Roadrunner power armor

[eliakon]

I feel that we need an example of what I am talking about here.
So lets meet Mega-Joe Average

Mega-Joe Average
Roll stats
IQ 10
ME 10
MA 10
PS 10
PP 10
PE 10
PB 10
Spd 10 8
Mega Power: Impervious to Disease
Achilles Heal: Slow and Ponderous

Super Powers
Sonic Speed x2
Adhesion
Unforgetability

This gives me the following movement speeds
When running I move at Mach 1 (my running speed)
When climbing on walls I move at Spd 4 (half of my Spd)

[Hawk258]

I feel that we need an example of what I am talking about here.
So lets meet Mega-Joe Average

Mega-Joe Average
Roll stats
IQ 10
ME 10
MA 10
PS 10
PP 10
PE 10
PB 10
Spd 10 8
Mega Power: Impervious to Disease
Achilles Heal: Slow and Ponderous

Super Powers
Sonic Speed x2
Adhesion
Unforgetability

This gives me the following movement speeds
When running I move at Mach 1 (my running speed)
When climbing on walls I move at Spd 4 (half of my Spd)

If the same power is rolled roll again, you can't have duplicate abilities.


Additionally which book(s) or book and pages are you using?

[eliakon]

I feel that we need an example of what I am talking about here.
So lets meet Mega-Joe Average

Mega-Joe Average
Roll stats
IQ 10
ME 10
MA 10
PS 10
PP 10
PE 10
PB 10
Spd 10 8
Mega Power: Impervious to Disease
Achilles Heal: Slow and Ponderous

Super Powers
Sonic Speed x2
Adhesion
Unforgetability

This gives me the following movement speeds
When running I move at Mach 1 (my running speed)
When climbing on walls I move at Spd 4 (half of my Spd)

If the same power is rolled roll again, you can't have duplicate abilities.


Additionally which book(s) or book and pages are you using?

Citations? Gladly
Heroes Unlimited 2nd edition.
Mega power is on page 181
Weakness is on page 182
Adhesion is on page 228
Sonic Speed is on pages 289-290

Gramercy Isle, page 190 has Runnaway, who has Sonic Speed twice allowing her to run at twice the speed of sound.

The unforgetable power was fluff to make him "joe average" but its in one of the powers unlimited books I believe.

[Hawk258]

Page 181 is control and create force field
Page 182 is darkness control and disruptive touch
Adhesion is not listed
Sonic speed is 189

I believe you and I are quoting 2 different books.

Do you mean "powers unlimited'?

[eliakon]

Page 181 is control and create force field
Page 182 is darkness control and disruptive touch
Adhesion is not listed
Sonic speed is 189

I believe you and I are quoting 2 different books.

Do you mean "powers unlimited'?

Ah, based on those page citations you appear to be using the old Heroes Unlimited 1st edition (revised). Which was replaced in in 1998 by the Second Edition. Which is where, for example, Mega Heroes come from, as well as the Adhesion power.

[Hawk258]

Page 181 is control and create force field
Page 182 is darkness control and disruptive touch
Adhesion is not listed
Sonic speed is 189

I believe you and I are quoting 2 different books.

Do you mean "powers unlimited'?

Ah, based on those page citations you appear to be using the old Heroes Unlimited 1st edition (revised). Which was replaced in in 1998 by the Second Edition. Which is where, for example, Mega Heroes come from, as well as the Adhesion power.

No I am using hu revised

[13eowulf]

Page 181 is control and create force field
Page 182 is darkness control and disruptive touch
Adhesion is not listed
Sonic speed is 189

I believe you and I are quoting 2 different books.

Do you mean "powers unlimited'?

Ah, based on those page citations you appear to be using the old Heroes Unlimited 1st edition (revised). Which was replaced in in 1998 by the Second Edition. Which is where, for example, Mega Heroes come from, as well as the Adhesion power.

No I am using hu revised

That is, quite literally, what Eli said.

You are using Heroes Unlimited Revised, which is the Revised First Edition. Your page references confirm this.

Everyone else is using Heroes Unlimited Second Edition or HU2 for reference and rules, which replaced your HU Revised, what, 20 years ago?

[Hawk258]

Page 181 is control and create force field
Page 182 is darkness control and disruptive touch
Adhesion is not listed
Sonic speed is 189

I believe you and I are quoting 2 different books.

Do you mean "powers unlimited'?

Ah, based on those page citations you appear to be using the old Heroes Unlimited 1st edition (revised). Which was replaced in in 1998 by the Second Edition. Which is where, for example, Mega Heroes come from, as well as the Adhesion power.

No I am using hu revised

That is, quite literally, what Eli said.

You are using Heroes Unlimited Revised, which is the Revised First Edition. Your page references confirm this.

Everyone else is using Heroes Unlimited Second Edition or HU2 for reference and rules, which replaced your HU Revised, what, 20 years ago?

I opened the wrong pdf

Looking now. Have most, all on my phone

[Blue_Lion]

Right, yet all my combat bonus, dodge, parry ect. Are also tied to the highest speed attribute.

So again do I list 2 listings for each of those?

The point is. Speed is a raw number. Fps, mph, ect.

You treat SS as an alter physical form ability, yet no stacking bonuses. You must use the highest stat.

As if you take both Extraordinary Speed and sonic speed you only use the highest bonus, and you do not apply the speed bonus to the lower speed attribute.

Either, they split, or you only have 1.if there were supposed to be 2 spd listings.

Additionally as all combat stats relating to sonic speed are treated as "automatic" ie I don't specify if I am using spd vs Ss power, then Then the sonic speed becomes the base Spd stat

Additionally when taking skills that increase speed they are NOT added to the speed if its treated as a separate stat.

In otherwords either you have 2 listings for "normal speed and SDC/APR/P,D,RwP, ext" or you have 1 stat.
In otherwords. K.I.S.S..

I am trying to treat sonic speed as written. Run Spd attribute "982" (aka 670mph) and STATIC bonuses

he claimed the SS was "activated" and NOT the Run speed attribute and the bonuses were static. spd 3d6 then "mach 1" when sonic speed activated. Yet all other stat changes static.
Getting the best for the gm and the worst for the player.

I said either treat it like an APS across the whole power or 982 is the static running speed and all bonuses static.

IE pick 1 it can't be both

And explaining to him that the Speed attribute is broken down by "type" running is the "standard" speed, there is flight speed, swim speed, and climb speed and each are specified as necessary.

He is treating speed as "all in one movement"

First, the name is spelled D-R-E-I-C-U-N-A-N. Second, no, you aren't treating it as written. It clearly does not grant you a SPD attribute bonus. It clearly grants you the ability to run at Mach 1, or approximately 700 mph (not 670, I have to note; if you are going to claim to treat a power as written, you would do well to note what is actually written). It does not alter your SPD stat. Colonel_Tetsuya and Eliakon have the right of it. Your SPD attribute is whatever your SPD attribute is as a result of initial attribute rolls and any skills or powers that increase the SPD attribute. With Sonic Speed, you can also run at Mach 1. The ability to run at Mach 1 does not change your SPD stat. This is important to keep in mind. A great example would be that if you are a human who has sonic speed, then gets juiced, you add 2d4x10 to your SPD attribute. Your top running speed is still Mach 1, because your top running speed is a function of the Sonic Speed power and not your SPD attribute (due to it being far above the top speed granted by your SPD attribute). However, your SPD attribute would come into play if you suddenly ran into someone who can suppress your super-powers.

We also know this because of the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel, which reduces SPD by half or to 8, whichever is lower, but also allows them to move faster than that when using that a power that grants superspeed, but moving at only "half the usual speed provided by it" and also halving all other bonuses. If Sonic Speed granted a bonus to the SPD attribute, then that stat would be reduced to 8. It doesn't grant a bonus to SPD, however. It grants that ability to run at Mach 1. Notice that all these flight and super speed powers grant a specific speed, not a bonus to the SPD stat. The same holds true for Extraordinary Speed. Contrast that with Extraordinary Physical Prowess, which gives a bonus of 3d4 to the SPD attribute. A Mega-Hero with the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel that also has Extraordinary Physical Prowess would, on average, end up with a SPD of 8 (or maybe less with really bad rolls), but the other bonuses would remain intact because it doesn't grant superspeed. It just grants a bonus to the SPD stat (and "increased speed" is not the same as superspeed).

PB stated it was mach 1 or about 670 MPH. (converstion book 1 revised pg 50.) PB has a tendency of listing two stats for things that do not always match up. So the power has a stated MPH value of about 670. So that is what is written, so they where right in refencing It you are wrong in claiming it is not what is written.


Your speed atribute is how fast you run, this power changes how fast you can run. There for logically this power changes what your speed stat is. As that is how you track movement incombat. Saying it is not your speed stat means you saying that in the movement rules the charter uses their unmodified spd and the power does not allow them to move that fast in combat.

[Hawk258]

In my opinion the Achilles heel is a "specific" exception as a non-mega hero doesn't contend with that. As some of these Achilles heels actually grant a benefit.

[eliakon]

Right, yet all my combat bonus, dodge, parry ect. Are also tied to the highest speed attribute.

So again do I list 2 listings for each of those?

The point is. Speed is a raw number. Fps, mph, ect.

You treat SS as an alter physical form ability, yet no stacking bonuses. You must use the highest stat.

As if you take both Extraordinary Speed and sonic speed you only use the highest bonus, and you do not apply the speed bonus to the lower speed attribute.

Either, they split, or you only have 1.if there were supposed to be 2 spd listings.

Additionally as all combat stats relating to sonic speed are treated as "automatic" ie I don't specify if I am using spd vs Ss power, then Then the sonic speed becomes the base Spd stat

Additionally when taking skills that increase speed they are NOT added to the speed if its treated as a separate stat.

In otherwords either you have 2 listings for "normal speed and SDC/APR/P,D,RwP, ext" or you have 1 stat.
In otherwords. K.I.S.S..

I am trying to treat sonic speed as written. Run Spd attribute "982" (aka 670mph) and STATIC bonuses

he claimed the SS was "activated" and NOT the Run speed attribute and the bonuses were static. spd 3d6 then "mach 1" when sonic speed activated. Yet all other stat changes static.
Getting the best for the gm and the worst for the player.

I said either treat it like an APS across the whole power or 982 is the static running speed and all bonuses static.

IE pick 1 it can't be both

And explaining to him that the Speed attribute is broken down by "type" running is the "standard" speed, there is flight speed, swim speed, and climb speed and each are specified as necessary.

He is treating speed as "all in one movement"

First, the name is spelled D-R-E-I-C-U-N-A-N. Second, no, you aren't treating it as written. It clearly does not grant you a SPD attribute bonus. It clearly grants you the ability to run at Mach 1, or approximately 700 mph (not 670, I have to note; if you are going to claim to treat a power as written, you would do well to note what is actually written). It does not alter your SPD stat. Colonel_Tetsuya and Eliakon have the right of it. Your SPD attribute is whatever your SPD attribute is as a result of initial attribute rolls and any skills or powers that increase the SPD attribute. With Sonic Speed, you can also run at Mach 1. The ability to run at Mach 1 does not change your SPD stat. This is important to keep in mind. A great example would be that if you are a human who has sonic speed, then gets juiced, you add 2d4x10 to your SPD attribute. Your top running speed is still Mach 1, because your top running speed is a function of the Sonic Speed power and not your SPD attribute (due to it being far above the top speed granted by your SPD attribute). However, your SPD attribute would come into play if you suddenly ran into someone who can suppress your super-powers.

We also know this because of the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel, which reduces SPD by half or to 8, whichever is lower, but also allows them to move faster than that when using that a power that grants superspeed, but moving at only "half the usual speed provided by it" and also halving all other bonuses. If Sonic Speed granted a bonus to the SPD attribute, then that stat would be reduced to 8. It doesn't grant a bonus to SPD, however. It grants that ability to run at Mach 1. Notice that all these flight and super speed powers grant a specific speed, not a bonus to the SPD stat. The same holds true for Extraordinary Speed. Contrast that with Extraordinary Physical Prowess, which gives a bonus of 3d4 to the SPD attribute. A Mega-Hero with the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel that also has Extraordinary Physical Prowess would, on average, end up with a SPD of 8 (or maybe less with really bad rolls), but the other bonuses would remain intact because it doesn't grant superspeed. It just grants a bonus to the SPD stat (and "increased speed" is not the same as superspeed).

PB stated it was mach 1 or about 670 MPH. (converstion book 1 revised pg 50.) PB has a tendency of listing two stats for things that do not always match up. So the power has a stated MPH value of about 670. So that is what is written, so they where right in refencing It you are wrong in claiming it is not what is written.


Your speed atribute is how fast you run, this power changes how fast you can run. There for logically this power changes what your speed stat is. As that is how you track movement incombat. Saying it is not your speed stat means you saying that in the movement rules the charter uses their unmodified spd and the power does not allow them to move that fast in combat.

Again, no
It does not change what your speed stat is, because it does not say it does that.
This is further hammered in because you can still run at Mach 1 and have a Spd of 8. A single black swan demonstrates that the premise is false.
And since I can demonstrate that the rules have a person with a Spd of 8, who can run at Mach 1, then the rules are pretty clear that just because you can run fast, you don't get to change your stats.
If you want to rewrite your stats you need something that says you can edit that part of your character sheet.
"Just because I think I should be allowed to change stats on character sheets" isn't rules justification. Since no one can point to any rule, anywhere, that says that you are allowed to do this, while I can point to a rule that says the opposite I would suspect that my stance is a wee bit stronger here.

And again, this is rather important because your Spd stat will affect all movement, but Sonic Speed only affects running. Which, yes I know that is the normal main use of the stat, but that is not its only function.
So again, replacing a general stat with a value that only applies to a specialized subset of that stat and not the stat as a whole is, logically, a non-starter as well.

Literally, all I am hearing in support of this is "Well, if we run this equation backwards, then we would get a really high Spd stat, and we want that high Spd stat so we can then use it instead of our actual RAW rolled speed so that we can then abuse other rules"
That sounds dubious to me, and when the only justification for rules lawyering is "Well if we run the equations backwards it works" it is especially dubious. More so since there is nothing in the books about being allowed to do that in the first place!

If I am hammering this point a bit it is because there is already a rule on this, in print, in an official sourcebook. And that Rule tells me that Spd and Super Movement are different. Thus, I am going to need a LOT of evidence to be convinced that the rule is wrong...
...and so far the only evidence anyone has presented is "well if we run the math backwards it works"


So TL:DR
Does anyone, have any evidence at all to contradict the rules printed on page 184 of the HU2 core book?
Because "I want it to" and "We can do this non-canon thing with running the math backwards" doesn't really contradict a published rule.

[eliakon]

In my opinion the Achilles heel is a "specific" exception as a non-mega hero doesn't contend with that.

That's not relevant.
The rules result in a person that can *both* run at the speed of sound and that has a Spd stat of 8.
That clearly demonstrates that your Spd stat is not found by reverse engineering your running speed, and is, in fact, generated... the way the rules tell us that it is generated, and not any other way.

There are published rules on how to roll up your attributes
There are published rules on how to change your attributes
There are published rules that tell us that we can move at speeds different than our stat says if conditions arise.

I am not seeing any rule that says we can generate an attribute via reverse engineering. If anyone, anywhere can cite such a rule I will be happy to entertain it here in the discussion though.

It really is that simple folks.
The Rules As Written are pretty open and shut about this. Yes, there are a lot of things in the system that are vague and wiggly... but how you generate stats, and how you change them? That's not one of them.

[Hawk258]

Right, yet all my combat bonus, dodge, parry ect. Are also tied to the highest speed attribute.

So again do I list 2 listings for each of those?

The point is. Speed is a raw number. Fps, mph, ect.

You treat SS as an alter physical form ability, yet no stacking bonuses. You must use the highest stat.

As if you take both Extraordinary Speed and sonic speed you only use the highest bonus, and you do not apply the speed bonus to the lower speed attribute.

Either, they split, or you only have 1.if there were supposed to be 2 spd listings.

Additionally as all combat stats relating to sonic speed are treated as "automatic" ie I don't specify if I am using spd vs Ss power, then Then the sonic speed becomes the base Spd stat

Additionally when taking skills that increase speed they are NOT added to the speed if its treated as a separate stat.

In otherwords either you have 2 listings for "normal speed and SDC/APR/P,D,RwP, ext" or you have 1 stat.
In otherwords. K.I.S.S..

I am trying to treat sonic speed as written. Run Spd attribute "982" (aka 670mph) and STATIC bonuses

he claimed the SS was "activated" and NOT the Run speed attribute and the bonuses were static. spd 3d6 then "mach 1" when sonic speed activated. Yet all other stat changes static.
Getting the best for the gm and the worst for the player.

I said either treat it like an APS across the whole power or 982 is the static running speed and all bonuses static.

IE pick 1 it can't be both

And explaining to him that the Speed attribute is broken down by "type" running is the "standard" speed, there is flight speed, swim speed, and climb speed and each are specified as necessary.

He is treating speed as "all in one movement"

First, the name is spelled D-R-E-I-C-U-N-A-N. Second, no, you aren't treating it as written. It clearly does not grant you a SPD attribute bonus. It clearly grants you the ability to run at Mach 1, or approximately 700 mph (not 670, I have to note; if you are going to claim to treat a power as written, you would do well to note what is actually written). It does not alter your SPD stat. Colonel_Tetsuya and Eliakon have the right of it. Your SPD attribute is whatever your SPD attribute is as a result of initial attribute rolls and any skills or powers that increase the SPD attribute. With Sonic Speed, you can also run at Mach 1. The ability to run at Mach 1 does not change your SPD stat. This is important to keep in mind. A great example would be that if you are a human who has sonic speed, then gets juiced, you add 2d4x10 to your SPD attribute. Your top running speed is still Mach 1, because your top running speed is a function of the Sonic Speed power and not your SPD attribute (due to it being far above the top speed granted by your SPD attribute). However, your SPD attribute would come into play if you suddenly ran into someone who can suppress your super-powers.

We also know this because of the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel, which reduces SPD by half or to 8, whichever is lower, but also allows them to move faster than that when using that a power that grants superspeed, but moving at only "half the usual speed provided by it" and also halving all other bonuses. If Sonic Speed granted a bonus to the SPD attribute, then that stat would be reduced to 8. It doesn't grant a bonus to SPD, however. It grants that ability to run at Mach 1. Notice that all these flight and super speed powers grant a specific speed, not a bonus to the SPD stat. The same holds true for Extraordinary Speed. Contrast that with Extraordinary Physical Prowess, which gives a bonus of 3d4 to the SPD attribute. A Mega-Hero with the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel that also has Extraordinary Physical Prowess would, on average, end up with a SPD of 8 (or maybe less with really bad rolls), but the other bonuses would remain intact because it doesn't grant superspeed. It just grants a bonus to the SPD stat (and "increased speed" is not the same as superspeed).

PB stated it was mach 1 or about 670 MPH. (converstion book 1 revised pg 50.) PB has a tendency of listing two stats for things that do not always match up. So the power has a stated MPH value of about 670. So that is what is written, so they where right in refencing It you are wrong in claiming it is not what is written.


Your speed atribute is how fast you run, this power changes how fast you can run. There for logically this power changes what your speed stat is. As that is how you track movement incombat. Saying it is not your speed stat means you saying that in the movement rules the charter uses their unmodified spd and the power does not allow them to move that fast in combat.

Again, no
It does not change what your speed stat is, because it does not say it does that.
This is further hammered in because you can still run at Mach 1 and have a Spd of 8. A single black swan demonstrates that the premise is false.
And since I can demonstrate that the rules have a person with a Spd of 8, who can run at Mach 1, then the rules are pretty clear that just because you can run fast, you don't get to change your stats.
If you want to rewrite your stats you need something that says you can edit that part of your character sheet.
"Just because I think I should be allowed to change stats on character sheets" isn't rules justification. Since no one can point to any rule, anywhere, that says that you are allowed to do this, while I can point to a rule that says the opposite I would suspect that my stance is a wee bit stronger here.

And again, this is rather important because your Spd stat will affect all movement, but Sonic Speed only affects running. Which, yes I know that is the normal main use of the stat, but that is not its only function.
So again, replacing a general stat with a value that only applies to a specialized subset of that stat and not the stat as a whole is, logically, a non-starter as well.

Literally, all I am hearing in support of this is "Well, if we run this equation backwards, then we would get a really high Spd stat, and we want that high Spd stat so we can then use it instead of our actual RAW rolled speed so that we can then abuse other rules"
That sounds dubious to me, and when the only justification for rules lawyering is "Well if we run the equations backwards it works" it is especially dubious. More so since there is nothing in the books about being allowed to do that in the first place!

If I am hammering this point a bit it is because there is already a rule on this, in print, in an official sourcebook. And that Rule tells me that Spd and Super Movement are different. Thus, I am going to need a LOT of evidence to be convinced that the rule is wrong...
...and so far the only evidence anyone has presented is "well if we run the math backwards it works"


So TL:DR
Does anyone, have any evidence at all to contradict the rules printed on page 184 of the HU2 core book?
Because "I want it to" and "We can do this non-canon thing with running the math backwards" doesn't really contradict a published rule.

In regards to the megahero it is a specific Achilles heel.
And Achilles heels only apply to "megaheroes"

That's like saying because a transfer intelligence into a robot can have psychic abilities then a full conversation borg can.

[eliakon]

I am trying to treat sonic speed as written. Run Spd attribute "982" (aka 670mph) and STATIC bonuses

he claimed the SS was "activated" and NOT the Run speed attribute and the bonuses were static. spd 3d6 then "mach 1" when sonic speed activated. Yet all other stat changes static.
Getting the best for the gm and the worst for the player.

I said either treat it like an APS across the whole power or 982 is the static running speed and all bonuses static.

IE pick 1 it can't be both

And explaining to him that the Speed attribute is broken down by "type" running is the "standard" speed, there is flight speed, swim speed, and climb speed and each are specified as necessary.

He is treating speed as "all in one movement"

First, the name is spelled D-R-E-I-C-U-N-A-N. Second, no, you aren't treating it as written. It clearly does not grant you a SPD attribute bonus. It clearly grants you the ability to run at Mach 1, or approximately 700 mph (not 670, I have to note; if you are going to claim to treat a power as written, you would do well to note what is actually written). It does not alter your SPD stat. Colonel_Tetsuya and Eliakon have the right of it. Your SPD attribute is whatever your SPD attribute is as a result of initial attribute rolls and any skills or powers that increase the SPD attribute. With Sonic Speed, you can also run at Mach 1. The ability to run at Mach 1 does not change your SPD stat. This is important to keep in mind. A great example would be that if you are a human who has sonic speed, then gets juiced, you add 2d4x10 to your SPD attribute. Your top running speed is still Mach 1, because your top running speed is a function of the Sonic Speed power and not your SPD attribute (due to it being far above the top speed granted by your SPD attribute). However, your SPD attribute would come into play if you suddenly ran into someone who can suppress your super-powers.

We also know this because of the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel, which reduces SPD by half or to 8, whichever is lower, but also allows them to move faster than that when using that a power that grants superspeed, but moving at only "half the usual speed provided by it" and also halving all other bonuses. If Sonic Speed granted a bonus to the SPD attribute, then that stat would be reduced to 8. It doesn't grant a bonus to SPD, however. It grants that ability to run at Mach 1. Notice that all these flight and super speed powers grant a specific speed, not a bonus to the SPD stat. The same holds true for Extraordinary Speed. Contrast that with Extraordinary Physical Prowess, which gives a bonus of 3d4 to the SPD attribute. A Mega-Hero with the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel that also has Extraordinary Physical Prowess would, on average, end up with a SPD of 8 (or maybe less with really bad rolls), but the other bonuses would remain intact because it doesn't grant superspeed. It just grants a bonus to the SPD stat (and "increased speed" is not the same as superspeed).

PB stated it was mach 1 or about 670 MPH. (converstion book 1 revised pg 50.) PB has a tendency of listing two stats for things that do not always match up. So the power has a stated MPH value of about 670. So that is what is written, so they where right in refencing It you are wrong in claiming it is not what is written.


Your speed atribute is how fast you run, this power changes how fast you can run. There for logically this power changes what your speed stat is. As that is how you track movement incombat. Saying it is not your speed stat means you saying that in the movement rules the charter uses their unmodified spd and the power does not allow them to move that fast in combat.

Again, no
It does not change what your speed stat is, because it does not say it does that.
This is further hammered in because you can still run at Mach 1 and have a Spd of 8. A single black swan demonstrates that the premise is false.
And since I can demonstrate that the rules have a person with a Spd of 8, who can run at Mach 1, then the rules are pretty clear that just because you can run fast, you don't get to change your stats.
If you want to rewrite your stats you need something that says you can edit that part of your character sheet.
"Just because I think I should be allowed to change stats on character sheets" isn't rules justification. Since no one can point to any rule, anywhere, that says that you are allowed to do this, while I can point to a rule that says the opposite I would suspect that my stance is a wee bit stronger here.

And again, this is rather important because your Spd stat will affect all movement, but Sonic Speed only affects running. Which, yes I know that is the normal main use of the stat, but that is not its only function.
So again, replacing a general stat with a value that only applies to a specialized subset of that stat and not the stat as a whole is, logically, a non-starter as well.

Literally, all I am hearing in support of this is "Well, if we run this equation backwards, then we would get a really high Spd stat, and we want that high Spd stat so we can then use it instead of our actual RAW rolled speed so that we can then abuse other rules"
That sounds dubious to me, and when the only justification for rules lawyering is "Well if we run the equations backwards it works" it is especially dubious. More so since there is nothing in the books about being allowed to do that in the first place!

If I am hammering this point a bit it is because there is already a rule on this, in print, in an official sourcebook. And that Rule tells me that Spd and Super Movement are different. Thus, I am going to need a LOT of evidence to be convinced that the rule is wrong...
...and so far the only evidence anyone has presented is "well if we run the math backwards it works"


So TL:DR
Does anyone, have any evidence at all to contradict the rules printed on page 184 of the HU2 core book?
Because "I want it to" and "We can do this non-canon thing with running the math backwards" doesn't really contradict a published rule.

In regards to the megahero it is a specific Achilles heel.
And Achilles heels only apply to "megaheroes"

And your point is?
No, seriously your point?
Your claim is that you can and do (with no rules citation mind you) replace your Spd stat with your super powers running speed.
Even though
1) the power doesn't say to do this
2) the rules on stats are pretty specific on how they are generated and changed
3) there is a pretty specific example here that demonstrates that this is factually not the case
4) You are also ignoring that by doing this you are, basically cheating, as you are saying that your character can use their power that only lets them run mind you, to do all the other things that the full Spd stat allows a person to do.

So... what, exactly, is the support for the claim that this is allowed?
Its not a hard question, just one simple question.
Where is the text that says you can run the Spd equation backwards? I mean, I use my PE to calculate my HP. if I get more HP do I get to raise my PE? Of course not you say, that's different... to which I say no its not. Its the exact same thing... trying to run a one way equation backwards.
That's all I am asking. I want a citation that says that this is a legal part of the game, and is in the rules. That's all.

I get that people want this to be true. I suspect that it is so that people can claim that speed powers are immune to Negate Super Powers, and that they can do stuff like climb walls at the speed of sound, or run power armors at Mach 3, and all sorts of other "creative" exploits. But wanting it to be true and actually is true are different.

[Hawk258]

Show me an example beyond the megahero where run speed attribute has been split. Or any biological based speed trait

The megahero is arguably in the top 3 for "most powerful character group in all of rifts.

So yes there are going to be specific vulnerabilities and issues that apply only to a megahero.

Additionally the exception you list is much newer than the power in debate. Sonic speed has remained unchanged in all cases.

The Achilles heel mechanics are tailored specifically for the megahero. And slow and ponderous is soly a megahero trait.

[dreicunan]

Show me an example beyond the megahero where run speed attribute has been split. Or any biological based speed trait

The megahero is arguably in the top 3 for "most powerful character group in all of rifts.

So yes there are going to be specific vulnerabilities and issues that apply only to a megahero.

Additionally the exception you list is much newer than the power in debate. Sonic speed has remained unchanged in all cases.

The Achilles heel mechanics are tailored specifically for the megahero. And slow and ponderous is soly a megahero trait.

This is starting to get into "What have the Romans ever done for us?" territory.

Also, a cursory glance at the Sonic Speed power in HU revised and HU2 will deomstrate that the power has changed (different MPH, different number of attacks gained and when, different parry bonus, now grants an automatic dodge, stop on a dime, swimming speed if swim skill is known). That said, you were wrong in the revised era as well. The power never granted you a bonus to the SPD stat.

Oh, wait, look at that! Super Speed also improves your swim speed if you know the skill! Does that mean that Sonic Speed increases your PS to that needed to let you swim at 300mph?

Of course it doesn't, just at it doesn't set your SPD at that needed to let you run at 700mph.

[Hawk258]

And no, I won't be able to "climb" at the speed of sound. As stated climb speed is 0 unless your character has the skill. It is actions per round/melee times 20.

My swim speed is 3 times my physical strength

And you are trying to place a mechanism that is reserved for a megahero that gets slow and ponderous. In spite of the fact in terms of powers it is the only one that let's you overcome your vulnerability with specific abilities.

[Hawk258]

Show me an example beyond the megahero where run speed attribute has been split. Or any biological based speed trait

The megahero is arguably in the top 3 for "most powerful character group in all of rifts.

So yes there are going to be specific vulnerabilities and issues that apply only to a megahero.

Additionally the exception you list is much newer than the power in debate. Sonic speed has remained unchanged in all cases.

The Achilles heel mechanics are tailored specifically for the megahero. And slow and ponderous is soly a megahero trait.

This is starting to get into "What have the Romans ever done for us?" territory.

Also, a cursory glance at the Sonic Speed power in HU revised and HU2 will deomstrate that the power has changed (different MPH, different number of attacks gained and when, different parry bonus, now grants an automatic dodge, stop on a dime, swimming speed if swim skill is known). That said, you were wrong in the revised era as well. The power never granted you a bonus to the SPD stat.

Oh, wait, look at that! Super Speed also improves your swim speed if you know the skill! Does that mean that Sonic Speed increases your PS to that needed to let you swim at 300mph?


Okay, so in this case I was mistaken. Based on I opened the wrong pdf in 30 with "unlimited...."

[Hawk258]

Okay so it is specifically listed. So if I have the swim skill (prerequisite) I "can" swim at 300 mph. However if I don't it is 0. That still remains true.

As for the change in mph is that 670 mph isn't the speed of sound, it's about 90 mph short. However 700 isn't the speed of sound either.

Additionally the "auto dodge" only applies to hth and melee combat. Not projectiles.

It states running speed. And as demonstrated your "reason" is megahero with slow and ponderous achillies heel.

[Hawk258]

The description itself still hasn't changed "ability to run"

In fact go to runnaway page 191 read the 8th stat

Attributes: I.Q.: 7, M.E.: 9, M.A.: 1 2, P.S.: 11, P.P.: 1 8,
P.E.: 1 8, P.B.: 1 2, Spd: Mach 2.


So I was wrong about stacking

[Hawk258]

I wonder what the roadrunner could do for a speedster that hobbles at a speed of 8...

[dreicunan]

Hawk, face it, you would never argue that Sonic Speed raises the PS of someone with the swim skill, because we all know that would be ridiculously ludicrous to argue. In light of that, it has been established beyond any shadow of a doubt that a super power allowing you to move at a specific speed for a certain kind of movement does not alter the underlying stat that would normally be used to determine the rate at which you can move in that way. Ergo, Extraordinary Speed and Sonic Speed do not alter the SPD stat.

[Hawk258]

I didn't. Palladium treats run speed as 1 stat, swim speed as 1 stat, and flying as 1 stat. That is all I am claiming. How that is formulated is not my concern

Page 191 of Gramercy island states that is true

The instance and exception you both are trying to cite is a singular specificity designed mechanism and specifically expressed exception reserved for a very specific class of characters

When it is stated that a physical trait, skill, or permanent augmentation, or mechanism, effects a speed or other stat you don't argue with the book.

[Hawk258]

Now I admit I have been playing a superhuman character in rifts, based of the revised rules so long that I had not bothered to read the HU2 updates.

And have been playing a character that is actually much weaker than what is in the HU2 rules. That character shall be appropriately updated.

[eliakon]

The problem still stands.
And all the ignoring it in the world won't solve it
You have still not cited support for your claim that you are allowed to run the calculations backwards to reverse engineer attributes from movement rates.
This is a HUGE issue since we have demonstrated, twice, when this does not happen. Both times with this exact power.
So stop beating around the bush and answer the question. Where are you getting your support for the claim that you can reverse engineer attributes from movement rates?

[Hawk258]

Explain "calculate backwards"?

[The Beast]

As loath as I am to do this, I'd like to point out that every NPC example of super speedsters I could find have their Spd stat listed as their upper limit of movement and not "'X' when moving around normally, and 'Y' when using their power." Furthermore, by RAW in both HU2 and RUE the Spd stat "is how fast the character can run (or fly)."

[eliakon]

As loath as I am to do this, I'd like to point out that every NPC example of super speedsters I could find have their Spd stat listed as their upper limit of movement and not "'X' when moving around normally, and 'Y' when using their power." Furthermore, by RAW in both HU2 and RUE the Spd stat "is how fast the character can run (or fly)."

Not a good example.
They also only show their powered up stats for people that transform.
So we already know that the NPC write ups use short hand, and do not include base stats.
In which case, the argument that in this one singular case they are actually doing just that, when they do just the opposite in every other regard... is, well it just doesn't hold up.

And yes, as has been said. The stat says "how fast the character can run (or fly)."
But there are a host of problems
1) it is a stat. The rules clearly spell out the rules around stats and how they can be changed.
2) there is canon evidence that you can have a Spd stat that is different than your move as shown by the Mega-Hero
3) If you have Sonic Speed and Winged Flight... reverse engineering your Spd is impossible as you get two numbers....for one stat
4) Reverse engineering statistics from movement fails because swim speed is based on strength. Therefore we would have to increase your PS when you increase your swim speed
5) like #4, if we increase the primary stat every time we increase the derived one, you would need to increase the PE every time you get a Hit Point or PPE point....and all martial artists would have infinite PE and CHI as they would end up spiraling (they add CHI, which would add to their PE, which would add CHI, which would add PE which..)

ALL of this is made moot by the fact that the entire edifice of the entire argument is based on the claim that reverse engineering Attributes/Stats from the characteristics derived from that statistic is legal... of which the only support so far has been the claim that this is legal in the initial premise.
Which is pretty shaky ground considering that I just put forth five different points that demonstrate why the rules do not allow reverse engineering of Attributes.

[Hawk258]

As noted where does it state it is a toggle?

Where does it state "do not add to speed attribute"?

You are adding a mechanic that does not exist "normally"

You don't toggle supernatural strength do you?

[eliakon]

As noted where does it state it is a toggle?

I have no idea what you are talking about

Where does it state "do not add to speed attribute"?
You are adding a mechanic that does not exist "normally"

Incorrect wording.
Where does it say that you can add to the attribute.
Because the ability to change your attributes is one of those "all that is not allowed is forbidden" things. E.g. any method of changing stats that is not explicitly allowed by the rules is forbidden.
So, yet again,
Where in the rules are you finding the ability to change your attributes?
Because I am legitimately curious.

You don't toggle supernatural strength do you?

What are you talking about?
That is not at issue here, nor is it related to the topic. It has nothing to do with this in fact and appears to be nothing but an irrelevant aside that serves no purpose other than to muddy the waters and/or serve as a strawman.


You, once again, did not answer the question.
Nor did you refute the counter examples.
In fact... you did not seem to do anything other than, yet again, attempt to muddy the waters.

[The Beast]

As loath as I am to do this, I'd like to point out that every NPC example of super speedsters I could find have their Spd stat listed as their upper limit of movement and not "'X' when moving around normally, and 'Y' when using their power." Furthermore, by RAW in both HU2 and RUE the Spd stat "is how fast the character can run (or fly)."

Not a good example.
They also only show their powered up stats for people that transform.
So we already know that the NPC write ups use short hand, and do not include base stats.
In which case, the argument that in this one singular case they are actually doing just that, when they do just the opposite in every other regard... is, well it just doesn't hold up.

And yes, as has been said. The stat says "how fast the character can run (or fly)."
But there are a host of problems
1) it is a stat. The rules clearly spell out the rules around stats and how they can be changed.
2) there is canon evidence that you can have a Spd stat that is different than your move as shown by the Mega-Hero
3) If you have Sonic Speed and Winged Flight... reverse engineering your Spd is impossible as you get two numbers....for one stat
4) Reverse engineering statistics from movement fails because swim speed is based on strength. Therefore we would have to increase your PS when you increase your swim speed
5) like #4, if we increase the primary stat every time we increase the derived one, you would need to increase the PE every time you get a Hit Point or PPE point....and all martial artists would have infinite PE and CHI as they would end up spiraling (they add CHI, which would add to their PE, which would add CHI, which would add PE which..)

ALL of this is made moot by the fact that the entire edifice of the entire argument is based on the claim that reverse engineering Attributes/Stats from the characteristics derived from that statistic is legal... of which the only support so far has been the claim that this is legal in the initial premise.
Which is pretty shaky ground considering that I just put forth five different points that demonstrate why the rules do not allow reverse engineering of Attributes.

*** is this "reverse engineer" crap? You're not reverse engineering anything, you're replacing it.

IAW the RAW:

Speed (Spd) Indicates the rate of speed in which a character can (or fly).

Sonic Speed
The power to run at super sonic speeds. This means that the character can run at the speed of sound, Mach One, or approximately 700 mph."

[eliakon]

Explain "calculate backwards"?

Calculating forwards is the normal way things are derived.
You have X, and Y is derived from it via formula Z.
There for X via Z = Y
Doing it backwards is taking Y running Z in reverse and getting X

In this case, we have a Spd Attribute, that is used to calculate our running speed...
Running that in reverse is taking the running speed to calculate the Spd.

It is like, for example...
We know that swimming speed is PSx3=Swim.
Therefore if is Swim =500 MPH, then obviously PS = 734 right?

[eliakon]

As loath as I am to do this, I'd like to point out that every NPC example of super speedsters I could find have their Spd stat listed as their upper limit of movement and not "'X' when moving around normally, and 'Y' when using their power." Furthermore, by RAW in both HU2 and RUE the Spd stat "is how fast the character can run (or fly)."

Not a good example.
They also only show their powered up stats for people that transform.
So we already know that the NPC write ups use short hand, and do not include base stats.
In which case, the argument that in this one singular case they are actually doing just that, when they do just the opposite in every other regard... is, well it just doesn't hold up.

And yes, as has been said. The stat says "how fast the character can run (or fly)."
But there are a host of problems
1) it is a stat. The rules clearly spell out the rules around stats and how they can be changed.
2) there is canon evidence that you can have a Spd stat that is different than your move as shown by the Mega-Hero
3) If you have Sonic Speed and Winged Flight... reverse engineering your Spd is impossible as you get two numbers....for one stat
4) Reverse engineering statistics from movement fails because swim speed is based on strength. Therefore we would have to increase your PS when you increase your swim speed
5) like #4, if we increase the primary stat every time we increase the derived one, you would need to increase the PE every time you get a Hit Point or PPE point....and all martial artists would have infinite PE and CHI as they would end up spiraling (they add CHI, which would add to their PE, which would add CHI, which would add PE which..)

ALL of this is made moot by the fact that the entire edifice of the entire argument is based on the claim that reverse engineering Attributes/Stats from the characteristics derived from that statistic is legal... of which the only support so far has been the claim that this is legal in the initial premise.
Which is pretty shaky ground considering that I just put forth five different points that demonstrate why the rules do not allow reverse engineering of Attributes.

*** is this "reverse engineer" crap? You're not reverse engineering anything, you're replacing it.

IAW the RAW:

Speed (Spd) Indicates the rate of speed in which a character can (or fly).

Sonic Speed
The power to run at super sonic speeds. This means that the character can run at the speed of sound, Mach One, or approximately 700 mph."

Nope
Your reverse engineering it
That is because, sorry. We have already demonstrated, several times, that Spd =/= your actual running speed.
Seriously. We have.
Take Sonic Speed and Wingless Flight. Now, tell me what is your Spd Stat? I'll wait.
Make a Mega Hero, take Sonic Speed and Slow and Ponderous. Tell me your Spd Stat and how fast you run. I'll wait.

So, no. The Spd stat tells you how fast you run under normal conditions.

This is further demonstrated by the fun with the Swimming Skill and PS.

So yes, it is running things backwards.

[Hawk258]

Nope your speed of run is your speed of run

As I have demonstrated several times spd = run
Fly speed = fly
Climb speed = climb
Swim speed = swim speed

And is indicated as such. You do not have a "general movement speed"

And just like Strength you only get the highest 1.

If you have wings and sonic flight you have a winged character that flies at 700 mph

[eliakon]

Nope your speed of run is your speed of run

As I have demonstrated several times spd = run
Fly speed = fly
Climb speed = climb
Swim speed = swim speed

Yes you have.
But you only have One Spd stat
Many speeds... but one stat.
Which is why it can not be reverse engineered from the speeds themselves. Because those speeds are not based on the stat.

Your trying to get around the fact that the book clearly states that this is your running/flying speed. Two things.
It is even more important because Spd also is how your climbing speed is calculated.

You are taking a derived characteristic.
Changing that characteristic.
Then underiving it
And then claiming that it applies to all the other areas.
Sonic Speed does not let your fly at the speed of sound.
It does not let you climb a rope any faster either.
And yet, if it changes your Spd Attribute, it does these things.

This is because it is not changing the Attribute. It is changing the effects of that Attribute. In other words it is replacing the normal results of your attribute for running only.

[Hawk258]

Right you run x
You fly y
You swim z
You climb 1
You hover 2
You glide 3

And the SPD = run

If I have a character with sonic speed, winged flight, adhestion
run 700
Swim 300
Climb = actions per round x 20 feet
Fly = 160 mph

If I don't have legs then I "can't run" and will be noted as "slither"/fly/hover/swim

[The Beast]

Take Sonic Speed and Wingless Flight. Now, tell me what is your Spd Stat?

Spd = Mach 1 running, minimum of 200 mph flying (this one depends on the speedster's level).

Make a Mega Hero, take Sonic Speed and Slow and Ponderous. Tell me your Spd Stat and how fast you run. I'll wait.

This one's a bit tricky as several Palladium books list different speeds for Mach 1. However, using what it says for the power your Spd in this example is 350 mph.

I'm not sure why you seem to have such a problem with basic math.

This is further demonstrated by the fun with the Swimming Skill and PS.

Give me a few minutes as I'll have to go back and reread this as I've mostly tuned this thread out when Hawk got stuck on his "but this suit over here can go this fast" line of arguing.

[Hawk258]

Excuse me* sonic flight

[eliakon]

Right you run x
You fly y
You swim z
You climb 1
You hover 2
You glide 3

And the SPD = run

If I have a character with sonic speed, winged flight, adhestion
run 700
Swim 300
Climb = actions per round x 20 feet
Fly = 160 mph

Again, you are making a mistake here.
You are confusing the Attribute (Spd) with the derived value (movement)
Spd x 20 is the....
Note the formula that is used to derive the movement from the actual Attribute?
Note how it is one way?
Note how there is no discussion of "if you ever increase your running speed, reverse this formula and change your Attribute"?

This is because the Attribute does not cover abnormal situations...just the normal ones.

[Hawk258]

Speed = run
Flying = fly speed

Each "movement" is separate and indicated as specified

SPD is not general

And "sonic speed" is your run speed period.

A winged mutant with sonic flight flies 700 mph
But runs 3d6

[eliakon]

Take Sonic Speed and Wingless Flight. Now, tell me what is your Spd Stat?

Spd = Mach 1 running, minimum of 200 mph flying (this one depends on the speedster's level).

Problem
Spd is an Attribute.
That means it is a specific, singular number.
Attributes are not variables.
Try again.
I need your Attribute, not the derived variables.

Make a Mega Hero, take Sonic Speed and Slow and Ponderous. Tell me your Spd Stat and how fast you run. I'll wait.

This one's a bit tricky as several Palladium books list different speeds for Mach 1. However, using what it says for the power your Spd in this example is 350 mph.

I'm not sure why you seem to have such a problem with basic math.

Incorrect.
The book tells us flat out that your Spd Attribute is 8.
But that you can run at half the speed of sound.
So... how can I be doing both?

This is further demonstrated by the fun with the Swimming Skill and PS.

Give me a few minutes as I'll have to go back and reread this as I've mostly tuned this thread out when Hawk got stuck on his "but this suit over here can go this fast" line of arguing.

Swimming is PSx3.
Sonic Speed gives you 500mph swimming which gives you a PS of 700 and change.

The other problem is that changing your Spd to the Mach number is that it means you can do other things fast too...
like, climb a rope. Or walk. Or tipetoe across a ballance beam. Or do anything else besides run.
My personal favorite though is climbing a rope.

[Hawk258]

No climb speed is stated as it's own or actions x 20

[eliakon]

Speed = run
Flying = fly speed

Each "movement" is separate and indicated as specified

SPD is not general

And "sonic speed" is your run speed period.

A winged mutant with sonic flight flies 700 mph
But runs 3d6

RUE pg. 284 "Speed (Spd). Indicates the rate of speed at which a character can run and/or fly.
Note that the singular attribute covers two things?
One number?
You can't change it based on only half the result.
So again...
Sonic Speed + Wingless Flight = Black Swan

[eliakon]

No climb speed is stated as it's own or actions x 20

Actually several climb types and sources state "Spd * <Multiple>" with different multiples depending on the kind of climb.
But it doesn't matter, because as demonstrated... you cant change half of an attribute.

[Hawk258]

You gm?

Each "type" is stated and separate
The 8th stat abbreviated as Spd = run.

And unless noted otherwise is always treated as such

For general humanoid OCC
Swimming speed is Strength x 3 RUE Page 317
Flying speed has it's own stat HU2 any flying ability as do all "self propelled" flying beings
Running speed is the 8th attribute "speed" aka Spd RUE 281
Actions/attacks per round are determined by HTH skills.
Prowess is dexterity and grace. RUE PG 317
Climbing: number of actions per round x 20 ft RUE PG 316

Example of Ground, flying, Swimming individually listed speeds listing or specifically addressed. 
RUE 159 - 163
D-bees of north America pgs: 22, 32, 34,36, 48, 69, 75.
Lemuria swimming and running/slithering are always noted and specified. 
Climbing speed specified page 195 of D-bees of North America 
Sonic speed PG 191 Gramercy island

You are trying to say all movement is speed.
Each type of travel (running, swimming flying, climbing, ect) are each their own stat

[The Beast]

Take Sonic Speed and Wingless Flight. Now, tell me what is your Spd Stat?

Spd = Mach 1 running, minimum of 200 mph flying (this one depends on the speedster's level).

Problem
Spd is an Attribute.
That means it is a specific, singular number.
Attributes are not variables.
Try again.
I need your Attribute, not the derived variables.

Incorrect. as per page 16 of HU2 the Spd attribute is your running speed. With that superpower you are able to run at Mach 1. Ego your Spd attribute is Mach 1.

Make a Mega Hero, take Sonic Speed and Slow and Ponderous. Tell me your Spd Stat and how fast you run. I'll wait.

This one's a bit tricky as several Palladium books list different speeds for Mach 1. However, using what it says for the power your Spd in this example is 350 mph.

Incorrect.
The book tells us flat out that your Spd Attribute is 8.
But that you can run at half the speed of sound.
So... how can I be doing both?

Ah, you got me. I didn't fully reread the weakness before answering. Doesn't change the fact that page 16 of HU2 states your Spd attribute is your running speed.

EDIT: fixed quotations.

[Hawk258]

Speed = run
Flying = fly speed

Each "movement" is separate and indicated as specified

SPD is not general

And "sonic speed" is your run speed period.

A winged mutant with sonic flight flies 700 mph
But runs 3d6

RUE pg. 284 "Speed (Spd). Indicates the rate of speed at which a character can run and/or fly.
Note that the singular attribute covers two things?
One number?
You can't change it based on only half the result.
So again...
Sonic Speed + Wingless Flight = Black Swan

When there is a difference they are indicated.

There are characters that can fly as fast as they run and is specified

If a mode of movement is not part of the equation it is not listed and stated what type of travel is used

If they have multiple modes of trave with different speeds they are each noted.

If a natural climb ability is listed it is specifically noted

And if a boost is in play like leylines they are noted.

When there is a vulnerability it is noted. Like a vulnerability, quirk, ect

[eliakon]

Speed = run
Flying = fly speed

Each "movement" is separate and indicated as specified

SPD is not general

And "sonic speed" is your run speed period.

A winged mutant with sonic flight flies 700 mph
But runs 3d6

RUE pg. 284 "Speed (Spd). Indicates the rate of speed at which a character can run and/or fly.
Note that the singular attribute covers two things?
One number?
You can't change it based on only half the result.
So again...
Sonic Speed + Wingless Flight = Black Swan

When there is a difference they are indicated.

There are characters that can fly as fast as they run and is specified

If a mode of movement is not part of the equation it is not listed and stated what type of travel is used

If they have multiple modes of trave with different speeds they are each noted.

If a natural climb ability is listed it is specifically noted

And if a boost is in play like leylines they are noted.

Yes.
But those are your movement rates.
They are not your Spd Attribute.
You keep confusing the two.
They are not the same thing.
You can not simply replace the one with the other.
This is why there is one attribute, and many derived characteristics.

[Hawk258]

Speed = run
Flying = fly speed

Each "movement" is separate and indicated as specified

SPD is not general

And "sonic speed" is your run speed period.

A winged mutant with sonic flight flies 700 mph
But runs 3d6

RUE pg. 284 "Speed (Spd). Indicates the rate of speed at which a character can run and/or fly.
Note that the singular attribute covers two things?
One number?
You can't change it based on only half the result.
So again...
Sonic Speed + Wingless Flight = Black Swan

When there is a difference they are indicated.

There are characters that can fly as fast as they run and is specified

If a mode of movement is not part of the equation it is not listed and stated what type of travel is used

If they have multiple modes of trave with different speeds they are each noted.

If a natural climb ability is listed it is specifically noted

And if a boost is in play like leylines they are noted.

Yes.
But those are your movement rates.
They are not your Spd Attribute.
You keep confusing the two.
They are not the same thing.
You can not simply replace the one with the other.
This is why there is one attribute, and many derived characteristics.

For a bipedal being: spd = run
It doesn't give you fly
It is NOT your swim speed
It is not your climb speed
It is not your slither speed
It is not your attack speed

Unless stated otherwise your SPD is your run speed.

If you have other abilities each are noted accordingly

[eliakon]

Take Sonic Speed and Wingless Flight. Now, tell me what is your Spd Stat?

Spd = Mach 1 running, minimum of 200 mph flying (this one depends on the speedster's level).

Problem
Spd is an Attribute.
That means it is a specific, singular number.
Attributes are not variables.
Try again.
I need your Attribute, not the derived variables.

Incorrect. as per page 16 of HU2 the Spd attribute is your running speed. With that superpower you are able to run at Mach 1. Ego your Spd attribute is Mach 1.

Make a Mega Hero, take Sonic Speed and Slow and Ponderous. Tell me your Spd Stat and how fast you run. I'll wait.

This one's a bit tricky as several Palladium books list different speeds for Mach 1. However, using what it says for the power your Spd in this example is 350 mph.

Incorrect.
The book tells us flat out that your Spd Attribute is 8.
But that you can run at half the speed of sound.
So... how can I be doing both?

Ah, you got me. I didn't fully reread the weakness before answering. Doesn't change the fact that page 16 of HU2 states your Spd attribute is your running speed.

EDIT: fixed quotations.

*sigh*
It does.
Spd is used to find your running speed, in normal circumstances.
These are not normal circumstances.
Because your Spd Attribute can not be both an 8 AND it can not also be that your Spd Attribute is "one half the speed of sound"
So tell me.
Which seems more likely?
That the Spd Attribute is determined the way the book tells us which is "roll these dice, and only modify as you are told"
or
That the Spd Attribute is a quantum number that can have three or four different, mutally exculsive values, all at the same time, because it is derived from your movement speed.