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Unread postPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 9:57 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 301
Little to be said about this week's PBWU, but the new about the cancellation of the Rifts KS, is interesting.

Given that RTT was "put on the back burner" earlier this year, presumably so work could be done helping the launch of the Rifts BG, then does that now mean that it is now to be promoted and get the attention it desperately needs. If it is to be left until later in the year would there be a possibility it would then clash with a possible relaunch of carmen's KS, causing more delays - albeit I would have assumed all the necessary approvals for figures and artwork was already done and therefore there would be very little extra for PB to do.

It is again hoped, illness permitting that now there is a clear field that Palladium now issue the long awaited but now more than ever needed upadte on RTT


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Unread postPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 1:31 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:38 am
Posts: 9
I doubt there will ever be another substantive update for RRT.


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 8:54 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 301
I would argue that without a renewed show of faith in RTT, including some immediate concrete evidence of progress then the toxicity surrounding this project and the outright anger it causes some will continue to plague anything PB or anyone associated to PB that tries to push product outside of their own little world.

It really is not that difficult to address customer/backer concerns, simply update them on what is happenning, something not done for months. Stop hiding behind pat phrases like "What we have planned is amazing, you will be gobsmacked, but oh sorry we cannot tell you about it yet". I will accept that for a week or two,, especially if there are contracts but this line is trotted out week after week, month after month.

Simple , definate information is all that is needed and wanted - I harp on about it but we were promised a full status update on every outstanding model, what 18 months ago( or was it more?) why has this not been done.

RTT backers can do nothing by themselves to progress this project , that lies solely in the hnds on PB, but as demonstrated on the Rifts BG KS, there are some who will try to ensure that everyone is aware (rightly or wrongly) that what many perceive as a botched projrct is still awaiting resolution and could effect the next one


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:21 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:18 pm
Posts: 1344
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
The reality of the situation is that RRT has made Palladium Books so toxic that it will attract plenty of untoward attention, and that goes double for any type of crowdfunding.

And yes, before anyone bothers saying it, I'm aware that Rogue Heroes has proclaimed at length that they are not affiliated with Palladium Books. The problem is, the people who are angry and frustrated don't care. Just using PB's Intellectual Property is enough to garner ire.

There are ways they could try to attend to this; show substantial progress with wave 2 (and make good on it, in a timeframe measured in quarters, not years). They could begin some sort of refund process (cash, in trade for other items collecting dust around the warehouse, whatever). If funding is short for either of these, they could procure more via 'normal' means, or go back to the well of "save us, fans, you're our only hope!" as they did post Crisis of Treachery. Or something else entirely, perhaps leveraging some of the business contacts they've presumably built over their 1/3'ish of a century in the RPG industry.

To be clear, I didn't pledge a cent to the Rifts BG campaign, nor did I comment on it (on their page), nor did I push anyone to go mess the place up.

But it's unrealistic to think this is going away.

Unfair as it may be to Carmen, I think this is an indication that a substantial number of people are still very unhappy with how this campaign was run and has failed to progress, and in this era of social media, all it takes is a couple dozen to make a mess of things. And while PB newsletters and updates always downplay those irate backers as a vocal minority, I think we can safely say they're having an impact regardless of how many there are.


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Unread postPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 8:31 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 301
Wow, evebn having a week off and not having tho write copiuis amounys about the Rifts BG KS - although it does get further up the bill than RTT - and that is all you have?

We have big plans and if they come together it would be epic, er that does not sound like a plan but a hoped for wish? So after nearly five months of silence you still have nothing concrete that you can pass onto the RTT community?

Sorry Palladium, this is just either sheer faced lies or you are simply demonstrating that you have no real desire to fulfil this KS.

It is a really simple straightforward task that is in front of you, complete and send out wave 2. If after that point you have plans to expand and repromote the game so be it, but without the support of the vast majority of people who have this game, that is the RTT backers, any future planning is frankly wasting your time.

Sadly, until you feel fit to resolve this by producing wave 2, the acrimony and resentment felt by many RTT backers is going to taint other Palladium or linked product, as was amply demonstrated by the collapse of the Rifts BG KS - albeit it was already a badly organised, badly priced enterprise to begin with.


Warning: Trolling - Criticism is fine, but calling people liars isn't.


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Unread postPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 2:37 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:18 pm
Posts: 1344
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Regarding the warning: if one were to give the benefit of the doubt, the newsletters have been repeating some variation on 'waiting for quotes' for something like half a year, possibly more. They were supposed to tell us more back in January, and then that moved to February, and now we're in mid May and we still haven't seen anything. THAT SAID, I totally get that business can have snags, maybe the quote was too high, maybe the process being suggested would have been an even bigger mess than the wave 1 figures (in terms of parts count, something PB has latched onto as apparently being the most important thing in the world, up to and including letting this project drift towards the half decade marker). BUT, if that's the case, that would be an interesting thing to hear. Nobody sensible is asking for exacting particulars here, but how about some general talk about the difficulties they're facing? What is the next step, the ACTUAL next step? Because 'it's boiling over' or 'epic things are coming' isn't a plan, it's vague reassurances that carry zero weight to them.

The lack of detail, of transparency, of pro-active attention to these kinds of details, are what make their silence punctuated with meager pablum seem like lying. If it's not a smokescreen to their lack of progress/effort, then how about showcasing something? Anything?

2014 had wave 1 deliver.
2015 had a handful of sprue breakdowns in February, and a promise of a detailed breakdown of where every piece was at by Wayne in the Summer (June or July).
2016 had the SDF-1 resin prototype and a handful of 3D printed prototypes in March/April.

Since then we've had... the cards go up on DTRPG. 13-14 months and counting with zero tangible progress (I believe people were saying the cards had 2014 on their copyright date, so I'm not counting them as progress unless they went through a massive revision process before they ended up in our hands). That's a pretty reasonable thing to be frustrated about. As has been often said, if there are things going on in the background that would alleviate concerns about them not making progress, the best way to alleviate them would be... to show it off. I don't buy that the mild critique they got the last time they showcased progress was somehow so terrible it is better to punish the entire backer base with silence for months if not years.

And yes, I'm aware "PB doesn't read the forums". These same critiques and suggestions have been told to them on Facebook, at conventions, in emails, on the Kickstarter comments back when they seemed to bother providing updates, and more. There seem to be zero avenues to provide critique or commentary that they care to actively participate in, so I'm happy to converse with those few who do wander into this subforum once in a while on the topic.


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 2:53 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 301
Fair enough, I probably pushed a wee bit too far with that post. I will rein back a little in the future

However I would echo, Forar that this is mostly born of the frustration of not seeing any information about what is gpoing on at the moment.


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Unread postPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 8:38 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 301
Another weekly update and as has been the case for weeks/months absolutely no concrete news about any progress as regards the wave 2 production. In a similar vein, it musr be time for a update on Kickstarter?

If an update is planned may I suggest that PB should after all this time be in a position to show off all of the 3d models created fo wave 2. I can understand to a limited extent that getting from these to production is potentiallyfraught with issues, however we are still to see any sign of the FPA's, MPA's Zent infantry or the resin objective pieces - withthe exception of the disguised Max (not posted but was in a display case picture). In addition there are the personality models for Rick, Fokker, Khyron and Mirya.

I would contend that even giving backers sight of all these wave 2 renders is something, as the continuing loud sound of silence is deafening in what is not being said


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 3:16 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 301
Just musing it has been over three months since the last kickstarter update - but to be fair it is actually longer as those in February were prompted by the unfortunate circumstances of the Rifts BG. It is also fast approaching the second anniversary of the complete status of every outstanding model in wave 2.

As posted above, the RTT community is starved of any positive information on progress - even if painfully slow - and sadly it is only PB that can supply this.

Given at the end of last year the goal was to get wave 2 out in 2017, it is plainly obvious that this cannot now be done. Likewise it remains doubtful - given the other books due for more immediate release - that the RTT scenario bok or Ghost Fleet supplement will arrive either.

We are fast approaching Gencon and so so are we again going to find out what the state of play is via a "leak" or can we now quite reasonably expect PB to man up and tell us what is going on.

It is not unreasonable to believe at this point that unless work on test models/sprues etc is started before the fourth quarter of 2017 the likiehood of a 2018 release is also becoming a precarious objective for PB ro make good on.

These are effectively simple questions directed at the project manager of the RTT KS and ones that they should be able to answer, it is hoped that a shred of customer service remains and they do so.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:17 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 301
Okay the new PBWU is up, just move along nothing to see here.......

Nearly half a year with no meaningful update posted to KS and nearly two years since the promise of the status breakdown, I do not know, why there is not the slightest trickle of information about progess being passed to the investors in this project.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:02 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:03 pm
Posts: 209
Actually it's been a heck of a lot longer than you think. The last update showing ANY forward progress was March/April 2016 when they showed off some 3d renders and the small resin sdf-1 at adepticon. That's not counting the very info dry 2015 before that. Just about every update on rrt either here or on the kickstarter site are usually the same, summed up to "nothing to tell but please buy stuff" if you'll pardon the paraphrasing. Oh and I can't forget the last 2 "all you backers are mean, but buy stuff" updates.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:23 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:18 pm
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
It has been about 2-3 years since we saw substantial progress; 2014 for wave one delivery, I don't consider a half dozen sprue breakdown renders in 2015 and another half dozen prototypes in 2016 to be 'substantial progress' considering how much is left to do here.

But I assume the 'half year' comment wasn't so much about the time since they actually produced something, and more related to the comments that have been showing up since early this year (or so) in the newsletters about 'waiting on quotes' and 'trying to reduce the parts count' or variations thereof. Those have been common over the years for sure, but there was a notable uptick in that kind of talk at the start of this year.

Oh, and some very confident/definitive statements about Wave 2 delivery. Funny how we're now half way into the year and RRT barely even gets mentioned anymore. Just kinda quietly falling by the wayside...


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:33 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:03 pm
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I just don't see a ton of positive news surrounding this game any time soon.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:15 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:38 pm
Posts: 234
rosco60559 wrote:
I just don't see a ton of positive news surrounding this game any time soon.

Until or unless PB announce something substantial and informative (with pictures!), what's the point? They've kicked this can down the road each and every year since early 2014.

And there's simply been nothing said that makes it look like 2017 is any different. The last official report that backers got, still says "we are dedicated to getting Wave 2 done and in your hands by the end of 2017". But with no manufacturer finalized, a few full-form (not pre-prototype*) prints, and PB continuing to futz around with new developments, there's zero reasons to believe that 2017 isn't going to be the same as 2014, 2015, or 2016.

* There's a significant difference between the two. The former is easily made and shows proof of concept, from digital sculpts that PB have had since the campaign, and doesn't have any real effect on manufacturing. The latter is used for developing the molds needed to actually make the miniatures.

Just a reminder, at this point in 2014, starting from progress on the 1st of January, we'd seen many PPP's, and nearly all the test sprues, for Wave 1, which delivered in October. Heck, manufacturing "started" (for a vague definition of started), mid June. There has been zero evidence that there's been any progress since March 1st, 2015. Ironically, that post gives the reinforcing statement "there’s no reason you guys should ever feel in the dark so much that you start to worry about whether we’re even working on this stuff.". And then follows it up with "Today, I’ll start with the few pieces I mentioned in the January 17, 2015 Update. More will be coming in the following days.". And that was literally the last new thing mentioned.

As PB are seeking quotes, that gives a high probability that even this work on the parts breakdown has probably been scrapped. I'm curious how long it'll be before someone at PB will concede that 2017 is not a possibility, but the relaunch in 2018, with delivery of Wave 2, will be AWESOME!


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:42 pm
  

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Wanderer

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:47 pm
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Comment: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Fan
So, a little over two years since a real update.

Ouch. That's depressing. Whole games have kickstarted and been delivered in that time-frame.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:57 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:18 pm
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Shadows of Brimstone is a game that a similar number of backers followed for a similar amount of money (overall and per backer) in a similar time frame (Nov 2013 rather than April/May) that ended up with hundreds of elements between dice and rule books and missions and figures (well over 100 of those) and cards and tiles and tokens and more, and they're just finally starting to deliver now for the remainder of what was owed (they delivered their wave one roughly on time).

Now, these aren't perfect 1:1 comparisons here, nor am I trying to make them out to be, but what I find fascinating are the people who are chomping at the bit to declare that project a sham and a scam and how angry there are.

As someone who was a part of both, I just sigh wistfully. Some remain angry while giant boxes of product are going into the mail as we speak, and here we can measure in years (plural) how long it has been since we saw substantial progress.

Again, I'm not saying every project is perfectly comparable. Hell, I'll even point out that unlike RRT, SoB was a new Intellectual Property, so the creators didn't have a Harmony Gold analog to run everything past.

But they're also managing to deliver more in less time, so...


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:08 pm
  

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Wanderer

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:47 pm
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Comment: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Fan
I didn't back SoB, but I'm guessing they don't have as many angry backers as RTT.

Did SoB have informative updates that kept backers up to date on progress? I can understand a project of that magnitude taking far longer than they originally anticipated. (A friend of mine was a Minecart backer, if that's the right name, and he says there is something like a 40 lb box of plastic goodness on the way to his house.)

So, while SoB may also be very late, if they did keep their backers informed of progress, that could explain the difference in perception of the two projects.

I don't mind if something is late if I feel that the creator is making progress and is doing their best to keep us backers informed. It's the not knowing what is happening that is the most frustrating part to me.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:47 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:38 pm
Posts: 234
LtPebbles wrote:
I didn't back SoB, but I'm guessing they don't have as many angry backers as RTT.

Did SoB have informative updates that kept backers up to date on progress? I can understand a project of that magnitude taking far longer than they originally anticipated. (A friend of mine was a Minecart backer, if that's the right name, and he says there is something like a 40 lb box of plastic goodness on the way to his house.)

So, while SoB may also be very late, if they did keep their backers informed of progress, that could explain the difference in perception of the two projects.

I don't mind if something is late if I feel that the creator is making progress and is doing their best to keep us backers informed. It's the not knowing what is happening that is the most frustrating part to me.

Not nearly so many backers, but there are still some. And some do have legitimate gripes. Communication (at least in frequency) is garbage. But most of their Updates are full of informative stuff. New art, new sculpts, new cards and other gameplay elements. Some of the gripes are less than legitimate (the extortion claims, the first because FFP batched some content together for the retail box sets and asked people who wanted full retail contents to pay the difference, everything in the campaign was still provided at no additional cost, and the second because FFP offered an early partial shipment if you paid shipping, to name two). And one in particular is an entitlement expectation that was never stated. Ironically, PB did, and they received legitimate backlash for it. During the FFP campaign, there was never any mention of "Backers First". And nearly all backers (Australia excepted) got their core boxes before it went retail. But some are under the unrealistic expectation that FFP shouldn't sell anything until they've completed the 50+ expansions that are due.

And while FFP don't advertise it, they appear to issue refunds if asked. I'm yet to hear anyone declare that they've asked for a refund, and been refused. Another big difference from PB. Most people still griping realise that their a) going to get their product eventually, and b) will be able to at least make their money back (and then some) on selling on EBay or the like. Again, not something a significant number of RRT backers appear to believe.

As I mentioned above, the updates were informative, even if overly optimistic about dates, and there's been a steady, significant improvement in the quality of components (some initial models aren't great), that's verifiable. Because they showed pictures! They're also not unafraid to have those models painted up to be shown in their best light either. Two things PB should consider doing.

And your last point is my own personal takeaway too. I don't mind if I get something late. As long as I'm getting what I was promised, what I'm getting is quality, there's an obvious and earnest attempt by the Creators to do so, and I don't feel like I'm getting my chain yanked. None of which I'd have been able to say about RRT at this date.

If you can get in on your friend's game, I'd recommend it. It's not for everyone (the randomness can annoy some), but of the 40 odd Kickstarter campaigns I've recieved, not only have I gotten more playtime and enjoyment out of SoB than any other, despite spending more than $2000US on it (Minecart original, Brimstone Gold in the followup, plus other addons and bits and bobs), it ranks second in entertainment PER DOLLAR. Only a small $24 game beat Shadows out in that category, and it doesn't compare to hours played. Well over a year playing every week, 3-4 hours every Wednesday. And that was just with the two base cores ($198MSRP). I'm itching for the remainder, and the medieval orient version that's due next year.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:07 pm
  

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Wanderer

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:47 pm
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Comment: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Fan
Morgan Vening wrote:
If you can get in on your friend's game, I'd recommend it. It's not for everyone (the randomness can annoy some), but of the 40 odd Kickstarter campaigns I've recieved, not only have I gotten more playtime and enjoyment out of SoB than any other, despite spending more than $2000US on it (Minecart original, Brimstone Gold in the followup, plus other addons and bits and bobs), it ranks second in entertainment PER DOLLAR. Only a small $24 game beat Shadows out in that category, and it doesn't compare to hours played. Well over a year playing every week, 3-4 hours every Wednesday. And that was just with the two base cores ($198MSRP). I'm itching for the remainder, and the medieval orient version that's due next year.


That's good to hear. We plan on playing a regular campaign of SoB, but my friend doesn't want to start until he finishes painting the minis. And he has a lot of minis to paint! But, hopefully, soon.

Thanks for the info.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:31 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:07 am
Posts: 37
Comment: Yabba Dabba Doo
Quote:
I don't mind if something is late if I feel that the creator is making progress and is doing their best to keep us backers informed. It's the not knowing what is happening that is the most frustrating part to me.


Yes, that's really the take away that has gotten missed over the last four years.

People are willing to be patient, but that patience has to be earned.
Honesty, genuineness, displays of progress, following up with promises, etc.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:31 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 301
Aaah the update has arrived, but is sadly very short on tangible progress.

The repeated mantra of waiting on quotes wil not go down well, unless you can show us what youare showing to prospective manufacturers. Afterall you were happy to show renders befre signing up for wave one, why not for wave 2?

So welcome as the update is, I get a feeling that it will do little to still the stormy waters on the RTT KS site


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:01 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 301
Went back over the update to see if I was indeed missing something blatantly obvious and I was not mistaken.

Scott talks of a discussion with a manufacturer (in China via PBWU) and still waiting after two weeks for revised quotes. However this begs the question that if as stated back in November 2016 PB were getting quotes what happenned in the following six months? As is already pointed out elsewhere is this just the same delaying excuse, but put in a more professional manner.

In the same vein where are the signs of progress on the resin pices, nothing for four years. It should be a siple task to obtain pictures of all (resin/plstic) models currently being worked - to be fair they should be well finshed at this point.

As a UK backer even if production started tomorrow I am resigned to not getting wave 2 mid 2018 at the earliest, but unless a significant move is made in the next few weeks it is more likely 2019, which would be six years late and as yet I am to see a real apology from anyone at PB let alone any mention of some form of restitution for this sad state of affairs

As this sorry project limps on with no end in sight at the moment, it is more and more difficult to ask questions and elicit any response from Scott or anyone at PB without sounding peevish and wandering off into trolldom, this is not the intention, I just want someone to be honest and sttraight with me and my fellow backers


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:13 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:33 am
Posts: 49
For his sake...I do hope SG has some real information for the next update.

If he is the business manager as he claims...I would hope he is to be going forward on those China supplier calls. It seems pretty need to know information to me.

If there is no actual news on the supposed quotes...for the love of God...do not say 'soon' anywhere..and no where use the term 'I/we hope'. Only state the facts as they are. Hope is not a fact. Just say we do not yet have a resolution.

And SG...you had best come to the next update with some details of what will eventually be produced...and some evidence of what has been done to date. To start...renders of the models would be nice. If none exist...then best to say it.

Since they are not reliant on China....it is time to show something ( or say nothing has yet been done) on the resin pieces...even update on the sdf1 which I believe was seen once.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:45 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 301
Just fishing but what price the SDF 1 being available as a limited collectors piece at Gen Con?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:08 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:18 pm
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I'm having trouble parsing that. Are you asking that as a hypothetical?

It was $20 in the KS. I imagine if it was $25-30 there wouldn't be too much complaining, and it'd be a tiny positive in them actually completing one of the resin pieces that have been left unattended for so long.

However, it'd also probably create something of a s___storm (so darude) as it'd be the first piece from the actual KS produced and released before the backers could get it, possibly for quarters or years (if ever). Max and Miriya and Grell were all allegedly unique Consclusives, this would be an actual KS item finally made (after all these years) and put to market?

I'm sure some people would applaud them finally doing *something*, but it'd be controversial.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:37 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 301
yes, I was not making myself roo clear there.

What I was wondering was whether PB would briing anything new to the gen Con Show and given what we saw was a almost all metal casr the SDF! was a thought.

Agreed it would kjck up a storm but like any double edged sword would also show some progress - damned if you do dmned if you don't.

With little new on offer it does seem a little tricky for PB to push RTT asit stands


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:18 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 301
Thank you Scott for keeping to the schedule and posting another update.

Although short on actual detail, it did for the first time officially confirm what many had already suspected no Wave 2 for backers in 2017, fair enough not really a great surprise.

However it does raise a couple of significant points over PB's action - or more specifically non actions - ove rthe last three and a half years, Exactly what has been going on? Reducing parts counts is an admirable goal but without committing to some sort of manufacture , perhaps how this could be done needs explanation. Why when everything was going throughthe manufacturer of Wave 1 - who presumably was contracted and brifed on all models required were they dropped rather than move on straight after W1 was produced - the part count excuse only came to light a year or so later?

What is happenning over the resin pices and the special Rick and Fokker sets? Beggars belief that nothing has happenned over 4 plus years for presumably the US sourced models?

Finally, Scott please get those pictures into the next update. Simply put you must have had sonething to show brokers/factories, so gerring them should not really be a six week exercise.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:30 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:33 am
Posts: 49
I would have to think it is clear that Palladium has done absolutely nothing on the project probably since mid-2015 or there abouts...with the exception of getting the standees posted.

Scott (IMO) is basically starting as if this is spring 2015 or so. So I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt that they are really involved with suppliers and what not.

That does beg the question what has been going on up till now and the forthrightness of all the weekly updates and KS updates that have been given by Kevin and Wayne. But it will be up to Kev/Wayne to discuss...you will nevee likely hear it from Scott. His just seems to be to look forward...not back.

I am curious however what has changed since May when he supposedly came on board. What is different now? Perhaps an external force is putting their feet to the fire? Perhaps someone has put in some equity in the the hopes of a payoff or perhaps just to ensure this mess gets cleaned up?

I still tend to give Scott the assumption he is genuinely working with quotes and manufacturers ..but that reflects poorly on the previous regime, less so Scott. Scott has to start from step 1(Chines quotes) because that is what he has been given because Kevin,Wayne and team seemingly have not moved the project one percentage point towards completion since wave 1 shipped.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:23 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:33 am
Posts: 49
My bad. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:21 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:38 pm
Posts: 234
The problem seems to be not wanting to give out any details, when a few details could help to allay fears.

Obviously some things should be kept secret, and others could at least be argued as such.

But in Scott's first Update (June 21st), he mentions a phone call after the initial quote on the Friday before (June 16th), to hammer out details.
In his second Update, he mentions continuing talks, as well as opening up new channels to ten other manufacturers.
In his third Update, he mentions getting a refined quote from the initial manufacturer, and two initial ones from among the ten.
In his fourth Update, he mentions the first company's quote has gone up significantly. But that two of those ten are promising. And that there'd be talks at GenCon
In his fifth Update, he mentions pairing it down to the final candidates.
In his sixth Update, there's no mention.

It's been two and a half months since this started. Do they have a soft deadline by which they should have a final decision on being able to proceed to the next level? End of September? October? November? Or is this going to nebulously drag on forever again? Give a date by which you'll either have an answer, or at least a detailed explanation of why more time is needed. Endlessly kicking the can down the road.... well, we've seen how well backers like that.

And I still think an explanation is warranted as to what happened to the initial manufacturer that still seemed to be in the picture in the March 1st, 2015 Update, and still seemed to be in the picture as of August 27th, 2015, and even sort of insinuated in the January 30th 2016 Update. Heck, it's not until September 10th 2016 that it's clear that there's a second manufacturer is in the picture. So, what happened to that initial manufacturer, and what does that mean regarding Wave 1 models? Have PB secured the molds for their existing stock? Or are those written off, and will need to be rebuilt?

Also, so many of the promises have never eventuated (Wayne's progress breakdown from June 10th, 2015 is the most egregious, but there were others like the promise of more things like what was shown in March 1st 2015, the many "Big things coming" that never did, and the Conventional Forces thing too), and an explanation of why they never happened, shouldn't be an issue, at least legally. I can't really speak to any embarassment caused by explaining why they weren't done. Regarding the last item (Conventional Forces), either the deal with GHQ had fallen through, there was an issue with the Conventional Forces that was critical failure, or the pre-orders just weren't sufficient to warrant production. If the latter, that's a dumb Catch-22, as people didn't preorder because they were waiting on the stats, and the stats were held off because the pre-orders weren't sufficient...

Backers tend to think they're owed answers as to why this has taken so long. And I think they deserve them. It's hard to accept that everything is above board when so much has been kept secret, and while it may not have been incorrect at the time PB issued certain statements, time proving those statements incorrect (2015, 2016, and 2017 being the year of Wave 2, for example), doesn't help with PB's credibility. Tiptoeing around certain facts because they're unpleasant to admit, doesn't garner trust. Just makes people wonder what else isn't being said.

Final point, even if things weren't as far along as initially anticipated, given what was done at the Kickstarter launch, it took approximately 15 months to produce one third of this game. Since Wave 1 was completed, and excluding the 3 months of shipping taking up productive time, it's been 36 months with almost no progress. And what little progress we've seen, potentially has to be redone. And how much work is "ready to go"? Or does the new manufacturer have to go to scratch building digital sculpts, then sprue layouts? I know Scott mentioned in his first Update the possibility of 2017. That's only possible if everything as far as the sprue layout for every single model is already done, and mold milling can begin immediately. For it to have ever been possible to do in six months, the
molds would have to be milled, the test sprues popped and shipped to PB (and then HG) for approval, any modifications done, a new set if necessary, and after all two dozen or so sprues had been approved, manufacturing and then cargo shipping. Is that where things are at? Because if not, and there's the "going back to the drawing board" that was Wave 1 during July-December 2013, we're not far off having 2018 be unlikely too.

The fact of the matter is, PB knows what needed to be done for Wave 1. They know what needs to be done for Wave 2. There should be literally NOTHING new in the production of Wave 2 that they didn't have to deal with in Wave 1. So the ability to give a reasonable estimate of how much work (and therefore time) is needed for Wave 2, should NOT be hard, give or take 20%.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:24 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 301
Okay, the question is simple, "Why has it taken fours years and counting to get the remainder of the Kickstarter promised by Palladium Books to its backers - ie Wave 2?"

A sub question reflects the current anxiety of why it has taken over a year - since Wayne and Kevin posted updates saying they were looking at them- to finalise manufacturing quotes for this product?

Of course going back on the KS updates in late 2013, there was confirmation atht all sculpts had been completed and the whole project had moved to manufacturing at least the intitial prototypes and initial test sprues. It was only on the last day of january that we were told of the arbitary decision tajken by PB to split the rewards into two waves but even then the promise was a relatively small delay of six months between the two - certainly not three years and counting. The inference was that everything was in place - a fact seemingly confirmed in the recent John Candice Facebook posts.

Therefore will someone at Palladium now explain exactly why everything has taken so long to produce and please stick to facts not wishy washy excuses about wanting the best product, we have your interest at heart, we wanted it to be great etc, simple cold hard facts.

Scott you have been the Business manger at PB for at least four months now and given RTT was and is the biggest project on their books, what concrete steps have been made to deliver it iin, I hate to say it - even in 2018. No manufacturing deal, the impending Chinese new year and we are at best loking at a timescale similar to Wave One which place US backers getting their stuff late 2018, while myself and other non US backers looking at 2019.

Does anyone at Palladium want to actually admit this is totally unacceptable in terms of customer service. I can think of no other firm that take your money and then might just give you what they promised six years (at lest might give you) later and even then have the outright gall to refuse to entertain any discussion about refunding your monies or at least try to try and make some other recompense.

Balls in your court, Kevin, Wayne, Scott or whoever.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:21 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:33 am
Posts: 49
Answer 1a: They have no (or not enough) money left.

Answer 1b(subquestion): They have no (or not enough) money left.

Answer 2(current concrete steps): none

Answer 3(admit things): no, nothing will be admitted.

Unfortunately no one outside of Palladium actually knows much for certain, but an educated guess suggest the above is the most likely scenario.

I do hope Palladium, and particularly Scott will come through with the game, or at least some answers. Especially as he had sold many with the new day is dawning. Unfortunately in spite of a good start, it is very quickly become same old.

Heck, he hasnt even done his promised weekly murmur since July. Kevineven has done better then Mr. Gibson.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:36 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 301
As I said at this point as a non US backer , I will be lucky to see anything now before 2019 and that is heavily dependent on something definate happenning before the year end.

At this point I am more concerned about the utter lack of transparency in how PB have been handling this project just before and the year ofr so after wave one was manufactured. All their own updates and information they supplied at the time indicated that the prototypes were complete, approved and in the correct format tfor that particular manufacturer - that deals with that excuse. parts counts were never an issue to themm at this point otherwise they will have heeded the crtisism aboutthe wave one models and addressed thiose concerns, but they never said a word about this - tillaround 18 months later as another limp excuse.

What happenned at this crucial point in the project, why did the plans carefully spelled out to backers not take place as PB (Wayne and Kevin confirmed them) had stated. If they had I would probab;y be bemoaining the number of parts and fifddlyness of putting together the super Valk, but at least I would have have had what was diue to ne for well over 18 months or possibly more.

Who pulled the plug and why?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:26 pm
  

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Demon Lord Extraordinaire

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Location: Apocrypha
Comment: sdrtb
wilycoyote wrote:
Simple question that must be answered by Palladium Books


While I'd love to see your questions answered, I highly doubt Palladium will be anymore forthcoming than they already have been.

I'd also like to know if Harmony Gold loses the Robotech license in 2021, how that's going to affect Palladium? With Palladium appearing to just be dragging their feet over gettting Wave 2 started and garnishing nothing but ill will in return I don't think Tatsunoko would be willing to extend the license to PB for RTT and the RPG. Does PB have a hard-date to actually start on Wave 2 regardless of whether the part-count was able to be reduced and/or what the cost will be?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:12 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:38 pm
Posts: 234
The Beast wrote:
wilycoyote wrote:
Simple question that must be answered by Palladium Books


While I'd love to see your questions answered, I highly doubt Palladium will be anymore forthcoming than they already have been.

I'd also like to know if Harmony Gold loses the Robotech license in 2021, how that's going to affect Palladium? With Palladium appearing to just be dragging their feet over gettting Wave 2 started and garnishing nothing but ill will in return I don't think Tatsunoko would be willing to extend the license to PB for RTT and the RPG. Does PB have a hard-date to actually start on Wave 2 regardless of whether the part-count was able to be reduced and/or what the cost will be?

Heck, I'd settle for an acknowledgement of the issue, but I'm not expecting that. Because even if they attempt to assure people that Wave 2 is possible in the timeframe remaining (a little under 3 1/2 years), even the most optimistic outlook means that the initially promised Gen 2 and Gen 3 aren't likely to be tested, designed, made, and circulated through retail.

And while a lot of people just want their owed materials, one of the selling points behind people backing in the first place, was that being part of the plan. And one PB have doubled down on a couple times since.

Scott has said he reads every Update comment, and tries to keep up on the project Comments, but his choices of which questions and issues he responds to, tend to avoid the ones that are conceptually sensitive. So I don't expect much from Tuesday's update. A lack of concrete details, vague assurances of progress, little or no new visual product, and a small possibly of the much overdue Force Orgs.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:45 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
At a guess?
I would suspect one of the issues is that the backer negativity has turned into a self fulfilling prophecy.
With a certain segment of the backers irate and doing their best to 'punish' Palladium by 'ruining' the sales of the game, the sales of the game have gone down. There is no convention support...because no one that plays it is willing to go to conventions to do so and Palladium simply doesn't have the employee base to provide convention staff to do it. This again hurts sales. The lower sales result in even less stores willing to stock the product which in turn lowers sales further...
...and with out sales of products issues of money again come up because there is/was only so much money raised by the initial Kickstarter.

This leads to a second feedback cycle. The game needs to sell units to finance the second wave... and needs the second wave to sell units.

My suspicion is that what has been produced is all that is going to get made and that the rest will come under the heading of 'some Kickstarters fail'.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:58 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:33 am
Posts: 49
eliakon wrote:
I would suspect one of the issues is that the backer negativity has turned into a self fulfilling prophecy.
With a certain segment of the backers irate and doing their best to 'punish' Palladium by 'ruining' the sales of the game, the sales of the game have gone down.


I actually see very little ruining of the game (palladium yes, the game no). The game for the most part has failed on its own in 2015 when it was first released amid all the positive hype, the great resurgance of Palladium and Kevin Siembieda. It died on the gen con convention tables when people actually saw what they would get.


eliakon wrote:
There is no convention support...because no one that plays it is willing to go to conventions to do so and Palladium simply doesn't have the employee base to provide convention staff to do it. This again hurts sales.


Well, this is again on Palladium. They needed to prime the convention pump to get people seeing the game. This is their job, and would and will cost money. That they have chosen not to support it is on them.



eliakon wrote:
This leads to a second feedback cycle. The game needs to sell units to finance the second wave... and needs the second wave to sell units.



Well...this is seemingly a reality that is also on Palladiums back. There should not have even been a wave two ... that now because of decisions made require wave one to be sold. And if this is what Palladium needs....it is on them to engage the community and overcome all the bad blood to sell through wave one. Their recent attempt by Scott is just another sad failure...and in some ways even more insulting (IMO) then all the platitudes of Kevin, Wayne, etc. combined.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:39 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
wizardofthenorth wrote:
eliakon wrote:
I would suspect one of the issues is that the backer negativity has turned into a self fulfilling prophecy.
With a certain segment of the backers irate and doing their best to 'punish' Palladium by 'ruining' the sales of the game, the sales of the game have gone down.


I actually see very little ruining of the game (palladium yes, the game no). The game for the most part has failed on its own in 2015 when it was first released amid all the positive hype, the great resurgance of Palladium and Kevin Siembieda. It died on the gen con convention tables when people actually saw what they would get.

You may be seeing different things than I see.
*shrugs*
The constant negativity by the highly vocal segment does not help.
It may be a bit different when you are on the outside looking in rather than the inside looking out.

wizardofthenorth wrote:
eliakon wrote:
There is no convention support...because no one that plays it is willing to go to conventions to do so and Palladium simply doesn't have the employee base to provide convention staff to do it. This again hurts sales.


Well, this is again on Palladium. They needed to prime the convention pump to get people seeing the game. This is their job, and would and will cost money. That they have chosen not to support it is on them.

And again, with what money?
Are you seriously expecting Palladium (or any company) to lose money chasing a sunk cost on a project that is not making money and has a group of people that have vocally and publically said that they will do everything they can to make it fail?
Really?
Because to me that sounds like simply throwing good money after bad and a really efficient way to lose lots of money.
Was Palladium probably overly optimistic in the level of fan support that it would get at conventions?
Yes, I think they were.
Does that mean that they should spend money they don't have on it?
No I don't think they should.



wizardofthenorth wrote:
eliakon wrote:
This leads to a second feedback cycle. The game needs to sell units to finance the second wave... and needs the second wave to sell units.



Well...this is seemingly a reality that is also on Palladiums back. There should not have even been a wave two ... that now because of decisions made require wave one to be sold. And if this is what Palladium needs....it is on them to engage the community and overcome all the bad blood to sell through wave one. Their recent attempt by Scott is just another sad failure...and in some ways even more insulting (IMO) then all the platitudes of Kevin, Wayne, etc. combined.

From what I can tell there is no engagement on either side.
There are battle lines drawn and a certain hyper-vocal segment of the backer population has made it so that Palladium is unable to speak to anyone, at all on this issue. When there is official word, it is denounced when there isn't word it is denounced. Palladium can recognize a catch-22 when they see it.
This is especially compounded when people make threats or harass uninvolved parties as that is not going to bring anyone to the table but simply make the people at Palladium feel that the backer community is not actually willing and able to discuss things. And no it does not have to be the entire community. The actions of a small group of radicals though mask the rest of the moderates.
It takes two parties to have a discussion after all. Both parties must be willing to listen to the other party. If one side is unwilling to do so and simply demands that the other capitulate or else...
...well that's not a discussion and most people are not really interested in having that with said party.

As for why there was a wave one/wave two.
I am not privy to all the technical details, but from my understanding there were issues with some of the model designs and the choice was 'get out the wave one' or 'wait another six months to a year to get out everything' and that the decision at the time was to get out what they had then and get out the rest when it was finished.
Which considering the vehemence of the most vocal segments at the time rather makes sense.

At the end of the day I suspect that the rest of the game is never going to get made. Though I could be pleasantly surprised.
The costs so far have already significantly exceeded the revenue brought in by the Kickstarter and there simply isn't a source of money to finance the remaining portion of the project. With out some sort of infusion of money from some source (such as a sudden massive boost in sales of the game or the like) there simply isn't a way to get the project done.
It sucks and a lot of people are going to be very unhappy.
But the way I see it is, that no one should put money into a Kickstarter that you can't afford to lose if the project fails.
*shrug* some people may not see it that way, but that is how I see it which colors my views and my responses here.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:34 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 301
Hmm, as you say yourself you are on the outside looking in and have not had to endure the mishandling of this project which will be at least five years late in delivering its promises. What you say, did you not realise PB never keep to schedules, er that does not matter this was not in house PB

You make a point about the vocal minority who you claim are trying to run this down. This is incorrect, we are the people who have constantly voiced suggestions to resolve the siuation as well as concerns over the intial models and the delays in securing the manufacturing of wave 2. many more also make their voices heard in KS forum , especially after the "updates". If these voices were not heard then I strongly suspect that PB would take the sience as tacit support - check the Gencon vote 2014 when non votes were all added to PB's preferred option, democracy at work there.

Regarding wave two, you touch on something that we have been asking for clarification on for years and was highlighted in the recent Facebook spat between NMI and John Candice of Ninja Division. When the decision to split the pledges into two waves this was not because wave two models were not ready - or at least that was what we have been told . This is clearly evidenced by Kevin himself in KS update 186 staing unequivocally that the wave 2 models had been sent to China for tooling and engineering, attaching the pictures of the same. It is also present here if you care to look at the Resources page on theis site. So , if this is not the case, this would seem to indicate some untruths have and continue to be pushed out to backers. The part counts excuse came up well over fifteen month after wave one went to production

I agree that the chance to produce this game are slim because of rising costs and so forth, but this is something that Palladium are obligated to deal with. Even with the changes in the Kickstarter rules - albeit the contract we had under the original set were more stringent - do mean that Palladium must fulfil their promises and supply the product they said they indicated. If not then they have to fully explain why they cannot and what arrangements they are taking to reimburse their backers - even if only in part

Note these funds were made available tp Palladium in addition to those of their own contribution and were for use in this project and not for general day to day running costs. Yes costs have risen over four plus years, but if the project had been brought in , in a timely and professional manner then this would not have been the cause for concern it is today Before you trot out "it is not a pre order" can I say we knew this , it was an investment made into this compamy to the tune of $1.5 million dollars - I suggest the biggest cash injection they had ever seen - they continue to stal on delivery and have outright said there will be no need to refund, strongly emphasisiing when questione dthat they will deliver.

I suspect you are a long time Palladium fan arguing their side, but as it stands the RTT project is not the cash cow panacea for Palladium. Kevin envisioned back in February 2013 and is more likely the albatross around the company's neck, that has the potential to stifle if not strangle their endevours

This is a crisis brought about by the ineptness of Palladium's own project management (more correctly lack of it) and not something that was caused by a few vocal dissidents.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:35 pm
  

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Wanderer

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:47 pm
Posts: 85
Comment: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Fan
eliakon wrote:
At a guess?
I would suspect one of the issues is that the backer negativity has turned into a self fulfilling prophecy.
With a certain segment of the backers irate and doing their best to 'punish' Palladium by 'ruining' the sales of the game, the sales of the game have gone down.


That's an interesting idea.

Not sure I can agree with it. I think there are many more likely reasons RRT has failed in the retail marketplace, but no doubt it had some impact.

1) Many of the people who would have bought it at retail already backed the KS campaign. There probably just isn't as many potential customers for this IP as PB imagined.

2) The number of parts for the miniatures was a well-known complaint from before the retail launch. That may have scared off some of the casual hobbyists or non-hobbyist gamers would would have preferred one piece minis or a smaller number of parts. I'm not sure if there isn't a single review that doesn't mention the vast number of teeny-tiny model pieces. The miniatures, at least the minis in the core box, should have been around six parts (two legs, two arms, torso, and head). Especially since the number of parts doesn't lend itself to more dramatically posed minis.

3) The number of irate backers was actually a pretty small percentage. Yes, they were vocal, but they were mostly contained to the KS comments page. Most retail customers probably never saw the irate backers at that time. The longer the KS campaign has gone unfulfilled, the more vocal irate backers have become and the more their message has spread.

4) The lack of follow on expansions (i.e., no wave 2). Gamers like expansions, especially miniature gamers. It's hard to launch a new IP/system without on-going support. It may very well be a chicken-and-egg problem now, but if everything shipped in one wave, like originally planned, or if wave 2 came out within 6-9 months of launch, those retail expansions would have hit in a more timely manner.

5) Lack of early online support. No rules PDF for potential customers to read and judge the system. No way to post pictures of painted minis on these forums. No scenarios or other game material. Minimal support and errata. Minimal marketing (and, to be honest, their social media interaction has been challenging).

Don't blame the backers. PB has been their own worst enemy since this project funded.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:52 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:38 pm
Posts: 234
Others covered the other points, so I'm not going to rehash those. But this bit hasn't, and I feel it needs a response.

eliakon wrote:
...and with out sales of products issues of money again come up because there is/was only so much money raised by the initial Kickstarter.

This leads to a second feedback cycle. The game needs to sell units to finance the second wave... and needs the second wave to sell units.

My suspicion is that what has been produced is all that is going to get made and that the rest will come under the heading of 'some Kickstarters fail'.

There was only so much raised. And that money was to go towards completing the project. There should have been sufficient funds for both Wave 1 and 2, and the pricing of these, plus some contingency funding. While certain costs were stated to have risen (price of blanks was listed as higher than expected, and shipping costs were stated as expensive), there has never been any suggestion from PB that there wasn't sufficient money raised to cover the costs.

Any increased costs from delays are purely on PB. Faffing about for 3 years and then being surprised that prices have increased, isn't the backers faults.

Nor is choosing to spend on two waves of shipping. That's on Palladium as well. I understand that they had to make a business decision as to whether to hold off on manufacturing until it was complete like the initial plan suggested, versus splitting the waves, and making sufficient money in the retail release to cover the additional costs that splitting the waves would entail. Backers shouldn't be on the hook if that gamble failed to pay off.

Which leads back to my initial point. There's never been any suggestion from PB otherwise. It's all been sunshine and roses, "keep the faith", it's all coming, we just need to get our ducks in a row. To say that 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 is the year of Robotech, and then turn around and say money is the unassailable problem, and has been since 2014, would be a huge breach of trust. Because the Kickstarter T&C require them to be working on completing it. If they can't complete it because of lack of funds, that's intentionally misleading backers.

And that's what the current group of vocal backers are asking. If there's insufficient funds to finish the project, backers have a right to know that that is the case, and where the money was spent, that the initial funding was insufficient to provide all the materials promised. They also deserve to know when PB realized that the campaign couldn't be completed with the funds raised.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:03 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:14 pm
Posts: 301
I just wanted to make a further point that may not be readily perceived by someone outside of this Kickstarter,

At this point of time Palladium have not declared this project a failure and that they are working on it - one can argue about them properly evidencing this - as a result they effectively hold the whole project in limbo, until thet make good or finally admit failure,Obviously the solution the vast majority want to see is the production of the remaining models.

However, until they actually formally announce that they have failed, there is nothing anyone can do to actually force them to move any faster. I would have thought that having accrued such an expanded negative press , was a great incentive but somtimes there is a feeling that it is water off a ducks back - we are always late why change now? Might just also explain the increasing numbers of vocal dissedents over on the KS forums and elsewhere.

Once they do declare failure then the game changes and at least as backers we would have the contract agreement that they must show what they did, what they spent and explain in full why they could not complete. They also must arrange an equitable settlement with all the backers of this project.

I feel that if Palladium had to give explanations at this point then their reputation in gaming circles would sink without trace, hence the unending fillibusting hoping that either the backers all just go away or the planet Niburu finally arrives, either way they are simply delaying to save their own necks.

Is this good enough, is this what I would call basic customer decency/service not by a long stretch of even Kevin's imagination.

Will anything change? Do not hold the presses just yet.


Last edited by wilycoyote on Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:32 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:33 am
Posts: 49
<quote>
From what I can tell there is no engagement on either side.
There are battle lines drawn and a certain hyper-vocal segment of the backer population has made it so that Palladium is unable to speak to anyone, at all on this issue. When there is official word, it is denounced when there isn't word it is denounced. Palladium can recognize a catch-22 when they see it.</quote>

But this is the point....there has been NO word on anything of any substance about movement of wave 2 since about late 2015. Sure...comments on quotes...but we can't share yet. Pots are boiling, but we can't share yet. Look...here is a 3 year old render. We need you support for Gencon, help us with demos. Hey...quotes still being worked on...hold on folks.

It is not the backers(vocal or not) that arent open to communication and dialog with Palladium...but once again...they are the ones with all the details on where things are and what can or cannot be done. The Robotech Tactics community is waiting to hear something...anything...that is real substance. They have open ears...it is Palladium not speaking up. Not the audience not listening.

<quote>I am not privy to all the technical details, but from my understanding there were issues with some of the model designs and the choice was 'get out the wave one' or 'wait another six months to a year to get out everything' and that the decision at the time was to get out what they had then and get out the rest when it was finished.</quote>
Since this kickstarter is an investment, and not a pre-order...should the investors have not had a say on this key decision? Also, this is a slightly more detail then I recall seeing before, interesting if true.


<quote>
The costs so far have already significantly exceeded the revenue brought in by the Kickstarter and there simply isn't a source of money to finance the remaining portion of the project. </quote>
While this is certainly highly suspected from the backer community, you wrote as to a point of fact, not supposition. It is a shame if this really is the case, and proves the lying on Palladiums part the last few years if true.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:24 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:18 pm
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I think you want square brackets there.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:12 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 8875
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
(quotes in previous post corrected and atributed)

wizardofthenorth wrote:
eliakon wrote:
From what I can tell there is no engagement on either side.
There are battle lines drawn and a certain hyper-vocal segment of the backer population has made it so that Palladium is unable to speak to anyone, at all on this issue. When there is official word, it is denounced when there isn't word it is denounced. Palladium can recognize a catch-22 when they see it.


But this is the point....there has been NO word on anything of any substance about movement of wave 2 since about late 2015. Sure...comments on quotes...but we can't share yet. Pots are boiling, but we can't share yet. Look...here is a 3 year old render. We need you support for Gencon, help us with demos. Hey...quotes still being worked on...hold on folks.

It is not the backers(vocal or not) that arent open to communication and dialog with Palladium...but once again...they are the ones with all the details on where things are and what can or cannot be done. The Robotech Tactics community is waiting to hear something...anything...that is real substance. They have open ears...it is Palladium not speaking up. Not the audience not listening.

And your missing the point again
When there was word, it resulted in direct attacks on those making the statements.
As I said, there need to be two sides to a conversation, and if one side is not willing to listen, then its not really worth the other side talking is it?
Or put another way... why should someone stay in an abusive relationship where they are going to be attacked for everything they do? Why is it their fault that the abuser is verbally abusing them? Why is it their job to deescalate the abuser?
Because that is where Palladium is.
They are, rightly or wrongly, in the position that their messengers are abused when they speak. Even those that have only the most tenuous links have been abused by the radicals. Thus, no there is not "open ears". Open ears requires being willing to hear what you don't want to hear. And that is not what is happening. What is happening is that if the messenger does not say what the radicals want to hear they are basically shot... that tends to cut down on the number of messengers willing to convey things.


wizardofthenorth wrote:
eliakon wrote:
I am not privy to all the technical details, but from my understanding there were issues with some of the model designs and the choice was 'get out the wave one' or 'wait another six months to a year to get out everything' and that the decision at the time was to get out what they had then and get out the rest when it was finished.

Since this kickstarter is an investment, and not a pre-order...should the investors have not had a say on this key decision? Also, this is a slightly more detail then I recall seeing before, interesting if true.

No.
It is not an 'investment'
Kickstarters do not work that way.
You give your money to the firm, who outlines what they plan to do with it. If you agree with that outline then you give them money, if you do not agree you do not give them money. Backers have no oversight or control of the project in any way, shape, or form unless the project explicitly states that they will be given such.
There was no such language in this project so, no you are not an investor and you have no say.
Which again is one of the reasons there is no communication. Unreasonable demands by one party tend to make communications difficult...

wizardofthenorth wrote:
eliakon wrote:
The costs so far have already significantly exceeded the revenue brought in by the Kickstarter and there simply isn't a source of money to finance the remaining portion of the project.

While this is certainly highly suspected from the backer community, you wrote as to a point of fact, not supposition. It is a shame if this really is the case, and proves the lying on Palladiums part the last few years if true.

A whole HOSTE of issues here in this one sentence here, but I will try to unpack them.
1) it would not be "lying". Palladium has said that they are continuing to work on the project and is trying to get wave 2 produced. If the requirements for the final production of this involve selling the units of wave 1 that have been produced... then that is not a lie. It is only a lie if they have stopped work on the project entirely.
2) this is a great example of the reason Palladium does not engage the community. A statement of "here are some problems with the financing." becomes "you are lying to us and have been for years.". When anything and everything is assumed to be done as an act of malice then there can't really be communication...because there is no one listeneing to what is being said.
3) to expand on #2. I will note that even in your reply here you trimmed out much of my post in such a way as to remove the context of my statement and doing so in such a way as to change the original statement. Once again, it becomes impossible to have a conversation with people if every statement is going to be taken out of context and used against people. If people are not interested in discussing entire issues but instead in winning sound bites... then that is not communication.
4) The radical backers should be the least surprised of anyone on the lack of exact details... after all they are the cause. Specifically when people publicly stated that they intended to file legal actions against the company and that they were collecting the statements the company made to prove their claims... then why in the world would anyone be shocked that specifics would suddenly be dropped. ANY lawyer could tell you that the first piece of advice to a client in a situation where you have been threatened by a person is to not engage that person further. Quite literally Palladiums hands are tied in some ways because as long as people are threatening to sue them, regardless of how spurious the suit would be, then they are not going to provide statements that can be misused against them. ESPECIALLY since as point #3 demonstrates there is a habit of taking statements out of context and using them against people.

TL:DR
Seriously people. Why would Palladium make statements that are simply going to be mocked, lead to more abuse, be taken out of context... by people that when their unreasonable demands were not met not only threatened Palladium but have already harassed an uninvolved party for the "crime" of having created a game.
When the fan base has demonstrated that they are willing and able to have reasonable and rational conversations...then I believe that conversation will resume. Until then...expect to get the same thing as always.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:19 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 8875
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
I would like to make an observation here as well.
When I read the posts that are put up as reactions to mine I see an interesting common thread...
...specifically those on the "inside looking out" tend to have a specific view of the issue.
And also tend to be dismissive of those that do not share that view.
While that view may or may not be correct...when those that do not share the view are dismissed out of hand it pretty much ensures a breakdown of communications.
No one is going to be able to communicate if two sides are talking past each other.
And if there is no willingness to even consider alternative views...then communications have already failed because at that point all that is sought is confirmation of what is already believed.

Myself? Do I think the project was handled badly?
Yes, I do
Do I think there should have been more communications, with more details?
Yes, I do
Do I think that there were failures on both sides that have made it basically impossible at this point for anyone to talk to each other?
Yes, I do
Do I have hopes that something will eventually break the impasse and allow for some sort of resolution?
Yes, I do.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:52 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:38 pm
Posts: 234
eliakon wrote:
I would like to make an observation here as well.
When I read the posts that are put up as reactions to mine I see an interesting common thread...
...specifically those on the "inside looking out" tend to have a specific view of the issue.
And also tend to be dismissive of those that do not share that view.
While that view may or may not be correct...when those that do not share the view are dismissed out of hand it pretty much ensures a breakdown of communications.
No one is going to be able to communicate if two sides are talking past each other.
And if there is no willingness to even consider alternative views...then communications have already failed because at that point all that is sought is confirmation of what is already believed.

Myself? Do I think the project was handled badly?
Yes, I do
Do I think there should have been more communications, with more details?
Yes, I do
Do I think that there were failures on both sides that have made it basically impossible at this point for anyone to talk to each other?
Yes, I do
Do I have hopes that something will eventually break the impasse and allow for some sort of resolution?
Yes, I do.

I understand your point, but I don't agree with it.

You argue that no matter what PB representatives have said, there's nothing but abuse from "the other side", and that therefore there's no point in communicating. Except, when PB HAVE communicated in a meaningful way, they've often been given some latitude by a lot of people, including those that are often fairly critical. It's happened several times throughout the history of the project. Including when Scott took over his current role. But then they trend towards vagueness, obfuscation and/or outright silence, and any goodwill evaporates.

Now, there are going to be some people dissatisfied regardless of the comment. But even at it's largest, I wouldn't put that at more than a few hundred. So, because of >5% of backers, communication stops? Expecting everyone in a group of 5300+ people to be passive, in light of the lack of progress, is wishful thinking of the highest order. Some people are going to be donkeycaves, and to punish people who aren't for those, sets a self-defeating progression, where more and more people get fed up.

And let's be clear, a lot of the hostility in recent weeks is at the fact that with a fresh start, there's been no progress, or at least no progress shown. Even if backers write off the period between Wave 1's release and Scott's taking of the role (and IMO, that's a big ask), there's been little to show backers that this is any kind of priority. Whether it be my personal bugbear (the ForceOrgs), or a lack of specific information regarding the process (there are many questions about the quotes process that haven't been answered), to showing real work on the Wave 2 models (the ZenInf and bases being the only real modified works), or a breakdown of what's ready to go.

The latter one was what Wayne promised more than two years ago, and while I'm not holding Scott to that, Scott made the claim in his first Update that end of year was possible. We know that's been blown up, but given that it'll take the better part of four months to go from "Start Your Engines" to "We're Shipping", that means that everything needed to be within two months of the start of manufacturing for that date to be accurate. Meaning most, if not all models need to be at the sprue layout stage, or at least the sprue breakdown stage, so that they can get 3D prints approved, and test sprues popped. If that's the case, why hasn't there been a followup to the 2.5 year old sprue breakdowns we got for the Glaug Eldare, Ghost, Lancer and Jotun?

Simply put, it's not the lack of communication that's the problem. It's the lack of meaningful communication. KDM was one of the most delayed Kickstarters of it's time. And it's communication was infrequent at best. Sometimes 3+ months at a time between Updates. But when there was an Update, it was filled with revised estimates, and massive amounts of showing what's been done, and why.

Which leads to the issue of prioritization. How often does "working on it" count? How many people are actively involved in this project? How many hours a week does each person involved in the project work on this project? It doesn't take much to do the math that unless there's a minute fraction of time being spent on this project, then there should be something significant to show. Again, KDM was massively late. But it was shown in great detail why. Which items weren't up to snuff and had to be redone. Which items needed to be tweaked and which were ready. PB's silence on progress indicates either they're not working many manhours on it, or that the progress they're making is being kept hidden for some reason.

PB don't appear to want to discuss any failures. And if it's not perfect, it shouldn't be shown. As if that'll stop criticism. Yet when they DID show progress, with the exception of SpartanGate, they've generally gotten a mixed to positive general response. It's the lack of these that's caused people that might have been more tolerant to become less so. Because while there are some people that will be overly critical, there's a LOT of critics that could be, and a lot more that could have been, but are so burned on it they won't be back.

And that's my point. The longer PB continue to not inform backers, the more people move from passive to angry, and the more people move from angry to irreconcilable. Your last question/answer says that you have hopes that something will eventually break the impasse. That simply can't happen from the backers side WITHOUT PB ramping up communication. Expecting angry backers to have an epiphany and break the cycle unilaterally and without any work from PB, is naive. PB need to bite the bullet and start trying to keep the passive backers from getting angry, and for keeping the angry from being irreconcilable. They need to ignore the irreconcilable, and just accept that they will have some people who are at that point.

But that doesn't mean 5000+ backers should be ignored (again, with meaningful, not just frequent, communication) because a few people won't ever be accepting of the project. And that can only happen if PB make RRT a priority. Which they haven't SHOWN any evidence of doing so. Even small things (again, Force Orgs, among many), would show at least some work being done.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:12 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 12492
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Force Orgs

Promised Conventional Forces Rules (also from two years ago)

Pdf rulebook

Ongoing FAQ/Errata

Real Organized Play program

Transparency on progress on wave 2

That's off the top of my head and none of it has come to pass. Its also the realization it wasn't going to that caused myself to wash my hands of wasting my time helping any further or with this game in general.

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of hte day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

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Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:43 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:38 pm
Posts: 234
jaymz wrote:
Force Orgs

Promised Conventional Forces Rules (also from two years ago)

Pdf rulebook

Ongoing FAQ/Errata

Real Organized Play program

Transparency on progress on wave 2

That's off the top of my head and none of it has come to pass. Its also the realization it wasn't going to that caused myself to wash my hands of wasting my time helping any further or with this game in general.

Yup. That's the core of the undisputed promises. There was also the painted gallery thing that was mentioned in that list too.

But there's also the kinda promises, like the Wayne Status Report, or the Invid (though the reason for the absence of the last seems pretty obvious).

And it's not like there hasn't been sufficient patience. These were all promised literally 2 years ago.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:41 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:33 am
Posts: 49
Well, in spite of everything I hadn't given up on Palladium until now. While I would never kick start a project of their's again, I do still have interest in some of their product ( I backed savage rifts), was planning more. Dead Reign was on my mind as well. While I know none of the above is necessarily an official statement from Palladium, based on past statements of KS, etc I do believe it accurately represents Palladiums feelings for it's customers( not just Tactics, but of their rpg customers as well). Until Palladium as a company learns to act like an adult it will continue to have these problems, and reputation.

And yes, sending some emails...even doing some 3d modelling, talking about quotes, reducing part counts as reasons for it not yet being produced, that 2016, 2017, and now 2018 are all the year of Robotech RPG Tactics while knowing you cannot actually manufacture the missing pieces because you have no money (if that is the case, Palladium hasn't said this officially)...yes...that is lying.


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