Why are Southern Cross spaceships so terrible?

[mech798]

We all know the real reason (a different show) but what about the "in universe reason?" Not just SC but Invid era ships were horribly outmatched and underarmed compared to zentraedi warships. In fact, they weren't that much better than the armor series.

why? It's hard to say you dind't nkow. The zentraedi were fighting the invid and other forces so any reasonable engineer would make their warships the baseline level to aspire to-- and the range of their weapons would have been a hideous advantage against SC ships-- and when you realize that the fluff is that the SC had been prepared to fight any future renegade zentraedi, it seems odd that they were designed in such a way that the zentraedi could have casually destroyed them from well beyond their range.

[glitterboy2098]

from what i see, it is a combination of things.
humanity seems to have relied heavily on their advantage in mecha capability doctrine wise.. carrying a lot of mecha, and using that as their main firepower. (basically using a carrier centric dictrine vs the zentraedi's more battleship/cruiser centric doctrine, at least space warfare wise.)

2nd, humanity seems to have preferred to use human built weaponry and systems on their home built ships.. at least for anything other than the drive systems and main powerplants. while human tech makes some impressive jumps in quality over the 40 some years of the robotech saga, it never really catches up with zent and master's tech. as a result, they seem to have (at least in the RPG) focused more on short term firepower, especially missile technology where humanity holds a bit of an edge.

3rd, human ships are far smaller than zent ships, so they literally cannot fit as much in. biggest human ships are roughly the same size as the SDF-1.. which is roughly the same size as a zent gunship. the typical human ship is smaller than the SDF-1, making zent ships absolutely huge by comparison.
fan made earth ship size comparison (may not be 100% accurate)
accurate OSM SDF-1 to zent scale comparison
brings the point across i think.

and while it's not part of the original question, a master's mothership dwarfs a zent flagship.. the tiny vessels of the ASC going up against one was like a school of salmon going up against a megalodon shark..

[drewkitty ~..~]

There is one more thing. The Southern Cross ships were constructed on the surface of the planet. Just doing that limits the size of the ship that can be made.

[ShadowLogan]

We all know the real reason (a different show) but what about the "in universe reason?" Not just SC but Invid era ships were horribly outmatched and underarmed compared to zentraedi warships. In fact, they weren't that much better than the armor series.

why? It's hard to say you dind't nkow. The zentraedi were fighting the invid and other forces so any reasonable engineer would make their warships the baseline level to aspire to-- and the range of their weapons would have been a hideous advantage against SC ships-- and when you realize that the fluff is that the SC had been prepared to fight any future renegade zentraedi, it seems odd that they were designed in such a way that the zentraedi could have casually destroyed them from well beyond their range.

Actually from the show we don't know exactly who the Zentreadi all had to fight, it is only via secondary media that implies the Zent. fought the Invid. The show seems to suggest the Zent. are primarily engaged with the DoZ, not the Invid.

That said, remember that the ASC was fighting an enemy that created the Zentreadi, so it is likely they where fighting a superior opponent to the one they expected to fight (Zentreadi level). ASC Tactics/Strategy might also have contributed to their poor showing, but I think it the main reason is the Masters (in-universe) simply out-class the Zentreadi, even in their powered down state.

The UEEF also isn't hard to explain based on their dealings with the Invid. Simply put, the Invid tactics/strategy for dealing with capital ships was an approach the UEEF ships where not set up for really. Though why the UEEF couldn't/wouldn't update their ships given 10+years of contact is beyond me unless the Invid are evolving to fast for the UEEF to compensate for.

[Seto Kaiba]

We all know the real reason (a different show) but what about the "in universe reason?"

Actually... there is no "real reason".

Why? Well... this is where it gets awkward. Like a lot of designs that appeared in Southern Cross, the ships of the series were never even given proper names, let alone actual stats. We know literally nothing of what the show's creators intended for these ships, except that the gray human ships are from Liberte, while the blue human ships are from Glorie. We don't know how big they were, what they were armed with, how many mecha they carried, what their crew size was, how they were powered, or even what they were called in-universe.

The stats provided for those ships in Robotech exist to serve the in-universe rationale for those ships being terrible, nothing more.

Namely, that rationale is that the Tokugawa-class was designed to be a carrier with missiles as its main offensive weapons... it was built without the "lessons learned" from the first war, and therefore found itself a relatively useless warship designed to fight by a different, rather more lenient, set of rules for space warfare. The Tristar class were allegedly actually OK designs, but were hopelessly outmatched against the more advanced weapons of the Tirolians.

You also have to remember that weapons ranged in the RPG are entirely arbitrary... the RPG has a nasty habit of SEVERELY short-changing human ships that goes back to 1E and the Macross II game.

As size comparisons go, this one might be a bit illustrative as far as UEDF/UEEF equipment vs. other major powers.

There is one more thing. The Southern Cross ships were constructed on the surface of the planet. Just doing that limits the size of the ship that can be made.

Actually, we don't know where they were built... canon-ly anyway.

[taalismn]

Southern Cross ships even aesthetically look like rowboats taking on destroyers(or battleships).

[Seto Kaiba]

Southern Cross ships even aesthetically look like rowboats taking on destroyers(or battleships).

For that size comparison I posted, the Tristar class would be roughly the same size as the ARMD in that image... and the Tokugawa class would be slightly smaller than the SDF-1 Macross. In terms of mass and capability, it's a wonder the Tirolians even noticed they were being shot at.

[taalismn]

[
For that size comparison I posted, the Tristar class would be roughly the same size as the ARMD in that image... and the Tokugawa class would be slightly smaller than the SDF-1 Macross. In terms of mass and capability, it's a wonder the Tirolians even noticed they were being shot at.

"Huh....I think we ran into something. Activate the windshield wipers, will you?"

[Tim Wing]

In a word: Money.

Okay, so money is a very simplistic word, but lets look at the economic situation the vast Zentraedi fleet were created under. The Masters had an absolutely gigantic empire, containing who knows how many worlds and nearly unlimited resources. Plus they cornered the market on Protoculture, which we will get to in a second. Earth, on the other hand, had just had most of its population wiped out, along with all of its industrial facilities, and had no colony worlds or trade partners to speak of. (Well, they probobly had a few colonies, based on the fact that there was the Ark Angel class colony ship in the Shadow Chronicles... but a colony takes some time to become profitable, so never mind.)

Then there is the issue of Protoculture... or lack there of. I'm sure Earth could have salvaged plenty of Zentraedi ships after the first war... we know they salvaged at least one: Breetai's flageship. But those things are gas hogs.

Any way, long story short, I think we just didn't have the resources to build, let alone run, a big Zentraedi style fleet. You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want I guess.

[taalismn]

Hell, the Tristar couldn't take off from Earth without the assistance of tugs. Compare that to Khyron's cruiser lifting from UNDERWATER under its own power, shedding what had to be several hundred tons of seawater in the process.

[Seto Kaiba]

"Huh....I think we ran into something. Activate the windshield wipers, will you?"

Pretty much... though this is one of those things that falls into an adaptation-induced plot hole.

In a word: Money.

But the military equipment in the Robotech universe wasn't developed or built by private enterprise... the United Earth Government was/is a pseudocommunist military dictatorship (esp. in the RPG, which quite blatantly insists the UEG was basically a puppet government run by the military) that controls development (under "military scientists" like Dr. Lang and Zand) and the means of production (a factory satellite). They don't even need to mine resources to build 'em, since there's a near-limitless supply of advanced materials and even whole working systems sprayed liberally across Earth's surface and near-Earth space that can be recycled easily enough. Indeed, we're told both in canon and in the RPG that the UEDF and UEEF ships are made, in part, of salvage... with whole systems like reflex furances and fold systems being salvaged for the newly built human ships.

There's no resource shortage or manufacturing shortfall to explain this... they had a factory satellite and the billions of tons of high-tech salvage that was a Zentradi fleet to play with. Money is, to borrow a neat turn of phrase, "No object".

There's also no indication of a fuel shortage, since the UEDF apparently had some pretty significant stockpiles and the UEEF still had a working matrix.

[glitterboy2098]

Then there is the issue of Protoculture... or lack there of. I'm sure Earth could have salvaged plenty of Zentraedi ships after the first war... we know they salvaged at least one: Breetai's flageship. But those things are gas hogs.

Any way, long story short, I think we just didn't have the resources to build, let alone run, a big Zentraedi style fleet. You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want I guess.

actually, this is a valid point. they would have salvaged a huge amount of protoculture from the wreckage of the fleet, as well as obtained a lot of it from the factory sat(s) they captured.

but consider that the stuff was a finite supply. they didn't know where the protoculture factory was exactly (on the SDF-1 for sure, but where in the *radioactive* wreckage? without knowing where to start, or what to look for exactly, they couldn't afford to risk dismantling the SDF-1's remains and possibly lose a lot of people trying to find something that they might not be able to figure out how to use anyway.

so that supply of PC salvaged from the zents? was all they had for the forseeable future. possibly hundreds of years, before another source of it could be found. (possibly less as well, but in strategic planning, you always assume the worst case scenario's when it comes to supplies)

so they'd want to minimize the use of it to just what needs it.. and build those to be as efficient as they can. which means that the ships can't make use of some of the more potent tech from the zents.

[taalismn]

"Huh....I think we ran into something. Activate the windshield wipers, will you?"

Pretty much... though this is one of those things that falls into an adaptation-induced plot hole..

No...if you're talking about Glorie vs Zor, the scale's there on the screen.
On the other hand, you throw enough locusts at a Cessna(or geese at a jumbo jet), you could bring one down.
Sucks to be one of the locusts on the windshield(or goose in the turbofan), but hey, if numbers are the only effective weapon you can bring to bear against the enemy.

[Chris0013]

To sum up...ships designed to fight the last war...not the next war.

[Seto Kaiba]

To sum up...ships designed to fight the last war...not the next war.

Taken in the context of the Tokugawa-class's stats... ships designed to fight an entirely imaginary war where the enemy ships are armored with cake, armed with nothing nastier than a box of party snaps and a pellet gun, and whose crew is either blind or blind drunk.

They make such a meal out of how the Tokugawa is useless in most any combat situation that doesn't involve it somehow ambushing near-defenseless enemy cargo ships at extremely close range that it crosses the line twice. The way they phrase it, seeing the ship coming and/or having anything resembling a decent beam cannon means you can take a Tokugawa. Kinda makes you wonder if Rick had something against Vince Grant when he sent him in a Tokugawa-class ship to hunt down Edwards... and makes the way the Tokugawa is one-shotted and sunk without firing a shot a little more understandable.

[ShadowLogan]

But the military equipment in the Robotech universe wasn't developed or built by private enterprise... the United Earth Government was/is a pseudocommunist military dictatorship (esp. in the RPG, which quite blatantly insists the UEG was basically a puppet government run by the military) that controls development (under "military scientists" like Dr. Lang and Zand) and the means of production (a factory satellite). They don't even need to mine resources to build 'em, since there's a near-limitless supply of advanced materials and even whole working systems sprayed liberally across Earth's surface and near-Earth space that can be recycled easily enough. Indeed, we're told both in canon and in the RPG that the UEDF and UEEF ships are made, in part, of salvage... with whole systems like reflex furances and fold systems being salvaged for the newly built human ships.

There's no resource shortage or manufacturing shortfall to explain this... they had a factory satellite and the billions of tons of high-tech salvage that was a Zentradi fleet to play with. Money is, to borrow a neat turn of phrase, "No object".

Actually "Money" would be a valid factor to consider as:
-We know that in 2029 money is still in use by the UEG. Bowie comments to Dana about spending per paycheck before she has it. Marie & Nova comment about the dress Dana buys mentioning they have to save for a certain amount of time for it.

The UEG would also need some common measure to determine resource cost in a project. We know COST is a factor in the cancellation of the VF-X-4 program, and other programs to boot depending on where one looks. That cost would cover a variety of resources, manhours, not just raw material for construction.

There's also no indication of a fuel shortage, since the UEDF apparently had some pretty significant stockpiles and the UEEF still had a working matrix.

Well we know by 2044 they are down to a 1 year supply. So clearly the UEEF had a finite supply to work with. Then you have the whole SLMH angle (non-sense) for some generations contributing to perception of a limited supply.

That doesn't mean the UEEF would have a fuel shortage, but the Zentreadi certainly are known to have a fuel shortage for the ~6million ship fleet. Further strengthening the idea that the UEEF would have finite supply (being smaller than the Zentreadi fleets overall would help them stretch the supply).

They make such a meal out of how the Tokugawa is useless in most any combat situation that doesn't involve it somehow ambushing near-defenseless enemy cargo ships at extremely close range that it crosses the line twice. The way they phrase it, seeing the ship coming and/or having anything resembling a decent beam cannon means you can take a Tokugawa. Kinda makes you wonder if Rick had something against Vince Grant when he sent him in a Tokugawa-class ship to hunt down Edwards... and makes the way the Tokugawa is one-shotted and sunk without firing a shot a little more understandable.

Well the Tokugawa seems to be intended to act as a carrier and not a battleship, and a carrier uses its fighters for offense. I know RT.com infopedia has it as a "battleship", but that seems to be an off designation as it probably is a "battleship" in the generic sense of a military vessel, but for the actual class it seems less likely. Infopedia also makes it clear the Tok. wasn't able to apply "lessons learned" fully, though apparently it was still usable for around 30years.

Isn't Vince's ship supposed to be an "upgraded" variety. Vince's Tok. though is one-shotted by a Syncro-Cannon which is understandable in why it gets taken down so quickly. (Probably doesn't help that Edwards might also know where to target for maximum effectiveness)

What's odd is that the Tok. is sent out solo, w/o escorts. The only time a Tok. has escorts AFAIK is when the ASC used the ship (and when the do, at least by the on-screen record, it doesn't get destroyed even though it would be the biggest target).

[mech798]

On supplies, remember that the factory satellite was a healthy percentage of the size of hte MOON. Yu're actually talking something that in terms of square footage quite possibly exceeded the surface area of the earth (lots 'o floors in that thing) and had an inconcievable amount of raw materials lying around. production, should be a non-problem once they get it running.

Granted, with the Hunters in charge, they probably dropped it on somebody's head since who needs an installation with a literally inconceivable amount of production capability. I mean, this came from the genius team that stuck the last remaining source of hte miracle food into a battleship that spent its time on the frontline, instead of a fold capable fortress whose only orders were to *run away* if anything ever endangered the matrix.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually "Money" would be a valid factor to consider as:
-We know that in 2029 money is still in use by the UEG.

Shockingly enough, even communist countries do have currency... the existence of money does not make it not a pseudocommunist government. The government is explicitly shown to have absolute control over the means of production, from food to military hardware (one of the reasons Kyle's so butthurt near the end of the Macross Saga).

The point is that we know they had an automated factory that required very little manpower, and practically limitless resources with which to work. It's not a money problem or a resources problem.

Well we know by 2044 they are down to a 1 year supply.

Due not to limited means of production, but outside intervention on the part of the Haydonites and the Invid Regess which deprived them of any means of resupply.

So clearly the UEEF had a finite supply to work with.

A finite floating supply that they were able to continually replenish with the protoculture matrix they had on the SDF-3... it only become limited once they "misplaced" the SDF-3 with Haydonite assistance.

That doesn't mean the UEEF would have a fuel shortage, but the Zentreadi certainly are known to have a fuel shortage for the ~6million ship fleet.

The Zentradi had a fuel shortage because they had no means to produce new fuel... explicitly not an issue affecting the UEEF until the disappearance of the SDF-3 in 2044.

Well the Tokugawa seems to be intended to act as a carrier and not a battleship, and a carrier uses its fighters for offense.

*coughs diffidently*

Infopedia article title is "Tokugawa-class Battleship".

(Welcome to unreliable reportage, population: Robotech. I wanted to make a joke here about a certain news channel, but discretion is the better part of valor.)

Isn't Vince's ship supposed to be an "upgraded" variety.

Proof positive that even if you can polish a turd, what you're left with after you're done is still only high gloss fecal matter.

On supplies, remember that the factory satellite was a healthy percentage of the size of hte MOON. Yu're actually talking something that in terms of square footage quite possibly exceeded the surface area of the earth (lots 'o floors in that thing) and had an inconcievable amount of raw materials lying around. production, should be a non-problem once they get it running.

Never mind AotSC telling us the UEEF actually had more than one...

[mech798]

On supplies, remember that the factory satellite was a healthy percentage of the size of hte MOON. Yu're actually talking something that in terms of square footage quite possibly exceeded the surface area of the earth (lots 'o floors in that thing) and had an inconcievable amount of raw materials lying around. production, should be a non-problem once they get it running.

Never mind AotSC telling us the UEEF actually had more than one...

Yeah-- in truth, material supplies shouldn't even be a factor-the UEEF's sole "resource problem" should be the people to crew their toys. In fact, I'd say that if the show had been made more recently, remembering that computer tech in robotch is very dated, I'd expect to see a bigger stress on drones and such to protect the squishy meat sacks that take so long to produce.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah-- in truth, material supplies shouldn't even be a factor-the UEEF's sole "resource problem" should be the people to crew their toys.

Pretty much, yeah... just look at Prelude, where it's revealed that in addition to managing and maintaining a fleet of, at one point, close to 500 ships was no strain at all on just one fairly small factory satellite. On that same satellite, they had more than enough slack to also engage in large-scale shipbuilding and maintain the UEEF's research, development, and trial production facilities, with enough room to spare to hold an arsenal's worth of planet-killing warheads many times the size of their largest starships.

The one they captured in the series was supposedly enough to maintain the operations of a fleet of millions of ships...

In fact, I'd say that if the show had been made more recently, remembering that computer tech in robotch is very dated, I'd expect to see a bigger stress on drones and such to protect the squishy meat sacks that take so long to produce.

Yeah, which makes it all the weirder that until the trailer for the failed Robotech Academy project, the franchise was consistently downplaying the involvement of drones... even though drones were present and accounted for in all three original shows.

The original Macross had the QF-3000E Ghost, which was out-of-focus for most of the series but got mentioned every now and then in dialog. Southern Cross's Garm was a drone walker used for some unexplained reason by the Military Police. MOSPEADA had the unmanned Dark Legioss, which made up something like 20% of the 3rd Earth Recapture mission.

Robotech downplayed all three, but none so severely as the "Shadow Drone", which was left out of the Shadow Chronicles movie altogether. No points for throwing in a token drone that looks exactly like a modern drone.

[ShadowLogan]

Shockingly enough, even communist countries do have currency... the existence of money does not make it not a pseudocommunist government. The government is explicitly shown to have absolute control over the means of production, from food to military hardware (one of the reasons Kyle's so butthurt near the end of the Macross Saga).

The point is that we know they had an automated factory that required very little manpower, and practically limitless resources with which to work. It's not a money problem or a resources problem.

And yet "COST" is something we are told that is considered when it comes to programs. That cost has to be measured in some uniform fashion, and money makes the easiest approach.

The point is that we know they had an automated factory that required very little manpower, and practically limitless resources with which to work. It's not a money problem or a resources problem.

Do recall that the first facility they captured of this nature is said to be down, possibly even permanently. That means in 2013 the UEDF by indications doesn't have the massive automated facilities said satellite potentially can bring. The UEEF might be able to convert the lines for more manual inclusion. We also don't know when the UEEF secured the later ones or what state they are in compared to the 2013 facility. Indications are though that that it would be a post 2022 development since the UEEF mission didn't start in earnest until the launch of the SDF-3.

A finite floating supply that they were able to continually replenish with the protoculture matrix they had on the SDF-3... it only become limited once they "misplaced" the SDF-3 with Haydonite assistance.

When did the SDF-3 GET the Matrix/Factory though? Is it the SDF-1's (which would mean they didn't get it until post 2029) or is it a new/different one (which still requires knowing when they got it). Not to mention what raw materials does the Matrix/Factory actually need to run (one gets the impression that the Flowers are needed). The Matrix/Factory can't produce something out of nothing after all.

*coughs diffidently*

Infopedia article title is "Tokugawa-class Battleship".

(Welcome to unreliable reportage, population: Robotech. I wanted to make a joke here about a certain news channel, but discretion is the better part of valor.)

As I said I'm aware of the Infopedia stating its a Battleship and said as much, but that seems like a mis-identification when you really think about how it was used in TRM saga.

[glitterboy2098]

the implication in the show and canon comics is that the matrix on the SDF-3 is built from the remains of the matrix on the SDF-1, which was found in 2029, and evacuated from earth in 2030.

so for the 20 years prior to the invid arrival, earth would have been relying entirely on their stockpile of salvaged protoculture obtained from the remains of the zentraedi grand fleet.

and given that khyron's gunship after that battle had nearly empty fuel tanks, with no evidence of human meddling with it, it seems likely that much of that grand fleet was not at full fuel levels.

[Seto Kaiba]

And yet "COST" is something we are told that is considered when it comes to programs. That cost has to be measured in some uniform fashion, and money makes the easiest approach.

But we know that manufacturing resources, materiel, and fuel are not concerns... nor is monetary cost, as everything is controlled by the military directly. The only things that were in limited supply were time and manpower.

Do recall that the first facility they captured of this nature is said to be down, possibly even permanently.

Partly damaged... not wholly inoperable. They're implied to have built a massive fleet out of that one factory satellite... and within a few years they had a second one (Liberty station) which does not appear to have been functionally impaired.

When did the SDF-3 GET the Matrix/Factory though?

Depends on the writer... the current official continuity is not specific as to whether it was actually the matrix from the SDF-1 or a new one built by humanity thereafter.

The old Sentinels comics upon which Prelude was built assert a third theory distinct from either option you posited. They contend that the SDF-3 actually had the matrix from the SDF-1, salvaged from its wreckage shortly after the end of the Macross Saga... meaning it was recovered circa 2014-2015.

The Matrix/Factory can't produce something out of nothing after all.

Yet that's exactly how it's depicted... as producing fuel without needing any input of new material. It makes no sense, but there you have it.

As I said I'm aware of the Infopedia stating its a Battleship and said as much, but that seems like a mis-identification when you really think about how it was used in TRM saga.

Well, yes... but "Tokugawa-class deathtrap" is even more depressing.

[ShadowLogan]

But we know that manufacturing resources, materiel, and fuel are not concerns... nor is monetary cost, as everything is controlled by the military directly. The only things that were in limited supply were time and manpower.

Even under that model the Military/Govt. will need to have some way to measure if a program is better or worse than another program and if it should continue. And with multiple variables at play, they are going to look for a single catch all term. Weather it makes sense with the economic model attributed to them, it does appear that "cost" is still a factor based on programs where it gets cited.

Partly damaged... not wholly inoperable. They're implied to have built a massive fleet out of that one factory satellite... and within a few years they had a second one (Liberty station) which does not appear to have been functionally impaired.

That they can build at the facility I do not dispute (nothing should stop them from replacing the alien hardware with human hardware). What I dispute, is the ability to bring the full capabilities of the station into play. That means the fully automated production isn't available (and dialogue does point to that for the 1st RFS), which means production is going to be more limited. Depending on what's canon in the Sent. OVA, we see manual construction occuring on the SDF-3 hull, damaging the view point that they could use fully automated system of the Zentreadi satellites to build their ships.

Depends on the writer... the current official continuity is not specific as to whether it was actually the matrix from the SDF-1 or a new one built by humanity thereafter.

The old Sentinels comics upon which Prelude was built assert a third theory distinct from either option you posited. They contend that the SDF-3 actually had the matrix from the SDF-1, salvaged from its wreckage shortly after the end of the Macross Saga... meaning it was recovered circa 2014-2015.

I'm not familiar with the old comics, only the 85ep Legacy Version (haven't watched the "remastered/edited" stuff), Novels, and some of the more recent Yune-crap.

As for Prelude/old Sent. Comics, that would directly contradict the show which establishes the the Matrix/Factory was on Earth in 2029-30 period.

Yet that's exactly how it's depicted... as producing fuel without needing any input of new material. It makes no sense, but there you have it.

Where? The show seems to suggest that PC degenerates into the FoL, which has the PC spores and the matrix/factory processes those spores.

[Seto Kaiba]

What I dispute, is the ability to bring the full capabilities of the station into play. That means the fully automated production isn't available (and dialogue does point to that for the 1st RFS), which means production is going to be more limited.

Correction... even if the full capabilities of the station are not in play, that does not guarantee that they are unable to restore the automated production at any point. Even if we were to assume that the facility could never be restored to peak operating condition, it's still a factory that was designed to resupply and support over five million ships. Even at its peak, before Rick Hunter started throwing dozens of ships at the Invid's occupation force to no effect, the UEDF and UEEF wouldn't have been using the factory at 1/10,000th of its nominal maximum capacity.

To suggest that even a partly-disabled factory would be unable to meet the demands of the UEDF and UEEF when the facility was designed to support forces many orders of magnitude larger is rather comical.

Depending on what's canon in the Sent. OVA, we see manual construction occuring on the SDF-3 hull, damaging the view point that they could use fully automated system of the Zentreadi satellites to build their ships.

Correction, we see manual construction occurring on what we're told is (and what still officially is, AFAIK) a fake outer shell surrounding the SDF-3's actual spaceframe. That's not actual fabrication, so that might be something the factory satellite probably wasn't designed to do.

As for Prelude/old Sent. Comics, that would directly contradict the show which establishes the the Matrix/Factory was on Earth in 2029-30 period.

I'm sure someone in authority could make word salad to explain it away, but I'll just say that consistency is not something Robotech is renowned for and leave it at that. In the old comics, Zor's last protoculture factory was referred to like a distinct object from a matrix... they're never 100% clear on how though, but I would assume production vs. storage, a distinction that has since vanished. Of course, the comics also had the SDF-3 crew blissfully unaware that they'd dragged the damn thing with them into deep space too... the person who dropped that bombshell was Cabell, actually, who stopped just short of calling them idiots for it.

Where? The show seems to suggest that PC degenerates into the FoL, which has the PC spores and the matrix/factory processes those spores.

The show. They never put any flowers of life into the factory, but it produces protoculture and they think it's the last untainted source of FoL out there. Plot holes, lol.

[Tim Wing]

Okay, I'm back.... I'll leave out any and all ***** about work right now. lol. (Okay, maybe a litle *****. I had a 24 hour shift, and DoD computers block this forum, but I digress.)

Money, first of all, is simply a piece of paper used to symbolize material objects (metal, oil, grain) and services rendered (welding, designing, programming). It serves the same function in both demand and command economies. The only difference in both of these economies, as far as it effects our conversation, is how much control the government has over deciding this finite resource is spent.

Regardless, the UEDF/UEEF had just one planetary system, a factory satellite, a severely depleted population and a junk yard at their disposal; versus the Robotech Masters who had an entire empire with who knows how many worlds, peoples, factory satellites, etc...

Plus, the Masters had about 1000 years to build up their forces, vs 20 or so for the Earth.

So, yes, we had the raw material to turn the wreckage of the Zentraedi fleet into a new fleet of similar size and power, but these things do not create themselves. How long does it take to for a factory satellite to produce a ship? Does it even produce a ship? We only see it producing battle pods... and its line breaks down while doing so. In the Macross OSM, the Zentraedi ships are claimed to have been built on Armory Planets... not that I'm saying that this really applies to Robotech. I'm just saying it was likely not a case of the UEDF/UEEF flipping an "on" switch on the production line for "Giant space ships".

Also, one has to take into account a possibly limited supply of certain other resources: Monopole ore comes to mind. If you need monopole ore to build a fold engine (or run one) and much of the Monopole or in the Zentraedi fleet got blasted into space durring the big battle, making it very hard to salvage, that in and of its self might put you over a barrel.

Any way, my argument is thus:

one planet + degraded population + 20 years = small fleet of small ships.

100's or maybe 1000's of planets + corresponding "mature" populations + 1000 years = massive fleet of massive ships

[Tim Wing]

Also, the matrix was left on Earth, in the remains of the SDF-1. That is what the Masters came for. All a matrix is, as far as my understanding goes, is a collection of viable FOL seeds. That is, seeds that can germinate and reproduce on their own. This is how the Earth gets covered in them. I get the distinct feeling that we did not know it was there. Other wise we would have taken it.

I have no knowledge of the SDF-3 having taken the matrix. If so, could some one reference that for me?

Any, once again, my argument here is:

We had a finite supply of Protoculture. How much? About enough to power the fleet we built.

[Seto Kaiba]

Regardless, the UEDF/UEEF had just one planetary system, a factory satellite, a severely depleted population and a junk yard at their disposal; versus the Robotech Masters who had an entire empire with who knows how many worlds, peoples, factory satellites, etc...

's got a few inaccuracies... the United Earth Government, military sockpuppet that it was, had control over a single planetary system but in fairly short order gained possession of at least two factory satellites. Possibly three or more, depending on whether the factory satellite from Sentinels is not the same one that they captured in the series... and that's before the paint's even dry on the SDF-3.

Also, the Robotech Masters' empire was already pretty much dead by that point thanks to the aggression of the Invid Regent and the Masters abandonment of Tirol.

Plus, the Masters had about 1000 years to build up their forces, [...]

The Masters forces during that period were the Zentradi, who ended up a cloud of debris orbiting Earth... so whatever forces they had simply whatever was left and whatever they could come up with in medias res.

So, yes, we had the raw material to turn the wreckage of the Zentraedi fleet into a new fleet of similar size and power, but these things do not create themselves. How long does it take to for a factory satellite to produce a ship? Does it even produce a ship?

Thus far, every factory satellite that has been depicted has been depicted as a working shipyard... and they seem to build pretty damn quick if you put all the statements about the SDF-4 together. That ship is easily the single largest human warship ever built in Robotech, and the first SDF built from scratch. They've also said that the SDF-4 was built for the Reclamation Force mission and that it was built around its shadow tech systems.

Taken together, that means that the SDF-4 was built IN JUST ONE YEAR.

If we go against a literal reading of the information and assume they started building it for the Reclamation Force as soon as the 2nd Reclamation Force was wiped out, and modified it in mid-construction for shadow technology, that only stretches the timeframe out to two years. That's impressive.

In the Macross OSM, the Zentraedi ships are claimed to have been built on Armory Planets... not that I'm saying that this really applies to Robotech.

Actually, Tommy probably got the idea of the factory satellites being massive shipyards FROM Macross.

How? Because that's exactly what the UN Spacy uses them as in Macross. The factory satellite they'd captured in the original series was the one that built many of the Megaroad-class colony ships, and as far as we're aware continues to build ships and fighters and other things to the "present day".

Tommy's pretty fond of borrowing ideas from the Macross 'verse. That's why the Pioneer Mission has been retconned from "find the Robotech Masters and (maybe) kick their teeth in" to "explore space to find worlds to colonize while we do it".

Also, one has to take into account a possibly limited supply of certain other resources: Monopole ore comes to mind. If you need monopole ore to build a fold engine [...]

"Monopole ore" does not exist in Robotech proper, though it is mentioned that humanity had problems duplicating the technology until much later... hence their decision to recycle salvaged fold drives taken from Zentradi wreckage.

one planet + degraded population + 20 years = small fleet of small ships.

"Small" is subjective... any fleet is small compared to the Zentradi fleet, but the Robotech Masters didn't come packing a massive fleet either. Most of their ships are smaller than a Zentradi scoutship, with their handful of big motherships leading the charge. The bigger problem on humanity's side was not that their fleet was "small", it was that most of it was simply not present and what was left combined with what was sent back to help would've found themselves signally incapable of interrupting a tea party on a Masters mothership, let alone tangibly threatening it. They were just not equipped for that kind of warfare. Bad design met bad leadership and the child "poor performance" was the inevitable result.

100's or maybe 1000's of planets + corresponding "mature" populations + 1000 years = massive fleet of massive ships

That's all past tense though, and their power is only a tiny, infinitesimally small fraction of what it was before they lost the Zentradi.

[Seto Kaiba]

I have no knowledge of the SDF-3 having taken the matrix. If so, could some one reference that for me?

"All of Shadow Chronicles"... the SDF-3 is explicitly established to have the ONLY protoculture matrix when it goes missing.

Also, the matrix was left on Earth, in the remains of the SDF-1.

Supposedly.

All a matrix is, as far as my understanding goes, is a collection of viable FOL seeds. That is, seeds that can germinate and reproduce on their own.

At present, the official definition of a "protoculture matrix" given in AotSC is that it's a device that converts the FoL into protoculture fuel.

This is how the Earth gets covered in them.

That's caused by the Robotech Masters mothership blowing up over the three mounds and scattering the FoL growing there.

[glitterboy2098]

and the FoL growing there is explicitly specified to be from the protoculture matrix/factory. by the master's as well as Zor, and the narrator.

[ShadowLogan]

Correction... even if the full capabilities of the station are not in play, that does not guarantee that they are unable to restore the automated production at any point. Even if we were to assume that the facility could never be restored to peak operating condition, it's still a factory that was designed to resupply and support over five million ships. Even at its peak, before Rick Hunter started throwing dozens of ships at the Invid's occupation force to no effect, the UEDF and UEEF wouldn't have been using the factory at 1/10,000th of its nominal maximum capacity.

To suggest that even a partly-disabled factory would be unable to meet the demands of the UEDF and UEEF when the facility was designed to support forces many orders of magnitude larger is rather comical.

I agree they could restore automation at some point and at some level of capacity. However that does not mean they can make full use of those abilities for the ~30year period the UEEF mission covers to date (I'm including the 2013 capture mission as UEEF). In order for the UEEF/UEDF to fully utilize any RFS unit, they would have to be able to retool the facility for their designs, which may not be possible or require a much larger investment in resources than they are willing to do.

Also recall that the Super Shadow Fighters had not yet had their Haydonite technology installed, so clearly the factory satellite(s) aren't producing complete units.

I would point out that it wasn't one factory setup to support 6million warships, but rather a network of said facilities. There is a huge difference.

Correction, we see manual construction occurring on what we're told is (and what still officially is, AFAIK) a fake outer shell surrounding the SDF-3's actual spaceframe. That's not actual fabrication, so that might be something the factory satellite probably wasn't designed to do.

Yes I know it was an outer shell they are working on, but the RFS automation facility should still not have had a problem with building it up around the actual hull. (Actually prior to the Ship comparision Chart at RT.com I thought that that WAS the SDF-3 as it was supposed to resemble a "friendly" ship, granted that is the Novelization coloring my view of the animation, and likely the 1E RPG's take to).

I'm sure someone in authority could make word salad to explain it away, but I'll just say that consistency is not something Robotech is renowned for and leave it at that. In the old comics, Zor's last protoculture factory was referred to like a distinct object from a matrix... they're never 100% clear on how though, but I would assume production vs. storage, a distinction that has since vanished. Of course, the comics also had the SDF-3 crew blissfully unaware that they'd dragged the damn thing with them into deep space too... the person who dropped that bombshell was Cabell, actually, who stopped just short of calling them idiots for it.

Yeah I'm sure HG/TPTB would jump through hoops to explain it away. I am with the impression though the Factory and Matrix are the same thing.

The show. They never put any flowers of life into the factory, but it produces protoculture and they think it's the last untainted source of FoL out there. Plot holes, lol.

TRM saga doesn't show it directly, but the impression I get is they need the spores the FoL produce to make PC.

Actually, Tommy probably got the idea of the factory satellites being massive shipyards FROM Macross.

No need for Tommy to exploit Macross on this matter, its part of 85ep RT. RT Dialogue during the briefing mission at the end of "The Robotech Masters" has Exedore stating "yesterday we finally spotted the Zentreadi automated Robotech Factory Satellite within the Satellite are being constructed space cruisers large enough to destroy the Earth with a single blast (shocked gasps) yes it is a terrible thing".

However we don't see the shipyards during Gloval's tour two episodes later, just the Regult line that poops out on them and we're told may be down for good.

[guardiandashi]

Re the protoculture matrix.
The old story the way I remember it was: Zor created the original PC matrix after spending time getting the secrets of pc from the Regis which the invid had been using as food, and to help their race evolve.
The masters Harvested ALL the FOL plants from Opthera the Invid home world, then defoliated the world, but somehow the Invid survived. (but were understandably very upset)

The masters then tried planting FOL on various other planets where they discovered that the things mutated to a form that was incompatable to existing Matrixes and they didn't understand the fundamentals of protoculture conversion from spores to fuel well enough to adapt the tech to the mutated plants.

Zors big "crime" as far as the masters were concerned was taking the last (or only) "true Matrix" stuffed it in his battlefortress and sent it to earth (this is what becomes the SDF-1)

Earth never really got into the "core of the engines" where the matrix was hidden away, so after Khyron destroyed the SDF-1, and -2 it got left in the wreckage.

when the Masters ship was excavating the Matrix, and their ship was basically destroyed it cracked the matrix and let the captive spores out.

the SDF-3 did NOT have a Matrix of their own until Rem, and Lang built a new one at Tyrol and even then it wasn't quite right because they were working with mutated pc plants, and Zors original matrix design.

The reason the Invid were so happy about the FOL on earth is (at least in the book adaption I read) is that it turns out that the FOL actually evolved on earth, but Haydon moved them to Optera in the first place.

and of course where that story got really weird, was that the kids on the SDF-3 "stole" the fold drive from the SDF-1 to get the ship out of the dimensional space/pocket it was stuck in, and Minme and Rem had a kid who was the Original Zor, and it turns out a key factor in "tuning" a Matrix is music and or songs.

In that the explanation on what protoculture fuel is, is rather bizzare, basically the matrix has some FOL seeds/spores inside it, and they "attempt to grow" but the matrix won't let them, so somehow this creates the bio fuel that is referred to as protoculture fuel.

[Seto Kaiba]

and the FoL growing there is explicitly specified to be from the protoculture matrix/factory. by the master's as well as Zor, and the narrator.

Like I said, consistency is in very short supply in Robotech.

In order for the UEEF/UEDF to fully utilize any RFS unit, they would have to be able to retool the facility for their designs, which may not be possible or require a much larger investment in resources than they are willing to do.

Yet they seem to have done exactly that with Liberty station, which means it's certainly possible that they've done it to the others... the one in Sentinels certainly looks thoroughly human-renovated, and they can't have had that one for more than a few years at the time we see it.

Also recall that the Super Shadow Fighters had not yet had their Haydonite technology installed, so clearly the factory satellite(s) aren't producing complete units.

Those are explicitly established to be prototypes, not production units. You don't run prototypes off the same line as your main mass production. Like any good developer/manufacturer of complex hardware, the Liberty Station staff likely have a pilot plant somewhere in the research wings where one-offs or limited trial runs of various designs are produced for testing.

I would point out that it wasn't one factory setup to support 6million warships, but rather a network of said facilities. There is a huge difference.

They identify the one from the series as the one supporting the Zentradi... the others aren't even mentioned until RTSC, so Breetai may not have even known they exist and they may be supplying other things for other forces.

Yes I know it was an outer shell they are working on, but the RFS automation facility should still not have had a problem with building it up around the actual hull.

The satellites are made for large-scale mass production, not one-off trial builds... that could easily be why. It could also be as simple as them using salvaged hullskin and needing to make it work in an impromptu fashion.

(Actually prior to the Ship comparision Chart at RT.com I thought that that WAS the SDF-3 as it was supposed to resemble a "friendly" ship, granted that is the Novelization coloring my view of the animation, and likely the 1E RPG's take to).

*shrug* As far as the RT series itself, it's always been a big phony skin around a ship we never actually see. You get the feeling that Macek may have intended for the SDF-3 to eventually ditch the skin, but they never got as far as designing what was underneath it.

Yeah I'm sure HG/TPTB would jump through hoops to explain it away. I am with the impression though the Factory and Matrix are the same thing.

Entirely understandable, because the series is never clear on which one is what and sometimes swaps terms without explanation. Harmony Gold's current attitude seems to be that these are two different things tho... or at least that's how it sounds from the definition in AotSC.

Re the protoculture matrix.
The old story the way I remember it was: [...]

Principally from the novels... leavened with a bit of stuff from the old comics. Thanks to Harmony Gold's odd "anything goes" policy towards licensees after Sentinels spun in, there are multiple accounts that rarely line up neatly in the details.

That ending you mentioned is the novel "End of the Circle", and the explanation of protoculture is from RT Art 1... which is, as far as we've heard from HG, not applicable anymore on a variety of levels.

Still, good memory you've got.

's also worth mentioning, just for teh lulz, the leaked outline for the rest of the RTSC plot outline that was leaked by one of Tommy's best buddies indicated that the Tirolians would successfully clone Zor AGAIN at the end of the whole Haydonite mess and he'd solve the problem by building ANOTHER matrix and then building some really damn big gun to wipe the Haydonites out when they tried to drop a huge asteroid on Tirol...

[mech798]

The problme with the factory sattelite gets back again to the narrative smallness of HG's storyline.

Let's consider that the factory sattelite is up to 500KM high and about 3000KM long going by the last statistics. that's... well unimginably huge. The problem isn't having production capability, it's actually getting to it or figuring out how to use it. "Go find the main control center" is looking through a system that is equal to millions of NYCs-- and it's entirely likely the robotech masters didn't provide much in the way of easy control systems-- my take is that the system is much like a vending machine-- zent forces go and say: we need two flagships and 10,000 battlepods and the thing spits it out.

But the problem isn't the sattelite-- it's finding people to staff it. Note that even if we assume a few hundred million people survived the rain of death, there's enough room on the factory sattelite to house them all-comfortably, complete with habitat zones that would be big enough to feel almost completely natural.

The other problem mentioned is the protoculture problems. I mean, I hate sentinels, I really do because honestly, I don't care how hard SMLH is to make, anyone with an IQ above ABSOLUTE ZERO would note view the wreckage of the MAster's empire...and turn around and do the very same thing that killed it. We have to note that even before the regess, protoculture and it's matrix is essentially magic. Nobody but Zor understood the makings of the One Ring-er, protoculture and once it goes away, anyone who depends on it is dead. I mean, the Haydonites didn't need to do anything other than kill the SDF-3 (Ah Admiral hunter, putting the single irreplacable thing on the battleship) and wait a year. That's one thing that pretty much killed any interest I had in whatever HG is planning on doing with Robotech-- because we know wwhat it is-- another desperate quest for the matrix only with humanity in the position of the robotech masters.

They identify the one from the series as the one supporting the Zentradi... the others aren't even mentioned until RTSC, so Breetai may not have even known they exist and they may be supplying other things for other forces.

I think that may be splash over from Macross honeslty-- where Dolza's fleet was only one of many, most of which had their own satellite to supply them that was part of a vast network. Given that in robotech Dozla's fleet is pretty much it, I don't see the need for more than few moon sized factory units.

[Tim Wing]

So, sticking our heads up out of the weeds for a moment, why did the UEDF/UEEF have such a small fleet full of relatively ineffective ships?

I think we can agree that, for some reason, they were unable to build a big fleet full of effective ships.

Why were they unable?

The only other option is, they were unable but didn't want to. (They knew what an effective fleet looked like after all... they just got finished fighting the Zentraedi.)

[mech798]

People. POr rather, the lack of people. Even if we assume that several tens of millions survive the attack or a few hundred million (sorry HG, you're numbers make absolutely no sense-- the minimal level for any kind of advanced technological society would be several tens of millions, and that's been confirmed by professionals in this field, IE some of my colleagues in sociology and engineering).

The problem is that the SDF-1 took the intellectural resources of nearly the entire planet to put back together, imperfectly, over 10 years. Most of those guys are now dead- notice that Lang is the only scientist of note we see, and he's asked a wide range of questions-- questions that you would normally toss to a specialist. So when it gets to "Design the Banshee" instead of a group of world class engineering experts, headed up by a nobel prize winner, you get...
The graduating class of Corinita Junior College who were about to get their AA in Engineering, headed up by a few people with BA's and MA's in the field. That's it. The reserve of experience (and there's a big one, just look at how hard China's had to work to refit and field an aircraft carrier) that was needed is gone. Every one is having to wear five hats and in many cases take pre-war design studies at face value because they simply don't have the people to toss everything out and start from scratch.

then there's the fact that outside of the SDF-1, none of earth's warships had a fair test-- even at the outset the ARMORs were outnumbered and in the final battle, losing to four million warships isn't exactly something that screams THIS IS A BAD DESIGN.

Finally, the military leadership was clearly biased towards mecha-- because the same factors that led the Corinata JC to becoming the Corinita Design Bureau led Rick Hunter, guy without any formal military training, to become Admiral hunter, guy with a LOT of influence of allocation decisions. The Engineers at Buships who might say: wait a minute, if that's the case, why do the zentraedi have so many big ships are all dead. WE can see the influence of this in the fact of the sheer proliferation of veritech designs-- designs using a very limited number of engineers.

You can see this in the factory sat-- why were they building pods that they couldnt use (beyhond the fact that in the original Macross those were tasked for allied zentraedi), because at this point, nobody had reverse engineerd the systems, even if htey could. In fact, it's quite possible that the way they "used" the sat in the beginning was to have it produce zentreadi units and then dismantle those units to make use of what they needed-- because they couldn't yet tell the station to "just build the fold drive's, mkay" instead of churning out scoutships with fold drives.

That would be my goto decision. It also explains a lot of bad leadership-- with most of the support structure gone, in many cases, military and civil decisions devolved to people who normally wouldn't be allowed to make them and were more based on who screamed loudest.

[Seto Kaiba]

Let's consider that the factory sattelite is up to 500KM high and about 3000KM long going by the last statistics. that's... well unimginably huge.

I think a better way of illustrating how ridiculously huge that thing is is to note that the animation shows it's been parked at Earth-Moon L5, and IT'S STILL VISIBLE TO THE NAKED EYE FROM EARTH'S SURFACE.

That's one of those mind=blown moments.

The problem isn't having production capability, it's actually getting to it or figuring out how to use it. "Go find the main control center" is looking through a system that is equal to millions of NYCs-- and it's entirely likely the robotech masters didn't provide much in the way of easy control systems-- my take is that the system is much like a vending machine-- zent forces go and say: we need two flagships and 10,000 battlepods and the thing spits it out.

They did take some of the garrison "prisoner", so they probably had help.

But the problem isn't the sattelite-- it's finding people to staff it.

Considering "automated" is a big part of its name...

The other problem mentioned is the protoculture problems. I mean, I hate sentinels, I really do because honestly, I don't care how hard SMLH is to make, anyone with an IQ above ABSOLUTE ZERO would note view the wreckage of the MAster's empire...and turn around and do the very same thing that killed it.

Yep.

I think that may be splash over from Macross honeslty-- where Dolza's fleet was only one of many, most of which had their own satellite to supply them that was part of a vast network. Given that in robotech Dozla's fleet is pretty much it, I don't see the need for more than few moon sized factory units.

Probably not... in the original Macross, Vrlitwhai never says that the factory is the only one. He says they're going to capture "a" factory satellite, not "the" factory satellite... his dialog doesn't have a definite article when they refer to the satellite.

In fact, in the original Macross and its sequels, a Zentradi main fleet had a network of several dozen factory satellites supplying it. Anywhere from 20 to 50 satellites per main fleet, on average.

So, sticking our heads up out of the weeds for a moment, why did the UEDF/UEEF have such a small fleet full of relatively ineffective ships?

Why're you chilling out in the foliage?

I think we can agree that, for some reason, they were unable to build a big fleet full of effective ships.

I think it's a question of what constitutes "effective"...

The ships they had would probably have been quite effective against an adversary who fought using all the same rules of war they were used to. The problem, one that's explicitly acknowledged at least once, is the United Earth Forces are building their ships based on certain expectations that almost invariably turn out to have been wide of the mark for what they end up facing. In short, building to the wrong market. It didn't help that humans are technologically behind every adversary they face... often by a considerable margin.

The ships of the first war were built in ignorance of the "accepted" rules of void warfare... apparently using the basic expectation that they'd be facing a carrier-oriented force rather than a battleship-oriented one as they did. That and sheer weight of numbers meant they were utterly hosed.

The ships of the second war were partly based on the ignorance from before the first war, and partly for an enemy who thought defensive technology was for chumps. Consequentially they got mangled by the more technologically advanced ships of the Robotech Masters, against whose defenses their weapons were of no more use than harsh language.

The ships of the third and fourth wars were actually built for planetary assault operations, but they weren't built to fight an enemy that believes in acceptable losses and swarm warfare. Ships designed to fight foes who didn't have orbital defenses or inexhaustible reserves found themselves fighting a foe who operate on the principle that quantity has a quality all its own. A lack of effective point-defenses and ship-to-ship gun systems is fine when you're assaulting an occupied planet from orbit, but against a space-based foe whose forces massively outnumbered their own and were perfectly at ease with suicide attacks, they were merely large, slow-moving targets.

In short, they stink because three times out of three they found themselves fighting against an enemy that fought in a way they weren't designed to fight. As the Battle of Reflex Point shows, once they can level the playing field by negating the enemy's overwhelming technological and doctrinal advantages, those ships are actually reasonably effective.

[taalismn]

[ Kinda makes you wonder if Rick had something against Vince Grant when he sent him in a Tokugawa-class ship to hunt down Edwards... and makes the way the Tokugawa is one-shotted and sunk without firing a shot a little more understandable.

What the WRITERS have against Vince.
In the (defunct) Sentinels novels and comics, he's in charge of the GMU....another ill-starred white elephant.
Did he get the better deal with the GMU or the Tokugawa?

[Tim Wing]

People. POr rather, the lack of people. Even if we assume that several tens of millions survive the attack or a few hundred million (sorry HG, you're numbers make absolutely no sense-- the minimal level for any kind of advanced technological society would be several tens of millions, and that's been confirmed by professionals in this field, IE some of my colleagues in sociology and engineering).

Thank you thank you thank you

Yeah.... I thought the official answer of 70,000 (as taken from the narrator) was a little... impossible.

[mech798]

People. POr rather, the lack of people. Even if we assume that several tens of millions survive the attack or a few hundred million (sorry HG, you're numbers make absolutely no sense-- the minimal level for any kind of advanced technological society would be several tens of millions, and that's been confirmed by professionals in this field, IE some of my colleagues in sociology and engineering).

Thank you thank you thank you

Yeah.... I thought the official answer of 70,000 (as taken from the narrator) was a little... impossible.

Well the problem with that isn't just the people-- if you assume that there are no survivors on earth, then that means that nearly every surface portion of earth has been hit with a reflex weapon or energy blast. Every place, from LA to stone age settlements (discounting the largest city on teh east coast which somehow got missed).

that doesn't only kill the people, that destroys the ecology. You've lost all the plants, all the animals, you're going to have a nuclear winter that makes the worst predictions of the 1980s look minor. Now we saw some of that, gbut if the entire world was like that (and remember mcuh of it was shown as not being like that), not only would earth be devasted, earth probably would never recover ecologically as in "this world will never support life again."

In that case, why did anyone stick around? Hop into some of the zentraedi ships, grab what you could, remembering that the Matrix is on teh SDF-1 and leave because the only thing that makes earth special now is that the Robotech Masters know exactly where it is.

The other problem comes from things like the jungle and the numerous settlemetns we see. Jungles are actually very fragile ecosystems-- its' survival two years after the rain of death indicates that A. the ecological disruption was not as bad as it should have been and B. not a lot of direct hits were in that zone, and to be hoenst there were twenty or thirty million people living in the Amazon region alone.

So the evidence of the show, indicates that the bombardment was not nearly as dramatic as claimed-- that in fact it must have been restricted to the more heavily developed continents, with follow up strikes planned for later-- which did not happen. That of course contradicts the Zentradi claims but well again: They *missed* New York City.

[Tim Wing]

In short, they stink because three times out of three they found themselves fighting against an enemy that fought in a way they weren't designed to fight. As the Battle of Reflex Point shows, once they can level the playing field by negating the enemy's overwhelming technological and doctrinal advantages, those ships are actually reasonably effective.

This, I think, sums up the situation fairly nicely. I always thought it was a little unfair to call the Earth originated ship totally crappy... just over matched.

Okay, so what was the main weapon of a Southern Cross era ship? I'm thinking they were relying on nuclear missiles, which were shown to be fairly effective in the First War. (Such as when an ARMD destroyed a Zentraedi cruiser in the first episode.) Nuclear weapons were both easier to produce, and less energy intensive than Reflex Cannons. Launch a bunch of them, and one missile is fairly likely to make it through a Zentraedi ship's close in defenses. But against a Master Mother Ship? Not so much. Those things seemed to have a proliferation of very effective close in defense systems. And then against the Invid? Against reasonable numbers of enemy ships, this would work okay too. Plus, the cannons on the Southern Cross and Invid Occupation era ships seem to be heavy enough to down an Invid "clam" ship. Its only when you see the sort of numbers that you do above Earth that UEEF doctrine starts to fail.

Also, I posit that the reclamation battles for Earth were the first time that the UEEF faced Invid in such numbers. I chalk this up to the fact that on Earth, the Invid for the first time had a big supply of Protoculture, and thus were able to reproduce and build mecha at a rate not yet seen by the UEEF. Before that, I'm guessing they were facing smaller numbers.

Also, maybe the Invid swarm tactics were a doctrinal answer to UEEF equipment and tactics?

[glitterboy2098]

the main advantage of master's ships vs the ASC's missile heavy armaments seems to be less point defense, and mostly the master's force fields. shields of that kind were something the zentraedi didn't have, and given the zent's were probably kept well away from the master's most of the time, it seems fair to assume breetai, exodor, and the rest just didn't know enough of what the master's fleet was capable of to let earth properly plan to counter master's tech.

when the ASC can keep up a good bombardment going (like they did with the downed mothership) they seem to be able to punch through, but from the engagements in the show, it seems that if the mothership is still mobile, it'll just move away any time the shields start having trouble.

it isn't until near the end, when the master's are really facing a protoculture shortage, that the ASC seems to make any headway against the mother ships.. and even then it looks pretty limited.

[Tim Wing]

I was including the force shields as part of the point defense, but yeah. Exactly.

[ShadowLogan]

Yet they seem to have done exactly that with Liberty station, which means it's certainly possible that they've done it to the others... the one in Sentinels certainly looks thoroughly human-renovated, and they can't have had that one for more than a few years at the time we see it.

I'm not so sure they did with Liberty though. The UEEF did have to have assistance from the Kabarren after all to meet all their production needs as established in Prelude.

Those are explicitly established to be prototypes, not production units. You don't run prototypes off the same line as your main mass production. Like any good developer/manufacturer of complex hardware, the Liberty Station staff likely have a pilot plant somewhere in the research wings where one-offs or limited trial runs of various designs are produced for testing.

prototypes that are said to be just like regular shadow fighters so they could have pulled them as baseline units and modified them off the line to accept the new hardware (Fast-packs basically), but if that is the case why where the Shadow System absent as there is nothing to indicate the SSFs would have some different version of the device than the standard model.

They identify the one from the series as the one supporting the Zentradi... the others aren't even mentioned until RTSC, so Breetai may not have even known they exist and they may be supplying other things for other forces.

True, as you said this gets into the mess of consistency. For all their efforts to make RT more consistent, it really feels like HG has just found new ways to cause issues.

The satellites are made for large-scale mass production, not one-off trial builds... that could easily be why. It could also be as simple as them using salvaged hullskin and needing to make it work in an impromptu fashion.

True, but you would think the Masters would have the facility capable of producing those one-offs for special missions and evaluations. It also depends I guess in how big or small the production batches can be, and if the (native) shipyards use the assembly line approach (like we see the Regults) or build it all up in one place. An assembly line would be much harder to build one-offs, but the build in one place would be ideal for it.

There is also no reason that the UEEF could not use those same shells to disguise Tok.'s (15years old by 2029-30) given they are similar in basic size to the SDF-3 (in 2043, the 2022 SDF-3 is about 500m longer than the model in 2043 due to the shell). Especially if those shells are designed to work with either ship type. After all it would ruin the disguise if the SDF-3 showed up w/unknown designs in tow, and it might appear odd w/o escorts.

*shrug* As far as the RT series itself, it's always been a big phony skin around a ship we never actually see. You get the feeling that Macek may have intended for the SDF-3 to eventually ditch the skin, but they never got as far as designing what was underneath it.

Well the series itself never really addresses the SDF-3. As I said, I'm not sure if what we are seeing is the exo-hull or the actual hull given other takes back in pre-reboot days, and present HG may just be going against what they say due to peoples dislike for the those mediums.

Did he get the better deal with the GMU or the Tokugawa?

GMU. They had to abandon the GMU in orbit around Praxis and it didn't result in him becoming a POW.

the main advantage of master's ships vs the ASC's missile heavy armaments seems to be less point defense, and mostly the master's force fields. shields of that kind were something the zentraedi didn't have, and given the zent's were probably kept well away from the master's most of the time, it seems fair to assume breetai, exodor, and the rest just didn't know enough of what the master's fleet was capable of to let earth properly plan to counter master's tech.

But force field should not have been unknown to either the Zentreadi or the UEDF. The UEDF used force field technology in the last war, so while it might be a surprise to see someone using it, it still should not have been that much of a surprise. Also the Zentreadi mention the UEDF force field technology (in "Bursting Point") is of a type they've never encountered before (and in same episode mention keeping shields up), suggesting that basically force fields aren't anything new to them.

[Seto Kaiba]

In that case, why did anyone stick around?

Because they'd be hosed for stringing the three shows together if they did that...

So the evidence of the show, indicates that the bombardment was not nearly as dramatic as claimed-- that in fact it must have been restricted to the more heavily developed continents, with follow up strikes planned for later-- which did not happen. That of course contradicts the Zentradi claims but well again: They *missed* New York City.

That's an assumption based on only one interpretation of that remarks... considering humanity's displayed predilection for rebuilding things, it's entirely possible they rebuilt New York City and it got destroyed AGAIN during the Masters War.

This, I think, sums up the situation fairly nicely. I always thought it was a little unfair to call the Earth originated ship totally crappy... just over matched.

Pretty much... the Southern Cross Army in particular was bringing a pellet gun to a tank fight.

Okay, so what was the main weapon of a Southern Cross era ship? I'm thinking they were relying on nuclear missiles, which were shown to be fairly effective in the First War. (Such as when an ARMD destroyed a Zentraedi cruiser in the first episode.)

The ARMDs were packing reflex warheads according to dialog in the series... while the stats for the ASC ships in canon indicates their main weapons are still mostly missiles, though the Tokugawa's are inexplicably identified as NUCLEAR missiles rather than reflex ones. The Tristar's are all reflex though.

Cue head-scratching.

Also, maybe the Invid swarm tactics were a doctrinal answer to UEEF equipment and tactics?

Doesn't seem that way, based on the few Invid encounters that still exist in canon... but the sheer weight of numbers is never as great as it is when they're fighting the Regess. The difference between being outnumbered 10 to 1 vs. 1000 to 1.

I'm not so sure they did with Liberty though. The UEEF did have to have assistance from the Kabarren after all to meet all their production needs as established in Prelude.

They also didn't use Liberty station for that, they used orbital shipyards above Tirol.

As for whether the renovated Liberty entirely on their own or not... we have neither a yea or nay from HG, and thus we cannot say.

prototypes that are said to be just like regular shadow fighters so they could have pulled them as baseline units and modified them off the line to accept the new hardware

Not in the AotSC book, which indicates that the fighters have been modded all the way to the design redline.

True, as you said this gets into the mess of consistency. For all their efforts to make RT more consistent, it really feels like HG has just found new ways to cause issues.

They're making the best they can with a horrid mess Carl Macek left them... the quest for consistency in the Robotech franchise is downright Quixotic.

True, but you would think the Masters would have the facility capable of producing those one-offs for special missions and evaluations.

The Masters may simply do things the same way... manually build units for one-off test purposes, or maybe they just don't do physical testing, and use some kind of ridiculously OP supercomputer modeling to test a new design without having to build it first.

There is also no reason that the UEEF could not use those same shells to disguise Tok.'s (15years old by 2029-30) given they are similar in basic size to the SDF-3 (in 2043, the 2022 SDF-3 is about 500m longer than the model in 2043 due to the shell).

Ploooooooooooooot hole!

[mech798]

True, but you would think the Masters would have the facility capable of producing those one-offs for special missions and evaluations.

The Masters may simply do things the same way... manually build units for one-off test purposes, or maybe they just don't do physical testing, and use some kind of ridiculously OP supercomputer modeling to test a new design without having to build it first.

Well we know the zentraedi have a limited number of units and the masters have no intersest in letting them be independent. The factory may not have any design facilities-- it downloads instructions from an offsite source and most production lines are designed to build one thing-- and it takes time to figure out how to change that.

[Seto Kaiba]

The factory may not have any design facilities-- it downloads instructions from an offsite source and most production lines are designed to build one thing-- and it takes time to figure out how to change that.

Whether the Research & Development wings in the factory satellite known as Space Station Liberty were part of the station's original layout or were repurposed areas is unknown... so there is at least a remote possibility the factory satellites do contain (disused) development areas.

However, I suspect the Masters probably develop their technology in computer modeling and then forward a blueprint to the satellites for production. After all, more and more of our own engineering is being done in a CAD/CAM-type virtual environment and with other complex pre-production modeling techniques, with a good deal less time spent tinkering with mules and pre-production prototypes.


EDIT: One must also wonder if the factory satellites in Robotech have the self-improvement functions their Macross counterparts have...

[ShadowLogan]

They also didn't use Liberty station for that, they used orbital shipyards above Tirol.

As for whether the renovated Liberty entirely on their own or not... we have neither a yea or nay from HG, and thus we cannot say.

So even w/o all these RFS facilities the UEEF is supposed to have acquired, there is no real indication they aret using them in the manner they could be (churning out large forces) suggesting that the RFS facilities may be nothing more than "empty shells" at this point as suggested in TMS saga.

Not in the AotSC book, which indicates that the fighters have been modded all the way to the design redline.

Which doesn't rule out they started as regular fighters and are retro-fitted with all the new hardware for modification instead of trying to build something from the ground up that has a large degree of commonality with a production unit. Especially when you consider that the SSFs basically are at the redline because of the fast pack system, and those fast packs are at the heart of what makes a SSF a SSF by all indications.

They're making the best they can with a horrid mess Carl Macek left them..

Could fool me.

The Masters may simply do things the same way... manually build units for one-off test purposes, or maybe they just don't do physical testing, and use some kind of ridiculously OP supercomputer modeling to test a new design without having to build it first.

We know they do physical testing per TRM saga (when they test 3-act-1 system with those floating spiked globes).

They still have to manufacture the parts to go into the prototypes and then assemble them. If the prototype is going to have a high degree of commonality with the baseline system, it would seem to make more sense to modify an existing example than assemble it completely. There are cases of research aircraft being modified to test things (NASA has done such with the F-16XL, F/A-18), and even modified production designs for training purposes instead of building a new design (NF-104).

[Seto Kaiba]

So even w/o all these RFS facilities the UEEF is supposed to have acquired, there is no real indication they aret using them in the manner they could be (churning out large forces) suggesting that the RFS facilities may be nothing more than "empty shells" at this point as suggested in TMS saga. [...]

Well, there's a more important factor to consider... do they NEED to use them to churn out enormous amounts of war materiel? If one factory satellite was sufficient to meet the needs of nearly six million very large warships whose resource needs surely eclipse those of UEEF ships, do they really need to use the full capabilities of multiple factory satellites to sustain their meager (for the setting) force of just 500 small-ish ships?

Even though we're told Liberty Station is a factory satellite, they don't seem to actually use it for its original purpose... as we see it, it's shown as being more like a space dock and supply yard more than a fabrication facility.

Which doesn't rule out they started as regular fighters and are retro-fitted with all the new hardware for modification instead of trying to build something from the ground up that has a large degree of commonality with a production unit.

Quite true, yes... many test mules start out as production vehicles that are either removed from the line in the middle of assembly and completed by hand with whatever experimental hardware needs testing, or just built to production spec by hand in a pilot plant.

Especially when you consider that the SSFs basically are at the redline because of the fast pack system, and those fast packs are at the heart of what makes a SSF a SSF by all indications.

The heart of it, but not the whole of it if the description in AotSC is anything to go by.

They're making the best they can with a horrid mess Carl Macek left them..

Could fool me.

That's why I said "the best they can", not "a good job".

We know they do physical testing per TRM saga (when they test 3-act-1 system with those floating spiked globes).

That's kind of an atypical circumstance though, since that development and testing was going on during an actual conflict and with the Masters operating at well below normal capacity. It may not be representative of their usual manufacturing process.

[ShadowLogan]

Well, there's a more important factor to consider... do they NEED to use them to churn out enormous amounts of war materiel? If one factory satellite was sufficient to meet the needs of nearly six million very large warships whose resource needs surely eclipse those of UEEF ships, do they really need to use the full capabilities of multiple factory satellites to sustain their meager (for the setting) force of just 500 small-ish ships?

Even though we're told Liberty Station is a factory satellite, they don't seem to actually use it for its original purpose... as we see it, it's shown as being more like a space dock and supply yard more than a fabrication facility.

Oh I agree the UEEF has no need for the full capabilities of the RFS. But if the RFS is in any operational state, they shouldn't need the help of the Kabarens or separate shipyards. That they do means the RFS unit is only capable of producing at maximum with such an impaired rate for the UEEF to need outside facilities (additional Factory Satellites, Kabarrens, separate shipyards, etc).

The heart of it, but not the whole of it if the description in AotSC is anything to go by.

I've looked at that description though. That is basically what is going on. Yes there where some additional modifications, but that could be primarily to support the mounted FAST Packs, with the rest in the avionics section that wouldn't alter the airframe.

That's kind of an atypical circumstance though, since that development and testing was going on during an actual conflict and with the Masters operating at well below normal capacity. It may not be representative of their usual manufacturing process.

To an extent that is true, but they are still going to need to do physical testing with the hardware. Simulations can only go so far.