Kevin posted a new Murmur !

[AlexM]

A linky:


viewtopic.php?f=49&t=149901&p=2896836#p2896836






Alex Marciniszyn,

[agent_orange]

And the only news in robotech tactics is that he breaks another promise by offering exclusives that were offered as ks and convention only on the website. Nice

[Ninjafingers]

And the only news in robotech tactics is that he breaks another promise by offering exclusives that were offered as ks and convention only on the website. Nice

Wait a sec, what was the promise? That the items would be offered to KS folks and at conventions first or that they would only ever be offered to KS people and at conventions? If he's offering stuff to the public before the KS fulfillment that's one thing, but if not, then what's the big deal?

[Tiree]

And the only news in robotech tactics is that he breaks another promise by offering exclusives that were offered as ks and convention only on the website. Nice

Wait a sec, what was the promise? That the items would be offered to KS folks and at conventions first or that they would only ever be offered to KS people and at conventions? If he's offering stuff to the public before the KS fulfillment that's one thing, but if not, then what's the big deal?

Even though I am not a Kickstarter backer, nor a RT:Tactics Fan. I can see how AO could get miffed at the fact that Kevin is offering Kickstarter and Convention Exclusives to the general public, in their normal business channel.

By having the exclusive items being sold in a non-exclusive way, devalues their exclusivity, and resale market.

It's like saying: I have Merlin make Excalibur for me. And I have it, it's all cool and exclusive. Then Merlin comes around and makes 50,000 more and sells it to everyone and their brother. Not bothering even to have them pull it out of the stone.

[Kryptt]

As a backer it's fine by me if Kevin sells the exclusives to everyone. RRT is a fun game even with the clunky HtH and LOS rules. No one is playing the game to begin with and backers and FLGS can't even make their money back on it. With wave two only being talk at this moment I don't know if the tabletop community will even care if or when wave two drops. Most of the positive momentum for RRT dried up two years ago.

[Tiree]

As a backer it's fine by me if Kevin sells the exclusives to everyone. RRT is a fun game even with the clunky HtH and LOS rules. No one is playing the game to begin with and backers and FLGS can't even make their money back on it. With wave two only being talk at this moment I don't know if the tabletop community will even care if or when wave two drops. Most of the positive momentum for RRT dried up two years ago.

I was just pointing out the reason why it's not kosher to do so.

With that said, I don't see any issue with Kevin placing them in Christmas Grab Bags, and selling them through his Ebay Store. Both would keep the exclusivity in a manner of speaking and keep that intangible 'price' high.

[agent_orange]

Heres a quote from update 179 which is signed by Kevin Siembieda.

"These exclusives will ONLY BE OFFERED at conventions AND TO OUR KICKSTARTER BACKERS. They are not being made available to retail stores. So you may want to talk to your friends who aren’t part of the Kickstarter and order some for them if they want any."

so yes, another promise broken.

[Jorel]

That does sound pretty specific

[Jorel]

I can already see the dialog now...retail means stores...they are selling it from their own site, not a retail outlet.

[agent_orange]

don't think the internet counts as a convention.
the sad thing is though, I'm really not surprised.

[Marcus]

don't think the internet counts as a convention.
the sad thing is though, I'm really not surprised.

Doesn't count as a retail store either. So there was room to wiggle out of it to beginn with.

[agent_orange]

there is no wiggle room "These exclusives will ONLY BE OFFERED at conventions AND TO OUR KICKSTARTER BACKERS." Kevins own words with the original emphasis.

[Ninjafingers]

Full disclosure here - Not a KS backer for RTT nor do I have anything RTT related. Zip. Nada. I did do the Zombicide kickstarter so I'm familiar with KS exclusives and whatnot.

I'm just not really seeing the big deal here. Okay, he said one thing and is now selling the exclusives for 48 hours on the Palladium site as part of a special sale. They're not on eBay, they're not in retail stores and were only available for a brief time to the handful of people who come to this site. Is it a broken promise? I guess it depends on how nitpicky and lawyering you wanna get.

I just don't see getting all worked up over it.

[agent_orange]

I dont see it as that at all, is the paladium webstore a kickstarter? no
is it a convention? no.

These are the two places that the exclusives were to be available, that was the agreement made and the terms set by kevin himself.
So selling them on the website is breaking that agreement. The duration that the agreement is broken for doesn't matter. Its done
Now they are being sold on the website and that is not what was agreed. To be honest if it was just this one agreement that was reneged on I probably would be less annoyed but this is just the latest in a long line of things.

[BookWyrm]

I'll see if I can hit The Strat in NYC when Rifter #71/72 gets there.

[wilycoyote]

I am a backer and to be fair it is not that big a deal, they are a too pricey to make up meaningful formations on the tabletop anyway.

The real broken promise? It is the complete lack of communication by Palladium on the status of the project.

Four months since Wayne promised a complete status report on every wave 2 model, months since a proper and meanigful KS updates (exclude the last one was a rules changes and longer if you ignore those that were simply sales ptches) Oh I nearly forgot those conventional forces rules, cards and wave 2 standees promised months ago.

Now this is what gets my back up, I have already paid and in this case still have not got what was on sale.

[Kryptt]

Ok that is a broken promise and one I don't agree with. A few months back Kevin did post that he wanted to restart the rrt conversation with more updates and more insider info. So far nothing but empty broken promises.

[Jorel]

Ok that is a broken promise and one I don't agree with. A few months back Kevin did post that he wanted to restart the rrt conversation with more updates and more insider info. So far nothing but empty broken promises.

A murmur every 6 mos. I think they are tryin as hard as they can.

[rosco60559]

or as hard as they're willing to try

[Jorel]

or as hard as they're willing to try

that also sounds accurate

[Spinachcat]

"Exclusives" are often a problem. The company makes a bunch, more than necessary for the KS because of economies of scale, and then they don't sell enough at conventions. So what to do with the excess inventory?

Please understand there are US TAX CODE issues with keeping inventory year to year. That's one reason why you see big year end sales. Remember storage is a business expense and that plays into tax calculations.

So PB is in a tough spot.

I don't blame them for breaking their agreement. The FAR BIGGER problem is Robotech Tactics is becoming the wargame version of BTS 2e. From my viewpoint, the delay of Wave 2 is LESS problematic than the lack of any Organized Play so the game isn't promoted at game stores or conventions.

Minis gamers are competitive. The basic box is enough to get people painting and fighting on tables for prizes.

This weekend my FLGS - the biggest in Los Angeles - is hosting a 40k tourney. The place will be packed. People will war, prizes will be won and lots of game stuff will be sold off the shelves as gamers buy Xmas gifts and stuff for themselves.

Guess what's not on their shelves?

[Marcus]

"Exclusives" are often a problem. The company makes a bunch, more than necessary for the KS because of economies of scale, and then they don't sell enough at conventions. So what to do with the excess inventory?

Please understand there are US TAX CODE issues with keeping inventory year to year. That's one reason why you see big year end sales. Remember storage is a business expense and that plays into tax calculations.

So PB is in a tough spot.

I don't blame them for breaking their agreement. The FAR BIGGER problem is Robotech Tactics is becoming the wargame version of BTS 2e. From my viewpoint, the delay of Wave 2 is LESS problematic than the lack of any Organized Play so the game isn't promoted at game stores or conventions.

Minis gamers are competitive. The basic box is enough to get people painting and fighting on tables for prizes.

This weekend my FLGS - the biggest in Los Angeles - is hosting a 40k tourney. The place will be packed. People will war, prizes will be won and lots of game stuff will be sold off the shelves as gamers buy Xmas gifts and stuff for themselves.

Guess what's not on their shelves?

Epic?

[zyanitevp]

"Exclusives" are often a problem. The company makes a bunch, more than necessary for the KS because of economies of scale, and then they don't sell enough at conventions. So what to do with the excess inventory?

Please understand there are US TAX CODE issues with keeping inventory year to year. That's one reason why you see big year end sales. Remember storage is a business expense and that plays into tax calculations.

So PB is in a tough spot.

I don't blame them for breaking their agreement. The FAR BIGGER problem is Robotech Tactics is becoming the wargame version of BTS 2e. From my viewpoint, the delay of Wave 2 is LESS problematic than the lack of any Organized Play so the game isn't promoted at game stores or conventions.

Minis gamers are competitive. The basic box is enough to get people painting and fighting on tables for prizes.

This weekend my FLGS - the biggest in Los Angeles - is hosting a 40k tourney. The place will be packed. People will war, prizes will be won and lots of game stuff will be sold off the shelves as gamers buy Xmas gifts and stuff for themselves.

Guess what's not on their shelves?

That same store has been one of the only to have organized play, and multiple tries at tournaments. Unfortunately the lack of Wave 2 killed interest.

[jaymz]

And the lack of ANYTHING let alone wave two is killing the game as a whole.

The very sad part of this? RRT IS basically a decent game and fun to play.

[Steve Carroll]

Right now I just wish that they had kept their promise and gave us that new update within a week like they said they would. Too much to ask for I guess.

[Shark_Force]

kevin always intends to post murmurs regularly, and very rarely does. he's great at some things, but he's got flaws that he's had for decades... he's always extremely optimistic about when a book will be released, for example. always. no matter how many times a book comes out months after he thought it would, he always expects the next book to be sent off to the printer in next to no time. no matter how often he only manages to release a handful of books in a year, he always expects to release 12-24 (and possibly more!!!!!)

unfortunately, if you are going to be a palladium fan, i strongly recommend you focus on the positive, and get used to reading the rest through a filter. books will be later than expected, usually by months. palladium will release 3-6 books in a typical year. they're not going to be communicative (even when they do post things, the great majority of it is repeat information, or some variation of "this [book, game, picture, etc] is going to be awesome").

but when the book finally comes out (and again, i cannot stress this enough, don't hold your breath; my advice is that you start planning on a set time when kevin announces that it has already been sent off to the printers, because books stay "almost done" or "will be finished next week" for months at a time), it is going to be amazing and make you want more. and you'll be wishing the next one would come out in a month like kevin hopes. heck, we all wish that, i think. but take it with a grain of salt, or you'll probably be disappointed repeatedly and eventually come to feel bitter about it. the book will be done when it is done, and unfortunately that probably won't be when kevin thinks it will be done, or even close to it. it probably sounds pretty cynical, but the only promise from palladium i recommend you place any serious faith in is the promise that when it is done, it will be awesome.

[Kryptt]

It's because of this ^ that I don't bother GMing PB games. If you need more info and you won't get any until the next book comes out, or more like if, is just to much. I heard stories that some guys stopped playing because they were waiting and waiting and waiting still on a certain book. And before someone here says I should make it up and blah blah blah, don't. As a paying customer I shouldn't have to make up for Kevin's or PB's shortcomings just because. It's just to much work being a PB fan. PB is not worth the effort.

[jaymz]

but when the book finally comes out ...... it is going to be amazing and make you want more. and you'll be wishing the next one would come out in a month like kevin hopes.

Except THIS is not the case anymore for most of us. Maybe for you but not the fanbase as a whole as demonstrated as much negativity that tends to be seen after a book comes out. Then again we are seeing less negativity as many just don;t bother posting anymore from fear of being warned for being "too negative" as has been seen happening of late.

The fact that they have had a dwindling fan base and shrinking sales (I do not need to see the books to know this as evidence from Palladium itself has shown this) should be clues to STOP doing what they do the way they do it.

And just "letting it go" only encourages them to keep up **** poor behavior.

[Kryptt]

So I take it no one is going to submit an honest review about PB games on RPGs.net? Like I said before I can write one up when I feel like bothering with it but it's going to be honest. I'm not going to casually not include the bad and only the good considering there's so little good to speak of. I think the only reason PB is in business is because 98% of the fanbase played PB games as kids or teens in the 90's and its nostalgia that keeps PB afloat and not ground breaking game mechanics. RRT could have brought in some much needed new blood and money but it would appear that ship has sailed.

[Forar]

Right now I just wish that they had kept their promise and gave us that new update within a week like they said they would. Too much to ask for I guess.

Agreed.

It has been half a year since Wayne said he'd bring us up to speed on where everything is, and over 10 months since we last saw something new from wave two that showed signs of production progress.

Books being delayed is one thing; those are creative efforts mixed between mechanics and fluff.

But bringing us up to speed on the status of the items is purely factual. Either a mold is milled, or it isn't. Either a sprue breakdown has been made, or it hasn't. We're not asking them to craft things from whole cloth, but simply give a transparent assessment of things based purely on facts.

This should have been doable in an afternoon, and as the weeks and months tick by, the expectation is going up that they have *something* of note to say.

"We've made phone calls" doesn't cut it when the design time between waves is over a year and a half now.

[Shark_Force]

but when the book finally comes out ...... it is going to be amazing and make you want more. and you'll be wishing the next one would come out in a month like kevin hopes.

Except THIS is not the case anymore for most of us. Maybe for you but not the fanbase as a whole as demonstrated as much negativity that tends to be seen after a book comes out. Then again we are seeing less negativity as many just don;t bother posting anymore from fear of being warned for being "too negative" as has been seen happening of late.

The fact that they have had a dwindling fan base and shrinking sales (I do not need to see the books to know this as evidence from Palladium itself has shown this) should be clues to STOP doing what they do the way they do it.

And just "letting it go" only encourages them to keep up **** poor behavior.

people being bitter about who the product comes from is not the same thing as the product not being good. bill cosby right now could release a new video of him telling the funniest jokes he has ever told, and because of what is going on with him right now it most likely would not sell nearly as well as it might have 10 years ago.

you're angry. that's reasonable. you have reasons to be disappointed, upset, and angry. you have perfectly valid reasons to take your business elsewhere, even. palladium as a company has flaws, and has had flaws for quite some time.

but that doesn't mean their product isn't good when it comes out. it just means that people are frustrated with the company.

(that also doesn't mean they shouldn't do something to fix the problems they have, mind you, but at this point, well... we've both had the same promises made to us, but you're angry and bitter and resentful, while i'm pretty chil about the whole situation. personally, i'd rather be in my situation than yours, particularly when all signs point to the fact that absolutely nothing that i do is going to change the situation; people have expressed frustration with these problems to the company for years, freelancers have tried to encourage things to get finished, etc. nothing seems to change that one aspect. so unless you've got a way to clone kevin or can afford to hire him an entire second team of people that he completely 100% trusts with handling every stage of production, getting angry doesn't change anything. may as well just accept it and move on, one way or the other. i'm not telling you that you should be buying their product, mind you; i'm saying that whether you buy their products or not, there isn't much point in getting angry about it).

[wilycoyote]

Is that the real point though, that any and all Palladium product needs to be channelled, assessed, reworked to the satisfaction of one man (Kevin). As a result the offerings do not seem to have moved on from the late 80's /90's. Clunky mechanics, poor layouts (where was that table I think I saw?) and artwork that was fine back then but compared to some on offer in their rivals new offerings....well

Yes there are die hard fans who do not want change, but this is not going to attract new bllod into the circle - the books are not that new user friendly. So a potential new buyer will simply find something more suited to todays rpger.

Okay, let us face the facts PB is not going to change anytime soon and so regardless of how many "fan" supported reviews go online, the result is the same a slow decline as the old guard moves on.