Sea Titans

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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Tor »

keir451 wrote:It makes it easier to hide BECAUSE some of them are supernatural, Dog Boys and Psi-stalkers aren’t infallible and just because a Sea Titan is MDC doesn’t mean they aren’t wearing body armor or power armor.

Is BA/PA supposed to block scents or something? Maybe with mundane odours but I figure it didn't work for mag/psi energy. RUEp145 gives a % for psi-hounds to identify a specific type/race of supernatural being. That probably has to mesh up with experience/lore at some point but likely means they'd know a human-looking Sea Titan is about, even if they don't specifically know which armored humanoid it is. RUEp146 goes on to explain how they can locate invisible beings and possessed people so one gets the impression they're pretty good at pinpointing smells in a crowd.

keir451 wrote:Also the vast majority of humans in Rifts Earth wouldn’t be “shagging a dragon” and would stay the hell away from them on principal (dragons being scary monsters and all).

The vast majority of humans in Rifts Earth would probably be unable to discern a dragon morphed into human form. Avoiding quick hookups could deter the risk a bit since there's duration limits and if lore about 'so many hours a day' got around, people wanting to protect themselves might want to go on an all-day date with someone (perhaps a 20 hour pre-rifts movie marathon) to weed out the non-Chaing-ku hatchlings.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by keir451 »

Tor wrote:Is BA/PA supposed to block scents or something? Maybe with mundane odours but I figure it didn't work for mag/psi energy. RUEp145 gives a % for psi-hounds to identify a specific type/race of supernatural being.

Considering that both BA/PA are environmentally sealed, I ask "What scents?". Environmentally sealed means that the outside environment can't get in and the inside environment is separate from the outside. So no scents.
The Psi-Hounds percentile is, indeed, based off of training and experience, as just like their normal counterparts, they have to have encountered said scent at some point in time to be able to recognize it. And, actually PA CAN block magic and psionics, it's written in the book that PA with main body MDC above a certain point blocks them. Also since roughly 15% of Sea Titans have left the service and not all of those Sea Titans are roving the Earth where Dog Boys and Psi-Stalkers exist, as well as generally being smart enough to stay out of CS territory unless they are on assignment from Fleet Command, or working in that area with a mercenary company. I'd also guess that the New Navy may know of ways to block or mess with the scenting abilities of dogs and Dog Boys. That, and, despite the large amount of territory the CS claims they CANNOT patrol every square inch of it, and despite the sheer number of Dog Boys and Psi-stalkers in the CS military the chances of them actually encountering them would be rather rare, i.e. up to the GM.

Tor wrote:The vast majority of humans in Rifts Earth would probably be unable to discern a dragon morphed into human form. Avoiding quick hookups could deter the risk a bit since there's duration limits and if lore about 'so many hours a day' got around, people wanting to protect themselves might want to go on an all-day date with someone (perhaps a 20 hour pre-rifts movie marathon) to weed out the non-Chaing-ku hatchlings.

The vast majority of humans on Rifts Earth are scared spit less of ANYTHING supernatural and, with relatively rare exceptions, most dragons are probably not interested in "shagging" humans. The "average human" in Rifts that wants to protect themselves from the supernatural is NOT overly concerned with ferreting out supposed dragons via "all day dates".

In the end I'm not denying that Sea Titans can be discovered or that some of them could screw up and knock up a girl somewhere (or if female, get knocked up), just that they don't go around "dipping their wick" at the drop of a proverbial hat. The Sea Titans in and outside of the New Navy are well educated, well trained, and well disciplined and, above all, are LOYAL to their people and would not do something that might jeopardize their friends, family and shipmates.
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Re: Sea Titans

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As much as I would like the idea of environmentally sealed armor protecting mages and supernatural beings from Psi-Stalker and Psi-Hound sensing, it seems like a controversial idea to introduce, probably worth proposing that claim on its own.

Even though I'm not sure I agree with you, I'd be willing to play devil's advocate although I'll lend you the opportunity to do so first if you wish.

Like is the psychic scent carried on the air... are mages only vulnerable to the CS because they tend to wear armor more conductive to spellcasting?

most dragons are probably not interested in "shagging" humans.
Source? Not to say humans in particular but there's a universality to the PB attribute and I think most are like Carlotta and would enjoy it.

The "average human" in Rifts that wants to protect themselves from the supernatural is NOT overly concerned with ferreting out supposed dragons via "all day dates".
Until their older brother gets eaten by one who used an invitation to a private nookie session to lure her away and eat her.

they don't go around "dipping their wick" at the drop of a proverbial hat. The Sea Titans in and outside of the New Navy are well educated, well trained, and well disciplined and, above all, are LOYAL to their people and would not do something that might jeopardize their friends, family and shipmates.

I don't see how it would jeapordize them, if anything spreading MDC humans around helps to secure humanity by creating a chilling effect around assaulting them.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by keir451 »

Tor wrote:As much as I would like the idea of environmentally sealed armor protecting mages and supernatural beings from Psi-Stalker and Psi-Hound sensing, it seems like a controversial idea to introduce, probably worth proposing that claim on its own.

Even though I'm not sure I agree with you, I'd be willing to play devil's advocate although I'll lend you the opportunity to do so first if you wish.

Like is the psychic scent carried on the air... are mages only vulnerable to the CS because they tend to wear armor more conductive to spellcasting?

Tough question, I appreciate your willingness to play along though. I guess the Psi-hounds and Psi-Stalkers use some form of ESP (yeah, I know psionics ARE ESP) to detect/recognize a supernatural being. The frequency of contact means that the psychic "scent" is more easily recognized. As far as magic, well it is stated in the book that most body armors interfere with magic and spell casting so I figure that it might also disrupt the "magic emanations" that define one as supernatural. Admittedly it's handwavium, at its purest, but it's the best I've got. ;)
Tor wrote:Source? Not to say humans in particular but there's a universality to the PB attribute and I think most are like Carlotta and would enjoy it.

My interpretation of Carlotta the White's description is that she's a bit of an aberration among dragons, as while dragons do interact with humans and other beings, they generally seem to have an air of not all humans are worth talking to. I'd figure much of it stems from the fact that dragons will inevitably outlive the vast majority of humans/beings they encounter. So the number of dragons that actively seek to have sexual relations with fragile, short lived humans would be exceedingly small. Who knows what a dragon finds attractive, I figure that their mind set is reptilian based and thus they don't see beauty the same way as humans do. To them such a thing would be a 'curiosity', at best, and wouldn't last long, assuming they're attracted in the first place.

Tor wrote:Until their older brother gets eaten by one who used an invitation to a private nookie session to lure her away and eat her.

I think you meant "him" since you're referring to an older brother, but again I really don't see that many dragons going to that length to dispose of a human as they're more than powerful enough to not need trickery. But, in those instances where a demon or succubus or vampire does lure someone out, the average person runs screaming in the other direction. The person who runs towards danger is something of an aberration even among humans, which leads them either to the CS Army, becoming a Juicer or becoming a cyborg so as to enact their revenge.

Tor wrote:I don't see how it would jeopardize them, if anything spreading MDC humans around helps to secure humanity by creating a chilling effect around assaulting them.
.
It would jeopardize them in the way that, as I said before, the average person in Rifts is scared of SN creatures and would not react well to the idea that their seemingly normal next door neighbor is a SN monster. That leads to them hiring mercs to eliminate them or calling in the CS to do the same. Secondly, it jeopardizes them because if Doctor Bradford learned of the existence of a Sea Titan through his network of spies, he'd do anything he could to get his hands on a sample of DNA so he could test it, which would show him that that there are MORE of them out there and he'd use that info to turn the CS onto them in the form of an actual witch hunt just so he could have the Emperor distracted long enough so he could perform more experiments on people. The CS, recognizing this as a substantial threat, would track down the Sea Titans to their origin and apply all their considerable power to eliminating them and the New Navy, which would then put the CS in possession of some of the most advanced underwater military and civilian technology on the face of Rifts Earth and make them a nearly unstoppable power on the oceans. As all this is happening Bradford is quietly creating Sea Titan Super soldiers and possibly even adding the Sea Titan genome to the CS genepool, thus making the CS the most powerful force on land as well.
Thirdly; Even if there are more of them around it doesn't necessarily make a place safer as there are still plenty of big ugly baddies that can kill a Sea Titan in one shot and they would take the presence of such people as a challenge, not a warning.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Tor »

I'd figure much of it stems from the fact that dragons will inevitably outlive the vast majority of humans/beings they encounter. So the number of dragons that actively seek to have sexual relations with fragile, short lived humans would be exceedingly small.

If dragons can hold an attitude of humans not being worth a conversation then why would they care if they would outlive them? A lot of creatures can treat relationships as disposable for a momentary thrill. Dragons might be a lot like Zeus and do it for kicks and then fly off. Ones who grow to care about their humans might seek forms of life extension for them.

I think you meant "him" since you're referring to an older brother
Yeah I switched genders halfway through :)

I really don't see that many dragons going to that length to dispose of a human as they're more than powerful enough to not need trickery.
That depends on the community. You never know what kind of MD explosives might be around if you attack an entire community openly. Plus seducing them first might alter the taste of the meat.

in those instances where a demon or succubus or vampire does lure someone out, the average person runs screaming in the other direction.

Only if they are able to, once the illusion is revealed. These are other good examples of supernatural shapeshifters, where sensing someone is a supernatural being, no matter how normal they look, should have people on guard and not wanting to risk fraternizing with them. It only builds the case against Sea Titans to add other more sinister examples than dragons :)

It would jeopardize them in the way that, as I said before, the average person in Rifts is scared of SN creatures and would not react well to the idea that their seemingly normal next door neighbor is a SN monster.

This is already reality. Compared to the already present alternatives, Sea Titans are not that big of a worry. We're just injecting supernatural creatures who happen to be humans with human instincts into the mix of evil human-gobblers.

if Doctor Bradford learned of the existence of a Sea Titan through his network of spies, he'd do anything he could to get his hands on a sample of DNA so he could test it, which would show him that that there are MORE of them out there and he'd use that info to turn the CS onto them in the form of an actual witch hunt just so he could have the Emperor distracted long enough so he could perform more experiments on people.

Even if the CS learned of them, pretty sure they have other priorities. The Ticonderoga is not the only boat on water full of supernatural creatures. Considering they help the NGR and battle things like Horune/Naut'Yll/Splugorth the CS would recognize it's better to leave them alone for now.

all this is happening Bradford is quietly creating Sea Titan Super soldiers and possibly even adding the Sea Titan genome to the CS genepool, thus making the CS the most powerful force on land as well.

I don't see a problem with this, and I don't think Nemo would either. In fact, if Bradford did this, it would solve the primary problem impeding CS/New Navy relations. I don't think Nemo dislikes Karl Prosek as much as you might think.

If the CS was composed of Sea Titans instead of SDC humans, while that might scare you because of how strong it would make them, it would also make the humans feel a lot less scared, and that's a good thing for D-Bees.

Sea Titans don't have as much to fear from D-Bees, they don't have to be as brutal with them or with magic. Magic and monsters become less dangerous to them. They'll still be paranoid about protecting their SDC kids but less so with the adults.

Longer-lived humans will have more time to acquire wisdom, and be less prejudiced against other longer-lived races since there wouldn't be jealousy.

There's less incentive to genocide dragons for fear of them ripping you in half in a single swipe if they are no longer able to do that. In fact you'd probably start pitying a lot of races for being weaker than you, opening the door to sympathy.

The CS are not inherent human supremist D-Bee haters, they have rational precautions which would lessen, along with their hatred, if they were less threatened.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by eliakon »

I am sensing this turning into a case of "well I think that something might be this way so that counters the way that you think it might be"

Also known as Nuhhh uhhh.
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Re: Sea Titans

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PB attributes ability to charm crosses species until I'm specifically told otherwise. =/
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Re: Sea Titans

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Tor wrote:PB attributes ability to charm crosses species until I'm specifically told otherwise. =/

Its not mind control either.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Tor »

Nope. But anyway, dragon wanting to copulate or not doesn't matter, they like to do other things to humans like eat them or rob them or torture them too, all things they could use their morphing beauty to lure humans away from town for fun for.

This is why humans in Rifts Earth who knew about shapechangers would be resistant to fast hookups if they could not sense supernatural beings, and be super against hooking up with supernatural beings until they knew them well. That's what would hold back Sea Titans.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by keir451 »

eliakon wrote:I am sensing this turning into a case of "well I think that something might be this way so that counters the way that you think it might be"

Also known as Nuhhh uhhh.

:lol: Yeah I'm trying to avoid that. It is said in a couple of places what Body Armor does and does not block but I cannot recall what and where, and I'm not that invested in the discussion to go and look it up. ;)
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Tor »

I do have a sneaking suspicion that there might be something somewhere about armor and sensing and stuff... blah.

On the issue of what dragons might do though, D&Gp9:
enjoy associating with other beings, particularly humans
..
develop their sense of ethic, loves, likes and dislikes from their association with other, nondragon races
..
similar to humans in their expression of emotion

More of that on 10/11. Dragons may prefer their own kind as mates when they become adults and have an implse to egg-lay, but aside from wanting to breed, based on everything I've seen it seems like they'd actually prefer humans to dragons as romantic partners.
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Re: Sea Titans

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Tor wrote:I do have a sneaking suspicion that there might be something somewhere about armor and sensing and stuff... blah.

On the issue of what dragons might do though, D&Gp9:
enjoy associating with other beings, particularly humans
..
develop their sense of ethic, loves, likes and dislikes from their association with other, nondragon races
..
similar to humans in their expression of emotion

More of that on 10/11. Dragons may prefer their own kind as mates when they become adults and have an implse to egg-lay, but aside from wanting to breed, based on everything I've seen it seems like they'd actually prefer humans to dragons as romantic partners.

Fair enough. It's been so long since I've delved back into Rifts I've forgotten which books have/say what about most things. Anyway my initial point was that Sea Titans and New Navy sailors, in general, aren't that lascivious. Or at least no more so than the average person and that the oceans and land masses of Rifts Earth have very few safe areas where the New Navy can actually make port at so the likelihood of a Sea Titan or any other sailor making a booty call at some random port outside of New Navy territory is essentially nil.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Tor »

I'm only thinking of their impulses in human terms...

How a human would feel if they were MDC beings with supernatural strength and super-healing, immortal, immune to disease...

I'd feel hella cocky. You know how insecurity and stuff can kill horniness? That would be much less of a problem for them compared to other humans.

Think of how terrifying Rifts Earth is. I'd want to be in MDC Armor all the time. It'd be scary for SDC humans to remove that stuff. Only Sea Titans could feel confident out of that unless in a super secure area.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by keir451 »

Tor wrote:I'm only thinking of their impulses in human terms...

How a human would feel if they were MDC beings with supernatural strength and super-healing, immortal, immune to disease...

I'd feel hella cocky. You know how insecurity and stuff can kill horniness? That would be much less of a problem for them compared to other humans.

Think of how terrifying Rifts Earth is. I'd want to be in MDC Armor all the time. It'd be scary for SDC humans to remove that stuff. Only Sea Titans could feel confident out of that unless in a super secure area.

They're born and grow up SDC and even if they're MDC, getting shot with MD weapons HURTS! So I'd expect even Sea Titans wear armor whenever they can. As for sex, unless you're a total player, most people confine themselves to a single, dedicated partner whenever they can especially if your daily life is very dangerous. You want that feeling of something secure to come home to. It's part of the reason we veterans went to fight in the first place, we had something to protect, I don't see that changing by the time of Rifts, of anything that urge/desire would be even stronger.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Tor »

Growing up SDC would only make you appreciate your super-status even more.

So what if it hurts? Overcoming pain is manly! It's stupid for humans to embrace pain as it leads to self-destruction, but Sea Titans can bounce back so rapidly that they could cognitively embrace pain much easier.

What most people do today shouldn't lead us to assumptions about what predominated in the golden age, apocalypse, or post-apocalypse.

If you like the feeling of something secure to come home to, then having a girl in every port allows you to come to many homes more often.

Polyamory doesn't mean you don't have stuff to protect, if anything you'd have even more girls to protect. You'd want to protect all kinds of cities with your progeny, not just a single one.
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Re: Sea Titans

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keir451 wrote:As for sex, unless you're a total player, most people confine themselves to a single, dedicated partner whenever they can especially if your daily life is very dangerous.


Conversely, you have a lot of people who seek physical solace in times of danger. "It's not cheating when it's on deployment" isn't a phrase that sprung up from nowhere, after all.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by keir451 »

Tor wrote:Growing up SDC would only make you appreciate your super-status even more.[/quoute]
According to the description it helps remind the Sea Titans that they come from humble origins and helps them to continually relate to those who are not MDC.
Tor wrote:So what if it hurts? Overcoming pain is manly! It's stupid for humans to embrace pain as it leads to self-destruction, but Sea Titans can bounce back so rapidly that they could cognitively embrace pain much easier.

That concept really only applies to overcoming pain from a workout or training session, and really isn't "manly" at all, it's just being willing to push past your limits to achieve a goal. Even if you regenerate you're still going to be in a lot of pain as your body regenerates the muscles and nerve endings. Also even if you can regenrate that's time that you're not able to do much of anything as your body doesn't heal overnight, so I don't see Sea Titans doing stupid heroics such as rushing a guy firing a particle beam rifle or plasma rifle unless they have no other choice.
Tor wrote:What most people do today shouldn't lead us to assumptions about what predominated in the golden age, apocalypse, or post-apocalypse.

It's not an assumption, it is based of of the studied actions of people down through the centuries and today. People demonstrate by certain reliable actions that can, generally, be predicted. It is also based off of the standards of the New Navy, which despite the addition of "New" is STILL the NAVY, there are certainrules we follow and that we are expected to adhere to and barring minor changes due to the advent of genetics and slightly longer lifespans and new medical technologies thos core standards aren't going to change. Any Navyperson from pre-Rifts time would easily recognize the New Navy and fit right in, also the people that support the New Navy identify as AMERICAN and hold themselves to AMERICAN values which, again, areunlikely to chage in any truly significant way by 2098.
Tor wrote:If you like the feeling of something secure to come home to, then having a girl in every port allows you to come to many homes more often.

The concept of "a girl in every port" is a misconception, the sailors thatI knew typically had ONE girl in ONE port, their home port, and only a very few engaged in seeing prostitutes in those countires that had them available. Also WHAT PORTS? Unlike today where there are many ports that the U.S. Navy can visit during time at sea, the New Navy is VERY limited. I, personally was stationed in Sasebo, Japan and visited Yokosuka, Okinawa, Korea, Thailand, Phillippines, Singaore, Australia, Guam, Hong Kong, and a few other places. In Rifts none of these places exist as potential ports anymore, AT ALL. The New Navy has two cities that they can port at, and Tritonia, so their sailors can only have "a girl" in one or two of those ports AT MOST.
Tor wrote:Polyamory doesn't mean you don't have stuff to protect, if anything you'd have even more girls to protect. You'd want to protect all kinds of cities with your progeny, not just a single one.

Technically true, but again, while it is a game, the actual number of people/groups that practice polygyny, polygamy, or polyandry in the U.S. are few in number comapred to those subscribe to the more "traditional" way.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by keir451 »

Mark Hall wrote:
keir451 wrote:As for sex, unless you're a total player, most people confine themselves to a single, dedicated partner whenever they can especially if your daily life is very dangerous.


Conversely, you have a lot of people who seek physical solace in times of danger. "It's not cheating when it's on deployment" isn't a phrase that sprung up from nowhere, after all.

Said perhaps the stupidest seaman ever. "It's not cheating when it's on deployment" is a major misconception. First of all deployments are hard enough on couples and families as it is, especially when your spouse is gone for three years or more at a time, adding in a trip to the local whorehouse just makes it worse.
The New Navy runs a "Junior Navy" program so the average kid is instilled with the virtues the Navy (and the military as whole) would find desirable, which would be; Honor, Loyalty, Honesty, Dedication and Self-Sacrifice (along with obeying orders and how to properly maintai your bunk, etc.). Even if a person turns out to be a total rebel these values would remain a part of them for all their life. The New Navy is functionally a military dictatorship controlled by Fleet Command, so for the past 200 yrs. the Admiralty of Fleet Command have been able to dictate social policy as they see fit, especially considering the fact that there's no more private groups interfereing with the Navy's mission. Even the cities founded by Navy civilians and ex-Navy personnel are dedicated to providing support for the New Navy, plus you wouldn't want to risk losing a memeber of your crew to a knife in the back during a stupid barfight in some foreign country (something the U.S. Navy HATES with a passion) so I can easily see that shore leave/liberty would be severely restricted during operational deployments until they get back to their home ports.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Library Ogre »

keir451 wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
keir451 wrote:As for sex, unless you're a total player, most people confine themselves to a single, dedicated partner whenever they can especially if your daily life is very dangerous.


Conversely, you have a lot of people who seek physical solace in times of danger. "It's not cheating when it's on deployment" isn't a phrase that sprung up from nowhere, after all.

Said perhaps the stupidest seaman ever. "It's not cheating when it's on deployment" is a major misconception. First of all deployments are hard enough on couples and families as it is, especially when your spouse is gone for three years or more at a time, adding in a trip to the local whorehouse just makes it worse.


I've known a number of couples who had such arrangements in the military, Keir.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Nightmask »

keir451 wrote:
Tor wrote:Growing up SDC would only make you appreciate your super-status even more.[/quoute]
According to the description it helps remind the Sea Titans that they come from humble origins and helps them to continually relate to those who are not MDC.
Tor wrote:So what if it hurts? Overcoming pain is manly! It's stupid for humans to embrace pain as it leads to self-destruction, but Sea Titans can bounce back so rapidly that they could cognitively embrace pain much easier.

That concept really only applies to overcoming pain from a workout or training session, and really isn't "manly" at all, it's just being willing to push past your limits to achieve a goal. Even if you regenerate you're still going to be in a lot of pain as your body regenerates the muscles and nerve endings. Also even if you can regenrate that's time that you're not able to do much of anything as your body doesn't heal overnight, so I don't see Sea Titans doing stupid heroics such as rushing a guy firing a particle beam rifle or plasma rifle unless they have no other choice.
Tor wrote:What most people do today shouldn't lead us to assumptions about what predominated in the golden age, apocalypse, or post-apocalypse.

It's not an assumption, it is based of of the studied actions of people down through the centuries and today. People demonstrate by certain reliable actions that can, generally, be predicted. It is also based off of the standards of the New Navy, which despite the addition of "New" is STILL the NAVY, there are certainrules we follow and that we are expected to adhere to and barring minor changes due to the advent of genetics and slightly longer lifespans and new medical technologies thos core standards aren't going to change. Any Navyperson from pre-Rifts time would easily recognize the New Navy and fit right in, also the people that support the New Navy identify as AMERICAN and hold themselves to AMERICAN values which, again, areunlikely to chage in any truly significant way by 2098.
Tor wrote:If you like the feeling of something secure to come home to, then having a girl in every port allows you to come to many homes more often.

The concept of "a girl in every port" is a misconception, the sailors thatI knew typically had ONE girl in ONE port, their home port, and only a very few engaged in seeing prostitutes in those countires that had them available. Also WHAT PORTS? Unlike today where there are many ports that the U.S. Navy can visit during time at sea, the New Navy is VERY limited. I, personally was stationed in Sasebo, Japan and visited Yokosuka, Okinawa, Korea, Thailand, Phillippines, Singaore, Australia, Guam, Hong Kong, and a few other places. In Rifts none of these places exist as potential ports anymore, AT ALL. The New Navy has two cities that they can port at, and Tritonia, so their sailors can only have "a girl" in one or two of those ports AT MOST.
Tor wrote:Polyamory doesn't mean you don't have stuff to protect, if anything you'd have even more girls to protect. You'd want to protect all kinds of cities with your progeny, not just a single one.


Technically true, but again, while it is a game, the actual number of people/groups that practice polygyny, polygamy, or polyandry in the U.S. are few in number comapred to those subscribe to the more "traditional" way.


Except such things are more common in what we consider more primitive societies, due to the issues of trying to keep the population up and see to the proper care of the children, so it wouldn't be that odd for a spike in marriages/relationships with more than two partners and it becoming a more societal norm (Check out the Courtship Rites novel, the standard was plural marriage, with the 'ideal' marriage having 3 males and 3 females).
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

actually the better question would be "what ports?"

the New navy doesn't put in many places.
New navy bases.
Tritonia.
maybe an underseas colony or two if you go in for those in your game world.
Maybe-Maybe a town or two on the american west coast. (since we know they sold some tanks to kingdoms there)
but they don;t stop much of anywhere else. not in eastern north america. not in central america. no evidence of them stopping in south america. or euope. or africa. or asia.
in fact we have evidence that they are actively trying to hide their existence from the nations in those areas.

so even if you did have a group of Sea Titans with a girlfriend in every port, you still wouldn't see the kind of "abandoned" kids so many here in the thread have proposed.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by keir451 »

Mark Hall wrote:
keir451 wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
keir451 wrote:As for sex, unless you're a total player, most people confine themselves to a single, dedicated partner whenever they can especially if your daily life is very dangerous.


Conversely, you have a lot of people who seek physical solace in times of danger. "It's not cheating when it's on deployment" isn't a phrase that sprung up from nowhere, after all.

Said perhaps the stupidest seaman ever. "It's not cheating when it's on deployment" is a major misconception. First of all deployments are hard enough on couples and families as it is, especially when your spouse is gone for three years or more at a time, adding in a trip to the local whorehouse just makes it worse.


I've known a number of couples who had such arrangements in the military, Keir.

Interesting. I'd not heard of that.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by keir451 »

Nightmask wrote:
keir451 wrote:
Tor wrote:Growing up SDC would only make you appreciate your super-status even more.[/quoute]
According to the description it helps remind the Sea Titans that they come from humble origins and helps them to continually relate to those who are not MDC.
Tor wrote:So what if it hurts? Overcoming pain is manly! It's stupid for humans to embrace pain as it leads to self-destruction, but Sea Titans can bounce back so rapidly that they could cognitively embrace pain much easier.

That concept really only applies to overcoming pain from a workout or training session, and really isn't "manly" at all, it's just being willing to push past your limits to achieve a goal. Even if you regenerate you're still going to be in a lot of pain as your body regenerates the muscles and nerve endings. Also even if you can regenrate that's time that you're not able to do much of anything as your body doesn't heal overnight, so I don't see Sea Titans doing stupid heroics such as rushing a guy firing a particle beam rifle or plasma rifle unless they have no other choice.
Tor wrote:What most people do today shouldn't lead us to assumptions about what predominated in the golden age, apocalypse, or post-apocalypse.

It's not an assumption, it is based of of the studied actions of people down through the centuries and today. People demonstrate by certain reliable actions that can, generally, be predicted. It is also based off of the standards of the New Navy, which despite the addition of "New" is STILL the NAVY, there are certainrules we follow and that we are expected to adhere to and barring minor changes due to the advent of genetics and slightly longer lifespans and new medical technologies thos core standards aren't going to change. Any Navyperson from pre-Rifts time would easily recognize the New Navy and fit right in, also the people that support the New Navy identify as AMERICAN and hold themselves to AMERICAN values which, again, areunlikely to chage in any truly significant way by 2098.
Tor wrote:If you like the feeling of something secure to come home to, then having a girl in every port allows you to come to many homes more often.

The concept of "a girl in every port" is a misconception, the sailors thatI knew typically had ONE girl in ONE port, their home port, and only a very few engaged in seeing prostitutes in those countires that had them available. Also WHAT PORTS? Unlike today where there are many ports that the U.S. Navy can visit during time at sea, the New Navy is VERY limited. I, personally was stationed in Sasebo, Japan and visited Yokosuka, Okinawa, Korea, Thailand, Phillippines, Singaore, Australia, Guam, Hong Kong, and a few other places. In Rifts none of these places exist as potential ports anymore, AT ALL. The New Navy has two cities that they can port at, and Tritonia, so their sailors can only have "a girl" in one or two of those ports AT MOST.
Tor wrote:Polyamory doesn't mean you don't have stuff to protect, if anything you'd have even more girls to protect. You'd want to protect all kinds of cities with your progeny, not just a single one.


Technically true, but again, while it is a game, the actual number of people/groups that practice polygyny, polygamy, or polyandry in the U.S. are few in number comapred to those subscribe to the more "traditional" way.


Except such things are more common in what we consider more primitive societies, due to the issues of trying to keep the population up and see to the proper care of the children, so it wouldn't be that odd for a spike in marriages/relationships with more than two partners and it becoming a more societal norm (Check out the Courtship Rites novel, the standard was plural marriage, with the 'ideal' marriage having 3 males and 3 females).

Absolutely! I took a Cultural Anthropology class a couple of semesters back that detailed much the same thing. I actually agree that polygamy might become more common after the coming of the Rifts, but when I look at the New Navy, I ask myself "Would they do that?" and the answer (to me) is possibly not. Sure that leaves plenty of wiggle room, but even if they do allow polygamy these sailors really DON'T have a lot of places they can get there rocks off at except at their home ports.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by keir451 »

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually the better question would be "what ports?"

the New navy doesn't put in many places.
New navy bases.
Tritonia.
maybe an underseas colony or two if you go in for those in your game world.
Maybe-Maybe a town or two on the american west coast. (since we know they sold some tanks to kingdoms there)
but they don;t stop much of anywhere else. not in eastern north america. not in central america. no evidence of them stopping in south america. or euope. or africa. or asia.
in fact we have evidence that they are actively trying to hide their existence from the nations in those areas.

so even if you did have a group of Sea Titans with a girlfriend in every port, you still wouldn't see the kind of "abandoned" kids so many here in the thread have proposed.

That's a fact, jack! :lol:
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Library Ogre »

glitterboy2098 wrote:so even if you did have a group of Sea Titans with a girlfriend in every port, you still wouldn't see the kind of "abandoned" kids so many here in the thread have proposed.


On the other hand, it doesn't take very many to start making an issue of it. As a species, Sea Titans are what, 300-400 years old? All it takes is a couple getting out "in the wild", as it were, to start spreading Sea Titan genetics. Even if we assume one "rogue" per generation, each with one kid per generation, you're still looking at a substantial number.

Numbers:
Each generation is 20 years long; we will assume 300 years of Sea Titans. That gives us 15 generations. In the first generation, you have 1 rogue. In the second, you have a 2nd rogue, plus the original rogue, and the child of the rogue, giving you 3. Third generation, you have Those 3, their children (total 6), plus 1 more going rogue from the captive population, total 7. Fourth, you have 14 (the previous generation and their children) plus 1 from the captive. Fifth, 31 rogues. Sixth, 63.
7th: 127
8 255
9 511
10 1023
11 2047
12 4095
13 8191
14 16383
15 32767

By 300 years, you're looking at 32,767 worth of rogue (i.e. non-New Navy) Sea Titans, at a what I see as a pretty conservative expansion rate. Part of the reason for this is that the previous ones don't die. Those 32,767 people include the original rogue, who is still having their one kid every 20 years.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by keir451 »

Mark Hall wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:so even if you did have a group of Sea Titans with a girlfriend in every port, you still wouldn't see the kind of "abandoned" kids so many here in the thread have proposed.


On the other hand, it doesn't take very many to start making an issue of it. As a species, Sea Titans are what, 300-400 years old? All it takes is a couple getting out "in the wild", as it were, to start spreading Sea Titan genetics. Even if we assume one "rogue" per generation, each with one kid per generation, you're still looking at a substantial number.

Numbers:
Each generation is 20 years long; we will assume 300 years of Sea Titans. That gives us 15 generations. In the first generation, you have 1 rogue. In the second, you have a 2nd rogue, plus the original rogue, and the child of the rogue, giving you 3. Third generation, you have Those 3, their children (total 6), plus 1 more going rogue from the captive population, total 7. Fourth, you have 14 (the previous generation and their children) plus 1 from the captive. Fifth, 31 rogues. Sixth, 63.
7th: 127
8 255
9 511
10 1023
11 2047
12 4095
13 8191
14 16383
15 32767

By 300 years, you're looking at 32,767 worth of rogue (i.e. non-New Navy) Sea Titans, at a what I see as a pretty conservative expansion rate. Part of the reason for this is that the previous ones don't die. Those 32,767 people include the original rogue, who is still having their one kid every 20 years.

Yet despite that there only about 2,300 or so Sea Titans in existence. The extra three hundred odd are accounted for in the 12-15% that either don't join or have left the New Navy, the other 2,000 are either ALL in the New Navy as either SEALs, Marines (the book says 75%) or some other rating, "and stay there for centuries" or never join. Of course you're assuming that Sea Titans choose to reproduce at the same rate as regular humans do, considering a Sea Titan would never suffer from infertility or menopause, so they could choose to wait 100 yrs. or more before having a kid, either that or their combat mortality rate is fracking HUGE. It was stated that during at least one deployment the Ticonderoga and its fleet suffered deaths and injured of 1/5 of its total personnel and quite often fights come down to hand to hand combat so there are no "rear echelons" in the New Navy, meaning even the corpsman and other, current day, non frontline ratings, such as engineering or dental, are now considered frontline combat units as well.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

also worth pointing out that because of their enhanced strength, sea tiotan/human pairings run into a bit of the "man of steel, woman of tissue paper' problem..
in the throws of passion, controlling ones strength could get trickier. the sea titans could very easily seriously injure their partners. which could reduce the odds of a successful pregnancy in some cases.

so it may well be that sea titans mainly pair with sea titans, or opt for artificial means of procreation. both of which would reduce their reproductive rate.

and the fact they can live so long and don't age would also mean that odds are many of them would end up putting off having kids until much later in life. it's clear the NN doesn't have any kind of eugenics program to encourage sea titan population growth either.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by keir451 »

glitterboy2098 wrote:also worth pointing out that because of their enhanced strength, sea tiotan/human pairings run into a bit of the "man of steel, woman of tissue paper' problem..
in the throws of passion, controlling ones strength could get trickier. the sea titans could very easily seriously injure their partners. which could reduce the odds of a successful pregnancy in some cases.

so it may well be that sea titans mainly pair with sea titans, or opt for artificial means of procreation. both of which would reduce their reproductive rate.

and the fact they can live so long and don't age would also mean that odds are many of them would end up putting off having kids until much later in life. it's clear the NN doesn't have any kind of eugenics program to encourage sea titan population growth either.

I'm not sure I agree with the "man of steel" concept, I rather think that Sea Titans have as much or perhaps better control over their reactions due to years of physical training. However I do agree that Sea Titans may elect to wait until later in their careers to have kids because of their longevity. The other possibility, that I mentioned earlier, is that Sea Titans, due to their abilities, may suffer greater mortality rates by being in front line positions where they are more likely to die in combat.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Nightmask »

glitterboy2098 wrote:also worth pointing out that because of their enhanced strength, sea tiotan/human pairings run into a bit of the "man of steel, woman of tissue paper' problem..
in the throws of passion, controlling ones strength could get trickier. the sea titans could very easily seriously injure their partners. which could reduce the odds of a successful pregnancy in some cases.

so it may well be that sea titans mainly pair with sea titans, or opt for artificial means of procreation. both of which would reduce their reproductive rate.

and the fact they can live so long and don't age would also mean that odds are many of them would end up putting off having kids until much later in life. it's clear the NN doesn't have any kind of eugenics program to encourage sea titan population growth either.


Except that there's no reason to believe anything of the sort. Being strong, whether at supernatural levels or not, doesn't come with it some inherent risk of injuring your partner because in spite of how you manage not to run around breaking everything around you you somehow can't seem to manage to do it while sexually excited. Everywhere else while suffering way worse excitement and adrenaline rush but bizarrely not while having sex.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by eliakon »

Nightmask wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:also worth pointing out that because of their enhanced strength, sea tiotan/human pairings run into a bit of the "man of steel, woman of tissue paper' problem..
in the throws of passion, controlling ones strength could get trickier. the sea titans could very easily seriously injure their partners. which could reduce the odds of a successful pregnancy in some cases.

so it may well be that sea titans mainly pair with sea titans, or opt for artificial means of procreation. both of which would reduce their reproductive rate.

and the fact they can live so long and don't age would also mean that odds are many of them would end up putting off having kids until much later in life. it's clear the NN doesn't have any kind of eugenics program to encourage sea titan population growth either.


Except that there's no reason to believe anything of the sort. Being strong, whether at supernatural levels or not, doesn't come with it some inherent risk of injuring your partner because in spite of how you manage not to run around breaking everything around you you somehow can't seem to manage to do it while sexually excited. Everywhere else while suffering way worse excitement and adrenaline rush but bizarrely not while having sex.


Dunno...that would require the assumption that no one actually does damage things while excited....
Which I don't really think is founded. I thought there was mention for instance of how the dragon hatchling can harm things on accident, or how juicers can 'slip up'...
I mean sure...you can just assume that no one has any problems what so ever and its all gravy if you want. But I don't think that it is one that is 'the default' and that one would only not be in full control during sex. I would think that you would be not in full control at any time your well not in full control.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Nightmask »

eliakon wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:also worth pointing out that because of their enhanced strength, sea tiotan/human pairings run into a bit of the "man of steel, woman of tissue paper' problem..
in the throws of passion, controlling ones strength could get trickier. the sea titans could very easily seriously injure their partners. which could reduce the odds of a successful pregnancy in some cases.

so it may well be that sea titans mainly pair with sea titans, or opt for artificial means of procreation. both of which would reduce their reproductive rate.

and the fact they can live so long and don't age would also mean that odds are many of them would end up putting off having kids until much later in life. it's clear the NN doesn't have any kind of eugenics program to encourage sea titan population growth either.


Except that there's no reason to believe anything of the sort. Being strong, whether at supernatural levels or not, doesn't come with it some inherent risk of injuring your partner because in spite of how you manage not to run around breaking everything around you you somehow can't seem to manage to do it while sexually excited. Everywhere else while suffering way worse excitement and adrenaline rush but bizarrely not while having sex.


Dunno...that would require the assumption that no one actually does damage things while excited....
Which I don't really think is founded. I thought there was mention for instance of how the dragon hatchling can harm things on accident, or how juicers can 'slip up'...
I mean sure...you can just assume that no one has any problems what so ever and its all gravy if you want. But I don't think that it is one that is 'the default' and that one would only not be in full control during sex. I would think that you would be not in full control at any time your well not in full control.


Evolution tends to weed out the genes of those who end up killing their partners before they produce their offspring, and again there's no reason to think a Sea Titan has any less control over their strength than anyone else when it comes to sex just as we don't see anything that suggests any other super-strong human simply because they're super-strong being potentially lethal to their sexual partners.
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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by eliakon »

Nightmask wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:also worth pointing out that because of their enhanced strength, sea tiotan/human pairings run into a bit of the "man of steel, woman of tissue paper' problem..
in the throws of passion, controlling ones strength could get trickier. the sea titans could very easily seriously injure their partners. which could reduce the odds of a successful pregnancy in some cases.

so it may well be that sea titans mainly pair with sea titans, or opt for artificial means of procreation. both of which would reduce their reproductive rate.

and the fact they can live so long and don't age would also mean that odds are many of them would end up putting off having kids until much later in life. it's clear the NN doesn't have any kind of eugenics program to encourage sea titan population growth either.


Except that there's no reason to believe anything of the sort. Being strong, whether at supernatural levels or not, doesn't come with it some inherent risk of injuring your partner because in spite of how you manage not to run around breaking everything around you you somehow can't seem to manage to do it while sexually excited. Everywhere else while suffering way worse excitement and adrenaline rush but bizarrely not while having sex.


Dunno...that would require the assumption that no one actually does damage things while excited....
Which I don't really think is founded. I thought there was mention for instance of how the dragon hatchling can harm things on accident, or how juicers can 'slip up'...
I mean sure...you can just assume that no one has any problems what so ever and its all gravy if you want. But I don't think that it is one that is 'the default' and that one would only not be in full control during sex. I would think that you would be not in full control at any time your well not in full control.


Evolution tends to weed out the genes of those who end up killing their partners before they produce their offspring, and again there's no reason to think a Sea Titan has any less control over their strength than anyone else when it comes to sex just as we don't see anything that suggests any other super-strong human simply because they're super-strong being potentially lethal to their sexual partners.

Or that we just see the children of the survivors of parings.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by keir451 »

eliakon wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:also worth pointing out that because of their enhanced strength, sea tiotan/human pairings run into a bit of the "man of steel, woman of tissue paper' problem..
in the throws of passion, controlling ones strength could get trickier. the sea titans could very easily seriously injure their partners. which could reduce the odds of a successful pregnancy in some cases.

so it may well be that sea titans mainly pair with sea titans, or opt for artificial means of procreation. both of which would reduce their reproductive rate.

and the fact they can live so long and don't age would also mean that odds are many of them would end up putting off having kids until much later in life. it's clear the NN doesn't have any kind of eugenics program to encourage sea titan population growth either.


Except that there's no reason to believe anything of the sort. Being strong, whether at supernatural levels or not, doesn't come with it some inherent risk of injuring your partner because in spite of how you manage not to run around breaking everything around you you somehow can't seem to manage to do it while sexually excited. Everywhere else while suffering way worse excitement and adrenaline rush but bizarrely not while having sex.


Dunno...that would require the assumption that no one actually does damage things while excited....
Which I don't really think is founded. I thought there was mention for instance of how the dragon hatchling can harm things on accident, or how juicers can 'slip up'...
I mean sure...you can just assume that no one has any problems what so ever and its all gravy if you want. But I don't think that it is one that is 'the default' and that one would only not be in full control during sex. I would think that you would be not in full control at any time your well not in full control.


Evolution tends to weed out the genes of those who end up killing their partners before they produce their offspring, and again there's no reason to think a Sea Titan has any less control over their strength than anyone else when it comes to sex just as we don't see anything that suggests any other super-strong human simply because they're super-strong being potentially lethal to their sexual partners.

Or that we just see the children of the survivors of parings.
Evolution only applies to situations that are not guided. If, hypothetically a situation kills 999 out of 1000 people that engage in it then even if the .1% have an evolutionary advantage they may not show up if the society represses the trait due to a cultural revulsion to the cost.

Yet the book states that Sea Titans are seen as desirable mates, so it would appear that Sea Titans have no problems with having children with non-MDC women, so much so that they are sought after by normal women/men.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Nightmask wrote:Evolution tends to weed out the genes of those who end up killing their partners before they produce their offspring, and again there's no reason to think a Sea Titan has any less control over their strength than anyone else when it comes to sex just as we don't see anything that suggests any other super-strong human simply because they're super-strong being potentially lethal to their sexual partners.


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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Mark Hall wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Evolution tends to weed out the genes of those who end up killing their partners before they produce their offspring, and again there's no reason to think a Sea Titan has any less control over their strength than anyone else when it comes to sex just as we don't see anything that suggests any other super-strong human simply because they're super-strong being potentially lethal to their sexual partners.


You've never had a partner bite or claw you during sex without realizing they were doing so?


the fact that the culmination of the sex act is literally a set of involuntary muscle movements.. usually body wide, suggests that complete control is going to be impossible.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Library Ogre »

glitterboy2098 wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Evolution tends to weed out the genes of those who end up killing their partners before they produce their offspring, and again there's no reason to think a Sea Titan has any less control over their strength than anyone else when it comes to sex just as we don't see anything that suggests any other super-strong human simply because they're super-strong being potentially lethal to their sexual partners.


You've never had a partner bite or claw you during sex without realizing they were doing so?


the fact that the culmination of the sex act is literally a set of involuntary muscle movements.. usually body wide, suggests that complete control is going to be impossible.


I mean, all sorts of things happen, to say nothing of ejaculate emerging at speed.

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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Nightmask »

glitterboy2098 wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Evolution tends to weed out the genes of those who end up killing their partners before they produce their offspring, and again there's no reason to think a Sea Titan has any less control over their strength than anyone else when it comes to sex just as we don't see anything that suggests any other super-strong human simply because they're super-strong being potentially lethal to their sexual partners.


You've never had a partner bite or claw you during sex without realizing they were doing so?


the fact that the culmination of the sex act is literally a set of involuntary muscle movements.. usually body wide, suggests that complete control is going to be impossible.


The fact is what parts of sex that are involuntary are scaled to where they aren't going to injure or kill the partner since again you don't pass on your genes if you kill your partner and you certainly aren't going to be exerting supernatural strength during sex unless you actually intend to.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Nightmask »

Mark Hall wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Evolution tends to weed out the genes of those who end up killing their partners before they produce their offspring, and again there's no reason to think a Sea Titan has any less control over their strength than anyone else when it comes to sex just as we don't see anything that suggests any other super-strong human simply because they're super-strong being potentially lethal to their sexual partners.


You've never had a partner bite or claw you during sex without realizing they were doing so?


the fact that the culmination of the sex act is literally a set of involuntary muscle movements.. usually body wide, suggests that complete control is going to be impossible.


I mean, all sorts of things happen, to say nothing of ejaculate emerging at speed.

"Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" isn't just a saying; it refers to an actual essay.


That carries an underlying false assumption that ALL the muscles are not just super-strong but are actually causing all muscular functions to operate at absurdly enhanced levels. For example, the involuntary muscles that deal with breathing, going by that premise then they should also be doing their work at enhanced levels, meaning every breathe would be a lung-exploding gasp but for the enhanced tissues and every exhale would be a massive sharp emptying of the lungs every time making it impossible to speak and yet that's clearly not the case. Obviously they aren't using any enhanced strength they might have as the individuals in question aren't breathing any differently than anyone else. So gaining super-strength doesn't mean all those other muscles get enhanced to uncontrollable levels as is being suggested, and as has been pointed out since they're considered favored mates the Sea Titans clearly are no more dangerous to their partners than any normal, SDC/HP human being when it comes to sex.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Nightmask »

Mark Hall wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Evolution tends to weed out the genes of those who end up killing their partners before they produce their offspring, and again there's no reason to think a Sea Titan has any less control over their strength than anyone else when it comes to sex just as we don't see anything that suggests any other super-strong human simply because they're super-strong being potentially lethal to their sexual partners.


You've never had a partner bite or claw you during sex without realizing they were doing so?


Big difference between something like that and someone breaking bones or crushing their partner to death because 'well he's so strong he can't keep himself from doing so'.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by eliakon »

Nightmask wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Evolution tends to weed out the genes of those who end up killing their partners before they produce their offspring, and again there's no reason to think a Sea Titan has any less control over their strength than anyone else when it comes to sex just as we don't see anything that suggests any other super-strong human simply because they're super-strong being potentially lethal to their sexual partners.


You've never had a partner bite or claw you during sex without realizing they were doing so?


Big difference between something like that and someone breaking bones or crushing their partner to death because 'well he's so strong he can't keep himself from doing so'.

well if your bite does MD that's sort of 'oops, he/she is dead'.....which is what that whole 'supernatural strength thing does'.....
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Nightmask »

eliakon wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Evolution tends to weed out the genes of those who end up killing their partners before they produce their offspring, and again there's no reason to think a Sea Titan has any less control over their strength than anyone else when it comes to sex just as we don't see anything that suggests any other super-strong human simply because they're super-strong being potentially lethal to their sexual partners.


You've never had a partner bite or claw you during sex without realizing they were doing so?


Big difference between something like that and someone breaking bones or crushing their partner to death because 'well he's so strong he can't keep himself from doing so'.


well if your bite does MD that's sort of 'oops, he/she is dead'.....which is what that whole 'supernatural strength thing does'.....


Haven't seen anything say that supernatural creatures have a supernatural mega-damage dealing bite, except in explicit notes on a few creatures which again NOTHING suggests or implies sex would cause any of them to inflict fatal bite damage on their partner due to total inability to control their strength. It would certainly be ridiculous to suggest a Sea Titan's bite would inflict fatal mega-damage to his SDC partner. Seriously, do you regularly have a problem with injuring your partners during sex because you can't control your strength? If not why do you think it would be a problem for anyone else? Because probably the only physical responses that are truly not in your control is what happens in one tiny portion of the body during the climax and there's ZERO reason to think those muscles would be firing off fatal shots or would be capable of it.
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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by eliakon »

Nightmask wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Evolution tends to weed out the genes of those who end up killing their partners before they produce their offspring, and again there's no reason to think a Sea Titan has any less control over their strength than anyone else when it comes to sex just as we don't see anything that suggests any other super-strong human simply because they're super-strong being potentially lethal to their sexual partners.


You've never had a partner bite or claw you during sex without realizing they were doing so?


Big difference between something like that and someone breaking bones or crushing their partner to death because 'well he's so strong he can't keep himself from doing so'.


well if your bite does MD that's sort of 'oops, he/she is dead'.....which is what that whole 'supernatural strength thing does'.....


Haven't seen anything say that supernatural creatures have a supernatural mega-damage dealing bite, except in explicit notes on a few creatures which again NOTHING suggests or implies sex would cause any of them to inflict fatal bite damage on their partner due to total inability to control their strength. It would certainly be ridiculous to suggest a Sea Titan's bite would inflict fatal mega-damage to his SDC partner. Seriously, do you regularly have a problem with injuring your partners during sex because you can't control your strength? If not why do you think it would be a problem for anyone else? Because probably the only physical responses that are truly not in your control is what happens in one tiny portion of the body during the climax and there's ZERO reason to think those muscles would be firing off fatal shots or would be capable of it.

Since bite damage is based off of your PS....yeah it should. And its not just about Sea Titans here. Its about the whole assumption that Super Strength is perfect and has no drawbacks what so ever and only comes out when you want to hit things and then only with just as much strength as you want to use... THAT to me is the unrealistic assumption.
Thinking that people that crush tanks with their bare hands have no problems at all delicately picking up eggshells to me seems silly and unrealistic.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Nightmask »

eliakon wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:You've never had a partner bite or claw you during sex without realizing they were doing so?


Big difference between something like that and someone breaking bones or crushing their partner to death because 'well he's so strong he can't keep himself from doing so'.


well if your bite does MD that's sort of 'oops, he/she is dead'.....which is what that whole 'supernatural strength thing does'.....


Haven't seen anything say that supernatural creatures have a supernatural mega-damage dealing bite, except in explicit notes on a few creatures which again NOTHING suggests or implies sex would cause any of them to inflict fatal bite damage on their partner due to total inability to control their strength. It would certainly be ridiculous to suggest a Sea Titan's bite would inflict fatal mega-damage to his SDC partner. Seriously, do you regularly have a problem with injuring your partners during sex because you can't control your strength? If not why do you think it would be a problem for anyone else? Because probably the only physical responses that are truly not in your control is what happens in one tiny portion of the body during the climax and there's ZERO reason to think those muscles would be firing off fatal shots or would be capable of it.


Since bite damage is based off of your PS....yeah it should. And its not just about Sea Titans here. Its about the whole assumption that Super Strength is perfect and has no drawbacks what so ever and only comes out when you want to hit things and then only with just as much strength as you want to use... THAT to me is the unrealistic assumption.
Thinking that people that crush tanks with their bare hands have no problems at all delicately picking up eggshells to me seems silly and unrealistic.


So you actually think a human being, because he had super-strength, should bite for fatal damage? That actually makes sense to you? Because that's ridiculous. No matter what kind of biting pressure you had the worst you could do is bite off some flesh from someone you certainly aren't going to go and kill your partner because you accidentally bit her ear or shoulder too hard. If the game does actually base human bite damage off your PS that's quite messed up as well because the PS stat is specifically dealing with the muscles that deal with lifting and carrying things NOT the other muscles of the body like the jaw muscles that are quite unrelated to the those.

Reality is often unrealistic (or at least people hold unrealistic notions as to what constitutes reality) but you're being quite unrealistic there, thinking that because they're strong that they shouldn't be able to control it at all and be incapable of having enough control to handle breakable items even though the level of control required for YOU to handle that egg without crushing it is no more difficult than for a Sea Titan to do the same thing. Nowhere is there anything to even remotely suggest something as unrealistic as super-strong characters being unable to control their strength and be incapable of handling delicate things because 'oh he's too strong you can't really control that kind of strength'.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Library Ogre »

The more I think about it, the more I think the "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" argument, while plausible, doesn't match the text. After all, Sea Titans are sought-after partners; that's hardly going to happen if they break pelvises.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Nightmask »

Mark Hall wrote:The more I think about it, the more I think the "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" argument, while plausible, doesn't match the text. After all, Sea Titans are sought-after partners; that's hardly going to happen if they break pelvises.


I think about the only plausible concern for that is when the fetus ends up developing superhuman abilities before even being born thus risking killing the mother when doing things like kicking (which happened in one of those Elseworld futures for Superman to Lois during the Armageddon crossover event, somehow in spite of being a fetus and incapable of receiving sunlight in Lois's womb it exhibited super-human strength and killed her while kicking), but we already know that Sea Titans are completely normal (albeit healthier) humans up until around puberty so no risk of that happening.

All the rest really isn't plausible, because you don't see ALL the muscles behaving in a strange over-powered fashion, and it's more than a bit implausible to insist that somehow that superstrength is affecting all muscles EXCEPT those that would make it impossible to function normally so the character breathes normally, eats normally, etc and only runs into problems with the muscles behaving out of control when sex is involved. The person couldn't even manage normal facial expressions if all his muscles were ridiculously over-powered. Come to think of it if their heart is super-strong and engaging in super-strong muscle contractions you'd either die from a rupture somewhere when your blood vessels exploded or almost instantly bleed out from any cut as your heart pumped your blood out in a high-velocity spray.

Really there's just too much wrong with the idea for it to have merit other than as a disability someone acquired for some reason, like a brain injury or exposure to some strange substance (like Superman with Red Kryptonite, or when he was exposed to that Kryptonite X at the climax of the battle with the Cyborg Superman when it made him absorb and store too much energy so that he couldn't keep up with the increasing strength and started losing fine motor control over his various powers).
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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Nightmask wrote:All the rest really isn't plausible, because you don't see ALL the muscles behaving in a strange over-powered fashion, and it's more than a bit implausible to insist that somehow that superstrength is affecting all muscles EXCEPT those that would make it impossible to function normally so the character breathes normally, eats normally, etc and only runs into problems with the muscles behaving out of control when sex is involved.


See, I do think it is reasonable where Superman is involved. We know he's capable of exhaling with much greater force than he normally does. We know he accidentally leaves fingerprints in steel, or crushes concrete on accident, and does other feats of superhuman ability when he's not careful. It speaks to him having incredible control... when he is in control.

It doesn't work with Sea Titans because of other things written... namely, that they're desirable and sought-after sexual partners. But Superman, especially when Niven was writing, it remains plausible.

The person couldn't even manage normal facial expressions if all his muscles were ridiculously over-powered. Come to think of it if their heart is super-strong and engaging in super-strong muscle contractions you'd either die from a rupture somewhere when your blood vessels exploded or almost instantly bleed out from any cut as your heart pumped your blood out in a high-velocity spray.


These objections are ridiculous, especially since you're dealing with Kryptonian physiology on Kryptonian physiology. It's equivalent to an ant scientist exclaiming that you could never be six feet tall, because your exoskeleton wouldn't work and you'd never be able to breathe. Perhaps reasonable if dealing with an ant physiology, but when dealing with a kryptonian... a Kryptonian heart pumping against Kryptonian blood vessels, for example, that the heart is capable of extreme strength is irrelevant.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Nightmask »

Mark Hall wrote:
Nightmask wrote:All the rest really isn't plausible, because you don't see ALL the muscles behaving in a strange over-powered fashion, and it's more than a bit implausible to insist that somehow that superstrength is affecting all muscles EXCEPT those that would make it impossible to function normally so the character breathes normally, eats normally, etc and only runs into problems with the muscles behaving out of control when sex is involved.


See, I do think it is reasonable where Superman is involved. We know he's capable of exhaling with much greater force than he normally does. We know he accidentally leaves fingerprints in steel, or crushes concrete on accident, and does other feats of superhuman ability when he's not careful. It speaks to him having incredible control... when he is in control.

It doesn't work with Sea Titans because of other things written... namely, that they're desirable and sought-after sexual partners. But Superman, especially when Niven was writing, it remains plausible.


So you basically missed my response being a general commentary on I believe Eliakon's general insistence that super-strong people wouldn't be able to really control their strength for no other reason than 'well they're just too strong' and not on Superman in particular.

Mark Hall wrote:
Nightmask wrote:The person couldn't even manage normal facial expressions if all his muscles were ridiculously over-powered. Come to think of it if their heart is super-strong and engaging in super-strong muscle contractions you'd either die from a rupture somewhere when your blood vessels exploded or almost instantly bleed out from any cut as your heart pumped your blood out in a high-velocity spray.


These objections are ridiculous, especially since you're dealing with Kryptonian physiology on Kryptonian physiology. It's equivalent to an ant scientist exclaiming that you could never be six feet tall, because your exoskeleton wouldn't work and you'd never be able to breathe. Perhaps reasonable if dealing with an ant physiology, but when dealing with a kryptonian... a Kryptonian heart pumping against Kryptonian blood vessels, for example, that the heart is capable of extreme strength is irrelevant.


No they aren't ridiculous and again they're a commentary on the GENERAL claim that somehow all the muscles are overpowered and must be overpowered but somehow they aren't really except for those engaged in sexual responses when we know super-strength and the muscles involved in it have NOTHING to do with any of the other muscles in the body whether facial or sexual. There are a wide variety of muscles in the body and only a relative few devoted to lifting and carrying things, and of those they're completely under the control of the person so you aren't going to go hurting or killing your partner unless you're intentionally showing a disregard for her health.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Nightmask wrote:No they aren't ridiculous and again they're a commentary on the GENERAL claim that somehow all the muscles are overpowered and must be overpowered but somehow they aren't really except for those engaged in sexual responses when we know super-strength and the muscles involved in it have NOTHING to do with any of the other muscles in the body whether facial or sexual. There are a wide variety of muscles in the body and only a relative few devoted to lifting and carrying things, and of those they're completely under the control of the person so you aren't going to go hurting or killing your partner unless you're intentionally showing a disregard for her health.


And Superman still leaves fingerprints in steel. He can still blow with such force as to put out a large fire. There's no indication that his super-strength is limit to lifting and carrying muscles, nor that those somehow become inactivated when they're not being actively used for lifting and carrying.
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eliakon
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by eliakon »

I'm curious.....I must have missed the book that lists which muscles do and do not get enhanced when you get supernatural PS and PE. Can anyone tell me where it is?
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Re: Sea Titans

Unread post by Nightmask »

Mark Hall wrote:
Nightmask wrote:No they aren't ridiculous and again they're a commentary on the GENERAL claim that somehow all the muscles are overpowered and must be overpowered but somehow they aren't really except for those engaged in sexual responses when we know super-strength and the muscles involved in it have NOTHING to do with any of the other muscles in the body whether facial or sexual. There are a wide variety of muscles in the body and only a relative few devoted to lifting and carrying things, and of those they're completely under the control of the person so you aren't going to go hurting or killing your partner unless you're intentionally showing a disregard for her health.


And Superman still leaves fingerprints in steel. He can still blow with such force as to put out a large fire. There's no indication that his super-strength is limit to lifting and carrying muscles, nor that those somehow become inactivated when they're not being actively used for lifting and carrying.


Yes, he sometimes leaves fingerprints in steel, that kind of thing tends to happen when you're actively crushing it in your hands because it's an inanimate object you don't have to worry about damaging unlike a person. Meanwhile there's no indication that all of is muscles have super-strength or create dangerous situations since I should point out it would also mean he'd be destroying bathrooms anytime he went to use them going by your argument that all his muscles must be over-powered and not fully in his control (which is wrong, certain versions including the original Silver Age version explicitly have extreme control over their muscles and body's to the point of being able to control even the tiniest of muscles and even control involuntary functions like stopping their hearts).

Meanwhile again we're talking in general, and Palladium's setting in particular and nothing about supernatural strength in the game or exceptional strength in general is given to leave anyone with reason to think it applies to anything but things like lifting and carrying capacity and that everything else remains relatively normal.
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