Release date...

[jaymz]

At this point February is a date I can live with but if goes beyond that I am going to start getting antsy....I want to get this game in my hands so I can start demoing it at my local shop and the spring con which is in late March. I've been touting it as pretty fast paced and fun (I played a demo and watched it too at Anime North last May). The longer it takes hte harder it will be to promote.

[Jorel]

I'm irritated that they were saying it may be October or November when they clearly had no idea what they were doing or how long it would take. It is like me saying, "I'm gonna design a car. Not to worry I don't know anything about cars except I drive one. I think it cold be done as early as next week." I really wish they would actually take reality into account when telling their customers when we can expect to see products. They really should keep those dates to themselves unless they have concrete proof it can be done by then and with room for error. As soon as Palladium has one hiccup their whole game plan is thrown off and that it terribly unprofessional. They don't make themselves look any smarter by giving other businesses a false release date like they did. Actually advertising a false release date when you are a rookie in any market is a good way to get people to not take you seriously. After 30 years I really wish Palladium were a bit smarter about how they treat their customers and the projected release dates of their products.

[jaymz]

Under normal circumstances I would wholeheartedly agree with you Jorel as you well know BUT (you knew that was coming I bet)....

This is whole new ground for PB (now not whole but damn near close) and having worked in the manufacturing industry myself for a time (I did many things in my 40 years which is both a good and bad thing ) I thought their estimated time for delivery was actually a good one. I understand, especially for manufacturing, that you will likely get delays, even more so for an initial start up, and can accept that. However at some point I will not be happy if it get's delayed further. By now most if not nearly all the sculpts should be approved and moving to actual production. It seems they are close so I will wait and bide my time.

[Jorel]

They knew months ago that there was only the slightest chance they could actually get all the things mentioned in the current press release done in that time frame. Now the sliding scale of release dates makes them look like they didn't account for very simple things like approval if it is all successful and the actual number of things they would be required to do/produce, again if it was all successful. As soon as they saw how successful the Kickstarter was they should have padded their dates. Not stick by their initial projections from before they even knew how much they planned on producing. It was all speculation until after the Kickstarter and then they knew the exact number and what kinds they needed to produce. That is when they should have projected a more realistic date.

[bielmic]

I feared this game would get Northern Gun'ed when the kickstarter said they were ready to go to manufacture within 40 or so days but it took about 60 days to figure out just how to take our money via the pledge manager; most kickstarters are ready to do that within 2-4 weeks. I tried staying optimistic but that raised a heck of alot of red flags for me personally. It's also not a good sign when the "easy" parts of the whole process (the rules and cards) are still not done 6 months later when supposedly 90% was done before it all started. I've got a feeling that the Feb 2014 date will only happen if nothing else goes wrong EVER in the entire rest of the process. With how Kickstarters in general get delayed and how both Ninja and Palladium have a history of long delays, Gencon 2014 is looking more and more like a realistic possibility.

[Forar]

Yeah... that's an update alright. It doesn't say much that we didn't already know, or had at least ascertained, but at least they're finally admitting to the delay.

Good to see them recognize Chinese New Year as well. From what I recall, that was reportedly one of the things that held up Relic Knights.

Well, guess we can tack another 28 days to the deadline clock. Man, that thing is growing faster than it's falling.

[Jorel]

I think at this point I kinda wish I could lock myself away from any news and step out in February and see how far off we are from actually receiving product. I don't like the idea of thinking we could have had it in October, no November, no December, no wait...maybe February. Seeing as Chinese New Year is on Jan. 31th if we don't have it by then, we won't have it by April.

[bielmic]

I don't like the idea of thinking we could have had it in October, no November, no December, no wait...maybe February. Seeing as Chinese New Year is on Jan. 31th if we don't have it by then, we won't have it by April.

I'm officially predicting a Gencon 2014 release. I may not have initially come up with that prediction (that honor goes to a friend who also went in on the KS) but I'm putting my flag down on it sadly. I certainly hope that and would be delighted if Palladium exceeds the rather low expectations that date entails.

[Jorel]

That would be just in time for my bday next year. I hope we see it a bit sooner than that.

[Kryptt]

Guys I'd be pleasantly surprised if it came by February but it's not going to happen there will also be delays pushing the release date further back. Remember Kev said he HOPES to get the game out by February. Since he admitted this is new territory for PB he's still making guesses as to the delivery date which doesn't seem to be working well.

It sucks that this has become the next ng1 for PB. My only hope is that we see it before gencon. It would really sour this experience even more if PB held on to RRT just to have some half axx attempt at making a big fuss at gencon. I've already noticed first time PB customers displaying their disappointment in PB.

[Sgt Anjay]

Its probably better to look at how other, similar kickstarters have panned out, since that's actual relevant data. Seat-of-the-pants projections and snarky-word-of-mouth are both clearly flawed and overly skewed one way or another.

By that measure, things are still humming along pretty well, communication is less-than-ideal but (especially with this last update) at acceptable levels and in either case Palladium is actually not that difficult to get a hold of, and we're quite far off from anything anywhere near needing picking up the torches and pitchforks.

[Kryptt]

No one is talking about picking up torches and pitchforks. Many are just venting their frustration at not having our man-barbies in dec. in fact they have a right to be upset considering for many of us it's our first ks and the way PB/ND have handled the project hasn't helped matters either. PB needs to remember there no longer an RPG books only company. There now a game company that produces books and minis (via third party) that only puts out one or two books a year, which is strange since PB touts itself as a book company before they ok'd RRT.

[Warshield73]

I've already noticed first time PB customers displaying their disappointment in PB.

First time? I think the very first post own the original PB forums was a complaint about the delay of the release schedule. Disappointment in PB's constant delays is a customer requirement for this company.

The simple fact is Kevin can't win this. If he refuses to give release dates for products until its done he is accused of not communicating with the fans and if he gives his best guess based on ND & HG information then he crapped on for being wrong.

I have done two other kickstarters, one movie and one video game, and both are far more behind with far fewer updates then RT. I spent a lot of money on the kickstarter for this but as long as they are working on it and get it to me soonest I just can't get that worked up.

My only hope is that we see it before gencon. It would really sour this experience even more if PB held on to RRT just to have some half axx attempt at making a big fuss at gencon.

Name one time PB has ever done this. They are always so desperate to get something out and so far behind I don't think they even consider good marketing.

[Kryptt]

It sounds like good marketing is a foreign concept. Regardless this will a great game according to Kevy's post because everyone in the office is super duper excited about it and by default so will we.

[Sgt Anjay]

No one is talking about picking up torches and pitchforks.

Actually, that's not true, depending on your interpretation of torches and pitchforks. I've already seen the "I'll demand a refund!" threats and read someone calling Kevin an egomaniac surrounded by sycophants. The sentiment is out there, even if you yourself aren't a part of it.

Yeah, its entirely natural people feel disappointment, anger, get worked up. They want what they want, and are going to feel what they're going to feel; dealing with that is part and parcel of producing products for people, let alone an audience like ours.

However, subjectively, using the relevant data of the perfomance of other, similar kickstarters, things are still humming along pretty well, and communication is less-than-ideal but easily at acceptable levels.

Regardless this will a great game according to Kevy's post because everyone in the office is super duper excited about it and by default so will we.

Right, because it's not like a bunch of RPG gamer geeks (including what can be fairly called some really old school ones) working at Palladium managing to "get" a table-top miniatures game is a good sign, or Ninja Division is a company good at making fun games, or there hasn't been a ton of demoing at cons with positive results.

[Tiree]

my biggest concern is his thoughts that it will take a week for all of this to pass through customs. I just don't buy it, and I'll expect a much longer delay.

[Kryptt]

No one is talking about picking up torches and pitchforks.

Actually, that's not true, depending on your interpretation of torches and pitchforks. I've already seen the "I'll demand a refund!" threats and read someone calling Kevin an egomaniac surrounded by sycophants. The sentiment is out there, even if you yourself aren't a part of it.

I don't think anyone wants their money back at this stage in the game, and you might be reading too much into this.

Regardless this will a great game according to Kevy's post because everyone in the office is super duper excited about it and by default so will we.

Right, because it's not like a bunch of RPG gamer geeks (including what can be fairly called some really old school ones) working at Palladium managing to "get" a table-top miniatures game is a good sign, or Ninja Division is a company good at making fun games, or there hasn't been a ton of demoing at cons with positive results.

I'm glad we can at least agree on something.

[ScottBernard]

Looks like the comments section over at the ks are starting to resemble here with regards to opposing opinions. And some of those people had never encountered Palladium before.

[Kryptt]

Looks like the comments section over at the ks are starting to resemble here with regards to opposing opinions. And some of those people had never encountered Palladium before.

I would say more than some for most.

[Morgan Vening]

The simple fact is Kevin can't win this. If he refuses to give release dates for products until its done he is accused of not communicating with the fans and if he gives his best guess based on ND & HG information then he crapped on for being wrong.

You're probably right here, in that Kevin can't win, if winning means zero complaints.

If winning means significantly less complaints, I disagree. From the comments over on the KS, most people aren't complaining because it's delayed. Most people are complaining because we aren't being informed. While there have been promises about the progress of the project, there's been no actual evidence that anything has progressed beyond what has existed since the Kickstarter began, other than some computer renderings. The book has been 'almost ready for layout' since the KickStarter was launched (second last paragraph of the main page, just before the FAQ).

Essentially, we're being asked to take it on faith. And even keeping out all the other non-RRT issues (like Northern Gun), it's still difficult. Because to date, the only thing that's been on schedule so far has been the Kickstarter required and managed finish date. The survey was late. As a result, the Backerkit was a lot later than expected. Updates have been varying degrees of sketchy (both in presence and content), and as Bielmic continues to point out, the Design-An-Ace is MIA. My own personal bugbear, the VEF/1D box, did get clarified. But it took over a month, six avenues of communication (KS main comments, KS Update comments, KS Contact Me, PB Forum HelpDesk, the Forum itself, and three separate attempts at GenCon) and until Update 108, nothing.

It's the vagueness and silence more than the delays that seems to be the problem for most people. The stretch goals went well beyond what was done prior to the release of the Kickstarter? "Sculpts for the game pieces are almost entirely complete.". Tell us. Let us know that there might be delays because they need to build everything from the Final Countdown Stretch Goal page from scratch. The book's got problems with it's Close Combat system, and they're working on it, tell us. I think most of us do agree with the statement "it is better to get this product right than to rush it", but we need to be told why. Nebulous answers like "We're working on it" don't work, and empty platitudes "it's gonna be awesome", don't instill confidence. Real answers, in a meaningful time frame, do.

Morgan Vening

[Jorel]

Very true statements Morgan.

[Kryptt]

I agree with Morgan's statement. It's not the delay it's the "We love it! You'll love it" sillyness. Many backers don't know about PB and it's way of doing "business". For many, their adults who seem like well adjusted people who seem mature. Not like us who role play or play with little toy soldiers.:-p So Kevin's way of presenting the facts doesn't jive with them. For many of them it seems like they bought into this out of nostalgia. It's probably their first exposure to PB and the gaming community in general.

[Forar]

I think Morgan has hit it right on the head, and it's a shame that for many others, their backing was done knowing of Palladium's reputation for delays, and they joined all the same, if reluctantly. A love of the property overriding their caution. This was an incredible opportunity to turn over a new leaf, to show that even while juggling work and communication between 2 associate groups and undertaking a simply staggering project, that they could indeed give reasonable delivery targets and then clearly communicate what was going on behind the scenes.

When someone spends months telling me how much work they're doing and how far along they are and how happy everyone is, hearing suddenly that there are snags and problems and more work to be done, I generally don't feel terribly charitable. I'm sure many of those snags were known of months ago. In order to deliver by December surely the molds needed tooling and the production needed to begin months before, and yet it wasn't until the end of September that they even began to hint that there were issues.

It's no wonder PB likes to keep their vague 'info' regarding the project to their weekly updates, as clearly only a small fraction of the backers actually read them. Whenever they put out an actual KS update, they get significantly more attention. Almost like it goes out to every single backer at once. >.>

[Kryptt]

Actually after reading WRRD's "behind the curtain" report. It seems PB didn't see the delays coming like many backers. No matter what if WRRD's report is true its worry some indeed. It shows a lack of forethought on all parties involved in producing this game.

My only concern is we get miniatures with lackluster quality. I have faith tho. Many backers attended gencon and said the game and more importantly the minis are worth the wait. The pics from gencon got me excited for receiving my order. I'm still excited for RRT. Just hope that things change from here on out. If there are delays let us know. We'll give you time to make the best possible product.

[Jorel]

WRRD?

[Kryptt]

WRRD?

WilhelmRochRedDuke

[Jorel]

Where is this report?

[Kryptt]

It's in the latest update. Page 3 I think. In fact almost everyone has abandoned the regular comments section and are now posting in the updates comments section about how displeased they are with what's now become the sequel to ng1 debacle.

I still don't get how a book company had difficulty producing ng1 (something they do all the time). RRT I can understand. Ng1 not really.

This project reminds me of the space program from the 1960s, about getting a man to the moon and back safely before the end of the decade. Can PB/ND get SC and invid invasion out before the end of the decade?

[Jorel]

After a bit of reading I am now on the same page.

[Forar]

Many backers attended gencon and said the game and more importantly the minis are worth the wait.

However, the minis the Gencon people got to see were prototypes and LE figures in alternate materials. They may or may not be indicative of the final product, especially once mass production models are tooled up and pumping out tens of thousands of each figure.

I'll give recognition that with this extra time refining things, they may end up even better, but we can't assume that the figures seen at Gencon are perfectly indicative of the ones we'll get at our doors in *sometime in 2014?*.

As for WRRD, yeah, that dude took things way too personally. PB/ND employee or not, he has spoken as someone involved with the campaign in the past, and it does the project no favors to have someone well known within the comments/community losing it like that. It was unprofessional, pure and simple.

[Kryptt]

Good point Forar as far as what the quality of the final product will be. Maybe CAD ninja can go over the design of the YF-4. Also for the vf-1 in fighter and gerwalk mode maybe add the fins that stick out of the lower sides of the front fuselage.