Where's the hype for RRT?

[Battle Damage]

Too much to expect about things like contacting experts and getting second opinions if needed rather than openly tell people that have experience. I can say flat out that if I'd been in charge, yeah, I'd have done it a heck of a lot better.

Well, to be entirely fair... Palladium probably reckoned that they HAD engaged the services of experts when they brought in Ninja Division.

Heh, I meant someone who actually can ramrod a real world project. No this does not mean hiring an artist to do art for another project and claiming that there is a "Robotech KS project guru" on the job.

Then, who would you have gotten, because it looked, to me at least, ND has experience in the field.

"Involved" is not the same as "exerting control" or even "managing". Who was managing this thing?

[Forar]

I believe that would be Palladium. While HG is apparently a gatekeeper that things must pass by, I think that's more of a thumbs up/ thumbs down with feedback sort of thing. Actual management is, as far as I'm aware, what Palladium's primary role is.

[Seto Kaiba]

On GW, I'll note most recently the Sisters of Battle and Black Templars as two factions that have been slated for...minimalization shall we say.

Eh... they're still supporting Sisters of Battle, and the Black Templars are more a "variant armylist" than an actual faction of their own, and they flipflop on support of those every new edition or campaign they run...

True, in a way, 40k has too many factions to actually support in the manner that GW has employed with super fascist legal tactics, because many minor factions could be done with a page or three of rules and linking them to another codex.

That's what they tried to address with moves like merging the variant armylists back into the main books of their respective factions and having those doctrine lists. Sort of a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too maneuver.

Palladium and Ninja Division kind of have the opposite problem with Tactics. They don't have a setting that supports every faction fighting every other faction, and there's never more than two factions present at any given time for a war... they have so few factions that it's actually limiting to the game. Barring "renegades", which isn't really a faction of its own with unique miniatures, every setup is a two-horse race. Variety, as they say, is the spice of life...

I haven't looked lately, do they have another Bequin out? I'm torn on it, because as hyper competent as Eisenhorn is versus the serious cluelessness of Ravenor as a working Inquisitor against higher level beings, everything Ravenor does will either be futile or actually doing Eisenhorn's work for him. Only way for another result would be that Eisenhorn has become as insane as Qixos did.

Not yet, but the second Bequin Trilogy book is supposed to come out next month... and if the cover they've shown around for it is anything to go by, I think Eisenhorn is headed down the Quixos route. As settings go it's not one where suddenly sprouting devil horns and hanging out with literal demons is likely to mean you still hold the moral high ground...

Heh, I meant someone who actually can ramrod a real world project. No this does not mean hiring an artist to do art for another project and claiming that there is a "Robotech KS project guru" on the job.

Isn't that Ninja Division's hat? I mean, they weren't really a big-time player in the tabletop games industry, but they're not forever skirting the edge of oblivion like the Robotech franchise is. They brought in an experienced team-up of two miniatures studios to help develop a tabletop game.

It's anybody's guess how the game ended up being handled the way it did, since they haven't really told us much of anything about their development process.

[glitterboy2098]

setting wise though, you do have 'cross-generation' fights..

later reconstruction era allows for ASC mecha/vee's vs zents
first year of invid arrival on earth means ASC vs Invid
fall of the tyrolian empire allows for bioroids and zents vs invid
UEEF campaign in the 2030's allows for UEEF vs bioroids (since they evidently fought their way across the empire a bit before meeting the regent's invid)

and since this is based on RPG continuity, the invid occupation of earth allows for pretty much everyone vs everyone, albeit on a smaller scale.

UEDF mecha vs invid might be tricky to storyline, but i see no reason why a group couldn't develop a story for it.

[Seto Kaiba]

setting wise though, you do have 'cross-generation' fights..

But we don't have that now... and we may never have it if things don't pick up significantly.

Right now, as it stands, Robotech RPG Tactics is a two-horse race. While that's theoretically OK, they don't have nearly the brand recognition to depend on that the Star Wars game does, so they've got the unenviable task of trying to push this game on a glutted market full of more established properties with little variation in play.

[WilhelmRochRedDuke]

So why does the rulebook have three factions if its a two-horse race?

[rosco60559]

It's not really 3 factions. If you go by the time line of the program and books the rdf doesn't really change too much through the whole thing. The zentraedi after khryon's death pick up like minded humans and you get the malcontents. So looking at it that way there is only 2 factions at any given time. The malcontents list just reminds me of playing the current 40k rule set, why yes I'm playing marines with eldar, tau, and more marines(but a different flavor) all in the same list.

[Seto Kaiba]

So why does the rulebook have three factions if its a two-horse race?

What rosco said... the "third" faction is really just using the miniatures from the two actual factions in one army. It's no different from the allies system in WH40K. You might have units from two different forces together in one army, but at the end of the day that's all it really is... units from two different factions on the same army list. Their rules and stats haven't changed.

[Forar]

Gotta say, I agree. If I run a "Guild" crew in Malifaux and half of it is made up of mercenary "Outcast" figures, that's not a new faction.

If there are "Malcontent _______" cards with minor adjustments to the stats (different upgrades, small variations on individual figure stats based on bolting on extra armour, poor maintenance, etc) I could see an argument for it being a third faction. But "the faction that can combine the other two factions" isn't really a strong selling point for me.

At the very least, having a "Malcontent Unit" available of any sort would help the case. Just being mixed Zentraedi and RDF figures has potential to mix some interesting mechanics, but it feels like a stretch to call it 'the third faction'.

Invid are a Faction. The Masters are a faction. Unique units, different mechanics, etc. "Destroids and Support Pods on the same card", not quite as much.

[Mike1975]

Gotta say, I agree. If I run a "Guild" crew in Malifaux and half of it is made up of mercenary "Outcast" figures, that's not a new faction.

If there are "Malcontent _______" cards with minor adjustments to the stats (different upgrades, small variations on individual figure stats based on bolting on extra armour, poor maintenance, etc) I could see an argument for it being a third faction. But "the faction that can combine the other two factions" isn't really a strong selling point for me.

At the very least, having a "Malcontent Unit" available of any sort would help the case. Just being mixed Zentraedi and RDF figures has potential to mix some interesting mechanics, but it feels like a stretch to call it 'the third faction'.

Invid are a Faction. The Masters are a faction. Unique units, different mechanics, etc. "Destroids and Support Pods on the same card", not quite as much.

Well....guess what? The Malcontents do not have any of the upgrades as the other factions. You do not have the missiles and bomb upgrades that the UEDF has but you get Improvised Bombs that are not as good. The ground units like MPA can purchase GU-11's for their units. So there are enough differences to have a definite flavor. I can understand the confusion though since most people have not seen the Stat Cards yet. Here is a view of mine with the stats and upgrades from the official cards. So while the Malcontents can get some good units from each side and have some good ground unit upgrades they lose the best from each like the Phalanx upgrades or the Long Range Missiles for the Gnerls. In exchange they get the Monster Upgrade.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing

[Mike1975]

dang double post

[Forar]

So important it needed to be said twice?

[Seto Kaiba]

Well....guess what? The Malcontents do not have any of the upgrades as the other factions. You do not have the missiles and bomb upgrades that the UEDF has but you get Improvised Bombs that are not as good. The ground units like MPA can purchase GU-11's for their units. So there are enough differences to have a definite flavor.

Was that meant to be a counterargument?

Really.

So, what makes the alleged malcontent faction unique and different is that they can use... the exact same weapons as the regular factions... or slightly worse versions of same? It took me a while to figure out how exactly to reply to this, because all that's happened here is that you've confirmed the various comparisons between "Malcontents" and the allies system in WH40K's 6th and 7th editions are absolutely spot on, to an actually quite surprising degree... which means we're right, Malcontents are not a proper faction separate and distinct from the two real ones.

[Mike1975]

Well....guess what? The Malcontents do not have any of the upgrades as the other factions. You do not have the missiles and bomb upgrades that the UEDF has but you get Improvised Bombs that are not as good. The ground units like MPA can purchase GU-11's for their units. So there are enough differences to have a definite flavor.

Was that meant to be a counterargument?

Really.

So, what makes the alleged malcontent faction unique and different is that they can use... the exact same weapons as the regular factions... or slightly worse versions of same? It took me a while to figure out how exactly to reply to this, because all that's happened here is that you've confirmed the various comparisons between "Malcontents" and the allies system in WH40K's 6th and 7th editions are absolutely spot on, to an actually quite surprising degree... which means we're right, Malcontents are not a proper faction separate and distinct from the two real ones.

You can see it however you desire to. I'm not here to define "Faction" for anybody. I'm just simply pointing out that there are differences in how each side is played and their stats. People can decide for themselves if that is enough to constitute a different faction or not. Take a look as the stat cards I linked to and judge for yourself. All 3 groups/factions can be seen on that link.

[McPherson]

I think that maybe the sticking point on what makes a third faction is coming from different backgrounds / mindsets.

On one hand you have the more Story / Role play minded who believe that a different flavour with a few minor tweaks but otherwise the same units constitutes a third faction (The Malcontents)

On the other you have the more Wargaming / Miniatures minded who believe that to be a separate faction you need your own models and rules.

Both sides have a point, I think from a sales standpoint that the game really doesnt have a third faction, people buying the figures are either buying Zentradi or RDF figures, thats what is going to be on the shelves and what people see. From a storytelling and gaming standpoint the Malcontents does open up some interesting opportunies for scenario play, campaigns and flexability, and for 'new' gamers who just want to buy the models they think look cool without having to follow a strict force org chart a nice way of playing with the more 'strict' minded purists.

In the long run the game will need further factions - Palladium have talked about wanting to do the other timeframes which would definetly sort that problem out as long as they make it so the different generations are cross-compatible instead of doing something (Which I think would be stupid) like giving into peer pressure and changing the scales (especially for Invid Saga) because people on the internet want nice big Cyclones and Invid troopers to paint (For the sake of fairness, I would love some 28mm Cyclones but not at the cost of being unable to do cross-generational gameplay).

- End of Line -

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] I think from a sales standpoint that the game really doesnt have a third faction, people buying the figures are either buying Zentradi or RDF figures, thats what is going to be on the shelves and what people see.

That's the one that counts... the factor that's going to decide whether RRT is commemorated as a success, or merely remembered as a failure. The Star Wars game can make do with just two factions because that setting is about as iconic and memorable as it gets, and the game is very self-contained with little in the way of learning curve and practically no assembly requirements.

RRT is going to be fighting an uphill battle because it's modeled on more traditional tabletop games such as Warhammer 40,000 or Warmachine, where assembly, painting, and customization are as vital to the hobby as playing the game. People are going to look at it and ask "Where's the variety"? Most minis are just slight variations on the same basic designs, so even a completed army doesn't exactly have tons of variation... and with just two possible armies to choose from, there's not a ton of appeal there. There is a VEEEEEEEEEERY good reason that the heavy hitters have a half dozen or more different factions.

[godsgopher]

The only real source for new factions within Robotech is going to be the other Robotech era's. Adding Robotech Masters and Invid with the corresponding alternative Earth forces could boost the game up to six factions. Of course that adds complications as well. I think there is a sound argument that the third Robotech arch is an entirely different form of combat from the first and would likely require a different method of play to model accurately. To be certain its something needing to be thought about.

[Mike1975]

I think that maybe the sticking point on what makes a third faction is coming from different backgrounds / mindsets.

On one hand you have the more Story / Role play minded who believe that a different flavour with a few minor tweaks but otherwise the same units constitutes a third faction (The Malcontents)

On the other you have the more Wargaming / Miniatures minded who believe that to be a separate faction you need your own models and rules.

Both sides have a point, I think from a sales standpoint that the game really doesnt have a third faction, people buying the figures are either buying Zentradi or RDF figures, thats what is going to be on the shelves and what people see. From a storytelling and gaming standpoint the Malcontents does open up some interesting opportunies for scenario play, campaigns and flexability, and for 'new' gamers who just want to buy the models they think look cool without having to follow a strict force org chart a nice way of playing with the more 'strict' minded purists.

In the long run the game will need further factions - Palladium have talked about wanting to do the other timeframes which would definetly sort that problem out as long as they make it so the different generations are cross-compatible instead of doing something (Which I think would be stupid) like giving into peer pressure and changing the scales (especially for Invid Saga) because people on the internet want nice big Cyclones and Invid troopers to paint (For the sake of fairness, I would love some 28mm Cyclones but not at the cost of being unable to do cross-generational gameplay).

- End of Line -

Both sides having good points was a reason that I did not want to point out what "my" definition of Faction is but let them use their own. Most people do not have the stat cards and assume the units are the same in every way from UEDF to Malcontents or Zen to Malcontents. The basic stats are BUT the upgrades are for the most part different. So it all depends on if that is enough to constitute a "Faction". Similar to Iron Wolves vs Blood Ravens.

The rules from 1st Gen to Southern Cross will be the same. The difference is that some rules will have to be added to reflect the Southern Cross having units with shields, the Bioroids with the Speeders, and a few other things. I'm pushing for the same scale. Time will tell. The idea of having 6mm and one or two 28 mm cyclones in the same add-on pack did come up.

[Forar]

Yeah, from what I remember of the show/novels, the third era, while ending on a climactic invasion, was basically the 'skirmish' era. Small scale unit tactics, a struggle to survive, repair and rearm, always running on fumes and praying to make it to the next safe area.

Potential for some campaign stuff in there too, and obviously the RPG, but "painting up ninety Cyclones that are all 6mm tall" will only go so far for me.

On the up side, they should only be 6 pieces each. 8, tops. Maybe 10 for the Saber version.

[Seto Kaiba]

The only real source for new factions within Robotech is going to be the other Robotech era's.

Hence the problem being something not likely to go away...

Of course that adds complications as well. I think there is a sound argument that the third Robotech arch is an entirely different form of combat from the first and would likely require a different method of play to model accurately. To be certain its something needing to be thought about.

Or, as a more immediate concern, the game's scale will make doing miniatures for the latter two sagas VERY difficult unless they break scale.

Robotech RPG Tactics was done in 1:285 scale, meaning that while a VF-1 Valkyrie and other Macross Saga miniatures stand about 38-44.5mm (1 1/2" - 1 3/4") tall, miniatures for the mecha from the other two sagas are going to be very small indeed. In that scale, an AGACs would be about an inch and a quarter tall, while the Logan and Spartas would only be about 3/4 of an inch, and most of the New Generation miniatures apart from the Alpha and Beta would only be about a half-inch tall or less... with the Scout and Cyclones both being about a quarter inch tall.

While that's not unfeasibly small for a miniatures game (GW's Epic Armageddon is also 6mm scale), that's a scale at which the level of detail the designs contain would make prevent "pose-able" miniatures from being made and would probably be too difficult for many new-to-the-hobby players to work with.

(It's one of the reasons I privately suspect that there are no serious plans to pursue this game beyond the Macross Saga... the choice of scale practically precludes its continuation into the later sagas.)

[rosco60559]

the only real hope of new factions is if the megadamage worlds of pb's other games get mini's of their own. the ref is the same as the rdf just upgraded equipment. other than the "human" faction there's only really the masters, zentraidei and invid. not a ton of choices if the scale get's messed with since most the mecha in the 2nd and 3rd gens get smaller.