Tactics unit costs

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Mike1975
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Tactics unit costs

Unread post by Mike1975 »

For those of you who don't know me I'm and Engineer and as such tend to look at things in sometimes odd and different ways, or maybe that's just the need in me in general. Either way, I have not been 100% comfortable with the idea of pricing units out simply by how one "feels" compared to another. So I spent some extra time coming up with a spreadsheet to calculate the cost of a unit. It might need some tweaking but it is dang close.

18.3 Tomahawk
25.4 Tomahawk (Cmd)
11.1 Defender
16.9 Defender (Cmd)
16 Spartan
24 Spartan (Cmd)
22.7 Phalanx AM (This is with an Anti-Missile Turret on the head)
27.5 Phalanx AM (Cmd)
22.5 Phalanx
27.5 Phalanx (Cmd)
??? Exp Phalanx
53.2 Mac II Monster
55 Mac II Lasers
15.5 VF-1A
16.2 VF-1A W/Nose Lasers
30.2 VF-1D
30.9 VF-1D W/Nose Lasers
23.6 VF-1J
24.3 VF-1J W/Nose Lasers
19.2 VF-1R (A Upgrade)
19.8 VF-1R (A Upgrade) W/Nose Lasers
28.7 VF-1R (J Upgrade)
29.4 VF-1R (J Upgrade) W/Nose Lasers
31.7 VF-1S
32.3 VF-1S W/Nose Lasers
22.5 Armored VF-1A
33.7 Armored VF-1D
30.6 Armored VF-1J
38.7 Armored VF-1S
29.2 Super VF-1A
29.9 Super VF-1A W/Nose Lasers
38.7 Super VF-1D
39.4 Super VF-1D W/Nose Lasers
40.7 Super VF-1J
41.4 Super VF-1J W/Nose Lasers
52.4 Super VF-1S
53 Super VF-1S W/Nose Lasers
29.1 VEF-1
29.8 VEF-1 W/Nose Lasers
43.4 Super VEF-1
15.4 Ghost
16.6 Lancer
16 Jotun
22.7 Jotun Leader
22.5 YF-4
23.8 YF-4 W/Wing Missiles
31.6 YF-4 Leader
33 YF-4 Leader W/Wing Missiles
Mike1975
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Re: Tactics unit costs

Unread post by Mike1975 »

5 Regult
9 Telnesta-Regult
10.7 Nousjadeul-Ger
7.9 Quel-Gulanu
6.9 Gnerl
9.4 Serauhaug-Regult
14.3 Quel-Regult
9.4 Gluuhaug-Regult
29.9 Glaug
48.5 Queadluun-Rau
58.2 Glaug-Eldare
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Forar
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Re: Tactics unit costs

Unread post by Forar »

So, since these ratings are based off your extrapolation of the math used to generate the unit stats, it may be similar to that which was used by ND/PB, but could cause some of the disparities seen.

Which follows that since we only have actual stats (in terms of RRT stats, not your derived ones) for a handful of models, that disparity could be emphasized further.

And while I agree that 'feel' isn't always enough, the raw numbers on cards aren't always sufficient either. There will be balance tweaks based on gameplay experience. Even if a Monster is balanced at 40 points (as it costs in RRT, far as we know), being able to field 7 of them in a 300 point game may be a negative experience (assuming that team isn't looking to go anywhere), hence the restriction on only fielding them with other unit cards.

What I'm saying is that (at least based on the minimal information you're presenting) you seem to be working in a vacuum. Why not present your math on how you arrived at these totals? How heavily do you weight weapons ranges? Movement? MDC? Damage dealing ability? Limited ammo abilities? The Hand to Hand combat comparison you said you used to figure out how the piloting/gunnery stats were being figured out? Are these numbers accounting for the fact that some units are only available as upgrades and elite units, and thus have force organization limitations in place (as in, no matter what you do, as it stands one can never field more than 3 MAC II's in a 300 point list)?

Basically, if you're going to tell us that you've calculated the points value of each unit to a tenth of a point, and find that many of the units are under/over costed (some by a significant amount, there's a reason I'm referencing the MAC II in particular, though others are catching my eye as well), either the math is off or you've already found cracks in the system.

Also, even if you're right, it's possible that for the lower costed stuff they had an acceptable margin of error and introduced rounding to keep the numbers fairly simple. Sure, they could've made Tomahawks cost 18.3 points apiece, or 183 points if they wanted that kind of gradiation to be available, but multiples of 5 is probably going to be vastly less taxing on the less mathematically inclined players. It'd explain why, at least the initial destroids I glanced at, seem to be within 10%, which could go either way (offset to the math involved that PB is using, margin of error, rounding for simplicity of force building)

Though that doesn't explain a few oddities like the prices of the various flavour of 1D on the PB Valkyrie chart we got a few updates back, but I assume that's either undergone further alterations or will prove to be an exception/have other factors we don't understand yet.

It's a fascinating set of numbers, but in RRT terms and Mike's RRT terms we lack context to say something other than "this is how Mike has weighted the figures that most of have only the vaguest amount of information about".
Mike1975
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Re: Tactics unit costs

Unread post by Mike1975 »

I'll post the breakdown of how the spreadsheet I created calculate things on the FB page. It's going to be a long post. The spreadsheet is already there if you want to take a look.
Mike1975
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Re: Tactics unit costs

Unread post by Mike1975 »

I posted how to figure weapons and missiles costs on the FB page. Will try to do the units themselves later tonight for you.

https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/1440349382851175/
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Forar
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Re: Tactics unit costs

Unread post by Forar »

Oh, I'm sure it'll be a hefty post alright. No need to 'show your math' for every last figure, though if you have that entire breakdown in something that can be copied and pasted, I'd be interested in giving it a once over.

Out of curiosity, have you adjusted the stats you had worked out for the figures we've recently gotten the official stats for? I'm curious how, for example, the YF-4 turned out versus what you had extrapolated it turning out to be, particularly if your value listed here represents your stats as opposed to what we've recently gotten.

For example, you have the value of a standard Super VF squad at 128.3 points, and a standard YF-4 squad at 99.1, however the last force builder list we got has them both at 110 points for RRT, which means that either the YF-4's are overpriced, the Supers are underpriced, or there's something else going on.

Note, I'm not ruling out any of the three being the case. Every game has things that prove to be more or less great, either in the math or on the table.

Also, context is huge, and that list doesn't give us much other than the end results of what you've extrapolated, when I'm far more curious how you got there.
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Re: Tactics unit costs

Unread post by Jorel »

I bet he updates his numbers seconds after the official update hits with official stats.
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Mike1975
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Re: Tactics unit costs

Unread post by Mike1975 »

I first worked out basic stats directly based off of the RPG stats using Strike, Dodge, Roll, Parry bonuses and such. The Unit's physical stats are based almost entirely on direct conversion from the RPG. It seems to me that changes are made to these stats when they just plain don't make sense in Tactics like the amount of damage the Defender's guns would do. The direct conversion would have them doing 16 damage. This was changed to 8 with the Rapid Fire trait. I took these stats and they have been either spot on or really close to the ones that have been published. For example MDC of a unit in the RPG divided by 25 is the amount of damage a unit can take in tactics. The only place this seems to get more wishy washy is for flying units.

I took the stats and played with the numbers until I got a spreadsheet that would give me points really close to the per unit costs extrapolated from the force orgs.

Give me a few days as I'm going to simplify the spreadsheet for use and then you can look at all the costs and change one value and see how it changes the costs of every other unit in the game. Right now you have to plug in each unit one by one to get it's unit cost.
Mike1975
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Re: Tactics unit costs

Unread post by Mike1975 »

Uploaded new file

UEDF only BUT this has all the Individual UEDF units on seperate Worksheets with the modifiers on one sheet so that if you change one modifier you can see how it effects all the other units.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1440349 ... 382851175/
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