Backers get ignored

[Kryptt]

From the gama vids it seems like PB is going to stick with their questionable manufacturing choices. It's made worse with the GW style pricing. They copy that from GW but not the quality part. So much for the dream. Already there's people canceling there preorders with online retail shops.

[Jorel]

I don't think Kevin is in charge of handling the backers or communication with them. I also think when he says YOU in the press release he means all Palladium customers including the Backers. It is just the wrong platform and I think people want to see that kind of info on the Kickstarter page first.

[jaymz]

It doesn't help that there were indications there would be an update on the KS yesterday and here we are not with no update at all yet....

[Alpha 11]

Real world constructive criticism got ignored.
Posts where a spade was called a spade were deleted and banned. I guess we cannot hurt Kevin's feelings.

I'll try again, note that I hold back from truly speaking bluntly and calling a spade the fracking shovel it is.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=716:palladium-booksr-weekly-update-april-4-2014&catid=52:weekly-updates&Itemid=183

UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™

Molds are being cut. Waiting for the final prototypes of the Valkyries for our final approval. Making the last fine tuning to text, rules, decals and other stuff. Can hardly wait to get the First Wave into manufacturing! When we have something much more definitive YOU will be the first to know.

Despite promises to address the issues related to the badly cut sculpts shown on the Kickstarter updates, the first news the backers hear are hidden over here. So, the molds are being cut, despite the very serious problems with most of the shown minis, which translates to the REAL WARGAMERS who assemble, paint and play in REAL TABLETOP MINIATURE GAMES get kicked to the curb and blown off by Kevin.

You know, CUSTOMERS, who just happen to also be the Front Line Advertisers, Demonstrators and Promoters of RTT. Good job, dude.

Oh, did you notice that a miniature (Valkyrie) that according to the Kickstarter page was finished with preproduction is still awaiting approval. You know what that is called in the Real World. Exactly what the backers got told about "addressing issues".

Welcome to The Official Palladium Books Gencon Suicide Pact.

A.K.A. - How To Turn A Potential Top Shelf Tabletop Miniatures Wargame Into Short Term Money Grab.

If you are talking about the resent video from the trade show, may I remind you those were prototypes, and made from a 3d printer. They were not, for most, if not all of them, final, these are what will be basing the molds on. Some had even been put together, taken apart, and put back together again. So unless I really missed something or I am remembering wrong, that is what happen.

[Seto Kaiba]

A.K.A. - How To Turn A Potential Top Shelf Tabletop Miniatures Wargame Into Short Term Money Grab.

Eh... would you be horribly offended if I called a spade a spade and suggested that part of the problem is that the backers have unrealistic expectations from two companies which are new to tabletop games and can't hide their inexperience AND tell you what's going on at the same time?

I mean, seriously... if you went into this thinking that Robotech RPG Tactics was going to start as a "top shelf" tabletop game to rival anything by Games Workshop or Privateer Press, you set yourself up for some pretty massive disappointment. Games Workshop and Privateer Press have some of the best model making talent in the industry at their disposal, and it took them years of work and multiple editions to get their stuff to the level of quality we enjoy today. Even if Palladium's partners had access to that level of talent (and they don't), you still wouldn't be getting top-class models in the game's first edition... and to be blunt, that's no indictment of their work, the first WH40K minis weren't exactly much to look at either.


As far as short term cash grabs go... this is Robotech we're talking about, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to classify the entire series as a short term cash grab that suffers from posthumous delusions of grandeur.

[Forar]

Eh... would you be horribly offended if I called a spade a spade and suggested that part of the problem is that the backers have unrealistic expectations from two companies which are new to tabletop games and can't hide their inexperience AND tell you what's going on at the same time?

Two? Ninja Division is made up of people who were involved with Cipher Studios and Sodapop Miniatures. While neither of these are titans in the industry, they're not nearly as 'new' to miniatures. And while Palladium might be new to the genre, they are working in a field that has decades of history. "If I reached far it was because I stood on the shoulders of giants" and all that; there's no reason for them to reinvent the wheel here, but they did have an opportunity to avoid mistakes made by others in the past, and learn from advances over the decades to make things better, faster, and cheaper.

I mean, seriously... if you went into this thinking that Robotech RPG Tactics was going to start as a "top shelf" tabletop game to rival anything by Games Workshop or Privateer Press, you set yourself up for some pretty massive disappointment. Games Workshop and Privateer Press have some of the best model making talent in the industry at their disposal, and it took them years of work and multiple editions to get their stuff to the level of quality we enjoy today.

Then maybe PB should've been a little more reserved in describing their initial venture as having "mouth watering minis" and "world class sculptors" involved. They talked a big game, and while that drew in plenty of backers and money, now they're reaping the results of those statements.

Even if Palladium's partners had access to that level of talent (and they don't), you still wouldn't be getting top-class models in the game's first edition... and to be blunt, that's no indictment of their work, the first WH40K minis weren't exactly much to look at either.

Origin gets a lot of crap because it's not Steam, which might seem unfair, and comparing Origin now to Steam 5 or 10 years ago is a much more positive comparison, but when you enter a field that has giants striding about, you need to be able to at least try to keep stride with them where they are.

Bluntly, very few people are going to compare the RRT figures NOW to GW figures from the 80's. They're going to compare them to ones released recently. And everyone knew that going in. It'd be flat out crazy and irresponsible to do anything but research the hell out of the competition and account for those issues in the business plan. "Okay, so they're an amateur first attempt, but we'll charge a little less per figure, I'm sure it'll all work out."

ND and PB have been talking a good game and aiming high over the last fifteen months, after reporting feeling confident they could deliver one to two months early. Not only did they miss that, but they're now 3 months late, have a delivery target 4 months away (7 months late), and let's be really honest, if they're just starting to tool molds now (they are), 4 months to tool, run test sprues, fix issues/run QA, run half a million (not necessarily much of an exaggeration) sprues, box 'em, load 'em into a crate and onto a ship, cross an ocean, get through customs, march 'em over to the warehouse, package up thousands of boxes and start firing them out, it's not looking good. Doubly so given that August is a cluster-shenanigans and probably eats up a couple of weeks (possibly more depending on how the post-con crud is this year), which means that 7 months late could become 8 or 9+.

[Seto Kaiba]

Two? Ninja Division is made up of people who were involved with Cipher Studios and Sodapop Miniatures. While neither of these are titans in the industry, they're not nearly as 'new' to miniatures.

They might not be new to the industry, but their inexperience in working on a project they're not 100% in control of, and with multi-part mecha designs, is painfully evident.

And while Palladium might be new to the genre, they are working in a field that has decades of history.

Just because the field has decades of history behind it doesn't mean newcomers are necessarily going to have paid attention to that history and learned from it.

Then maybe PB should've been a little more reserved in describing their initial venture as having "mouth watering minis" and "world class sculptors" involved. They talked a big game, and while that drew in plenty of backers and money, now they're reaping the results of those statements.

Oh, absolutely... but then, that kind of unnecessarily hyperbolic pre-release hype is often said to be more or less standard practice for Palladium. So why would you believe it for Robotech RPG Tactics when their vicious cycle of over-promising on their pending releases is so well-known that people call them on it here on their own site all the time? Fool me once, shame on you... fool me three hundred times?

Bluntly, very few people are going to compare the RRT figures NOW to GW figures from the 80's.

Of course, I'm just pointing out that a rough start isn't exactly unheard-of in the wargaming minis... it's a fact of life. If you went into this expecting minis on the same level as Games Workshop's Citadel finecast or Privateer Press's stuff, then you set your expectations unrealistically high. (I realize only too late that this is basically one, unnecessarily long "I TOLD YOU SO" due from back when the Kickstarter was new.)

ND and PB have been talking a good game and aiming high over the last fifteen months, after reporting feeling confident they could deliver one to two months early. Not only did they miss that, but they're now 3 months late, [...]

Again... what's new about this situation? Apart from the involvement of a third-party co-developer, I mean.

I may not be as old a hand here as many of you, but even I've noticed that when Palladium announces a release date you guys usually respond with something akin to "Pfft! Yeah right." Why would you expect something different from this? We keep coming back to a theme of unrealistic expectations... and a very puzzling set of unrealistic expectations at that, considering how often the other denizens of these forums take Kevin and co. to task for missing the release targets they set.

The problem with this view is that there is at least one "second string" miniatures company out there producing very good quality minis for a reasonable price that exceed the quality shown for virtually all the RTT minis shown.

But how long have they had to refine their process before they got to what you're looking at now? Five years? Ten years? Twenty? Seriously... you have to remember that this is RRT's FIRST RUN, and these aren't exactly being made by the miniatures industry's first string players.

This isn't inexperience, it is **** Poor Prior Planning combined with arrogance. The information is out there and for Robotech, as the response to this Kickstarter shows, Palladium could have gotten better work for free from even B grade artists.

While I wouldn't phrase it in terms quite so caustic, isn't this exactly what I pointed out above in my reply to Forar? Palladium misses their self-set release targets all the time, sometimes to an extent that shocks and horrifies me (being that, in my line of work, missing a target by that much is enough to get a man canned and/or figuratively crucified). As far as the art quality goes, the same is true for the regular game lines they've got. I have four artists working for me on my Macross projects for free, who are putting out higher quality art works like it ain't no thing. (Being that I can't draw worth a damn, I'm a bit envious of their casual skill.)

So you are saying that I was an idiot for expecting the great company of the 80s to give us anything more than 80s quality product? You might be right there.

No, I'm not saying that... I'm saying you're judging Palladium by an unfairly high set of standards. You'd made it clear you were disappointed with Palladium and Ninja Division for not producing a first-class mini lineup and game on their first try and after an aggressively short development cycle. You absolutely do have the right to expect something of quality for your money, especially after the big game they talked, but you have to temper those expectations with a little realism. It's not going to be perfect in the first edition... it never is, especially with miniatures games. The first run is always going to be rough, a little awkward, and a little unpolished. If the game lasts, these things will get better in time.

(Mind you, I'm not defending Palladium in this... as far as I've seen, the game game has very little chance of lasting long enough for things to improve. Not only is the tabletop minis industry struggling to bounce back from the recession, but most of the folks buying it don't seem to be buying it to play RRT... they either just want a display piece, or want to use the minis for BattleTech. I will be shocked if they make it to a Masters Saga expansion.)

[ShadowLogan]

Two? Ninja Division is made up of people who were involved with Cipher Studios and Sodapop Miniatures. While neither of these are titans in the industry, they're not nearly as 'new' to miniatures.

IINM Seto could be referring to these two parties, both of whom can muck things up:
Palladium Books
Harmony Gold

Harmony Gold though has to approve things connected with Robotech that Palladium does, and AFAIK they haven't done Miniatures in the past (Revell had a model line and other Robotech products, but IINM those pre-date HG's RT involvement). As for Palladium they aren't entirely new to miniatures, they still sell their old Rifts Miniatures, but that wasn't a separate game engine AFAIK.

because I knew the quality of ND's minis plus I used my memory of the solid company of Palladium Books from the 80s.

Palladium's ability to set and meet deadlines over the past 10years (or so) may not be up to the same caliber it was in the 80s (I'm not familiar with what it looked like in the 80s, I didn't really get into RPGs until the mid 90s). They routinely push release dates back now for everything but the Rifter (which may be due to the way they edit the Rifter than their other books).

[Forar]

I may not be as old a hand here as many of you, but even I've noticed that when Palladium announces a release date you guys usually respond with something akin to "Pfft! Yeah right." Why would you expect something different from this? We keep coming back to a theme of unrealistic expectations... and a very puzzling set of unrealistic expectations at that, considering how often the other denizens of these forums take Kevin and co. to task for missing the release targets they set.

You know this attitude isn't helping, right? "Oh, they're always late, so people shouldn't hold them to their deadlines, and it's our fault for believing in them that they might finally fix the issues."

Also, there are roughly 11,000 people signed up for these forums. There are nearly 5,500 backers. I'd bet you anything that only a tiny fraction of those 5,500 have even visited these forums, and an even tinier fraction yet visit regularly. This section is a ghost town. The unofficial fan forum that fired up during the campaign and during the half year or so it took PB to make this subforum is a ghost town. The Board Game Geek subforum for this game is a ghost town. Bluntly put, there doesn't seem to be any strong connecting point for the community outside of the KS campaign itself.

Does that absolve the backers from doing their research? No, but it doesn't give PB a free pass either. There are people I talk to on another forum that backed despite Palladium's involvement. They were aware that there were risks, but Ninja Division was talked up as doing all the heavy lifting, and so awesome, and PB was only giving input on the rules... and then the campaign ended. And it became the all PB show, all the time.

Palladium is terrible with timelines. That doesn't absolve them from the responsibility to communicate with their backers and set realistic goals. Sure, we got a great deal, maybe as low as 1/4 MSRP. They also got a roughly 1.4 million dollar loan, interest free, and have had access to those funds for the last year. It's not a one way street, both sides take on risks, but KS's are indeed unproven products.

It shouldn't be something to just casually dismiss, 'oh you guys should've known PB couldn't hit a deadline with a shotgun from point blank range' is rather 'damning with faint praise' here. "Oh, you didn't read between the lines! When PB said that they hoped to deliver in October or November of 2013, they meant October or November of 2014! I can see how people would make that mistake!" is not a helpful stance to take.

Might as well just rename this thread "victim blaming, the gamer way".

A miniature wargaming system needs to build a community to survive. People need to be able to find opponents, and ideally a tournament structure should grow into place, local and larger scale alike. Ninja Division went to Adepticon last year, and showed off the game, talked things up, gave demos. Far as I'm aware, Palladium didn't even send someone to Adepticon this year. Biggest miniatures wargaming event of the year, and they skipped it.

That alone is pretty damning right there.

Palladium fans may be forgiving for the never ending delays and apologies and relish in every murmur where Kevin goes into detail about his breakfast, but this game is attempting to reach out to a fanbase of which those are only a small portion of the Venn Diagram.

Bluntly put, this was an opportunity to expand and grow some of those people into PB fans, to turn over a new leaf. And it seems to have been squandered. Which is a real shame.

[jaymz]

They did go to GAMA though.......er......yeah.

[Forar]

They did go to GAMA though.......er......yeah.

That they did. Which is also a good idea. Offhand, Gama, Adepticon, and Gencon are probably the biggest miniatures gaming events in north america, if I'm not mistaken. Going to Gama was totally a good call, but while building retailer and distributor relationships is important, the gaming community needs to see it as well. They've talked about how the rules are done, so show 'em off!

Give the community some gameplay videos, a few extra mechs to field test on the 18 inch tables, a few characters to show off a mechanic they've only glanced at to date, etc.

[Seto Kaiba]

You know this attitude isn't helping, right? "Oh, they're always late, so people shouldn't hold them to their deadlines, and it's our fault for believing in them that they might finally fix the issues." [...]

Please forgive me for not quoting the entirety of your (largely justified) expression of discontent... but I never said you should excuse or overlook that they're behind schedule and not living up to all those grandiose promises they made. All I said was that you should have seen it coming. This is not an unprecedented development. Indeed, you yourself asserted in this very post that it's more along the lines of the status quo. Half of what they promised was profoundly unlikely given their track record, and the other half was profoundly unlikely on a common-sense basis given that it's a new game planned and executed by relative newcomers.

You have every right to be upset. You SHOULD voice your discontent. I don't think there's anything in your issues with their handling of the game that could be called unjustified... but what you shouldn't do here is act like this is anything new or unexpected from Palladium. Why? Because, by your own admission, it's not.

That alone is pretty damning right there.

The most damning thing is the Robotech name on the box... a name that is, in its native industry, a watchword for abject failure and wholly unjustifiable arrogance. That the rather niche RPG written by our boys at Palladium is arguably the only true, self-perpetuating success the franchise has ever had in going on thirty years should also have served as a warning that things were not likely to go well... because, for Robotech, they never do.

Bluntly put, this was an opportunity to expand and grow some of those people into PB fans, to turn over a new leaf. And it seems to have been squandered. Which is a real shame.

Quite frankly, if that was their aim they would've been far better served to make a RIFTS tabletop game.

[jaymz]

Quite frankly, if that was their aim they would've been far better served to make a RIFTS tabletop game.

My plan is to kitbash the rules for Rifts myself

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes, I can hold Palladium up to higher standards of miniature manufacturing. Why? Because the artists you need to make miniatures are not chained up in GW's dungeons away from everyone else. [...]

True, the artists who could do a quality job of designing the miniatures aren't chained up in the dungeons at Games Workshop's UK office... but they're also not working for Palladium Books or Ninja Division, so the end result is effectively the same. These artists want a little job security, and that's not something that RRT can offer for all kinds of different reasons, not the least of which being Robotech's failure prone history and it being Palladium's first go at a miniatures game.

Most especially since I invested in the Kickstarter to get a viable, high quality, tabletop Robotch wargame.

Caveat emptor's a real pain, eh? Never mind that "Robotech" and "viable" are two words that fate has conspired to keep mutually exclusive for the past thirty years. Now you know why I took a wait-and-see approach with the game.

So, you would say that since Palladium appears to be choosing to go with GW pricing for less than optimal miniatures based on a bad scale model kit that Palladium should be giving out refunds? [...]

No. What you say you invested in the Kickstarter to get is not, literally speaking, what they promised to deliver. They promised to deliver a tabletop Robotech war game. Neither the game's quality nor its long term viability were stipulated in the Kickstarter you funded. I don't recall them making any promises on the Kickstarter regarding setting their price point below that of other, much more mainstream tabletop games either... but then, I didn't pay close attention to the Kickstarter for various reasons.

As far as what was actually said in the Kickstarter, apart from missed deadlines they haven't broken any (important) promises (at time of writing)... so demanding a refund may be a bit premature. So long as a miniatures game is delivered, they've kept up their end.

(I realize it's not a satisfying answer, nor the one you want to hear, but it IS the truth.)

What isn't being realized, I can afford to lose the money, it has been gone for a while, what I cannot stand pertains to the destruction of the idea of a Robotech tabletop game, which every indicator by Palladium makes it their goal.

See? This is unrealistic expectations again.

I mean, c'mon... it's a Robotech project, for pity's sake. Where those are concerned, failure isn't just an option. Most of the time, failure is the ONLY option. You'd think the past thirty years would be evidence enough for the safe assumption to be that any new development will not be a world class operation.

[ShadowLogan]

not the least of which being Robotech's failure prone history and it being Palladium's first go at a miniatures game.

This is NOT exactly Palladium's first go/connection to a miniature game from a certain POV as they have experience with elements:
-Minatures themselves, Rifts has a slew of them from the 90s (AFAIK no rules on use).
-Ruleset, their "Deluxe Revised Recon RPG" line does include optional miniature rules. RECON isn't part of the megaversal system, I am not familiar with the game either, so it may or may not have intended the user(s) to use generic miniatures (not unreasonable given the setting). Someone more familiar with Recon will have to comment/fill you in further, I am just stating that rules exist.

Most especially since I invested in the Kickstarter to get a viable, high quality, tabletop Robotch wargame.

No you invested in the Kickstart for the chance to get a viable tabletop game produced. Kickstarter is really like any other form of investing, it isn't a sure thing that it will produce something.

what I cannot stand pertains to the destruction of the idea of a Robotech tabletop game, which every indicator by Palladium makes it their goal.

If it was Palladium's only goal maybe, but RT is not Palladium's cash-cow in this day and age. Their ability to set and meet goal/deadlines lately is also know to be treated as a joke when announced.

[jaymz]

The only thing is, as far as I can tell on the KS's ToS, is if they do not produce anything they are on the hook for refunds to all of the backers....

[Morgan Vening]

The only thing is, as far as I can tell on the KS's ToS, is if they do not produce anything they are on the hook for refunds to all of the backers....

Coupled with the often sited "Delivery dates are estimates, there is no official deadline", means that as long as a creator never officially cancels the project, there's never any point at which it's not produced. Very nice Catch-22.

[jaymz]

Yes that is a failing on the side of Kickstarter. They should have previously stated what a reasonable delay could be.

Whenever is not a deadline. nor is it an estimate.

[Forar]

The only thing is, as far as I can tell on the KS's ToS, is if they do not produce anything they are on the hook for refunds to all of the backers....

Eh, to be clear, that message is more of a warning/reminder that failure to deliver may result in legal action from the backers. And yes, it can cause exactly that, but Amazon/Kickstarter keep themselves out of that fight. It's on the backers, individually or as a collective to go for their money, should things come to that.

And I wouldn't call it a failing. Their goal is to unit projects with potential backers. They'd need a world class legal department that dwarfed some small nations if they wanted to handle that kind of caseload. And probably require KS to quadruple their fees, would would kill the viability of the system.

[jaymz]

Agreed but they certainly should have set some kind of guideline as to what constitutes a reasonable time frame.

Again, "whenever" is not an estimate let alone a deadline.

[Forar]

No argument there. Snags and delays happen, that's totally a thing, but something like "project creators much agree to deliver projects within 2x (or 3x, or whatever) their delivery time frame, failure to deliver within that timeline means they agree to refund any backer who requests it", in a wording that would be rather solid should a backer wish to direct legal council their way.

It'd give project creators a vested interest in projecting reasonable/realistic time frames, especially since the longer they put their target, the longer the leeway time is. And putting a longer/later delivery date would likely reduce the number of backers/amount of money, which actually becomes an advantage in that there are fewer and lesser invested people hounding them for information/progress. NOT getting "$Macross" may serve projects better.

Sure, larger projects also help keep costs down due to the economics of scale in action, but if a 7 month project can get knocked back another 7 just to deliver 1/3 or so (in terms of the number of figure types), obviously the math is way off.

Bluntly, less overwhelming success would've meant fewer figures necessary to 'launch' fully, quicker/smoother work on the more narrowly focused band of products, and more things to go to retail with at their leisure in the months following.

[jaymz]

Well at least we're on the same page

[Forar]

Like, if this project had gone with a June 2014 target (1 year after the campaign ended), they probably would've brought in less cash, but they also wouldn't have had nearly as much consternation from people wondering why so little had been done. They might've still needed to go with 2 waves, and by now people might've still been a bit cranky, but that'll always happen.

And with a "must deliver within 2x" requirement from KS, they'd have something solid to point to until June 2015.

Hell, I probably would've contribute about half of what I did, but I wouldn't have had a fraction of the frustration or the complaints.

Hindsight is 20/20, but one important part of project management is setting realistic time lines, and another is managing expectations, and both of those have been a complete failure here, from the "maybe we'll even deliver early!" issue, to apparently miscalculating the timeline by a factor of 2.5+ (in that a roughly 8 month project will apparently take 20+ to deliver in full).

[jaymz]

No argument here

[Seto Kaiba]

This is NOT exactly Palladium's first go/connection to a miniature game from a certain POV as they have experience with elements:

It's their first go at an actual miniatures game... not a RPG with optional miniatures rules, or just making minis themselves. There's a great deal of difference there.

And putting a longer/later delivery date would likely reduce the number of backers/amount of money, which actually becomes an advantage in that there are fewer and lesser invested people hounding them for information/progress. NOT getting "$Macross" may serve projects better. [...]

On the other hand, a later delivery date and fewer backers could potentially backfire by having the rather chronically backlogged writers at Palladium assign it a lower priority in the Pile o' Perpetual Procrastination and STILL miss their target because they didn't start in time. With less people hounding them to make at least some visible progress, it could end up in limbo for years the way some books have.

(There's also the unflattering option that, with fewer backers, they'd have been even less confident in a second installment's prospects and canned the project entirely... they started where the $Macross was because that's where the money is in Robotech, and the other two sagas aren't anything like the guaranteed sell Macross is.)

[Morgan Vening]

On the other hand, a later delivery date and fewer backers could potentially backfire by having the rather chronically backlogged writers at Palladium assign it a lower priority in the Pile o' Perpetual Procrastination and STILL miss their target because they didn't start in time. With less people hounding them to make at least some visible progress, it could end up in limbo for years the way some books have.

(There's also the unflattering option that, with fewer backers, they'd have been even less confident in a second installment's prospects and canned the project entirely... they started where the $Macross was because that's where the money is in Robotech, and the other two sagas aren't anything like the guaranteed sell Macross is.)

That would only be an issue if the Kickstarter was the be-all and end all of things. A moderately successful Kickstarter, competently managed and implemented, could have expanded into a much larger thing at retail. Then there might not have even needed to put the remaining eras into Kickstarters, or if they still chose that route, people could take the strength of the first KS and it's subsequent success, and made them even larger than anticipated (probably still not blockbusters, but strong). Instead, I think that the delays and lack of communication as a result of this KS have sunk nearly any chance of a Generation 2 or 3 based KS getting anywhere near what it should.

That's not to say G2/3 will fail. But I can't see anyone ponying up much more than a base box, based on the performance of the current one. I know I won't be touching it with an eleven foot pole.

[Seto Kaiba]

That would only be an issue if the Kickstarter was the be-all and end all of things. A moderately successful Kickstarter, competently managed and implemented, could have expanded into a much larger thing at retail. [...]

Absolutely... if the product has broad appeal. The problem with Robotech (well, one of MANY) is the franchise's profound lack of appeal and brand awareness. It's got very limited appeal, being that the show itself is niche even compared to the already niche appeal of anime in the west. The name "Robotech" has, around the world, greater resonance with the brand of pool cleaning machines and an "Adult novelty item" which share the name. Even if the property were competently managed and implemented, people are still going to need a reason to pick it up, and Robotech is just another squirt in the crowd... albeit one with a preemptive black eye in the view of miniatures gamers.

That's not to say G2/3 will fail. But I can't see anyone ponying up much more than a base box, based on the performance of the current one. I know I won't be touching it with an eleven foot pole.

Oh, it'll probably fail... remember, even Toynami won't touch the Masters Saga and their efforts with the New Generation flopped. How many of those Macross Saga sales were people wanting Phoenix Hawks or other BattleTech unseen mecha?

[Jorel]

still no communication to the backers

[Forar]

still no communication to the backers

Well, they said they'd get back to us in a week, and it's been... a week and a half.

But apparently Wayne has the plague. Hopefully he's seen a doctor if he still has the plague.

Or maybe they're giving Jeff a bit of time to tag back in.

[ShadowLogan]

It's their first go at an actual miniatures game... not a RPG with optional miniatures rules, or just making minis themselves. There's a great deal of difference there.

True, but they have some previous experiences in general that should translate on some level to producing a full complete miniature game. They aren't operating completely in the dark here is what I am getting at unless they decide to start completely from scratch in both relevant aspects.

[jaymz]

I think it could be argued they are in fact starting from scratch here S/L

[wilycoyote]

I think Seto misses the point completely by valliantly trying to defend PB and ND as amatuers in this field.

Regardless of the minis themselves etc, the one thing that does stand out is the lack of communication to the KS backers who ponied up the funds. The latest update about the molds being cut etc was here and not on the KS site, where I suspect the majority of backers will go for information. This is not amatuer , it simply shows some disdain for the KS backers and given this is a relatively professional website, surely the same professionalism should be shown elsewhere.

We all bought in to the game -rose tinted glasses maybe -and the 3d printed prototypes last year wetted everyones appetites for what might be coming. Rules were 90% done in July last year so at least we might get an beta or alpha version (minus pics due to copyright). What have we had so far a gamma version of the rules, mins sold to convention goers in the US and not to backers and what appears to be repeated attempts to use the other party as a scapegoat.

For me I simply want PB/ND and possibly HG to come clean and be candid about what is going on, keep the backers on board and try to work with them to create a vaiable community.

I backed another KS Incursion - run by two "amatuers" - and fair enough the project looks like overrunning by at least six months but guess what Grindhouse let us know what is going on and in the main because we can see progress then the angry shouts are not much in evidence. Rather than ignoring the community, perhaps PB needs to go out and engage them, afterall as someone said earlier, once the game is released then we will be the ones generating the interest and possibly the majority of new sales.

[Raiden]

With all these issues being brought up, I'm starting to truly believe that in dodged a bullet by not funding the kick starter.

[Forar]

Sad to say, but you did.

It was a solid deal, all the more so since the MSRPs increased a few months ago (and it's not impossible they'll increase again, though I doubt by nearly as much), but it's been a very frustrating trek. I can only speak for myself and those in my group that all backed together, but at this point we're just weary. Of missed target dates, and unrealistic follow up dates, and declarations of how awesome and amazing and mouth watering the figures will be.

I'm told there is a phrase among writers/authors; "Show, don't tell."

Well these backers are tired of being told, we want to be shown. It'd be nice to feel that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, and we're on track to get there reasonably. Right now the target has slipped from December to February to May/June to June/July. The brick wall that is Gencon looms in August, both in terms of PB being quite firm about having product for sale there (and not just Limited Edition figures, they've been very clear on that) and getting boxes even started out to backers by then. Having watched a number of companies around that time of year, Gencon isn't just a long weekend, it might as well take up the entire month. Between weeks of preparation and clearing out schedules to be able to send a large enough staff out along with piles of product, to the recovery days post convention, if not weeks in the event someone brings 'con crud' home with them and manages to infect the office. Happened to Wyrd a few years ago, managed to put the warehouse staff right on their butts, or so I recall.

So we've got about 4 months (probably less, but let's be generous) to wrap up mold creation, test runs, any necessary adjustments, knocking out hundreds of thousands of figure sprues, packing them up, shipping across an ocean, passing through customs, and delivery to the warehouse. And that's before spending untold days or even weeks sorting backer orders and firing them into the mail.

100-120 days left? They might barely make it if there aren't any massive delays. And there's a few miracles. And they sell off a few firstborn to the Old Ones.

[ShadowLogan]

I think it could be argued they are in fact starting from scratch here S/L

I'll be honest, I really haven 't been following the mini's game aspect and I really have no interest in it at this point. But Palladium at the very least should be building on their previous experiences, even if the final form looks nothing like their original forays (such as the customizable/assembled minis, new ruleset).

While a lot of ire seems to be directed at Palladium, one should also wonder how much influence HG is having on things in this respect given they do have to approve the things Palladium does at some point. Just look at Marines and how that project ended up being re-written once it reached HG.

[jaymz]

Except that Palladium themselves told us the majority of sculpts were already approved a year ago and here we are now with what seems to be very few approved at all even though they have stated molds are being cut.

They also said the rules were done quite some time ago and they apparently aren't.

There are a few things that were said quite sometime ago that were inaccurate at best and generally speaking have very little if anything to do with HG.

If this were in regards to the "experimental" units I could understand that as those are derivative designs that would fall into a legal grey area, but we are nowhere near even seeing the prototypes of some of those items that I have seen.

Also all communication since the end of the KS has been from PB and no on else so all of it eventually falls on them. If it is HG, say so. If it is ND say so. Thing is they are saying very little of anything to any of us.

[Jorel]

They really get a failing grade in communication. I think we may have seen the experimental Phallanx.

[jaymz]

That is true I forgot about that one. Thanks jorel.

[Forar]

Yeah, we've definitely seen that one, and I'm pretty sure they've shown off the experimental Artillery Pod. The others are in wave two, off the top of my head.

[Morgan Vening]

They really get a failing grade in communication. I think we may have seen the experimental Phallanx.

Yup. We haven't seen it through official channels, but it was on that GAMA Crittohit piece. Had pretty bad seam lines on the experimental pods, down the middle of the torso, and both legs. Also had a Command Package glued (imo awkwardly) to the top of it's head.

Can be seen here.
http://www.crittohit.com/events/gama-trade-show-2014-palladium-books-robotech-rpg-tactics

Yeah, we've definitely seen that one, and I'm pretty sure they've shown off the experimental Artillery Pod. The others are in wave two, off the top of my head.

Yeah, Update 124 for all three versions of the support battlepods.

[Forar]

Regarding the command package, I noticed that. Maybe it doesn't fit properly on a shoulder or the upper back with the arms out like that, but it looked super goofy to have a mech that already has a kind of 'weird boxy and squat except for this odd and spindly sensor tower thingy on top' look and then add another tall piece to it. Seemed like those buildings that try to claim an extra 100 feet in height by packing on the biggest damned antenna they can find.

Nobody believes it. We all know you're just compensating, mister Phalanx.

I'm not a huge fan of those pieces, but the idea of magnetizing a couple and putting metal or magnets in each destroid so I have options became even more appealing. Because the Phallanx with them just looks silly.

[jaymz]

I stand corrected we have see the experimental units.....

But that makes me ask why are experimental units getting done ahead of core units?

[Jorel]

because those will be included in the 1st wave

[jaymz]

Still...core units should be done first. IIRC we are yet to see the final protoype of the Gerwalk and Battloid modes of the VF-1, just the fighter is done. Also what of a final on the Defender? Others?

Sorry I am late to dealing with KS updates and comments (only got more involved at update 134)

[Morgan Vening]

Still...core units should be done first. IIRC we are yet to see the final protoype of the Gerwalk and Battloid modes of the VF-1, just the fighter is done. Also what of a final on the Defender? Others?

Sorry I am late to dealing with KS updates and comments (only got more involved at update 134)

Well, only the digital version of the VeriFighter has been shown. Still haven't seen actual physical prototypes as of yet. The Defender, Phalanx and Tomahawk had physical copies at GAMA (see my CritToHit link above), but not seen yet through official channels. The Tomahawk in particular had a horrific seam gap on the top and back. The only other thing missing from the Wave 1 stuff that we haven't seen at all (digital or physical), is the Recovery Pod.

[Forar]

:lol:

I stand corrected we have see the experimental units.....

But that makes me ask why are experimental units getting done ahead of core units?

The answer is that, kind of, we're not.

It's not an entirely separate unit, it's a different set of arms/artillery pod weapon option you glue/magnet in place.

So we're not getting "experimentals before non-experimentals", we're getting the Spartan and Artillery Pod in wave one, and they happen to have experimental variations. Since the KS boxes and the retail boxes are supposed to be one and the same, they have to make those options for the sprue anyway. It may have added a little to the time/complexity, but in the grand scheme of things (in that wave one constitutes somewhere around a dozen different figures), it's probably just a drop in the bucket.

It's not like they could've included the Monster in Wave 1 if they hadn't had to have taken care of the extra Artillery Pod weapon option, y'know?

[ShadowLogan]

Except that Palladium themselves told us the majority of sculpts were already approved a year ago and here we are now with what seems to be very few approved at all even though they have stated molds are being cut.

They also said the rules were done quite some time ago and they apparently aren't.

W/re to the rules. We know how much Kevin likes to re-write things done by other authors and we know how full his plate is currently. Though I have to wonder how much we need new actual rules though, since one could theoretically just plug them into the current RPG system (as is) since it's supposed to be RPG Tactics afterall, so it would seem to make sense to just use the RPG system possibly with some minor tweaks for the format. So they could theoretically release the mini's seperate from the rules pack.

w/re to the sculpts. The question though has to be considered at what level of approval where the sculpts at when those approvals where announced. We know from the RPG proper that once it gets vetted through Palladium it has to go to HG for approval. I can't see why that would be any different, so we may only have seen the "approval" at one level and not the other.

Also all communication since the end of the KS has been from PB and no on else so all of it eventually falls on them. If it is HG, say so. If it is ND say so. Thing is they are saying very little of anything to any of us.

I agree they should be more transparent and clear (in terms of what is next), but they should also have been more realistic in their assesments in setting deadlines (and this last bit isn't just in relation to the mini's).

[Morgan Vening]

w/re to the sculpts. The question though has to be considered at what level of approval where the sculpts at when those approvals where announced. We know from the RPG proper that once it gets vetted through Palladium it has to go to HG for approval. I can't see why that would be any different, so we may only have seen the "approval" at one level and not the other.

Update 102, July 10, 2013.
"Sculpts are being finalized. ALL but 5-6 have been finished and approved by Harmony Gold, the licensor.
The rules are written, edited, and approved by the licensor, and ready to go into final layout. Packaging designs are next."

[Jorel]

Bummer they couldn't have been more honest with themselves and us.

[Steve Carroll]

I would probably be described as a defender by most, but even I am tired of all the lies now.