Can a demon learn new skills?

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Nightwindfanclub
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Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by Nightwindfanclub »

Or can demon learn a new OCC? One of my players plays a heroic hellion. She wants here Nightwinddemon demon to learn new skills and grow. I agree experience is pointless if this is not the case. If they can; what how do I go about it? Thank you guys.
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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The HH is a power cat and fall under the HU education system. (And technically can't change their class cause they have no class.) As such she would put in in game time to learn the new skills. See the HU mainbook for the details.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by eliakon »

Nightwindfanclub wrote:Or can demon learn a new OCC? One of my players plays a heroic hellion. She wants here Nightwinddemon demon to learn new skills and grow. I agree experience is pointless if this is not the case. If they can; what how do I go about it? Thank you guys.

There are a couple ways to do this, it will depend on the route you want to go.
One solution is to have a rouge scholar tech them some skills. Or use the "go back to school" rules. Or send them to one of the various schools and academies in the various books.

Another solution is to use the class changing rules from High Seas to let them change class (I would, personally, recommend that they use the higher XP chart of the two, and can only take basic classes like a vagabond, or saloon girl or the like)

Yet another solution is to use your GM wand and add some secondary skill slots to the class, and possibly some OCCr skills (say a new secondary skill at levels 3,6,9,12 and a new OCCR at 7 and 15)

A solution that I have found works well is to use the "Dual class mega hero" rules from the Rifter...
The player rolls up a normal member of the desired race (in this case a Nightwind Demon)
then they roll up a normal member of an OCC that we approve (lets say they wilderness scout)
They then combine the two, and use the Mega-Hero XP chart.
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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by Axelmania »

I would let Rogue Scholars teach secondary skills to pretty much anything.
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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

When converting a power cat to a Character Class based format during char creation, or just to give a char a generic skills set, I use the skills set from "The Psychic" CC in the NB mainbook.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
eliakon wrote:snip...

Yet another solution is to use your GM wand and add some secondary skill slots to the class, and possibly some OCCr skills (say a new secondary skill at levels 3,6,9,12 and a new OCCR at 7 and 15)

…snip

When converting a power cat to a Character Class based format, or just to give a char a generic skills set, I use the skills set from "The Psychic" CC in the NB mainbook.

EDIT: Post edited. - NMI

There is no mystical 'difference' between a 'power category' and a 'character class'
Its just "This is the short hand that describes what you do"
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

eliakon wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
eliakon wrote:snip...

Yet another solution is to use your GM wand and add some secondary skill slots to the class, and possibly some OCCr skills (say a new secondary skill at levels 3,6,9,12 and a new OCCR at 7 and 15)

…snip

When converting a power cat to a Character Class based format, or just to give a char a generic skills set, I use the skills set from "The Psychic" CC in the NB mainbook.

You do realize that outside of your headcanon there is no 'conversion'?
There is no mystical 'difference' between a 'power category' and a 'character class'
Its just "This is the short hand that describes what you do"

A character class has both Template concept and a skills set.
A power cat is, in all but two, just a Template concept.
So saying that they are the same is ether terribly misinformed or is making up to attack someone else cause you don't like them continually stating things as What They Are.


All I was trying to do with my former post was to give the OP a different short cut to make the HH power Cat. into a CC. Instead I get you dissing on the idea, just because of your OPINION that there is no different between a power cat and a CC, even thou when you read the text critically they are different types of Character Templates.

There are CC's (by name only) that work like power cats. They are found in the BTS2 book and the N&S book.

If you were talking about any other CC's from any other settings you are just plain Wrong.
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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

While both Character Classes (as they are presenting in Rifts & most of the settings) and Power categories are both one of the four of the PB character creation templates. Each is different from the other as Apples, Lemons, Watermelons, and Tomatoes, all are fruits and all are different.
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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
eliakon wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
eliakon wrote:snip...

Yet another solution is to use your GM wand and add some secondary skill slots to the class, and possibly some OCCr skills (say a new secondary skill at levels 3,6,9,12 and a new OCCR at 7 and 15)

…snip

When converting a power cat to a Character Class based format, or just to give a char a generic skills set, I use the skills set from "The Psychic" CC in the NB mainbook.


There is no mystical 'difference' between a 'power category' and a 'character class'
Its just "This is the short hand that describes what you do"

A character class has both Template concept and a skills set.
A power cat is, in all but two, just a Template concept.
So saying that they are the same is ether terribly misinformed or is making up to attack someone else cause you don't like them continually stating things as What They Are.


All I was trying to do with my former post was to give the OP a different short cut to make the HH power Cat. into a CC. Instead I get you dissing on the idea, just because of your OPINION that there is no different between a power cat and a CC, even thou when you read the text critically they are different types of Character Templates.

There are CC's (by name only) that work like power cats. They are found in the BTS2 book and the N&S book.

If you were talking about any other CC's from any other settings you are just plain Wrong.

And there you go.
Presenting your, personal opinion as 'truth' and others as "just plain wrong"

N&SS, BTS1, BTS2, TMNT, ATB, HU1, HU1r, HU2...
All have various different ways of defining how a person is.
None of them, in any book, are said to be incapable of changing to a new OCC
Now sure, a person can add text to the RAW that makes that happen. But that isn't actually written in the books. Thus it is neither RAW nor Canon.
And for this thread I was only talking about canon answers.
If I was talking about my house rules I would have put that after the canon and labeled it as such.
Which, I note, is something that you tell everyone else to do. So I might ask that you do the same.
IF you can present a book citation saying that these individuals can not change then great. Otherwise its just your personal opinion and unbacked by the text.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

What I posted was a "hay, here is another way to do things" type post. Not even hinting that what I was saying was canon.
Why did I post this? Cause it is good…Lazy…way of making a power cat, a BTS2 PCC or a N&S CC into a Rifts type CC. Or just to make a 'normal person' type char without having to invent a whole new CC.

There is no canon way for a power cat to be converted into a rifts type of CC.

I didn't bring anything else up. You brought everything you are dissing me about yourself.

Just to make it CLEAR. I was only talking about using, outside of the normal canon texts, the ""Skills Set"" from the NB MB's "the Psychic" CC to make a normal person CC or to give a power cat type template a Skill set for making it into a rifts style CC. During char creation.
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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Eli since for people to understand your comment things have to be explained. We have already heard your snide comments so please do not repeat them because I am not arguing with you about this. I am only explaining the background of them.

To the point of the char using the OCC changing rules in the Highseas book that eli is stuck on. a strict reading of those rules as presented within the the PF2: Highseas book only apply to OCCs. There is no text there that even suggests that they can be applied to anything but OCCs.

The argument that seams to want to continue here is what constitutes and OCC.
Is it just OCCs job/career life paths? Or do you include PCCs…psychic life paths too? Are RCC's racial (and tribal) life paths?

While this has been argued to death (which eli hadn't dragged it out into this). The thing is some think that what is meant by the text when it say OCCs it to mean all Character Classes. Since there are typos all over the PF books that place RCC's and PCC's into the general heading OCCs. While other, me being one of them, that the text means exactly what is says. That they only cover OCCs. Not RCC's nor PCC's.
Part of the argument was over whether or not PCC's that were mislabeled as RCC's in the older Rifts books and ones that are intentionally mislabeled in RUE are to be treated as PCC's within the published changing class rules in PF:Hs or by their mislabeling? Because there is text that every single PCC within PPF gamebooks prohibiting the chars with said PCCs from changing class from said class, AND there is text prohibiting all chars from changing TO any PCC, there was just a short step to concluding that ALL PCCs can not change their class using the PF:HS changing class rules. And since those same rules are the only canon ones within all the current canon gamebooks, and that RUE specifically states to use the highseas changing class rules, that Rifts PCCs, no mater if they were mislabeled or not could not change their class ether. Just like the PF PCCs.

As to my reasoning behind the conclusion….when you are a master psychic it is your powers that define the chars sense of self. And since this sense of self is the core of of the char's being, the char with a PCC can't change their class till they are no longer a psychic. In other word they have to loose their powers to be able to change their life path to give themselves meaning.

To say that there are some here vehemently rejected this reading of what the RAW meant with it's published text would be an understatement.

There has been no "meeting of the minds" where both sides agree on this. I do my best to not rub things into noses. But is seams Eli didn't like me pointing out that power cats are not Character Classes.
And now the argument is over whether or not they power categories? aye caromba.

All the canon text says that a char can only have one power cat. (r9.5 Q&A is one such text, & said by KS himself).

*looks at Eli directly* No I have not changed my mind and no I'm not going to argue over it with you. And as you see here I have not dissed on you in my explaining. Please keep it civil. Thou I would suggest it just be dropped.
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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Eli since for people to understand your comment things have to be explained. We have already heard your snide comments so please do not repeat them because I am not arguing with you about this. I am only explaining the background of them.

To the point of the char using the OCC changing rules in the Highseas book that eli is stuck on. a strict reading of those rules as presented within the the PF2: Highseas book only apply to OCCs. There is no text there that even suggests that they can be applied to anything but OCCs.

The argument that seams to want to continue here is what constitutes and OCC.
Is it just OCCs job/career life paths? Or do you include PCCs…psychic life paths too? Are RCC's racial (and tribal) life paths?

While this has been argued to death (which eli hadn't dragged it out into this). The thing is some think that what is meant by the text when it say OCCs it to mean all Character Classes. Since there are typos all over the PF books that place RCC's and PCC's into the general heading OCCs. While other, me being one of them, that the text means exactly what is says. That they only cover OCCs. Not RCC's nor PCC's.
Part of the argument was over whether or not PCC's that were mislabeled as RCC's in the older Rifts books and ones that are intentionally mislabeled in RUE are to be treated as PCC's within the published changing class rules in PF:Hs or by their mislabeling? Because there is text that every single PCC within PPF gamebooks prohibiting the chars with said PCCs from changing class from said class, AND there is text prohibiting all chars from changing TO any PCC, there was just a short step to concluding that ALL PCCs can not change their class using the PF:HS changing class rules. And since those same rules are the only canon ones within all the current canon gamebooks, and that RUE specifically states to use the highseas changing class rules, that Rifts PCCs, no mater if they were mislabeled or not could not change their class ether. Just like the PF PCCs.

As to my reasoning behind the conclusion….when you are a master psychic it is your powers that define the chars sense of self. And since this sense of self is the core of of the char's being, the char with a PCC can't change their class till they are no longer a psychic. In other word they have to loose their powers to be able to change their life path to give themselves meaning.

To say that there are some here vehemently rejected this reading of what the RAW meant with it's published text would be an understatement.

There has been no "meeting of the minds" where both sides agree on this. I do my best to not rub things into noses. But is seams Eli didn't like me pointing out that power cats are not Character Classes.
And now the argument is over whether or not they power categories? aye caromba.

All the canon text says that a char can only have one power cat. (r9.5 Q&A is one such text, & said by KS himself).

*looks at Eli directly* No I have not changed my mind and no I'm not going to argue over it with you. And as you see here I have not dissed on you in my explaining. Please keep it civil. Thou I would suggest it just be dropped.

NMI was pretty clear that he wanted this civil... so try to keep it that way
The problem with your argument is that it creates the imaginary state of stating that because you do not have an OCC, you can not train in one.
Which is absurd.
We know that there are multiple examples of people who have trained out of things that are not OCCs.
And of course there is the issue of people picking up their first OCC
There for... yes, you can go from powercat to an OCC.
I didn't say you could go get a second power cat.
I said. Go from Hellion to Vagabond.
1 Power cat to 1 OCC
its what the rule was invented for.
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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

eliakon wrote:Snip..
The problem with your argument is that it creates the imaginary state of stating that because you do not have an OCC, you can not train in one.
Which is absurd.

I didn't say that the char could not learn any skills just because the char is a power cat. In fact the char could learn the skills of an OCC's skill set, while remaining the power cat.

That the changing OCC's rules do not cover power cats is a matter of RAW. Not anyone's imagination. There is no text in a HU book that says that the changing class rules could be used to change from a PC to a CC. This is unlike where RUE specifically says to use them to change BETWEEN CC's for the Rifts setting.

If there is any canon text that states what you are asserting, that players can use the OCC changing class rules to change from a power cat to a CC, please share it's location.

Or, as an option, you can say that what you suggested is outside the canon rules that GM's might employ via their Fiat.
--------

If Nightwindfanclub is the GM of the game with the char being talked about, then Nightwindfanclub has the fiat to use whatever rules that makes that game work.
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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
eliakon wrote:Snip..
The problem with your argument is that it creates the imaginary state of stating that because you do not have an OCC, you can not train in one.
Which is absurd.

I didn't say that the char could not learn any skills just because the char is a power cat. In fact the char could learn the skills of an OCC's skill set, while remaining the power cat.

*blink* not with out changing the rules!

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:That the changing OCC's rules do not cover power cats is a matter of RAW. Not anyone's imagination.

*le sigh*
I was hoping we could avoid this, again
It is not "Raw"
The Rules are as follows

Part One
Premise 1) Rifts uses the rules found in AotHS
Premise 2) Rifts allows characters from HU
Conclusion: Therefore in Rifts (which is what is being discussed), a character from HU, uses the rules in AotHS for changing class.

Part Two follows
Again. Rifts rules.
Premise 1) Rifts says that it uses AotHS rules
Premise 2) the AotHS rules only talk about the destination class they do not talk about, nor care what you were before.
Conclusion: Thus you can 'leave' anything to become a member of an O.C.C. You could have been a P.C.C., or an R.C.C., or a Power Category or anything else (assuming that there was something else to be). Now, it is arguable that you can only class into an O.C.C. which does give a limit on what you can become. And there is some...discussion on what is or is not an O.C.C. in Rifts. Again, that though has no bearing on what you can leave, just what you can enter.

And thus the canon rules state that this Nightwing can use the rules to change from a Heroic Hellion (freezing that at what ever level they are now) to become, for example, a Wilderness Scout (starting at level 1).
THAT is what I am discussing. The rules as written.
I am not saying that you can class INTO a power category
I am not saying that you can become an R.C.C. or even that you can become a P.C.C.
But just the narrow application of the rules as written about becoming an O.C.C.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There is no text in a HU book that says that the changing class rules could be used to change from a PC to a CC. This is unlike where RUE specifically says to use them to change BETWEEN CC's for the Rifts setting.

Correct.
And if this were a pure HU game then you would have a point.
Its not though
The question is being asked in the Rifts forum and not the HU forum.
The logical inference there is that, this question should be answered with Rifts rules not HU rules.
See my above explanation of why in Rifts a character with an HU Power Category can use the Class Changing rules.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:If there is any canon text that states what you are asserting, that players can use the OCC changing class rules to change from a power cat to a CC, please share it's location.

See Above

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Or, as an option, you can say that what you suggested is outside the canon rules that GM's might employ via their Fiat.

I don't have to do that, because it is not outside canon. It is quite literarily the canon as written.


drewkitty ~..~ wrote:If Nightwindfanclub is the GM of the game with the char being talked about, then Nightwindfanclub has the fiat to use whatever rules that makes that game work.

Again, that doesn't have any effect on what the canon is.
I do not care what your personal house rules are, because they are not relevant. I was just discussing what the game offered as options.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by dreicunan »

The demon could become an Enlightened Demon from Rifts China 2.
Axelmania wrote:You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.
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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

eliakon wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
eliakon wrote:Snip..
The problem with your argument is that it creates the imaginary state of stating that because you do not have an OCC, you can not train in one.
Which is absurd.

I didn't say that the char could not learn any skills just because the char is a power cat. In fact the char could learn the skills of an OCC's skill set, while remaining the power cat.

*blink* not with out changing the rules!

Note that I said things very accurately. I said the Skills Set. I didn't say the Class Skills.
Class skills being those unique to the class as a part of the class abilities.
A class skill set is in conglomeration """the OCC skills, the OCCr skills and the secondary skills""". Since most classes only have the common skills in there skill set what I said is true. Through the ed rules nearly all power cats follow the char can take time to learn a new skill from the common skills.

eliakon wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:That the changing OCC's rules do not cover power cats is a matter of RAW. Not anyone's imagination.

*le sigh*
I was hoping we could avoid this, again

I'm not the one presenting my GM rulings as canon. You are the one that brought this all up. So don't blame ME. You could of just treated my 1st post with contempt and ignored it and none of this discussion would of happened.

My 2nd post had ZERO to do with this subject, more a how do I add skills to a skill-less character idea, non-secqueture of a post. Yes, I really should not of quoted you in it, and I have corrected that.

eliakon wrote:Part One
Premise 1) Rifts uses the rules found in AotHS
Premise 2) Rifts allows characters from HU
Conclusion: Therefore in Rifts (which is what is being discussed), a character from HU, uses the rules in AotHS for changing class.

The conclusion you posted is a GM to ruling something you called me out on in the PCC arguments.

eliakon wrote:Part Two follows
Again. Rifts rules.
Premise 1) Rifts says that it uses AotHS rules
Premise 2) the AotHS rules only talk about the destination class they do not talk about, nor care what you were before.
Conclusion: Thus you can 'leave' anything to become a member of an O.C.C. You could have been a P.C.C., or an R.C.C., or a Power Category or anything else (assuming that there was something else to be). Now, it is arguable that you can only class into an O.C.C. which does give a limit on what you can become. And there is some...discussion on what is or is not an O.C.C. in Rifts. Again, that though has no bearing on what you can leave, just what you can enter.

A player can change his character's OCC at any point in his life,...
The 1st line of the PF:HS's rules on change a class. RAW
Again the GM fiat is needed for a power cat to be treated/considered as a CC for the canon changing class rules to apply. I'm not the one making any GM ruling here.

eliakon wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Or, as an option, you can say that what you suggested is outside the canon rules that GM's might employ via their Fiat.

I don't have to do that, because it is not outside canon. It is quite literarily the canon as written.

Quite literarily the canon as written has no text for power cats to be treated as CCs. Quite literarily the canon as written power cats are not ""Mystically"" the same as CCs. Most of the ideas you have presented here have at a "GM made a Ruling" written into them.

eliakon wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:If Nightwindfanclub is the GM of the game with the char being talked about, then Nightwindfanclub has the fiat to use whatever rules that makes that game work.

Again, that doesn't have any effect on what the canon is.
I do not care what your personal house rules are, because they are not relevant. I was just discussing what the game offered as options.

I am not discussing My House rules, I am talking about what canon literarily says, without making any GM rulings and saying its what the rules says.

Again an RFI: If there is specific text that says to treat a power cat as a CC when a Power cat PC gets transported to the Rifts setting, please, please give us the location. I have looked in the RCB1r and can't find any.
-------------------

The problem with power cats is that good portion of them do not involve skills at their core defining idea. So they cannot ALL be treated with the same rules or the same GM rulings.
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Now since you keep saying that I'm posting my house rules about this specific situation I will..on the next line from here.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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drewkitty ~..~
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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Yep I didn't post any house ruling on this since I don't have any.

But if if it did come up in one of my games I would want to see the whole char sheet and not make an ad-hoc ruling on just whether or this or that power cat can do something. Level of education and the players RP might come into consideration when making a a ruling about this. RP being whether or not the player while speaking in character has shown a desire to get a 'better education' or 'make a better life through learning' type comments.

So my ruling is more saying ""how I would go about making it" then what it would be.
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kaid
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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by kaid »

With the minion war there are a few cannon demonish or demon type RCC/OCC that can clearly learn new skills.

Most demons simply could not be bothered to sit down and learn some mortal skill but the more advanced ones/leaders/special cases clearly have the ability to learn and adapt to new skills.

Edit

One thing you may want to look at is I think called the enlightened demon option from rifts china2 which is a good way for a demon to gain more skills but by doing so become more human over time.

Also the heroes unlimited minion war book armageddon unlimited I believe has some demon hero options I think for a more super hero sort of build.
Last edited by kaid on Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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eliakon
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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by eliakon »

Actually, the Brass Guard and Brass Guard II from Hades demonstrate that it is possible for demons to learn a 'skill program' of some sort...
...since, well... they are demons, and they have done so.
:lol:
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kaid
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Re: Can a demon learn new skills?

Unread post by kaid »

eliakon wrote:Actually, the Brass Guard and Brass Guard II from Hades demonstrate that it is possible for demons to learn a 'skill program' of some sort...
...since, well... they are demons, and they have done so.
:lol:



Yes especially with the megaverse in flames books there are clearly examples of demons learning new skill options. It is not very common but clearly it can occur so it becomes the GM's call. But as I listed previously there are some book valid options for people who want to play demon heros that can gain skills/abilities.
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