Where do all the humans come from?

[The Artist Formerly]

With the shadow chronicles in full swing, I'm left wondering where all the humans who man these war machines come from. TSC represents humanities's fourth robotech war, fifth war in very rappid succession, or perhaps sixth war if we count the sentinel's arc. These wars were all fought with weapons of truely devestating nature and unimagineable power. Where do the people who man the laundry services, make the food, repair the ships and in general do the stuff that lets the camera time robotech characters do their thing, come from?

The gobal civil war had 'drastic' effects on the world's population. Of course this was a deus ex machina to cover the US not being the sole power of the SDF-1 Project. It or something like it is a fairly common event in a number of Japan based anime. These events allow a tiny little country that hasn't been really relivant aside from truely mind numbing physical punishment game shows to be prominant once again on the world stage. Silly as it is, we're going to run with it for now. While we're running, we need to deal with two points. First, war on the kind of scale that it would take to damage the US' ability to dictate to the rest of the world how the Vistor/SDF-1 thing was going to roll would have been even worse for the rest of the world. Second and here's the real problem, as a general rule, for every soldier who is killed in combat, three to eight people die from the damage to society/loss of resources that the fighting causes. That's before you figure in things like carpet bombing cities or low yeild tactical nukes.

So that's a lot of dead people around the world up until the Zor's ship hits the earth. Then a breif period of peace breaks out. Groovy. About ten years. But with every major economy in the world jack hammered in the war, there are no safe places where money and resources were horded, nor any mass markets to sell products too. The rebuilding model, post world war two is right out the window. No Marshall plan, no MacArthur. Just busted up cities and nations doing for themselves. So we can recover, build new cities, repair the old ones, it just takes time. One hang up though, the world has to pay for the rebuilding effort of the SDF-1, which seems immensely expensive, and the develop of Veritech fighters, the ARMD platforms, the two Lancer fighters, and all the other assorted elements of Robotechnology that had to be developed, tested and then built. Plus a new multi-national fighting force that was apparently devoid of any pre-existing love of their own country and hate for other people's country had to be raised up, lead by the guys who had been the most successful at killing each other's guys during that civil war. I've always wondered how it was that Roy Folker lived long enough to be killed by Myria, I would have figured atleast a few of his pilots would have resented his killing of their friends or family during the GCW and beaten him with a stick while he slept. But I digress. These factors would have applied serious drag to the rebuilding efforts. Especially when you start figuring in political factors and having to deal with the intense hate that gave rise to the GCW in the first place.

But some how, probably through the use of space helicopters and protoculture, the world is able to pull it all off. Then comes the Zentraedi rain of Death. Somewhere between total and complete devestation and 70% of the world dies in orbital bombardment. That seriously sucks. RDF=epic fail.

Then some time passes. The REF takes a bunch of earth's best and brightest into space to go hunt the Masters. Who it turns out are on their way to earth. The REF engages in the Invid in the Master's neck of the woods while the Armies of the Southern Cross fail spectacularly trying to contain the Master's offensives. Fortunately, a Robotech Master/clone/bioroid pilot/Veritech Hovertank pilot named zor is able to singlehandly save all of earth. Then he dies. Thank you and good night sweet Zor, may flights of devils wing thee to thy rest. Fortuneately the Masters were so weak and deprived of power, that they lacked the strength to really tune up the Earth. Instead of genocide, their crimes generally only equalled out to attempted grand theft SDF-1, kidnapping, illegal discharge of firearms inside city limits, resisting arrest and of course my favorite, preforming lobotmies without proper medical licencing.

Ten minutes later, however, the Invid show up and kill most everyone dead. The blast the tech centers and everywhere with protoculture. Which can't leave much. This is of course after the population drains of the gobal civil war, the Zent war, the REF exodus and the master's semi-competant attack on the almost semi-competant ASC. The Invid then go on to a burn and purge policy that would make a Soviet dictator smile with joy.

But the REF is still out there, still having babies, even if humanities' craddle is all but emptied of humans, the grand fleet of the REF is still out there. Untill they show up to liberate reflex point. Then most of them die.

So where did all the people needed to man these ships come from? Where do all the civilians that our heros rush off to save come from? How is there anyone left for evil aliens to kill? Most of the population was already killed by evil aliens, who's left and how?

[Library Ogre]

Tirol and the Zentraedi battle fleet.

[AdmTolval]

Viagra?

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip..

I'd say that many of the returning REF personnel were probably test-tube babies, if not outright clones. And humans, Zentraedi, and Tirolians are all capable of interbreeding. I'm sure very few of the new generation of Robotech defenders are 100% homegrown, Earth humans.

If you mean, by the use of the term 'teat tube babies', that they were grown in artificial wombs, I would agree with you. The 1st SC char I made up has several sibs, and himself, that incubated in 'tubes'.

But if you mean that they were made as fully grown (14-16 yrs.), then I would disagree with you. While Zentradiee might be able to be produced 'fully grown' there would be a very high bias against it in the human population.

[BookWyrm]

Humanco. For all your mass-human-population needs.

[The Artist Formerly]

snip..

I'd say that many of the returning REF personnel were probably test-tube babies, if not outright clones. And humans, Zentraedi, and Tirolians are all capable of interbreeding. I'm sure very few of the new generation of Robotech defenders are 100% homegrown, Earth humans.

If you mean, by the use of the term 'teat tube babies', that they were grown in artificial wombs, I would agree with you. The 1st SC char I made up has several sibs, and himself, that incubated in 'tubes'.

But if you mean that they were made as fully grown (14-16 yrs.), then I would disagree with you. While Zentradiee might be able to be produced 'fully grown' there would be a very high bias against it in the human population.

True, but that only holds true if command let the cat out of the bag.

The factory ship that Max and Myria took would have provided cloning hardware. High command could have cloned up a few hundred thousand people, all at differing ages, placed false memories in their heads based on the real life experiences of RDF personel and attached dependants in for "medical check ups" and crewed their ships or even refilled their population bases that way. DNA samples from the RDF soldiers, their dependants (Macross city) along with other survivors should produce sufficent diversity, no? If the RTMs can build a false society for their clones that way, I don't see why RDF command couldn't do it as well.

[taalismn]

The dark side of Minmei concerts...the fertility drug party-orgies afterwards...

[Novastar]

Egads...

Minmei clones!

[glitterboy2098]

well, odds are a lot of the "humans" you see in later era's have zentreadi ancestry hiding somewhere in their family tree. there were plenty of zents stuck on earth after the grand fleet was defeated, and not all of them fell in with khyron or similar renegades. sure, we have statements in southern Cross about the zen't being gone, but perhaps they only meant the macronized zents. the human sized ones, after some cultural adjustment, probably could blend into human society pretty well.

plus you have the posibility of "genetic colonists", with extra aid being given to anyone willing to volunteer to be a surrogate mother and/or father as a way of expanding the genepool.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Humanco. For all your mass-human-population needs.

More like the Cyteen crech banks.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I never got the Vibe from Robotech that the Earth's population was in any crisis before the SDF-1 landed... up until Gloval killed off an entire Sector of Canada with a barrier overload when he was ordered off the planet to avoid that kinda stuff... and then when the Rain of Death killed of an Unknown Percentage of human populations, but left Various major Cities unscathed... Like newyork...
I dont see any Evidence of Test-tube babies or Cloning in the actual show, and havent read of any evidence in the Comics either.
the only known clone would be the Tirolians on the Master's ships in the second storyarc.
in the 2nd and 3rd storyarcs Humanity is facing invasions again and again, but the mass kill offs arent really shown, and the existance of large amounts of people in the 3rd arc shows that what the Masters & Invid did wasnt on compareable level to the Zents.
as for the "Zents being gone" statements Scott made... well, if their "culture" was completly abolished.. and they are basically 100% Human Genetically... the Zents are pretty much gone.

[The Artist Formerly]

Well, we have a couple of flaws here. Aside from the appearence of land marks in NYC that don't exist in NYC anymore that is. Given the array of weapons pointed at the earth by the Zents, I'd guess that either NYC was vaporized and then rebuilt or the Zent battle group in charge of turning the city to ashes had bad coordinates in the Firecontrol system and just plain missed. Everyone rolls a one now and then.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Well, we have a couple of flaws here. Aside from the appearence of land marks in NYC that don't exist in NYC anymore that is. Given the array of weapons pointed at the earth by the Zents, I'd guess that either NYC was vaporized and then rebuilt or the Zent battle group in charge of turning the city to ashes had bad coordinates in the Firecontrol system and just plain missed. Everyone rolls a one now and then.

or more easily, the bombardment wasnt as "complete" as everyone wants to believe.
New york looks pretty good considering the Masters war followed by 10+ years of invid occupation. the Sataue of Liberty looked pretty good to.
its easier to believe it simply wasnt targetd, over they missed (no nat1's to blame in the show afaik), or it was rebuilt down to the last stone...
as for the people returning from deep Space, the Events you learn about in Denver leads me to think a large exodus occured before the inital Invid Strike.

[Novastar]

So I think most of us are in agreement that in one way or another humanity would have no trouble generating a hefty population in very little time.

...especially if they mass-cloned Angelina Jolie, or Scarlet Johansen!

[Colonel Wolfe]

I'll make this simple

3rd Gen ISNT REALLY MACROSS... Yes it was cut and fitted to become Robotech, but its not Macross, so you cant depend on its footage to be accurate anymore then you can for ASC. New York still exists in 3rd Gen because there was no Rain of Death in MOSPADEA and they needed the footage or didnt have the foresight to realize people like us would go "New York should be a huge dustball since the Zents would have pounded our most dense population zones 5 times over and not left anything standing by mere act of such a bombardment!" - to the point the atmosphere seemed to boil off! You arent going to get an answer you like using that sort of thing as your basis, so lets stay away from anything we see in footage and stick with hyperbole and conjecture:

and ROBOTECH ISNT MACROSS EITHER>
but 3rd arc is ROBOTECH and the Footage form 1st arc is in ROBOTECH and the footage in 3rd Arc proves events in previous Arcs. being this is the ROBOTECH rpg forums, and the Show is where we get information for the RPG from... I'll stick to Canon Facts for the RPG from the Same source Kevin gets them, the Show. i'm Pretty sure that Macross-world has a nice Macross RPG section over there if your discussing stuff in macross only.

The Human Populace in 3rd arc is pretty dense being their are few episodes they arent in contact with some group of people. the Existance of Major Pre-war cities is enough efidence for me to know that the "Rain of death" was not nearly as complete in Robotech as it was in Macross.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Remind me to thank NMI for instating the Friend/Foe thing.

At any rate - idiocy aside,

and what Idocy is that? Relying on the Actual Show for canon information?

a thought occured to me that given the nature of people's lives because of the GCW - its likely a lot of them had fallout shelters, coupled with the cities own shelters - a lot of people probably survived the Zentraedi bombardment via that method, wouldnt you think?

or survived simply because the "bombardment" Missed entire metropolitan areas...

[Library Ogre]

a thought occured to me that given the nature of people's lives because of the GCW - its likely a lot of them had fallout shelters, coupled with the cities own shelters - a lot of people probably survived the Zentraedi bombardment via that method, wouldnt you think?

or survived simply because the "bombardment" Missed entire metropolitan areas...

It tagged a lot of them. Looking at the old RDF Field Manual, the devastation is pretty nasty... including a wonderful spot of black that includes Houston, and likely San Antonio, Austin, and maybe Dallas/Ft. Worth. However, that devastation doesn't go as far north as Oklahoma City, or Wichita, or any of the cities of the Upper Plains. I can't recall if there's a black divot near Chicago or not. You'd have a lot of survivors there, as well as places like Africa.

I think there WOULD be folks who survived in fallout shelters ("Eight miles high and falling fast..."). However, they'd be the ones on the fringes of the devastation zones. Anyone living in Manhattan (or Houston) would be monoatomic dust. The saturation fire would provide no safe havens. However, out towards the edges, there'd be places near strikes, but far enough away to survive the explosion of soil and super-heated air.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the world's most important cities were rebuilt after the RoD. Even if they were vaporized, faithful replicas could be constructed. After all, there's a lot of time between the 1st Robotech war and the invid invasion. Toss in the sheer speed with which the new technologies allow things to be built, ample raw materials in the form of downed Zent ships, hordes of 50' tall workers, and a populace eager to try and pretend like Earth had never been devastated and you might see the return of New York, Paris, London, Tokyo, etc. in an amazingly short amount of time.

show me where it happened in the show... and id buy it... its easier to believe new york wasnt hit...
heck 2 towers in new york fall down... and they havent rebuilt them in simple memory of the mass death that occured one day... now apmlify that by 100,000 times... and you get the rain of death.
rebuilding it as it was would be a terrible resource waste...
Monument city was built after the RoD and its a future-tech city... clearly a rebuilt new york wouldnt look almost exactly like it dose today.

[The Artist Formerly]

a thought occured to me that given the nature of people's lives because of the GCW - its likely a lot of them had fallout shelters, coupled with the cities own shelters - a lot of people probably survived the Zentraedi bombardment via that method, wouldnt you think?

or survived simply because the "bombardment" Missed entire metropolitan areas...

It tagged a lot of them. Looking at the old RDF Field Manual, the devastation is pretty nasty... including a wonderful spot of black that includes Houston, and likely San Antonio, Austin, and maybe Dallas/Ft. Worth. However, that devastation doesn't go as far north as Oklahoma City, or Wichita, or any of the cities of the Upper Plains. I can't recall if there's a black divot near Chicago or not. You'd have a lot of survivors there, as well as places like Africa.

I think there WOULD be folks who survived in fallout shelters ("Eight miles high and falling fast..."). However, they'd be the ones on the fringes of the devastation zones. Anyone living in Manhattan (or Houston) would be monoatomic dust. The saturation fire would provide no safe havens. However, out towards the edges, there'd be places near strikes, but far enough away to survive the explosion of soil and super-heated air.

You know, the more I ponder this, the more I think Phalanx and Mrs.Phalanx would be the two to talk to about the details.

I still think the cloning route is a the most viable route, instant well trained troops with superior 'soldier' DNA traits. Metal Gear style only with Roy Folker in place of Big Boss.

[Colonel Wolfe]

show me where it happened in the show... and id buy it...

New Portland, Reconstruction Blues

new portland... is not NEW YORK.....

[drewkitty ~..~]

The REEF mission was to set up colonies and find the RTM to make 'peace' with them. (okay okay I just read the flavor text so bear with me) So the mission's population would be under extreme pressure to have children just to fill out the ranks,down the line. Having depleted their ranks to set up those colonies. So it is probable that a large part of the mission personal were actually families working their transport to a new world and children. Also, the UEEF final counter attack was 20 years after the mission left, so the current 20-somethings were conceived at the start of the mission, before they made contact with the Regent's half of the Invid and the Tirolians that were left behind by the RTM.

Saying this, the REEF personal must be one of the most prolific at propagating, with the women bearing a child ever year and every other year. This would relegate most of the women to support positions, and banned from combat missions. Much like the US armed forces 15-20 years ago and before that. Even with this sort of regime, every person that came of age would have to be combat trained to fill in the ranks in pitched battles. Much like how the Israelis require every person of age to enlist in the military for national security.
This would barely fill the ranks with of age humans to mount the offensives in the flavor text. And that would be if they knew they would need the children to replace lost personal in such numbers in the 1st place.

However, if the UEEF used Tirolian cloning tech to make ether full grown or mostly full grown personal for replacements or recruit from the sentinel allies would ease the burden of filling out all the ranks with just humans. I can see them having an all (mostly) human attack force if the support forces were mostly sentinel races.

[Library Ogre]

Hmmm. Here's a bit of a thought. What if the UEEF didn't clone people, but instead used Zentraedi artificial wombs to make pregnancy easier on the mother? Do artificial insemination between willing couples (or even for singles willing singles, with donated ova and sperm), then raise the embryos in Zentraedi wombs until "birth", at which point they would be raised as normal children? It speeds up the reproduction time, removes the wear and tear on the mothers (meaning that even your fighter-pilot mothers can continue to function up until the baby is born), and increases the survival rate of healthy babies. Combine outside DNA from the Zentraedi and Tirolians, and you've got a fairly healthy baby boom.

And to the suggestion that I ask Phalanx and Mrs. Phalanx about this... Phalanx is easy. Mrs. Phalanx usually disappears when the house is due to become full of geekly meanderings.

[Colonel Wolfe]

show me where it happened in the show... and id buy it...

New Portland, Reconstruction Blues

new portland... is not NEW YORK.....

"I wouldn't be surprised if some of the world's most important cities were rebuilt after the RoD".

"show me where it happened in the show... and id buy it..."

The question was asked to to a comment about major cities being rebuilt. Just because others were rebuilt is not an indication that New York was.

Actually, my Reply was to his Claim that Cities were Rebuilt Stone-for-stone... but thanks for Mis-quoteing both parties.

and I wouldnt eaxctly call New Portland to be a Major city...

[Colonel Wolfe]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the world's most important cities were rebuilt after the RoD. Even if they were vaporized, faithful replicas could be constructed. After all, there's a lot of time between the 1st Robotech war and the invid invasion. Toss in the sheer speed with which the new technologies allow things to be built, ample raw materials in the form of downed Zent ships, hordes of 50' tall workers, and a populace eager to try and pretend like Earth had never been devastated and you might see the return of New York, Paris, London, Tokyo, etc. in an amazingly short amount of time.

Building on the sites of major cities would indeed be possible. Building exact replicas, not so much.

but didnt you just say in this very thread that "New portland" is proof of what he is saying???

yes you did:

"I wouldn't be surprised if some of the world's most important cities were rebuilt after the RoD".

"show me where it happened in the show... and id buy it..."

The question was asked to to a comment about major cities being rebuilt. Just because others were rebuilt is not an indication that New York was.

or were you looking to Disagree with me when i disagreed with his Idea that Cities were Rebuilt Stone-for-stone... Just like you are now?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Another personal boost might of come from zent fleets that were not in the grand fleet when it was defeated. Or from the other automated factories' defense fleets. If the they are contacted right they could be a big boost to the REEF. With them just cycling them through basic to train them up to REEF standards and to ease them through acculturation.

[Colonel Wolfe]

its Estimated 1 Million ships fought under Breetia's command against the grand-fleet... if a fraction fo them survived.. you have plenty of bodies... that once macironised would eventually adapt to human society. sure some of them went "Malcontent" with Khyron but not all of them... plenty of people for off-world colonies at least.

[Colonel Wolfe]

.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Another personal boost might of come from zent fleets that were not in the grand fleet when it was defeated. Or from the other automated factories' defense fleets. If the they are contacted right they could be a big boost to the UEEF. With them just cycling them through basic to train them up to UEEF standards and to ease them through acculturation.

Only thing I see that runs counter to this is the lack of evidence for mass absorption of Zentraedi into humanity’s ranks. Sure, I could see them being a core to the fighting forces, but I suspect that simply blending in with society and mating with humans would exceedingly rare. Max and Myria seemed to be the exception, not the rule.

In the RTSC book the stats, so far, for zentradiee are the same as those for humans and tirolians. This would imply ether full integration or a fully educated/socialized zent sector; In the UEEF. The civilian population of zentradiee would be small, except for those that have seen enough fighting and retire. But even these would be a fraction of the zent pop as a whole and would of spent enough time with humans to de-toxic from a fighting only mindset, so they less chance of becoming the hooligans that were at the core of the malcontent uprisings.

Yep there isn't much to go on, they could only fit so much into a manga sized book.

[Beatmeclever]

It is true Macross and Robotech are not the same and the two should not be compared. It is also true that the cities seen in the 3rd Gen would seem to point to the idea that some cities were not destroyed by the RoD. Denver, for one, does NOT look anything like the modern Denver, so I would say it was destroyed by the Zent attack on NORAD. More than likely, it was military targets hit by the RoD not administrative -- the UN would not have been targeted and the lack of major military sites in the NYC area would occlude it from targeting. (Although I fail to see why anyone would have re-built the WTC.)

It tagged a lot of them. Looking at the old RDF Field Manual, the devastation is pretty nasty...

I think it's all a matter of which perspective you're taking with the Rain of Death and whether you're taking into account the Colony concept which is a fairly new story addition (the 'old' Angel Class colony ships) to the Robotech Universe.

Previously there was no indication of human colonies on other worlds. It was all about the REF leaving with a large chunk of humans and Zentraedi and running parallel with the Masters Era. Then the Invid attack and wipe out the Earth's Military strength (I don't recall much talk of Human Genocide though) before the REF return.

The old RDF Manual isn't an official source and the show definitely has a fairly intact New York in the New Generation era.

For giggles (it's half time during the footy) I did a search for German Population estimates from 1939 to 1969 which is equivalent duration (30 years) to the Robotech War saga so far.
43,008,000 - 1939
61,194,600 - 1969

In 30 years the population grew by 50% in a single war affected country. It's not a perfect comparison (here's Japan's) but I guess what I'm trying to show is that if there are thriving colonies out there, not affected by war and allowed a couple of decades to get busy, the need for a cloning explanation is reduced.

If all colonists were issued with a prefab house, some tools and a Barry White discography, the Human race would be doing ooookay

I have to say that I like the idea that since some 33 years have passed since the RoD (2011, pg 61 RTSC:RPG) and the Pioneer Mission left in 2022 (eleven years after the RoD), there was plenty of time for at least one new generation to be born.

It wouldn't even take Barry White, just a level of social reconditioning. Like presenting the youth with the idea that they should desire to become adults so that they could assist in the spreading of the Human race to the stars. There after, if each generation was determined to become adults and aid in the war effort, they would join the military (or colonial militias) and have children ASAP to prove their adulthood. Topping that off, more than likely the legal marriage and enlistment ages would be lowered. Making the liklihood of a large populace even better.

To add to the numbers in the military, just think about it, what jobs are there for most people. The military is probably a large part of the re-building process and so most jobs are at least military related (since it was the population of Macross City and the military on the SDF-1 that survived to take control of the planet after the RoD). Therefore, the military would be the most likely career choice for most people. The length of enlistment would probably vary from 2 to 8 year stints with the option for early release on the successful completion of a colony and another option for the retention of troops in the case of military conflict.

Using the idea presented above if the population of the Earth at the end of the 1st War was 1.8 Billion, then the population is now 2.7 billion if the enlistment were simply 4.5% the number of troops would be 121,500,000. Make it closer to 50% and you have a military force unlike anything ever seen on Earth -- 900 million strong! That should be more than enough soldiers to fill both combat AND administration roles.

Humans tend to be mildly Xenophobic so I would say that you are right about the humans not interbreeding with the Zents right away, but after 20 years or so, you'd see more of it due to familiarity. As for cloning, I do not think that anyone would have been allowed to begin such a high level so soon after the "War" with the Robotech Masters (more than likely, the people of Earth would be revolted by the act).

I hope that everyone can see that the human race would be more than adequate in the replenishment of its ranks within a very short period of time.

[Colonel Wolfe]

(Although I fail to see why anyone would have re-built the WTC.)

The World Trade Centers werent rebuilt in Robotech as they were never Dectroyed. the SDF-1 Crashed well before the Destruction of the WTC's towers, i doubt the Time line should hold much similarity beyond 1999.
(or 1985 for that matters)

I've heard the "Denver" being taken as Scott is not actually in Denver, they find an Evac order for Denver and he assumed the City was Denver... him being form off world makes me question him knowing a city he's never been in before...

[taalismn]

..Gives them a false sense of continuity, right.....
After all, look how many times Macross City is rebuilt...

[taalismn]

After all, look how many times Macross City is rebuilt...

Complete with hastily repaired wall in Minmei's bedroom from where Rick crashed his VT. Just in case she needed to return to reminisce

Plaque on Door: "Rick Hunter Crashed Here"

[drewkitty ~..~]

In the RT:S the SDF-3 has a crew listing of just under 14,000, and figure in that the total complement marines & other passengers is double that, it comes to 28,000. (note: the RT:S book lists the Zent complement just over 1000, is going to ignore that for this post and have the zents on their own ships.) So figure it has life support for double that for population expansion (aka kids). If the zents take their own rides that 28000 would be mostly humans. If they could refit even one Zent landing craft hangers for micronien use, that would add room for 100,000 miconians, zent or human colonial pop. per ship (conservative estimate).
Estimating 10 colonies to set up, with 50,000 each, then you'd need 5 converted landing ships as transports and an equal amount as equipment colliers. If you want your colonies to be up and running asap, then you need pre-made production plants, factory ship that you can just land and bamf, industrial base. Even if you just landed a scout ship per nodal settlement as a power plant, that would speed things up dramatically
So that is 1 landing ship and maybe two or three scout ships per colony. And some sort of patrol ship.
that would end up as 40 ships just for the colonies, and if they took along two or three of the fleet flagships as back up for the sdf-3. I can begin to understand why Gen. Leonard was ***** about how the Expeditionary mission was bleeding earth dry of resources.

So our little expedition tops out with 42-45 ships, all at least refitted, fixed and one built.
123,120 full sized zents to run the colony ships and two fully crewed and armed Fleet Flagship escorts.
500,000 colonists.
28000 riding in the sdf-3
That comes out to 651,120 warm bodies.
Not to mention the matériel support they are taking with them

[glitterboy2098]

your probably right. given the number of ships they had, and the fact they expected little resistance based on Breetai's reports about the level of terran tech, they probably didn't feel the need.

alternatively, they could have been following "the book", and using a pre-determained firing pattern, aiming at no particular place specifically. instead a pattern of hits that allowed them to fire one barrage, then fire later barrages, with the rotation of the planet allowing the pattern to eventually glass the whole surface.

[Yendor]

Well, if you go with the original Macross (the one Robotech is based on), they used mass cloning to repopulate the Earth after the ZGA, and kept using it until about 2030 or 2040, when they discovered mass cloning like that leads to problems (enough clones, by 2030 or 2040, can't remember which, developed medical problems, leading to the discontinue of the practice). Of course, they used this to spread out in colonies as well, providing lots of manpower to draw upon.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Well, if you go with the original Macross (the one Robotech is based on),

Except we shouldn't, since Robnotech is not Macross... nor is Robotech Based on Macross alone. I dont see any Cloneing in the 2030's during the 2nd story arc, except maybe the Clones they encounter on the Robotech Masters ships.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Does this take into account the Angel-Class colony ships and the years between the SDF-2's destruction and the SDF-3's launch?

Are they mentioned an the book?
No, that was just something I pulled together last night using the PB RT books.

Well, if you go with the original Macross (the one Robotech is based on),

Except we shouldn't, since Robotech is not Macross... nor is Robotech Based on Macross alone. I don't see any Cloning in the 2030's during the 2nd story arc, except maybe the Clones they encounter on the Robotech Masters ships.

CW is right in the sense that we should base things that happened after the fact in the Macross, to give legitimacy to things in RT after the end of the macross saga. You can only use them as a reflection to illuminate a point, not to support a point.

The UEEF and the UE didn't have access to Tirolian cloning tech till each encountered the Tirolians and masters respectively.

Just though of something. They never say what happens after Zor crashed the RTM's flagship. Where did the other ships go? Back to tirol? I doubt they just landed and surrendered.

[taalismn]

Well...in the Palladium setting, at least one drops into south-east asia...
The Robotech Compendium has another crashing into the ocean off Scandanavia...

Frankly, I believe that the Masters stuffed their own ship with the best they had left(including energy reserves), and sent the others off on one-way suicide missions to draw the ASC's fleet fire, and that the Motherships involved got cut to pieces both from lack of power, undermanning, and lack of adequate shielding(essentially, if you're a Southern Cross spacefleet crew, having seen your fellow fleeters cut to pieces in previous battles with teh Motherships, and now suddenly you see a gap in their shields or detect a weakness in their point defense coverage, you're not going to ask 'Maybe they'd like to surrender now?' or 'maybe we can lay off them and concentrate on another ship thst needs hitting?'...no, you're going to lob in every nuke your ship has available and blow the sucker up.).

[taalismn]

Agreed...not all the clones just docily gave up and allowed themselves to be targets...some discovered rather intense senses of self-preservation, and others just went psychotic...either way; desperate aliens +high tech weapons= no easy mop-up...

[Yendor]

Well, you have to take into account that the Robotech we know, stems from Macross (the original), and 2 other animes (can't recall the original name for Southern Cross, but the Invid Invasion comes from Mospeada Climber or something like that), so it's kind of hard to come up with things that fit when you're slapping together 3 different shows into one series (let alone the fact the original Southern Cross takes place on a colony world, and the Masters are just former colonists coming back after having fled a world disaster, and Mospeada takes place in the 2080s). Note though, I still love all the Robotech series (just saying before anyone jumps on the 'you just don't like it' wagon )

Technically, it goes:
Robotech (the one we know and love) to Shadow Chronicles, with nothing in between, since Southern Cross and Invid Invasion are different animes.

But, if you want to go with a logical fit to the cloning part, you can always say that when the UEEF liberated Tirol, they had the Robotech Masters' facilities, which enabled them to make clones, and that said clones are where the majority of personnel come from (especially if you consider the origins of "Born in deep space"). In desperate times, and if possible, I think a fleet of clones would be acceptable, plus, former Zentraedi and Tyrolian citizens, now free of the Robotech Masters' influence, would help bolster the forces of the UEEF.

[The Artist Formerly]

Well from my perspective, the trick isn't having the RDF/UEG building and manufacturing billions of clones to repoulatet the earth, it's use them to subtlely increase the population with clone tech DNA improvements and then introducing those clones into the population at various points to improve the over all level of human ability, across the board. Of course you want some Roy Folker clones in your fighter pilot program, but you also want some stock humans who work military support services or even aren't part of the military, who's job it is to have a happy life, support RDF values, work, pay taxes and have children. This allows for some vote rigging among those states where the UEG's support is slipping, refills the human populace a fair bit, and provides labor resources for the UEG.

It's always been one of my pet theories anyway. I don't think that the robotech writers ever really gave much thought to these things as the heroes always have 'enough to get through to the next episode' and the villians sufficent resources to be a credible threat.

[Beatmeclever]

(Although I fail to see why anyone would have re-built the WTC.)

The World Trade Centers werent rebuilt in Robotech as they were never Dectroyed. the SDF-1 Crashed well before the Destruction of the WTC's towers, i doubt the Time line should hold much similarity beyond 1999.
(or 1985 for that matters)

I stand corrected; you are correct.

I've heard the "Denver" being taken as Scott is not actually in Denver, they find an Evac order for Denver and he assumed the City was Denver... him being form off world makes me question him knowing a city he's never been in before...

Just an observation on my part. There is NO proof either idea is right in the episode other than Scott saying it. "If it isn't in the show..."

On the topic of rebuilding old cities, I agree that it is not the issue here and see it as hereafter dropped from my discussion points.

It is true Macross and Robotech are not the same and the two should not be compared. It is also true that the cities seen in the 3rd Gen would seem to point to the idea that some cities were not destroyed by the RoD. Denver, for one, does NOT look anything like the modern Denver, so I would say it was destroyed by the Zent attack on NORAD. More than likely, it was military targets hit by the RoD not administrative -- the UN would not have been targeted and the lack of major military sites in the NYC area would occlude it from targeting.

You know, I personally don't think the Zentraedi assault was all that "targeted". I suspect they surround the Earth and perhaps each ship had a sector to bombard. I don't think they had pre-planned targets, like military sites and the like.

your probably right. given the number of ships they had, and the fact they expected little resistance based on Breetai's reports about the level of terran tech, they probably didn't feel the need.

alternatively, they could have been following "the book", and using a pre-determained firing pattern, aiming at no particular place specifically. instead a pattern of hits that allowed them to fire one barrage, then fire later barrages, with the rotation of the planet allowing the pattern to eventually glass the whole surface.

Why would the Zentraedi blindly bombard a planetary surface if it stands the chance of missing large sections or even whole regions of that surface? Any intelligent assault (and we have to assume that a race of soldiers will engage in war intelligently) on a planet is going to focus primarily on targets of military value as those locations have the power to resist and counter-attack. They would, therefore, be targeted first followed by the targeting of infrastructure and administrative positions if the initial removal of the enemy's ability to make war did not stem the aggressive nature of the opponent. We can see, by the existence of plants on the surface of the Earth, in the series that the RoD did NOT

...glass the whole surface.

And I agree that we do not see the effects of any kind of "nuclear winter" in the series, so that idea MUST be taken with a grain of salt.

Well, you have to take into account that the Robotech we know, stems from Macross (the original), and 2 other animes (can't recall the original name for Southern Cross, but the Invid Invasion comes from Mospeada Climber or something like that), so it's kind of hard to come up with things that fit when you're slapping together 3 different shows into one series (let alone the fact the original Southern Cross takes place on a colony world, and the Masters are just former colonists coming back after having fled a world disaster, and Mospeada takes place in the 2080s). Note though, I still love all the Robotech series (just saying before anyone jumps on the 'you just don't like it' wagon )

Technically, it goes:
Robotech (the one we know and love) to Shadow Chronicles, with nothing in between, since Southern Cross and Invid Invasion are different animes.

But, if you want to go with a logical fit to the cloning part, you can always say that when the UEEF liberated Tirol, they had the Robotech Masters' facilities, which enabled them to make clones, and that said clones are where the majority of personnel come from (especially if you consider the origins of "Born in deep space"). In desperate times, and if possible, I think a fleet of clones would be acceptable, plus, former Zentraedi and Tyrolian citizens, now free of the Robotech Masters' influence, would help bolster the forces of the UEEF.

WRONG!!! Robotech (although made from the amalgamation of three unrelated animes) is one series consisting of three generations, NOT Macross redux and two other unrelated stories! Macross was the base anime from which the story of the first generation was drawn, but the two stories ARE NOT the same there are major differences between the two. Super Dimensional Cavalry: Southern Cross is the second gen and MOSPEADA the third. All story elements MUST be accounted for to make a solid theory regarding ANY ideas about Robotech! You CANNOT discount any of the generations in your analysis.

So TECHNICALLY, it goes: Robotech (the one we know and love) of which the Macross Saga, Southern Cross, Invid Invasion, AND Shadow Chronicles are ALL a single and complete (future follow-ons not withstanding) story.

Well from my perspective, the trick isn't having the RDF/UEG building and manufacturing billions of clones to repoulatet the earth, it's use them to subtlely increase the population with clone tech DNA improvements and then introducing those clones into the population at various points to improve the over all level of human ability, across the board. Of course you want some Roy Folker clones in your fighter pilot program, but you also want some stock humans who work military support services or even aren't part of the military, who's job it is to have a happy life, support RDF values, work, pay taxes and have children. This allows for some vote rigging among those states where the UEG's support is slipping, refills the human populace a fair bit, and provides labor resources for the UEG.

It's always been one of my pet theories anyway. I don't think that the robotech writers ever really gave much thought to these things as the heroes always have 'enough to get through to the next episode' and the villians sufficent resources to be a credible threat.

To this, I stand by my earlier statement:

Humans tend to be mildly Xenophobic so I would say that you are right about the humans not interbreeding with the Zents right away, but after 20 years or so, you'd see more of it due to familiarity. As for cloning, I do not think that anyone would have been allowed to begin such a high level so soon after the "War" with the Robotech Masters (more than likely, the people of Earth would be revolted by the act).

And I will once again point back to my earlier words for how it could have been done without cloning:

...just a level of social reconditioning. Like presenting the youth with the idea that they should desire to become adults so that they could assist in the spreading of the Human race to the stars. There after, if each generation was determined to become adults and aid in the war effort, they would join the military (or colonial militias) and have children ASAP to prove their adulthood. Topping that off, more than likely the legal marriage and enlistment ages would be lowered. Making the liklihood of a large populace even better.

To add to the numbers in the military, just think about it, what jobs are there for most people. The military is probably a large part of the re-building process and so most jobs are at least military related (since it was the population of Macross City and the military on the SDF-1 that survived to take control of the planet after the RoD). THE MILITARY IS THE ONLY JOB THAT IS REALLY LEFT FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON! Therefore, the military would be the most likely career choice for most people. The length of enlistment would probably vary from 2 to 8 year stints with the option for early release on the successful completion of a colony and another option for the retention of troops in the case of military conflict.

Now I hope that everyone can see that the human race would be more than adequate in the replenishment of its ranks within a very short period of time.

Edit in bold.

[Yendor]

As beatmeclever said:
WRONG!!! Robotech (although made from the amalgamation of three unrelated animes) is one series consisting of three generations, NOT Macross redux and two other unrelated stories! Macross was the base anime from which the story of the first generation was drawn, but the two stories ARE NOT the same there are major differences between the two. Super Dimensional Cavalry: Southern Cross is the second gen and MOSPEADA the third. All story elements MUST be accounted for to make a solid theory regarding ANY ideas about Robotech! You CANNOT discount any of the generations in your analysis.

So TECHNICALLY, it goes: Robotech (the one we know and love) of which the Macross Saga, Southern Cross, Invid Invasion, AND Shadow Chronicles are ALL a single and complete (future follow-ons not withstanding) story.

Ok, you are correct, I looked up the story behind Mospeada and Super Dimension Calvary Southern Cross, though the point of being correct/wrong skews off of SDCSC (takes place on a colony world named Glori, not Earth). Though everyone has to admit, trying to sync up Robotech the RPG with Robotech the animated series, let alone the ret-con being done with Shadow Chronicles (let alone repopulation) = lots of odd views/results.

[Yendor]

Though everyone has to admit, trying to sync up Robotech the RPG with Robotech the animated series, let alone the ret-con being done with Shadow Chronicles (let alone repopulation) = lots of odd views/results.

Heh although this is for another topic.

Syncing up RT the RPG (1st Edition) isn't really a problem since it's been recognised as not following the new Robotech story path. So if you're using any of the old books as a guide, you should know you're playing in an old sandpit that has been left to grow over with grass.
It's this new sandpit that has concepts like human colonies and a mystery UEEF period that used to be taken up by the Sentinels saga. How that new, Sentinels era, story plays out is yet to be seen and could account for the population numbers for which you're having trouble reconciling (wow, I did get back on topic).

There isn't any retconning being done in the Shadow Chronicles. The first half of the movie simply shows different perspectives of the same battle. There is a clip out there in the WWW showing how Eps 84, 85 and tSC fit together without a worry.

True, but throwing in Shadow Chronicles and saying the previous series (both RPG and animated) is old/no longer used, means they are rewriting the past, to a certain extent. But yeah, not knowing how The Sentinels played out is a wild card.

As for the human numbers, well, it's hard to pick up the reason why/how they have so many because the entire series was hastily thrown together to make it fit, let alone throwing Shadow Chronicles on to the top of the pile and saying "This is the new beginning...until we make new prequels."

[drewkitty ~..~]

Super-Dimensional Fortress Macross.....RT Macross saga
Super-Dimensional Cavalry Southern cross....RT Masters
Genesis Climber Mospeada.....RT New gen.
RT sentinels HG OVA only ep 1 completed
RT:SC HG OVA movie

Those are all the animation series that comprise the RT series.
SDCSC was a part of the Super-Dimension waves of shows along with SDFM. None of the shows had any relation to each other story/setting wise. Even if some of the animators were the same. I mention that because there are some joke cameo appearances of (SD Century) Orguss like mecha in SDFM.

And thou I've never seen it, the RT movie is suppose to have been made from the OVA series "MegaZone 23". Not sure which of the four parts they used, but the artwork in Wikipidia is from part 1.

[Beatmeclever]

Why would the Zentraedi blindly bombard a planetary surface if it stands the chance of missing large sections or even whole regions of that surface? Any intelligent assault (and we have to assume that a race of soldiers will engage in war intelligently) on a planet is going to focus primarily on targets of military value as those locations have the power to resist and counter-attack. They would, therefore, be targeted first followed by the targeting of infrastructure and administrative positions if the initial removal of the enemy's ability to make war did not stem the aggressive nature of the opponent. We can see, by the existence of plants on the surface of the Earth, in the series that the RoD did NOT

Of course, the biggest counter to this idea is the fact that the Grand Cannon, the biggest military threat, wasn’t targeted first. Also, the Zentraedi, under Dolza, weren’t trying to cripple the military of the Earth, they were obliterating it.

Additionally, “plants” don’t support what you imply. It simply shows the RoD wasn’t 100% complete, something we already know. Large tracts of wastelands, apparently not in urban centers or the like, would seem to imply a general bombardment.

All I was trying to imply with the "plants" was that the bombardment did not "glass the surface" as was said to be the end result of a properly executed orbital bombardment according to GB.

You are, however, correct that plants alone don't support the focused targeting of military targets first, but you cannot disprove it either as in the show it is never said how the assault is or is not targeted. Dolza does intend to obliterate all life on the planet, but my description was simply a combative power first bombardment plan. After all, there is no reason to fire your first volley only to find that your enemy has mounted a counter-attack while your batteries recharge for your second volley. This is what is never seen in the series -- the plan of attack. Any ideas on the subject (mine included) are mere speculation.

As for the large tracts of wasteland, it cannot be proven that those weren't the locations of cities, military bases, or anything else for that matter. As to the Grand Cannon, it was a secret weapon built beneath the North American Headquarters of the RDF, the location of which may or may not have been known by the Zentraedi before it fired. IIRC, the cannon only fires once before it is targeted and destroyed.

Though everyone has to admit, trying to sync up Robotech the RPG with Robotech the animated series, let alone the ret-con being done with Shadow Chronicles (let alone repopulation) = lots of odd views/results.

Heh although this is for another topic.

Syncing up RT the RPG (1st Edition) isn't really a problem since it's been recognised as not following the new Robotech story path. So if you're using any of the old books as a guide, you should know you're playing in an old sandpit that has been left to grow over with grass.
It's this new sandpit that has concepts like human colonies and a mystery UEEF period that used to be taken up by the Sentinels saga. How that new, Sentinels era, story plays out is yet to be seen and could account for the population numbers for which you're having trouble reconciling (wow, I did get back on topic).

There isn't any retconning being done in the Shadow Chronicles. The first half of the movie simply shows different perspectives of the same battle. There is a clip out there in the WWW showing how Eps 84, 85 and tSC fit together without a worry.

True, but throwing in Shadow Chronicles and saying the previous series (both RPG and animated) is old/no longer used, means they are rewriting the past, to a certain extent. But yeah, not knowing how The Sentinels played out is a wild card.

As for the human numbers, well, it's hard to pick up the reason why/how they have so many because the entire series was hastily thrown together to make it fit, let alone throwing Shadow Chronicles on to the top of the pile and saying "This is the new beginning...until we make new prequels."

None the less, if you are the GM, just pick the means by which the human race manages to remain a powerful combat force and use that in your games. Who really care if it matches what some other Bozo thinks? Still it is fun to try to figure out where the inconsistencies are and see if they can be made into a good story.

[Beatmeclever]

You are, however, correct that plants alone don't support the focused targeting of military targets first, but you cannot disprove it either as in the show it is never said how the assault is or is not targeted.

Well, do we see any "military targets" specifically targeted in the first volleys? The only "military target" I recall being specifically targeted was the Grand Cannon, after it fired. We certainly see non-military targets struck in the first volleys as cities are obliterated.

Dolza does intend to obliterate all life on the planet, but my description was simply a combative power first bombardment plan. After all, there is no reason to fire your first volley only to find that your enemy has mounted a counter-attack while your batteries recharge for your second volley. This is what is never seen in the series -- the plan of attack. Any ideas on the subject (mine included) are mere speculation.

Again, the Grand Canon, Earth's best defensive weapon wasn't attacked first.

As to the Grand Cannon, it was a secret weapon built beneath the North American Headquarters of the RDF, the location of which may or may not have been known by the Zentraedi before it fired. IIRC, the cannon only fires once before it is targeted and destroyed.

Why would the Zentraedi know about all the other defenses and not this one or know about it and not attack it? What makes you think the Zentraedi had detailed plans/locations of the remaining Earth defenses?

Again, you are correct, as I said, we do not know at what the initial volley was targeted -- military or general "shoot the planet." However, we don't know which cities we see being struck, we just see cities. Are we seeing Washington DC (home of the Penatgon), Denver (home of four military installations of value), Colorado Springs (home of NORAD and three other military installations of value), Pensacola (home of the SOCOM), Tokyo (home of Yakota Air Force Base), etc.? NO!? We do not and cannot know what Dolza's initial volley was to accomplish.

I would say, with regards to the Grand Cannon, that it is said multiple times that the location of the cannon is top secret and almost no one on Earth knows it is there. As for how the Zents would know where the other military installations are, It isn't that hard for a trained intelligence officer to tell the difference between a civilian and military installation (even from orbit) -- it has to do with the types of equipment in use.

As I said, it is ALL just speculation anyway.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip..

I would say, with regards to the Grand Cannon, that it is said multiple times that the location of the cannon is top secret and almost no one on Earth knows it is there. As for how the Zents would know where the other military installations are, It isn't that hard for a trained intelligence officer to tell the difference between a civilian and military installation (even from orbit) -- it has to do with the types of equipment in use.

Dolza’s fleet was in orbit for a limited amount of time prior to the bombardment. Again, you propose a scenario where the Zentraedi deciphered the Earth’s entire defense, except for one small weapon installation (well not so small). It simply doesn’t make sense.

Time, that is the question...
the zentradie are more reliant on their computers then any human ship would, so the ship's computers could of been feeding targeting data to each gunner. That initial targeting data would of been just the visible evidence of a population. That would be why most of the RoD hit cities. that right there says to me that none of the zent ship have a data link to share data, otherwise the damage would of been less concentrated on large pop centers. If there had been a 2nd wave, the smaller towns and hamlets would of been targeted, because the zent's targeting comps would of had more time to recognize other places as targets.
Alaska base was caught up in the initial bombardment with out any special priority. it was only after it fire did it receive more attacks.

[Yendor]

To summarise:
IN: 85 Episodes of 80s Americanised Japanimation and 1 direct to DVD movie = Robotech Saga. There are a few comics that expand that universe published by Wildstorm Comics. And the 2nd Edition Robotech RPG is playing in this pool also. I guess Robotech: Battlecry and Invasion console games also dally in that universe.

Out: Any non-Wildstorm comic, the original RPG, the Novels, the fansites, Robotech: The Movie, Robotech II: the Sentinels.

Based on this information, I'm not sure where you're coming from with the human population topic.
The Robotech timeline consists of 2 major battles lasting 18 months and an alien occupation lasting 15 years. There's plenty of time in there for millions of surviving humans to pony up a considerable military force. There would just be less unemployment, because every biped and their pollinator would be colonising worlds or otherwise aiding in maintaining a military space fleet.

Hope that info helps.

It does, but my point was that it's hard to pin point exact human numbers because we have conflicting accounts throughout just the series, let alone referring to the RPG, comics, novels, etc. Although quite good, what is Robotech is a series thrown together from 3 different anime produced by the same company (taking Southern Cross, which took place on an alien planet, not Earth, and editing it to fit as 2nd generation Robotech, let alone 2080s Mospeada to fit 2044 3rd Generation, is going to, and has, produced numerous glitches and conflicting statements).

But, as was said earlier, it is fun discussing it, and whatever works for one person in their campaign is fine, it's their campaign after all.

[Protoculture]

Where do all the humans come from?

For UEEF manpower up to 2044 should be:

1. From Terran & integrated micronised Zent colonists that made up the Gloval Initiative Plan 2014 which marks massive colonisation mission (there's a lot of Angel-class colony vessel hulls in storage & converted into NS missile chassis aboard Space Station Liberty) from 2015 until perhaps up to 2025. Surviving Sol-System colonies like Mars are properous & able enough to send atleast two Earth Reclaimation missions against Invid Regess on Earth (10th Mars Division in 2038 & 21st Mars Division in 2042).

2. The Tyrolians. By this I'm not limiting it to the Masters' surviving clone refugees, but the Tyrolean native inhabitants, which post EF liberation of Tyrol from Invid Regent should number much like Earth's post Rain of Death population, more than enough to integrate or assimilating other UEEF colonists (most probably & obviously, micronised Zents) & providing additional manpower to UEEF.

3. The Praxians. For all purposes, the space amazons are still humans, perhaps an off-shoot of Masters race for all we know. Given those chicks never lay eyes to human / Tyrolean / micronised Zent males, opportunity abounds as Praxis is liberated. One can guess, another sexu... uhhh ... cultural revolution is underway that may transformed the very fabric of Praxian society. Being a UEEF male GI Joes & get to be send to Praxis as part of Sentinel garrison units gonna be heaven.