Evading CS Psi-Stalker's senses up close (20ft or so)

[Atroxadventurer]

Is this possible for Psychics or Spellcasters to do with anything?

Alter Aura?
Mask PPE?

If a group of adventurers were travelling near CS Territory, and were accosted by a CS Team with a PS or Dogboy, would the adventurer team's Mind Melter and Linewalker be screwed?

What about a Nightbane in facade form??

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Mystic Invisibility (Mercenary Adventures) would make them totally immune.

[kaid]

Mask PPE and alter aura help. If nothing else they can mute your signature so you get seen as a minor psychic which are not that uncommon. Mystic invisibility would let you pretty much walk past them but you have to be careful. The act of casting it would send up a flare so you have to make sure you are far enough away when turning it on not to get an immediate strike in your area. Basically when you get within a few hundred feet of them if you are seeking to avoid conflict avoid spell casting or psychic abilities other than the masking sort of abilities.

[eliakon]

Mystic Invisbility though has a couple problems
The first problem of course is getting the spell.
While it has turned into one of the most popular and common spells that every wizard takes setting wise it shouldn't be that easy to get... and at level seven it is going to be tricky to get regardless.

Second you will need to make sure you do not have magic items, or any other active spells or the like on you since it only masks "the mage".

And last but not least if a Psi-Stalker or Dog-Boy visually sees your or smells or otherwise notices you with any non-psychic sense while the spell is active the gig is up since they will instantly notice that they can't sense anything about you with any of their psychic senses. Which means you are obviously some sort of Mutant/D-bee/Mage/Psi/something-else-that-is-not-a-normal-human and thus will need to be dealt with according to the place, time, and orders.

[Shark_Force]

Mystic Invisbility though has a couple problems
The first problem of course is getting the spell.
While it has turned into one of the most popular and common spells that every wizard takes setting wise it shouldn't be that easy to get... and at level seven it is going to be tricky to get regardless.

Second you will need to make sure you do not have magic items, or any other active spells or the like on you since it only masks "the mage".

And last but not least if a Psi-Stalker or Dog-Boy visually sees your or smells or otherwise notices you with any non-psychic sense while the spell is active the gig is up since they will instantly notice that they can't sense anything about you with any of their psychic senses. Which means you are obviously some sort of Mutant/D-bee/Mage/Psi/something-else-that-is-not-a-normal-human and thus will need to be dealt with according to the place, time, and orders.

why would they figure out anything from the fact that they can't detect you? they can't detect normal people who have no psychic powers when they use their psychic scent ability either. not being able to detect magic or psionics in people is perfectly normal and not suspicious in the slightest.

as to being hard to find, i doubt it. control over that spell doesn't benefit most guilds very much, really, so i would expect them to be happy to sell the knowledge (for the right price). a spell like energy sphere i could see being something a guild wouldn't want to give (they can sell energy spheres). or a spell like sustain. even spells like fly as the eagle or superhuman strength you might be able to sell casting that for people. but mystic invisibility? the main places anyone needs that spell are places a merchant mage does not want to be.

[Atroxadventurer]

Ok cool, that ability/spell should help.

[eliakon]

Mystic Invisbility though has a couple problems
The first problem of course is getting the spell.
While it has turned into one of the most popular and common spells that every wizard takes setting wise it shouldn't be that easy to get... and at level seven it is going to be tricky to get regardless.

Second you will need to make sure you do not have magic items, or any other active spells or the like on you since it only masks "the mage".

And last but not least if a Psi-Stalker or Dog-Boy visually sees your or smells or otherwise notices you with any non-psychic sense while the spell is active the gig is up since they will instantly notice that they can't sense anything about you with any of their psychic senses. Which means you are obviously some sort of Mutant/D-bee/Mage/Psi/something-else-that-is-not-a-normal-human and thus will need to be dealt with according to the place, time, and orders.

why would they figure out anything from the fact that they can't detect you? they can't detect normal people who have no psychic powers when they use their psychic scent ability either. not being able to detect magic or psionics in people is perfectly normal and not suspicious in the slightest.

They can't detect anything.
You have no aura
You have no psychic scent
You will not register on any form of psychic scan, what so ever, regardless of what they are using (Astral Projection, Empathy, See Aura, Telepathy, OCC abilities, implants, skills, any other powers... nothing)
It might help you walking down the burbs or something... but it is unlikely to get you past a check point. At a minimum some one is likely to be lurking around in the astral (one of the best PPE to ISP ratios out there) and when they see their friend talking to someone they can't see... yeah, issues.

as to being hard to find, i doubt it. control over that spell doesn't benefit most guilds very much, really, so i would expect them to be happy to sell the knowledge (for the right price). a spell like energy sphere i could see being something a guild wouldn't want to give (they can sell energy spheres). or a spell like sustain. even spells like fly as the eagle or superhuman strength you might be able to sell casting that for people. but mystic invisibility? the main places anyone needs that spell are places a merchant mage does not want to be.

Yes a GM can change the game world to make it more available, and then they can change the game world to make Combat Magic be seen as a valuable form of magic instead of one that is seen as vulgar and distasteful. That is their right.
But RAW that is not the case.
RAW it is a spell that most mages wouldn't touch, that most of those WITH the spell (Combat Mages) wouldn't ever teach a mage in the first place, and that as a seventh level spell is going to be fairly hard to get and fairly expensive.

This is not the place to argue the avaliability or prices of spells, or if guilds should have their monopolies... in the rules as written they do and thats that. It can be changed via rule zero, and many people think it should be. There are lots of convincing arguments on both sides of the issue.
And those arguments can be done in a thread about such issues not in a thread about evading a Psi-Stalker at 20'

[Axelmania]

The problem with Mask PPE / Alter Aura for mages is that you still register as using an active psionic power, and Mask ISP/Psionics prevents the use of other powers.

If you rule it doesn't cancel already active powers, you should be able to go Mask PPE > Mask ISP in sequence though, I guess?

Mystic Invisibility would still alert them as a spell recently cast, but then it would zip out, unable to track to source. Not sure how that works with LLW who can see magic.

[Shark_Force]

Mystic Invisbility though has a couple problems
The first problem of course is getting the spell.
While it has turned into one of the most popular and common spells that every wizard takes setting wise it shouldn't be that easy to get... and at level seven it is going to be tricky to get regardless.

Second you will need to make sure you do not have magic items, or any other active spells or the like on you since it only masks "the mage".

And last but not least if a Psi-Stalker or Dog-Boy visually sees your or smells or otherwise notices you with any non-psychic sense while the spell is active the gig is up since they will instantly notice that they can't sense anything about you with any of their psychic senses. Which means you are obviously some sort of Mutant/D-bee/Mage/Psi/something-else-that-is-not-a-normal-human and thus will need to be dealt with according to the place, time, and orders.

why would they figure out anything from the fact that they can't detect you? they can't detect normal people who have no psychic powers when they use their psychic scent ability either. not being able to detect magic or psionics in people is perfectly normal and not suspicious in the slightest.

They can't detect anything.
You have no aura
You have no psychic scent
You will not register on any form of psychic scan, what so ever, regardless of what they are using (Astral Projection, Empathy, See Aura, Telepathy, OCC abilities, implants, skills, any other powers... nothing)
It might help you walking down the burbs or something... but it is unlikely to get you past a check point. At a minimum some one is likely to be lurking around in the astral (one of the best PPE to ISP ratios out there) and when they see their friend talking to someone they can't see... yeah, issues.

context. the thread is not about getting through a checkpoint, it is about random CS patrols that happen to have dog boys or psi-stalkers.

(i would say it is also debatable as to whether astral vision is in fact a special sense that can be blocked by mystic invisibility, considering it is pretty much just perfectly ordinary sight with no special senses whatsoever, but the general principle remains the same... someone who is doing a specific investigation into whether you have an aura or whatever can discover that you have none. though even that can be fooled in the wilderness if you're in power armour, which can block those things anyways, or by simply hiding in a hidden compartment or similar where the psychic is expecting the 5th crate from the back to have no thoughts or emotions or aura anyways).

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Mystic Invisbility though has a couple problems
The first problem of course is getting the spell.
While it has turned into one of the most popular and common spells that every wizard takes setting wise it shouldn't be that easy to get... and at level seven it is going to be tricky to get regardless.

Second you will need to make sure you do not have magic items, or any other active spells or the like on you since it only masks "the mage".

And last but not least if a Psi-Stalker or Dog-Boy visually sees your or smells or otherwise notices you with any non-psychic sense while the spell is active the gig is up since they will instantly notice that they can't sense anything about you with any of their psychic senses. Which means you are obviously some sort of Mutant/D-bee/Mage/Psi/something-else-that-is-not-a-normal-human and thus will need to be dealt with according to the place, time, and orders.

why would they figure out anything from the fact that they can't detect you? they can't detect normal people who have no psychic powers when they use their psychic scent ability either. not being able to detect magic or psionics in people is perfectly normal and not suspicious in the slightest.

as to being hard to find, i doubt it. control over that spell doesn't benefit most guilds very much, really, so i would expect them to be happy to sell the knowledge (for the right price). a spell like energy sphere i could see being something a guild wouldn't want to give (they can sell energy spheres). or a spell like sustain. even spells like fly as the eagle or superhuman strength you might be able to sell casting that for people. but mystic invisibility? the main places anyone needs that spell are places a merchant mage does not want to be.

ALL of the Combat Magic spells are available for purchase from the established school that teaches the OCC. They arent hard to get at all.

[eliakon]

ALL of the Combat Magic spells are available for purchase from the established school that teaches the OCC. They arent hard to get at all.

Interesting claim there. What book is it in? And on what page? And while we are at it, where does it say that they will sell to anyone and not just Battle Mages?
Because I don't see anything of the sort in either the OCC nor the Combat spell section.

[dragonfett]

Mercenary Adventures near the front with the Combat Mage that is the most likely to have the spells. I am away from my books, but the jist of it is basically virtually all learned spell casters look down on Combat Magic as crude and uncivilized and most won't bother learning any, and those who do usually won't learn more than three or four.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Mercenary Adventures near the front with the Combat Mage that is the most likely to have the spells. I am away from my books, but the jist of it is basically virtually all learned spell casters look down on Combat Magic as crude and uncivilized and most won't bother learning any, and those who do usually won't learn more than three or four.

Even though they are almost all universally better than anything in "normal" magic at those levels or do things that normal magic cant even do.

Its more of Kevin's "i will tell you how you must roleplay" crap that i tend to ignore on general principle, like telling me my LLW has to wear a dress, my TW has to wear some stupid aviator coat, and other inane BS.

[Killer Cyborg]

Mercenary Adventures near the front with the Combat Mage that is the most likely to have the spells. I am away from my books, but the jist of it is basically virtually all learned spell casters look down on Combat Magic as crude and uncivilized and most won't bother learning any, and those who do usually won't learn more than three or four.

Even though they are almost all universally better than anything in "normal" magic at those levels or do things that normal magic cant even do.

Its more of Kevin's "i will tell you how you must roleplay" crap that i tend to ignore on general principle, like telling me my LLW has to wear a dress, my TW has to wear some stupid aviator coat, and other inane BS.

Those aren't have-tos.
Those are general trends.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Mercenary Adventures near the front with the Combat Mage that is the most likely to have the spells. I am away from my books, but the jist of it is basically virtually all learned spell casters look down on Combat Magic as crude and uncivilized and most won't bother learning any, and those who do usually won't learn more than three or four.

Even though they are almost all universally better than anything in "normal" magic at those levels or do things that normal magic cant even do.

Its more of Kevin's "i will tell you how you must roleplay" crap that i tend to ignore on general principle, like telling me my LLW has to wear a dress, my TW has to wear some stupid aviator coat, and other inane BS.

Those aren't have-tos.
Those are general trends.

Its also a general trend in his writing. He has a clear vision of how ALL characters of that OCC/Class/Race are supposed to be played and he has no problems telling you you're doing it wrong if you aren't doing it the way he envisioned it. Read the Book of Magic and his comments therein if you have even the slightest doubt about that attitude on his part.

[Killer Cyborg]

Mercenary Adventures near the front with the Combat Mage that is the most likely to have the spells. I am away from my books, but the jist of it is basically virtually all learned spell casters look down on Combat Magic as crude and uncivilized and most won't bother learning any, and those who do usually won't learn more than three or four.

Even though they are almost all universally better than anything in "normal" magic at those levels or do things that normal magic cant even do.

Its more of Kevin's "i will tell you how you must roleplay" crap that i tend to ignore on general principle, like telling me my LLW has to wear a dress, my TW has to wear some stupid aviator coat, and other inane BS.

Those aren't have-tos.
Those are general trends.

Its also a general trend in his writing. He has a clear vision of how ALL characters of that OCC/Class/Race are supposed to be played and he has no problems telling you you're doing it wrong if you aren't doing it the way he envisioned it.

Sounds like you're taking off-hand comments about fashion trends as immutable canon for every individual.

Read the Book of Magic and his comments therein if you have even the slightest doubt about that attitude on his part.

I've read it.
Have you?
Which parts are you referring to...?

[The Beast]

Mercenary Adventures near the front with the Combat Mage that is the most likely to have the spells. I am away from my books, but the jist of it is basically virtually all learned spell casters look down on Combat Magic as crude and uncivilized and most won't bother learning any, and those who do usually won't learn more than three or four.

Even though they are almost all universally better than anything in "normal" magic at those levels or do things that normal magic cant even do.

Its more of Kevin's "i will tell you how you must roleplay" crap that i tend to ignore on general principle, like telling me my LLW has to wear a dress, my TW has to wear some stupid aviator coat, and other inane BS.

Those aren't have-tos.
Those are general trends.

Its also a general trend in his writing. He has a clear vision of how ALL characters of that OCC/Class/Race are supposed to be played and he has no problems telling you you're doing it wrong if you aren't doing it the way he envisioned it.

Sounds like you're taking off-hand comments about fashion trends as immutable canon for every individual.

Read the Book of Magic and his comments therein if you have even the slightest doubt about that attitude on his part.

I've read it.
Have you?
Which parts are you referring to...?

He's talking about the section that starts on page 10 and ends on page 15. It's material that was originally printed in one of the first couple of Rifter issues.

[eliakon]

Yes I am quite aware that this is more of that "this is how you must role-play your character" stuff. I dislike it myself as well and RZ it all such material out of my games instantly as well. However hat does not change the fact that RAW it still exists. A GM can change the game as they see fit (and I do so see fit) but until a GM does the changing, the world is as described in the books. That's just how it is. As such saying that RAW it is hard to get is the canon, and saying it is widely available is the house rule. One can ask the GM how they plan to go about this of course. But simply because some people dislike the canon does not mean the canon changes.

Personally I just solved the entire problem by making Combat Spells an exclusive school that can only be learned and used by Combat Mages, Temporal Warriors, Battle Magus, Mystic Knights and their ilk. My opinion for my game was that these were specialized battle magic... and therefor I just restricted them to the classes that are described as being specialized for battle. Simple. It keeps me from having to ban the entire school out right (waaayyy to many of those spells are just insanely broken, as in they start at vastly overpowered and work up to game breaking). I took a couple spells I liked, rejiggered a few numbers (level, PPE) and made Invocation conversions of them to plunk down in the Invocation list.

[Axelmania]

"Hiding from people who would kill you is for gutter mages" *casts invisibility superior*

[Atroxadventurer]

"Hiding from people who would kill you is for gutter mages" *casts invisibility superior*

Berserker Mage!!

[Hotrod]

There are three factors to consider with this topic.

The first factor is the people being detected. Do they have magic, psionics, a supernatural nature, or some combination of all three? Are they carrying any items that would give them away via active magic, psionics, or techno-wizardry? Do they carry non-supernatural clues as to their true nature, such as scents or visual indications (line walker armor, carrying amulets, et cetera)? Do they have anything about them that would be distinctive biologically, such as symbiotes, mutations, or implants?

The second factor to consider is the psi-stalker. Default abilities allow tracking of supernatural creatures and magic/psionics, so as long as those are masked, and there aren't obvious visual clues, their detection abilities could indeed be foiled. However, psi-stalkers also have sensitive powers, and some of them could be useful in detecting suspicious people/behavior, including empathy, telepathy, object read, machine ghost, see aura, see the invisible, sense evil, and sense dimensional anomaly. Furthermore, they might take skills that could aid them in identifying suspicious people, including a range of lore skills, streetwise, surveillance, find contraband, and ID undercover agent.

The final factor to consider is what often comes with psi-stalkers: Dog boys. Their supernatural sensing abilities are similar to that of psi-stalkers, but they can also recognize individuals and specific types, an ability that, as written, Psi-Stalkers do not have (the Dog Boy description indicates that this ability is not as attuned as that of the stalker, but the stalker description does not include this ability in Lone Star or RUE). Furthermore, Dog Boys can recognize a wide variety of distinctive scents, so if your magic user has any special ingredients, potions, or anything that might give off a distinctive and recognizable smell, they may pick it up. Dog boys also automatically get Sense Evil, sense magic, sixth sense, empathy, and one more sensitive psionic power. They can also take a wide variety of military and espionage skills.

It could be an interesting exercise to make a list of these abilities and go through a character sheet to see if there's anything that might get the attention of a psi-stalker or dog boy, with or without some of the countermeasures mentioned in this thread. I imagine it would be difficult to eliminate them all.

[Atroxadventurer]

There are three factors to consider with this topic.

The first factor is the people being detected. Do they have magic, psionics, a supernatural nature, or some combination of all three? Are they carrying any items that would give them away via active magic, psionics, or techno-wizardry? Do they carry non-supernatural clues as to their true nature, such as scents or visual indications (line walker armor, carrying amulets, et cetera)? Do they have anything about them that would be distinctive biologically, such as symbiotes, mutations, or implants?

The second factor to consider is the psi-stalker. Default abilities allow tracking of supernatural creatures and magic/psionics, so as long as those are masked, and there aren't obvious visual clues, their detection abilities could indeed be foiled. However, psi-stalkers also have sensitive powers, and some of them could be useful in detecting suspicious people/behavior, including empathy, telepathy, object read, machine ghost, see aura, see the invisible, sense evil, and sense dimensional anomaly. Furthermore, they might take skills that could aid them in identifying suspicious people, including a range of lore skills, streetwise, surveillance, find contraband, and ID undercover agent.

The final factor to consider is what often comes with psi-stalkers: Dog boys. Their supernatural sensing abilities are similar to that of psi-stalkers, but they can also recognize individuals and specific types, an ability that, as written, Psi-Stalkers do not have (the Dog Boy description indicates that this ability is not as attuned as that of the stalker, but the stalker description does not include this ability in Lone Star or RUE). Furthermore, Dog Boys can recognize a wide variety of distinctive scents, so if your magic user has any special ingredients, potions, or anything that might give off a distinctive and recognizable smell, they may pick it up. Dog boys also automatically get Sense Evil, sense magic, sixth sense, empathy, and one more sensitive psionic power. They can also take a wide variety of military and espionage skills.

It could be an interesting exercise to make a list of these abilities and go through a character sheet to see if there's anything that might get the attention of a psi-stalker or dog boy, with or without some of the countermeasures mentioned in this thread. I imagine it would be difficult to eliminate them all.

Those are really good points, neither PS's or DB's come off as regular "dumb grunts", they would definitely use any way of investigating someone.

Even though it's not cannon, I'm guessing someone that is alien or has alien symbiotes, even though they look human, would smell "odd", prompting further/closer investigation.

With this in mind, a GM could have all kinds of interesting things going on in a NUTSET or more internal CS City campaign, with these sensitives.

[Shark_Force]

they don't need to be dumb. security *everywhere* sacrifices thoroughness for convenience in almost all circumstances. now, if you're trying to get an interview with emperor prosek? heck yeah they're going to use every method of investigation you can think of and a bunch more that you probably can't. for walking around the borders of CS territory? don't give them a reason to do an in-depth check involving active senses that cost ISP to use, and they'll probably just be on their way most of the time. there's going to be a fairly large amount of traffic there, from people who would *like* to live in the CS but can't, who also don't want to live in the 'burbs. investigating every single person thoroughly is unlikely to yield results sufficient to merit the cost... so you might see a patrol do random checks (much like getting on an airplane they'll randomly select people for more thorough investigations... and much like real life, prejudice will likely play a major part in how people are "randomly" selected). turn on see aura once or twice per day or something. but most of the time it's going to be a matter of looking, seeing that they appear human and don't smell like magic, and going about their business.

[dragonfett]

they don't need to be dumb. security *everywhere* sacrifices thoroughness for convenience in almost all circumstances. now, if you're trying to get an interview with emperor prosek? heck yeah they're going to use every method of investigation you can think of and a bunch more that you probably can't. for walking around the borders of CS territory? don't give them a reason to do an in-depth check involving active senses that cost ISP to use, and they'll probably just be on their way most of the time. there's going to be a fairly large amount of traffic there, from people who would *like* to live in the CS but can't, who also don't want to live in the 'burbs. investigating every single person thoroughly is unlikely to yield results sufficient to merit the cost... so you might see a patrol do random checks (much like getting on an airplane they'll randomly select people for more thorough investigations... and much like real life, prejudice will likely play a major part in how people are "randomly" selected). turn on see aura once or twice per day or something. but most of the time it's going to be a matter of looking, seeing that they appear human and don't smell like magic, and going about their business.

This!

[Eagle]

Yeah I agree. They're going to rely on the stuff they can use without burning ISP. From the Dog Boy/Psi Stalker's perspective, they're just going about their day. They have no particular reason to use See Aura or any other ability right at that moment. Don't give them a reason to and they'll just walk right on by.

[Axelmania]

The NSB in Nightbane had some kind of tech-based supernatural sensor if I recall. It was inferior to Hounds but nice in that mundanes could use it. I think the CS should have something like that sine their tech is better.

[dragonfett]

They have something that can detect 20+ ISP (or the presence of Major/Master level psychics) out to a whopping range of 4'. Page 155 of Psyscape.

[Axelmania]

Ah I think I was remembering that. I still think it's really useful:
*Muggles can use it
*Ley lines don't jam scent like psi-stalkers
*Could be equipped on AI

[eliakon]

Don't forget that you need to cast your cloaking spells outside of their detection range.
It wouldn't help to trigger an alert when they sense the spell be cast if your trying to not trigger an alert.

[Axelmania]

That's a good idea, but even if you cast it in range, all they know is that someone cast a spell and then vanished.

Far as I can tell even though it is an ongoing spell, it would register to them like an Instant spell because the effect is the magic disappears.

[Hotrod]

they don't need to be dumb. security *everywhere* sacrifices thoroughness for convenience in almost all circumstances. now, if you're trying to get an interview with emperor prosek? heck yeah they're going to use every method of investigation you can think of and a bunch more that you probably can't. for walking around the borders of CS territory? don't give them a reason to do an in-depth check involving active senses that cost ISP to use, and they'll probably just be on their way most of the time. there's going to be a fairly large amount of traffic there, from people who would *like* to live in the CS but can't, who also don't want to live in the 'burbs. investigating every single person thoroughly is unlikely to yield results sufficient to merit the cost... so you might see a patrol do random checks (much like getting on an airplane they'll randomly select people for more thorough investigations... and much like real life, prejudice will likely play a major part in how people are "randomly" selected). turn on see aura once or twice per day or something. but most of the time it's going to be a matter of looking, seeing that they appear human and don't smell like magic, and going about their business.

That being the case, it could be useful to sort out the "always on" abilities of the Psi-Stalker and the Dog Boys, both in terms of their supernatural senses, the relevant psi-sensitive powers, and their scent abilities. The way I see it, these abilities would be the general alarm, so to speak, which would induce them to use their abilities that require activation or concentration.

It could be interesting to explore the mechanics of a "cat and mouse" style adventure.