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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:35 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 306
First of all my thanks to Scott for not only providing updates for the RTT KS community but keeping to his word about these being regular. This is refreshing , as it is welcome. sadly the updates themselves although written more profesiionally cannot hide the truth Wave 2 is unlikley to be completed this year and if it is mid 2018, as a UK backer will likely only just see it just beforethat years end.

However these updates do mean that there are some rather damning questions to be answered by the Palladium management team in respect of what they had been doing to complete this project.

Wave One was produced in mid 2013 and the indications were that wave 2 would be following shortly. The reason for the split given by PB themselves was to get some product into the hands of backers rather thn wait until everything was done. The clear suggestion here was that a manufacturer had been paid, factorytime made available and so 2014 would see this completed.......

What happenned, if everything was set up why did it not happen, noone at PB has ever explained this?

Next after another long empty year, distinct rumbles of displeasure were being voiced on the KS Comments and accusations (often very vitriolic) were being posted against PB. The response in update 186, in black and white from Kevin himself was that there was no need to worry as all of wave two was in China being tooled and engineered.

Again what happenned, either this was a blatant lie by Kevin or there were serious issues, presumably costing PB a chunk of KS funding?

We move through 2015 and then at the end of 2016 we are told yet again not to worry because PB are actively sourcing quotes from manufacturers.

Sidle forward six months and still nothing, but Scott says there are promising leads. Alas these come to nothing and 2017 is a washout - to be fair at least Scott told us.

At this point it seems only fair that someone at Palladium sits down and details exactly what happennd between the manufacture of WAve One (2013) and mid 2017 - we sort of know what is currently going on. If nothing else it go a long way to stifling some of the wilder speculation about the financial standing of this project and might even garner some support - if it is honest and avoids scapegoating.

Is there anyone at Palladium who is prepared to stand up, put their hand in the air and take the blame for the excessive delay in fulfilling the enthusiastic promises of 2012?


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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:04 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:14 pm
Posts: 9290
Location: Northwood, ND
wilycoyote wrote:
First of all my thanks to Scott for not only providing updates for the RTT KS community but keeping to his word about these being regular. This is refreshing , as it is welcome. sadly the updates themselves although written more profesiionally cannot hide the truth Wave 2 is unlikley to be completed this year and if it is mid 2018, as a UK backer will likely only just see it just beforethat years end.

However these updates do mean that there are some rather damning questions to be answered by the Palladium management team in respect of what they had been doing to complete this project.

Wave One was produced in mid 2013 and the indications were that wave 2 would be following shortly. The reason for the split given by PB themselves was to get some product into the hands of backers rather thn wait until everything was done. The clear suggestion here was that a manufacturer had been paid, factorytime made available and so 2014 would see this completed.......

What happenned, if everything was set up why did it not happen, noone at PB has ever explained this?

Next after another long empty year, distinct rumbles of displeasure were being voiced on the KS Comments and accusations (often very vitriolic) were being posted against PB. The response in update 186, in black and white from Kevin himself was that there was no need to worry as all of wave two was in China being tooled and engineered.

Again what happenned, either this was a blatant lie by Kevin or there were serious issues, presumably costing PB a chunk of KS funding?

We move through 2015 and then at the end of 2016 we are told yet again not to worry because PB are actively sourcing quotes from manufacturers.

Sidle forward six months and still nothing, but Scott says there are promising leads. Alas these come to nothing and 2017 is a washout - to be fair at least Scott told us.

At this point it seems only fair that someone at Palladium sits down and details exactly what happennd between the manufacture of WAve One (2013) and mid 2017 - we sort of know what is currently going on. If nothing else it go a long way to stifling some of the wilder speculation about the financial standing of this project and might even garner some support - if it is honest and avoids scapegoating.

Is there anyone at Palladium who is prepared to stand up, put their hand in the air and take the blame for the excessive delay in fulfilling the enthusiastic promises of 2012?


I'm all for that. And I'll be honest here also. I'm REALLY tempted to ask that question at the next OH. I also won't be surprised if several people are thinking the some thing. If they made a mistake, they should just say so. BTW, I was one of that last people that defended them on this issue. But even I gave up on it.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:13 pm
  

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Explorer

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:23 am
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It would be nice for someone at Palladium Books to state the obvious and admit they mishandled this project. Own up to it and publically apologize.

If that ever happens I'd be surprised. And even if they did, all that would follow that statement would be more questions as to the how they mishandled the project... People would ask for specifics... Which they'll never answer. And so there are good reasons from a business standpoint, to remain mute on the topic. It would stir a pot on something which is already overcooked. (or boiling?)

What's clear is that the company is willing to put the hand out for money to fund this project, but not interested in being transparent to the folks that put their money up. That's their choice, and from here on out people need to decide if that behavior is acceptable... To give the company the business or not.

I avoided this trainwreck cause my experience with this company suggested they wouldn't be able (my opinion) to handle the level of transparency that I like with KS projects I back. But, I couldn't convince all my friends to not back and so some of them are rightfully ticked... Most have moved on. But these guys were staunch purchasers of Palladium Books products and (as far as I know) have either written off the company completely... or in the least refuse to purchase anything with their name on it until they get there wave two rewards...

When a company does a Kickstarter and mismanages it, its up to each individual to decide to give this company any further business.

You may not guess it, but I love and route for this company but this time they have made a big mistake with the handling of this project.

Scott works for Palladium and admits that he has to earn (the backers) your trust... Then updates it with one render... When Palladium has stated repeatedly that all are done... Way to earn that trust... I guess at least they'll have something to stretch out until... forever... They should Title this game Kickstarter Failure Tactics... In my opinion that'd be closer to the truth.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:41 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 306
One point to be made is that the RTT kickstater was pushed as Ninja division handling the miniatures , rules and generally getting on with the job while Palladium effectively took a back seat.

This was a big deciding factor for people to take the plunge - as well as nostalgia - and invesy a lot in this project, notwithstanding their inate mistrust of Palladium keeping to a schedule.

Indeed if you look at most if not all of the promotional vids etc they are fronted by John candice and nor kevin or Waynes.

Deleyed though it was Wave One was completed, but then it seems Ninja Div, moved on for reasons that will lilely never be fully disclosed and Palladium took over. It is from that point onwards that the slide into the mess we havenow began.

Sadly the only discernable effort infinishing this, has been in avoiding the hard decisions. Therefore this being so, the lazy defence of "oh it's PB, you should have known it would take years" is is very flimsy and cannot excuse what has amounted to farcical mismanagement.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:12 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:38 pm
Posts: 237
wilycoyote wrote:
Deleyed though it was Wave One was completed, but then it seems Ninja Div, moved on for reasons that will lilely never be fully disclosed and Palladium took over. It is from that point onwards that the slide into the mess we havenow began.

Sadly the only discernable effort infinishing this, has been in avoiding the hard decisions. Therefore this being so, the lazy defence of "oh it's PB, you should have known it would take years" is is very flimsy and cannot excuse what has amounted to farcical mismanagement.

Yeah, that excuse rings hollow when you have Kevin saying in an interview published DURING the funding, that it'd be Ninja Division doing all the heavy lifting.

Quote:
Siembieda: Palladium Books is the license holder, publisher, and design partner. We provide creative input, suggestions, and make all the final approvals. Palladium's team is also contributing to the writing and editing of the rule book, but it is Ninja Division in the trenches making it all come to life: sculpts, art, packaging, rules development, playtesting, etc.

From the start I gave Ninja Division the lead in the creative design and development of Robotech RPG Tactics. Ninja Division's people are doing all the sculpts, artwork, and most of the development for this product. They have also designed and managed the Kickstarter. Ninja Division will also be managing the manufacturing for us.


Now it's clear things have changed. But we don't why, and expecting that to have happened, to have "should have known", is asking a bit much of people's foresight.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:12 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:14 pm
Posts: 9290
Location: Northwood, ND
Morgan Vening wrote:
wilycoyote wrote:
Deleyed though it was Wave One was completed, but then it seems Ninja Div, moved on for reasons that will lilely never be fully disclosed and Palladium took over. It is from that point onwards that the slide into the mess we havenow began.

Sadly the only discernable effort infinishing this, has been in avoiding the hard decisions. Therefore this being so, the lazy defence of "oh it's PB, you should have known it would take years" is is very flimsy and cannot excuse what has amounted to farcical mismanagement.

Yeah, that excuse rings hollow when you have Kevin saying in an interview published DURING the funding, that it'd be Ninja Division doing all the heavy lifting.

Quote:
Siembieda: Palladium Books is the license holder, publisher, and design partner. We provide creative input, suggestions, and make all the final approvals. Palladium's team is also contributing to the writing and editing of the rule book, but it is Ninja Division in the trenches making it all come to life: sculpts, art, packaging, rules development, playtesting, etc.

From the start I gave Ninja Division the lead in the creative design and development of Robotech RPG Tactics. Ninja Division's people are doing all the sculpts, artwork, and most of the development for this product. They have also designed and managed the Kickstarter. Ninja Division will also be managing the manufacturing for us.


Now it's clear things have changed. But we don't why, and expecting that to have happened, to have "should have known", is asking a bit much of people's foresight.


Ya, I wonder what happen? I just got the feeling it might have been bad.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:29 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 306
Okay left it a few weeks to see how things were developing under the new "business" manager, sadly it is a case of same old same old.

The latest update is a case in point, it updates us very little on the core issue, the quotes/manufacturing. This is the only thing that really matters to backers, that is when are we going to get our models for wave 2?

Fair enough the resin /rewards are mentioned but after four years all that can be shown are a few renders of custom bases that looked like they had been cooked up a few days earlier - as well as being techno bland to say the least. After this length of time you still cannot show Rik, Roy, Miryna or Khyron, nevermind the resin objective tokens/miniatures. Then you wonder at the negativity to which the update was treated?

Stepping back, you have now confirmed we will get nothing in 2017 - despite the profuse promises made by Kevin at the end of 2016 - 2017 the year of RTT? So what are you doing to persuade the backers that you are taking this seriously enough to make them even part believe 2018 will be anything different. 12 months of asking for quotes and then sitting on them is certainly not the answer.

Going by Wave1 if you signed now and started the process as a non US backer I might see something late second quarter 2018, but as we move closer to year end and then Chinese New Year that rapidly goes out to q4 or even 2019.

Even considering that 2018, will be far too long to have waited for a miniatures project that was originally hyped as 98% done - later excuses not withstanding that was what you sold everyone on - so even more than ever you as a company hasve to come clean and be honesy with people who put money and a lot of faith in you to deliver.

I am not trying to troll , but the continued relaxed high handed approach to resolving this does lead to frustration and of course anger


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:11 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:38 pm
Posts: 237
The problem seems to be not wanting to give out any details, when a few details could help to allay fears.

Obviously some things should be kept secret, and others could at least be argued as such.

But in Scott's first Update (June 21st), he mentions a phone call after the initial quote on the Friday before (June 16th), to hammer out details.
In his second Update, he mentions continuing talks, as well as opening up new channels to ten other manufacturers.
In his third Update, he mentions getting a refined quote from the initial manufacturer, and two initial ones from among the ten.
In his fourth Update, he mentions the first company's quote has gone up significantly. But that two of those ten are promising. And that there'd be talks at GenCon
In his fifth Update, he mentions pairing it down to the final candidates.
In his sixth Update, there's no mention.

It's been two and a half months since this started. Do they have a soft deadline by which they should have a final decision on being able to proceed to the next level? End of September? October? November? Or is this going to nebulously drag on forever again? Give a date by which you'll either have an answer, or at least a detailed explanation of why more time is needed. Endlessly kicking the can down the road.... well, we've seen how well backers like that.

And I still think an explanation is warranted as to what happened to the initial manufacturer that still seemed to be in the picture in the March 1st, 2015 Update, and still seemed to be in the picture as of August 27th, 2015, and even sort of insinuated in the January 30th 2016 Update. Heck, it's not until September 10th 2016 that it's clear that there's a second manufacturer is in the picture. So, what happened to that initial manufacturer, and what does that mean regarding Wave 1 models? Have PB secured the molds for their existing stock? Or are those written off, and will need to be rebuilt?

Also, so many of the promises have never eventuated (Wayne's progress breakdown from June 10th, 2015 is the most egregious, but there were others like the promise of more things like what was shown in March 1st 2015, the many "Big things coming" that never did, and the Conventional Forces thing too), and an explanation of why they never happened, shouldn't be an issue, at least legally. I can't really speak to any embarassment caused by explaining why they weren't done. Regarding the last item (Conventional Forces), either the deal with GHQ had fallen through, there was an issue with the Conventional Forces that was critical failure, or the pre-orders just weren't sufficient to warrant production. If the latter, that's a dumb Catch-22, as people didn't preorder because they were waiting on the stats, and the stats were held off because the pre-orders weren't sufficient...

Backers tend to think they're owed answers as to why this has taken so long. And I think they deserve them. It's hard to accept that everything is above board when so much has been kept secret, and while it may not have been incorrect at the time PB issued certain statements, time proving those statements incorrect (2015, 2016, and 2017 being the year of Wave 2, for example), doesn't help with PB's credibility. Tiptoeing around certain facts because they're unpleasant to admit, doesn't garner trust. Just makes people wonder what else isn't being said.

Final point, even if things weren't as far along as initially anticipated, given what was done at the Kickstarter launch, it took approximately 15 months to produce one third of this game. Since Wave 1 was completed, and excluding the 3 months of shipping taking up productive time, it's been 36 months with almost no progress. And what little progress we've seen, potentially has to be redone. And how much work is "ready to go"? Or does the new manufacturer have to go to scratch building digital sculpts, then sprue layouts? I know Scott mentioned in his first Update the possibility of 2017. That's only possible if everything as far as the sprue layout for every single model is already done, and mold milling can begin immediately. For it to have ever been possible to do in six months, the molds would have to be milled, the test sprues popped and shipped to PB (and then HG) for approval, any modifications done, a new set if necessary, and after all two dozen or so sprues had been approved, manufacturing and then cargo shipping. Is that where things are at? Because if not, and there's the "going back to the drawing board" that was Wave 1 during July-December 2013, we're not far off having 2018 be unlikely too.

The fact of the matter is, PB knows what needed to be done for Wave 1. They know what needs to be done for Wave 2. There should be literally NOTHING new in the production of Wave 2 that they didn't have to deal with in Wave 1. So the ability to give a reasonable estimate of how much work (and therefore time) is needed for Wave 2, should NOT be hard, give or take 20%.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:34 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 306
Fine post, Morgan.

I agree it is now more than ever a time that Palladium have to be open and answer what are likley to be very uncomfortable (for them) questions about what has gone on.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:57 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:14 pm
Posts: 9290
Location: Northwood, ND
wilycoyote wrote:
Fine post, Morgan.

I agree it is now more than ever a time that Palladium have to be open and answer what are likley to be very uncomfortable (for them) questions about what has gone on.


Agree. Rip the band aid off as it would. It might really hurt at first, but then it should be better soon after.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:25 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 306
I mentioned in a separate post that PB have made definitive statements - wave 2 models being sent to China for engineering and tooling from update 186 27/8/2015 for example. Two years on nothing more has moved on and we are still apparentely in a quotes cycle with new manufacturers.

This of course implies money was spent for no result and of course money is still needed ro cover new quotes, this is wasteful of what might be already tight funds. However, there is little point in talking money it is the fastest way to see a thread deleted.

So from a project point of view why wasn't this production carried on? What happenned to the prototypes that presumably were made - possibly sprue layouts etc? Moving to new manufacturers to have far reaching implications fo rthe future of RTT, in so much as will all of the models remain consistent. There is a lot more that so far remains unanswered.

Nor sure we are talking band aid here, more like unwrapping the mummy


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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:28 pm
  

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Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:23 am
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It's been nearly two years since wave one finished shipping to international backers...

This is the game of quotes: http://withinthedungeon.blogspot.com/20 ... uotes.html (to my blog)

I just disagree with the band-aid analogy... The above notes what has been mentioned as the state of wave 2 for the last two years.

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