Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Ley Line walkers, Juicers, Coalition Troops, Samas, Tolkeen, & The Federation Of Magic. Come together here to discuss all things Rifts®.

Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones

jburkett
Wanderer
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:44 pm

Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by jburkett »

Hello, I am just hoping for some clarification. In melee combat, a roll of 1-4 is considered a miss. Is this understood to be a "natural" 1-4 is always a miss (don't consider bonuses). Considering bonuses, it would seem that even most 1st level characters would only miss in melee combat with a natural roll of "1". Thanks!
guardiandashi
Hero
Posts: 1437
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:21 am

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by guardiandashi »

I look at it as a modified roll of X is a miss, because I don't think a constant 20%+ chance of missing no matter what is very realistic.
User avatar
Warshield73
Megaversal® Ambassador
Posts: 5111
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
Comment: "I will not be silenced. I will not submit. I will find the truth and shout it to the world. "
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by Warshield73 »

jburkett wrote:Hello, I am just hoping for some clarification. In melee combat, a roll of 1-4 is considered a miss. Is this understood to be a "natural" 1-4 is always a miss (don't consider bonuses). Considering bonuses, it would seem that even most 1st level characters would only miss in melee combat with a natural roll of "1". Thanks!


It is supposed to be natural roll of 1-4 always fails. If you do it as a modified roll it really just takes characters like Juicers and turns them into unstoppable killing machines. Natural failure is also a really necessary counterpoint to the critical hit rule for natural 19-20.
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7404
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

jburkett wrote:Hello, I am just hoping for some clarification. In melee combat, a roll of 1-4 is considered a miss. Is this understood to be a "natural" 1-4 is always a miss (don't consider bonuses). Considering bonuses, it would seem that even most 1st level characters would only miss in melee combat with a natural roll of "1". Thanks!

Rifts Ultimate Edition pg346 wrote:[b]Miss: A roll of 1-4 (after bonuses) is always a miss.
A roll of one always misses regardless of bonuses.

Emphasis in original text.

This really isn't contradicted by RUE pg339-40 when discussing the Combat Rules Step 2: Attack Rolls to Strike as it mentions that it is after bonuses. The only new thing is the result of a roll of 1.

This was always the case even in RMB, except for a Natural 1 part that was added into RUE in the glossary section (the term isn't in RMB).

And No, most 1st level characters wouldn't miss only on a natural 1, at least not unless they have some high PP bonus given WP melee weapons are typically +1 at level 1 (if even that), and HTH styles don't add strike until later levels.
User avatar
Warshield73
Megaversal® Ambassador
Posts: 5111
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
Comment: "I will not be silenced. I will not submit. I will find the truth and shout it to the world. "
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by Warshield73 »

ShadowLogan wrote:
jburkett wrote:Hello, I am just hoping for some clarification. In melee combat, a roll of 1-4 is considered a miss. Is this understood to be a "natural" 1-4 is always a miss (don't consider bonuses). Considering bonuses, it would seem that even most 1st level characters would only miss in melee combat with a natural roll of "1". Thanks!

Rifts Ultimate Edition pg346 wrote:[b]Miss: A roll of 1-4 (after bonuses) is always a miss.
A roll of one always misses regardless of bonuses.

Emphasis in original text.

This really isn't contradicted by RUE pg339-40 when discussing the Combat Rules Step 2: Attack Rolls to Strike as it mentions that it is after bonuses. The only new thing is the result of a roll of 1.

This was always the case even in RMB, except for a Natural 1 part that was added into RUE in the glossary section (the term isn't in RMB).

And No, most 1st level characters wouldn't miss only on a natural 1, at least not unless they have some high PP bonus given WP melee weapons are typically +1 at level 1 (if even that), and HTH styles don't add strike until later levels.

Yeah, Shadow is correct on this one. After I posted I started looking through the book and found the actual rule. I don't use this rule in my house rules combat system so I guess I just forgot what it is.

Thanks for the correction Shadow.
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2
jburkett
Wanderer
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:44 pm

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by jburkett »

ShadowLogan wrote:
jburkett wrote:Hello, I am just hoping for some clarification. In melee combat, a roll of 1-4 is considered a miss. Is this understood to be a "natural" 1-4 is always a miss (don't consider bonuses). Considering bonuses, it would seem that even most 1st level characters would only miss in melee combat with a natural roll of "1". Thanks!

Rifts Ultimate Edition pg346 wrote:[b]Miss: A roll of 1-4 (after bonuses) is always a miss.
A roll of one always misses regardless of bonuses.

Emphasis in original text.

This really isn't contradicted by RUE pg339-40 when discussing the Combat Rules Step 2: Attack Rolls to Strike as it mentions that it is after bonuses. The only new thing is the result of a roll of 1.

This was always the case even in RMB, except for a Natural 1 part that was added into RUE in the glossary section (the term isn't in RMB).

And No, most 1st level characters wouldn't miss only on a natural 1, at least not unless they have some high PP bonus given WP melee weapons are typically +1 at level 1 (if even that), and HTH styles don't add strike until later levels.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. I assume then that bonuses could also be applied in Ranged Combat to achieve the minimum number to Strike ("8" according to RUE). I think that when I mentioned 1st level characters I was already jumping ahead to this Ranged Combat question. A first level character, taking an Aimed Shot (+3 to Strike) with a W.P. Laser Pistol (+1 to Strike at Level 1) could hit a target with a natural roll of "4" (4+3+1 = 8 ). Does that math add up for everyone? Thanks again!
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by eliakon »

The rule is basically one that bonuses are always added on afterwards.
THAT said, as you mention it can result in some pretty bad situations when certain builds are used as it can allow for characters that always hit and never miss (unless the optional n1 rule is used).

I have played in games that do it both ways (modified 4/8+ and natural) and they both work, they just have slightly different 'feels' to them. The slightly higher miss rate comes out in the wash because everyone PC and NPC alike has the same increased miss rate. The reduction in hits is offset by the ability to actually miss. This is especially important if your GM implements a n1 critical miss effect...
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27955
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

If it doesn’t SAY “Natural,” then it’s not.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
Proseksword
Adventurer
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:20 pm
Location: Chi-Town, IL
Contact:

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by Proseksword »

If your target isn't either parrying or simultaneously attacking, they're doing it wrong!
shadrak
Champion
Posts: 1831
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 8:11 pm
Location: Bloomington, IL

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by shadrak »

This particular rule (1-4 AFTER bonuses) doesn't really work well based on the way that Palladium writes the rules...

What the 1-4 rule ACTUALLY represents is:

1. Natural 1 is always a miss. Natural 20 is always a hit (and I believe a critical, but I don't know if that rule is universal).

2. Base to-hit is 5+.

So, you start with a 5+ to-hit and you have a +4 to strike and your opponent has +5 to parry. Assuming these are ALL the modifiers, you need to roll a 6+ to-hit ([5+]+5-4).

For ranged weapons, if Palladium used the same language, the language would say that a roll of 1-7 AFTER BONUSES is a miss.
shadrak
Champion
Posts: 1831
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 8:11 pm
Location: Bloomington, IL

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by shadrak »

Sidenote:

I utilize a house rule for dodging gunfire in place of the -10 dodge.

Instead rolling to dodge, I simply apply (at the cost of one attack or no attack if the target is using auto-dodge) a penalty to the firer based on the target's attempt to dodge. Generally, I allow for an ADDITIONAL penalty equal to 1/4 of the evading target's dodge (round up) in addition to the -1 for moving and -1 for evading.

Personally, I would like to see a complete revamp of the combat rules.
User avatar
Incriptus
Hero
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:01 am
Comment: Hey, relaaaax. Pretend it's a game. Maybe it'll even be fun
Shoot the tubes, Dogmeat!
Location: Washington State

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by Incriptus »

Definitely with bonuses. The idea of a trained melee combatant missing someone who isn't defending themselves is laughable.
Cr'Imson
Wanderer
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:11 am
Comment: Cry as you might, if the Ruby Slippers fit, wear them.

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

jburkett wrote:Hello, I am just hoping for some clarification. In melee combat, a roll of 1-4 is considered a miss. Is this understood to be a "natural" 1-4 is always a miss (don't consider bonuses). Considering bonuses, it would seem that even most 1st level characters would only miss in melee combat with a natural roll of "1". Thanks!

Rifts - H-to-H Combat, pg. 35 wrote:STEP 2: Attacker Rolls Strike
The next step is for the first attacker to roll a twenty-sided die. If the result is a four or less (counting bonuses), then the attacker misses.

Rifts - Combat Rules for High-Tech War Machines, pg. 38 wrote:Resolving Combat
The basic steps of resolving combat are essentially unchanged. Players must still determine initiative, roll to strike, ....




Cr'Imson
User avatar
glitterboy2098
Rifts® Trivia Master
Posts: 13319
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Location: Missouri
Contact:

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

ranged combat has a target of 8 rather than 4. and ranged bonuses are less common than hth ones, especially at lower levels. but it makes sense that it would be easier to hit someone with a punch or kick than it would be to try and shoot them from dozens or hundreds of feet away.
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
Cr'Imson
Wanderer
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:11 am
Comment: Cry as you might, if the Ruby Slippers fit, wear them.

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

glitterboy2098 wrote:ranged combat has a target of 8 rather than 4. and ranged bonuses are less common than hth ones, especially at lower levels. but it makes sense that it would be easier to hit someone with a punch or kick than it would be to try and shoot them from dozens or hundreds of feet away.

Rifts, pg. 40 wrote:Close Proximity Strike Bonuses
Technological advances have made war a long- range affair, with soldiers firing missiles at opponents, who appear as tiny blips on a radar screen miles away. However, the creation of battle armor, has restored the strength of the infantry, making close range combat possible. Thus, if opponents are within close proximity of one another (within 500ft/152m), they gain a bonus of + 1 to strike. This bonus applies to all combatants, skilled and unskilled, using weaponry or hand to hand combat with Robots and Power Armor. It does not apply to normal hand to hand combat among humans.




Cr'Imson
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7404
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

jburkett wrote:Okay, thanks for the clarification. I assume then that bonuses could also be applied in Ranged Combat to achieve the minimum number to Strike ("8" according to RUE). I think that when I mentioned 1st level characters I was already jumping ahead to this Ranged Combat question. A first level character, taking an Aimed Shot (+3 to Strike) with a W.P. Laser Pistol (+1 to Strike at Level 1) could hit a target with a natural roll of "4" (4+3+1 = 8 ). Does that math add up for everyone? Thanks again!


Aimed Shot per RUE is +2 not +3, though after adding in WP it would be +3 total in that case (assuming the E-pistol being used doesn't have a strike bonus). It should also be noted that under RUE rules an Aimed Shot will take multiple actions (2).
shadrak
Champion
Posts: 1831
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 8:11 pm
Location: Bloomington, IL

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by shadrak »

glitterboy2098 wrote:ranged combat has a target of 8 rather than 4. and ranged bonuses are less common than hth ones, especially at lower levels. but it makes sense that it would be easier to hit someone with a punch or kick than it would be to try and shoot them from dozens or hundreds of feet away.


Remember that the language is different between ranged and melee combat...

Melee combat: "4 or below" is a miss. This means that your target is 5+. (miss on 1-4)

Ranged combat: "8 or above" is a hit. This means your target is 8+. (miss on 1-7)
User avatar
Blue_Lion
Knight
Posts: 6226
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Clone Lab 27

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

rue PG 339 wrote: The next step is for the first attacker to roll a twenty-sided die. If the result is a four or less (counting bonuses), the attacker misses. Any roll above a/our will hit the opponent, unless the defender can parry or dodge the attack.

rue pg 340 wrote:A roll of 1-4 to strike is always a miss. A roll of a Natural 20 is always a hit and a Critical Strike (double damage), unless the defender also rolls a Natural 20 to parry or dodge. Defender always wins ties.



Current rules specify it is a modified roll 1-4 misses. When rifts originally came out a natural roll of 1-4 would miss. RUE changed the core combat rules.-That is likely the source of some of the confusion.


Missile combat is the only current combat rule that does not have a target number that instructs you to add in bonuses.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
User avatar
The Beast
Demon Lord Extraordinaire
Posts: 5956
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:28 pm
Comment: You probably think this comment is about you, don't you?
Location: Apocrypha

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by The Beast »

Cr'Imson wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:ranged combat has a target of 8 rather than 4. and ranged bonuses are less common than hth ones, especially at lower levels. but it makes sense that it would be easier to hit someone with a punch or kick than it would be to try and shoot them from dozens or hundreds of feet away.

Rifts, pg. 40 wrote:Close Proximity Strike Bonuses
Technological advances have made war a long- range affair, with soldiers firing missiles at opponents, who appear as tiny blips on a radar screen miles away. However, the creation of battle armor, has restored the strength of the infantry, making close range combat possible. Thus, if opponents are within close proximity of one another (within 500ft/152m), they gain a bonus of + 1 to strike. This bonus applies to all combatants, skilled and unskilled, using weaponry or hand to hand combat with Robots and Power Armor. It does not apply to normal hand to hand combat among humans.




Cr'Imson


Is the CPSB rule still in effect? I thought RUE did away with it.
User avatar
Blue_Lion
Knight
Posts: 6226
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Clone Lab 27

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

shadrak wrote:This particular rule (1-4 AFTER bonuses) doesn't really work well based on the way that Palladium writes the rules...

What the 1-4 rule ACTUALLY represents is:

1. Natural 1 is always a miss. Natural 20 is always a hit (and I believe a critical, but I don't know if that rule is universal).

2. Base to-hit is 5+.

So, you start with a 5+ to-hit and you have a +4 to strike and your opponent has +5 to parry. Assuming these are ALL the modifiers, you need to roll a 6+ to-hit ([5+]+5-4).

For ranged weapons, if Palladium used the same language, the language would say that a roll of 1-7 AFTER BONUSES is a miss.

Where does it say a natural 1 always misses?

Your math is off a persons parry modifier is irrelevant to a number needed to roll to hit them. To hit them you need to roll a modified 5 or higher. Parry bonus is used when your target chooses to defend themselves with a parry and is an opposed roll not a passive defense so if you have no bonus to strike and your target has a +15 to parry you would hit on a roll of 5. . So if you had a +3 to strike and rolled a 2 you would hit. (2+3 =5.) However if the defender has a +2 to parry and roll a 3 they parry your attack because all ties go to defender.
Last edited by Blue_Lion on Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
User avatar
Prysus
Champion
Posts: 2593
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 7:48 pm
Location: Boise, ID (US)
Contact:

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by Prysus »

Blue_Lion wrote:Current rules specify it is a modified roll 1-4 misses. When rifts originally came out a natural roll of 1-4 would miss. RUE changed the core combat rules.-That is likely the source of some of the confusion.

Greetings and Salutations. In my copy of RMB (11th Printing) it has the "(counting bonuses)" line as well. So it's possible this was errata added later, or I'd personally suspect that since it's a single line that it was easily missed and/or forgotten.

Blue_Lion wrote:Where does it say a natural 1 always misses?

RUE, page 346, second/final line of "Miss." They don't use the term Natural, but they do say "regardless of bonuses." Answering that is the main reason I posted. Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys to all.
Living the Fantasy (fan website)

Rifter #45; Of Bows & Arrows (Archery; expanding rules and abilities)
Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
Rifter #55; Home Away From Home (Quorian Culture; expanded from PF Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands)

Official PDF versions of Rifter #45, #52, and #55 can be found at DriveThruRPG.
User avatar
glitterboy2098
Rifts® Trivia Master
Posts: 13319
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Location: Missouri
Contact:

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Prysus wrote:[justify]
Blue_Lion wrote:Current rules specify it is a modified roll 1-4 misses. When rifts originally came out a natural roll of 1-4 would miss. RUE changed the core combat rules.-That is likely the source of some of the confusion.

Greetings and Salutations. In my copy of RMB (11th Printing) it has the "(counting bonuses)" line as well. So it's possible this was errata added later, or I'd personally suspect that since it's a single line that it was easily missed and/or forgotten.


my sixth printing says, on pg 35, says counting bonuses.

but on pg40 under 'combat rules for high tech warmachines' in the "how to strike" section it says The Proceedure for ascertaining a strike is unchanged. The Attacker rolls a 20 sides die (1D20). a roll of a 1, 2, 3, or 4, is an automatic miss. A roll of a 5 or higher is a strike/hit., and that section does not address bonuses at all, even in the "strike bonuses" bit below it.


so the confusion might not be due to a wording change in a reprinting, rather it might be that RMB presented the same info different ways on different pages.
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
Cr'Imson
Wanderer
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:11 am
Comment: Cry as you might, if the Ruby Slippers fit, wear them.

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

The Beast wrote:Is the CPSB rule still in effect? I thought RUE did away with it.

Maybe. Not fully up to date on all of the changes, yet. However, it does establish a baseline for when to apply Long-Range rolls/penalties, short any other situational bonuses/penalties.



Cr'Imson
User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by Axelmania »

If you have characters with bonuses so high they can never miss, you haven't dug deep enough for ways to penalize them!
User avatar
Shorty Lickens
Hero
Posts: 1217
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:24 pm
Comment: Arrrrgggghhhh!
Location: Praxus

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by Shorty Lickens »

guardiandashi wrote:I look at it as a modified roll of X is a miss, because I don't think a constant 20%+ chance of missing no matter what is very realistic.


Not in a game.

But have you ever shot a gun in real life?
You ever shot at someone shooting at YOU?

Its not as easy as Arnold makes it look.
http://incompetech.com/graphpaper/
Create and print dozens of different graph papers.
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27955
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

glitterboy2098 wrote:
Prysus wrote:[justify]
Blue_Lion wrote:Current rules specify it is a modified roll 1-4 misses. When rifts originally came out a natural roll of 1-4 would miss. RUE changed the core combat rules.-That is likely the source of some of the confusion.

Greetings and Salutations. In my copy of RMB (11th Printing) it has the "(counting bonuses)" line as well. So it's possible this was errata added later, or I'd personally suspect that since it's a single line that it was easily missed and/or forgotten.


my sixth printing says, on pg 35, says counting bonuses.

but on pg40 under 'combat rules for high tech warmachines' in the "how to strike" section it says The Proceedure for ascertaining a strike is unchanged. The Attacker rolls a 20 sides die (1D20). a roll of a 1, 2, 3, or 4, is an automatic miss. A roll of a 5 or higher is a strike/hit., and that section does not address bonuses at all, even in the "strike bonuses" bit below it.


so the confusion might not be due to a wording change in a reprinting, rather it might be that RMB presented the same info different ways on different pages.


The confusion comes from people not understanding that Natural rolls have to be specified in order to be in the rules.
The rules say "A natural 20 is a critical strike" (or words to that effect), for example, NOT "a roll of 20."
That's because your "roll" is the die plus bonuses, unless otherwise specified.
In the combat section, it is NOT otherwise specified. It doesn't say jack about a Natural roll of 1-4 missing.
Therefore, bonuses are included.
That's the very point of bonuses, and the very point of the term "natural."
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
Warshield73
Megaversal® Ambassador
Posts: 5111
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
Comment: "I will not be silenced. I will not submit. I will find the truth and shout it to the world. "
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by Warshield73 »

Shorty Lickens wrote:
guardiandashi wrote:I look at it as a modified roll of X is a miss, because I don't think a constant 20%+ chance of missing no matter what is very realistic.


Not in a game.

But have you ever shot a gun in real life?
You ever shot at someone shooting at YOU?

Its not as easy as Arnold makes it look.

Look at police shootings. Even in those where they aren't being shot at the miss as much as 50% of the time.

Truthfully 20% miss rate is low
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2
User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by Axelmania »

You wouldn't so much need a static 20% rate of missing. That's a problem because police can consistently place good groupings on non-moving targets at close distances at a shooting range.

What you need are rough accumulating penalties based on distance and movement which inevitably lead to the percentages you're looking for, making long-distance shots at fast targets near-impossible without making close-range shots at slow targets sillily difficult.

Almost like some kind of "Speed/Range Table" :)
User avatar
glitterboy2098
Rifts® Trivia Master
Posts: 13319
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Location: Missouri
Contact:

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

well RUE has rules for penalties based on target speed. but since they require more work and make hitting flying stuff a lot harder, a lot of Gm's chose not to use them.
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
User avatar
SpiritInterface
Hero
Posts: 887
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:48 pm
Location: Visalia, CA

Re: Basic Combat Rules Clarification

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

According to the RMB pg.35 any roll after adds is a 4 or less it is a miss.
Veni Vidi Vici
Una Salus Victis Nullam Sperare Salutem
Sic vis pacem, Para bellum
Audentes fortuna iuvat
O Tolmon Nika
Oderint Dum Metuant
Post Reply

Return to “Rifts®”