems and counter measures to be used for foot soldiers and their transports?

In the realm of PR you mean? Yes some branches are better at the PR game than others, but that does not mean developments are not occurring.

Cyclone and ASC PA developed after they got the factory allowing them to be more liberal with their development since resources and man power was of less concern. We aren't talking PA in the future of RT but at the beginning before any extraterrestrial conflict.

The Cyclone is a 2020s development IINM and that might be applicable with a later captured satellite.

However, the ASC Power Armor was deployed sometime in 2013, so there was a development period that preceded it (if it follows other examples in RT talking several years at least of development). Also the Factory Satellite was captured in mid-2013 (by RT.com timeline), and by all indications was not in a usable state (dialogue from the show even suggests to it being down permanently). So the RFS is not likely to have figured in any plans with any mecha production for a couple years at minimum I would think.

Given the lead time for the Unicorn PA, it is possible that other Infantry PA at similar technology levels are also around in that time period.

PR? No I don't mean in Public Relations. The Dragon Skin Armor was shown to be better than the armies Interceptor armor but they won't use it. There was an anti explosive projectile device that was being tested and had a 60% accuracy. It was nicknamed the forcefield. The system was canceled because the U.S. politicians didn't want the possibility of killing "innocent" children that threw rocks at equipment armed with the system and yet they authorize production of an ill equipped, poorly designed, ridiculously priced fighter that is actually a generation behind the newest fighter.

My point is that The UEG and later ASC is likely going to be the same as the USA as far as politicians making poor choices for the military, sometimes complete blunders. So assuming the they wouldn't do something because it costs more is that, an assumption.

[RockJock]

Depending on the situation here are a few ideas to go with laser guided arty, and SLAP rounds for infantry.

Shoulder fired rockets/mini missile and Recoilless Rifles on light vehicles/jeeps?

Explosive satchel charges. Sort of a version of IEDs, or planted on the battlepod/foot soldier directly. I don't remember anything like a jump pack being part of the Macross Saga, but an ascending line would work as well to help plant them at joints and what not.

To go with the IEDs anti-mecha landmines. Not exactly a standard infantry weapon, but something that would be available.