Who wants a Revisit and Update Mutants in Orbit?

[ShadowLogan]

They have made leylines out in space canon but they have yet to come out and say that planets cross them during the solstices and such (Which makes perfect sense for them to do so )
once that cat is let out of the bag you have no end of mages or any other leyline using being going from earth to orbit and beyond and no real way for the orbitals to stop them.

If there are are Ley Lines in space one good way to neuter them in relation to planets is to consider how fast the planet/object is orbiting the host object and so you might be talking practical exploitations in terms of seconds before a given area of a planet is out of range.

[Gamer]

They have made leylines out in space canon but they have yet to come out and say that planets cross them during the solstices and such (Which makes perfect sense for them to do so )
once that cat is let out of the bag you have no end of mages or any other leyline using being going from earth to orbit and beyond and no real way for the orbitals to stop them.

If there are are Ley Lines in space one good way to neuter them in relation to planets is to consider how fast the planet/object is orbiting the host object and so you might be talking practical exploitations in terms of seconds before a given area of a planet is out of range.

There is no "IF" they are mentioned in the books.
There is even mention of Galactic ley lines.


What are you on about with orbiting host object?
The host object the planets are orbiting is the sun and has absolutely nothing to do with the subject.

[jaymz]

I think what he means is that spacial ley lines would be crossed by the planets and thus would happen very quickly.

[glitterboy2098]

i've generally figured that the planets are not linked direct to each other, but rather the space leylines link each to the sun. (and smaller ones link moons to a planet) thus why eclipses, conjunctions, alignments, and the like carry power surges.. when the lines are close to each other spatially, they carry more power flow, which feeds through the rest of the system to create surges.

i also figure that space ley lines are wide enough that an entire planet can be enveloped in them, which is why all nexi get the boosts rather than specific ones.

[ShadowLogan]

@glitterboy2098
Your theory does have one bit hole in it, and that is that Eclipses are relative to a given position, nor time of day related surges. It might just be easier to just put it down as "unexplainable" for Magic purposes.

There is no "IF" they are mentioned in the books.
There is even mention of Galactic ley lines.


What are you on about with orbiting host object?
The host object the planets are orbiting is the sun and has absolutely nothing to do with the subject.

I do recall them being part of the Phase World Setting, but as far as MiO book goes Ley Lines IIRC are only mentioned w/re to celestial bodies (planets, moons). That is why I put it down as IF since we are talking about the MiO setting.

Re: Host. The host orbiting object would be what you are relative in orbit about. The Moon orbits the Earth (host), the Earth orbits the Sun (host), the Sun orbits around the center of the Galaxy (host), etc.

It isn't just planets though that can come w/n range of a Space Ley Line, a ship, space station, comet, asteroid, etc can also come close to a Ley Line, since they are also capable of orbiting a host (be it a Planet, moon, or star). The time they will be exposoded to the influence of the Ley Line will be minimal when you consider velocities these objects will be traveling at, so the time in which you can use them will be very short.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There are space Leylines in both the PW and HU settings. They vary in strength individually and based on the area they pass through. (near planets, etc....)
Ranging from barely detectable to too dangerous for anyone to go near. Yes, the same LL can have multiple levels of power along its length.

In otherwords, if you are the GM ...whatever you decides.

[eliakon]

There is also the minor problem that there is not a 'space ley line' in every solar system. Meaning that a space ley line explanation doesn't work....because even planets that don't have them near by still get the boosts.

Put me down for the "because that is how magic works" crowd. (I have a really long complicated pet theory that I use in my own games based on a couple lines of text in the BTS1 book.... But it is utterly in the realm of Fannon and probably not really relevant to this thread.)

[Gamer]

There is also the minor problem that there is not a 'space ley line' in every solar system. Meaning that a space ley line explanation doesn't work....because even planets that don't have them near by still get the boosts.

Book where it says that.

Glitterboy had you considered that some of the ley lines might be in a path that the planet crosses along a length of the line thus providing the boosts for an extended time.
The L4 Lagrange point is a nexus point so obviously there are ley lines criss-crossing the solar system in places.
Considering the L4 Lagrange point follows Earth on it's lovely path around the sun that means that nexus point moves as does the ley lines that created it.

[eliakon]

There is also the minor problem that there is not a 'space ley line' in every solar system. Meaning that a space ley line explanation doesn't work....because even planets that don't have them near by still get the boosts.

Book where it says that.

Since the only canon mention of ley lines in space I could find besides the mention that the L4 point is a nexus was the paragraph on page 84 of Phase World where it said that after they started venturing into space the elves discovered ley lines in space, and with in a decade had mapped them all....
Since in all the centuries since then they still have not managed to explore vast sections of the galaxy that means that either the book is wrong or the conclusion that the cosmic ley line system links into every system.....

Now your turn. Where are you getting the information that there ARE ley lines in every system from?

Glitterboy had you considered that some of the ley lines might be in a path that the planet crosses along a length of the line thus providing the boosts for an extended time.
The L4 Lagrange point is a nexus point so obviously there are ley lines criss-crossing the solar system in places.
Considering the L4 Lagrange point follows Earth on it's lovely path around the sun that means that nexus point moves as does the ley lines that created it.

It is possible that the L4 point is a nexus made up of ley lines only as long as the L4 point itself though.....
Not every ley line is connected to every other ley line.

[Gamer]

Since you can't be bothered to read the books, here this is just some from Dimension book 6
pg17
A Magic Nebula can be either a dark or luminous nebula, but within it lays a series of ley lines and nexuses.

pg 20
5. Ley line storms. Networks of ley lines are known to crisscross through expanses, and with ley lines come the chance of
running into a ley line storm or even an enormous dimensional Rift!

pg 21
The travelers come upon a series of cosmic ley lines. They appear and disappear at random and will cover an
area that takes 1D4 days to cross. For every 1D6+6 hours in this area there is a 01-45% chance of a ley line storm.

pg 64
It seems that the largest stars are on the outer edge are not stars but rather, giant Rifts surging with magical energy. The four points seem to form a three dimensional triangle! Surging along the ley lines are immense cosmic storms.

pg 70
The Elemental Lands are a collapsed orange star that formed a plasma field. Within the plasma field are a series of ley lines that intersect to form some rather large nexus points.

pg 71
The Harkon Rift

two tidbits from Dimension book 5
pg 21
entire planetary deaths could send massive P.P.E. surges into the galactic nethersphere, where they might very well channel into the various ley lines connecting certain stars together.

pg 21
preventing evildoers and villains from taking advantage of this turbulent environment, to monitoring the galaxy’s ley line network


I do not have to furnish any information to you regarding something YOU and yourself alone presented as fact.
I merely presented the fact there are ley lines in space and i do believe i have now furnished far more references than should be needed for that as well.

[glitterboy2098]

There is also the minor problem that there is not a 'space ley line' in every solar system. Meaning that a space ley line explanation doesn't work....because even planets that don't have them near by still get the boosts.

Book where it says that.

Since the only canon mention of ley lines in space I could find besides the mention that the L4 point is a nexus was the paragraph on page 84 of Phase World where it said that after they started venturing into space the elves discovered ley lines in space, and with in a decade had mapped them all....
Since in all the centuries since then they still have not managed to explore vast sections of the galaxy that means that either the book is wrong or the conclusion that the cosmic ley line system links into every system.....

suddenly i am struck ny a vision of bespectacled Elves in thick coats in a dome atop a mountain, maneuvering an aertherscope that can view an arc-second of sky at a time as they focus on sensing ley lines through it, patiently mapping out the mystical heavens over decades.. then a few centuries later them putting one in orbit to do deep field ley line searches, only to have to send up a repair teams because they faceted a focusing crystal wrong, and had to come up with a mystic spell based filter to fix the fuzzy results they were getting...

[eliakon]

Since you can't be bothered to read the books, here this is just some from Dimension book 6
pg17
A Magic Nebula can be either a dark or luminous nebula, but within it lays a series of ley lines and nexuses.

pg 20
5. Ley line storms. Networks of ley lines are known to crisscross through expanses, and with ley lines come the chance of
running into a ley line storm or even an enormous dimensional Rift!

pg 21
The travelers come upon a series of cosmic ley lines. They appear and disappear at random and will cover an
area that takes 1D4 days to cross. For every 1D6+6 hours in this area there is a 01-45% chance of a ley line storm.

pg 64
It seems that the largest stars are on the outer edge are not stars but rather, giant Rifts surging with magical energy. The four points seem to form a three dimensional triangle! Surging along the ley lines are immense cosmic storms.

pg 70
The Elemental Lands are a collapsed orange star that formed a plasma field. Within the plasma field are a series of ley lines that intersect to form some rather large nexus points.

pg 71
The Harkon Rift

two tidbits from Dimension book 5
pg 21
entire planetary deaths could send massive P.P.E. surges into the galactic nethersphere, where they might very well channel into the various ley lines connecting certain stars together.

pg 21
preventing evildoers and villains from taking advantage of this turbulent environment, to monitoring the galaxy’s ley line network


I do not have to furnish any information to you regarding something YOU and yourself alone presented as fact.
I merely presented the fact there are ley lines in space and i do believe i have now furnished far more references than should be needed for that as well.

Okay so there are a few locations that have Ley Lines....
....in fact they seem to be so rare that they need to be called out as being present....
.....And of course there is the little fact that as I said the Elves were able to map every Ley Line in the Galaxy in a matter of years.

So yeah....That does not sound like any sort of interconnected system that connects every star.....


Also I believe you may be unaware of how debate works. There is something called "Citing ones sources" it means that when some one says "prove your claim" that you be able to, well, prove your claim.
I.e. if you want to make the affirmative claim that there are ley lines in every system, and that they are so common as to be able to influence planets (even though they are listed as being weaker then planetary lines, not stronger) then it is YOUR burden of proof to provide evidence to back up your claim. It is not my job to sift through several dozen books looking for your evidence for you.
This is why, when you ask me to back up my claim I went and got a quote from a book that backs up my claim.
I didn't try to ridicule or insult the other person (Ad Hominem attacks prove nothing) nor did I tell you "its in there go find it yourself."

[Nox Equites]

If you want to shake up the MiO setting toss in a Star Hive from DB2. That'll keep em busy for awhile.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...
Not every ley line is connected to every other ley line.

Eli is correct in saying this about space LL. Since unlike LL running across the surface of a globe Space LL run in three dimension space in which LL don't have to cross into a LLN when they appear pass each other. sort of like how Kirk out thought Kahn by maneuvering in three dimensions.

Or how planes at different altitudes don't run into each other even though they are at the same place on the map.

[eliakon]

snip...
Not every ley line is connected to every other ley line.

Eli is correct in saying this about space LL. Since unlike LL running across the surface of a globe Space LL run in three dimension space in which LL don't have to cross into a LLN when they appear pass each other. sort of like how Kirk out thought Kahn by maneuvering in three dimensions.

Or how planes at different altitudes don't run into each other even though they are at the same place on the map.

There isn't any evidence that all the planets Ley Lines connect either. And since we have several maps of Ley Lines that show separate lines........
I don't see any reason to suppose that space lines are any different.....

[Bill]

I'm reading through MiO in preparation for an upcoming demo. I'd make the following changes.

• Eliminate the references to pre-flash nations beyond acknowledging who was responsible for their construction. It's been 300 years, let's create a little history of the orbital nations and give them their own cultural identity. It would help flesh out the book too.
• Increase the orbital population by a couple orders of magnitude. It's around 55K in my copy of the book with no better reason than resource scarcity. That's a decent reason except that they seem to have all the resources necessary to support a much larger population. And a larger population supports the possibility of larger scale political and armed conflict, and more extensive trade.
• Detail more stations further out in the solar system. Mining stations in the belt, research stations orbiting Mars and Venus, pirate refuges hanging in the black.
• More and better spacecraft. Navies of the larger stations that protect their claimed territories and affiliated traders.

I'd really shoot for more of a scifi-maritime adventure rather than the survival/exploration game we've currently got. I think there's room for all of those themes in the current game, but we've got limited support for space swashbuckling.

[Blue_Lion]

snip...
Not every ley line is connected to every other ley line.

Eli is correct in saying this about space LL. Since unlike LL running across the surface of a globe Space LL run in three dimension space in which LL don't have to cross into a LLN when they appear pass each other. sort of like how Kirk out thought Kahn by maneuvering in three dimensions.

Or how planes at different altitudes don't run into each other even though they are at the same place on the map.

There isn't any evidence that all the planets Ley Lines connect either. And since we have several maps of Ley Lines that show separate lines........
I don't see any reason to suppose that space lines are any different.....

Think it was fleets that said every planet had X space nexus points and only two are usable. So we know there are ley lines by every planet but it never says all the leyline network is connected.

[eliakon]

snip...
Not every ley line is connected to every other ley line.

Eli is correct in saying this about space LL. Since unlike LL running across the surface of a globe Space LL run in three dimension space in which LL don't have to cross into a LLN when they appear pass each other. sort of like how Kirk out thought Kahn by maneuvering in three dimensions.

Or how planes at different altitudes don't run into each other even though they are at the same place on the map.

There isn't any evidence that all the planets Ley Lines connect either. And since we have several maps of Ley Lines that show separate lines........
I don't see any reason to suppose that space lines are any different.....

Think it was fleets that said every planet had X space nexus points and only two are usable. So we know there are ley lines by every planet but it never says all the leyline network is connected.

And remember, that MiO says that there are nexi at the L4 point...which is why it is abandoned. The other L points do NOT have them in MiO....
...so either that information is a full retcon, or only applies to the PW universe and is not megaversal to all words.

[Nightmask]

snip...
Not every ley line is connected to every other ley line.

Eli is correct in saying this about space LL. Since unlike LL running across the surface of a globe Space LL run in three dimension space in which LL don't have to cross into a LLN when they appear pass each other. sort of like how Kirk out thought Kahn by maneuvering in three dimensions.

Or how planes at different altitudes don't run into each other even though they are at the same place on the map.

There isn't any evidence that all the planets Ley Lines connect either. And since we have several maps of Ley Lines that show separate lines........
I don't see any reason to suppose that space lines are any different.....

Think it was fleets that said every planet had X space nexus points and only two are usable. So we know there are ley lines by every planet but it never says all the leyline network is connected.

And remember, that MiO says that there are nexi at the L4 point...which is why it is abandoned. The other L points do NOT have them in MiO....
...so either that information is a full retcon, or only applies to the PW universe and is not megaversal to all words.

Isn't the L4 point where the remains of the Sino-Japanese Station is at? If so it was abandoned because the deaths of all the occupants left the region populate with dangerous haunting entities and other lethal mystical creatures along with a variety of Kill Sats that still remain, the ones that originally sliced it up and killed everyone in the first place rather than because it had a Nexus (although the Nexus does keep 'restocking' as it were the location with dangerous entities like a 1st Edition AD&D dungeon).

[gaby]

I still Hope Palladium books,do it.
They can make it into ther own Setting,Rifts Space,a Update Mutants in Orbit will be the First book.

[Sambot]

I would love a second edition to Mutants in Orbit. It's been way too long since we've heard about what was happening in Rifts Space. I'd love to know how the space stations and moon base alliance against the Arkons is going. How the Arkons's terraforming of Mars is going and what the Alliance is going to do to stop it. I really can't see them letting that go unanswered.

I don't mind if there were conversion notes for After the Bomb but I think it'd be better if it were written more for Rifts. I don't think the mutants should be removed though but maybe they could be revised to be more Rifts like? I also think that any tech advancements should be more recent. Up until the Arkons they'd been fighting each other so that'd take a toll on things. I also hope that ships stay sublight for the most part. Maybe a slow FTL for the most advanced ships.

But I'll probably be happy with anything in the book

[Zer0 Kay]

But then they run into the "we can't logically do this because it would be so much power creep because the spacers have been developing technology since the apocolypse (psst, that's 300 years!!) Then we'll have people complain about power creep since they did in other books where the technology had 300 years to develop instead of just having been found by NUBs a century or less ago... I guess it would be logical, but still." issue.

[guardiandashi]

as far as power creep (or lack of it) due to 300 years mutants in orbit is one of those places where I would say legitimate focused R&D might occur, with general R&D not happening due to a lack of resources.

the types of things I am thinking of would be: improvement in "hab" systems, such as better radiation shielding, and environmental "sealing" while using less resources would be something they would be very interested in at least simulating then experimenting with.
improved recycling systems both material, and environmental IE water, air, etc.
propulsion and power systems again doing more with less.
weapons for the sake of weapons Naa
armor for the sake of armor? not really, except as mentioned to get more protection from less resources especially in hab and spacecraft hulls.

I would also argue that in most cases they just don't have the resources to really devote stuff to R&D they are more focused on "practical" survival challenges.

[glitterboy2098]

lack of resources would be a legit reason for their tech to not have developed a lot. they didn't start with much in the way or resources and infrastructure, and given the long travel times involved, building all that up would take awhile. so yeah. focused R&D (on drive systems, better life support, etc) would be a thing, but odds are weapons research was slow until the Arkhons arrived, bringing not only a threat not easily dealt with using existing weapons, but also a bunch of variant techbase things for study.

[ShadowLogan]

lack of resources would be a legit reason for their tech to not have developed a lot. they didn't start with much in the way or resources and infrastructure, and given the long travel times involved, building all that up would take awhile. so yeah. focused R&D (on drive systems, better life support, etc) would be a thing, but odds are weapons research was slow until the Arkhons arrived, bringing not only a threat not easily dealt with using existing weapons, but also a bunch of variant techbase things for study.

If anything though the lack of resources should have been a driving force for technology development:
-stronger lighter materials (materials science research IS something they'd be doing in space), since this means for a given propulsion system and a set amount of propellant it could transport more payload or go faster, it also can offer better protection from micrometor strikes
-there should be a strong demand for high energy propulsion systems that would have rendered chemical rockets obsolete (and possibly a few other listed drive types IIRC) since they need them to get to raw materials (Ice, metals, etc) and given trip times using low energy systems (like chemical rockets) it would push for these types of systems
-the lack of resources should also create a push for greater efficiency overall (recycling, power consumption, etc)
-the lack of resources should also see some evolutionary pressures on the inhabitants (I would think)

I'd even say there should be push for weapons technology given:
-the self-made bug problem on Mars (I know it's the result of a mad scientist, but it was connected with a Terraforming operation), if they ever hope to regain Mars they will need to develop a better method to combat them
-the containment of Earth, they do have to keep the inhabitants contained, which means eventually they need to see progress or else they could be outpaced
-random Rift Activity (which they respond to)
-their own feuding
-even before the Arkhons arrived, there is indication that they would have had some contact (maybe not at the same scale as the Arkhons) with aliens responding to Rift activity, and possibly even Earth Containment

[Zer0 Kay]

lack of resources would be a legit reason for their tech to not have developed a lot. they didn't start with much in the way or resources and infrastructure, and given the long travel times involved, building all that up would take awhile. so yeah. focused R&D (on drive systems, better life support, etc) would be a thing, but odds are weapons research was slow until the Arkhons arrived, bringing not only a threat not easily dealt with using existing weapons, but also a bunch of variant techbase things for study.

drive systems, materials, life support ----> Mars colonization---> arcologies, mining, farming, commerce with stations--->much better drive systems, better weapons ----> Jupiter Lunar colonization---> Improved moon colonization--->etc

[glitterboy2098]

when i speak of 'lack of resources and infrastrucutre', i don;t just mean "whoops we're a bit short on iron" i mean that the orbitals start out with very little of the stuff needed to survive.

at the time of the cataclysm, think about it.
you have no space mining, except maybe on the moon in limited amounts.
you have little space based factory capacity, and almost no industrial base.
you have lots of scientists, but they are mostly researchers in astronomy, high energy physics, medical, geophysics, etc.. lab workers more than theorists.
you have limited population over all
you have limited ship numbers, with limited individual capacity.
and it takes you months to get anywhere.

they would need the first century to build up the industrial base they need just to catch up with what they lost when they got cut off from earth. and when your struggling to get mines and refineries and factories built that let you build the tools to make the mines, refineries, and factories you actually need made, your not going to have a lot of time for "hey if we switch to X alloy you can make a railgun do 50% more damage!", it's going to be more "hey, i think i was able to eliminate that complicated gearing from the 3D printer rig design without hindering performance. not having to make so many gears and sprockets inthe workshop just saved us 3 months on the schedule to build the oxygen processor factory!"

[guardiandashi]

@ shadowlogan, I wasn't saying they wouldn't WANT to do lots of R&D to improve materials and efficiencies, I am saying that they may not have been able to spare the resources to DO the R&D to get the improved materials. if you are essentially scraping by with little to no spare resources beyond basic necessities how do you get the "materials budget" to use for experimentation. IE you are using 90+ % of what you have to just keep your people alive, you suspect that IF you could do some research you could free up ~5-10% of the materials but it will cost more than what you have available for the next 10-20 years and likely cost you up to 10% of your population in "avoidable" accidents, how do you justify those expenditures and losses?

[ShadowLogan]

you have no space mining, except maybe on the moon in limited amounts.

This might be a factor, it really depends on how self-sufficient the various outposts where by the time of the Cataclysm. From a cost perspective, IINM its cheaper to bring raw material resources to the stations from the Moon (or farther) than it is to launch them from Earth, especially if you aren't worried about time (afte rall a good deal of the delta-V budget would be consumed launching from Earth's surface just to LEO).

We know there are facilities on the Moon (MiO pg61) "The half dozen lunar mining stations and observation outposts on the surface was all that were severely damaged." We also know there is a facility on Mars for the same purpose that are pre-Flash/Cat (pg38, ATB**) "It had two purposes: to mine the planet for valuable resources, and to try to terraform the surface". As asteroids are easier to get to that Mars from certain view points, comet/asteroid mining would seem to be possible in this time frame

you have little space based factory capacity, and almost no industrial base.

I have to disagree here:
-KLS is stated to have "gone into space to develop a zero gravity (or low gravity) manufacturing plant for the production of Glitter Boys and military weapon systems." (MiO pg67)
-Cyberworks is also said to have gone to the moon with the goal of a "totally self-sufficient, research and robot manufacturing facility." (MiO pg61*), that suggests the Moon base could be at the level or close to it at the time of the Cataclysm
-Freedom station is said to engage in manufacturing/industrial operations (pg24 MiO, ATB section**), and equipment is even known to have been developed here (implied as pre-cat capacity)
-Laika is stated to have a "military and industrial emphasis" (pg26 MiO, ATB), and was an "entry into the race to colonize space in the early 21st century", I think its implied the industrial emphasis dates to this period
-Yuro station has "superior laboratories and industrial plants" (pg27 MiO, ATB), granted these are limited in scope
-Moon Base was the "first to recover and was instrumental in helping the orbital space stations to do the same". (pg61 MiO)

Now some locations are better equipped in some areas than others, but as they co-operated (and still do in some ways) in recovery one locations short comings maybe offset by trade with another using their respective surplus (which is mentioned, Yuro trades with Laika, and Laika trades with the Moon)

you have limited population over all

&@guardiandashi
This is the greatest limiter to what they can do IMHO. However as there are a large number of researchers present, R&D should be easier and a focus as that was a part of their life before the Cataclysm. While they will have efforts devoted to surviving, they will also likely be looking for ways to improve their survival chances which would help get some things researched at higher priority than others.

and it takes you months to get anywhere.

Which is why I said it should encourage development of higher energy and efficient drive systems so that they can either cut the trip time down or increase the return mass or some mix of the two, it also can widen the launch windows to go to the places with the raw materials or the need for said materials. The investment in such research will pay for itself.

*Incidentally Cyberworks technology level on the same page is said to be "unsurpassed by any in the Zone or on Earth", though there are areas within the Zone where they are not the best (shipbuidling for ex).

** "Most general After the Bomb information and history about the space stations pertains to the Rifts environment" (pg57 MiO)

[Zer0 Kay]

when i speak of 'lack of resources and infrastrucutre', i don;t just mean "whoops we're a bit short on iron" i mean that the orbitals start out with very little of the stuff needed to survive.

at the time of the cataclysm, think about it.
you have no space mining, except maybe on the moon in limited amounts.
you have little space based factory capacity, and almost no industrial base.
you have lots of scientists, but they are mostly researchers in astronomy, high energy physics, medical, geophysics, etc.. lab workers more than theorists.
you have limited population over all
you have limited ship numbers, with limited individual capacity.
and it takes you months to get anywhere.

they would need the first century to build up the industrial base they need just to catch up with what they lost when they got cut off from earth. and when your struggling to get mines and refineries and factories built that let you build the tools to make the mines, refineries, and factories you actually need made, your not going to have a lot of time for "hey if we switch to X alloy you can make a railgun do 50% more damage!", it's going to be more "hey, i think i was able to eliminate that complicated gearing from the 3D printer rig design without hindering performance. not having to make so many gears and sprockets inthe workshop just saved us 3 months on the schedule to build the oxygen processor factory!"

AND you probably still have a working data net with all the "lost" technology of Earth.

[Zer0 Kay]

you have no space mining, except maybe on the moon in limited amounts.

This might be a factor, it really depends on how self-sufficient the various outposts where by the time of the Cataclysm. From a cost perspective, IINM its cheaper to bring raw material resources to the stations from the Moon (or farther) than it is to launch them from Earth, especially if you aren't worried about time (afte rall a good deal of the delta-V budget would be consumed launching from Earth's surface just to LEO).

We know there are facilities on the Moon (MiO pg61) "The half dozen lunar mining stations and observation outposts on the surface was all that were severely damaged." We also know there is a facility on Mars for the same purpose that are pre-Flash/Cat (pg38, ATB**) "It had two purposes: to mine the planet for valuable resources, and to try to terraform the surface". As asteroids are easier to get to that Mars from certain view points, comet/asteroid mining would seem to be possible in this time frame

you have little space based factory capacity, and almost no industrial base.

I have to disagree here:
-KLS is stated to have "gone into space to develop a zero gravity (or low gravity) manufacturing plant for the production of Glitter Boys and military weapon systems." (MiO pg67)
-Cyberworks is also said to have gone to the moon with the goal of a "totally self-sufficient, research and robot manufacturing facility." (MiO pg61*), that suggests the Moon base could be at the level or close to it at the time of the Cataclysm
-Freedom station is said to engage in manufacturing/industrial operations (pg24 MiO, ATB section**), and equipment is even known to have been developed here (implied as pre-cat capacity)
-Laika is stated to have a "military and industrial emphasis" (pg26 MiO, ATB), and was an "entry into the race to colonize space in the early 21st century", I think its implied the industrial emphasis dates to this period
-Yuro station has "superior laboratories and industrial plants" (pg27 MiO, ATB), granted these are limited in scope
-Moon Base was the "first to recover and was instrumental in helping the orbital space stations to do the same". (pg61 MiO)

Now some locations are better equipped in some areas than others, but as they co-operated (and still do in some ways) in recovery one locations short comings maybe offset by trade with another using their respective surplus (which is mentioned, Yuro trades with Laika, and Laika trades with the Moon)

you have limited population over all

&@guardiandashi
This is the greatest limiter to what they can do IMHO. However as there are a large number of researchers present, R&D should be easier and a focus as that was a part of their life before the Cataclysm. While they will have efforts devoted to surviving, they will also likely be looking for ways to improve their survival chances which would help get some things researched at higher priority than others.

and it takes you months to get anywhere.

Which is why I said it should encourage development of higher energy and efficient drive systems so that they can either cut the trip time down or increase the return mass or some mix of the two, it also can widen the launch windows to go to the places with the raw materials or the need for said materials. The investment in such research will pay for itself.

*Incidentally Cyberworks technology level on the same page is said to be "unsurpassed by any in the Zone or on Earth", though there are areas within the Zone where they are not the best (shipbuidling for ex).

** "Most general After the Bomb information and history about the space stations pertains to the Rifts environment" (pg57 MiO)

Of course my question is why aren't they all aiding with the bug problem on mars and terraforming so that they can move out of the space stations onto a safer terrestrial body. Even Cyberworks and ARCHIE whatever number should be looking to that instead of trying to stay in hard vacuum.

[gaby]

Maybe Mars is spit-up into different cities-states,that want to keep it for them sleves?

[ShadowLogan]

Of course my question is why aren't they all aiding with the bug problem on mars and terraforming so that they can move out of the space stations onto a safer terrestrial body. Even Cyberworks and ARCHIE whatever number should be looking to that instead of trying to stay in hard vacuum.

It probably comes down to: Is Mars reclamation worth the investment?
A. Water Ice can be acquired from other sources
B. raw materials can be acquired from other sources
C. Ley Lines. How will they interact with a renewed terraforming effort, or even a large scale bug eradication effort
D. The stations have splintered in unity, though when the bug problem originally started they had not yet splintered into nation-states.
E. they don't need to Terraform Mars, they could have relocated the stations inhabitants to not just Mars, but also the Moon (which is closer). But it also means that they (or their descendants) will have to write-off returning to Earth (which might be a subconscious or learned thing).
F. do they have the manpower to deal with the bug problem, granted numbers could be shored up with automated systems or other blanket systems (bombardment, bio-weapon, chemical weapon, etc)
G. Terraforming will take centuries to complete, they may not be thinking in the long term (granted Ley Line activity might help shorten this)

And this doesn't even consider the Arkhons who have appeared and taken over Mars recently.

[glitterboy2098]

had the Arkhon's not arrived, it is possible they would have. Mars was already being terraformed (this is how the bug problem got started), and it is liekly that the Arkhons just screwed up efforts to deal with the bugs.

My own take on the setting though would be to rewrite the Bugs to be a bit more unique.. and to actually be the terraforming effort. that they are basically biological tools meant to process the soil, cultivate algae and moss, and generally form a self sustaining ecosystem that gradually terraforms the planet as a byproduct. created after the technological effort floundered with the loss of earth. thus explaining why the Orbitals aren't all that interested in 'dealing with' the bugs prior to the arkhons arriving.

[ShadowLogan]

I wonder if in an official revision/revisit to MiO it might be better to recton the human created genetically engineered Bugs into invading Xiticix (RMB, WB23) or Star Hive (DB2). It was a full 60 years after the Ley Lines flared up before the GEBs where created (going by the ATB timeline), AND the Colony is located in a Ley Line Triangle (ala Bermuda Triangle on Earth, one of two locations on Mars). Ley Lines are also associated with Rift activity.

We know the Xiticix engage in terraforming. I don't think Star Hives have been fleshed out more since DB2 (so could have the Star Hive crash on the planet, or just a force from a Star Hive that sets up shop).

[glitterboy2098]

i like the idea of the Martian Bugs being an artificially created ecosystem and terraforming control system because it opens up more options for gameplay. if the Bugs are just the local ecosystem and not just killer monsters, for example, it allows for D-bee tribes (and perhaps dissident orbitals) to have settled there, creating a bit of a Barsoom type element, with the Arkhons acting as almost as if the Martians of HG wells were present as well. the orbital's visits would give it an almost Bradbury element as well, hitting the martian scifi trifecta quite neatly. (the only way to improve on that would be to find a way to sneak some Heinlein type elements in.. but that would be much trickier to grok in combination.)

[Sambot]

In regards to advancement, I believe the stations would have needed to rebuild and relearn just like Earth. Just a quick read of the intro says that there was lots of damage and that 50% of the surviving population died after the storms ended from illness and other things. That is a lot of know how lost that would need to be relearned. Plus anything that was lost during the storms. And from the quick read some damage still hasn't been fully repaired with parts of stations on emergency power. Those things are going to inhibit R&D a bit and production even more.

Having said all that, R&D and production have taken place over the last 150 years. New Robots and Power Armor and other things have been introduced. But even with that I don't think we'll see entire armies of new units the way was have for the CS and NGR and others. The stations and their populations are just too small for that. Plus except for the moon they all have to go get their raw materials. That would limit their production even more.

So while I can see there being advancements I don't see them being as wide spread as they would be on Earth. I'd also see them being more expensive than other places like Phase World. I also see them as being kept for the station's on militaries and only available to the wealthiest Freebooter. The others are going to be using older technology.

At least that's how I picture things.

[Blue_Lion]

Since you can't be bothered to read the books, here this is just some from Dimension book 6
pg17
A Magic Nebula can be either a dark or luminous nebula, but within it lays a series of ley lines and nexuses.

pg 20
5. Ley line storms. Networks of ley lines are known to crisscross through expanses, and with ley lines come the chance of
running into a ley line storm or even an enormous dimensional Rift!

pg 21
The travelers come upon a series of cosmic ley lines. They appear and disappear at random and will cover an
area that takes 1D4 days to cross. For every 1D6+6 hours in this area there is a 01-45% chance of a ley line storm.

pg 64
It seems that the largest stars are on the outer edge are not stars but rather, giant Rifts surging with magical energy. The four points seem to form a three dimensional triangle! Surging along the ley lines are immense cosmic storms.

pg 70
The Elemental Lands are a collapsed orange star that formed a plasma field. Within the plasma field are a series of ley lines that intersect to form some rather large nexus points.

pg 71
The Harkon Rift

two tidbits from Dimension book 5
pg 21
entire planetary deaths could send massive P.P.E. surges into the galactic nethersphere, where they might very well channel into the various ley lines connecting certain stars together.

pg 21
preventing evildoers and villains from taking advantage of this turbulent environment, to monitoring the galaxy’s ley line network


I do not have to furnish any information to you regarding something YOU and yourself alone presented as fact.
I merely presented the fact there are ley lines in space and i do believe i have now furnished far more references than should be needed for that as well.

Okay so there are a few locations that have Ley Lines....
....in fact they seem to be so rare that they need to be called out as being present....
.....And of course there is the little fact that as I said the Elves were able to map every Ley Line in the Galaxy in a matter of years.

So yeah....That does not sound like any sort of interconnected system that connects every star.....


Also I believe you may be unaware of how debate works. There is something called "Citing ones sources" it means that when some one says "prove your claim" that you be able to, well, prove your claim.
I.e. if you want to make the affirmative claim that there are ley lines in every system, and that they are so common as to be able to influence planets (even though they are listed as being weaker then planetary lines, not stronger) then it is YOUR burden of proof to provide evidence to back up your claim. It is not my job to sift through several dozen books looking for your evidence for you.
This is why, when you ask me to back up my claim I went and got a quote from a book that backs up my claim.
I didn't try to ridicule or insult the other person (Ad Hominem attacks prove nothing) nor did I tell you "its in there go find it yourself."

If I recall they do say every planet has X number Langer points that are nexus points in space but only Y are usable. It is under the UWW space station in fleets.
To me that does imply that every planet is connected to a larger network.

They did say cosmic networks of ley lines that take 1d4 days to cross are rare and form at random. Makes me wonder how they can have an accurate map of every ley line if they change or form at random. The star elves may have a map of the space ley line network but it can not be every line as it says networks can form and go away in space. Perhaps what they have are the persistant ley lines that can be used for travel, but the network as a whole can change.

Depending on how they mapped them out a interconnected network could be easier to map. If they used a sensor that could track a ley lines length and all lines attached to it, a interconnected network would be easier to map than a broken series of ley lines that have nexus at every planet as that requires visiting every planet.

[eliakon]

Since you can't be bothered to read the books, here this is just some from Dimension book 6
pg17
A Magic Nebula can be either a dark or luminous nebula, but within it lays a series of ley lines and nexuses.

pg 20
5. Ley line storms. Networks of ley lines are known to crisscross through expanses, and with ley lines come the chance of
running into a ley line storm or even an enormous dimensional Rift!

pg 21
The travelers come upon a series of cosmic ley lines. They appear and disappear at random and will cover an
area that takes 1D4 days to cross. For every 1D6+6 hours in this area there is a 01-45% chance of a ley line storm.

pg 64
It seems that the largest stars are on the outer edge are not stars but rather, giant Rifts surging with magical energy. The four points seem to form a three dimensional triangle! Surging along the ley lines are immense cosmic storms.

pg 70
The Elemental Lands are a collapsed orange star that formed a plasma field. Within the plasma field are a series of ley lines that intersect to form some rather large nexus points.

pg 71
The Harkon Rift

two tidbits from Dimension book 5
pg 21
entire planetary deaths could send massive P.P.E. surges into the galactic nethersphere, where they might very well channel into the various ley lines connecting certain stars together.

pg 21
preventing evildoers and villains from taking advantage of this turbulent environment, to monitoring the galaxy’s ley line network


I do not have to furnish any information to you regarding something YOU and yourself alone presented as fact.
I merely presented the fact there are ley lines in space and i do believe i have now furnished far more references than should be needed for that as well.

Okay so there are a few locations that have Ley Lines....
....in fact they seem to be so rare that they need to be called out as being present....
.....And of course there is the little fact that as I said the Elves were able to map every Ley Line in the Galaxy in a matter of years.

So yeah....That does not sound like any sort of interconnected system that connects every star.....


Also I believe you may be unaware of how debate works. There is something called "Citing ones sources" it means that when some one says "prove your claim" that you be able to, well, prove your claim.
I.e. if you want to make the affirmative claim that there are ley lines in every system, and that they are so common as to be able to influence planets (even though they are listed as being weaker then planetary lines, not stronger) then it is YOUR burden of proof to provide evidence to back up your claim. It is not my job to sift through several dozen books looking for your evidence for you.
This is why, when you ask me to back up my claim I went and got a quote from a book that backs up my claim.
I didn't try to ridicule or insult the other person (Ad Hominem attacks prove nothing) nor did I tell you "its in there go find it yourself."

If I recall they do say every planet has X number Langer points that are nexus points in space but only Y are usable. It is under the UWW space station in fleets.
To me that does imply that every planet is connected to a larger network.

They did say cosmic networks of ley lines that take 1d4 days to cross are rare and form at random. Makes me wonder how they can have an accurate map of every ley line if they change or form at random. The star elves may have a map of the space ley line network but it can not be every line as it says networks can form and go away in space. Perhaps what they have are the persistant ley lines that can be used for travel, but the network as a whole can change.

Depending on how they mapped them out a interconnected network could be easier to map. If they used a sensor that could track a ley lines length and all lines attached to it, a interconnected network would be easier to map than a broken series of ley lines that have nexus at every planet as that requires visiting every planet.

Yes we know there are Lagrange points.
But there is literally nothing in any book anywhere saying that they are all connected.
And since we KNOW from earth, and Palladium Fantasy, AND QUITE LITTERALLY EVERY OTHER LEY LINE MAP IN EXISTANCE that you can have multiple unconnected line systems on one planet then it seems a HUGE leap to claim that THESE ley lines, unlike (again I point out) EVERY OTHER LINE SYSTEM IN EXISTANCE are all interconnected.
That sort of radical change to the system is going to need some affirmative proof and not just a random claim of "well it sounds good make it so"
Because you are LITERALLY changing the canon on ley-lines there.

Let me make a more clear example
We know there is a Nexus in Australia
We Know there is a Nexus in Mexico City
We Know there is a Nexus in Tokyo
We Know there is a Nexus in old China

But we know that they are all not connected
Why?
Because the Ley line map of Australia, Mexico, Japan, England etc... don't show them as being connected to others.
Someone coming along and saying "No there are really ley lines connecting all of these nexi. But they are not actually shown on ANY of the maps and their influence is not taken into account and no one uses them" is going to have to provide proof of their claim. The burden is not on the rest of us to show that the written maps are actually accurate.

[Shark_Force]

In regards to advancement, I believe the stations would have needed to rebuild and relearn just like Earth. Just a quick read of the intro says that there was lots of damage and that 50% of the surviving population died after the storms ended from illness and other things. That is a lot of know how lost that would need to be relearned. Plus anything that was lost during the storms. And from the quick read some damage still hasn't been fully repaired with parts of stations on emergency power. Those things are going to inhibit R&D a bit and production even more.

Having said all that, R&D and production have taken place over the last 150 years. New Robots and Power Armor and other things have been introduced. But even with that I don't think we'll see entire armies of new units the way was have for the CS and NGR and others. The stations and their populations are just too small for that. Plus except for the moon they all have to go get their raw materials. That would limit their production even more.

So while I can see there being advancements I don't see them being as wide spread as they would be on Earth. I'd also see them being more expensive than other places like Phase World. I also see them as being kept for the station's on militaries and only available to the wealthiest Freebooter. The others are going to be using older technology.

At least that's how I picture things.

i would expect the stations to lose a lot less than elsewhere, mostly because if you're worth the expense of launching into space in the first place, you're probably highly educated in some form or another, and thus more redundancy of knowledge.

[Sambot]

i would expect the stations to lose a lot less than elsewhere, mostly because if you're worth the expense of launching into space in the first place, you're probably highly educated in some form or another, and thus more redundancy of knowledge.

I'm still looking for how many were killed during the initial storms with the Rifts happening, and killer satellites going off. I'm guessing a lot. Then after all that 50% of the survivors died within 6 months. That is a lot of knowledge lost. Then there's those that tried to go back to Earth. And that doesn't take into account what was lost and damaged during the storms. Even if a project had nothing lost there might not be anyone around left to build it. Or it could take years to make do to the lack of trained people. Building it could also take away from more needed projects. So why work on a new laser or FTL engine when other projects, like power generation, oxygen generation, hydroponics production, etc take greater priority?

And it isn't like there haven't been improvements. The moon has had a lot. They just haven't improved what a lot of people outside the universe would want improved. In universe the things that need improving get improved first.

[eliakon]

i would expect the stations to lose a lot less than elsewhere, mostly because if you're worth the expense of launching into space in the first place, you're probably highly educated in some form or another, and thus more redundancy of knowledge.

I'm still looking for how many were killed during the initial storms with the Rifts happening, and killer satellites going off. I'm guessing a lot. Then after all that 50% of the survivors died within 6 months. That is a lot of knowledge lost. Then there's those that tried to go back to Earth. And that doesn't take into account what was lost and damaged during the storms. Even if a project had nothing lost there might not be anyone around left to build it. Or it could take years to make do to the lack of trained people. Building it could also take away from more needed projects. So why work on a new laser or FTL engine when other projects, like power generation, oxygen generation, hydroponics production, etc take greater priority?

And it isn't like there haven't been improvements. The moon has had a lot. They just haven't improved what a lot of people outside the universe would want improved. In universe the things that need improving get improved first.

And remember...
...a team of highly trained experts studying gravity theory in the hopes of cracking FTL might have two or three doctorates each...
...but that doesn't mean that they have the right doctorates for the job.
If your trying to build a fabricator to built the basic parts for the life support systems then a bunch of eggheads in exotic branches of advanced theoretical physics are not going to be much help.

[Killer Cyborg]

I had opportunity once to talk to Kevin about ley lines, and he said that they're not connected as a rule.
The artwork in the RMB that shows the ley lines wrapping around the Earth was included because it's cool, even though it's inaccurate.
The maps are accurate, and ley lines terminate.

[eliakon]

I had opportunity once to talk to Kevin about ley lines, and he said that they're not connected as a rule.
The artwork in the RMB that shows the ley lines wrapping around the Earth was included because it's cool, even though it's inaccurate.
The maps are accurate, and ley lines terminate.

^This^ ^So much this^

Maps > Art

[glitterboy2098]

i would expect the stations to lose a lot less than elsewhere, mostly because if you're worth the expense of launching into space in the first place, you're probably highly educated in some form or another, and thus more redundancy of knowledge.

I'm still looking for how many were killed during the initial storms with the Rifts happening, and killer satellites going off. I'm guessing a lot. Then after all that 50% of the survivors died within 6 months. That is a lot of knowledge lost. Then there's those that tried to go back to Earth. And that doesn't take into account what was lost and damaged during the storms. Even if a project had nothing lost there might not be anyone around left to build it. Or it could take years to make do to the lack of trained people. Building it could also take away from more needed projects. So why work on a new laser or FTL engine when other projects, like power generation, oxygen generation, hydroponics production, etc take greater priority?

And it isn't like there haven't been improvements. The moon has had a lot. They just haven't improved what a lot of people outside the universe would want improved. In universe the things that need improving get improved first.

Chaos Earth Pg 14 doesn't describe the killer sats going off.. instead it describes massive solar storms and radiation, causing space station systems to crash, 32% of the sattelites going offline, and 5% of the CAN moonbase to die.

given that the moonbase is underground, in one of the best places to survive solar storms (Flares and Coronal Mass Ejections), the fact they lost 5% of their population means that yeah, the stations probably lost a lot more, since they'd have much less shielding than the moon bases dozens or hundreds of meters of regolith, and their lifesupport failing and the like would just compound the issue. you'd get radiation poisoning, as well as the lifesupport related stuff.

[Sambot]

And remember...
...a team of highly trained experts studying gravity theory in the hopes of cracking FTL might have two or three doctorates each...
...but that doesn't mean that they have the right doctorates for the job.
If your trying to build a fabricator to built the basic parts for the life support systems then a bunch of eggheads in exotic branches of advanced theoretical physics are not going to be much help.

Exactly!

4 doesn't describe the killer sats going off.. instead it describes massive solar storms and radiation, causing space station systems to crash, 32% of the sattelites going offline, and 5% of the CAN moonbase to die.

given that the moonbase is underground, in one of the best places to survive solar storms (Flares and Coronal Mass Ejections), the fact they lost 5% of their population means that yeah, the stations probably lost a lot more, since they'd have much less shielding than the moon bases dozens or hundreds of meters of regolith, and their lifesupport failing and the like would just compound the issue. you'd get radiation poisoning, as well as the lifesupport related stuff.

32% going offline leaves 68% still functioning. Those functioning satellites could do what Mutants in Orbit page 57 says. That the military satellites interpreted what was going on as an attack and responded as programed attacking targets in space and on the surface. It also says that the satellites created the debris ring and that most killer satellites ended up destroying themselves.

And while the moon base lost 5% of the population during the disaster (Thank you for the number) Chaos Earth pg 15 says that after thousands took their lives in pain and despair. Mutants in Orbit pg 57 says that 20% of the surviving orbital population killed themselves that night and that another 10% died to apathy and that suicide was a daily occurrence. That's 30% of the post disaster population. Not including the 20% who died of injury and radiation. I don't see anything in either book that contradicts each other. Lots of people died during and after the disaster. Then the stations slowly rebuilt with the moon base was better off do to their location.

[glitterboy2098]

never meant to imply they contradicted, just to bring attention to it. it is amazing how many people forget about Chaos Earth when discussing the details of the great cataclysm.

and while your right the Orbital stuff doesn't conflict, there is minor differences for the ground stuff (mostly regarding the size and destruction level of the tidal waves, the number of severity of volcanic eruptions, etc), though since the RUE and RMB details are presented as (mostly) an in character bit by Erin Tarn or someone like her, and the CE one is presented by straight description, when the two clash outright i'd be inclined to go with CE's take, since the RMB/RUE one is from a source three centuries later, based on mostly legends/stories and a few preserved local records.. hyperbole and exaggeration would definitely be a factor in the RMB/RUE descriptions, unlike the CE one.

[eliakon]

And remember...
...a team of highly trained experts studying gravity theory in the hopes of cracking FTL might have two or three doctorates each...
...but that doesn't mean that they have the right doctorates for the job.
If your trying to build a fabricator to built the basic parts for the life support systems then a bunch of eggheads in exotic branches of advanced theoretical physics are not going to be much help.

Exactly!

4 doesn't describe the killer sats going off.. instead it describes massive solar storms and radiation, causing space station systems to crash, 32% of the sattelites going offline, and 5% of the CAN moonbase to die.

given that the moonbase is underground, in one of the best places to survive solar storms (Flares and Coronal Mass Ejections), the fact they lost 5% of their population means that yeah, the stations probably lost a lot more, since they'd have much less shielding than the moon bases dozens or hundreds of meters of regolith, and their lifesupport failing and the like would just compound the issue. you'd get radiation poisoning, as well as the lifesupport related stuff.

32% going offline leaves 68% still functioning. Those functioning satellites could do what Mutants in Orbit page 57 says. That the military satellites interpreted what was going on as an attack and responded as programed attacking targets in space and on the surface. It also says that the satellites created the debris ring and that most killer satellites ended up destroying themselves.

And while the moon base lost 5% of the population during the disaster (Thank you for the number) Chaos Earth pg 15 says that after thousands took their lives in pain and despair. Mutants in Orbit pg 57 says that 20% of the surviving orbital population killed themselves that night and that another 10% died to apathy and that suicide was a daily occurrence. That's 30% of the post disaster population. Not including the 20% who died of injury and radiation. I don't see anything in either book that contradicts each other. Lots of people died during and after the disaster. Then the stations slowly rebuilt with the moon base was better off do to their location.

And don't forget that they lost the Shino-Japanese station.
The largest station in orbit
They had four stations (Laika, Euro, Freedom and Sino) and they lost the largest one!
That is better than 25% casualties right there.
so lets just say that there were 100 people in orbit (absurd I know, but it makes a wonderful 100% so...)
The station goes your down to something like 70
then the stations lose say 20%?
Now your down to 56
After the suicides that number is down to something like 39.2

That would mean that your looking at somewhere around what? 40% AT BEST of original population surviving.
A population that was never meant to be self sustaining in the first place
You just lost 60% of everyone... 60% of your engineers, 60% of your mechanics...
...and some of your people are tourists.
And remember that there is a sizeable mutant animal population, a population that there is NO evidence of being treated as citizens before the CotR and that thus were utterly unlikely to be trained as anything but manual labor and experiment fodder. Which further dilutes your pool of experts and trained personnel.

And of course there is the problem that technology isn't universally compatible. You have multiple hostile countries...
...there is no WAY that the tech on Laika station was originally compatible with the stuff on Freedom station for example.
So in addition to rebuilding you are also having to cobble up a new joint standard. As you go. On live operating gear that you can't turn off with out killing everyone.

[gaby]

I will love it if They can make OCC with special skills and 101 Adventure ideas.

[Zer0 Kay]

Since you can't be bothered to read the books, here this is just some from Dimension book 6
pg17
A Magic Nebula can be either a dark or luminous nebula, but within it lays a series of ley lines and nexuses.

pg 20
5. Ley line storms. Networks of ley lines are known to crisscross through expanses, and with ley lines come the chance of
running into a ley line storm or even an enormous dimensional Rift!

pg 21
The travelers come upon a series of cosmic ley lines. They appear and disappear at random and will cover an
area that takes 1D4 days to cross. For every 1D6+6 hours in this area there is a 01-45% chance of a ley line storm.

pg 64
It seems that the largest stars are on the outer edge are not stars but rather, giant Rifts surging with magical energy. The four points seem to form a three dimensional triangle! Surging along the ley lines are immense cosmic storms.

pg 70
The Elemental Lands are a collapsed orange star that formed a plasma field. Within the plasma field are a series of ley lines that intersect to form some rather large nexus points.

pg 71
The Harkon Rift

two tidbits from Dimension book 5
pg 21
entire planetary deaths could send massive P.P.E. surges into the galactic nethersphere, where they might very well channel into the various ley lines connecting certain stars together.

pg 21
preventing evildoers and villains from taking advantage of this turbulent environment, to monitoring the galaxy’s ley line network


I do not have to furnish any information to you regarding something YOU and yourself alone presented as fact.
I merely presented the fact there are ley lines in space and i do believe i have now furnished far more references than should be needed for that as well.

Okay so there are a few locations that have Ley Lines....
....in fact they seem to be so rare that they need to be called out as being present....
.....And of course there is the little fact that as I said the Elves were able to map every Ley Line in the Galaxy in a matter of years.

So yeah....That does not sound like any sort of interconnected system that connects every star.....


Also I believe you may be unaware of how debate works. There is something called "Citing ones sources" it means that when some one says "prove your claim" that you be able to, well, prove your claim.
I.e. if you want to make the affirmative claim that there are ley lines in every system, and that they are so common as to be able to influence planets (even though they are listed as being weaker then planetary lines, not stronger) then it is YOUR burden of proof to provide evidence to back up your claim. It is not my job to sift through several dozen books looking for your evidence for you.
This is why, when you ask me to back up my claim I went and got a quote from a book that backs up my claim.
I didn't try to ridicule or insult the other person (Ad Hominem attacks prove nothing) nor did I tell you "its in there go find it yourself."

If I recall they do say every planet has X number Langer points that are nexus points in space but only Y are usable. It is under the UWW space station in fleets.
To me that does imply that every planet is connected to a larger network.

They did say cosmic networks of ley lines that take 1d4 days to cross are rare and form at random. Makes me wonder how they can have an accurate map of every ley line if they change or form at random. The star elves may have a map of the space ley line network but it can not be every line as it says networks can form and go away in space. Perhaps what they have are the persistant ley lines that can be used for travel, but the network as a whole can change.

Depending on how they mapped them out a interconnected network could be easier to map. If they used a sensor that could track a ley lines length and all lines attached to it, a interconnected network would be easier to map than a broken series of ley lines that have nexus at every planet as that requires visiting every planet.

Five lagrange points between any two massive stellar bodies only L4 and L5 are stable. Stating that lagrange points show a connection and thereby imply a network is saying that gravity is a leyline. That be like saying that the gauss field of the Earth produces leylines as both magnetism and gravity are forces. Whats next? High Voltage Powerlines constructed by humans made leylines that exist even after the powerlines and applied electrical force went away?

As for the mapping all leylines and the leylines that form and dissapear. Maybe they are in flux and always appear there but based on weird things like when planet x in galaxy 549 is in the house of capricorn or when aligned with planet e in galaxy 34w when in the house of cancer. Just because we as gamers and the characters will never see that leyline again doesn't mean that it isn't a constant there every 211 years.