Where's the hype for RRT?

[MurderCityDisciple]

I thought I'd find a lot of activity, hubbub and commentary about Robotech Tactics here on the Home base of the game.

Is there a lack of enthusiasm now that it's finally on its way?

I haven't been on these forums for a long time and was kind of stunned how dead it seems here about the big game roll out.

I know there's been a lot of griping, but still, I thought this would be the place for folks to chit chat about the game, which is looking pretty good.

I hope the game isn't going to be dead on arrival.

[glitterboy2098]

right now we have too little info on the rules, points, etc to do army building, and aside from a few terrain projects, we don't have much on the hobby side of things to show off until we get miniatures. and that doesn't leave a lot to discuss, sadly.

[Jorel]

Palladium hasn't given too much positive to talk about yet. The responding threads to things on the KS pages tend to get locked.

[Seto Kaiba]

I thought I'd find a lot of activity, hubbub and commentary about Robotech Tactics here on the Home base of the game.

Is there a lack of enthusiasm now that it's finally on its way?

's probably more to do with nobody genuinely believing the game will be in their hands anytime soon, due to Palladium's history of overly optimistic estimates, and more than a little bit of seething discontent over what amounted to a rigged vote about selling at GenCon before the goods reach the backers.

Really, since this is the game's initial launch, I wouldn't expect "hubbub" until around 2-3 months after things finally start arriving at the homes of the backers. It'll take them at least that long to put everything together... though there may be a bit of grumbling about how time-consuming assembly is from those who are new to tabletop games.

[Forar]

What GB said. There's just not much to talk about. There's a leaked playtest document from last year, but it has enough holes in it that I'm actively hoping the last year saw significant changes and improvements. I can go over it point by point, but it'd just be more 'negativity', so I'm saving myself the time and trouble. Hopefully we'll have actual rules to discuss in 3 weeks.

Err... one way or another. >.>

There'll probably be plenty of questions, pondering and musing to go around once we have the full rule book available, and more to be done once people start proxy'ing some games on tables, or get their boxes in and assemble small forces to try out 50, 100, 150+ point games.

The real question is how the PB forums will handle the possible massive influx of new members, given that like a quarter of RRT threads end up locked.

Edit: Hyperbole detected for the hyperbole impaired.

[MurderCityDisciple]

Never have I seen what should be cause for celebration turn so sour.

How much of the nil vibe has to do with the way Palladium has been composing themselves versus the actual product?

I basically quit these boards and Palladium because of the way Palladium's reps here (and Fb) act; draconian, partisan, biased and immature.

Oh well, I hope things can at least go half way decent at Gen Con.

[Jorel]

Assuming there is even product there. Otherwise he created all that negative buzz for nothing.

[Phaze]

I don't know about you... But I'm Hyped!

[Jorel]

My excitement for this game has been tempered by the lies and the delays. I'm not really feeling this game or Palladium at this point.

[Lord Malachdrim]

I for one am still looking forward to this game being released. I don't comment here or else where because I know my reaction to some of the posters would be "mean" and we can not have that in this day an age, unless your doing that to someone else then it's just fine.

[rosco60559]

It's definitely rough to get hyped after the "vote" that just finished up or the lack of rules.

[MurderCityDisciple]

Just got done browsing some of the Kickstarter Comments....yikes.

Vitriol, pure vitriol a lot of it.
I guess I'm used to Palladium's goofy, overblown raising of the bar and EPIC level hyperbole.

Remind me never to p%ss off a miniature gamer...not only are they bright, but some of them, brutally relentless.

Is there a lot of security at Gen Con?

[Forar]

That's one of the risks of branching out to a new genre/product; attracting and dealing with entirely new groups of people is a double edged sword.

As for security, yes, Gencon has some, and considering the hundreds and even thousands of dollars that some people spend on tickets, lodgings and transportation, I can't imagine many people would be willing to risk getting thrown out (let alone arrested) just to take a swing at someone.

Hyperbole aside, frustration does not justify assault, I sincerely hope nobody makes such a stupid choice, and if they do that they are persecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

That said, I know of a couple guys who've got some truly biting t-shirts in the works. One doesn't need to break the law to make a point, and yes, that intellect/creativity combined with some (imo justified) ire are not something one wants to have turned on them.

[Phaze]

but the problem that Palladium never took into account is that miniature gamers are a whole new breed of gamers, and are nothing like RPGers , when it comes to their minis, they are ruthless and unforgiving, when it comes to releasing product, if your not bringing out new mini product once or twice a year your game will die and go into the game graveyard.

And unlike Palladiums fan friend Miniature gamers are a very unforgiving lot and if a company screws them over, they will destroy a company thru legal means like blogs and vlogs and so on. the sad part is now Palladiums fanboys are their own worst enemies, while the fanboys say everything is fine and copacetic the miniature gamers will not allow it to be so, and you think the forums get bad now, you haven't seen anything yet, if the game attracts miniature gamers they will be all over these forums like you wouldn't believe, and if NMI goes off with his heavy handed tactics he will be target one with that crowd.

So good luck Palladium your gonna need it.

Oh...they will be too busy beating down 10 year old kids (who just got the game because it looked cool on the shelf of the game store) in tournaments and celebrating the 'mighty' victory, or showing off their armies that only have the three required paint colors to make them legal to be entered in such tournament, or lementing that the tournament wouldn't allow him to field a Red Solo Cup as a Monster, even though he had glued cannons and missile launchers to the cup to make it WYSIWYG, or maybe even spending time creating terrain out of bendy straws and cardboard that looks 'totally' realistic.

As a long time hobbiest and miniature gamer (who has witnessed all of the above scenerios playout to some extent), I agree. They are going to need the good luck.

[Phaze]

Good One...Dang, How did i miss that?

Oh the fun I have had (NOT!) aurguing over the rules with someone who built his whole strategy around the grayest rule he could find (that was clerified in an errata or FAQ) so his X unit couldn't do Y and Z in the same turn. Then he would lose, or quit, pick up his pieces, then go spout off on some board about how the tournament screwed him. lol.

So, why do I like miniature gaming?

Oh, yea, I get to play with action figures...

[Spinachcat]

The real excitement will be all those GenCon buyers posting videos of their goodies before the KS backers get their boxes. That should be some great hype and certainly inspire some fun online discussions.

Though I am surprised there hasn't been any pre-GenCon hype on blogs about minis. I know Zachary the First does a photoshoot at GenCon and posts pics, hopefully he will get some nice RTT shots.

[MurderCityDisciple]

The real excitement will be all those GenCon buyers posting videos of their goodies before the KS backers get their boxes. That should be some great hype and certainly inspire some fun online discussions.

Though I am surprised there hasn't been any pre-GenCon hype on blogs about minis. I know Zachary the First does a photoshoot at GenCon and posts pics, hopefully he will get some nice RTT shots.

other then an email from GenCon saying PB will be there with the game along with other companies being there with the game, have not heard a single word about the game being there anywhere, have seen several top 10 lists of games people are looking for there on VLOG's and BLOGs but no robotech on the lists not even on honorable mentions.

My question is if PB thinks this event will make or break the game how come their not getting the word out? I'm hearing more about SJG, GW and so on and nothing about PB or Robotech.

I thought I read in an update (or somewhere)that Kev & Co. sent out quite a bit of advertisement for RRT.

Word of mouth coursing through the geek underground usually gets they hype juices flowing more than anything.

All the negativity and Palladium's rep may just be the source of RRT being an ignored non-entity.

[Phaze]

It really may have something to do with that we are still cutting it close.

One issue in delivery (storm, docks, customs, trains, trucks) and we may not see product at gencon. I honestly hope we do as I am hyped, but being a project manager in the 'real' world I see stupid delays all of the time, everything from a truck driver getting lost, to a Fed Ex cargo plane loosing an engine and having to divert. In the area of world wide shipping, crap happens. This is also the playground of Murphys Law...If you absolutlely need it overnight, you'll get it the day after.

Hype it too much without product on hand, and you will see riots, no matter who was at fault. Its the old homework problem...Its Monday and the paper is due on friday, so you plan to do it on thursday, but thursday your car breaks down or something bad happens that prevents you from completeing the paper. So you go to you teacher and use your excuse, but he asked "why did you not do it on monday night when I assigned it?" and fails you anyway.

While I have been called a Fanboy for supporting this game, I am still a realist. I hope all of the pieces fall into place and this works out, but there are a lot of pieces and they have to fall a fair distance. There is still a chance of failure.

[Seto Kaiba]

so your saying that PB should have waited till they had product in hand and the backers had their product, and product was going out to retail before showcasing it? not too mention all the proper hype to go with it.

That would, from a public relations and marketing standpoint, have been far and away the wiser move...

The game itself is no ambassador on Robotech's behalf, which means there's going to be very little real interest in the game without the intervention of more literal human ambassadors promoting the game in their local stores. With the Kickstarter backers feeling betrayed (whether they actually were or not is beside the point) and the large amount of negative word-of-mouth the game and Palladium are getting because of it, a lot of damage is being done to the game's future prospects.

If the players want the game to survive - I'm not even talking succeed, just SURVIVE - they're gonna have their work cut out for them rebuilding the game's public image. It won't be able to compete at all otherwise.

In a way... well, in a LOT of ways... not having product in the hands of the backers before GenCon is their worst case scenario. The smart way to salvage this would be to take a reduced crew to GenCon and then announce that the people who aren't going will be spearheading the distribution effort while the rest are at the convention.


EDIT: The problem may be more widespread than that, though... since it's looking like some folks have already begun to point the finger at the RRT Kickstarter and its poor backer relations for the very poor performance of Robotech Academy's Kickstarter.

[Phaze]

so your saying that PB should have waited till they had product in hand and the backers had their product, and product was going out to retail before showcasing it? not too mention all the proper hype to go with it.

I suppose in an ideal world...But with any project, you shuffle pieces around and plan your resources, but stuff happens. So you go back to your timeline and reshuffle. Project Management is about making things happen and planning for problems you do not see yet. Planning the project is important, but planning for failures is more important. What happens when this piece of the puzzle doesn't meet expectations? Do we accept the delay in completion, or is there a way to say on track without that piece in place? Sometimes you can plan for this, sometimes you get hit blindsided. Sometimes what you thought was easy, becomes the greatest challenge of the project.

"No plan of battle ever survives contact with the enemy." or in this case no plan of action survives first step of action.

I believe (my perception only, I have no direct contact with the inner workings of PB) PB has had significant issues with design and production. I also believe that they wanted this to go well, that they still want this to go well. I also believe this was larger than they anticipated, that right off the go...the pledge number was a boon and a beast. So it took them a while to understand the scope of what they just embarked on. 1.44 million is a large project, even for me who deals with large projects for a global major corporation.

I'm not defending the delays here ( as i want my toys now! <<tantrum>>) , but being in the unique position I am in (Project Manager, Gamer, Kickstarter Supporter) I can see, even with little outside information, how this happened. I don't believe it was intentional, I don't believe it was incompetence; I don't believe it was malice. I believe the biggest problem was capacity. They could not (some would say 'would not') marshal the right resources (be it manpower, specialized labor (artists and writers), or raw logistics) to pull this off on time.

Some would throw that out as incompetence, and that’s a good catch all for upper management to be able to point their fingers. But, truly to be incompetent, you must not have the skill to pull it off. I believe they had the right players in place, just not enough of them. I believe they have the right skill, just haven't had enough (quantity) of it.

Did they promise things that they could not deliver? Yes. I don't think it was intentional, but more like wishful thinking and an over exuberance to supply what the public was loudly demanding.

I don't have any proof of what I believe, just an outsider looking in, hopefully without the lens of malice or idol worship, looking for the unbiased truth.

We shall see when the minis do arrive. If they are good quality and the game is good, then we celebrate; if not... we as consumers can go someplace else for our entertainment. Ultimately money is our loudest protest. Personnally I am hoping for a long run for RRT, not in deliveries, but in game time.

[Spinachcat]

If the players want the game to survive - I'm not even talking succeed, just SURVIVE - they're gonna have their work cut out for them rebuilding the game's public image. It won't be able to compete at all otherwise.

THIS is the part that worries me the most.

Players are going to have to get out there and do lots of legwork for PB. As we see in the Megaversal Ambassador program, its hard to get people to do public demos of Palladium stuff.

The problem may be more widespread than that, though... since it's looking like some folks have already begun to point the finger at the RRT Kickstarter and its poor backer relations for the very poor performance of Robotech Academy's Kickstarter.

I've heard that and its an unfair accusation. The problem with Robotech Academy is that even Robotech fans can't trust Harmony Gold. They've done nothing worthy with Robotech for almost 3 decades. Shadow Chronicles was so incredibly disappointing after the years of hype. There's nothing in the RA KS that gives RT fans any real hope for the project.

[Seto Kaiba]

If the players want the game to survive - I'm not even talking succeed, just SURVIVE - they're gonna have their work cut out for them rebuilding the game's public image. It won't be able to compete at all otherwise.

THIS is the part that worries me the most.

Players are going to have to get out there and do lots of legwork for PB. As we see in the Megaversal Ambassador program, its hard to get people to do public demos of Palladium stuff.

Really, what worries me more is that a lot of backers live in areas where Palladium's normal stuff is "special order only". That's going to put some people off no matter how good a job the metaphorical ambassadors do in convincing people to try it.

If the backers do a really good job of selling it, it could persuade stores to start carrying it and some other Palladium stuff. If the game ends up the same "it's that one guy who plays ____" territory that's occupied by "Specialty games" like Battlefleet Gothic, it's not going to last because it doesn't have that large fanbase for the source material to prop it up. This game's future is going to depend heavily on convincing stores to carry it so that new people can get into it via impulse purchase. Word of mouth advertising just will not cut it in the long run, but it can do a lot to build the foundation for long-term success. (Of course there's also the fact that negative word-of-mouth can do a lot more harm than positive can do good, and negative is what the game and Robotech itself are currently swamped by.)

The problem may be more widespread than that, though... since it's looking like some folks have already begun to point the finger at the RRT Kickstarter and its poor backer relations for the very poor performance of Robotech Academy's Kickstarter.

I've heard that and its an unfair accusation. The problem with Robotech Academy is that even Robotech fans can't trust Harmony Gold. They've done nothing worthy with Robotech for almost 3 decades. Shadow Chronicles was so incredibly disappointing after the years of hype. There's nothing in the RA KS that gives RT fans any real hope for the project.

Let's please be fair about this, it's your opinion that that's an unfair accusation. Whether or not it's actually merited is going to be all but impossible to objectively verify due to the nature of the project (an internet-based crowd-funding setup).

There are, however, no shortage of accusations or theories that Palladium's less-than-satisfactory-overall handling of the Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter and the negativity it's stirred up among fans did a lot to discourage many of the people who would've otherwise pledged money to Robotech Academy's Kickstarter. I think it has probably done some damage, but not nearly as much as the overwhelmingly bad reputation Harmony Gold and Robotech already had among anime hobbyists. There are a lot of folks over on the RA Kickstarter's page pointing to there being very little backer overlap between those two RT Kickstarters.

In the end, I think the damage is going to be on both sides. The bad press RRT is getting thanks to all of the upset backers will discourage people from backing Academy if they connect the two titles, and a lot of the bad vibes and bad press being stirred up by Academy are going to ultimately hurt a backer-led initiative to sell RRT to the gaming community

[FoxFang]

so your saying that PB should have waited till they had product in hand and the backers had their product, and product was going out to retail before showcasing it? not too mention all the proper hype to go with it.

I suppose in an ideal world...But with any project, you shuffle pieces around and plan your resources, but stuff happens. So you go back to your timeline and reshuffle. Project Management is about making things happen and planning for problems you do not see yet. Planning the project is important, but planning for failures is more important. What happens when this piece of the puzzle doesn't meet expectations? Do we accept the delay in completion, or is there a way to say on track without that piece in place? Sometimes you can plan for this, sometimes you get hit blindsided. Sometimes what you thought was easy, becomes the greatest challenge of the project.

"No plan of battle ever survives contact with the enemy." or in this case no plan of action survives first step of action.

I believe (my perception only, I have no direct contact with the inner workings of PB) PB has had significant issues with design and production. I also believe that they wanted this to go well, that they still want this to go well. I also believe this was larger than they anticipated, that right off the go...the pledge number was a boon and a beast. So it took them a while to understand the scope of what they just embarked on. 1.44 million is a large project, even for me who deals with large projects for a global major corporation.

I'm not defending the delays here ( as i want my toys now! <<tantrum>>) , but being in the unique position I am in (Project Manager, Gamer, Kickstarter Supporter) I can see, even with little outside information, how this happened. I don't believe it was intentional, I don't believe it was incompetence; I don't believe it was malice. I believe the biggest problem was capacity. They could not (some would say 'would not') marshal the right resources (be it manpower, specialized labor (artists and writers), or raw logistics) to pull this off on time.

Some would throw that out as incompetence, and that’s a good catch all for upper management to be able to point their fingers. But, truly to be incompetent, you must not have the skill to pull it off. I believe they had the right players in place, just not enough of them. I believe they have the right skill, just haven't had enough (quantity) of it.

Did they promise things that they could not deliver? Yes. I don't think it was intentional, but more like wishful thinking and an over exuberance to supply what the public was loudly demanding.

I don't have any proof of what I believe, just an outsider looking in, hopefully without the lens of malice or idol worship, looking for the unbiased truth.

We shall see when the minis do arrive. If they are good quality and the game is good, then we celebrate; if not... we as consumers can go someplace else for our entertainment. Ultimately money is our loudest protest. Personnally I am hoping for a long run for RRT, not in deliveries, but in game time.

As someone who has also worked in Project Management, I agree with you. As I've mentioned before. Expectations were not properly managed from a community relations standpoint or from a design standpoint.

[Spinachcat]

If the backers do a really good job of selling it, it could persuade stores to start carrying it and some other Palladium stuff. If the game ends up the same "it's that one guy who plays ____" territory that's occupied by "Specialty games" like Battlefleet Gothic, it's not going to last because it doesn't have that large fanbase for the source material to prop it up.

Hey! I'm that one guy! I am a Mordheim player and I know exactly what you are talking about.

And that requires a dedicated and supported demo team by Palladium. There needs to be organized demos run at conventions across the country where dozens and hundreds of prospective buyers can "try before they buy" the game. If a store owner then sees people bringing RTT into their stores, then the owner will get excited about carrying the entire game line.

However, I do believe game stores will want to carry a few boxes, just because Robotech has some name value. How many stores depends on the minimum number of copies that Palladium's distributor for RTT demands the stores commit to. Hopefully, the distro will be thinking long term.

(Of course there's also the fact that negative word-of-mouth can do a lot more harm than positive can do good, and negative is what the game and Robotech itself are currently swamped by.)

I am most concerned about what happens when the rules hit. If they aren't rock solid and really rocking in actual play, then PB won't see much actual play in game stores or conventions.

If the rules and the minis are rocking, that will soften most of the anger.

[Spinachcat]

I have to disagree with that, since I have 2 very heavy anime/robotech/macross game/comic book stores by me and neither will carry the game.

That is hard to believe. Post their names and locations. It would be interesting for others to confirm that this is actually happening. I know that Alex M takes people's requests to have him call game stores who don't carry PB products.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but its hard to imagine a store that sells Robotech stuff would not feature a couple copies of RTT - it seems like free money since they already sell to a RT fanbase if they stock RT items. Perhaps they are just waiting for their distros to offer RTT instead of ordering through the KS for their initial product. Nobody is going to sell more copies initially than a store who already has a RT fanbase among their regulars.

I know the PR for the KS isn't great, but stores are all about catering to their customers. It doesn't make sense for any game store with a minis or RT fanbase to boycott the RTT.

[Seto Kaiba]

Hey! I'm that one guy! I am a Mordheim player and I know exactly what you are talking about.

Yeah, at my local store I was Battlefleet Gothic guy, and before that I was Dark Eldar guy, before Games Workshop gave us a codex update finally.

And that requires a dedicated and supported demo team by Palladium. There needs to be organized demos run at conventions across the country where dozens and hundreds of prospective buyers can "try before they buy" the game.

That's something that I suspect is a little outside of Palladium's capabilities, being that it's essentially just a "Mom and Pop" shop. Volunteer demo teams are all well and good, but there's gonna be a couple months of lag while the backers assemble and paint everything that they've done. The biggest problem I foresee with that is that a not many vocal backers have tabletop game experience, so their assembly and paint jobs are not going to be very impressive. (Surely you remember how awkward and fumbling everyone's first year or two of building miniatures inevitably is.)

Plenty of backers have the spare minis to host demos, but do they have the presentation skills to really sell the game?

If a store owner then sees people bringing RTT into their stores, then the owner will get excited about carrying the entire game line.

If a store owner sees people (MULTIPLE people) bringing RRT into their stores and others expressing vocal interest in it, then maybe. That there is the catch. There's not a lot of interest in Robotech period, and the game's coming out under multiple dark clouds of bad press.

I am most concerned about what happens when the rules hit. If they aren't rock solid and really rocking in actual play, then PB won't see much actual play in game stores or conventions.

I'll tell you right now and as an absolute guarantee, the rules will not be rock solid. No first-edition game's rules are rock solid. Palladium is... well... not renowned for the thoroughness of its playtesting or its game balance, so it's likely to be slightly worse in terms of rule "solidity" than that of a company that already has experience in the miniature game industry.

That is hard to believe. Post their names and locations.

It wouldn't surprise me, honestly... my local video stores now will not carry Robotech media at all, and my local game stores (Pandemonium, mostly) is primarily CCG and 40K territory, though others have stocked imported Macross and Gundam kits.

The thing to do might actually be to try and talk Barnes and Noble into carrying it, since they've now got a few stores around Palladium that are routinely stocking and displaying Gundam kits. The one at 5 mile and Haggerty had a whole display of nothing but Gundam kits.

[Seto Kaiba]

ROFLMAO...try the tabletop miniature game vets who are looking at the sprues and size of the actual miniatures and going "Not No, but Fething NO!"

... "Fething" no? It's been a very Dan Abnett weekend...

I haven't had the displeasure of seeing the sprues up close, on account of not being a backer and having zero intention of getting into the game (based principally on the fairly likely possibility that there won't be enough players to ever actually play it), but from what I've seen it's not THAT awful. Just that the minis have too many parts relative to their size and various unsubstantiated claims that assembly's so awkward it'd give even Tzeentch pause for thought... most of which I'd put down to inexperienced RT fans getting their first taste of tabletop gaming.

Heh, I pointed out to Harmony Gold that since Palladium in offical communications about RRT was blaming Harmony Gold (and later shots at ND until ND came back on board) for virtually everything wrong with RRT, why should anyone trust HG with any Robotech KS project.

At least Harmony Gold stopped just short of blaming either Palladium or Ninja Division for the crash-and-burn failure of Robotech Academy. They did, however, throw their advertising partner under the bus while trying not to directly blame the fans for the failure.

As for stores not carrying RRT...look no further than the Spartan debacle, which ended up being the tip of the iceberg. Owners of game stores who cater to tabletop gamers, one of which I know had planned to clear a couple of shelves for RRT when it got released, and they simply looked and said, "Not No, but Fething NO!"

My local stores have done exactly what I predicted... they paid almost no attention to RRT, and said that they'll handle any demand for it as a special order item, not regular stock. Not a promising start, but that would only be my neck of the woods, and no worse than anyone out here expected.

[godsgopher]

Frankly the "seeming" dead interest in RTT is to be expected. If this had been ten years ago everyone would have been amazed at another army sized miniature game coming into the market. No doubt some people would have said something to the effect of "I thought only Games Workshop could make miniature games". Today, miniature gaming is exploding. There have been so many new games of very high quality being leased the market is swamped!

While this does present a challenge to RTT it is one that can be easily overcome. How? Simple, we play the game. Yep, its that easy! People who see RTT being played in their store are going come over and look, there going to touch, and then their going to ask questions. What is this? Where did you get it? Wait there is an Anime about this? Well that's cool. So how much is it? Oh! its a Bizzillion dollars. Hu... well its cheaper than Games Workshop. Do you guys play here often? (translation if I buy stuff can I play with you?)

So if you want to see "Hype" then your going to have to convince the gaming community its worth there time.

[rosco60559]

Godsgopher, I agree playing the game will spark some interest. Problem with that comes in the form of stores willing to let you in, grab space and play.

As for the cheaper than gw remark, no it isn't. 2 VF series is $36 each, so a full squad is $72, destroid squads for rdf starts at $32-60 depending on what's being fielded. So a basic game will cost you 104-170 depending on what you start with if you don't get the starter box. 10 gw marines 38, and it can be broken down to 2 squads, add a character unfortunately at $30 you have a legal army to begin with. Just using the marines as the base example since they have way too many factions and I'm going off just the figures. Both systems starter sets are around 100 bucks, if you saw b_s's unboxing video there's a ton more building to do, that alone can turn people away.

Now as for factions which can help keep the game going rrt is up to what 3 but it's really more like 2, that didn't work out to well for starship troopers. One faction normally all ways won, by the time the 3rd was introduced to try and even things out the game was gone. Gw has enough variety on both their main systems that no singular faction drags things down. So until it's more than just rdf and zentraedi rrt may have a rough go at it.

[jaymz]

My local stores have done exactly what I predicted... they paid almost no attention to RRT, and said that they'll handle any demand for it as a special order item, not regular stock. Not a promising start, but that would only be my neck of the woods, and no worse than anyone out here expected.

Which since you live PBs backyard is not a good thing....

[Seto Kaiba]

Frankly the "seeming" dead interest in RTT is to be expected.
[...]
So if you want to see "Hype" then your going to have to convince the gaming community its worth there time.

Sorry for the aggressive edit, but I wanted to cut right to the most important bit.

Yes, the "no sell" reaction was only to be expected because Palladium partnered with a company that has very little presence in the tabletop gaming industry, and they're trying to break into a glutted market with the Robotech property's preemptive negative reputation thanks to all the times Harmony Gold has up and screwed over the BattleTech fans.

It's going to be down to the backers to get some recognition and acceptance for the game... but as they tend to be newbies to the tabletop gaming hobby, who are already balking at having to actually assemble and paint their miniatures, the overwhelmingly negative press the game has already received thanks to all the controversy is only getting worse thanks to the addition of the whining.

This game has a big hole to dig itself out of, and we're still not even to "Day One" release status...

Godsgopher, I agree playing the game will spark some interest. Problem with that comes in the form of stores willing to let you in, grab space and play.

I'm not sure how stores out your way are, but the ones out here (including my favorite haunt) don't give a damn what game you play in their gaming hall as long as you maybe buy something or at least frequent the vending machines. They know it's free advertising.

I don't think that's gonna be a significant obstacle to RRT. I think the big obstacle is going to be the way experienced tabletop gamers are going to look at the amateur effort of the backers and say "What in the name of the warp am I looking at?".

As for the cheaper than gw remark, no it isn't. 2 VF series is $36 each, so a full squad is $72, destroid squads for rdf starts at $32-60 depending on what's being fielded.

On a per-unit basis, that definitely favors Games Workshop... online, a full Tactical Squad is $40, including the sergeant and optional weapons, and additional blister packs of 3 space marines are just $10. That's a lot more value for the money, and the cost-vs-quantity goes down once you get to the starter boxes, the Space Marine starter box basically giving you a free Scout squad, assault squad, drop pod, and transfers.

One faction normally all ways won, by the time the 3rd was introduced to try and even things out the game was gone. Gw has enough variety on both their main systems that no singular faction drags things down.

Not in the crunch, anyway... but in the fluff, there's still plenty of outrage directed at Your Spiritual Liege, Matt Ward for the Ultrasues Ultramarines and Khornate Knights Grey Knights.

My local stores have done exactly what I predicted... they paid almost no attention to RRT, and said that they'll handle any demand for it as a special order item, not regular stock. Not a promising start, but that would only be my neck of the woods, and no worse than anyone out here expected.

Which since you live PBs backyard is not a good thing....

Well, a fair amount of that it's because it's Robotech. My local store DOES stock Palladium products, albeit they're on the bottom shelf of a tall bookshelf smushed way in a little alcove at the back, so you'd never find them unless you specifically went looking... but at least they're there.

They only do the Robotech stuff as special order, because nobody asks for it... the one copy of the 2nd Edition Robotech RPG they had sat on the shelves collecting dust for FOUR YEARS. Unless their one Robotech requester (me) specifically asks for it, they're not gonna carry RRT. I'd be surprised if they even knew it was coming out.

[Seto Kaiba]

Heh, my favorite rules debate was one based on a difference in writing style by GW authors, where "removed as a casualty", "removed from play" and "removed from play as a casualty" were argued to be three different and distinct things in 40K. Of course, it favored certain codices written by a certain author, with the funniest part being the decision tree on dealing with the new Necron WBB (RP/EL) rules where sometimes you couldn't take the waiting to be rezzed markers off the board if a squad was wiped depending on how the last model was "removed", and sometime the Necrons could even lose a roll on certain "deaths" for the EL models.

Come to think of it, that's going to be another issue... rules clarification.

Games Workshop has gotten into a pretty good habit of posting printable errata sheets for their codices and core book on their website in a timely fashion (and updated relatively frequently). Palladium doesn't have an existing process for doing that, and they ARE going to need to do it... and before anyone runs off to claim I said the game is bad, all I'm saying is no first-edition game is flawless. There WILL be red ink. They need a way to get that red ink to the players in an efficient and timely manner. The lack of answer from Palladium on this is not going to augur well for when the inevitable happens.

The method I keep coming back to as a good idea is not just releasing it as PDFs, but actually printing up "stickerrata" the way Macross Chronicle did for minor printing errors... a sheet of self-adhesive stickers that contain the revised paragraphs, which you simply stick over the existing (flawed) ones and correct the book without having to have everyone lug around a stack of errata printouts or buy a new copy of the rulebook.

[Warshield73]

I have been looking at other minis games over the last few months (as I am new to the hobby and have no interest in any others) and I am going to have to agree with you. Even with all the hours and months of play testing some corrections or even just changes will be necessary.

They are going to have to have an online method of people asking for rules clarifications (not the forums) and then some place where people can download the errata.

Granted, they have errata for existing RPG books on the main page but I don't think that will be enough for this game.

[jaymz]

They are? Did they announce this?

[rosco60559]

Seto,
In my area there are 4 shops around me. The closest 2 within 20 minutes of me, 1 has no where to play yet, the other does more card games, not much room for anything other than 3x3 tables, and only special order pb stuff. The further 2 are 45 minutes away and both have tables. The first you need to reserve table time almost a month in advance, they do stock most of what pb has in print but their stock doesn't get replenished as fast as you would hope. The last shop is new(been around just over a year) and the owner is a fellow backer. They only have used pb books, he's not sure if he'll stock rrt.

[Spinachcat]

So how much is it? Oh! its a Bizzillion dollars. Hu... well its cheaper than Games Workshop.

Bwahaha!!! That's so awesomely true!!!

[Seto Kaiba]

I have been looking at other minis games over the last few months (as I am new to the hobby and have no interest in any others) and I am going to have to agree with you. Even with all the hours and months of play testing some corrections or even just changes will be necessary.

To be fair, that was what's called a "sucker bet".

Warhammer 40,000 is in its 7th Edition now, and they're STILL fighting a (losing) battle to maintain balance while adding new content and addressing rules exploits and other issues like unclear verbiage. If the big fish need to produce pages of errata for every update and new rulebook that comes out, it's a safe bet that the RRT game will need reams of fixes and errata, as it's a first edition from a company that's not experienced in tabletop gaming. There's naturally going to be a trial and error period while they try to get their stride.

They are going to have to have an online method of people asking for rules clarifications (not the forums) and then some place where people can download the errata.

And how... the sensible approach is .pdf errata on the website and, if they're sneaky, publishing updates in the Rifter the way Games Workshop does with White Dwarf.

Seto,
In my area there are 4 shops around me. The closest 2 within 20 minutes of me, 1 has no where to play yet, the other does more card games, not much room for anything other than 3x3 tables, and only special order pb stuff. The further 2 are 45 minutes away and both have tables. The first you need to reserve table time almost a month in advance, they do stock most of what pb has in print but their stock doesn't get replenished as fast as you would hope. The last shop is new(been around just over a year) and the owner is a fellow backer. They only have used pb books, he's not sure if he'll stock rrt.

O_o

You need to reserve a table almost a month in advance? I'm not sure if that means your store has a huge and active gaming community, or just not much space. Out my way, my local store's got maybe 3/4 of its floorplan devoted to rooms of nothing but tables, with big racks of scenery and so on for public use. I've almost never had to wait for a table there, the exception being tournament days (when you can't find the room to BREATHE, let alone sit down).

[zyanitevp]

If the backers do a really good job of selling it, it could persuade stores to start carrying it and some other Palladium stuff. If the game ends up the same "it's that one guy who plays ____" territory that's occupied by "Specialty games" like Battlefleet Gothic, it's not going to last because it doesn't have that large fanbase for the source material to prop it up.

Hey! I'm that one guy! I am a Mordheim player and I know exactly what you are talking about.

And that requires a dedicated and supported demo team by Palladium. There needs to be organized demos run at conventions across the country where dozens and hundreds of prospective buyers can "try before they buy" the game. If a store owner then sees people bringing RTT into their stores, then the owner will get excited about carrying the entire game line.

However, I do believe game stores will want to carry a few boxes, just because Robotech has some name value. How many stores depends on the minimum number of copies that Palladium's distributor for RTT demands the stores commit to. Hopefully, the distro will be thinking long term.

This is why I want to include you on the demo discussions- thank you for the support and the input!

[Battle Damage]

Warhammer 40,000 is in its 7th Edition now, and they're STILL fighting a (losing) battle to maintain balance while adding new content and addressing rules exploits and other issues like unclear verbiage. If the big fish need to produce pages of errata for every update and new rulebook that comes out, it's a safe bet that the RRT game will need reams of fixes and errata, as it's a first edition from a company that's not experienced in tabletop gaming. There's naturally going to be a trial and error period while they try to get their stride.

Keep in mind that, though 40k is probably the best known system, this situation does not have to be the norm. DBA has been around since 1986, and should release its third edition later this year. At the other end of the spectrum, Saga has been around since 2011 and was written by one guy and was his first published game. It has three expansions and a spin off game, was originally written in French. It has about one page of errata. Whilst we should expect some level of adjustment, we should also have an expectation that a 1.4 mil game should have a decent amount of rigor.

[Mike1975]

Warhammer 40,000 is in its 7th Edition now, and they're STILL fighting a (losing) battle to maintain balance while adding new content and addressing rules exploits and other issues like unclear verbiage. If the big fish need to produce pages of errata for every update and new rulebook that comes out, it's a safe bet that the RRT game will need reams of fixes and errata, as it's a first edition from a company that's not experienced in tabletop gaming. There's naturally going to be a trial and error period while they try to get their stride.

Keep in mind that, though 40k is probably the best known system, this situation does not have to be the norm. DBA has been around since 1986, and should release its third edition later this year. At the other end of the spectrum, Saga has been around since 2011 and was written by one guy and was his first published game. It has three expansions and a spin off game, was originally written in French. It has about one page of errata. Whilst we should expect some level of adjustment, we should also have an expectation that a 1.4 mil game should have a decent amount of rigor.

Well that is kinda contradictory. $ = Good rules set and lots of playtesting? I'll have to file that under the "What in the world gave him that idea?" file because that is something I've not see anybody try to equate to before. Not only that but this was all done while comparing 40K the GW multi-million product line.

Yeah, we already have the rules. Are they perfect? No? Can they be? Depends upon what you are looking for personally and what you want at the end of the day. I've had this argument with many people who wanted smaller action and detailed combat to super-duper larger patio or parking lot sized battles. In all the messing with the rules I have like 7 things that could use clarification and none of them are major issues, more like tourney nitpicking to reduce rules lawyering in tournaments.

[Seto Kaiba]

Keep in mind that, though 40k is probably the best known system, this situation does not have to be the norm. DBA has been around since 1986, and should release its third edition later this year. At the other end of the spectrum, Saga has been around since 2011 and was written by one guy and was his first published game. It has three expansions and a spin off game, was originally written in French. It has about one page of errata. Whilst we should expect some level of adjustment, we should also have an expectation that a 1.4 mil game should have a decent amount of rigor.

Er... I gotta say I'm with Mike1975 here.

No company is ever going to get the rules perfect on the first try. There's that old saying that no plan of battle ever survives contact with the enemy, and that's no less true for Robotech RPG Tactics. It's only natural that there would be bits of language the writers thought were clear that players won't find as clear, rules exploits that crop up from the sheer volume of material making up the game rules, and all kinds of other issues.

Even a well-playtested release is STILL going to have issues, just because it's not possible to playtest for EVERY possible scenario the players could throw the rules into. The timeliness of rules updates and other errata simply varies by publisher, and the amount of errata varies with the complexity of the system and experience of the publisher. Considering Palladium's writing tends to be a bit vague at the best of times, that there'd be a lot of errata (and just looking through the first few threads in this forum, there's gonna have to be a lot) is practically a given.

Is that a bad thing? No... it just means nobody's perfect.

[Mike1975]

Shoot, I have people wanting to clarify rules so you can perform hand to hand against a building....

[Battle Damage]

Shoot, I have people wanting to clarify rules so you can perform hand to hand against a building....

What's the issue with that? MJ's question was quite reasonable, especially the situation he mentioned with being on top of a building.

[Mike1975]

Shoot, I have people wanting to clarify rules so you can perform hand to hand against a building....

What's the issue with that? MJ's question was quite reasonable, especially the situation he mentioned with being on top of a building.

No problem at all. I just find it funny when some (not referring to you by the way) complain about the rules and then want some of the weirdest things defined. Compared to many rules sets. I'd say this is a pretty good set. Could it have been better if HG allowed the pledgers to see them and vet. Definitely. Considering what we do got I think we can be happy with it and some errata will lock things down and make the rules even tighter and more fun to play.

[Battle Damage]

Well that is kinda contradictory. $ = Good rules set and lots of playtesting? I'll have to file that under the "What in the world gave him that idea?" file because that is something I've not see anybody try to equate to before.

Sorry to go back, but that wasn't my point. Hence the counter-example of Saga, which was a one-man-effort. I did poorly in linking my last sentence about the 1.4mil. Perhaps I would have done better by saying that with that amount of money and the length of the development process then there should be scope for a really well coordinated playtest process. If I found myself in charge of a project that had twenty times the resources I expected, I'd be using some of those resources to hire more help as I would be very concerned that (in terms of customer base and expectations) I'd bitten off more than I could chew. If one didn't want to hire a project manager, even an extra office flunky could free up other staff effort for playtest coordinating. Or work-up of organised play networks, going to China to check on production or whatever. I recognize that after the file fiasco those resources may have dried up - who knows.

TLDR: I think we need to be cautious with being overly forgiving of sloppy rules in first editions. There are exceptions. Resource availability could help this.

[Seto Kaiba]

Perhaps I would have done better by saying that with that amount of money and the length of the development process then there should be scope for a really well coordinated playtest process. [...]

The length and comprehensiveness of the play-testing process is not dependent or even related to the total budget of a project or the length of development... it's pretty much entirely down to the whims of the game developer and what they consider "good enough". Ideally, the amount of play-testing done before products are released should be proportional to the complexity of the game, but we don't live in an ideal world, which is why you can almost always speak of errata as an inevitability... the quantity of which is usually at least in rough proportion to the complexity of the game (i.e. the more game you have, the better the odds that something will be broken and the greater the number of things that will potentially be broken).

If I found myself in charge of a project that had twenty times the resources I expected, [...]

You'd probably do things a lot differently from how Palladium did them... and even then, there's nothing like any reasonable guarantee that you'd do any better than they did. Of course, if you were a newcomer to the tabletop gaming hobby as Palladium's staff and many backers are, your play-testing process would probably be pretty insufficient to detect the kind of issues tabletop veterans would pick out at a glance.

TLDR: I think we need to be cautious with being overly forgiving of sloppy rules in first editions. There are exceptions. Resource availability could help this.

I think it's more that we need to be aware that RRT is Palladium's first (and only) foray into a different genre of gaming from what they're accustomed to... so a certain initial awkwardness is expected beyond what'd be acceptable in a first edition of a new game from a company that has experience in tabletop games.

Don't be overly forgiving... be realistic about who made the game.

[godsgopher]

I'm of the opinion that its simply going to take a while for this game to become the game we all hope its going to be. I believe the initial game is honestly going to be a disappointment to most gamers. However, I do not believe the game will stay that way.

Palladium is very new to miniature gaming and many of the people who worked on this are completely new to the format. Not to mention that all the millions in the world will not buy you the wisdom and knowledge you need to make a great game. I don't need to illustrate for most of you the differences between a Roleplaying Game and a Miniature game. (Though I am perfectly willing to do so for anyone who is unaware of them, please just contact me) But I do believe in the people who are working on this project. Why?

Because I have spoken with them. I have heard the honest and sincere enthusiasm in their voices for this project. Furthermore because they are human beings and therefor greedy. Let me be even more succinct. There is money to be made. They know they have a product with a loyal following. But the only way were going to willingly open our wallets is for them to give us a game we really enjoy.

Love and Money, if you can tell me two greater motivators for product creation I'm all ears. But its not going to happen overnight. So I counsel patience and support. Good criticism intelligently made and demonstrated is very valuable. Telling someone only a three eyes myopic rift spawn would write a rule like such-n-such is anything but constructive. Positive encouragement will be your greatest weapon in getting whatever you want changed, changed.

[godsgopher]

Well, given that the last few releases of GW rules & codices have been for the fairly obvious of purpose of promoting sales of new models and/or models that haven't been selling well. Also, a potenial side purpose of undercutting factions that GW doesn't care to support anymore, although GW learned from the Squats and they no longer officially "kill" a faction anymore.

Non Sequitur?

Not that I find fault with a single thing you have said. GW's slow motion demise seems to be a wonderful opportunity for the entire miniature industry.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, given that the last few releases of GW rules & codices have been for the fairly obvious of purpose of promoting sales of new models and/or models that haven't been selling well. Also, a potenial side purpose of undercutting factions that GW doesn't care to support anymore, although GW learned from the Squats and they no longer officially "kill" a faction anymore.

To be entirely fair, that's the way it is for pretty much EVERY miniatures game... the game exists to sell itself, which makes it only naturally to try and exploit rules updates and other new content like campaigns or major tournaments to promote the parts of the line that aren't selling as well as the others, to launch new lines and other content, etc. Games Workshop is simply going about it with the lack of subtlety for which their two big game lines are memetically renowned.

As far as using it to undercut factions Games Workshop doesn't care to support... that's never happened to any faction in the game. It happened to the Zoats, but they were Tyranid auxiliaries. The Squats got excised not because Games Workshop didn't want to support the line (in fact, they admit it was selling well) but because they felt they'd accidentally made it into a joke army of midget space bikers and wanted to try again to "do justice to" the dwarf archetype IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE! That's how we got the Demiurg in BFG in the next edition, but they haven't yet made the jump back to the WH40K tabletop game (on the Tau side this time), in the main because management is leery about taking races from WFB and dumping them into 40K (which is also why we haven't seen anything for the Hrud, who are basically space-Skaven).

(Though that didn't stop the various Black Library authors from throwing fairly blatant references to Squats into flagship titles like the Ultramarines series and even having a Squat supporting character in the Ravenor and maybe Bequin portions of the Inquisitor trilogy of trilogies.)

All the same, it's not something that Palladium and Ninja Division have the wiggle room to do with RRT... it has too few types of miniatures and only two factions...

Too much to expect about things like contacting experts and getting second opinions if needed rather than openly tell people that have experience. I can say flat out that if I'd been in charge, yeah, I'd have done it a heck of a lot better.

Well, to be entirely fair... Palladium probably reckoned that they HAD engaged the services of experts when they brought in Ninja Division.

[Alpha 11]

Too much to expect about things like contacting experts and getting second opinions if needed rather than openly tell people that have experience. I can say flat out that if I'd been in charge, yeah, I'd have done it a heck of a lot better.

Well, to be entirely fair... Palladium probably reckoned that they HAD engaged the services of experts when they brought in Ninja Division.

Heh, I meant someone who actually can ramrod a real world project. No this does not mean hiring an artist to do art for another project and claiming that there is a "Robotech KS project guru" on the job.

Then, who would you have gotten, because it looked, to me at least, ND has experience in the field.